LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 count, so, I didn't - if I'm the Control 2 Officer, I'm Control one, so my second body is 3 the one that's preparing the counts and taking 4 the counts and viewing the count slips with the 5 Lieutenant is not there. I'm in charge of the 6 radios, they keys, you know, like a count and 7 making sure that all my equipment is accounted 8 for, letting staff know, "Hey, we're on duty." 9 We got to do a PREA-announcement and going over 10 equipment and stuff, all those type of things, 11 so no, I didn't - I wouldn't be aware of this 12 if I didn't prepare it, no. 13 MR. : So what happened? Was 14 figured out - and this is where 15 we were hoping you can help us a little bit. 16 And she figured out that Fernandez, who was 17 placed on dry cell at 3:15, was never keyed out 18 of the SHU. 19 MS. : Ah. 20 MR. : However, they're still 21 reporting - because he was never keyed out, 22 they're still reporting 73, 73, 73 -- 23 MS. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : -- although there's only 25 72 inmates in the SHU. EFTA00115105

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. somehow 3 figures out, you guys don't have 73, you've got 4 72 and then either she or someone in Control or 5 whomever, keys him out. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : And so what we want to 8 know is do you remember that happening or the 9 circumstances around that? 10 MS. : No. 11 MR. : No, you don't? Does this 12 tell you anything about if these counts were 13 conducted? The 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 p.m. 14 and the 12:00 a.m.? 15 MS. : This just shows that this was 16 conducted. 17 MR. : No, not the E-ls, the 18 counts in the SHU. 19 MR. : Count slips. If the counts 20 were wrong. 21 MR. : So all of them are saying 22 73 all though there's only 72 people. 23 Fernandez leaves at 3:15. So knowing that you 24 work in SHU, you work in III 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115106

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 MR. : -- and also you can look 2 at the -. 3 MS. : Well -. 4 MR. : So these III slips show 5 that there's one person in there. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : Although - 8 MS. : This is 9 -. 9 MR. : Nine south. 10 MR. : So what does that mean? So 11 so on this here, the midnight one, right? 12 MR. : And also, just please 13 take note of the checks that are all over them. 14 There's no checks on these two. So, and that's 15 the 10:00 p.m. we're looking at. So, we're 16 just trying to piece this thing together. 17 MS. : Normally, I'm just going to, 18 for my experience, when I've had to plus a one, 19 it's because it's a WITSEC inmate that we could 20 not key in because only certain individuals 21 have the authority and capacity to key those 22 individuals in. So, if I got an inmate in SHU 23 that's a WITSEC and staff can't key him in 24 until maybe the Unit Manager of the WITSEC Unit 25 comes in and keys him in or whatever unit team EFTA00115107

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 of the WITSEC Unit, we would plus that one 2 because that would show that that's the body 3 that's there that we cannot account for but 4 he's there. That would have - I don't know 5 what this is. 6 MR. : Do you recognize whose 7 handwriting that is? The 9S plus one? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Do you know if it's yours 11 by chance? 12 MS. : No, that's -. 13 MR. : Definitely not yours? My 14 assumption is that was written at midnight, but 15 we still can't figure it out. That's what 16 we're still trying to figure out. We would 17 have thought that the plus one stuff would have 18 happened at the 10:00 p.m. count since we 19 believe that that's when Reyes was keyed in. 20 he was keyed in on the 10th for the 9th because 21 - not Reyes, I'm sorry, Fernandez. 22 MS. : Normally, when a Lieutenant 23 checks off the slips, it's because they're 24 verifying that it's the unit, it's the accurate 25 count, it's the accurate date, time and staff EFTA00115108

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 signature print of two staff members. That's 2 normally how Lieutenant would mark off a count 3 slip to verify that -. 4 MR. : I want to show - so does -. 5 MR. : Is that telling to you at 6 all that the fact that these aren't checked 7 off? 8 MS. : I don't know why they aren't 9 checked off. I couldn't tell you why, I don't 10 know. 11 MR. : But those plus ones, 12 aside from possibly a WITSEC type of thing, 13 would that make sense with whether it would be 14 a plus one on III and a plus one though on ZA? 15 MS. : Minus - not unless there - 16 the only thing I can gather is that they're 17 saying that this plus one is the inmate that's 18 still keyed to SHU but is sitting in III 19 That's the only thing -. 20 MR. : And that would be my 21 assumption too. IS that they're saying there's 22 73 bodies in SHU plus one who's actually in 23 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : But that 73 is still off EFTA00115109

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 so I guess what the question would be is, the 2 fact that they're using the number that Control 3 has, although they only have 72 in their actual 4 housing unit. 5 MS. : Can I just -- 6 MR. : Absolutely. 7 MS. read this again. 8 MR. : It also tells us that - 9 or I won't say what it tells us, but I just 10 want to know what it tells you. 11 MR. : Which one do you need? 12 MS. : Yeah, I don't see -. 13 MR. : It's the midnight one. 14 MS. : Okay, now you had gave me - 15 you had another log. 16 MR. : The 5:00 p 17 MS. : Didn't you have two logs? 18 MR. : So there was another one, but 19 that's -. 20 MR. : There's the August 10th 21 log. Okay. 22 MR. : But I didn't show you the 23 August 10th. 24 MS. : No, you showed me something 25 with Lieutenant Perez. EFTA00115110

