Page 101 1 Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper, Dan Abramson. 2 I don't know if in the '90s Tom Pritzker, 3 Ace, Jimmy Cayne, Lou Ranieri. I mean, there were -- 4 TODD BLANCHE: What about the royal 5 family? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. He didn't know 7 them in the '90s. 8 TODD BLANCHE: What about the -- the -- 9 what about Prince Andrew? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Didn't know him in the 11 '90s. 12 TODD BLANCHE: When did -- 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well -- is that 14 right? 15 TODD BLANCHE: I wouldn't know. I do not 16 know. So I don't want you to have -- to worry about 17 exact dates. You're -- you're not positive about 18 that. But you don't have a specific recollection of 19 that being in the '90s? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I can -- I can 23 date it for you, I think, but I can't give you -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: That's okay. I think 25 that's fine. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 102 1 So with respect to just -- and we'll -- 2 we'll take a break in a minute to get some food. But 3 just with respect to Mr. -- with respect to the 4 individuals you just talked about. So again, focus 5 on the '90s. 6 And so the people that I'm talking about 7 right now, and we might add some names later. So 8 we're talking about the -- the clients that he worked 9 with, which you've mentioned several of. And I know 10 that that wasn't exhaustive, but you mentioned 11 several of them. 12 And then the -- the kind of what -- what I 13 called famous friends, but the -- the prominent 14 individuals that were in his life in the '90s. 15 Did -- did -- does any stick out in your mind as 16 having received massages? All of them. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Henry Rosovsky 18 received a massage. 19 TODD BLANCHE: And why do you -- why does 20 that stick out in your memory? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because I saw him in a 22 bathrobe at 71st Street, and he had received a 23 massage, he told me. 24 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether 25 that -- whether there was any -- whether the masseuse MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 103 1 was naked during that massage? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wouldn't have any 3 idea. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he -- 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I doubt it. He was 6 like in his 80s. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I doubt it. He was 9 like in his 80s. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- but do you 11 know -- notwithstanding his age -- 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Minsky, sorry. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Say that again. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Minsky was another 15 person. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether, for 17 example, President Clinton ever received a massage? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't believe he 19 did. 20 TODD BLANCHE: And what makes you say you 21 don't believe he did? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, because I 23 don't -- so that's a good question. The time that 24 Epstein and President Clinton spent together, the 25 only times I believe -- well, obviously they MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 104 1 traveled. There was that, you know, the plane, they 2 went on the plane 26 times or whatever. That would 3 be one journey. 4 So they spent time on the plane together, 5 and I don't believe there was ever a massage on the 6 plane. So that would've been the only time that I 7 think that President Clinton could have even received 8 a massage. And he didn't, because I was there. 9 TODD BLANCHE: And you mentioned that 10 early -- in the very beginning of the conversation, 11 you mentioned President Trump in the early '90s. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 13 TODD BLANCHE: What -- what's -- what did 14 you observe, as far as President Trump, and his 15 relationship with you or Mr. Epstein? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I just want to 17 say for my relationship with President Trump -- 18 relationship's a big word -- but I just want to say 19 that I met him or I believe I may have, because of my 20 father in the '90s. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Yep. Okay. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my father liked him 23 very much, and he was loved -- really liked his wife 24 as well, because we were both Czechoslovakian. 25 And as far as I'm concerned, President MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 105 1 Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me. 2 And I just want to say that I find -- I -- I admire 3 his extraordinary achievement in becoming the 4 President now. And I like him, and I've always liked 5 him. So that is the sum and substance of my entire 6 relationship with him. 7 TODD BLANCHE: What about Mr. Epstein's 8 relationship with him? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know how they 10 met, and I don't know how they became friends. I 11 certainly saw them together and I remember the few 12 times I observed them together, but they were 13 friendly. I mean, they seemed friendly. 14 TODD BLANCHE: Was that in social settings 15 or was that in private settings? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe I only ever 17 saw them in social settings. I don't recall any 18 private settings. 19 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever -- have you 20 ever been to Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have. 22 TODD BLANCHE: In what time period are you 23 thinking about when you say yes? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember when 25 the President purchased Mar-a-Lago. So from whenever MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 106 1 it turned into the club, I went there and I was -- 2 loved going there. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- did you go there 4 alone or with Mr. Epstein? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mostly alone. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know where -- 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the times I went 8 there it was for an event, maybe once or twice. 9 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether 10 Mr. Epstein ever went there? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I believe he did, 12 but again, we really were -- he -- he didn't take me 13 with him all the time. So he would go and -- oh, 14 right. He never -- I never -- well, he did from time 15 to time, but he would go alone. I think he would 16 maybe go himself to the spa. I certainly did. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe 18 President Trump receive a massage? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe -- you 21 said that you -- you were -- I mean, have you seen 22 the -- there's photographs, public photographs of 23 Mr. Epstein and President Trump together. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 25 TODD BLANCHE: And there's photographs MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 107 1 of -- I think you're -- you're in some of the 2 photographs -- 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 4 TODD BLANCHE: -- as well. Those all 5 appear to be social settings. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Do you -- 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's -- that's my 9 memory. They were social settings. I don't know 10 Epstein's -- if he had -- whatever the nature of the 11 President's friendship, if you will, or however you 12 want to define that with Epstein, I was -- never 13 witnessed. 14 I think they were friendly like people are 15 in social settings. I don't -- I don't think they 16 were close friends or I certainly never witnessed the 17 President in any of -- I don't recall ever seeing him 18 in his house, for instance. 19 I actually never saw the President in any 20 type of massage setting. I never witnessed the 21 President in any inappropriate setting in any way. 22 The President was never inappropriate with anybody. 23 In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman 24 in all respects. 25 TODD BLANCHE: When's the last time you MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 108 1 think you saw, in person, President Trump? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Um, it was -- it's -- 3 it's been a long time. Probably not -- sometime in 4 the -- beginning -- mid -- mid 2000s maybe. And it 5 would only have been a social setting, as far as I 6 recall. 7 TODD BLANCHE: And did you ever hear 8 Mr. Epstein or anybody say that President Trump had 9 done anything inappropriate with masseuses or with 10 anybody in your world? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely never, in 12 any context. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether 14 masseuses from Mar-a-Lago's spa ended up giving 15 massages to -- private massages to Mr. Epstein? I'm 16 not asking for what you may have read, but from -- at 17 the time, from your personal knowledge, do you know 18 whether that's true? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I don't -- I 20 don't recall. Is it possible? Yes. But I don't 21 remember -- I don't remember that. So I don't want 22 to -- I don't recall that, but it's possible. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Do you have a recollection 24 of you ever recruiting a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago spa 25 to give -- to go give a private massage to MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 109 1 Mr. Epstein? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I've never recruited a 3 masseuse from Mar-a-Lago for that, as far as I 4 remember. I can't ever recollect doing that. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So what -- what I 6 think we should do now, it's about 12:15. We'll take 7 a -- we'll take a break and we will come back in a 8 little bit. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 11 (Break at 12:15 p.m. to 12:59 p.m.) 12 SPENCER HORN: Good afternoon. We are 13 continuing the recorded proffer interview of 14 Ms. Maxwell. The time is 12:59, Thursday, July 24th. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So just to continue 16 what we're talking about, Ms. Maxwell, still focused 17 on the '90s time period with -- understanding that 18 could spill over in the early 2000s. But still that 19 part of your -- of your life with Mr. Epstein. 20 There's been public reporting about 21 conduct by Mr. Epstein and others at Little Saint 22 James. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 24 TODD BLANCHE: So can you talk about the 25 frequency with which you went there, and address some MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 110 1 of those -- some of the reporting, namely around 2 young masseuses or young women who would be present 3 and what you observed -- 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 5 TODD BLANCHE: -- relating to them, and 6 then I'll ask questions around that. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So if I'm right, he 8 purchased the island in 1996 and he was friendly with 9 the owners. And originally, we went to the island as 10 guests of the owners. And then I guess at some point 11 the owners told him -- he -- they wanted to sell and 12 he decided to purchase it. 13 So the island was very rustic. I loved 14 it. He, of course, had completely different ideas. 15 And I would say there was none of what you were 16 describing at that early period of time. 17 So the frequency was -- was often. We're 18 often on the island, because he loved it. He really, 19 really loved it. And we would, -- we would go all 20 the time. Mostly all the early phase was based on 21 improvements that could be made on the island. 22 Always going with new architects, new 23 designers, new construction people. I'd say the 24 first two years, almost every trip, not every one, 25 but almost every trip contained some -- an individual MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 111 1 who would be brought on board to have an opinion as 2 to how to -- I don't want to use the word "improve 3 the island," because I don't think you could improve 4 it, but to -- I can't think what the word would be. 5 To -- what's the word I'm looking for? To develop 6 it. Sorry. That's the word. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Develop -- develop the 9 island. That's the word I'm looking for. 10 So -- so there were trips, constant trips 11 with that in mind. And I would say now if we are 12 moving to the late '90s, '96, '97 I definitely 13 witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein's behavior, 14 and a modification, if you will. 15 Where in the past, in the early '90s, I 16 don't remember traveling so much with other people. 17 There would be a masseuse or a yoga person, but now 18 he started to travel with more, always a masseuse. 19 Whereas in the past it wasn't always a masseuse or 20 always an instructor. There was now starting to be 21 always an individual or a friend or whatever. 22 There's always a, like, maybe the word 23 would be entourage, but these were always people in 24 their 20s, late 20s, early 30s in my -- as my memory 25 sees it, as I -- as I observe that time. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 112 1 And he tasked me with finding a local 2 masseuse for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes, 3 even though I say he would always travel with an 4 entourage, sometimes he didn't, and he wanted to have 5 a massage locally. 6 So I visited the mass- -- the spas that 7 were local in St. Thomas and in St. John. And if I 8 met someone, a man or a woman, actually, because it 9 was difficult to find somebody in St. Thomas, it's 10 not exactly, you know. So, and I did find a couple 11 of people who would come. 12 So that's how they came, because also it 13 was a schlep. So if you had somebody who came, it 14 would be -- you would have to, you know, boat ride 15 and you -- several hours. It wasn't just a -- it's 16 not like arriving with your massage table and stuff. 17 So there was that. So I did do that. 18 TODD BLANCHE: So did, over the years, 19 males also give massages to Mr. Epstein? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I did say, I 21 don't think -- at the beginning, definitely. And I 22 would say towards sort of, again, late '90s, I don't 23 remember any men. They were at the beginning, I 24 think in that -- towards the late '90s, I cannot 25 think of any men. I only think of women. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 113 1 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- well, you talk 2 about entourage flying, right now we're talking about 3 to the island. Did you observe any sexual, I was 4 going to say misconduct, but any sexual -- any sex at 5 all whatsoever on the plane? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never on the plane, 7 no. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Was there a part of the 9 plane that was closed off from others where 10 Mr. Epstein could go and get a massage or whatever? