Page 216 United States Department of Justice INTERVIEW OF: GHISLAINE MAXWELL DATE: July 25, 2025 APPEARANCES: For the United States: Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney General Diego Pestana, Acting Associate Deputy Attorney General Spencer Horn, FBI Special Agent Mark Beard, Deputy U.S. Marshal For Ghislaine Maxwell: David Markus Leah Saffian Melissa Madrigal

Page 217 1 I N T E R V I E W 2 *** 3 SPENCER HORN: Good morning. It is 4 Friday, July 25th, the time is 9:24 a.m. My name is 5 Spencer R. Horn. I'm the Assistant Special Agent in 6 Charge of FBI New York. And we are here for a 7 recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Good morning, Ms. Maxwell. 9 How are you? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Good morning. 11 TODD BLANCHE: Good. So the proffer 12 agreement we signed yesterday, I just -- there's a 13 place on it for us to all kind of initial. It's 14 exactly the same document and you'll see your 15 signature. If you can just initial right to the left 16 of -- right here. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Here? 18 TODD BLANCHE: Right there. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, it's okay. 20 TODD BLANCHE: And then Mr. Markus will -- 21 DAVID MARKUS: Yes. 22 TODD BLANCHE: -- initial as well. Thank 23 you. 24 And just to kind of -- before we get 25 going, I'll just say that exactly the same folks that

Page 218 1 were here when we met yesterday are here today. So 2 there's no -- I'm not going to do formal 3 introductions, because it's exactly the same group of 4 folks. 5 So we're continuing, Ms. Maxwell, our 6 discussion of yesterday. And the same -- the same 7 kind of rules apply. If you -- we'll take breaks, if 8 you need to talk to Mr. Markus or your lawyers, no -- 9 absolutely no problem. Just let me know. I'll try 10 to ask my questions in a coherent manner, but if 11 there's anything that I say that's confusing, 12 definitely interrupt me. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I will. Thank you. 14 TODD BLANCHE: So I think the easiest 15 thing to start with is, is there anything that we 16 talked about yesterday that -- we're going to go 17 through some more names. I think that we -- that's 18 one of the places that we -- that we interrupted, 19 just because there's a lot of names. 20 But aside from additional names, is there 21 anything that you wanted to kind of follow up on that 22 we talked about yesterday or anything that you 23 thought maybe you remember more of or not? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some more names did 25 come to me in the night, and I did have some

Page 219 1 additional memories just for clarity. I believe I 2 said that I couldn't think of anybody who I may have 3 asked from Mar-a-Lago, but then I realized that I 4 was -- the allegation at least is that I met 5 in Mar-a-Lago and so I felt that I needed to address 6 that. And I didn't want to leave that hanging 7 because that seems weird under the circumstances. 8 And also -- but I couldn't remember anyone 9 and -- maybe, you know, it's a long period of time. 10 So the issue is not that I'm trying to not say, but I 11 just don't -- I don't remember anybody that I would 12 have. But it's not impossible that I might have 13 asked someone from there. 14 TODD BLANCHE: I don't -- I don't know 15 exactly what you said yesterday, but I don't think 16 what you said yesterday is different than what you 17 just said. So, yes. There's -- 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I just wanted 19 to be -- I just didn't want to feel that I had said 20 no to something and that it -- and -- 21 TODD BLANCHE: definitely had 22 has said that she was working at Mar-a-Lago and that 23 you received a treatment of her -- from her at some 24 point, and that you recruited her to meet 25 Mr. Epstein. DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION

Page 220 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know, affirmatively, 3 whether that's true or false, or do you just not have 4 a memory either way? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really don't believe 6 it's true. But I know that I did go to spas and if I 7 met someone, I did ask if they're (indiscernible) -- 8 so I don't -- in the realms of possibility, it could 9 have, but I have no memory of it. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I don't believe 12 that that it's how it went down, but I don't want 13 to -- 14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So I want to talk 15 about -- we talked a little bit yesterday about the 16 financial part of your relationship with Mr. Epstein, 17 kind of being on payroll, for lack of a better word, 18 for many, many years, starting around $25,000 and 19 ending up at around $250,000 per year. 20 There's -- as you know, from your trial, 21 there's banking information that shows a ton of money 22 being sent to you from Mr. Epstein over the years. 23 And I think totaling something like 24 $30 million, something like this. What's -- what's 25 the -- why was that money sent to you? Like, what

Page 221 1 was that for? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, first of all, I 3 don't -- I dispute the characterization that the 4 money was sent to me. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So tell me what -- I 6 am stuck with the witnesses at trial and what was 7 said at trial on that issue. So what -- what -- what 8 is the -- what do you dispute about that? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I believe -- I 10 don't have full recollection. I'm not even sure I 11 ever saw what they accused me of, but my belief is 12 that that money also contained money that was for a 13 helicopter, for instance, that I never owned and I -- 14 was never mine. And -- 15 DAVID MARKUS: In other words, money was 16 sent to you that you then used to purchase things 17 or... 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I'm not even 19 sure that I purchased it. So the accounts -- those 20 accounts would be controlled by his accountants. 21 And -- 22 TODD BLANCHE: Even accounts in your name, 23 you're saying, or one of your entities? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I'm not even 25 sure I knew of all the entities. I'm not -- I

Page 222 1 don't -- it -- maybe I did, contemporaneously, but I 2 simply wouldn't know today. So if there was an 3 entity, let's say account X, if I really set that up 4 myself or whether they said, we're doing this and the 5 money's coming or whatever. But in no substantive 6 way -- I can't think of the right word. 7 DAVID MARKUS: Did you have control 8 over -- 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had no control, is 10 what I'm saying. 11 TODD BLANCHE: So when -- when the 12 government -- when there was testimony or the 13 government admitted evidence that showed, for 14 example, $5 million in 2002 coming from Epstein to 15 you, okay, what you're saying is that that may -- 16 that happened, but that the you there, wasn't money 17 that -- he wasn't giving you money. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not going to say 19 that for everything, because maybe there were 20 accounts that money was sent to me. But I can say 21 that I know -- like the helicopter, I can 22 definitively say. I'd have to look at all of them to 23 be accurate for you. 24 But to explain how or why I could be 25 receiving monies, and I certainly did. So I'm not

Page 223 1 disputing all of it. 2 TODD BLANCHE: But when you said -- let's 3 go back and look. Why would -- why did money have to 4 go into your accounts or account that was controlled 5 by others, but in your name to, like, purchase a 6 helicopter? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, that's a very good 8 question. I don't -- I'm not sure I know the answer 9 to that. I don't. 10 TODD BLANCHE: So let me ask this maybe a 11 different way that gets to the issue, right? So the 12 accusation by the government, based upon the evidence 13 they collected, is that Epstein paid you millions and 14 millions of dollars over the years. 15 And the reason why he paid you that is 16 because you were performing an extraordinary service 17 for him by recruiting young women, many of whom were 18 underage to -- so that he could sexually abuse them. 19 Okay. That's their -- that's their allegation. 20 Okay. 21 From what you said yesterday and from what 22 I've reviewed about you and Mr. Epstein, he paid for 23 a lot in your life. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Your flights, where you

Page 224 1 stayed with him. I mean, he didn't expect you to 2 reimburse him along the way for food and, you know, 3 so he took care of you for many years. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is true. 5 TODD BLANCHE: On top of that, he actually 6 paid you a salary as we talked about $25,000 to 7 $250,000. What else did he give you? Or what 8 purchase -- like, was there a time when he gave you a 9 million dollars or $500,000 as a bonus? Or what -- 10 what financial benefit did you receive from him, 11 besides what we've already talked about. We don't 12 have to talk about what, you know, so -- 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I got it. I got it. 14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my goal, always, 16 was to become independent, independently, financially 17 secure and work for myself. I've never been one to 18 not work. And in that regard, over the course of my 19 friendship and my working relationship with Epstein, 20 I expressed to him my desire to be independent of him 21 everywhere, just to be freestanding. 22 And the -- in -- with that in mind, I 23 wanted to have my own businesses or my own money 24 coming in independent and separate from any salary 25 that I received from him.

Page 225 1 And I needed that for my self-esteem. 2 I've never been -- I mean, obviously salary and it 3 was a very generous one. Please, I'm not belittling 4 the sum of money, because it's huge, but I was 5 brought up to work and I was brought up to be my own, 6 you know. 7 The first time -- so I would either 8 propose businesses to him or he would actually 9 suggest why didn't I do something in the first deal 10 that we did, or the first business that we had or I 11 had and that he financed for me. 12 So he gave -- he loaned me all the money 13 to enable me to do this and then I reaped the 14 profits, which I don't remember now, because we 15 varied over the deals that we did, that I would give 16 him 50 percent or 25. 17 It was sort of -- it was random. 18 TODD BLANCHE: So -- 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I can tell you 20 what it is, so we can compare it. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Go ahead. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it was in Palm 23 Beach actually, and it was in real estate. And they 24 sold what was the grounds originally of an estate 25 called the Phipps Estate. And then they converted

Page 226 1 the land that came with that estate into houses. And 2 I did, I think, two or maybe -- I can't remember now, 3 but certainly one and maybe two, possibly three. I 4 don't think so. I think two, that then were flipped 5 and there was a profit. 6 So that would be an example of that. But 7 I didn't have the money, so he lent me the funds to 8 do that business transaction and then I reaped the 9 profits. 10 TODD BLANCHE: And so -- but when -- 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that's millions of 12 dollars. 13 TODD BLANCHE: -- when a financial 14 investigator like, the FBI looks at accounts, they 15 don't know kind of the conversations you're having. 16 They just see the money. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. 18 TODD BLANCHE: So in those cases, when 19 that happened, when he would -- when he financed that 20 with you, would he send money to you? So does that 21 explain some of the money? Like, I guess -- 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe -- I think 23 it does. I think, for instance, there were two 24 Gullwing Mercedes that they did with Mercedes and 25 Aston Martin. You can look it up, I think, if I'm

Page 227 1 right. That had the doors that would come up like 2 this -- 3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There were only a very 5 limited number that were made. So I knew that we 6 could get those and flip them right within 24 hours, 7 for example. 8 Also my -- here's another example of 9 something that you guys wouldn't have known about is 10 I became a banker. I got my Series 63, Series 67 11 banking license and became a broker for like a new 12 (inaudible). And then -- because I was day trading. 13 Everything I had I day traded with -- through an 14 account. 15 And I think I was lucky more than smart, 16 but I made quite a lot of money doing that. And so 17 -- 18 TODD BLANCHE: When was that? Like what 19 -- approximate time -- 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Again, that's in the 21 '90s again. I don't -- oh, wait. I think -- well, 22 you can find it, because it'll be my banking license, 23 right? That'll be something that you can look up, 24 probably. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.