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE li 1 MR. : I know, that's in one 2 MS. : Oh. 3 MR. : -- but this is evening watch. 4 MS. : Oh, okay. 5 MR. : This -. 6 MS. : Oh, that's the same. Okay. 7 MR. : Yeah. So -. 8 MS. : All right. I just want to -. 9 MR. : There's a day watch and 10 night. 11 MR. : You sure, you're getting 12 awful close. 13 MR. : I'm okay. Unless she says I 14 need it. 15 MR. : Would you like a piece? 16 MS. : Okay, so his ending was 72 17 and he has this guy up here and this is 10 18 o'clock. This is the 9:00. 19 MR. : So you want the 10:00 p.m. 20 count? 21 MS. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Here's the 10:00 p.m. count. 23 MS. : Okay. So this is the 10 24 o'clock count. Okay, so, he's not keyed into 25 III. So, this is where your plus one is. So EFTA00115111

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 he's still showing in Special Housing but he's 2 in III during the 10 o'clock count. So this is 3 what makes your 73. This is the 10 o'clock? 4 MR. : But is that also weird 5 though that this count cleared with an III 6 slip. 1 that's never checked off. There's 7 nothing on the E-1 for III? 8 MS. : Hm, okay this is acting on 9 way before clock one. 10 MR. : Before clock one, the one 11 we initially showed you where 12 MS. : Okay. 13 MR. : -- he's also never keyed 14 in. And it is our belief, per the person who 15 said that they keyed him in, it was done after 16 midnight. 17 MS. : Hm. 18 MR. : Are you allowed to count an 19 inmate that you can't see? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : If inmate Fernandez was moved 22 from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., who should have 23 counted him as part of their count slip? 24 MS. : At 3:15? 25 MR. : Yeah, he was moved at 3:15 EFTA00115112

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 and the 4:00 p.m. count was a SHU that should 2 have counted him on the count slip or was it 3 supposed to be III? 4 MS. : Well, to be honest with you, 5 because I work in III and I'm going to tell you 6 what goes on, they drop inmates in there and 7 they don't - a lot of the times, staff - that's 8 why now we tell them, "Tell us what you're 9 bringing inmates down here for." Because they 10 would bring an inmate down and place that 11 inmate in a cell. You won't know because 12 you're busy dealing with the Marshals, you're 13 dealing whatever movement you have going on in 14 III and you won't know that they brought an 15 inmate down in a cell. So, it could work both 16 ways that, you know, maybe they figured they 17 were just going to place him down there, keep 18 him down there and then maybe bring him back 19 upstairs. So, it could have been a number of 20 things, but I just know from experience, 21 inmates have been brought into my III that we 22 weren't aware of and we realized, walking 23 around III, "Yeah, we got an inmate in here." 24 "What is he down here for?" So -. 25 MR. : So this, for me EFTA00115113

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 personally, the E-1 isn't as concerning on the 2 4:00 p.m., although 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- the count slip is. 5 Because the R&- it was so close to the 4:00 6 p.m. count. It's -- 7 MS. : So -. 8 MR. : -- to the 10:00, this is 9 where I start getting like -. 10 MS. : So, on -. 11 MR. : Because there is no III 12 count slip although there's an III count slip 13 in this one that's never checked off, but it 14 also has no E-1 notification. So that -. 15 MS. : And -. 16 MR. : And to me, it seems like 17 the count slips were created after the fact or 18 manipulated or deleted or something, I don't 19 know. 20 MS. : I don't know neither. 21 MR. : So let 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. : As he mentions 24 MS. : Wait a minute. I just want 25 to see. So at 4 o'clock they had 75. EFTA00115114

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 MR. : But technically at that 2 point, they were missing three inmates. Reyes 3 had gone, Fernandez was moved and Epstein was 4 sitting in attorney conference. 5 MR. : Yeah. And it doesn't -. 6 MS. : Well -. 7 MR. : For which 8 MS. : Okay, but where's attorney 9 conference? Oh, here it is. So, this is 10 attorney conference right here. This is the 11 counselor for attorney conference. 12 MR. : That would say, SATTY on top. 13 Okay. 14 MS. : Yes. So this is attorney 15 conference. 16 MR. : Right, that's the one. 17 MS. : This is all the inmates out 18 to court with Southern District. Is it? 19 MR. : So yeah, physically 20 present -- 21 MS. : So -. 22 MR. : -- in the SHU at 4:00 was 23 the 75 although -- 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : I mean 74. EFTA00115115

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Not (Indiscernible 2 *01:33:26). 3 MR. : Although they reported 75 4 because Fernandez -- 5 MS. : Okay, well you -- 6 MR. : -- was (Indiscernible 7 *01:33:31). 8 MS. : -- Epstein accounted for in 9 attorney conference. But this is an out count. 10 MR. : Correct. 11 MS. : And he's keyed on the out 12 count and this is what shows where he is 13 actually sitting in key two at that time so 14 this shows that he's in attorney conference. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MS. : Because he's keyed out on the 17 out count to attorney conference. And what i 18 was expressing to you guys earlier about the 19 courts, how we used to do it, (Indiscernible 20 *01:34:01) maybe it's a couple (Indiscernible 21 *01:34:02). Okay, this is what we used to do 22 in III as far as the out count. So, this would 23 say the inmate out to court, name, register 24 number, what unit and cell he came from and how 25 many from whatever his unit is. So if we had EFTA00115116

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 three out from that unit to court, it would be 2 three or whatever, however many numbers and 3 this is how we would - this is what would show 4 in the system that the inmate went out to court 5 that day. 6 MR. : And that's an inmate you're 7 expecting back? 8 MS. : Right. 9 MR. : So if Reyes is not on there, 10 does that mean that Reyes is gone and you're 11 not expecting him back? 12 MS. : Well, if he was keyed out at 13 8 - what did that say, 8:33? 14 MR. : 8:38, yeah. 15 MS. : Then he wouldn't show up on 16 this as an out count because that means he's 17 keyed out. 18 MR. : He's gone, okay. 19 MS. : Right. So -. 20 MR. : So people that are going 21 to court that are expected to come back would 22 be on that sheet. 23 MS. : Right. But we don't - 24 MR. : But Reyes was not 25 expected to come back. EFTA00115117