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. Okay. So 12 that's a good question. So there were two planes. 13 So you had the -- there was a Gulfstream, and that's 14 open plan. So anything -- I mean, there was a sofa 15 that turned into a bed. And he did sleep on that. 16 And then -- but in the Boeing, which he 17 flew on a lot, there was -- his area could be closed 18 off with a door. And behind that door there would 19 be -- there was a bedroom and an office. So if that 20 door was shut, you wouldn't see it. 21 TODD BLANCHE: But do you -- so if you 22 never -- so -- but you never observed Mr. Epstein 23 engaging in sex or getting a massage with somebody -- 24 with whether the masseuse was not clothed on the 25 plane? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 114 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't say that. I 2 might have -- 3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I definitely might, 5 either both in the Gulfstream or in the -- 6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- in the -- I'm sure 8 I did, but it's not -- I can't -- 9 TODD BLANCHE: That's fair. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I'm absolutely 11 sure I did. I must have, because, you know, he was 12 so obsessed of someone rubbing his feet or -- just -- 13 when you ask me about massages, I want to be clear. 14 I generally -- what I think of that is 15 somebody on a massage table, but other people might 16 think of it as something different. You know, you 17 could have someone rubbing his feet or his shoulder. 18 I saw that all the time. That I did. But sep- -- 19 that's separate from being on a massage table. 20 TODD BLANCHE: How -- again, I know we're 21 talking about a decade-long period, but during the 22 period we're talking about, in a seven-day week, how 23 often would Mr. Epstein get a massage? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In the '90s, when 25 we're talking, he would get one every day. I think, MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 115 1 as that time progressed, he would get one, maybe 2 twice a day. I do want to say that there was maybe a 3 reason that things altered or morphed or progressed, 4 and it is maybe part of the reason, also, that I -- 5 he and I, our relationship or have a, somebody wants 6 to call it altered. 7 And he started doing testosterone and that 8 altered his character. And I believe that started in 9 the late '90s. And I believe that the FBI has his 10 medical records and you may see that on his medical 11 records. Yes. 12 TODD BLANCHE: So you believe that he 13 started taking testosterone in the '90s, and when you 14 say that altered his behavior, you're saying it 15 wanted to -- made him get more massages or that was 16 just one part of what changed about him? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he became more 18 aggressive. 19 TODD BLANCHE: I see. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I think that he 21 maybe -- well, now I'm just imagining that the 22 testosterone altered his desires or something, does 23 that -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: And so when, given what 25 you've said the past couple hours about his kind of MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 116 1 progression or change, let's focus on that time 2 period, so the more towards the late '90s. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The testosterone. 4 Yeah, okay. 5 TODD BLANCHE: So '96, '97, '98, you know, 6 toward -- 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. 8 TODD BLANCHE: -- when you've said that he 9 changed. Did you know flat out that he was having 10 sex or otherwise some sort of sexual conduct with 11 masseuses regularly? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Flat out? No, I 13 denied that. I couldn't imagine that he would but I 14 think looking back now, that -- I did not. But I 15 started to suspect that he was not faithful. Seems 16 ludicrous but that's what I thought. 17 TODD BLANCHE: But if -- look, if -- if 18 he's flying from Palm Beach to -- to St. Thomas or if 19 he's flying all over the country to New Mexico or to 20 New York, or even in Palm Beach and there's young 21 women, putting aside whether they're under the age of 22 18 or in their 20s, every day at the house, multiple 23 masseuses -- multiple massages on some days, you're 24 interacting with the masseuses constantly. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Huh? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 117 1 TODD BLANCHE: Or maybe that's not right. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's not right. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Let me take back what I 4 just said. Ignore that part. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 6 TODD BLANCHE: But you understand that he 7 is getting massages every day, sometimes multiple 8 times a day. The -- by the late '90s, it's all 9 women, presumably they're -- some of them are new, 10 but they're also repeat masseuses. 11 What did you -- I mean, you had to know at 12 that point that there was something going on beyond 13 just, he really needed to get massaged. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So -- very fair 15 question. There's two things. The first is the 16 person that he saw the most at that period of time 17 was in her 40s. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And she was with him 20 all the time. And I'm, like, married as well -- 21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And as -- I'm square. 23 And it never occurred -- well, I don't believe it 24 occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he 25 would be having relations. And he was with her -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 118 1 that was the person he had the most massages, yoga, 2 and that -- with -- at that time in the '90s period. 3 The second thing is that -- is he told me 4 he didn't -- he had difficulty having an erection, 5 and I believed him. 6 TODD BLANCHE: When you said he said that, 7 you mean he regularly told you that? Like he -- 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: When I first -- 9 because when I didn't have sex with him after the 10 first time, and it took -- so I asked him, was it me? 11 And he told me it was him. 12 And I had never, up until this moment in 13 my life, I -- as if I'm not stupid. I'm very bright. 14 I've had an excellent education. I traveled all over 15 the world. I had had boyfriends, but I had never met 16 or understood that somebody could be so -- would lie 17 to me about -- I could -- it never occurred to me. 18 I didn't have a frame of context within my 19 life experience where somebody would be so 20 manipulative and devious with me. I just -- and 21 plus, I just didn't have -- I just -- and I was happy 22 not to have sex, because I have a condition that 23 doesn't lend itself to that. 24 TODD BLANCHE: Does -- when you learned -- 25 so fast forward just for a moment to the 2007, '08, MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 119 1 '09 time period and he's arrested and charged and 2 there's all kinds of press around his purported 3 contact, at that point -- at that point, did you 4 accept that that was true? Meaning, did it make 5 sense at that point? 6 When you were reading about women who 7 claimed that they had been abused, even underage 8 and -- at that point, did you think to yourself, 9 well, geez, that makes sense now that I think about 10 it or no? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: First of all, I 12 didn't -- that's -- I only read what was in the 13 newspapers. I didn't have any other thing. And I'm 14 embarrassed to say it, I didn't -- I didn't believe 15 it. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Right. I mean, you 17 didn't believe that the accusations were true at the 18 time. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. So let's -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And sorry, I need to 22 say, even if they were true, I believe that he was 23 duped and he didn't know that they were -- whatever 24 that was in the papers at that time, whether they 25 said that they were 17 or, I didn't -- it didn't MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 120 1 register, because -- 2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- along with all of 4 those -- well, not in 2006, but later when the more 5 salacious and other allegations came out, I knew were 6 utterly false, which then just reinforced my belief 7 that the rest was not true. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Let me ask you a question 9 about the age of the masseuses over the years. It -- 10 I think in my mind, there's a difference between you 11 knowing or not knowing that a masseuse is under the 12 age of 18 and coming to give a massage, and you 13 knowing that Mr. Epstein, you know, sexually abused 14 the underage person or made her strip or something 15 like that, meaning -- and I want to understand 16 whether you believe that nobody that came to give 17 massages, none of the women were under 18 or that you 18 didn't focus on their age, but you -- you were more 19 focused on whether any underage woman was abused by 20 him. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it's better to 22 answer this question with corroborating evidence and 23 then go back and explain, so that I frame -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- your understanding MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 121 1 of what I'm saying. Of the -- my understanding is 2 that in 2000 and, let's say 2008, they had 3 interviewed 44 women, let's say, or around that 4 number. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: You have to 7 understand, not a single one of those 44 women 8 mentioned me in a single report. And it's not 9 because -- go back. 10 They didn't mention me in their report 11 because they never met me, they never saw me, and 12 they never interacted with me. So to go back to your 13 question, it's not that I thought one way or another, 14 it's that I didn't see them. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I see. Okay. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that -- 17 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no, that's helpful. 18 So -- 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not -- and but 20 when I say not one, not single one of those reports 21 talked about me. And I just want to clarify exactly, 22 because I'm obviously aware that one of those girls 23 is -- was one of the witnesses in my trial, 24 specifically . 25 To use her own testimony so that you don't DOJ REDACTION MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 122 1 have to -- 2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- hear my point of 4 view. It's better if it comes from her own words and 5 that way there's no second-guessing whether -- what 6 I'm saying. 7 herself said that 8 recruited her, brought her and 9 trained her. Those are own words. 10 Where was I going with this? 11 TODD BLANCHE: That you were -- that you 12 didn't know. I mean, I assume you were saying that 13 you weren't -- 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh yeah, sorry, sorry, 15 sorry, sorry. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. That's okay -- 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm trying to remember 18 where I was. 19 TODD BLANCHE: -- that's all right. It's 20 okay. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really do have some 22 slow cognition issues. 23 The -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: So she says -- she 25 testifies that it was that recruited her DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION - MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 123 1 and trained her and not you. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So wait. So then in 3 her first FBI meeting, she reports seeing a woman 4 with short dark hair at the house, which then is used 5 as evidence that that person was myself. 6 But the maid, lady that who helped keep 7 the house, John Alessi's wife -- oh, and with an 8 accent, I believe she said. 9 John Alessi's wife had short, dark hair 10 and an accent. I'm sorry, but I find -- and you can 11 ask yourselves this, I mean, I've obviously modified 12 my accent. I've been in America a long time, but I'm 13 British. I've been brought up with a very strong 14 British accent. 15 And I don't believe there's an American on 16 planet Earth that doesn't recognize this to be 17 British or Australian, maybe, if you really don't 18 know. But it's not some random accent. 19 Now the Hispanic, maybe. Okay. That was 20 John's wife that she saw, not me. And I'd like to 21 point out further how you -- potentially her own -- 22 through her own words. She identify -- 23 DAVID MARKUS: Why don't we -- why don't 24 we -- 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 124 1 DAVID MARKUS: -- stop there and let him 2 ask the next question. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. 4 TODD BLANCHE: You're good. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 6 TODD BLANCHE: So it's -- so just -- and 7 look, I want to -- I want to try to -- I think 8 probably tomorrow we will -- I want to talk more 9 about kind of the evidence against you and how to 10 address that. So -- 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Sorry. 12 TODD BLANCHE: No, don't apologize. 13 That's -- so that's helpful but -- 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 15 TODD BLANCHE: -- I don't want you to be 16 burdened. I want you to just tell the truth the best 17 you can, so I don't want you to be burdened by what 18 people said at trial or what you know the press says 19 about you, so -- 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just thought it was 21 illustrative when you asked the question -- 22 TODD BLANCHE: And it was. It was. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- because it 24 doesn't -- I did not -- I absolutely have no memory 25 at any -- now I'm leaving separate DOJ REDACTION MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 125 1 to this obviously -- 2 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- so that's a 4 separate story. I'm not going to pretend -- well, 5 we'll come to her. 6 TODD BLANCHE: We'll get to her. Go 7 ahead. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, she -- but in the 9 terms of the scheme or whatever, however you want to 10 determine what you're calling that, I have no -- no 11 memory, no active anything of having seen anybody 12 that resembles a young -- a child, let's call it what 13 it is, at that house giving him a massage at all. 14 It's not even like I did this. It's an at 15 all. And 44 people didn't see me or talk about me 16 either, including . 17 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- and when you say 18 "that house," I -- 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry. 20 Palm Beach. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no, I understand what 22 you mean but, and I -- does the same memory or lack 23 thereof, apply to on planes, at -- in New Mexico, in 24 New York, in -- 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, with some other DOJ REDACTION- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 126 1 important caveats. Well, on that -- but Julian -- 2 Jane, in my trial, was clearly underage, clearly a 3 child. And I only saw her in Palm Beach and I only 4 saw her with her mother. 5 The other person who's clearly also not an 6 adult or even close, , I believe, I 7 remember her now. That would be the only two or 8 three, whatever that is. 9 TODD BLANCHE: So did you ever know 10 Mr. Epstein to communicate with FBI agents, either 11 like intelligence FBI agents, like as a source or 12 just generally with FBI agents? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 14 TODD BLANCHE: Do you think if he had done 15 that, you would've known, like he would've told you 16 something like that? Like if I said to you, 17 Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI, would you say, 18 that's crazy, no, he wasn't or maybe he was, I 19 would -- he wouldn't have told me that anyway. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have two answers for 21 that. I think if he was for real, I think he 22 would've bragged about it to me as a show off, 23 because he could be a show off. And if he wasn't, he 24 might have dropped it like he was cool. And I don't 25 think -- I don't remember him doing either. DOJ REDACTION MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 127 1 Now, with, again, the caveat that in 2 his -- before I met him finding money, I think he may 3 have suggested that there was some people who helped 4 him, but that's the only context that I recall that 5 in. 6 TODD BLANCHE: What do you mean by that? 7 When you said "finding money," what do you mean? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, his business 9 where he -- remember I told you -- 10 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I think in that 12 context, he made -- he showed me a photograph that he 13 had with some African warlords or something that he 14 told me. And, you know, I get -- I don't remember if 15 I -- that's what I interpreted the -- like that kind 16 of thing or whether it was something like that. 17 That's the only actual active memory I 18 have of something nefarious -- not nefarious. I 19 don't even know if it was nefarious, but covert, I 20 suppose would be the word. 21 TODD BLANCHE: And what about any other 22 intelligence agency, like the CIA or Defense 23 Intelligence or any other law enforcement agency? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I don't think 25 so. I think that -- I don't remember anything like MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 128 1 that. I just don't think he had the wherewithal and 2 I think that whole aspect of that is -- can I use a 3 bad word? 4 DAVID MARKUS: Yes. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Bullshit. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And what do you -- 8 you think it's bullshit, meaning? What do you mean? 9 DAVID MARKUS: Would you have known if he 10 was -- would he have been bragging to you? Would he 11 have been saying these things. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he was because 13 I -- I think, well, sorry. I think that -- I think 14 one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my, 15 you know, my family connections and why he liked 16 other people was because they were cool or whatever. 17 And I think that, certainly, early in when 18 I met him, he would've tried to impress me or tried 19 to show off, if you will. Like he was that guy, you 20 know, and he wasn't that guy. And so -- and I think 21 that he would've tried to bullshit me and he didn't, 22 so I think it's -- 23 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he may have 25 tried to bullshit me, but no, I couldn't. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 129 1 TODD BLANCHE: Right. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. 3 TODD BLANCHE: So I want to just shift for 4 a few minutes to talk about post-2000. 2000 to kind 5 of when your relationship changed over the years with 6 him. 7 Did there come a time when he, 8 Mr. Epstein, did meet members of the Royal Family? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 10 TODD BLANCHE: When was that? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I need to go back, 12 because I think I may have misspoke -- 13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I didn't misspeak 15 but I -- 16 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, go ahead. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- it's something that 18 I have forgotten. 19 TODD BLANCHE: Of course. Yeah. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Before I met Epstein, 21 he lived in London for a period of time, I don't know 22 for how long. And he met and knew some truly fancy 23 people, like people -- high society people, that 24 included Princess Diana's best friend. Her name was 25 Rosa Monckton. And Rosa's husband, Dominic Lawson, MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 130 1 who's a famous journalist, actually is a very well 2 known journalist. 3 And when I -- and he had -- he was friends 4 with the Barings, Barings Bank and he had like, sort 5 of -- 6 TODD BLANCHE: That was, you're talking 7 about -- 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Before he met me. 9 TODD BLANCHE: Before, so in the -- 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: '80s. 11 TODD BLANCHE: -- '80s. Okay. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. He was dating 13 Eva Andersson, Miss Sweden, I think. I don't know 14 when she became Miss Sweden. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So earlier when you 16 said that he met them later -- 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 18 TODD BLANCHE: -- you think he may have 19 met some members of the Royal Family or certainly 20 British high society. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He met -- I don't know 22 about the Royal Family, but certainly high society. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the reason why I 25 know this is because, sometime we can -- this is a MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 131 1 documentable thing. Docu -- whatever. There's a 2 photograph that can give you the date, because I 3 don't remember what the date is of this, so there's 4 something that will peg whatever this date is. I 5 don't remember when that is. 6 Epstein went to London without me. He 7 often went everywhere without me, but he was in 8 London without me, which was decently unusual because 9 London's my hometown. 10 But anyway, he went without me. And he 11 went to a big event in, I think it was in the -- 12 anyway, it was a big event. It's on -- it's on -- 13 it's on -- it's on the news. It's like a -- there's 14 photographs of it. And he, I don't know if he sat 15 with Diana or he met Diana and he'd already met her. 16 I don't know, but this, I believe was organized by 17 Rosa. 18 And so there's -- I don't know if she was 19 being set up as a date for him, maybe because she -- 20 I don't want to speak bad of Diana, but -- I'm not 21 going to do that. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So that was 23 pre-meeting you. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, that was -- that 25 event happened when we were -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 132 1 TODD BLANCHE: Oh, okay. That was 2 (Inaudible). 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and I would -- 4 sometime -- 5 TODD BLANCHE: Understood. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: - - no, it's when we 7 were -- 8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I'm not going to 10 say together, but when -- how about this? When I was 11 his employee, that's a bit better. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So now moving back 13 to the 2000s, did there come a time when Mr. Epstein 14 met Prince Andrew? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 16 TODD BLANCHE: And others in the 17 Royal Family or just Prince Andrew as, far as you 18 know? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so as -- as much 20 as I can piece it together, all right, first of all 21 let's just state, I did not introduce him to 22 Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince 23 Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson. That is a flat untruth. 24 I'll start with that. 25 So now I'm going to tell you how he did MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 133 1 actually meet him. So I -- if you find me that 2 photograph, I can date that time when he met 3 Princess Diana at that event. I -- and based on 4 that, I'll be able to tell you if it's pre or post 5 that event, because I haven't looked it up and I've 6 never bothered to check. 7 So Lynn Forester, who was a client or some 8 type of client, or I think she actually tried to date 9 him or might have dated him, for the record. She was 10 in -- do you want to ask me something? 11 TODD BLANCHE: No, go ahead. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. She was -- she 13 had a house or she rented a house in the Vineyard. I 14 think it was in the Vineyard or Nantucket, I can't 15 remember now which one it was. It was one of those. 16 It was either in Nantucket or the Vineyard, and 17 invited Epstein to go, and I believe that's when he 18 met Prince Andrew. 19 However, I believe that before that event, 20 he had gone to the Bahamas and had hung out with 21 Sarah Ferguson. And Sarah had called Epstein and had 22 arranged with Lynn, or I don't know. I don't know. 23 Now I'm speculating. Anyway, long and short, he met 24 Andrew up there. 25 TODD BLANCHE: And I'm not holding you to MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 134 1 an exact date, but when, approximately, was that? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, we can date it 3 from that picture, if you find me the picture. 4 TODD BLANCHE: But do you know, I -- 5 without looking at a photo, in your mind, 6 approximately, when was that. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say it was 8 the 2000 -- no, probably 2001, 2002. 9 TODD BLANCHE: Early 2000s? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 11 TODD BLANCHE: And I think it was actually 12 Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met 13 Jeffrey Epstein through you. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think that's true. 15 So -- well -- 16 LEAH SAFFIAN: It's true that Andrew said 17 that. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, no, I'm sure 19 it's true, because I -- I'm English and my close 20 friends are all close friends with Sarah and Andrew. 21 And I would not say that I was close friends with 22 Andrew before, but certainly we were friendly and 23 certainly his best friends, some of them, are very 24 close with me. 25 And I think that my friendship, my -- me MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 135 1 being present or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey 2 more, like, trust him or I think that's the idea. 3 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't dispute that 4 you're -- that you kind of had a role in them getting 5 together. You're just saying you didn't say, Prince, 6 here's Jeffrey. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would never have 8 introduced them. It would never have occurred to me 9 to introduce them. I couldn't imagine them being 10 friends. Two chalk and cheeses would never -- I 11 mean, for real, there's nothing there to connect 12 them. 13 So he met Prince Andrew and then he had a 14 really good relationship. I don't like that word. 15 It sounds clunky. They had a friend -- 16 DAVID MARKUS: Acquaintanceship. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. And -- 18 through Sarah, actually. I think Sarah is the one 19 that pushed that. And they met and hung out, I want 20 to say two or three times that had nothing to do with 21 me. I wasn't communicating with Andrew, I wasn't in 22 touch with him. 23 And I know this because I was annoyed and 24 I felt left out, and I felt disrespected and I was 25 like, this is weird. I couldn't even imagine Epstein MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 136 1 and Andrew together. And I thought that Sarah was 2 trying to put the moves on Jeffrey, if I'm being 3 honest, and I thought the whole thing was annoying 4 and I was pissed off. 5 TODD BLANCHE: So what happened with their 6 relationship? Putting aside the publicity around 7 Prince Andrew's purported relationship with 8 , what happened, as far as you know, with 9 Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein's relationship, from 10 the times you just described or you give me -- 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So after that, 12 at some point Jeffrey told me -- Epstein told me that 13 Andrew was coming to New York and I needed to 14 organize the whole thing. That's classic by the way, 15 classic Epstein. 16 Of course, if someone -- I'm like, all 17 right, fine, whatever. And because he wanted to make 18 sure that Andrew was taken care of and that he was 19 comfortable, he had whatever he needed, yada, yada, 20 yada. 21 And I'm like, well, am I going to meet him 22 or are you just going to have me do all the job? And 23 he said, well, you know, you can come and say hello. 24 Like, wow. Well, that's so nice of you, for real. 25 Because you have to understand, like, I DOJ REDACTION MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 137 1 don't know if I told you this before, but I did not 2 have the keys to his -- I was not allowed to go to 3 his house, unless I was summoned or told. I was not 4 allowed to answer his phones. We can go there, but 5 anyway. So this -- you can tell there's a bit of a 6 sore point, perhaps. 7 Anyway, so Andrew came, and of course the 8 minute we got together I was like, yay. Hi. And 9 then it was so nice, because the difference of being 10 in England with Prince Andrew versus being in 11 New York without all the bullshit was insane. 12 And our friendship just like lit up like 13 this, because first of all, he knew that I'm safe. I 14 mean safe as in I'm not, yeah, you know, Nigel 15 Dempster or taking a picture. 16 I mean, not in a million years would I do 17 something so gross. And we honestly got on like a 18 house on fire. I really liked him a lot and he's -- 19 it was so nice and we just became really, really good 20 friends, much more so than when we were in London, if 21 I'm honest. 22 TODD BLANCHE: And then with respect to 23 and Prince Andrew, what do you know about 24 that relationship? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Would you like to ask DOJ REDACTION MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 138 1 that again? Relationship is a big word. Like I 2 said, I don't like the word. Let's just start there. 3 Okay. 4 So I have read -- I just want to like 5 piece together. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Well, but don't say -- 7 before you say what you read, because that's one of 8 the problems is that we're all kind of -- 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. What, I 10 know -- 11 TODD BLANCHE: -- we're all formed by like 12 all the publicity and information around what 13 everybody else has said, but like, what do you -- 14 DAVID MARKUS: Know. 15 TODD BLANCHE: -- what do you think or 16 what did you see? What did you hear? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What's an even bigger 18 word than bullshit? 19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Why? Well, go ahead 20 just -- but finish that thought. Why do you think 21 that? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm going to tell you 23 right now. I'm so happy to tell you. I'm like 24 excited. I'm beyond excited. 25 Okay. So there's been a mixture of what MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 139 1 I've actually seen and know from the evidence and 2 versus what I've put together. Impossible for me at 3 this point to separate everything, but I'll tell you 4 what I know versus what I saw and what I physically 5 have in here, but it's helpful for you to know. 6 So the allegation, I have to go with the 7 allegation. The allegation was that at my house in 8 London, in March, whatever that was, 2001 I believe, 9 we went to London, especially so that could 10 have a -- or could have a relationship with 11 Prince Andrew and she was paid a vast amount of money 12 for that purpose. 13 Okay. And that she then got in the -- in 14 my bathroom in my house in London and had sex, sexual 15 relations with him and then went into my guest room 16 and had full blown sex and then left my house, or he 17 left, and she felt used and disgusting. 18 And a photograph was taken of them just 19 before all these events took place in my study. That 20 is what is the story. 21 Oh, and then after that she met him 22 several other times. But we'll come to that. We'll 23 come -- this is where it will -- allegedly started. 24 LEAH SAFFIAN: And they went to Tramp. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, right. We went to DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 140 1 nightclub that night. Oh, we went to dinner, right? 2 We went to dinner and then to Tramp. Okay. So the 3 first thing about that weekend, that specific 4 weekend, was it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in 5 the country. 6 And I have some corroborating evidence for 7 that and a lot of testimonial that you can check. So 8 that takes care of the reason why I -- one of the 9 reasons why her story doesn't hold water. 10 The second reason why -- so -- by the way, 11 when I say that, my mum turned 80th, that actual 12 weekend was, her birthday is on March the 11th. And 13 the reason why I went to London, and I presume, but 14 I -- this I don't remember, is why when we were -- so 15 the whole trip started because of Alberto Pinto, who 16 is the decorator for the island and for -- and for 17 New York as well. 18 And he had wanted Epstein to go to see a 19 house in Marrakesh, if I remember rightly, and went 20 via the Alhambra, it was also for New Mexico. So 21 there's architectural pieces that -- paint. And that 22 was the basis of that trip. 23 And I suspect now, that that trip was 24 planned all around the fact that I had to be in -- 25 wanted to be in -- was going to be in London no MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 141 1 matter what for my mum's 80th birthday at my 2 brother's house in the country, which is 3 approximately an hour outside of London, an hour and 4 a half -- 5 LEAH SAFFIAN: An hour and a half. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- an hour and a half 7 outside of London, in my brother's home. And we all 8 congregated on the Saturday for her birthday 9 celebration on the Sunday, and then we left. So 10 that's that. 11 The second reason why -- probably maybe 12 even the more important reason than my mum's 13 birthday, that I think it's absolute rubbish, is that 14 Prince Andrew. The idea of him doing anything of 15 that nature in my house, that's the size of this 16 room, is so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me, as 17 the man or what -- I just can't -- I can't even -- 18 I -- no. 19 DAVID MARKUS: Is there any way that it 20 could have happened? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 22 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. 23 LEAH SAFFIAN: Describe the physical plan. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, the physical -- so 25 the -- my house was tiny. I think it's 900 square MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 142 1 feet in total. Well, maybe that; is that right? 2 Maybe nine -- 3 LEAH SAFFIAN: Yes. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It is on three floors, 5 however. So you're talking about a little -- it's a 6 jewel. It used to be a stable for a horse. It was 7 the stables for the big house. It was a little poor 8 man's home behind the rich man's home. It's a jewel. 9 It's a -- was a gorgeous little place, but 10 it is the size of a nut. If you make a noise, let's 11 say, a little burp or something you don't want to -- 12 you'd hear it. It just -- 13 Where she says that they had relations in 14 a bathroom, I -- first of all, the bath is an old 15 Victorian bath. I could -- I'm quite -- quite small, 16 it's tight for me. I put my brother in there to see 17 what would happen. And it looks like a blivet, which 18 is a sausage in like a very tight skin. 19 So her description of whatever the two 20 people were doing in the tub, that wouldn't work. 21 The bathroom itself is so small, you can't lie flat 22 on the floor. So it couldn't happen on the floor, 23 because you physically, physically can't. This 24 bathroom is too small to even be on the floor. 25 And then the kicker of all kickers, is MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 143 1 that because the bathroom was so small, I decorated 2 it to try make it look huge, which meant that I put 3 mirrors the whole way around it. And what was so fun 4 about being in there is that if you stood in the 5 bathroom, you saw like a hundred of you, like you do 6 if you were in -- 7 DAVID MARKUS: A fun house. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, well, Alice in 9 Wonderland or one of those things that you would see 10 yourself going, stretching everything. And the 11 image. If you said you were -- let's say you were, 12 let's say that was telling the truth. 13 She could say she was having sex with 14 5,000 generations of the Royal Family, because that's 15 how far back you could see yourself. There is no way 16 in God's green earth if that had taken place, that 17 this is something that you would miss, because it's 18 -- you couldn't miss it. 19 If you were standing there, you'd see the 20 whole -- the FBI, the whole Department of Justice 21 standing behind you. It's like, no. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- 23 LEAH SAFFIAN: And also -- let me just -- 24 also explain where the tap was in the bathtub. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well it's an old DOJ REDACTION- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 144 1 Vic- had a tap. So if you were in -- if you were in 2 the top, right, it might -- this is the tub. My tap 3 would be here, I think -- no. 4 TODD BLANCHE: So you think it's kind of 5 logistically and physically not something that could 6 have happened. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, there's that. 8 And there's just -- Andrew would -- he's so English. 9 He's so -- he had a tie on. 10 DAVID MARKUS: Do you think there's any 11 way it could have happened or no? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely on -- no 13 way -- no how, absolutely not. Wait, I haven't 14 finished. So on her -- 15 TODD BLANCHE: Go -- 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry. 17 DAVID MARKUS: No, go ahead. Go ahead. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm sorry. 19 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. Go, go, go. 20 Finish. Please, go ahead. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. Can I finish? 22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. When all this 24 nonsense took place, where this whole story with the 25 picture and the this and the that and this bullshit, MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 145 1 I believe that this whole thing was manufactured, and 2 I can point you to some potentially corroborating 3 evidence of this. 4 So when she gave the photograph to the FBI 5 in Australia -- 6 DIEGO PESTANA: Just to be clear, the 7 photo, you're talking about, you're talking about the 8 famous one where -- 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I have a image 10 of it here. Who wants to look at it? 11 DIEGO PESTANA: -- where Prince Andrew is 12 holding and you're in the background? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The fake, just to be 14 clear. So on the back of that, and this is in the 15 discovery by the way. I don't know if it's in -- I 16 don't know where, which discovery I saw it in now. 17 But this -- she wrote, she, , 18 wrote in the back that it was a picture that was 19 taken in January of 2000 and -- on 2000 or 2001, I 20 don't remember. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So now in her 23 handwriting, that she's giving the FBI this picture, 24 suddenly now it's March. So how do you go from her 25 writing it's January to March. It's because it DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 146 1 only -- it's the only one that fit with the flight 2 logs, that when she could be in London and this took 3 place. 4 The second thing is that -- oh, I'm so 5 excited to tell you this. There is a journalist, I 6 know you guys are quite -- well, I don't know. The 7 fake news is at work here. 8 So there's a journalist called Sharon 9 Churcher. There is a lawyer called Brad Edwards. 10 These two -- and there is a Southern District of 11 Florida prosecutor called Villafana. 12 I would very much look forward to showing 13 you the relationship between these three parties that 14 created that story. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Why? Well, without -- 16 putting aside the relationship, why do you think they 17 created that story? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe that story 19 was created for the purposes of -- well, there are 20 multiple. The first one is financial, the second one 21 is for the purposes of the CVRA case. The third one 22 was for the serialization, both of her book and in 23 the papers, for the story to attack the Royal Family. 24 And just as a -- 25 TODD BLANCHE: So I think when -- when you MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 147 1 were just asked about the photo, you said you 2 actually thought the photo was fake. 3 Do you think it was just misdated or do 4 you think it's a fake -- literally a fake photo? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe it's 6 literally a fake photo. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you think that? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, first of all, I 9 don't remember it. We'll start -- 10 TODD BLANCHE: But you -- 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. Okay. But the 12 outfit I'm wearing -- 13 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- is the outfit from 15 my mum's birthday party. 16 TODD BLANCHE: So but you don't have 17 any -- do you dispute that they've met each other? 18 DAVID MARKUS: Do you know whether they've 19 met each other? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not know that 21 they met. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so you not 23 only -- so you think the photograph is fake, but you 24 also are not even positive they actually ever met 25 each other. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 148 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not. 2 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't have a 3 specific recollection of kind of being at an event or 4 a party or your apartment, or you know, you're flat 5 in London with Prince Andrew and ? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not. 7 DAVID MARKUS: She doesn't know one way or 8 the other. 9 TODD BLANCHE: Understand that. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm just -- I want you 11 to know that -- 12 TODD BLANCHE: No, I know. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- the reason why -- 14 I'm not hesitant. I'm not -- I don't have any memory 15 of that, so that -- that's not the issue. The issue 16 is, could Andrew have come to the house to see me or 17 see Epstein, and say hi and she had been there? Yes. 18 I can't say that that didn't happen. 19 But what I can absolutely, categorically 20 say is that I never, at any time, set Andrew up to 21 have relations with her or any other human being 22 ever. 23 And I can categorically state that her -- 24 her characterization of whatever may or may not have 25 happened, could -- physically would just no. And DOJ REDACTION MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 149 1 plus, I was in the country, so all of that's just not 2 conceivable. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you attend -- did you 4 attend social parties over -- and again, I really, 5 now I'm focused on 2000 plus, so not -- not the 6 earlier, where Mr. Epstein would host a party or be a 7 big part of the hosting of the party and some of, or 8 many of the young women who were masseuses would be 9 invited to the party, as guests or his entertainment? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I certainly went to 11 his house when he would have people who would be 12 there that were -- I call them -- I would -- the way 13 I would think of it and I would characterize it, were 14 his entourage. That's how I thought about it. And 15 that certainly was in the later 2000s, Yes. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you attend any 17 weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein? Again, 18 I'm mostly focused on post -- plus -- post 2000, but 19 if there's something that comes to mind in the '90s, 20 that's fine as well. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A wedding? 22 TODD BLANCHE: Weddings. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With Epstein? I don't 24 think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein. I can't 25 think of a wedding that I ever went to with him. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 150 1 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- so you don't 2 remember -- you didn't attend President Clinton's 3 daughter's wedding -- 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did. 5 TODD BLANCHE: -- Chelsea Clinton's. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. 7 TODD BLANCHE: But that wasn't with 8 Mr. Epstein? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, it was with 10 Ted Waitt, my boyfriend. 11 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With Ted Waitt, my 13 boyfriend. 14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you know whether 15 Mr. Epstein was at that wedding? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was not. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And how did you -- 18 did you have a relationship -- well, why did you get 19 invited to that wedding? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because Ted and 21 Clinton were very close. 