Page 228 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what whatever that 2 is -- and I just don't remember when that is. I'm 3 sorry. 4 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So -- 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And so for an example, 6 I was -- I was doing really, really, really well. 7 And so he was like, how do you do that? Well, how 8 are you -- what are you -- why are you investing in, 9 I don't know, Apple when nobody liked Apple. This 10 is, you know, before Apple or Microsoft. I didn't 11 know Bill Gates, so this is not related to him. 12 But my family -- 13 DAVID MARKUS: Don't charge her with 14 insider trading. 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Please -- no. I'm not 16 trying to suggest that. Oh, goodness. Please, no. 17 I had no -- 18 DAVID MARKUS: It was just a joke. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 20 TODD BLANCHE: It was a joke. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. No. All right. 22 But my -- going back to my family, my dad 23 had given me an account when I was 12 and I had 24 always an interest in business and finance, not -- 25 not very sophisticated. I'm not suggesting that.

Page 229 1 And so I like to trade and so I did and I 2 did well. And so then I would tell him what I was 3 doing. Now, whether he did or he didn't, he told me 4 he matched me in some other accounts that he had. 5 Because he did a lot of -- he -- my observation, to 6 go back to what he did, I observed him personally and 7 have recollection -- personal recollection of him 8 trading this money, lots. Tens of millions, hundreds 9 of millions of dollars. 10 TODD BLANCHE: That was -- that he was 11 trading for other people -- 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 13 TODD BLANCHE: -- or that was his own 14 money? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want also to clarify 16 something for you or clarify or underline. Wexner 17 was, in my opinion, his closest friend in this time 18 period from when I met him in '91, right, all the way 19 until-- well, 'til, I don't know. 20 Because I wasn't that friendly with -- 21 well, I did travel with Mr. Wexner, but Epstein told 22 me that Wexner didn't want to be seen too much with 23 me, because of my family problems. You know, whether 24 that was -- 25 TODD BLANCHE: You mean the problems that

Page 230 1 your father's company had with -- 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 3 TODD BLANCHE: -- embezzlement or 4 allegations of -- 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Yes. That's 6 what I'm talking about. 7 And now, actually today -- not 8 contemporaneously, but today I don't believe that 9 that's even true. I think it was used as a means to 10 not have me travel with him to Ohio or whatever. It 11 was just a way to park me. 12 And I believe that now, because within the 13 discovery there was a lot of -- well, not a lot, but 14 there was some indications that he would actively 15 tell other people to lie to me or conceal things from 16 me, and that he never loved me and I wasn't his type. 17 That's in the discovery somewhere. 18 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So the 19 government had evidence that, even as late as 2007, 20 he paid you a lot of money. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What was that? What 22 was the money? 23 TODD BLANCHE: Like several -- millions of 24 millions of dollars in 2007. $7.4 million, I think. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What was that for?

Page 231 1 Was it -- was that the helicopter? 2 TODD BLANCHE: That was -- that's my 3 question for you. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry. 5 TODD BLANCHE: I don't know. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Sorry. 7 TODD BLANCHE: So in 2007 -- 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think that was 9 probably the helicopter. That could have been -- 10 TODD BLANCHE: That was what? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That could have been 12 the helicopter, the Sikorsky. Those big chunks like 13 that, I don't -- I didn't -- I don't personally have 14 any memory of receiving a check from him for 15 $7 million. I just -- I just don't. But I would 16 have to -- I know I -- so the answer to your 17 question, to be precise -- 18 DAVID MARKUS: You would remember if it 19 went into your pocket -- 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would remember if it 21 went -- I would -- he never paid me to -- for 22 services that you just described, $7 million, to -- 23 for any nefarious reason. 24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. I think I understand 25 what you've said about being on the payroll and

Page 232 1 helping -- him helping you with businesses, and 2 giving you a lot of life things along the way. You 3 travel with him, you ate with him. He's, you know, 4 but there is the -- these massive amounts of money, 5 one-time payments that I -- 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I don't -- you'd 7 have to trace that, right? So I don't believe that 8 came into my account or I had any control. I have no 9 memory of that. I have no -- no -- 10 TODD BLANCHE: Well, but if there's 11 records that show it coming into your account, it 12 sounds like what you're saying is that not -- putting 13 aside your -- you have no memory of that money being 14 yours. 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Like you didn't -- that 17 money is not somewhere -- 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I wouldn't be 19 like, oh, yippee, let me go. I got $7 million. I'm 20 going to go buy myself a yacht. No. Or I don't 21 know, something else or move it to some other -- no. 22 I don't think -- I don't think, if you 23 look -- you'll have to check, obviously you will. I 24 don't think you'll find that money moving in any -- 25 to any account, either of mine or it shouldn't show,

Page 233 1 I don't believe anyway. As far as I recollect, it 2 wouldn't show me spending it. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Right. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that make sense? 5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah, that makes 6 sense. I mean, I think if -- I don't think there's 7 any dispute by anybody, even your lawyers at trial, 8 that -- that that the money went in. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, $7 million in 10 when, what year? 11 TODD BLANCHE: Well, there's several 12 years; in 2007. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And? 14 TODD BLANCHE: 2002, there was $5 million 15 that you were paid in 2002. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well, I'd have 17 to -- I don't -- I don't remember. But -- okay. So 18 there's -- there would be another large sum, but it 19 wouldn't have come from him later. But it had 20 nothing to do -- 21 TODD BLANCHE: The biggest one was in 22 1999. There's over $18 million. $18.3 million. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know what that 24 is. 25 TODD BLANCHE: So what -- but you --

Page 234 1 you're -- but what you're saying, it sounds like, and 2 if you don't know, we're going to -- we can move on. 3 But when we're talking about $18.3 million 4 in '99, $5 million in -- three years later in 2002, 5 $7.4 million in 2007. That -- those -- that money 6 adds up to around $30 million. 7 You were not paid that by Mr. Epstein. 8 Meaning, that's not money you received for your 9 benefit, even if it was put into your accounts. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't believe any of 11 that was my money. Now, I do -- I just -- like I 12 said, we did do these things -- 13 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. I understand that. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: - - with the cars. 15 TODD BLANCHE: I understand that. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And as -- 17 TODD BLANCHE: But -- 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if any of 19 that money, some of it -- if it moves, some of that 20 may have come from the car or a house that was sold 21 that I had an interest in with him. That's possible. 22 But I don't think this money is mine. 23 LEAH SAFFIAN: But also, the record should 24 reflect, too, that there were times Ghislaine's name 25 was used, for example, Air Ghislaine. Her name was

Page 235 1 in the name of the entity. It had nothing to do with 2 her. And if you pull signatures -- 3 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 4 LEAH SAFFIAN: -- there's no evidence for 5 that. 6 TODD BLANCHE: No. My -- what I'm trying 7 to just make sure I -- that I understand, is that the 8 idea that you were paid $30 million between '99 and 9 2007, in order to -- by Mr. Epstein to reward you for 10 recruiting young women. That is in your -- you're 11 saying that is categorically, completely false? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is categorically 13 false, correct. 14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So I want to just -- 15 we went through several individuals yesterday and I 16 want to go through just a couple of more names and 17 ask if you -- if you know them. And if you do know 18 them, how you know them. 19 Do you know Elon Musk? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do. 21 TODD BLANCHE: And how did you meet 22 Mr. Musk? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him in -- I 24 don't remember the year, but it's going to be in 25 2010, '11, something like that, I think, if my memory

Page 236 1 serves. 2 And I was at an event for Sergey Brin, the 3 co-founder of Google. And Sergey had arranged for -- 4 it was for his birthday. 5 And we were -- or a bunch of us, I don't 6 even remember how many we were, but not many of us. 7 Maybe -- I don't know. If I say 40, I 8 could be wrong. If it was 30 or 50, I don't 9 remember. I'm sorry. 10 Went to another friend's island. Somebody 11 called Mr. Pigozzi in the Caribbean and -- not with 12 Epstein, he was not there, to celebrate Sergey's 13 birthday. And we were there together for, I want to 14 say, three or four days, something like that in my 15 memory. And Mr. Musk was present for that. 16 TODD BLANCHE: And that was the first time 17 you met him, as far as you know? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: As far as I remember, 19 yes. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you meet -- did you 21 know his brother, Mr. Musk's brother? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if I've 23 ever met him. I know that he has a brother and I 24 don't think I met him. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Aside from that time in --

Page 237 1 around 2010, on the island in the Caribbean for a 2 couple days, did you -- have you seen -- do you know 3 Mr. Musk beyond that time? 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: We met at -- I was at 5 the Oscars and we met at the Oscars. 6 TODD BLANCHE: What year was that, earlier 7 or later? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was post that 9 event, I believe. 10 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether 11 Mr. Epstein knew Mr. Musk? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe they did. 13 And the only reason I say that is not from my memory, 14 but because I saw -- I think I saw -- my memory is 15 that in discovery, they were communicating on email. 16 TODD BLANCHE: So you have no personal 17 knowledge of that? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no -- 19 TODD BLANCHE: It's just what you've -- 20 what you've seen from the press or from discovery? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I believe his 22 brother as well, actually. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Excuse me? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mr. Musk's brother as 25 well. But I don't -- my -- like I said, my memory is

Page 238 1 not -- it's not as good as I would like it to be. 2 And I just want to say that. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Do you -- you mentioned, I 4 think, yesterday in passing -- well, not in passing, 5 but as part of another answer, Andrew Cuomo. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Did you know Mr. Cuomo? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, only because he 9 was married to Kerry. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. Okay. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I think I knew his 12 brother as well. What's -- he has a brother, right? 13 He's on TV. What's his name? 14 LEAH SAFFIAN: Chris. 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. Christopher. 16 LEAH SAFFIAN: Christopher Cuomo. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Chris. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Chris. 19 TODD BLANCHE: You mean the TV -- the 20 former TV anchor or the TV anchor, Chris Cuomo? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So -- but I would say 24 just socially, not -- I'm not close friends or 25 anything, but because we -- I was friends with Kerry

Page 239 1 and I met him a few times and I certainly met his 2 brother as well a few times. 3 TODD BLANCHE: And the same questions that 4 I asked about Mr. Musk, do you know whether 5 Mr. Epstein knew Andrew Cuomo or Chris Cuomo or 6 Ms. Kennedy, your friend? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think so. 8 TODD BLANCHE: And so you never -- you 9 don't recall any of those three individuals, like, 10 flying on Mr. Epstein's plane -- 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 12 TODD BLANCHE: -- or visiting him in 13 Palm Beach or at the island? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 15 TODD BLANCHE: I think you mentioned 16 former Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday. But 17 if not, do you know Mr. Kerry or no? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have met him, but I 19 don't know if Mr. Epstein ever met him. I met him 20 only -- well, really I can't even probably 21 characterize that as a meeting, but I was very, very 22 involved in the Ocean at Work, through the -- you 23 asked me yesterday about TerraMar. 24 And if I recall right, I met Mr. -- the 25 Secretary that way through the Ocean, but he wouldn't

Page 240 1 know who I am, I doubt. I don't think. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether -- 3 well, do you know former Senator Ted Kennedy? 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 5 TODD BLANCHE: And does -- is that through 6 your own life or through Mr. Epstein? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My life. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether 9 Mr. Epstein knew Senator Kennedy? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't believe so. 11 TODD BLANCHE: And so for the folks we 12 just talked about, so former Secretary of State John 13 Kerry, Ted Kennedy, did -- you don't know whether 14 Mr. Epstein knew them, so I take that to mean you 15 have no recollection of them flying on his planes-- 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh God, no. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh. But Bobby Kennedy 19 knew him. Bobby, the health -- 20 TODD BLANCHE: Sorry. Say that again 21 about Bobby Kennedy. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Bobby knew 23 Mr. Epstein. 24 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know that? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because we went on a