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 MS. : Right. And from the looks of 2 this, I didn't work that shift. That wasn't my 3 shift. 4 MR. : Yeah, no, and we didn't 5 believe it was. We're -. 6 MR. : You might have left 7 beforehand? 8 MS. : I might have left - this 9 might have been the day shift and I might have 10 worked the evening shift, so I might have 11 worked - I don't even know. But I just know 12 that I wasn't dealing with the courts, the 13 movement at that time, just from looking at the 14 out count. 15 MR. : Okay. So now that we know 16 that the count was off over here and that the 17 10:00 p.m. count, according to the Lieutenant's 18 log, says 72, but 10:00 p.m. says 73 plus one - 19 20 MS. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. -- right, and now 22 actually is reporting that there is an inmate 23 in there 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : -- except they're still EFTA00115118

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 reporting 73 plus one. 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : And then at midnight - where 4 is the - midnight it says 72 over here and the 5 count slip shows 73. What does that tell you 6 about the counts that were done in the SHU? 7 MR. : What he's asking, if 8 there's only 72 people in there and they're 9 reporting 73 and it just so happened to 10 coincide. And this one - and you need to know 11 that background information. 12 MS. : Okay, so this is what - 13 MR. : They reported 73 and the 14 Ops Lieutenant who took the count, found out it 15 was actually only 72, made the change and 16 changed Reye- and keyed Fernandez out. 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : So what is asking 19 you is the fact that they reported 73 on all 20 these, does that indicate anything to you about 21 the counts if they were done or were they not 22 done? 23 MS. : Yeah, this looks like someone 24 wasn't paying attention because this - what 25 does this look like to you? EFTA00115119

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 MR. : Well, that's what I was 2 going to ask. What is RA? That -. 3 MS. : RA is where that guy was 4 sitting at on dry cell. 5 MR. Is that III? 6 MS. : Yes. So he was - so, because 7 it's now the 12 o'clock count and it's prior to 8 the count, they can go ahead and key him in 9 where he's actually assigned. So it seems that 10 during the 10 o'clock count, he was still keyed 11 to SHU so, what was it, plus one or something? 12 So now at 12 o'clock, because he wasn't keyed 13 there at 10 o'clock, they keyed him there now 14 before the 12 o'clock count which is correct 15 and accurate and what they should have done, 16 but now he's plus one - he's here where he 17 should be where he stated on this notification, 18 right, so that's accurate. But, if he's no 19 longer here, they should have been putting 20 what's here. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MS. : Because he's not plus one up 23 there no more. 24 MR. : Yeah. So this one is 25 clearly that they're off. These guys though, EFTA00115120

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 are still even with that 73 plus one, it should 2 have been 72 plus one if they're trying to say, 3 "We got one outside." It shouldn't be 73 plus 4 one. They're utilizing the same number it 5 looks like on the E-1. Somehow it seems that 6 they had that number, that base count number 7 and they knew, "We need - this is the number we 8 need to report, but also we got a plus one over 9 in n 10 MS. : Right 11 MR. : So they're still off on 12 their count. Does that indicate to you that 13 they didn't actually conduct the count, they 14 just used the number that they thought they 15 were supposed to report? 16 MS. : It doesn't indicate that they 17 didn't count. 18 MR. : Because if they counted - 19 20 MS. : I -. 21 MR. : -- wouldn't they have the 22 right number? 23 MS. : Sometimes you can count stuff 24 25 MR. : But wouldn't it be really EFTA00115121

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 coincidental if they miscount at the exact 2 number that they were supposed to actually 3 provide? They definitely miscounted, but 4 there's 72 people in there and they just happen 5 to miscount exactly what the E-1 shows that 6 they were supposed to count. 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. : It's coincidences and the 9 fact that it happened twice in a row, what does 10 that tell you? 11 MR. : No, three times in a row. 12 MR. : Three times. 13 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 14 MR. : That's right. 15 MR. : -- 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 16 a.m. 17 MS. : I'm not going to answer that. 18 MR. : Well, based on your 19 experience, right? You're experience of 20 working in Control, working in III, what do you 21 think happened? Do you think that they did the 22 count or not? 23 MS. : I'm not going to answer that 24 one. 25 MR. : How would have they EFTA00115122

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 gotten that number that they were supposed to 2 report? 3 MS. : By probably just looking in 4 their log and seeing, "Okay, when you take over 5 my post, oh, we got 72 guys. One is in III but 6 they still got him keyed to our unit." Based 7 on maybe what someone told them. 8 MR. : And when you worked in 9 the unit at midnight, do you remember this 10 being an issue at all? Because this is where 11 we're told the Ops Lieutenant who took the 12 count, , she -- 13 MS. : She had -. 14 MR. : -- had to run around and 15 try to figure this thing out. She's the one 16 who had to like come in and say like, "Okay, 17 where - who's what, where and I can verify 18 this." Do you remember that at all? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : Do you remember any 21 telephone calls with the SHU saying, "You got a 22 bad count, you got to recount?" 23 MS. : No, if she's taking the 24 count, I let her deal with it. I don't - I 25 work on whatever else. EFTA00115123

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 MR. : Okay. So you're not 2 actually involved with her while she's doing 3 it? 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : Okay. And you wouldn't 6 have been, being that you came from III, you 7 wouldn't have been the person that she said, 8 "Can you verify with III that this person is 9 there?" 10 MS. : If she asks me and that's 11 what I did then, but I don't recall that. 12 MR. : You don't recall -- 13 MS. : I don't know anything about 14 that. 15 MR. : -- doing that? Okay. 16 MS. Huh-uh. 17 MR. : You don't remember at all 18 though in that specific - you do - did you 19 recall her being there at all? 20 MS. : Yeah, she was there. 21 MR. : So you remember her being 22 in Control Center? 23 MS. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : And you -. 25 MS. : Because she also made rounds EFTA00115124

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/ 1 on the units. She walked around the 2 institution. 3 MR. : All right. And then as 4 far as being keyed in and out, so I guess it's 5 he BP-38, would that show when Fernandez was 6 actually keyed in and out of the system on 7 August 10th? 8 MS. : Fernandez? The guy from -. 9 MR. : So Fernandez, 3:15, who 10 was never -- 11 MS. : Oh, the -. 12 MR. : -- keyed out. He wasn't 13 keyed out. 14 MS. : The dry cell guy? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MS. : Yeah, it would show on a 38. 17 MR. : On the 38 it would 18 actually show what time? 19 MS. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : And how do we get that? 21 So just make a note, we got to get the 38 for 22 MR. : That (Indiscernible 23 *01:41:43). 24 MS. : Since it goes back -- 25 MR. : That's the same document I EFTA00115125

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 showed you? 2 MS. only 45 days. 3 MR. : Okay. So we wouldn't 4 even be able to get it at this point? 5 Hopefully that day maintained that. 6 MS. : Well, SENTRY only goes back 7 45 days, so 8 MR. : You're talking about this 9 document? 10 MS. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Now what if they did save 12 these documents back then, would we be able to 13 see when he was keyed in? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MS. : If they saved it, yeah. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : But if it's 18 MR. : And -. 19 MS. : -- not saved, it only goes 20 back 45 days. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : All right, I got. 23 MR. : So that will be very 24 telling as well if we can get that. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00115126

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. : Before you start taking 2 everything away, there's an issue with initials 3 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : -- and dates. 6 MR. : Being that I showed you these 7 8 MR. : Just the top. 9 MR. : -- documents, same as before. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Can you just initial and date 12 the top? 13 MS. : (Indiscernible *01:42:27) 14 this one. 15 MR. : Do you know anything 16 about counts not actually being conducted at 17 this time in August of 2019? 18 MS. : No. 19 MR. : When you would work on 20 the custody side of the house, would you be 21 involved in things like counts? 22 MS. : If I'm counting a unit with 23 an officer, yeah. Or if I'm the one taking the 24 count, yes. If I'm -. 25 MR. : Did you ever do any EFTA00115127

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 counts in the SHU? 2 MS. : I've done counts in the SHU - 3 4 MR. : You have. 5 MS. : -- but -. 6 MR. : And when you were there, 7 did they actually conduct the counts? 8 MS. : When I do counts, I conduct 9 counts, yeah. 10 MR. : Yeah, yeah, but I mean, 11 I'm not talking about you, I know you did, but 12 I mean -- 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : -- the people that were 15 there with you, were they actually, you know, 16 you're supposed to have two people to count. 17 Was the other person -- 18 MS. : Well, if I -- 19 MR. : -- also counting? 20 MS. : -- have - if I'm working, 21 you're counting, so it's no - it's not a 22 question. We're not even having that 23 conversation, so. 24 MR. : Did you ever have anybody 25 push back on you like, "No, no, no, we're EFTA00115128

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 good?" 2 MS. : No. 3 MR. : Have you heard of people who 4 when they're starting the shift, just filling 5 out the counts slips and the round sheets and 6 be like -. 7 MR. : Ahead of time. 8 MR. : Ahead of time. 9 MS. : Well, if they're on their own 10 unit, I can't tell you what they're doing on 11 their unit. I can only tell you what I'm doing 12 on my unit, so. 13 MR. : But like in the SHU, have 14 you ever heard of like people coming in and 15 pre-filling out both count slips and round 16 sheets at the very start of their shift? 17 MS. : If they've done it, I've 18 never seen it. 19 MR. : You've never seen it? 20 MR. : Have you ever heard of people 21 doing anything like that? 22 MS. : I've heard of it, but I don't 23 - I've never seen it. 24 MR. : Is that good practice? 25 MS. : No. EFTA00115129

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MR. : Is it known that you 2 can't do that? 3 MS. : You're not supposed to do 4 that. 5 MR. : Does everyone know they 6 can't - especially if we're talking about round 7 sheets. Does everyone know that you can't go 8 and - say it goes from 8:00 a.m. until 12:00 9 p.m., you can't go in at 8:00 a.m. and write 10 out everything you did for a round all the way 11 to 12:00 p.m.? 12 MS. : You cannot do that because 13 anything can happen. An emergency can take 14 place. An inmate could get removed from your 15 unit. You can get a new guy. Any - there's a 16 number of things that could take place that you 17 are not supposed to - even your log book, pre- 18 fill out your log. 19 MR. : Is there any training 20 though that you all receive saying like, "You 21 got to do this when you're actually conducting 22 the rounds?" And certainly, you know, maybe 23 after the fact is okay because you already did 24 it, but beforehand -. 25 MS. : Maybe if the Lieutenant sees EFTA00115130

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 it, you know, they might say, "Hey, you know, 2 you're not supposed to pre-fill out your count 3 slips." They might say, you know, "You can 4 fill out the date, the time, the unit," you 5 might could even fill in your name, but you're 6 not supposed to put in the actual number 7 because you don't know what can happen, so. 8 MR. : But as far (Indiscernible 9 *01:45:26) talking about counts slips, I'm 10 talking about round sheets. 11 MS. : Oh. No, you're not supposed 12 to. They always tell - they - the Lieutenants 13 always say that you're not supposed - they 14 always tell everybody that. 15 MR. : And do you know if back 16 in August 2019, they were also saying that? 17 MS. : No, I don't know about that. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MS. : I don't know -. 20 MR. : And is there any training 21 that's provided to teach people how to actually 22 fill out round sheets and counts slips or is it 23 supposed to be common sense? 24 MS. : Normally you're training on 25 the job as you go along, so if I'm new and, you EFTA00115131

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 know, I'm training up under your officer, you 2 might show me certain things and people just 3 learn by asking questions and maybe another 4 officer just showing him ropes and everybody 5 don't do everything the way they're supposed to 6 do so. I might come in as a new officer and 7 you might be showing me stuff and it could be 8 completely wrong, but I'm doing what you showed 9 me because that's all I know. So, it just 10 depends on who's training who and who's showing 11 who what to do and that's pretty much it 12 because on the job, right now, we have new 13 staff training new staff. We have staff that's 14 here like a month training staff that's here a 15 week. So, the blind leading the blind. 16 MR. : So if someone makes the 17 excuse that, "No one ever told me I could do 18 that, but I saw other people filling out round 19 sheets ahead of time so that's why I did it," 20 is that an excuse do you believe? So you think 21 that that is an actual excuse to say like, 22 "Well, he did it, so I did it," and that makes 23 it okay? Because don't you think it's pretty 24 common sense that, no, you can't - you're 25 certifying a document saying you conducted that EFTA00115132

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 round at that time? 2 MS. : Yes, common sense to the 3 people that think outside the box and - but 4 common sense is not common to everybody and 5 and I'm not trying to be a smart ass -- 6 MR. : No, no, no, it's very -. 7 MS. you know. 8 MR. : It's a good point. 9 MS. : And, you know, I've been 10 doing law enforcement for a while, you know, 11 corrections, juveniles, school safety. So, 12 I've seen things on the job that make me take 13 my job seriously. But when you have no 14 knowledge, you have no experience, no 15 correctional background, you've never been 16 placed in an environment that you felt was that 17 dangerous for you to be as mindful as you 18 should be, you don't - and then nothing 19 happens, you follow what you see everybody else 20 doing in past practice and it's not always 21 right and a lot of people don't read what 22 they're supposed to be doing, they just go by 23 what you tell them and what I could tell you 24 what to do, doesn't necessarily mean that 25 that's actually what you are supposed to be EFTA00115133

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 doing. 2 MR. : Sure. 3 MS. : And if you don't read it in 4 black and white for yourself, how would you 5 know that this is actually what you should be 6 doing? And it's just a lack of training around 7 here. Staff are not being trained and that's 8 what creates a lot of our problems. We don't 9 have a bad institution, we just have a lack of 10 training, you know, and I don't think that 11 people are not willing to work, I think they 12 want to work, but it's a lack of training and 13 it's a lack of morale in the institution, so I 14 think that's what the biggest problem is. 15 People are not being properly trained. So, 16 yeah, if I see you doing it, I think it's okay. 17 I'm not ever thinking, "Oh, you know what? 18 Maybe I shouldn't do that, something might 19 happen." If nothing ever really happens, so. 20 MR. : I have a few more questions 21 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : -- a few more, but we can 24 come back. Some of the questions are going to 25 be redundant -- EFTA00115134

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. -- redundant because we asked 3 the questions -- 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- so I just got to cover it. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : Do you know why Reyes was 8 removed from the MCC? 9 MS. : Is that the guy that went out 10 to court? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MS. : I would only know that 13 because he went to court. But looking at that 14 document, off the top of my head, I wouldn't be 15 able to recall off the top of my head why he 16 was removed, but I just know he went out to 17 court. 18 MR. : Were you ever instructed on 19 what actions to take -. 20 MR. : Well, let's follow up 21 with that. Looking at the Lieutenant's log, 22 does that tell you something different? With 23 the Lieutenant's log and the BP-38? 24 MS. : You mean the PP-38. 25 MR. : Is it PP? EFTA00115135

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : All right. I thought it 3 was like Bureau of Prisons, like BP. So it's 4 PP. 5 MR. : Somebody -. 6 MS. : PP. PP-38. 7 MR. : What does the PP stand 8 for? 9 MS. : It's a SENTRY function. I 10 don't know. Okay. Repeat your question again. 11 MR. : So looking at where it 12 says that Reyes left at -- 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- 8:38, and then as well 15 as with that document the III uses to key 16 people out, the PP-38. Does that tell you why 17 he would have left? 18 MS. : No, because this does not 19 necessarily tell you. It just tells you he was 20 removed out of the institution. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : So, no - I mean, you just 23 know that he's gone. You don't know why he's 24 gone, you just know he left. 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00115136

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 MS. : And same thing with that, you 2 just - you don't know why, you just know he 3 left. 4 MR. : Okay. You're talking about 5 the PP-38, right? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : How would the institution 8 know if Reyes was coming back from court? 9 MS. : would know because he 10 would come back with the Marshals and we would 11 key him back in and we would send him back to 12 his unit. 13 MR. : Now, if he wasn't - now that 14 he wasn't coming back, is there any other 15 notification that comes up throughout the day 16 through III that he isn't coming back? 17 MS. : It would just be whatever 18 dispositions that the Marshals give us, provide 19 us with. 20 MR. : When does that disposition 21 come? 22 MS. : That just depends. Sometimes 23 we get it right away, sometimes they forget and 24 we got to pre-remove the inmate out because we 25 don't have nothing and we know that he went EFTA00115137