22 TODD BLANCHE: And why -- how were you 23 close to them? Like what was the reason you were 24 close to them? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met President MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 151 1 Clinton -- well, I first of all, I went to the 2 White House with Epstein once for, I think it was for 3 a historical, like one of those benefits and I met 4 the President then, but like a thousand other people 5 shook his hand. 6 Then after that, I had a very -- a good 7 friend of mine that was the mayor -- known to be the 8 Mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine, and Philip and 9 the President were very good friends. And Philip was 10 a very -- and I were very good friends, and so I 11 actually was introduced to the President post his 12 coming out of the White House and became friendly 13 with him, because of Philip Levine. 14 DAVID MARKUS: Because of what? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Philip Levine. 16 TODD BLANCHE: There's some names that 17 have been publicly associated with Mr. Epstein that I 18 just want to ask you if you know about: Piers 19 Morgan? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Is friendly with who? 21 TODD BLANCHE: With Mr. Epstein. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no idea. 23 Never. I doubt it. 24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. There's no trick 25 question. I'm not trying to -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 152 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Yeah. 2 TODD BLANCHE: -- I'm not suggesting that 3 I know the answer to it. I'm generally just asking. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I would be 5 astonished. I can't imagine they'd have anything in 6 common either. 7 TODD BLANCHE: How about -- 8 DIEGO PESTANA: Were you friends with 9 Piers Morgan? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I've met him. I've 11 met him. I met him at an event in Manhattan. I 12 can't remember what -- in more recently, so probably 13 in 2012, '13, something in that, and we had a very 14 nice conversation. So I remember -- I remember that. 15 I remember thinking -- I'd never -- I 16 don't remember if I'd ever met him before, but I 17 remember thinking how nice he was and I was 18 surprised. So I liked him. What can I tell you? 19 So that's the only one -- that's the only 20 memory I have of that. I'm not sure if that's 21 correct but that's what I think. 22 TODD BLANCHE: I don't have a correct or 23 incorrect answer. I just want you to tell the truth. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I just don't know. 25 I just want to try and... MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 153 1 TODD BLANCHE: No, but I don't -- I want 2 you to believe me and -- because I mean this. There 3 is so much information in the public sphere -- 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I see. Okay. 5 TODD BLANCHE: -- about you and 6 Mr. Epstein and others around, and some of it is 7 definitely true and some of it is definitely false -- 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. All right. I 9 just -- I guess that's -- 10 TODD BLANCHE: -- so when I ask a question 11 -- 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 13 TODD BLANCHE: -- if I think that you're 14 not being honest or that you're missing something, 15 I'm not going to -- this isn't got you. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 17 TODD BLANCHE: I'll say that to you. 18 Did you ever meet JFK, Jr.? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm sorry? 20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever meet JFK, Jr.? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 22 TODD BLANCHE: When was that? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I will -- I met him at 24 Andrew Cuomo's wedding? No, Kerry -- Kerry's 25 wedding. Kerry's wedding. Who did Kerry marry? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 154 1 Andrew Cuomo. Yes. Sorry. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Andrew Cuomo's wedding 4 in -- 5 TODD BLANCHE: So when would that have 6 been, approximately? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 1990. 8 TODD BLANCHE: So before -- 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 1999. I don't -- I -- 10 something like that. 11 TODD BLANCHE: But would that have been 12 before you met Mr. Epstein? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Or maybe -- yes. 14 TODD BLANCHE: Did you have a -- any sort 15 of professional or social relationship with John F. 16 Kennedy, Jr.? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I fancied him. 18 TODD BLANCHE: You what? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought he was very 20 attractive. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Oh, you fancied him. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Besides him -- finding him 24 attractive and fancying him, did you have any sort 25 of, you know, social relationship with him? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 155 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, we knew each 2 other. I thought he was wonderful and fun and I 3 enjoyed meeting him, but I -- we went out -- I want 4 to say we had a dinner or two, but obviously I was 5 very excited, but that was it. 6 TODD BLANCHE: And then Alan Dershowitz. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- what's the 8 question with Alan? 9 TODD BLANCHE: Do you -- say that again. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What's the question? 11 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Mr. Dershowitz? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he knew 14 Mr. Epstein? Do you know the nature of their 15 relationship? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I definitely do 17 know Alan. I want -- I'm just trying to remember if 18 I knew him -- I am trying to remember how I met him. 19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and if I met him 21 separate from -- I don't remember. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So that I have no 24 recollection. I remember -- I know that he was 25 Epstein's lawyer. I don't know if they had any MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 156 1 relationship prior to that. I don't remember. Oh, I 2 do actually. Sorry. 3 I think they met at the same 4 Martha's Vineyard through Lynn Forester. I think 5 that's what happened. I think that's it. 6 TODD BLANCHE: And why do you think that? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because it just popped 8 into my head. 9 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And did you -- did 10 you -- you said that Mr. Dershowitz was Mr. Epstein's 11 attorney. 12 Do you know whether they also socialized? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my personal memory 14 of when I remember two -- I have two distinct 15 memories with Alan. One is with him and his wife at 16 the island, and I actually remember that. And I 17 remember, I think, going to his house in Boston, if 18 he had a house in Boston, that's -- it was only two 19 times I remember. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe 21 Mr. Dershowitz doing anything inappropriate with 22 young women around Mr. Epstein? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never. 24 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever hear 25 anybody -- did anybody ever tell you that he had done MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 157 1 anything inappropriate? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever -- did you -- 4 do you know one way or the other, whether 5 Mr. Dershowitz ever got a massage at the island or 6 any of the locations that he was at with Mr. Epstein? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember 8 anything about him ever getting massaged. I don't 9 ever have any recoll- -- I don't believe I ever even 10 saw him in a bathrobe. I have no knowledge of that. 11 TODD BLANCHE: I'm jumping around a little 12 bit. You mentioned, I think briefly the TerraMar 13 Project. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 15 TODD BLANCHE: What is that? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I founded TerraMar 17 in -- well, the idea of TerraMar came, I think in 18 2010. So I want to just explain TerraMar a little 19 bit. 20 So Ted and I bought a boat -- well, Ted 21 bought the boat. And its -- basis of the boat was to 22 do explorations and sea -- sea exploratory stuff. 23 This really started because I have, and have had 24 since I was a child, a love of the ocean and 25 everything aquatic. And I've always been, I just -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 158 1 I'm nervous about the state of the ocean. 2 When Ted and I, we worked with National 3 Geographic and we did exploratory work and the most 4 exciting -- we did many exciting things, but one of 5 the most fabulous ones that we did was we looked for 6 Amelia Earhart twice. I did two expeditions to look 7 for Amelia Earhart, as an example of an -- of a 8 exploration that we did. 9 And he had a foundation for the ocean and 10 we worked with Nat Geo, we worked with Woods Hole. 11 We did amazing things. 12 We bought-- he bought the Remus 6000, so 13 when the plane went missing, the plane that went -- 14 was it Air France? From Brazil to Paris that went 15 down, it was the Remus 6000 that found that plane. 16 It's one of those deep sea explorers. 17 Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, I 18 just -- one of the things I did not want to give up 19 was the -- my love of the ocean and everything that 20 we did and TerraMar, the genesis of TerraMar came 21 from that. So TerraMar obviously means land, sea. 22 And the story of the ocean is that earth 23 really shouldn't be called earth, it should be called 24 ocean because three quarters is the ocean. 25 So -- and so I wanted to not clash with MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 159 1 anything to do with Ted, because it was a bit awkward 2 between us and I -- so he took all the part of the 3 ocean that was close to land, so within 200 miles. 4 And so I decided I would focus on all the 5 part of the ocean that was outside of national 6 borders, TerraMar. And that's how that -- that's the 7 genesis of TerraMar. Okay. 8 TODD BLANCHE: So what was the time period 9 of that? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That -- I think after 11 I broke up with Ted, so 2010, '11 is when it started. 12 And then I ran it all the way up until whenever the 13 Epstein drama struck and then I just shut it down. 14 Not -- I shut it down because I didn't 15 want what was happening to hurt any -- the 16 Smithsonian or Nat Geo or the -- I just couldn't let 17 everything be hurt by what was happening to me. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Jean-Luc 19 Brunel? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 21 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him -- so 23 when -- I told you I was working for the European, 24 for my dad -- 25 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 160 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and I was in 2 charge. 3 TODD BLANCHE: So back in like '90, early 4 '90s? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. And I was 6 running a magazine. One of the things in the 7 magazine is fashion. And so I was going to some 8 fashion shows and I was looking for fashion 9 sponsorship. And in fact, when I came to America, 10 one of the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron 11 Perelman at Revlon, who was great. And I met 12 Jean-Luc through just in Paris like that. But 13 socially not ... 14 TODD BLANCHE: Did Mr. Epstein know him as 15 well? Did you later learn whether they knew each 16 other? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not sure I -- I 18 don't -- he would've -- Epstein had his own fashion 19 situation, so he would've -- I don't -- he didn't 20 meet Jean-Luc through me. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe them 22 together over the years? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely. Yeah, I 24 saw them many times together. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did he visit the MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 161 1 island? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Did he go to Palm -- 4 meet -- go to Palm Beach House? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, he went -- yeah, 6 he went everywhere. I saw him in every place. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Did do you ever observe him 8 getting a massage or do you ever know whether they 9 got a massage? Maybe you didn't observe him 10 personally? You don't remember. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know. I mean, 12 I don't -- I never -- I have no conscious memory of 13 Jean-Luc. I would imagine that he did, but I 14 never -- I don't see it. 15 TODD BLANCHE: How about Mr. Weinstein, 16 Harvey Weinstein? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What would you like to 18 know? 19 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know him? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 21 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him? Like, 22 I guess when I say "how do you know him," is it a 23 relationship you had kind of separate from 24 Mr. Epstein or did you guys -- did you meet him 25 through Mr. Epstein or both? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 162 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wouldn't say -- 2 first of all, I wouldn't say I had any type of 3 relationship with Harvey Weinstein -- 4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- in any context. 6 Socially, I would meet him because I would 7 go to events that Harvey would be at and also his 8 wife was English back then, Georgina. And I was, I 9 mean, friendly also, would be a big word, more 10 acquaintance. 11 So we would see each other and I would go 12 to Miramax events, be -- there was a couple of people 13 who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with, his 14 primary producer whose name is Meryl Poster, who I 15 was friendly with, and yeah. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether 17 Mr. Epstein had his own relationship with 18 Mr. Weinstein? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He did. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Did they socialize together 21 at the island or in Palm Beach, or in New Mexico? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw Harvey at 23 any of Epstein's houses. So socialize -- I don't 24 know that they were friends. I mean, I can't see 25 them together, either. I mean, literally. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 163 1 But I know that they certainly do that. I 2 would imagine -- and in fact, I think I have a 3 memory, but I can't -- that when Harvey was trying to 4 raise money for whatever his business was called, I 5 can't remember what his business was called. 6 Maybe he went there, because Epstein was 7 good at raising money. I just don't know. But I 8 never saw them. I don't -- I don't recall seeing 9 Harvey in any of the properties. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Let's just go a few more 11 minutes and take a break, I know it's after lunch. 