Page 241 1 trip together. Was -- we went to -- dinosaur bone 2 hunting in the Dakotas. 3 TODD BLANCHE: When was that, you know, 4 approximately? I'm not looking for an exact date, 5 but when was that? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was early -- that 7 was in the early -- well, let me back up. I knew 8 Bobby's wife, Mary, pretty well, actually. And 9 before he met her. 10 TODD BLANCHE: And just to help us, I know 11 we're talking about a wide span of time, but what are 12 you -- when are you talking about that you knew 13 Mr. Kennedy's wife before they were married. 14 So when are talking about the -- 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- in 19 -- all 16 right. I guess, let's get my head straight. In -- 17 TODD BLANCHE: Well, would this have been 18 before you met Mr. Epstein -- 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 20 TODD BLANCHE: -- or after? Okay. So -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him before I 22 met. 23 TODD BLANCHE: So we're talking about the 24 1980s. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes. Yes. Thank

Page 242 1 you. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. The '80s. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So we're talking 5 about the 1980s. And then -- 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The -- I was the -- I 7 had a very, very longstanding boyfriend and he had -- 8 his brother was dating Mary at the time, and we were 9 all very good friends. 10 TODD BLANCHE: And then Mr. Epstein -- did 11 Mr. Epstein meet Bobby Kennedy through you? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't -- I don't 13 think so, because Mr. Epstein, surprisingly, everyone 14 says everything happened through me. That's just not 15 true. I mean, I think yesterday I explained that he 16 had friends from London, and those are very -- they 17 were what the people would call "fancy." 18 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They were fancy 20 people. And -- but he had the same types of 21 relationships before I met him in America. So when I 22 met him, he was already, you know, Wexner and he had 23 Henry and he had -- he was --I don't know if then he 24 was at the -- in the Council of Foreign Relations, 25 but he was friends with Ace and, you know, like he

Page 243 1 was -- he was well established. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He didn't need me. 4 And he was, you know, his -- Eva was, you know, major 5 model. So he had all these modeling connections and 6 friends in that business, long before I met him. 7 TODD BLANCHE: And so the trip that you 8 went on with Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy, was that 9 in the '90s and 2000s when -- 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was in 11 the -- it would've been in the -- I want to say '93, 12 '94. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So a very long time 14 ago. 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A very, very long time 16 ago. 17 TODD BLANCHE: A few years into the -- 18 your relationship -- a few years into the time that 19 you knew Mr. Epstein? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I mean, I don't 21 want to hold myself to the dates because I really -- 22 TODD BLANCHE: No, no. I'm not holding 23 you to dates. I think -- 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because I really don't 25 --

Page 244 1 TODD BLANCHE: I've said that a lot, 2 because I appreciate we're talking about the '80s and 3 '90s and even the 2000s. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I just want you to 5 know, I haven't had any -- I don't have anything to 6 review, so I haven't had any ability to -- the short 7 of my legal material, obviously, which you can -- you 8 know I have, because I came with a box worth, but 9 short of that, I have nothing with which to 10 refresh -- or very limited stuff, I should say, I 11 don't want to say nothing -- to refresh my mind. 12 TODD BLANCHE: I understand that. Do you 13 have any recollection of Mr. Kennedy -- of there 14 being anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy and 15 masseuses or young women on the trip you just talked 16 about? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw anything 18 inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy. 19 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether he 20 ever got a massage from one of the masseuses? Do you 21 know either way? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not. 23 TODD BLANCHE: But not something you 24 remember? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, absolutely

Page 245 1 not. 2 I mean, he -- well, I mean, yesterday, if 3 I didn't make it clear, I will reiterate it. I 4 never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate 5 with a woman of any age. I never saw inappropriate 6 habits. 7 Now, I'm not -- I'm not going to say hands 8 or -- I mean, that to me is not inappropriate. Now, 9 somebody's inappropriate and mine may be different, 10 but -- 11 TODD BLANCHE: Yep. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- we're not talking 13 about anything that's -- resembles the accusations 14 that we've discussed here. So that would be an -- a 15 flat no to any man. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Did your or Mr. Epstein's 17 relationship with Mr. -- with Bobby Kennedy continue 18 into the 2000s, as far as you know? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say yes. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Um -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, mine, yes. I 22 don't -- 23 TODD BLANCHE: Your's -- with you. Okay. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With me, for sure. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether

Page 246 1 Mr. Epstein and Mr. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, continued 2 to have relationships into the 2000s? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no personal 4 knowledge of that. I mean, I would -- because -- 5 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no personal knowledge 6 is fine. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Another thing is that 8 everyone puts us together like a monolith. 9 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He literally had a 11 separate life from me. I literally had a separate 12 life from him. Now, did they say? Well, of course 13 they did. I'm not-- that's -- I'm not crazy. 14 But he kept a lot to himself and he didn't 15 like to share. He was not a sharer. Well, at least 16 not with me. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Epstein didn't share, 18 you're saying? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not with me, no. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- do you know 21 somebody named Cheryl Mills? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Used to work in the White 24 House as a lawyer? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I do. Yes.

Page 247 1 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know Ms. Mills? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Ms. Mills 3 through President Clinton. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember a -- 5 generally, the timeframe that you -- you met her? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do, actually. Hang 7 on. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to remember -- I'm 8 trying to get my dates right. 9 DAVID MARKUS: Approximately. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, okay. I can't 11 get my dates right. But it's something you probably 12 can -- going to be in the early 2000s. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what I don't 15 recall -- 16 TODD BLANCHE: So -- 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say 2002. 18 I'm going to say 2002, 2003. 19 TODD BLANCHE: So it was after President 20 Clinton left office? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes. 22 TODD BLANCHE: And so it was in the 2000s. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Definitely. 24 TODD BLANCHE: And how -- what -- how did 25 you meet her? What were the circumstances under

Page 248 1 which you met Ms. Mills? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I went on a trip with 3 the President to South America. 4 TODD BLANCHE: With which president? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry. 6 President Clinton. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. Just, you 8 know -- 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. 10 TODD BLANCHE: -- just wanted -- it was -- 11 I just wanted to make sure it was clear. 12 Okay. So you went on a trip to -- to 13 where? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Latin America. 15 TODD BLANCHE: And who -- and so Ms. Mills 16 was on that trip? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She was. 18 TODD BLANCHE: And President Clinton was 19 on that trip? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Who else was on that trip? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Doug Band. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Who worked with President 24 Clinton? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.

Page 249 1 TODD BLANCHE: And was Mr. Epstein? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 3 TODD BLANCHE: And what was the purpose of 4 that trip? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, the President 6 had -- I don't know. I mean, I -- the President met 7 with -- I can't even remember every -- all the, I 8 know, presidents and we were in -- 9 TODD BLANCHE: Was this part of President 10 Clinton's work after he left office with the -- with 11 his foundation? Or was -- meaning what -- 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think the 13 foundation, when did the -- 14 TODD BLANCHE: -- was it something for him 15 or was it -- 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: When did the -- I 17 don't remember when the Clinton Global Initiative 18 started. 19 So if you date me -- if you give me that 20 date, I can tell you if it was pre or post. Because 21 without that, I can't pin the reason. 22 DAVID MARKUS: Do you remember what it was 23 for or not? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I don't recall. 25 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.

Page 250 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I don't -- 2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that's -- don't over 3 think or under think the reason for my questions. 4 I don't -- I don't have any idea why you 5 went on that trip, so I don't know an answer that I'm 6 getting from you. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I'm just trying to 8 be as accurate as possible and give you the 9 information that you seek. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Why would you -- do you 11 remember why you were invited to go? Like were you 12 -- were you friends with somebody? What was your 13 role going on that trip? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't have a role. 15 TODD BLANCHE: So do you remember why -- 16 do you remember who invited you to go? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If -- probably 18 Doug Band. 19 TODD BLANCHE: And how did you know Doug? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because Doug and -- 21 again, back with Philip Levine. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Got it. And do you know 23 whether he had a relationship with Mr. Epstein? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Who? 25 TODD BLANCHE: Doug.

Page 251 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I don't know. I 2 mean, nothing. He -- I don't believe there was any 3 relationship, other than I helped -- well, without 4 me, I don't think there would've been those flights, 5 because I was the one who asked Epstein to provide 6 the plane for -- well, certainly I remember the one 7 to Africa, of course, that big trip. 8 And I thought it was an honor and a 9 privilege to be part of something so amazing and to 10 have an opportunity to spend time with a man that I 11 found truly extraordinary. 12 And please, I don't mean it in any other 13 way, other than as a former fantastic ex-president. 14 I don't -- 15 TODD BLANCHE: So I was asking around the 16 question, but I'll just ask it: like, were you 17 basically asked to go because you were kind of 18 responsible for the plane? 19 Responsible is the wrong word. They use 20 you -- they were able to use you to make sure that 21 they could -- you helped them get Mr. Epstein's plane 22 for the trip? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I don't even know 24 if when I was on that -- in fact, I think -- I think, 25 that trip, I'm not even sure that Epstein had met the

Page 252 1 President. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think this is -- but 4 if I'm right, and I think I am, I think that trip 5 happened when Epstein and Clinton had never even -- 6 not that they'd never met, because Epstein had gone 7 to the White House, but they had not met. 8 I'd never asked Epstein for the plane then 9 because they'd never met and it would be weird. But 10 they met because of me and the plane was because of 11 me. But that trip was the first, I think, the first 12 trip I took with the ex-president. And I don't 13 believe Epstein and he had met. 14 And we're talking a time period when I was 15 trying to -- 16 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- leave. Not very 18 successfully obviously, but I was branching out on my 19 own and being more independent of Mr. Epstein and 20 trying to -- all kinds of businesses that I was into. 21 I was trying to start the first telehealth 22 medicine with the Cleveland Clinic. I mean, I'm not 23 going to bore you, because I don't think that's what 24 you guys are interested in, but those were the sorts 25 of things that I was looking for him to finance, so

Page 253 1 that I could stop being, you know, a general manager 2 of a hotel. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- so did you take 4 other trips with some or all of those individuals, 5 kind of without Mr. Epstein in later years? Like, 6 you said that was the first time that you had kind of 7 been on something like that and it was an honor and 8 you were spending time with former President Clinton 9 and others. 10 Were there other -- over the years, did 11 you do that more than once? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 13 TODD BLANCHE: We'll talk about those. 14 Like multiple times, like too many to count or there 15 three or four times. Like how many times? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A lot. A lot. I went 17 on a lot of trips. Now I don't recall all of them. 18 Not because I'm trying to be evasive or anything, but 19 I just don't remember them all. 20 And after a while, you know, in the 21 incredible job that you have, all of you, that when 22 you're so high pressured and you're spending so much 23 time with extraordinary people like you do with 24 President Trump, it -- it can blur. It just does. 25 And those few things that stand out,

Page 254 1 because at the end it's all just extraordinary as 2 cars and sirens and president. It's like, whoa, 3 okay. 4 TODD BLANCHE: So, I understand, but 5 talk -- so don't give me spec- -- 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. 7 TODD BLANCHE: -- I understand you can't 8 give specific numbers. What -- describe more about 9 kind of your, that part of your life and your 10 relationship. I'm using "relationship." You don't 11 like relationships. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right, right. 13 TODD BLANCHE: And your -- sorry. And 14 your -- 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My employer. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. Just describe your -- 17 what you were doing with those individuals. So when 18 I say "those individuals," I'm talking about former 19 President Clinton, Doug, other folks that worked with 20 him. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All of them. Yes. 22 There were loads of them. And just all of them, you 23 know the team, I don't need to give you all the 24 names. You have them at your fingertips and I can 25 confirm. If you give me names, I'll say yes, because

Page 255 1 they're not all going to pop into my head, so. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Right. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I started 4 spending a lot of time. I don't want to characterize 5 that, but I started spending time with the former 6 President and with Doug and his team. 7 And then it -- I had no purpose, really, 8 other than I had -- I obviously offered something, I 9 don't know, ideas of -- I don't know. 10 Anyway. And he started to travel. I 11 don't remember if the first trip was Africa or how it 12 went, but at some point, I think there was actually 13 two trips, but I'm not sure. So there was to Europe 14 and then to Africa, I think maybe it was all one 15 trip. 16 And at some point, Mr. Epstein said he 17 didn't want to go on the trip and he was going 18 somewhere else and he just left. And I was like, 19 well, okay. And so I ended up doing the whole trip 20 without Mr. Epstein or his plane. 21 TODD BLANCHE: And when you were traveling 22 with them, what were the purposes of the trips? Like 23 is this one -- 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think these were 25 all -- I think actually it was the AIDS, was one of

Page 256 1 the primary ones, for his AIDS Foundation, when he 2 was working to do that. And there were always a 3 humanitarian side to the trips. 4 And we went to Egypt and to, there was -- 5 oh, yeah. 6 TODD BLANCHE: So there -- so it sounds 7 like you're describing one -- right now, one trip 8 with lots of stops. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It could be, but I 10 have a feeling that I went on other trips, but I 11 can't remember. 12 TODD BLANCHE: When you -- when you went 13 on these -- 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I went to London. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Went to London. Okay. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if that's 17 the same trip. 18 TODD BLANCHE: When you went on these 19 trips, that -- were you always on Mr. Epstein's 20 plane? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 22 TODD BLANCHE: -- Or did you sometimes 23 accompany them on a different plane? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. Yes. 25 TODD BLANCHE: How many were on

Page 257 1 Mr. Epstein's plane? Again, I'm not holding you to 2 exact, but -- 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was a full, that 4 was packed. Because it was a lot of secret service. 5 It took all the Secret Service as well. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it was whatever the 8 detail is for Secret Service, it's a lot. 9 TODD BLANCHE: And on how many occasions, 10 besides the trip you just described, were there other 11 times when they used -- when President Clinton and 12 the folks he was with, used Mr. Epstein's plane? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was -- 14 there was twice, maybe. There was that. But it will 15 reflect on the logs. There won't be anything that's 16 not on the logs that you have already. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Were you, by the way, 18 responsible for the logs in any way? Like, you've 19 seen the logs and they're public and you have them in 20 discovery. 21 But over the years when you were working 22 with or for Mr. Epstein, did you have access to the 23 logs? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was, not. No, 25 never. The pilots -- the logbook was their personal

Page 258 1 logbook. 2 I never even saw them have it. I never 3 saw them fill it in. And then there was a second set 4 of logs, the -- the flight manifests. And I never 5 saw those either. I was never -- I was never 6 allowed, I suppose. Because he didn't want me to 7 see. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- so do you 9 know whether Mr. Epstein had a separate relationship 10 with -- with President Clinton, different from the 11 what you just described? So different than being 12 with him, with respect to his foundation or something 13 like this? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say no. 15 TODD BLANCHE: When's the last time that 16 you went on a trip or saw President Clinton? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was in -- was late 18 2000 and, I don't know, '16, '17, '18, something 19 in -- it was in Los Angeles. 20 TODD BLANCHE: And what was the purpose of 21 that meeting? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he was hosting 23 something or he was at an event and I was in L.A. and 24 I had dinner with him. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Had -- did you ever meet

Page 259 1 Secretary Clinton, Hillary Clinton? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 3 TODD BLANCHE: When did you meet her? 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say -- 5 again, please don't hold me to it, but I want to say 6 that it was on a flight that came from the island 7 from -- not from the island, from the Nantucket or -- 8 or Martha's Vineyard back to New York, is what I 9 think. I might be wrong. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So some -- an East 11 Coast island, like Nantucket -- 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 13 TODD BLANCHE: -- Or something like this? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. No, -- the 15 Clint- -- the ex-president never came to the island. 16 TODD BLANCHE: And did you -- is that the 17 only time that you met Hillary Clinton? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I went to the 19 house in Chappaqua a few times. 20 TODD BLANCHE: And why did you go to the 21 house? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was invited. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Just to see 24 President Clinton or Hillary Clinton or both or -- 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I mean, as a

Page 260 1 friend, not for -- I don't -- there was no -- I don't 2 remember any reason, either was somehow I 3 communicated that was in coming, driving back past 4 Chappaqua or if they were home and stop in. 5 And it's -- I know it sounds a little 6 flippant, but it could -- it could have even 7 something as -- 8 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether 9 Mr. Epstein had -- knew or had any sort of visit 10 dealings or -- associated with Hillary Clinton? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say no. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you ever see 13 them together? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- do you know whether 16 Mr. Epstein ever did any business transactions with 17 the Clintons? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would -- well, I'm 19 not sure I can. I'm not sure how to quite -- I don't 20 know the answer to that strictly, because, I was -- I 21 was part of the beginning process of the Clinton 22 Global Initiative. 23 And that was something that I helped with 24 and that was me, and Epstein may have helped me help 25 them. And in that context, he may well have involved

Page 261 1 himself, but only in the context of something that I 2 was trying to do. 3 TODD BLANCHE: So when you say "involved 4 himself," meaning like, give money to the Clinton 5 Global Initiative or something like this? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so there's that. 7 I think he did do that. And that, I believe, the 8 money that he may have given could have been 9 independent of me. But I think it's just easier if I 10 just tell you how it happened, rather than -- 11 otherwise it sounds all odd and funky. I went to 12 Davos with a former president and I -- have you been 13 to Davos? 14 TODD BLANCHE: In what? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Have you been to 16 Davos? 17 TODD BLANCHE: I have not. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Well, you know, 19 it's a -- you know what it is, right? Okay. So -- 20 and I was -- I thought the former president should 21 have his own Davos, because it would be -- and they 22 had -- it turned out, that they had been thinking 23 about it anyway. 24 And so we were talking about it and, you 25 know, it's a very heavy lift to get something like

Page 262 1 that to go. And I was friendly with one of the 2 people who had -- I don't know if he was at the 3 beginning of Davos or -- but he was running Davos. 4 It was just -- I don't know, hard to 5 describe his actual role at Davos and had 6 conversations with him about what did he think, you 7 know? Oh, just because I was having dinner with him 8 about if Clinton could get something like that to go, 9 what was his thoughts? 10 And he was very, very enthusiastic. I 11 mean, he was like, that's just an incredible idea. 12 So I put them together. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Who -- what's that person's 14 name? Do you remember? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I knew you were going 16 to ask me. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can -- I can -- 19 TODD BLANCHE: Just -- you said -- I 20 didn't know if you knew his -- if you remember his 21 name. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do know. I do, but 23 I just -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: Can't remember his name. 25 Okay.

Page 263 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It will come to me. 2 It may come to me tomorrow, but eventually these 3 things, like, surface from -- like in the middle of 4 the night, I was scribbling names -- 5 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that I couldn't 7 remember from yesterday. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But his name will come 10 to me, and if not, we can find it. 11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you -- when 12 the -- just still stay -- staying on your 13 relationship with -- sorry, the -- your association 14 with the Clintons. 15 You were part of the ramp up or the 16 startup of the Clinton Global Initiative -- 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was. 18 TODD BLANCHE: -- and helping them in 19 supporting that effort. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I would say very 21 central to that, yes. 22 TODD BLANCHE: And Mr. Epstein, was he 23 part of the work around that or just in support of 24 you? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He supported me to

Page 264 1 help them, but then I think he may have tried to use 2 that to insert himself in some way, that would not 3 have surprised me at all. 4 And I know that he was annoying, in terms 5 that I could catch him on the phone and he wouldn't 6 always agree with what I wanted to do. And I was 7 like, it's not your idea. I don't really care what 8 you think, but that didn't go over so well. 9 TODD BLANCHE: And -- 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I just want to 11 say, it wasn't my idea for his CGI. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Wasn't your -- say it 13 again. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's not my idea. 15 They had had that idea before. I just helped bring 16 key personnel to -- 17 TODD BLANCHE: You're saying the idea of 18 President Clinton kind of having his own Davos 19 like -- 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not -- I'm not 21 owning. I didn't -- that's not -- 22 TODD BLANCHE: Understood. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't want anyone -- 24 I don't try to elevate myself in any form of 25 importance here.

Page 265 1 TODD BLANCHE: No, I understand. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you go to Davos with 4 President Clinton more than once or just once? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't remember. 6 Once for sure. And I think maybe twice, but I don't 7 remember. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- and you're not, I 9 think you said, you don't -- you're not aware of 10 President Clinton ever going to the island? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never. Absolutely 12 never went. And I can be sure of that because 13 there's no way he would've gone -- I don't believe 14 there's any way that he would've gone to the island, 15 had I not been there. Because I don't believe he had 16 an independent friendship, if you will, with Epstein. 17 Did they speak? Did he go? Yes, but 18 that's very different from going to spend time on an 19 island. 20 And plus, the story as told is so patently 21 absurd that I flew him in the helicopter. I am a 22 helicopter pilot, that is true. But the notion of me 23 flying an ex-president in a machine. That would 24 terrify me. I would never even take that 25 responsibility. Can you imagine? Yeah, no. I'm not

Page 266 1 -- I'm -- no. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you ever go with 3 President Clinton to any of Epstein -- Mr. Epstein's 4 properties? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- 6 TODD BLANCHE: -- so like New Mexico, 7 Palm Beach, or in New York? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no memory of 9 him in any of those places. 10 TODD BLANCHE: When you were in London 11 with President Clinton, did you -- did you ever go to 12 your -- to your flat with him? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think he did. 14 I don't -- I don't think so, because this, like, it's 15 like -- he wouldn't even -- he wouldn't even be able 16 to carry all his Secret Service with him. I don't 17 think so, no. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you know -- we 19 talked a little about the Duchess of York, about 20 Sarah Ferguson yesterday. 21 Did -- when's the -- when the last time 22 you, like -- when's the last time you, you saw her? 23 Like, were you -- were you -- do you have a -- were 24 you with her or hang out with her, socializing with 25 her, in the '90s, 2000s? Both?

Page 267 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She's -- well, I had 2 a -- I don't know if she liked me very much. I think 3 my friendship with her ex-husband -- well, sometimes 4 she really did like me and sometimes she didn't. So 5 maybe a frenemy, I don't know. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- it was always 8 friendly when we were together, but I think that 9 there was some latent hostility. And I -- 10 TODD BLANCHE: Is that something you've 11 heard since everything came out or along the way you 12 felt that way? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, that's how I felt. 14 That -- that is a characterization of myself. That's 15 how I felt about her. I would never -- I was always 16 friendly with her. I mean, she's -- I mean, I've 17 seen her many, many times and she's also super, super 18 close with other people I'm very good friends with in 19 England. I think that -- I think that she liked 20 Mr. Epstein. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you think that? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My female intuition. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 24 LEAH SAFFIAN: Discovery. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh.

Page 268 1 LEAH SUFFIAN: The letter. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember it. 3 TODD BLANCHE: It's okay. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I don't -- it's 5 possible that there's things -- well, I know -- it's 6 not possible. I know that there is discovery, but I 7 don't recall. But I think she had a thing for him. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- there's some actors 9 or some folks from Hollywood that I want to ask you 10 about, just to understand whether you knew them or 11 Mr. Epstein knew them. Chris Tucker? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 13 TODD BLANCHE: How did you know 14 Mr. Tucker? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think only from that 16 flight to Africa. But I do think that they met -- 17 TODD BLANCHE: You say that flight to 18 Africa, the one we were just talking about with -- 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 20 TODD BLANCHE: -- President Clinton? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Sorry. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Sorry, go ahead. Yep. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I also think that 24 they kept a little bit in touch and I think we met, 25 or I have a memory of him maybe in L.A., I don't

Page 269 1 know. I think they sort of loosely stayed in touch. 2 I wouldn't -- I don't think it -- I don't know. I 3 don't know how to say that. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Mr. Tucker 5 besides that flight? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 7 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether -- 8 when you say you think that they kept in touch, you 9 mean you think that Mr. Epstein and Mr. Tucker -- 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They may have. I 11 didn't, but he might have. I'm not sure. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Kevin Spacey? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I know him also from 14 that same flight. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Aside from that flight, do 16 you know him from any other thing? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Naomi Campbell? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I do know Naomi, 20 and I knew her before I met Mr. Epstein and Mr. -- 21 former President Clinton. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether 23 Mr. Epstein separately knew Ms. Campbell? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think she -- he 25 probably met her through me, that I imagine.

Page 270 1 TODD BLANCHE: And so for those three, 2 Mr. Tucker, Mr. Spacey, and Ms. Campbell, did they 3 ever travel to any of Mr. Epstein's properties; the 4 island or New Mexico? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not Mr. Tucker -- 6 well, not to my knowledge Mr. Tucker or Mr. Spacey. 7 Naomi Campbell may have. 8 TODD BLANCHE: To where? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She may have gone -- 10 well, she certainly -- well, I believe she visited 11 him in Palm Beach, and I believe she may have gone to 12 the island and she may have gone to see his house in 13 New York. Whether she went to New Mexico or Paris as 14 well, maybe. They were friends or friendly. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Were you -- what you just 16 said "she may have," were you on those trips? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't have any 18 independent memory of that, so I'm not sure. I don't 19 think so. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Her relationship, her 22 friendship, her -- I think you're making me use your 23 word. Her -- her friendship, whatever, with 24 Mr. Epstein was independent of me. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. But you also had a

Page 271 1 separate friendship with her before you met 2 Mr. Epstein? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Larry Summers, the 5 former Secretary of the Treasury. 6 Do you know that person? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did, yes. 8 TODD BLANCHE: How? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Mr. Summers 10 through Mr. Epstein. 11 TODD BLANCHE: And the same question, just 12 generally time period, are you talking about early 13 2000s, '90s, a little after that? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I honestly really 15 don't know. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did want to say 18 something. I forgot that there was -- yesterday. 19 You asked me about Mr. Epstein's properties. He had 20 a rental in Boston as well, but it -- not for very 21 long, but it was another place that I had to put 22 together. And I only went with him once and he would 23 go there independently of me. No, I would not go 24 with him. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Was that in the '90s?

Page 272 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was, yes. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Summers, do you know 3 why -- do you know what his relationship was with 4 Mr. Epstein; business, personal, both, or don't you 5 know? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he spoke to 7 Mr. Epstein about business a lot, but I think they 8 were friends. They were friendly. 9 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether 10 Mr. Summers ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes to 11 any of the properties that Mr. Epstein owned? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He may have, but I 13 don't think, if he did, I was on any of the flights. 14 I mean, those are another issues. I mean, I went -- 15 I traveled so, so much that I really -- the flights 16 just blur. 17 TODD BLANCHE: I understand. 18 George Soros? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think he knew 20 him. I did, but I don't think he did. I don't 21 think. 22 TODD BLANCHE: How did you know Mr. Soros? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was friends with his 24 kids. 25 TODD BLANCHE: What -- which kids?

Page 273 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Jon and -- I can't 2 think of his other child. I can't think of -- I 3 mean, I've lost his name. 4 LEAH SAFFIAN: Alexander. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Who? 6 LEAH SAFFIAN: Alexander. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him, but just 8 socially. He may not remember even having met me. I 9 was excited to meet him. 10 TODD BLANCHE: When are you thinking -- 11 when would you have met him? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If I met him it -- I 13 think it was either at an event or at his kids -- it 14 wouldn't have been at his house. An event, I 15 think -- or I think actually, no, in the Hamptons I 16 met him. He was staying at somebody's house. If -- 17 if my memory serves. 18 TODD BLANCHE: And what was your 19 relationship? How did you know his kids? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was out and about in 21 New York a lot. 22 TODD BLANCHE: So just socially? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Just socially, yes. 24 And -- yeah, just socially, I think. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- do you know

Page 274 1 whether Mr. Soros or his kids ever traveled on 2 Mr. Epstein's planes? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think so. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Ever visit either the 5 island or New Mexico or -- 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I don't think so. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Paris? No? 8 Okay. So I -- we tried to -- to identify 9 names that have come up, either publicly or in -- in 10 other lawsuits. Are there any names that you -- that 11 come to mind that we haven't, we've talked about a 12 lot of names. A lot of names. 13 Are there some folks that you think we've 14 forgotten to ask you about? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, you asked me 16 about names and I have some names, and I just want to 17 give you some context for the names as well. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Sure. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we talked about 20 Elizabeth Johnson yesterday. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She had a boyfriend 23 and he was Frederic Fekkai, the hairdresser. And he 24 and Epstein were friendly, very friendly. 25 TODD BLANCHE: And then what time period

Page 275 1 are you talking about? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well -- 3 TODD BLANCHE: Like '90s, or 2000s, or 4 both? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think the 2000s, 6 actually, for that. You can date that because it was 7 from when he -- I think he probably knew Frederic 8 before he dated Elizabeth. But -- 9 TODD BLANCHE: And when you say they were 10 very friendly, did they go -- did they travel 11 together? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if they 13 traveled together, I mean, Epstein didn't go out very 14 much or -- I mean, he did go out, but not -- and 15 sometimes if he did, I think he would go out and 16 maybe see Fred- -- Frederic. 17 And then there was -- I mean, he had a 18 bunch of guys that he would -- I would know that he 19 would see or meet, but he really -- I guess now -- so 20 he had new friends. I -- I don't know, but -- 21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What other names? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay, so Henry 23 Jarecki, who had an island near his. Henry was a 24 financier who was the guy who cornered the silver 25 market back in the day.

Page 276 1 TODD BLANCHE: He had an island in the 2 Caribbean -- in the Caribbean near Mr. Epstein? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. In the British 4 Virgin Islands. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there was 7 Branson's island there. Now I know that there's an 8 allegation that they met. I -- I think -- I think I 9 remember that I went to Richard Branson's island with 10 Mr. Epstein, and maybe he went another time, but I 11 don't -- I wouldn't characterize Richard Branson and 12 him as friends, but he did go and I think I went with 13 him. 14 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether 15 Mr. Branson ever came to Mr. Epstein's island? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If he did, I was not 17 there. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So -- but it's 20 possible, so -- 21 TODD BLANCHE: Understood. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I wanted to ... 23 TODD BLANCHE: Who else? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Marvin Minsky. He had 25 a group of scientists that he was very, very friendly

Page 277 1 with, all centered around Harvard. So I remember 2 him. 3 Martin Nowak, who's a mathematician. 4 Stephen Jay Gould. I don't know if Stephen Jay Gould 5 was -- came through the Harvard angle, but I know 6 that there was a -- he would -- excuse me, Epstein 7 would have dinners at the house that I was tasked to 8 organize and the scientists were a very major 9 component of that. 10 They weren't social dinners as much as 11 they were scientific. He would discuss whatever he 12 would discuss. But if you were in the area of brain 13 cognition or -- he would invite them to the house and 14 they would come, all of them. All -- any name you 15 can name, they would be there. 16 TODD BLANCHE: So let's talk about that 17 top -- that relation -- those -- those associations 18 or relationships he had with the mathematicians or -- 19 and with Harvard, and I think with MIT, to some 20 extent as well. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Official 22 (indiscernible) MIT too, yeah. 23 TODD BLANCHE: What -- from what you 24 observed, what's the reason behind him having -- 25 developing those ties with Harvard, with MIT, and

Page 278 1 with certain professors and others associated with 2 those institutions? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He really was 4 profoundly interested in that area of science and in 5 the brain, and in -- I mean, if you were in -- 6 Stephen Jay Gould or the major scientist on 7 happiness, I mean, it -- it came, I believe, from a 8 genuine area of interest, not from anything ... 9 TODD BLANCHE: And how did he -- how did 10 he become friends with them? How -- how was he able 11 to spend time with them? Meaning, did he donate to 12 the university and then they were kind of -- 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Certain -- 14 TODD BLANCHE: -- it was mandatory fun for 15 them or did he have relations with them where he 16 would, you know -- 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know the 18 chicken -- 19 TODD BLANCHE: -- host them or -- 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't if the chicken 21 or the egg came first. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But -- but when I met 24 him first, I mean, he was already doing a lot of this 25 stuff. This is not -- I -- I've read, so this is why

Page 279 1 I'm saying this. I was not responsible for these -- 2 for this area of interest. I mean, I certainly -- 3 sorry, just to bounce a second before it slips my 4 mind and I leave something out. 5 There was an institute in New Mexico 6 called -- anyone? The institute of -- it's very 7 famous. We're not talking to the Alamos. 8 Anyway, all right. There's a very famous 9 institute in New Mexico, so you can look it up. 10 You'll -- it'll come to you at the minute you put it 11 in your computer. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there had some of 14 the biggest brains ever. Those -- that relationship 15 came through me, so I -- that's me. And that is 16 because my father was -- one of the major scientific 17 hit up my family fortune, when I had one, came from 18 scientific publishing. 19 And when it started from the thing that 20 you were asking me yesterday, my father was in the 21 Second World War, I told you, and he won the military 22 cross, and then he actually did become what was part 23 of intelligence back in the war. And his job was to 24 interrogate German scientists and prisoners of war. 25 And then that parleyed into business with

Page 280 1 Springer-Verlag and then into Pergamon Press, which 2 was the scientific journals business. And he had an 3 interest -- he believed that it's -- knowledge is 4 what would prevent war. 5 And the biggest scientific discoveries -- 6 well, not all of them, but many of them are coming 7 from the Eastern block and that's how we have the 8 relationship with Santa Fe Institute. 9 And Murray Gell-Mann, specifically. And I 10 introduced Epstein to Murray Gell-Mann. Sorry, to go 11 off on a tangent. 12 TODD BLANCHE: This is at the Santa Fe 13 Institute? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, thank you. And 15 Murray Gell-Mann was there, and Murray Gell-Mann and 16 Epstein got along very, very well. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he was the man of 19 the (unintelligible). Sorry. 20 TODD BLANCHE: So do you know whether -- 21 so while you -- when you meet Mr. Epstein in the 22 early '90s continuing on, so not what he had done 23 before, did he -- why do you think, from what you saw 24 or what you heard, he had the relationship or wanted 25 to have the relationships that he had with Harvard

Page 281 1 and with -- and with MIT? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think that that 3 may have come with Wexner. I'm not sure, but that's 4 something that I think that Wexner maybe had a 5 relationship with Harvard, and that he used that 6 relationship to, I believe, he funded a lot. 7 And if he didn't, that his clients of 8 which Wexner obviously was one, would fund. And he 9 would -- he would then make -- he would arrange the 10 fund or -- 11 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- organize the fund, 13 or I don't know. 14 TODD BLANCHE: I'm going to take -- we'll 15 take a break in a -- in a minute, but just to kind of 16 set us up for what we're going to talk about next. 17 Mr. Ep- -- we talked yesterday morning 18 about Mr. Epstein's kind of business and how he had 19 money. Did he seem to live beyond his means, as far 20 as what he was making? 21 So did you ever get the sense while you 22 were with him, that it was suspicious or curious how 23 he was able to have the funds to, you know, buy, you 24 know, two planes, you know, an island, and 25 New Mexico, you know, the ranch, almost -- almost

Page 282 1 unlimited funds? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: You said it perfectly. 3 I thought it was astonishing, but I didn't have any 4 reason to believe that it came from anything 5 nefarious. 6 I saw him work. I never saw him really do 7 anything, other than be on the phone, there's that, 8 and he had a lot of meetings, but he had a lot of 9 accounts. 10 And he dealt with pretty much every 11 financier that you could care to mention. And if I 12 could have access to the names, I'd be able to tell 13 you which ones you -- I just don't remember them all. 14 But in every bank, Goldman, Lehman, all of 15 them, to my mind anyway. And most of the major 16 businessmen at that time, he was in the Council of 17 Foreign Relations, so you had access. That's an 18 extraordinary list of people. It just is. 19 And then he -- you asked me about his, but 20 I -- so I thought about it last night, how to try and 21 explain what it was and I think the best thing is to 22 focus only on Wexner's business. 23 So I was present for some of their 24 meetings in some of their business, and I listened. 25 And so things that I personally recollect, and I know

Page 283 1 I heard, was that he would -- when I told you 2 yesterday, I think, that he would, no detail was too 3 small, so he would do the contracts with the staff, I 4 think, and I saw that myself. 5 And he also organized all the trusts for 6 all the children, so if Wexner had kids -- and 7 Wexner -- I don't know if he did, he did have 8 children. So every time there was a child, he would 9 create a trust for that child. 10 And I don't -- these were complex 11 financial structures that would contain stocks of the 12 various businesses. He restructured, when I was 13 there, Wexner's business in its entirety, as I 14 recollect. 15 And then not only that, but there were 16 business interests, so Wexner owned or build, or 17 designed, or I don't quite know how to characterize 18 it, but New Albany, which is a center outside of 19 Ohio, Columbus, Ohio, specifically. 20 And he built -- I remember this 21 conversation, he built himself a very large house, 22 like truly enormous and it's one of the biggest 23 private homes I've ever been to. 24 And he built all the houses around him, 25 and I'm like, this is so random, why would you do

Page 284 1 that? And he said to me, well, because I want to 2 make sure that the people around me are my friends -- 3 I want my friends around me and my neighbors. And I 4 was like, well, whatever. Okay, you know. I've been 5 around enormous wealth my whole life, and I've like 6 -- at some point I just say, okay, whatever. I get 7 it, and I don't. And so that's what he did. 8 But Epstein ran New Albany, which included 9 a country club and a golf club and a -- I mean, gosh, 10 your boss is one of the all-time great, you know, 11 businessmen in this area. You know what that is. 12 And he certainly does. 13 So there'd be that, and there was a 14 business business that Epstein -- well, he told me he 15 owned it, but of course, I can't say that for sure, 16 because I don't know, but it's a sports thing. 17 Riddell, is that a business? Riddell's? I thought 18 about it last night. It's red and had hats, helmets. 19 Riddell's? 20 LEAH SAFFIAN: Riddell. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Riddell. Yeah, 22 Riddell's. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Now, how he owned 25 that -- well, he told me he owned it, but how he

Page 285 1 owned that, I -- but that was before I think I came 2 in and he had it, or he said he did. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Got it. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he had other 5 businesses. He had -- I know this notion that he did 6 nothing and he just was a grifter and whatnot. 7 Okay. I'm not going to say that's not 8 true, but it's not what I saw and it's not what I 9 believe is true. Not because it couldn't have been 10 that he didn't grift or whatever the word is off -- 11 off people, but I saw where I thought looked like 12 real work. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Well, why don't we take 14 a -- take a break. Okay. 15 DAVID MARKUS: Yeah. Thank you. 16 SPENCER HORN: All right. The time is now 17 10:35 and we'll take a break. 18 (Off the record at 10:35 a.m.) 19 SPENCER HORN: We are resuming from break. 20 The time is 10:49 on Friday, July 25th. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So we've 22 talked around this issue, but -- talked about it a 23 little bit. I want to spend the next hour or so or 24 however long it takes. 25 When you -- when we -- I want to talk,

Page 286 1 focus kind of exclusively on Epstein and like his 2 criminal conduct with respect to women. 3 Do you -- you said yesterday a couple 4 times that, like, you now kind of recognize or think 5 that there was things that he did that you didn't 6 know about, and that he kept from you or that you 7 didn't see. 8 What did you see? So you said yesterday, 9 and I'm not -- I'm not trying to put words in your 10 mouth, but at some point he was getting massages 11 seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day. 12 Women have said that -- that were there -- that say 13 they were there giving him massages, said that those 14 included some sort of sexual conduct, however, you 15 define that in the broadest sense, not just a 16 traditional massage, regularly. 17 So what do you -- what did you see and 18 hear at the time? And then I think, aside from what 19 you saw and heard at the time, now that you've been 20 through what you've been through and heard people say 21 what they've said, and read what they read, what do 22 you -- where does that leave you in your mind with 23 what happened? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I saw 25 Epstein with women. I mean, what I mean by that is

Page 287 1 he would have women around him, or women on the 2 plane, or women in his house, or -- that's how I'm 3 explaining that. 4 Those women were very interested. What -- 5 my characterization of the interest -- the 6 relationships between all women that I saw with him 7 and him, was characterized by -- excuse me, their 8 interest in him as I would see it. 9 And by that, I mean, I never saw anybody 10 who didn't want to be with him and be with him, maybe 11 socially or whatever. I never saw anybody, not under 12 any form of duress in any type of situation where 13 they were, as I would characterize it, looking 14 uncomfortable or in any way distressed. 15 In the entire time I was with him or 16 traveled with him, I never saw that. So any time I 17 saw anybody with him, they were happy to be with him. 18 He would ask people all the time, whoever you were, 19 to massage his feet. 20 It just was -- he'd be sitting there, and 21 he'd have somebody massage his feet, or squeeze his 22 shoulders, or -- I saw that a lot. It was an 23 ubiquitous interaction, if you will. 24 So I did see that. I saw physicality, but 25 not anything that was -- I don't know how to

Page 288 1 characterize it, anything that looked aggressive, I 2 suppose, to define that. So I never saw an 3 aggressive move. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Well -- 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw anything 6 that was -- 7 TODD BLANCHE: Non-consensual. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. Okay. I 9 never saw anything that was non-consensual. So if 10 he -- well, maybe they didn't -- I never saw anything 11 that looked like they didn't like the hug, or I never 12 saw what I would characterize as anything that was 13 unconsensual. 14 TODD BLANCHE: Did you see -- did you see 15 him either receiving or participating in sexual 16 conduct during massages? Understanding you never saw 17 something nonconsensual. 18 Did you see him engage in sexual conduct 19 during massages? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, you could define 21 sexual conduct as in, I did see women who could have 22 been, you know, less than normally clad for massage, 23 but especially on the island where they would be in a 24 bikini or possibly even topless, yeah, I did see 25 that. So you would --

Page 289 1 TODD BLANCHE: But what about in -- so -- 2 yes, I agree, that's one area. Like -- so women who 3 were either not clothed or topless with just a bottom 4 on. But beyond that, did you see as part of that him 5 touching them? 6 And again, I'm not talking about consent 7 or not consent or age or -- you know, I'm saying like 8 there's multiple, multiple, you know, dozens and 9 dozens of women who have said that they were -- that 10 they engaged in sexual contact. And I agree, there's 11 a broad range of what that can -- how that can be 12 defined, but defining it in the broadest of terms. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So him being physical 14 with women? I did see that, but nothing that was not 15 consensual. And to address the issue of the large 16 number of women who today say that he was 17 non-consensual coercive with them. I'm not sure. 18 I -- in my mind I sort of have to characterize the 19 two distinct areas. There's one where is the women 20 who are not of age. Therefore, anything with them is 21 immediately unconsensual. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Correct, yeah. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So let's start -- I 24 want to define anyone who's underage versus anybody 25 who's over age, because I do think that there's a

Page 290 1 very significant differential between the two. 2 TODD BLANCHE: So does the law. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Okay. So -- 4 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't mean that. 6 TODD BLANCHE: No, no. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not trying to be 8 smart. 9 TODD BLANCHE: I agree with you. Yes, I 10 agree with you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I want to 12 deal with the thing, which is really why we're here. 13 I mean, not that I'm not going to deal with the 14 other, but I just -- 15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- want to make a 17 distinction with underage situation, because there's 18 nothing about that that's right. 19 I never saw anything with anybody who was 20 certainly to be categorical in my -- from my trial. 21 Let's deal with that, because that's 22 something that I can say in -- I never saw that with 23 them at all. And I would say that as -- as 24 described, anyway, in my trial did not happen as 25 described.

Page 291 1 I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do 2 those things. I'm not casting those -- I'm not going 3 to say -- I don't feel comfortable saying that today, 4 given what I now know to be true. So I am not here 5 to defend him. 6 But what I can say is that I did not 7 participate in that activity. And -- 8 TODD BLANCHE: So let's divide this into 9 two areas. Maybe there's more, but we'll start with 10 two areas. One is there was testimony and there's 11 certainly been depositions and public statements, 12 that some of these young women had conversations with 13 you about their age. 14 So, for example, conversations about the 15 fact that they were in high school or conversations 16 about the fact that they wanted to go to college one 17 day, which would necessarily mean -- well, not 18 necessarily, but would be more likely to mean that 19 they were in high school when they talked to you 20 about that. 21 And so, were there times -- were there 22 women that you knew were underage? And I say that 23 because that's different than whether they were 24 sexually abused in any way by Mr. Epstein, just 25 merely their age and going to give him a massage?

Page 292 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I never knew that 2 and I can categorically state that had any child said 3 to me that they were 14, 15, 16, maybe not 17, 4 because 17 in England, I mean, if someone had said 5 they were 17, I don't -- but I've read so much that 6 that did happen. 7 I mean, I just -- I had no -- I would 8 never have permitted such a thing, I would not -- I 9 don't even know what I would have done. 10 TODD BLANCHE: So some of the -- I think 11 even someone who testified at trial, but certainly 12 have publicly talked about, was as young as 14 when 13 she was introduced to Mr. Epstein. 14 In -- in your mind today, you don't -- you 15 kind of reject that that happened, that you saw that, 16 meaning you don't recall any obviously under 18 woman 17 coming to give him a massage? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I believe you're 19 talking about Jane, and I'm -- 20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- very happy to 22 address that. I actually don't think that the 23 testimony is correct. I don't believe -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, look, I don't -- 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. No, no, I'm

Page 293 1 not -- I just wanted to tell you how -- 2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah, I don't want to 3 get into -- 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no, no, I'm not -- 5 TODD BLANCHE: -- he said, she said. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- no, no. Absolutely 7 not. I'm not -- I don't want to go there either. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not going to do 10 that. But I believe that what took place, with a lot 11 of these people, is that there was a slide, right? 12 So there was a zone and I -- he did meet 13 her and I did meet her, and I knew that she was a 14 young child and I knew that she was not an adult, 15 because -- but I don't believe he met her 'til she 16 was 16. 17 So I'm not -- I'm not doing a he said, she 18 said, I'm not doing that, because nobody will. 19 That's not what we're here for. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But he didn't meet her 22 'til she was 16, and the entire testimony of the 14, 23 15, and 16-year-old is, therefore, not accurate. 24 Did I meet her when she was 16 with her 25 mother? I absolutely did. And did I know that she

Page 294 1 was young? I absolutely did. 2 But everything that took place that was 3 alleged at trial at the 14, and 15, and 16, is not 4 accurate. And -- I don't -- 5 TODD BLANCHE: There's testimony or 6 there's -- and again, I'm using testimony in the 7 broadest sense. Some of this is just public 8 statements or something that's come out in civil 9 lawsuits about you and Mr. Epstein giving, like an 10 18 -- you're turning 18 birthday card to somebody, 11 which again, if true would, by definition mean you 12 knew that she was under 18. 13 Do you recall doing that? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not. I mean, no 15 memory of that at all. And I believe that would be 16 the person that called herself Kate has now announced 17 herself in her own podcast for who she really is. 18 Her name is . So I did not meet 19 until actually, she was either 20 or 21. So 20 it would be very hard for me to have given her an 18 21 birthday card. And the testimony -- there's also -- 22 TODD BLANCHE: Do you accept -- 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that slid back. 24 TODD BLANCHE: -- do you accept that at 25 some point, and we talked about this yesterday about DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION

Page 295 1 how Mr. Epstein changed, but at some point, 2 Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I accept. 4 TODD BLANCHE: And I think you said 5 yesterday, but say it again since we're talking about 6 it. Is that something that you, in your mind, one of 7 the areas where he changed from when you first met 8 him until later? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- when -- I just 10 also want it to be clear, I never understood that 11 change to encompass children. I did see from when I 12 met him, he was involved or -- involved or friends 13 with or whatever, however you want to characterize 14 it, with women who were in their 20s. And then the 15 slide to, you know, 18 or younger looking women. But 16 I never considered that this would encompass criminal 17 behavior. It never ... 18 TODD BLANCHE: And so when you read, I 19 guess, two different times, right? One was during 20 the Florida investigation, when -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 22 TODD BLANCHE: -- there were eventually 23 public statements from some of these now women who 24 testified about what they did with Mr. Epstein when 25 they were under 18.

Page 296 1 At that point, did you realize or did you 2 think to yourself, this happened or this could have 3 happened, I missed it, or were you at that point 4 still in the mindset that they were either not 5 telling the truth or were not remembering what 6 happened the way that -- accurately? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's a very fair 8 question. So I think that my view of this at that 9 time, to call it as contemporaneously as it did, 10 because I don't think that stuff came out in public, 11 right? I mean, I may have read things, but I 12 don't -- my first real --- 13 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that's fair. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- memory of that is 15 at the trial. But my viewpoint, if you will, was set 16 from the minute that lied in her civil 17 deposition. And I could never recover from that, 18 because -- 19 TODD BLANCHE: What are you -- what are 20 you -- which lie, what are you referring to? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Her entire 22 characterization -- 23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- of -- no, I don't 25 remember how she came and whether I did, -- DOJ REDACTION

Page 297 1 TODD BLANCHE: I see. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- but I'm talking 3 about the first time she came to Epstein's house, 4 which I knew -- 5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- to be false. So 7 from that first lie of that description, I could 8 never recover from that. 9 TODD BLANCHE: I understand. Okay. So -- 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that tainted -- 11 sorry. Just so that we clear it, tainted, then, the 12 testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post 13 that, because I had my own personal experience, which 14 I knew to be false. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And the reason why I 16 think -- and I said to Mr. Markus that -- this 17 morning that we were going to talk about this, 18 because when I think about you and the public's 19 perception of Mr. Epstein, the public is left with 20 the view that nobody in the world knows what really 21 happened except for you, okay? 22 And now you've explained, the last day and 23 a half, how some of that's just a misperception, 24 because you weren't -- you didn't have a key to his 25 house, you weren't around as much as maybe everybody

Page 298 1 claims you were, okay? 2 But there still is this perception out 3 there that, oh my gosh, if -- if we could talk to 4 Ms. Maxwell, we would know how horrible Mr. Epstein 5 was or how misperceived he was. Whatever the truth 6 is about Mr. Epstein. 7 And the challenge in my mind, just to 8 be -- I told you I would tell you when I had 9 issues -- and the challenge in my mind is that so 10 many women have -- have said that Mr. Epstein 11 sexually assaulted them, whether juveniles or adults, 12 that I don't find it -- you know, at some -- that's 13 persuasive, right, that that happened. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So -- 15 TODD BLANCHE: And so if that's persuasive 16 then -- and I think it's without -- beyond 17 contestation that he preferred younger women -- 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- 19 TODD BLANCHE: -- and it's also beyond, 20 I think at this point, there were certainly 21 circumstances that underage women -- well, I don't 22 want to say that you agree with me on that. 23 I certainly believe that there were 24 younger age women that were abused by him, okay? And 25 so -- and then so the layer that I want you to --

Page 299 1 that I really want to have a frank discussion about, 2 is some of these women have said, oh, yes, you know, 3 Ms. Maxwell was there, you know, to varying degrees. 4 She saw me there, she -- the door was open when I was 5 there. And then much more egregious, right? That 6 you participated and that you were part of it. 7 And so what I really want you to have an 8 opportunity to say to us, is where on the spectrum 9 the truth is. Whether it's somewhere in the middle, 10 whether it's one extreme or another extreme, 11 understanding. In my mind, I'm talking about 1994 or 12 '5, to whenever, late '90s or early 2000s. 13 DAVID MARKUS: And let me just interrupt. 14 All I would say is, we're not here to say anything 15 one way or the other about Epstein. 16 I agree with you that the evidence is 17 overwhelming against him, and he -- he is his own 18 person and has to deal with that. But Ghislaine can 19 speak about what she knows -- 20 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. 21 DAVID MARKUS: -- and from her point of 22 view and what she did. 23 And that's what you can talk about, 24 Ghislaine. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.

Page 300 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think it's 2 helpful to put this on -- the time on the calendar, 3 because I think without that we, we're lost. So I 4 would say we'll go from the beginning '91? No. '2? 5 No. '3? No. '4? No. '5? No. '6? No. 6 In that time frame, you have the 7 allegations of Jane, who I dispute. I don't think he 8 met her until she was -- 9 TODD BLANCHE: Let's not talk about 10 individuals. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no, no, I'm just 12 saying. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah. I'm with you. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But there's only -- 15 but there's only -- so in that time period, I am only 16 aware of her. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm aware of a girl, 19 , who said, but -- and and , 20 those -- I don't know of any others. 21 And if there are other people who are 22 making allegations about, I don't -- I'm not even -- 23 I'm not actually aware of them. I may have read them 24 in the -- but I don't know. 25 So I think in the early '90s period, I DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION

Page 301 1 think I'm fairly confident, and I can say that at 2 least as characterized, it's just -- it's just false. 3 It's just -- it didn't happen as said. 4 Now, did it -- did it happen -- did he -- 5 did he involve himself? I knew about Jane, because I 6 saw her come to the house. But I saw her with her 7 mother. I know that her allegations are that there 8 were orgies, for instance. But the people that she 9 suggests were in her orgies, didn't even work for 10 Epstein until '98 or '99. 11 Did he do orgies with those people? I 12 don't know anybody who was there who said that they 13 did. I certainly didn't see it. I can't say that 14 that happened. Did she do it with someone else? I 15 don't know. 16 The stories really start -- the 17 allegations really begin with . And I think 18 that you have to shift his behavior, such as it was 19 bar, there was one in California who made an 20 allegation. 21 There was a woman who said that she -- and 22 she's -- I didn't know about. So I think I would 23 call her the first person. I'd be aware of him using 24 his position to -- 25 TODD BLANCHE: But -- and sorry to DOJ REDACTION

Page 302 1 interrupt you. But I just want to -- I don't want -- 2 I don't want to have you -- I don't think it's 3 helpful for us -- 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 5 TODD BLANCHE: -- have you kind of address 6 each allegation. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 8 TODD BLANCHE: I want you to clear your 9 mind and just tell the truth about it. So I'm not 10 saying you're not telling the truth. 11 I'm saying just putting aside what other 12 people have said, or what their lawyers have said, or 13 what they testified to or, you know, the rumors in 14 the press, push those aside, you were there. 15 And so when you go back to that time 16 period, '92, '93, '99, 2000, 2001, during that time 17 period, what did you see when it comes to young women 18 and massages? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. Sorry. 20 All right. So I saw him receive massages. 21 He had regular masseuses in the '90s, people who were 22 standard and who traveled with him, and I saw that. 23 He was living in the Iranian house, and 24 now that I look back, he had -- I didn't stay there, 25 but I would go to manage the house. I would see

Page 303 1 women, models, or people that he would have come to 2 the house. 3 I -- I know that I thought that he was 4 with Eva still at that time. That's what I believed. 5 And then subsequently believed that even 6 though she married him, I actually subsequently 7 believed that the baby that she had was his. 8 DAVID MARKUS: Can I interrupt for one 9 second? 10 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Of course. 11 DAVID MARKUS: Can I just ask some basic 12 top line questions? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 14 DAVID MARKUS: Were you ever in a massage 15 room with him and a masseuse? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 17 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Who -- when was 18 that? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he would come in 20 sometimes, and he would say, like, give her a massage 21 here, or he would grab my -- you know, but not often. 22 I mean, he did come in from time to time. 23 DAVID MARKUS: Were you ever in a massage 24 room with him with a masseuse that was naked or 25 giving him any sexual favors?