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 with the Marshals. But sometimes we get it as 2 soon as possible and sometimes we don't get it 3 until the next day. 4 MR. : So there is a disposition 5 form that comes in afterwards. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : What is it? What does the 8 form look like? What does it state on it? 9 MS. : It's just a United States 10 Marshals form and it'll say, "Disposition of 11 - it'll be time served, maybe the judge 12 released somebody on recognizance. Just 13 whatever the judge just might - the judge might 14 have dismissed the case. Just whatever 15 happened at court is what will be - it might be 16 a bail bond. Might be a release to Probation. 17 MR. : And where is that form kept? 18 MS. : It would be in the inmate's 19 folder. 20 MR. : Do you recall seeing any 21 forms for - disposition forms for inmate Reyes? 22 MS. : I don't remember. 23 MR. : And what is done with 24 that information once it's received? 25 MS. : We retain it in the inmate's EFTA00115138

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 folder and we key the inmate out and 2 MR. : Or is the information 3 disseminated throughout or no? 4 MS. : Do we give Control those? 5 No, we don't give Control a copy. I don't 6 think we give Control a copy of the disposition 7 form because they - we don't give them a copy 8 of it. 9 MR. : So this circles back to 10 what we talked about before. So once you find 11 out an inmate is definitively not coming back, 12 you do not contact anyone to say, "This guy 13 didn't come back." 14 MS. : We key them out and normally 15 the Control Officer, if you have a good counts 16 and assignments officer, and he's paying 17 attention, he'll say, "Oh, you guys keyed one 18 out?" We'll say, "Yeah, he's not coming back, 19 he got time served or the Marshals took him and 20 he's not coming back." 21 MR. : The III doesn't 22 proactively provide that information. 23 MS. : No, because they're supposed 24 to automatically be checking the computer to - 25 like a checks and balance, so it's something EFTA00115139

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 that's automatic. When we have inmates going 2 out to court, we have a receipt that we give to 3 the Marshals and a copy also goes downstairs to 4 the Control Center as well, so the Control has 5 a copy of every move we do in III, so they get 6 a copy of that. 7 MR. : Can you recall any situations 8 where an inmate leaves for court and III is 9 notified, "Hey, listen, the inmate is not 10 coming back," where III actually called the 11 unit to let them know, "Hey, he's not coming 12 back?" 13 MS. : Yeah, we have. We have. 14 MR. : Is that because they 15 requested to be notified or is it because, is 16 that something that III normally does? 17 MS. : No, we might have - it might 18 have been that the inmate had property upstairs 19 and we might need him to secure the inmate's 20 property and bring it down. So, that's 21 normally sometimes why we might notify the unit 22 officer because sometimes the inmate, they'll 23 call back to the jail and say, "Oh, they 24 released me. I got my property upstairs." And 25 we'll call upstairs to the unit officer and EFTA00115140

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 say, "Hey, inmate so and so is not coming back, 2 can you secure his property?" 3 MR. : Okay. Before you left for 4 the day on August 9th, do you recall talking to 5 any COs about Reyes leaving? 6 MS. : I don't recall that, no. 7 MR. : I know we covered this as 8 part of previous conversation, so I'm going to 9 go through it quick. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : On August 10th when you came 12 on shift, which counts were you involved in? 13 MS. : I didn't take the counts, I 14 was number one in the Control Center. So my 15 number two person takes the counts. 16 MR. : Number two? Who was the 17 number two, do you recall? 18 MS. : Was it (Phonetic Sp. 19 *01:55:47)? 20 MR. : You can just look at that 21 for the daily assignments. 22 MR. : Just look at 10th, it's going 23 to be 10th. 24 MS. -: 25 MR. -: (Phonetic Sp. EFTA00115141

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 *01:55:59). 2 MS. : He was in the Control Center 3 with me. 4 MR. : Okay. And do recall 5 taking the midnight count? 6 MS. : I believe she came and took 7 the midnight count. 8 MR. : Were you present for it? 9 MS. : I was in the Control Center - 10 11 MR. : But -. 12 MS. : -- but I wasn't focused on 13 them taking the count. I was focused on 14 counting my equipment, accounting for my 15 equipment. 16 MR. : Do you recall any issues with 17 the count? 18 MS. : Not that I know of. Not that 19 I recall. 20 MR. : And do you recall who called 21 in the count from the SHU? 22 MS. : Not that I can recall. 23 MR. : What about the 3:00 a.m. and 24 the 5:00 a.m.? 25 MS. : I know one of them called the EFTA00115142

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 count in because that's the only way we can 2 clear a count. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : So I don't remember who 5 called but I know somebody did call in the 6 count. 7 MR. : Do you recall during the 8 middle of the count calling the 9 SHU, having conversation with the CO in there? 10 MS. : I don't know because a lot of 11 times they'll call downstairs when they're 12 calling in the count and she'll have short 13 conversations with the officers, so I can't say 14 whether she called them or they called her, I 15 don't know. 16 MR. : Do you recall if there was a 17 second count slip sent up for the SHU for the 18 midnight count? 19 MS. : No, I can't recall, I don't 20 know. 21 MR. : Can COs just call in the 22 previous number or do they have to physically 23 do the count? 24 MS. : No, they have to count. 25 MR. : Why? EFTA00115143