12 So do you -- we talked several hours ago 13 about your father and his business a little bit. 14 After your father passed, do you know 15 whether Mr. Epstein was involved in your family 16 business, that you know of? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not, in any 18 respect. First of all, there was no family business 19 left. Start with that problem. And the second one 20 is, my family didn't like him very much. And they 21 were busy dealing with their own problems and there 22 was no relationship whatsoever. 23 Oh, I mean, he -- my mum and he got along 24 quite well. That was it. But that was -- she's an 25 old lady and, you know, he was nice to her. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 164 1 TODD BLANCHE: We're repeat -- we're now 2 being a little repetitive, but you're confident that 3 before you met Mr. Epstein, he didn't know your 4 father, and so there's no -- he wouldn't have done 5 business with your father's companies in the '80s 6 either. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not. I'm a 8 hundred percent sure of that. I never met him. I 9 never saw him. I never heard his name. No. 10 Nothing. 11 TODD BLANCHE: So there's been a lot of 12 conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained, 13 like, a list of people, like a book of famous people 14 that he knew. Like a, it's called a black book or a 15 client list or a list. 16 Did you know of the existence of any such 17 list? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There is no list. 19 We'll start with that. The genesis of that story, I 20 can actually trace for you from its absolute 21 inception, if that is what you're interested in. 22 TODD BLANCHE: It is. 23 DAVID MARKUS: Well, first, you know, to 24 be short, there is no list, there's no client list. 25 Nothing like that. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 165 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, there is nothing 2 like that. 3 TODD BLANCHE: That you know of. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That I -- obviously. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Right. Yeah. Okay. So 6 you say you think you know the genesis, so go ahead. 7 Tell us. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'd like you to know 9 that I have brought some supporting corroborative 10 evidence to -- 11 TODD BLANCHE: Well, tell me what it is, 12 too, and then we'll get the corroboration. 13 LEAH SAFFIAN: Well, why don't you tell 14 him first. 15 DAVID MARKUS: Is this -- is this -- do 16 you want to take a break here because this is a 17 long -- 18 TODD BLANCHE: It's a long story. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, this is long. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, let's take a break. 21 SPENCER HORN: All right. The time is 22 2:03 and we're going to take a break right now. 23 (Off the record at 2:03 p.m.) 24 SPENCER HORN: All right. We're resuming 25 the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. It is 2:16 on MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 166 1 Thursday, July 24th. And the recording device is now 2 on. 3 TODD BLANCHE: So when we stopped to take 4 a break, we were talking about what has been publicly 5 discussed as a black book or the Epstein list. And 6 that's where we are. 7 So you said you think you might know or 8 that you're aware of kind of the origin of this 9 narrative. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. I just want to 11 reiterate again, there is no list that I am aware of. 12 I've never, at any time, at least during the period 13 of time when I was -- 14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- present. 16 The origin of this story, I believe, 17 begins -- or it has a beginning in 2009, and then it 18 has a prequel but we have to start in 2009. 19 In 2009, there is -- Epstein is, I think, 20 out of jail, and there are civil suits taking place. 21 Many of these are coming out of a disgraced law firm, 22 Rothstein Adler -- Rothstein, Rosenfeldt & Adler. 23 At that law firm is a lawyer who started 24 there in April, May, 2009, called Brad Edwards. In 25 2009, allegedly the FBI gets a call in October of MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 167 1 2009 from Brad Edwards, and he allegedly tells them 2 that he has come across a piece of evidence that 3 belongs to Epstein, that contains a list of all of 4 his clients and victims, underage girls, massage 5 therapists, and his -- and the men who are having sex 6 with them. And he becomes -- he, Brad Edwards 7 becomes a cooperating witness -- cooperating -- 8 LEAH SAFFIAN: Confidential. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- confidential 10 informant, sorry. Confidential informant for them. 11 And in a sting operation obtains the list 12 from a former butler of Epstein's called Alfredo 13 Rodriguez. And it becomes evidence in the civil 14 suit. 15 In the -- Alfredo Rodriguez is 16 subsequently prosecuted for having an AK-47 or 17 something weird, some guns or something, and goes to 18 trial. And there's a criminal complaint that the FBI 19 produced. 20 And in that criminal complaint, it says 21 that Brad Edwards became aware of the list, but -- 22 we'll call it the list for the purposes of this. 23 After Alfredo Rodriguez's two depositions that are 24 held in Epstein's civil suit. 25 It's in the FBI's affidavit that the MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 168 1 evidence was collected, and Brad Edwards became aware 2 of it after the second deposition. It's in the 3 criminal complaint. The truth is different from 4 what's in both the criminal complaint and in that FBI 5 affidavit, and in Brad Edward's own statements on the 6 subject. 7 The truth is that Alfredo Rodriguez was 8 deposed twice, once in July and once in August. And 9 in the July deposition, told Brad Edwards that he had 10 handwritten notes or a journal, whatever, in the 11 deposition. 12 And Brad Edwards replies, well, we're 13 going to come back for a second deposition. And the 14 second deposition takes place in August. 15 What this means is that Brad Edwards had 16 access to the list from sometime between July and 17 August, until when he actually called the FBI in 18 October. So we're talking six months or so. 19 Rothstein's firm was raided a few days 20 after the list went into the FBI's hands, and, 21 subsequently, Rothstein himself was prosecuted for 22 RICO, and I believe went to jail for 50 years. 23 As part of that RICO case, he admitted to, 24 on the record, and was -- I don't know whether he was 25 prosecuted for creating fake settlements and fake MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 169 1 evidence in Epstein's case. 2 In 2009, simultaneously whilst this was 3 going on, my boyfriend, Ted Waitt, was asked for 4 $10 million to keep me out of any of Epstein's civil 5 suits. Up until then, I had not been in any of 6 Epstein's civil suits. In fact, I wasn't even sure, 7 save for the first time I was mentioned was by 8 , I hadn't been -- I was basically nowhere. 9 And then Ted was called for this 10 $10 million and had been shown -- his people had been 11 shown evidence that included the list, the flight 12 logs and various other pieces of evidence. 13 Now, we're going to the prequel part of 14 this story, so then it can tie to how this starts. 15 In 2007, Epstein signs the non-prosecution 16 agreement. He then fights the prosecution agreement 17 or debates it through the DOJ or whatever happened 18 there, and is -- goes to the court in 2008, when it's 19 accepted or whatever that is. 20 Villafana was the lead prosecutor or the 21 lead -- yes, in that case. And she, I think, was not 22 happy or with the outcome and utilized, at that time, 23 Brad Edwards, to file the CVRA case. 24 Now, what is -- what I have managed to 25 understand from this is, within the OPR itself, there DOJ REDACTION- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 170 1 is evidence. There it says that Brad Edwards was the 2 only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to. So I 3 just want to preface that. 4 The reason why I know that she went behind 5 Acosta's back, and everything else to do this, is 6 because Brad Edwards in a podcast made the 7 revelation. What he says is that he'd never heard of 8 the CVRA case before, and Villafana called him and 9 told him to file it. The sole purpose of the CVRA 10 was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement. 11 So what I believe is that Villafana worked 12 with Brad Edwards, who she had also been -- he was 13 the lawyer that she had selected as a pro bono lawyer 14 for some of the victims. And he was also working for 15 Rothstein's firm, that was under RICO investigation 16 for that entire time, creating fake evidence in 17 Epstein's case. 18 And she had just filed hidden secret using 19 Edwards to overturn the NPA by filing the -- this 20 CVRA case, that sole purpose was to overturn it. And 21 so when he approached her with the list, this was 22 part of the effort to utilize and find new evidence 23 to support the overturning, either of the NPA and/or 24 a new case against Epstein. 25 Because Brad Edwards -- or I don't know it MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 171 1 was Brad Edwards. Because Rothstein's firm asked my 2 then boyfriend for $10 million, to kick me out of 3 suits that I had no knowledge of at that time 4 whatsoever, I now know that the base of this story 5 was a blackmail of a billionaire, because Ted Waitt 6 was a multi-billionaire. 7 He had everything. He was way, way more 8 wealthy than Epstein, if anyone cares. And that is 9 the reason why Ted and I broke up, was the basis of 10 that. 11 TODD BLANCHE: So -- 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that list was 13 created -- so then the -- the masseuses that were on 14 that list, I have never heard of some of them. I -- 15 not even from the civil suits that had come up since 16 I've seen it. And this is me now knowing what's in 17 the list today. 18 And I believe that -- oh, Alfredo 19 Rodriguez, so there's a metamorphosis of this list. 20 So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes, 21 that's in the documents contemporaneously, is that 22 it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has. 23 It then morphs into something that Alfredo 24 took a book, that Alfredo took from Epstein's 25 computer, but there's no computer I know. Certainly MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 172 1 not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken, that came 2 out as a book. 3 And then it morphed into, at the civil 4 time -- my civil case, into a book that was taken 5 from my computer. And then it morphed into the 6 Southern District of New York as a combination list 7 of mine and Epstein's. That is a metamorphosis 8 through documents that you can trace. 9 TODD BLANCHE: So the -- in your mind, or 10 from what you just described, there is a list, it's 11 just manufactured. Meaning, have you seen the list, 12 even fake? Like do you know -- 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I haven't seen it, but 14 what I -- 15 TODD BLANCHE: So just -- I was confused 16 -- 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I guess my thing is 18 that what Brad Edwards says in all of these things 19 is -- in the paperwork and whatnot. And in -- so all 20 this story is basically controlled by five people. 21 There's four alleged victims that speak 22 about the list and the blackmail and the men and the 23 sex and whatnot -- And the lawyers and now the 24 prosecutors, sorry. The Southern District of 25 New York for sure. But no one else. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 173 1 None of these stories carry from any of 2 the 44, alleged, original victims. They never ever 3 say that they were farmed out to anybody. 4 TODD BLANCHE: But the list itself -- 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 6 TODD BLANCHE: -- where is it? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There is no list, but 8 Brad Edwards said that he created the list. 9 TODD BLANCHE: So that's what I was a 10 little confused about. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. He created a 12 list. He -- so in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez 13 produced, that became evidence, Exhibit 52 in my 14 trial, has markings all over it. Circles and dots 15 and whatnot. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And Brad Edwards says 18 that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of 19 all the people who were involved. It includes Alan 20 Dershowitz, for the record, who's marked. I don't 21 remember what it does with Donald Trump. I don't -- 22 I don't know. You'd have to look. I don't have it. 23 But I believe -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: I see. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what he did, he MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 174 1 marked up -- I don't know who. Somebody marked up 2 that book of names, and I think all the names of the 3 people that they went for were originally selected 4 between two sources. One was this alleged book of 5 names, and one was also from the telephone logs that 6 were collected from the house in Palm Beach. 7 And just to finish it off, there is a 8 note -- I have some papers for you if you wanted 9 them, where Brad Edwards says that he has a list of 10 25 men that he got money off -- 11 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So the list 12 that everybody, the black book, the list, what you're 13 saying is that your -- your Exhibit 52 from your 14 trial, which is like a -- more of an address book, a 15 Rolodex type thing, that Mr. Rodriguez -- Alfredo 16 Rodriguez, your understanding, is that somewhere 17 along the way he went through and kind of marked that 18 list to say -- 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know where 20 that book actually comes from. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know what that 23 book is. That book is some type of a compilation, 24 but what it is, is it's just pieces of paper with 25 type. So if you had -- you could have made a list. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 175 1 I could put -- 2 TODD BLANCHE: But you're referring to 3 something that's been public for a long, if we're 4 thinking about the same thing. You're talking about 5 the -- you're right, it's like a bunch of different 6 types of paper or whatever. I only have a copy of 7 it, but with big parts of it redacted publicly, 8 because there was people's addresses and whatnot on 9 it. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. That's what I'm 11 talking about. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it -- oh, perfect. 14 Yes. So you will find -- 15 TODD BLANCHE: We're looking at Exhibit 52 16 now. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So you're 18 looking at Exhibit 52. So the one they produced, 19 they, the Southern District of New York actually 20 produced a book for me to see it as evidence, the 21 actual thing it was. 22 And I -- it has marks, it has tabs, it has 23 things, it has names I've never seen. It had -- like 24 that list -- those -- that list was basically the 25 names that they choose to produce at trial. Now, in MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 176 1 Rothstein Adler's firm, I also have some documents 2 where Rothstein -- his original scheme, Rothstein 3 Adler, was to place prostitutes. He had a bar, a 4 dance bar where he had girls. And I believe he would 5 use them and put them as fake secretaries in people's 6 offices, and then she might touch him or he might 7 touch her or something, and boom, he got $25,000 for 8 that. 9 And those girls --now, I'm not saying that 10 those are the girls that came in Epstein's case 11 necessarily, but the -- 12 TODD BLANCHE: So -- but again, let's -- 13 like, so we're separating the evidence that came in 14 at your trial and what you just talked about with 15 Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez. 16 During the time that you were with 17 Mr. Epstein, and even in the 2000s when you were 18 around less frequently, you never observed or you 19 never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of 20 individuals who, you know, linked to certain 21 masseuses or -- 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely no. 23 TODD BLANCHE: -- anything like that? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely no. There 25 is no list. There is no -- I'm not aware of any MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 177 1 blackmail. I never heard that. I never saw it and I 2 never imagined it. 3 TODD BLANCHE: While we're on this topic, 4 just -- and again, I know we're jumping around and 5 we've been going on it for a while, so I apologize. 6 But there's recently been reports about a 7 birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein, I 8 think, for his 50th birthday in 2003. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's true. 10 TODD BLANCHE: What do you know about 11 that? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So, my mum did a 13 birthday book for my father at his 60th. And when 14 I -- Epstein would talk about his 50th, he said, I 15 don't know what I'm going to do. And I said, well, 16 these are nice things, my mom did this book for my 17 dad. He said, I love that idea. 18 He said, can you help coordinate it? And 19 he organized who -- he called a lot of the people 20 himself. I coordinated the putting together of the 21 book. And some -- in some instances, I called people 22 that asked them to contribute -- 23 TODD BLANCHE: And what was in the book? 24 Like what was the ask of the people you called? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's his 50th MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 178 1 birthday, say anything you want on a piece of paper. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, nothing more 4 than that. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Right. I mean, it was an 6 obvious question. But you basically -- his folks 7 were invited to send something to you to celebrate 8 his birthday. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. To say happy 10 birthday with like, have a wonderful day or something 11 else. There was no -- there was no ask, but I wasn't 12 responsible for everybody in that book. And there 13 were people that he would ask himself to contribute. 14 TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember some -- 15 do you remember specific names of individuals who did 16 send letters or who did contribute? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's been so long. I 18 want to tell you, but I don't remember. 19 TODD BLANCHE: Do you -- 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I honestly don't 21 remember. 22 TODD BLANCHE: The article talks about 23 several names, but including the folks -- the 24 article, which is on Donald Trump. Do you remember 25 President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 179 1 note? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Do you think the 4 articles -- well, do you remember seeing that book or 5 any portion of the letters in your discovery in 6 New York? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What do you remember 9 seeing? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I remember there 11 was -- there were some portions of that book. But 12 what surprised me -- yeah. What surprised me was how 13 few there were, because I thought if you had those, 14 where are the rest? There was none of Mr. Trump. 15 TODD BLANCHE: In your discovery? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, in my discovery, 17 sorry. President Trump, there was nothing from 18 President Trump. 19 TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember -- but 20 separate and apart from your discovery, do you 21 remember one way or the other whether President Trump 22 submitted a letter for his 50th birthday? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not remember. 24 TODD BLANCHE: And the article that 25 references the letter talks about like a -- sounds MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 180 1 like either a naked -- a picture of a naked woman or 2 something like that. 3 Do you have any recollection of that? 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not. But just -- 5 no, I don't. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember -- so what 7 do you remember seeing from your discovery around the 8 book? Like you said, portions of it or some of the 9 pages. 10 What do you remember. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I remember there were 12 maybe -- so I just want to say about the discovery 13 that I had about -- maybe this is an exaggeration, 14 I'm not sure, but in my mind it's about close to 5 15 million page -- 5 million documents. It was a lot. 16 And of that giant document dump that I 17 received, I was only -- maybe as much as 30 to 35 18 percent, I was never able to access. And this is 19 documented on -- at the court. And so I cannot say 20 that I saw everything, because I didn't. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just want you to 23 know that. And I think that that was by design. 24 TODD BLANCHE: But you -- but you do 25 remember -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 181 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do remember some 2 pages. 3 TODD BLANCHE: -- seeing some pages of the 4 book? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do, yes. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you remember what 7 pages you saw? Like from -- it was from -- who had 8 written those letters or no? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really don't 10 remember. I'm sorry. 11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. It's okay. Did you 12 -- did you and/or -- so the same questions we've 13 asked about some other individuals. 14 Did you have -- did you meet Bill Gates 15 over the years? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Because of your 18 relationship with Mr. Epstein or separate? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That one -- well, I 20 met Mr. Gates -- I went to the TED conference. I 21 gave -- I went to the TED conference and I actually 22 spoke at the TED Conference, not the main stage, the 23 substage. And I also gave several TEDx's. 24 But -- and I met him there, but we were 25 friendly and I actually did meet him, because I knew MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 182 1 his -- I don't know if he was chief of staff or 2 whoever, Boris. And I met him, I think, once. I may 3 have met him actually at 71st Street. I may have 4 once. I don't remember if I met him there or at a 5 restaurant, I don't remember. And that would've been 6 because of Epstein, because Epstein was friendly with 7 Boris and Boris -- that's all I remember. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether 9 Mr. Gates traveled with Mr. Epstein on his plane to 10 any of his houses? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So if that -- that 12 friendship was after, you know, it was in the late 13 2000s. So if I met him -- like I said, I went to 14 Epstein's house maybe once or twice. Maybe I met him 15 there. I don't remember. 16 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't -- 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I wouldn't know if 18 he had been on Epstein's plane. 19 TODD BLANCHE: And you weren't -- you 20 don't recall ever being on the plane with him flying 21 to the island or to anywhere? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know somebody named 24 Reid Hoffman? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 183 1 TODD BLANCHE: Who's that? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Reid is a Silicon 3 Valley guy. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Is what? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Silicon Valley. 6 TODD BLANCHE: And how do you know him? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Through my friends in 8 San Francisco. I have a -- I used to have a very 9 close friend who is in San Francisco who's part of 10 that whole -- I have several, actually, or had. 11 TODD BLANCHE: So is that a relationship 12 you had kind of separate and apart from Mr. Epstein? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Separate. 14 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether 15 Mr. Epstein had a relationship with Reid Hoffman? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe 18 Mr. Hoffman flying anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Or getting massages? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. No. 22 TODD BLANCHE: So there was -- there's a 23 list of multiple masseuses that is floating around. 24 I think you had in your discovery. I think you were 25 just talking about that. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 184 1 That list, do you know how that list was 2 created? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. That -- all that 4 stuff that came out of that book, I now find suspect. 5 TODD BLANCHE: As far -- as part of the 6 story you just told us? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Now, I'm not 8 saying it's all fake. I don't know what's real and 9 what's not. I don't -- 10 TODD BLANCHE: Understood. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- know what name is 12 true. Now that it's been to my mind anyway, now that 13 it has been, without a doubt, contaminated and 14 possibly fraudulent, I'm not -- I don't know. I 15 mean, obviously the numbers that I recognize are my 16 own, those are real. 17 But how it was actually ended up put 18 together and compiled and the purposes for it, for 19 which then they blackmailed my boyfriend, now I'm 20 just -- no. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Over the years when you 22 were serving as like the general manager, so the mid 23 '90s all the way into the 2000s. Did you or do you 24 know whether anyone maintained a list of all the 25 masseuses, like a running list? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 185 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So there would've -- 2 so there's two things -- well, three ways. So I know 3 that the house itself, John Alessi had a Rolodex that 4 he kept the names and numbers of all the people that 5 came to the house so that he could call. 6 So --because I only was with Epstein, even 7 at best, half the time. So when I was there, he had 8 like his chief of staff who could find whatever he 9 needed. And when I wasn't there, he had to rely on 10 somebody else, right? So it'd be that John Alessi or 11 whoever else. 12 So everybody -- whoever was traveling with 13 him or wherever he was, he needed somebody else to 14 access information. So he had an assistant chief who 15 was his secretary, who would be the one that would 16 update his computer, you know, like everybody has an 17 address book. 18 TODD BLANCHE: But was what you're 19 describing, which I'm not -- it makes sense. I'm 20 just -- was that a list of masseuses or a list of 21 people that might need to be contacted, which would, 22 necessarily, include a lot of masseuses? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's -- the latter. 24 TODD BLANCHE: And did you update that? 25 Like were you part of -- were you one of the people MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 186 1 that would add names to it? Like if a masseuse came 2 and leaves and Mr. Epstein says yes, she was good, 3 would you be part -- like, how, how was the list kind 4 of maintained or who maintained it? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Typically, no -- 6 TODD BLANCHE: No. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- because there would 8 be an assistant who would do that. Plus, Epstein 9 would not allow me to answer the telephone ever. So 10 -- or maintain or keep any of his messages in the 11 office or at the house. 12 So typically that wouldn't be, because I 13 wouldn't be the one. Could I say to you I never did 14 it? No, of course not. Because that just seems 15 ludicrous. But as a rule of thumb, the answer would 16 be no. 17 TODD BLANCHE: During the 2007, '08, '09, 18 investigation -- the investigation out of the 19 Southern District of Florida. So you said that you 20 weren't contacted by law enforcement. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was not. 22 TODD BLANCHE: After Mr. Epstein was 23 charged, did you have conversations with him about 24 the investigation? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never talked to me MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 187 1 about it. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I can't -- 4 let's put it this way. If he did, I have no 5 recollection of it. I mean, I'm sure he must have 6 said, this is all -- whatever he said or it's nothing 7 or whatever. 8 I mean, I just don't have any -- I just 9 don't have any memory. I mean, I just -- I was with 10 Ted. My -- I was like gone. I mean, plus I just 11 didn't want to know either, I suppose. 12 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't know, 13 firsthand, why the U.S. Attorney in Florida made the 14 deal that he did? Meaning you weren't part of that 15 discussion along the way. 16 Like Mr. Epstein didn't say, I'm getting a 17 good deal or, you know, I -- something is happening 18 with the case that's very good. 19 You were -- to the extent you know 20 anything about it, it's just from what you've heard 21 or read from others, not from Mr. Epstein; is that 22 right? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never talked about 24 the non-prosecution directly with me, no. But he did 25 -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 188 1 DAVID MARKUS: But it's still enforceable 2 as to her. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, he never said, 4 hey, do you -- are you happy with this deal like 5 that. But I understood. He never -- he never 6 enjoined me to the NPA, but I understand that he 7 included me, specifically, and I'll tell you why. 8 DAVID MARKUS: Well, it's okay. You don't 9 need to get into that. 10 TODD BLANCHE: No, no. Yeah. I'm not -- 11 I don't want to talk about the legal -- the -- what's 12 on appeal. I'm just -- 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- well, I 14 wasn't. 15 TODD BLANCHE: The reason for my question, 16 just to be -- I'm not trying to hide something, but 17 there's a very strong belief that he got a very good 18 deal. And that he should -- she -- he should have 19 been sentenced to more time or got a different 20 sentence from the feds than a non-prosecution 21 agreement. 