Page 304 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw that. 2 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That I remember. 4 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Did you -- did you 5 ever -- did any of the masseuses ever discuss with 6 you giving -- that they gave sexual favors to 7 Epstein? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 9 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Did you ever see an 10 underage girl go into a massage room with 11 Mr. Epstein? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 13 DAVID MARKUS: If you had seen that, what 14 would you have done? Would you have left? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't even conceive. 16 I can't even conceive of -- I can't imagine what I 17 would have done. 18 DAVID MARKUS: All right. I'm sorry. 19 TODD BLANCHE: No. That's okay. 20 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe 22 Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I mean, when I'd 24 seen him on a massage table, I had seen him 25 masturbate. I don't know if there was a masseuse

Page 305 1 present, but I've seen him on a massage -- 2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry, I just -- 4 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever see him 5 masturbate with a masseuse -- you know, with a naked 6 woman, either giving him a massage or reporting to 7 give him a massage? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember 9 seeing that. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Did you give him massages 11 by the way? I mean, there's a photo of you rubbing 12 his feet, and I think, but -- 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never -- I certainly 14 have been in the massage room with him, and I have 15 certainly rubbed his feet when he was -- we're 16 talking, but I was not a masseuse and I didn't 17 perform massage on him. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- along -- during 19 the -- over the years, did you pay the masseuses? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was typically not 21 my job, but if there was nobody else, normally -- so 22 in Palm Beach, the houseman would give the money. 23 And in New York, he would do that, because 24 I wouldn't be in New York when he -- I mean, I don't 25 remember ever paying a masseuse in New York.

Page 306 1 TODD BLANCHE: So it wasn't -- 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But maybe -- 3 TODD BLANCHE: -- your -- it wasn't your 4 job -- 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 6 TODD BLANCHE: -- on a regular math -- 7 basis to pay the masseuse. So if there was a 8 masseuse seven days a week, it wasn't expected that 9 seven days a week you would be the one handing them 10 money? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- mostly I would 12 not. I'm not saying I never did it, because that 13 wouldn't be true. But it was not my job to pay them. 14 I mostly recall he would either pay them himself, he 15 would have money or the houseman, and I think some of 16 them would have probably received checks. 17 TODD BLANCHE: And so just picking up on 18 what Mr. Markus was just asking you, did you 19 participate in sexual activity with him with a 20 masseuse, like at the same time? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 22 TODD BLANCHE: And so the testi- -- I 23 don't know if there's testimony, but the women who 24 have said that that happened, categorically, that's 25 not true?

Page 307 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is categorically 2 not true. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- moving past 4 the -- and moving into the 2000s -- 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I just want to 6 say that I have been -- I mean, I remember there'd be 7 times when he'd be getting a massage and I would be 8 in the room, I could be on his feet, and somebody 9 else could be on his feet, and we could be talking. 10 So there is that. 11 TODD BLANCHE: But that's not -- you're -- 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. 13 TODD BLANCHE: -- not talking about 14 something that's sexual, you're talking about 15 literally just rubbing his feet? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I mean -- 19 TODD BLANCHE: But that's not what I'm 20 talking about, I'm saying -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Well, they 22 could be -- the -- sometimes the women might be 23 topless who were giving that. So you could say that 24 was sexual in that context. 25 TODD BLANCHE: No, I'm talking about the

Page 308 1 repeated reports of certain sex acts happening with 2 you present and even participating? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- did -- in the 5 2000s time period, so moving a little more recently 6 when you talked about it yesterday, about how your 7 relationship with Mr. Epstein changed and was 8 changing and you ultimately met somebody else. 9 Did you observe any, you know, massages or 10 young women giving him massages later on? So after 11 2000, 2001 time period? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm sure I did. 13 TODD BLANCHE: And was there anything 14 different about what you observed during that period 15 and the '90s, as far as the frequency, his conduct 16 towards them? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think the frequency 18 increased. I think he went from one to two in that 19 time period. And -- but I did not see -- I have no 20 recollection of ever seeing a child entering the 21 house and giving him a massage. I -- at that time, 22 he had moved me out of the main house. 23 I had moved into an office with John 24 Alessi, the former butler, under the stairs. So I 25 had an office where I would be that was not part of

Page 309 1 that -- part of the house. 2 If I saw people, and I'm not saying I 3 didn't see people come to give him a massage, that 4 wouldn't be true either. But if I saw someone, let's 5 say, I wouldn't -- I don't remember ever seeing 6 anybody that I would characterize as a child, no. 7 Specifically someone who accused me of seeing her at 8 the time when she came. 9 If I did see her, and I don't believe I 10 did see her or meet her at all, but if she did, she 11 was as her -- she's described herself now, was very 12 mature and looked in her 20s. 13 So could somebody have come that was more 14 mature looking than the allegation of what she did 15 look like, with a photograph that was produced as 16 evidence? Yes. But I never recall at any time 17 seeing what I would characterize as a child coming to 18 give him a massage and going upstairs. Did I see 19 people come? I absolutely did. 20 Did I -- I just didn't see children. I 21 didn't see anybody I would think of as a child. And 22 if I had seen a child, I wouldn't -- I'm not sure 23 what I would have done. 24 TODD BLANCHE: Well, did you -- just 25 talking, like coming out a little bit of just bigger

Page 310 1 picture, do you -- at the time that you were in his 2 life, did -- do you -- was he a -- did he seem to you 3 to be a sexual deviant or, I don't know what the 4 right way to describe it. 5 But when you say to me, he was getting 6 massages every single day, right? So young women 7 were everywhere. Multiple massages on some days. 8 Flew with the women to the island, to New York, 9 Paris. There's always women, they're always rubbing 10 him, giving him massages. I think it's -- it would 11 be an understatement to say that that's not normal? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I agree. 13 TODD BLANCHE: We've all kind of been part 14 of the Epstein story over the past several years, but 15 you were there at the time. Okay? 16 What was it like at the time? I mean, was 17 he a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing? 18 Was he protective of how he looked publicly, image 19 wise? Like at the time, what was it like? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think if he had been 21 creepy, like, as you would define, and you would 22 expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be 23 creepy, I don't think the women would have been 24 there. 25 I don't think that they thought of him as

Page 311 1 creepy. And if they did, I never saw them behave 2 like he was being weird. Was it a lot? Yes, it was 3 for sure. I found it overwhelming, and I couldn't 4 understand why it was interesting, because to me, 5 it's not interesting. 6 But he, as he defined it, he found it 7 invigorating. He liked being with younger people and 8 not just younger people. I'm just saying because 9 they gave him ideas, and they were up to date on 10 music and -- 11 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, but that's different, 12 like, a masseuse coming every day. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm just telling you 14 what he was saying to me. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, to me, I just 17 found it a drag and difficult and annoying. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But understand I 20 wasn't the only person present. So this time in the 21 2000s, you're talking about other people, like Sarah 22 Kellen, who was around, who interfaced with him. 23 I didn't have to -- she was really 24 interfacing with Epstein at this point in time in his 25 life. She was running his -- she was his assistant.

Page 312 1 And so I didn't have to -- 2 TODD BLANCHE: That's a fair point. But 3 move beyond the -- his assistants or the folks that 4 work with him. What about his friends and the people 5 that were associated with him? 6 It couldn't be -- it doesn't -- I don't 7 understand how that -- how this is an after fact of 8 Mr. Epstein. So once he's arrested in Florida, it 9 becomes part of his story. And then later on he's 10 charged in Southern District, and then here we are 11 now in 2025. 12 But he was a very successful, hardworking 13 guy, and he had a lot of clients, and he flew with 14 them on vacations and went to the island. It 15 doesn't -- I don't understand how he was able to hide 16 this, what seems to me to be some sort of sexual 17 fixation or issue -- 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't -- 19 TODD BLANCHE: -- from -- from others? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think he did 21 hide it. I -- that's the answer. And I think that 22 the people around him, I think, myself included -- 23 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- obviously, 25 normalized his behavior on a number of fronts. One,

Page 313 1 I think it -- because it was a self -- because so 2 many people saw it of so many -- of such a high 3 caliber down that never seemed to think it would -- 4 well, if they thought it was strange probably, they 5 never said it at the time. So it became sort of like 6 it was his thing, right? He was always around with 7 women. 8 Now, you don't -- I understand that it's 9 very unattractive, especially in light of everything 10 that we know today. But at the time, the only way I 11 can sort of try and describe it is through Sex and 12 the City, the movie, the show on telly, where the -- 13 this is -- that lifestyle is described on the TV show 14 constantly. 15 There are always these women around and 16 men who like it. And a lot of the men that I know 17 like women, and so maybe not as overtly as Epstein, 18 but he was overt, not covert, except obviously in the 19 context of the criminal behavior. 20 So what we're discussing now, there's a 21 difference between the criminal behavior and the 22 non-criminal. But you don't like the lifestyle, I 23 concur. 24 I agree. Especially now. And I -- I own 25 my side of that fence that I was there and that I saw

Page 314 1 his behavior with women and didn't challenge him or 2 do something. 3 But I don't -- I don't think back in the 4 '90s or the 2000s, we've had a cultural shift. And 5 the cultural shift, I think is a very important part 6 of the analysis here. Not because I'm trying to 7 justify this, because I'm not, and I'm not trying to, 8 and I absolutely am not here to do the poor me 9 program. So please, don't misunderstand this. 10 However, in the 19- -- 2000s, when this 11 behavior was going down, in the initial blush of the 12 Palm Beach investigation, the women who brought the 13 women who were underage 17, 16, I believe if I'm -- 14 my memory serves, were actually targets of the 15 investigation and could have been charged with 16 prostitution and trafficking, I would -- if 17 trafficking was even a law. 18 So you're taking -- you're taking 19 behavior. And I did introduce him to women, I did, 20 but not underage women. I understand that there are 21 allegations. I have read them about myself going to 22 schools. I can categorically tell you that I have 23 never, in my life, gone to a school to pick up a 24 child. Well, not for this purpose. I mean, like my 25 stepchildren, and all, but okay. Sorry, just --

Page 315 1 TODD BLANCHE: No, I understand. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Thank you. I 3 just want to be clear that I'm not trying to be cute 4 or anything. 5 But -- and I did look for masseuses, I -- 6 I did. I went to spas and if I met somebody who said 7 she was a masseuse, I did not check their 8 credentials. And of course, if she was attractive, I 9 did introduce her, yes. 10 If I met friends who were interested, he 11 was constantly asking me for -- to meet new and 12 interesting people. I did -- I did do that. 13 At the time, I viewed it as -- well, first 14 of all, part of my job, I think, or part of my 15 responsibility, if you were, to introduce -- because 16 it wasn't just women. If I met somebody who was 17 interesting, like Murray Gell-Mann or who I thought 18 he would like, I did that. So it's not exclusively, 19 but he did. And I did do that. 20 TODD BLANCHE: So -- but then -- so I want 21 to layer on top of what you just said, what we talked 22 about yesterday more, but a little bit today already, 23 which is everybody that was around him besides you, 24 like his friends. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.