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 MS. : You're counting for living, 2 breathing bodies. 3 MR. : Once the counts are done, do 4 the COs have to notify you? 5 MS. : They're supposed to call the 6 Control Center and call in their count. They 7 call the control two, which is 6468, and they 8 call in their count. 9 MR. : Do the COs fill out any 10 paperwork for the count? 11 MS. : A count slip. A count slip. 12 MR. : Think we pretty much covered 13 a lot of the other questions. Do you have 14 anything on that topic? 15 MR. : Who all has access to 16 update the E-1 document? 17 MS. : Who all has access to update 18 it? The Control Center officers. 19 MR. : When you say, "officer," 20 just the Control Center officers is what you 21 mean? 22 MS. : Whoever works in the Control 23 24 MR. : Right. 25 MS. : -- but a lot of times, most EFTA00115144

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 of the officers were shifted around working 2 Control, so primarily, if you work the Control 3 Center as a counts and assignments officer, you 4 had access to printing out an E-1. All the 5 Lieutenants have access, III had access, but we 6 don't have access to that no more. 7 MR. : But at that point, did you 8 guys have access? 9 MS. : Yeah, because you have to 10 prepare this for the count, so yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : But we don't have access 13 anymore. 14 MR. : So Control Officers, 15 Lieutenants, anyone else? 16 MS. : 17 MR. : And that anyone who has 18 worked in Control at that time, at least they 19 maintained the access for a certain amount of 20 period afterwards? 21 MS. : Yeah, Uh-huh. 22 MR. : Do you know how long that 23 period of time was at that point? 24 MS. : I don't think - I think if 25 you had access to it, you just had access to EFTA00115145

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 it. It don't think it was no 2 MR. : So, given access once, 3 you got it until -- 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- they revoke it. 6 MS. : Right. Uh-huh. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : I don't think it was - yeah, 9 it was no time frame that I know of. 10 MR. : You have any other questions 11 on that? When you were in - are you aware 12 there were cameras inside the MCC on August 9th 13 and 10th? 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : When you were in Control, did 16 you have access to see the cameras? 17 MS. : Yeah, you - the cameras in 18 the - it's like little TV screens with little 19 individual boxes of different areas of the 20 institution. 21 MR. : Could you see the SHU in 22 there? 23 MS. : No. You could only see over 24 a balcony looking down to the MP and it was 25 like far off so it's like the camera is up on a EFTA00115146

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 balcony and just looking all the way down over 2 there. You don't really - can't really see 3 nothing. 4 MR. : Was it clear? 5 MS. : No. It's like, if you see, 6 you might have seen a body move here and there, 7 but you can't really tell - you couldn't really 8 - it wasn't clear, no. 9 MR. : Did you ever hear that the 10 cameras are not working, offline or not 11 recording? 12 MS. : All the time. 13 MR. : And was there complaints 14 filed - told to anybody specific? The Captain, 15 Lieutenant? 16 MS. : I believe notifications were 17 made, like especially if we're in the Control 18 Center, we would call the com tech and say, 19 "Hey, this camera might have went out." So 20 yeah, notifications were made. 21 MR. : And did they fix it 22 immediately? 23 MS. : At that time, no, things 24 weren't getting fixed immediately, no. 25 MR. : Do you recall seeing Michael EFTA00115147

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 Thomas (Indiscernible *02:00:56) on the camera 2 on the night - on the morning watch of August 3 10th? 4 MS. : You can't see really from the 5 camera that I had access to, you can't really 6 see - you can't - you barely could see because 7 it's like, I don't know if you've ever been in 8 our SHU. Have you ever been in the SHU? 9 MR. : That's -. 10 MR. : No, we have pictures but 11 we've never -- 12 MR. : That's this picture. 13 MR. actually been there. 14 MS. : So, you can't really see. 15 MR. : I'm showing you a picture. 16 MS. : This is -. 17 MR. : Is this the view? 18 MS. : Yeah, that's exactly, yeah, 19 this is it. So like, if they were in a black 20 hoodie or something, you can't see nobody over 21 there. If their back is turned and the chairs 22 are - you can't really see. You might see a 23 body walk across or you might see a body walk 24 down, but you can't really see. It's not a 25 real good copy. But yeah, that's exactly what EFTA00115148

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 I'm talking about. 2 MR. : Do you have anything else on 3 the cameras? 4 MR. : No, just when you're in 5 the Control Center, does it - is there any 6 indication saying that if a camera is working 7 but not recording? No. There's no way for you 8 to know if a camera is recording or not? 9 MS. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Just if it was actually 11 live or not. 12 MS. : Uh-huh. You would just know 13 that the camera is up. You don't know - I 14 wouldn't have been able to tell you that, I 15 don't know. Huh-uh. 16 MR. : Okay. And did you, prior 17 to 6:33, when a body alarm was set off, did you 18 notice anything unusual happening in the 19 institution on any cameras? Specifically, i 20 guess the SHU one that you couldn't see that 21 well anyway? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : No. Okay. 24 MS. : Huh-uh. 25 MR. : There was no other angles EFTA00115149

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 from the SHU you could see? 2 MS. : No. This is all I - that's 3 all you could see. 4 MR. : Anything else on that? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : Now just a few other 7 questions. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Do you recall anyone going 10 into the SHU that night, on August 10th? 11 MS. : August 10th, that's the 12 Saturday? 13 MR. : That's Saturday, overnight. 14 MR. : The morning that Epstein 15 was found dead. 16 MS. : Going in? The morning he was 17 found or -- 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MS. : -- or the night prior to him 20 being found? 21 MR. : Both is fine. 22 MS. : Well, I know the Lieutenant 23 made rounds. 24 MR. : Lieutenant who? 25 MS. -: , she made rounds EFTA00115150

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 because they have to call the door, so we have 2 to pop her in. 3 MR. : So when he says "night," 4 he's talking about midnight to 6:30 -- 5 MS. : Right. Yeah. 6 MR. : -- right. 7 MS. : So, Lieutenant, she made 8 rounds on the unit because the SHU staff called 9 the door for her to pop - for us to pop her 10 into the SHU and when they call the door, when 11 you hit that door, a visual of the door, who 12 standing in front of the door pops up in the 13 Control Center, so you know who is going into 14 the SHU. During the body alarm, our usual 15 staff just responds to a body alarm, so, you 16 know they say, "Hey, we have a medical 17 emergency in SHU," or wherever they call. You 18 got the SHU crew calling the door so staff can 19 run in and assist, so, whoever ran in, I 20 couldn't tell you. But whoever was on shift az 21 that time, responded. 22 MR. : So the only one overnight 23 would be at that - before his body was found 24 would be Lieutenant 25 MS. : Lieutenant EFTA00115151

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 internal. If he had -. 2 MR. : Who is internal? 3 MS. _: 4 MR. : Do you recall 5 requesting to go into the SHU? 6 MS. : He would - he don't really 7 he wouldn't really have a reason to go into 8 SHU, not unless they're calling for you to come 9 in and do something or he's going in, you know, 10 because normally, the two officers will count, 11 they'll put their count slip on the door and 12 the internal officer, he'll pick up the count 13 slip on his rounds while he's counting the 14 other units. So, if he doesn't have a reason 15 to go in the SHU, he won't go in SHU. 16 MR. : Okay. Do you know if there's 17 any other way that anyone can get through that 18 outer door of the SHU without Control buzzing 19 them in? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : Is the -. 22 MS. : You would need an emergency 23 key that you would have to get from the Control 24 Center. But no one gets those keys. And 25 especially on morning watch when there's no EFTA00115152

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 need for us to give out those keys. Staff are 2 calling the door, so, no, there's no other way 3 to get in that unit. 4 MR. : Are those keys kept open or 5 is it just it's locked up? 6 MS. : It's behind a door in the 7 bathroom in the Control Center. 8 MR. : And that would get you 9 through the first door. Do you know if there's 10 a second set of keys for the internal door for 11 the SHU kept in the Control Center? 12 MS. : We have keys for most of the 13 doors, yes. But those door - the inner door, 14 the Unit Officer would have, the inner door, he 15 has access to that. So the Unit Officers have 16 those keys. 17 MR. : We're just asking just to 18 clarify, if - do you know if anyone checked out 19 the keys for the inner door or the outer door 20 out of the Control Center that night? 21 MS. : The outer door, those keys 22 never get checked out, but the inner door, that 23 key is a key pretty much like a - you have to 24 put a chit on the Control Center and 25 MR. : Put a what? EFTA00115153

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 MS. : A chit. 2 MR. : What's that? 3 MS. : So it's like a chit system. 4 I have a pair of keys. In order for me to get 5 these keys from Control, I have to turn in a 6 chit -- 7 MR. : So it's basically 8 MS. -- with my name. Yeah, you 9 have to turn in a chit. So it's -. 10 MR. : A key chain with your name on 11 it. 12 MS. : Yeah, it's a chit. Uh-huh. 13 And you - it's like a - what is it, what would 14 you call it? Accountability. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : So, you put the chit on it, 17 you give the person a key. In order to get the 18 chit back, you got to give them the key back, 19 then you get the chit back. 20 MR. : Do you recall if anyone did 21 that for the SHU keys that night? 22 MS. : I don't recall. But I don' t 23 recall that, no. 24 MR. : Okay. I've got nothing else. 25 Do you - is there any questions that you think EFTA00115154

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 that we didn't ask you about that you feel that 2 we should ask you about? 3 MS. : Hm. 4 MR. : In regards to this Epstein 5 investigation? 6 MS. Mm, no, I think that's -. 7 MR. : Do you believe Epstein 8 took his own life? 9 MS. : I believe so. 10 MR. : Do you have any reason to 11 believe that anyone took Epstein's life aside 12 from himself? 13 MS. : No. 14 MR. : Do you have any knowledge 15 of anyone assisting Epstein with taking his 16 life? 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : No. I believe he had a lot 20 on his plate and this environment was a culture 21 shock to him then. I think that he took his 22 own life. 23 MR. : Now the fact that we 24 don't have camera from that tier - oh, I wanted 25 to circle back with you. So our understanding EFTA00115155

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 from the camera technicians and everyone else 2 is that there were actually at that time 3 cameras down each range, they just weren't 4 recording. 5 MS. : Oh. 6 MR. : Do you know anything 7 about that? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : Do you know - do you have 10 any reason to believe that someone knocked 11 those cameras off line intentionally so that 12 they stopped recording? 13 MS. : No. No. I don't believe 14 that. No. No. 15 MR. : All right. And you don't 16 know anything about that? 17 MS. : No. No. That's a good one. 18 MR. : Well, it's just there's a 19 lot of coincidences in this one. 20 MS. : Yeah. It's unfortunate. You 21 know, this building is still deteriorating as 22 we speak, so, it just - a lot of repairs and 23 maintenance that needs to be done in this 24 institution. It's - yeah. Yeah. 25 MR. : That's all. EFTA00115156

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lr 1 MR. : That's it? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Well, thank you for taking 4 the time to talk to us. 5 MS. : You're welcome. You're 6 welcome. 7 MR. : This is Special Agent 8 The time is 6:12 p.m. on Thursday, 9 July 15, 2021. We're ending the interview and 10 turning off the recorder. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115157

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Transcriber EFTA00115158