22 And I'm not asking you to opine on that, 23 but I'm wondering whether he ever talked to you about 24 that. But it sounds like he didn't. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That he got a good MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 189 1 deal. No. I think actually -- well, his comments 2 that I've read was that he didn't get a good deal. 3 And I think that the, you know, when he fought it so 4 hard is because he didn't think he did. 5 TODD BLANCHE: When he was serving his 6 sentence, were you ever -- were you around during 7 that time, like when he was allowed to leave during 8 the day or travel during the day? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never called him. I 10 never saw him and I never went to the jail. 11 TODD BLANCHE: So I'm going to ask you 12 questions that you shouldn't read into them. I just 13 want to know whether you -- whether they resonate 14 with you. 15 Have you ever had any contact with any 16 representative, that you know of, from Mossad, the 17 Israeli intelligence agency. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Can you ask me that 19 again. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Has -- have you ever had 21 any contact with an individual that you understand to 22 be from Mossad, an Israeli intelligence agency? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not 24 deliberately. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Pardon me? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 190 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not deliberately. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And did you know -- 3 we asked this -- we talked about this a little bit 4 earlier, but just to put a finer point on it. Did 5 you ever know that Mr. -- did you ever -- were you 6 ever told -- did you ever think that Mr. Epstein was 7 getting any money from any intelligence agency, 8 including Mossad? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I don't believe 10 so, but I wouldn't know. I mean, I would be very 11 surprised if he did. I don't think so. No. 12 TODD BLANCHE: We've talked about a lot of 13 names and I'm sure we've -- there's some that we 14 haven't covered. Are there any foreign nationals -- 15 so right now we've talked about some British, the 16 Royal Family a little bit, and maybe high society 17 folks in Britain. 18 Were there any international businessmen 19 or politicians that had a very close relationship or 20 a close relationship with Mr. Epstein, that we 21 haven't already talked about? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Off the top of my, 23 head, I can think of Ehud Barak. 24 TODD BLANCHE: You said that Mr. Epstein 25 at some point in the mid to late '90s he started MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 191 1 taking testosterone. Did you ever know him to take 2 any other drugs? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I mean, he took 4 pills for his heart, I think, but I don't -- no 5 other -- no substances. 6 TODD BLANCHE: What -- do you know 7 anything about his heart condition? I know we talked 8 about this at, you know, 9:45 this morning. But do 9 you know anything about his heart condition, beyond 10 that you understood he had a heart condition that 11 affected his ability to have sex? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Other than what he 13 told me, no. He never shared anything, but he did 14 take pills. I don't know what -- I don't know 15 anything above that. And like I said, he did the 16 testosterone, which made him mean. 17 TODD BLANCHE: And we're jumping around a 18 little bit. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Sorry. Do you know someone 21 named Donald Barr? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 23 TODD BLANCHE: He is -- I can represent to 24 you, was a former headmaster of the Dalton School, 25 which you mentioned earlier. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 192 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember any 3 conversations with Epstein about a book that Mr. Barr 4 wrote called Space Relations? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I've never heard of 6 that. 7 TODD BLANCHE: About aliens and sex? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. No. 9 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether -- 10 well, have you ever met the former Attorney General 11 of the United States Bill Barr? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember whether 14 Mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came up 15 in conversations you had with Mr. Epstein? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't recall any. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Did you have a 18 relationship or know -- I'm using "relationship," but 19 I appreciate you don't like that word. 20 Do you have -- did you know Mr. Epstein's 21 brother Mark Epstein? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 23 TODD BLANCHE: How did you know him? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Through Jeffrey. 25 TODD BLANCHE: How would you describe your MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 193 1 relationship; close, friendly? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My personal? 3 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not that close, but 5 friendly enough. I mean, you know. 6 TODD BLANCHE: How was Jeffrey Epstein's 7 relationship with his brother Mark from what you 8 observed? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, they were 10 brotherly, but I think that -- I don't know. I don't 11 know. They had periods when they were closer and 12 then when they weren't. I think sometimes Epstein 13 found his brother irritating. 14 TODD BLANCHE: And I think I know the 15 answers, given what you just said about Bill Barr, 16 but did you ever hear any -- from Mr. Epstein or 17 anybody else -- that Bill Barr had any role in 18 Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida, or 19 any role in that process with Mr. Acosta? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never heard that. 21 TODD BLANCHE: I think you said this in an 22 interview, but if I'm wrong forgive me. Do you have 23 a view of Mr. Epstein of whether he committed suicide 24 or whether something else happened? 25 DAVID MARKUS: Can we take a break? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 194 1 TODD BLANCHE: Want to take a break? 2 DAVID MARKUS: Yeah, sure. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. We can take a break. 4 Yeah. Sure. Actually, it's a good time to take a 5 break anyway, because it's to be the last one of the 6 day. 7 SPENCER HORN: All right. So we're going 8 to take a break at -- it's 2:53, Thursday, July 24th. 9 (Off the record at 2:53 p.m.) 10 SPENCER HORN: We are continuing with the 11 recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The time is now 12 3:10 p.m., Thursday, July 24th. 13 TODD BLANCHE: My colleagues alerted me to 14 a couple questions I think I may have forgotten to 15 ask you. One is -- sorry, I'm just going through my 16 notes. 17 Well, we talked few minutes ago about this 18 birthday book that there's press about. I understand 19 you don't remember anything with President Trump or a 20 lot about the book anyway. 21 Do you remember asking President Trump to 22 submit a letter for that? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not. 24 TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember -- 25 would you have been the one to do that or could MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 195 1 somebody else -- would somebody else have done that? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did ask some people. 3 I don't remember Mr. Trump. I don't remember who I 4 did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself 5 directly. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it could have 8 happened that way, if it happened at all. 9 TODD BLANCHE: Where is that? 10 DIEGO PESTANA: You mentioned Ehud Barak. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 12 DIEGO PESTANA: What was his involvement? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: This would've been in 14 the later 2000's. So I do not know how they met, but 15 I do know that they -- I don't know if friendly would 16 be the right word. I don't know that, but I know 17 that they saw each other and only because my 18 father -- you know, anything that touches Israel or 19 the state of Israel, I'm always interested in, 20 because my father loved Israel and so I pay attention 21 to it and we have ties to, you know, to Israel. 22 TODD BLANCHE: When you said it was later 23 though -- 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Ties meaning friends 25 and family relations. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 196 1 TODD BLANCHE: Was the Prime Minis- was 2 Mr. Barak, Prime Minister Barak, do you know what the 3 nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein? 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- were you 6 ever with them together? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think I met -- I 8 have a memory of meeting Ehud, but I don't know if he 9 was with Epstein or -- I don't remember. I just know 10 that I did see him and I'm trying -- struggling to 11 remember the context around it, but if I -- if -- I'm 12 sure it happened, but it must have been very brief. 13 Because I don't have any serious memory of it. Any 14 like, deep memory of that. 15 TODD BLANCHE: And maybe this is 16 obvious -- 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And maybe it comes 18 also because I've read it in the press. That may be 19 something that brought it to my memory. So that's 20 also -- I mean, I'm also -- I think the press has 21 been very contaminating, so I just -- it's hard 22 sometimes to separate those stories from your memory 23 sometimes. 24 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know a British 25 gymnast by the name of Heather Mann? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 197 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Did she -- 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't know she was 4 a gymnast. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Oh, okay. I'm reading 6 something that says she was a gymnast, but please 7 don't assume that that's correct. This is based upon 8 my words. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Did she ever travel with 11 you and/or Mr. Epstein? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think, yeah, she did 13 actually. I think that she might have been one of 14 Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point. 15 TODD BLANCHE: What -- again, I know we're 16 talking about time periods that are vast. What time 17 period would that have been? Like after you -- 18 like since 2000? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say -- I 20 don't know, it could be the '90s -- could be the 21 '90s, I don't know. But I mean, listen, there are 22 people that pop out of the woodwork all the time. I 23 just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend in 24 '93 and '94. So I mean, he obviously was very busy. 25 LEAH SAFFIAN: Or she's lying. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 198 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Or there's that. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Did - someone named Mark 3 Middleton -- 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I remember him. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Who was that? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was in the -- 7 Mr. Clinton's administration -- President Clinton's 8 administration, I think. 9 TODD BLANCHE: And how do you -- do you 10 know him? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I met him and 12 that is -- I met him through Mr. Epstein. 13 TODD BLANCHE: And do you -- was he, from 14 what you observed, was he a friend or business 15 acquaintance of Mr. Epstein? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I only saw him 17 a handful of times, but I did see him with him. I 18 mean, he seemed friendly. I don't know if I would 19 characterize -- I mean, only having seen him briefly, 20 I don't know how to characterize that. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he like 22 flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein? Did he visit the 23 island? Do you know anything about that or their 24 relationship as it relates to that? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never -- I don't MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 199 1 have any recollection of seeing Mark Middleton at the 2 island. 3 TODD BLANCHE: How about former US Senator 4 George Mitchell? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I do remember 6 George. 7 TODD BLANCHE: What do you remember about 8 him? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I traveled with him. 10 We went to -- the most memorable affair I went to -- 11 well, I was friendly with his wife. Start with that, 12 with Heather. And Heather was in New York, so I hung 13 out with her a few times. We had dinner and I was 14 just friendly, I would say separately with -- 15 separately from her husband. I was friends with 16 Heather. I met Heather through her husband, but we 17 became friends. 18 TODD BLANCHE: You became friends with 19 Heather? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Heather, yes. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Was Mr. Epstein friends 22 with, Mr. Mitchell? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 24 TODD BLANCHE: Did they travel together 25 besides New York? Did they travel to the island or MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 200 1 to New Mexico? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't -- I don't 3 remember George ever at the island. But the most 4 memorable trip I do recall with Senator was to Italy. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Was to where? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: To Italy. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Ah, okay. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: We went to Rome. 9 TODD BLANCHE: As the four of you. So 10 Heather and Mr. Mitchell, and you and Mr. Epstein? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's my 12 recollection. 13 TODD BLANCHE: And what were you there 14 for? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, the most 16 memorable aspect of that trip is we went to the 17 Vatican. It was extraordinary, the most 18 extraordinary thing was going to the archives and 19 holding Henry VIII's document to the Pope asking for 20 his divorce. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know the former 22 president of Colombia, Andr?s Pastrana? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 24 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Andr?s Pastrana MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES