LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 MS. : I don't recall any of that, 2 no. 3 MR. : Do you recall her -. 4 MS. : Because I didn't prepare the 5 count, so, I didn't - if I'm the Control 6 Officer, I'm Control one, so my second body is 7 the one that's preparing the counts and taking 8 the counts and viewing the count slips with the 9 Lieutenant is not there. I'm in charge of the 10 radios, they keys, you know, like a count and 11 making sure that all my equipment is accounted 12 for, letting staff know, "Hey, we're on duty." 13 We got to do a PREApre-announcement and going 14 over equipment and stuff, all those type of 15 things, so no, I didn't - I wouldn't be aware 16 of this if I didn't prepare it, no. 17 MR. : So what happened? Was 18 figured out - and this is where 19 we were hoping you can help us a little bit. 20 And she figured out that Fernandez, who was 21 placed on dry cell at 3:15, was never keyed out 22 of the SHU. 23 MS. : Ah. 24 MR. : However, they're still 25 reporting - because he was never keyed out, EFTA00114950

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 they're still reporting 73, 73, 73 -- 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- although there's only 4 72 inmates in the SHU. 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. somehow 7 figures out, you guys don't have 73, you've got 8 72 and then either she or someone in Control or 9 whomever, keys him out. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : And so what we want to 12 know is do you remember that happening or the 13 circumstances around that? 14 MS. : No. 15 MR. : No, you don't? Does this 16 tell you anything about if these counts were 17 conducted? The 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 p.m. 18 and the 12:00 a.m.? 19 MS. : This just shows that this was 20 conducted. 21 MR. : No, not the E-ls, the 22 counts in the SHU. 23 MR. : Count slips. If the counts 24 were wrong. 25 MR. : So all of them are saying EFTA00114951

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 73 all though there's only 72 people. 2 Fernandez leaves at 3:15. So knowing that you 3 work in SHU, you work in R&D 4 MS. Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- and also you can look 6 at the -. 7 MS. : Well -. 8 MR. : So these R&D slips show 9 that there's one person in there. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Although - 12 MS. : This is 9 -. 13 MR. : Nine south. 14 MR. : So what does that mean? So 15 R&D, so on this here, the midnight one, right? 16 MR. : And also, just please 17 take note of the checks that are all over them. 18 There's no checks on these two. So, and that's 19 the 10:00 p.m. we're looking at. So, we're 20 just trying to piece this thing together. 21 MS. : Normally, I'm just going to, 22 for my experience, when I've had to plus a one, 23 it's because it's a WITSEC inmate that we could 24 not key in because only certain individuals 25 have the authority and capacity to key those EFTA00114952

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 individuals in. So, if I got an inmate in SHU 2 that's a WITSEC and staff can't key him in 3 until maybe the Unit Manager of the WITSEC Unit 4 comes in and keys him in or whatever unit team 5 of the WITSEC Unit, we would plus that one 6 because that would show that that's the body 7 that's there that we cannot account for but 8 he's there. That would have - I don't know 9 what this is. 10 MR. : Do you recognize whose 11 handwriting that is? The 9S plus one? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : Do you know if it's yours 15 by chance? 16 MS. : No, that's -. 17 MR. : Definitely not yours? My 18 assumption is that was written at midnight, but 19 we still can't figure it out. That's what 20 we're still trying to figure out. We would 21 have thought that the plus one stuff would have 22 happened at the 10:00 p.m. count since we 23 believe that that's when Reyes was keyed in. 24 he was keyed in on the 10th for the 9th because 25 - not Reyes, I'm sorry, Fernandez. EFTA00114953

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MS. : Normally, when a Lieutenant 2 checks off the slips, it's because they're 3 verifying that it's the unit, it's the accurate 4 count, it's the accurate date, time and staff 5 signature print of two staff members. That's 6 normally how Lieutenant would mark off a count 7 slip to verify that 8 MR. : I want to show - so does -. 9 MR. : Is that telling to you at 10 all that the fact that these aren't checked 11 off? 12 MS. : I don't know why they aren't 13 checked off. I couldn't tell you why, I don't 14 know. 15 MR. : But those plus ones, 16 aside from possibly a WITSEC type of thing, 17 would that make sense with whether it would be 18 a plus one on R&D and a plus one though on ZA? 19 MS. : Minus - not unless there - 20 the only thing I can gather is that they're 21 saying that this plus one is the inmate that's 22 still keyed to SHU but is sitting in R&D. 23 That's the only thing -. 24 MR. : And that would be my 25 assumption too. IS that they're saying there's EFTA00114954

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 73 bodies in SHU plus one who's actually in 2 R&D. 3 MS. : Right. 4 MR. : But that 73 is still off 5 so I guess what the question would be is, the 6 fact that they're using the number that Control 7 has, although they only have 72 in their actual 8 housing unit. 9 MS. : Can I just -- 10 MR. : Absolutely. 11 MS. read this again. 12 MR. : It also tells us that 13 or I won't say what it tells us, but I just 14 want to know what it tells you. 15 MR. : Which one do you need? 16 MS. : Yeah, I don't see 17 MR. : It's the midnight one. 18 MS. : Okay, now you had gave me 19 you had another log. 20 MR. : The 5:00 p 21 MS. : Didn't you have two logs? 22 MR. : So there was another one, but 23 that's -. 24 MR. : There's the August 10th 25 log. Okay. EFTA00114955

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. : But I didn't show you the 2 August 10th. 3 MS. : No, you showed me something 4 with Lieutenant Perez. 5 MR. : I know, that's in one -- 6 MS. : Oh. 7 MR. : -- but this is evening watch. 8 MS. : Oh, okay. 9 MR. : This -. 10 MS. : Oh, that's the same. Okay. 11 MR. : Yeah. So -. 12 MS. : All right. I just want to -. 13 MR. : There's a day watch and 14 night. 15 MR. : You sure, you're getting 16 awful close. 17 MR. : I'm okay. Unless she says 18 need it. 19 MR. : Would you like a piece? 20 MS. : Okay, so his ending was 72 21 and he has this guy up here and this is 10 22 o'clock. This is the 9:00. 23 MR. : So you want the 10:00 p.m. 24 count? 25 MS. : Yeah. EFTA00114956

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : Here's the 10:00 p.m. count. 2 MS. : Okay. So this is the 10 3 o'clock count. Okay, so, he's not keyed into 4 R&D. So, this is where your plus one is. So 5 he's still showing in Special Housing but he's 6 in R&D during the 10 o'clock count. So this is 7 what makes your 73. This is the 10 o'clock? 8 MR. : But is that also weird 9 though that this count cleared with an R&D 10 slip. R&D 1 that's never checked off. There's 11 nothing on the E-1 for R&D? 12 MS. : Hm, okay this is acting on 13 way before clock one. 14 MR. : Before clock one, the one 15 we initially showed you where -- 16 MS. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- he's also never keyed 18 in. And it is our beliefve, per the person who 19 said that they keyed him in, it was done after 20 midnight. 21 MS. : Hm. 22 MR. : Are you allowed to count an 23 inmate that you can't see? 24 MS. : No. 25 MR. : If inmate Fernandez was moved EFTA00114957

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., who should have counted him as part of their count slip? MS. : At 3:15? MR. : Yeah, he was moved at 3:15 and the 4:00 p.m. count was a SHU that should have counted him on the count slip or was it supposed to be R&D? MS. : Well, to be honest with you, because I work in R&D and I'm going to tell you what goes on, they drop inmates in there and they don't - a lot of the times, staff - that's why now we tell them, "Tell us what you're bringing inmates down here for." Because they would bring an inmate down and place that inmate in a cell. You won't know because you're busy dealing with the Marshals, you're dealing whatever movement you have going on in R&D and you won't know that they brought an inmate down in a cell. So, it could work both ways that, you know, maybe they figured they were just going to place him down there, keep him down there and then upstairs. So, it could things, but I just know maybe bring him back have been a number of from experience, inmates have been brought into my R&D that we EFTA00114958

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 weren't aware of and we realized, walking 2 around R&D, "Yeah, we got an inmate in here." 3 "What is he down here for?" So -. 4 MR. : So this, for me 5 personally, the E-1 isn't as concerning on the 6 4:00 p.m., although -- 7 MS. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : -- the count slip is. 9 Because the R&- it was so close to the 4:00 10 p.m. count. It's -- 11 MS. : So -. 12 MR. : -- to the 10:00, this is 13 where I start getting like -. 14 MS. : So, on -. 15 MR. : Because there is no R&D 16 count slip although there's an R&D count slip 17 in this one that's never checked off, but it 18 also has no E-1 notification. So that -. 19 MS. : And -. 20 MR. : And to me, it seems like 21 the count slips were created after the fact or 22 manipulated or deleted or something, I don't 23 know. 24 MS. : I don't know neither. 25 MR. : So let -. EFTA00114959

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Okay. 2 MR. : As he mentions 3 MS. : Wait a minute. I just want 4 to see. So at 4 o'clock they had 75. 5 MR. : But technically at that 6 point, they were missing three inmates. Reyes 7 had gone, Fernandez was moved and Epstein was 8 sitting in attorney conference. 9 MR. : Yeah. And it doesn't -. 10 MS. : Well -. 11 MR. : For which 12 MS. : Okay, but where's attorney 13 conference? Oh, here it is. So, this is 14 attorney conference right here. This is the 15 counselor for attorney conference. 16 MR. : That would say, SATTY on top. 17 Okay. 18 MS. : Yes. So this is attorney 19 conference. 20 MR. : Right, that's the one. 21 MS. : This is all the inmates out 22 to court with Southern District. Is it? 23 MR. : So yeah, physically 24 present -- 25 MS. : So -. EFTA00114960

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 MR. : -- in the SHU at 4:00 was 2 the 75 although -- 3 MS. : Right. 4 MR. : I mean 74. 5 MS. : Not (Indiscernible 6 *01:33:26). 7 MR. : Although they reported 75 8 because Fernandez -- 9 MS. : Okay, well you -- 10 MR. : -- was (Indiscernible 11 *01:33:31). 12 MS. : -- Epstein accounted for in 13 attorney conference. But this is an out count. 14 MR. : Correct. 15 MS. : And he's keyed on the out 16 count and this is what shows where he is 17 actually sitting in key two at that time so 18 this shows that he's in attorney conference. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MS. : Because he's keyed out on the 21 out count to attorney conference. And what I 22 was expressing to you guys earlier about the 23 courts, how we used to do it, (Indiscernible 24 *01:34:01) maybe it's a couple (Indiscernible 25 *01:34:02). Okay, this is what we used to do EFTA00114961

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 in R&D as far as the out count. So, this would 2 say the inmate out toe court, name, register 3 number, what unit and cell he came from and how 4 many from whatever his unit is. So if we had 5 three out from that unit to court, it would be 6 three or whatever, however many numbers and 7 this is how we would - this is what would show 8 in the system that the inmate went out to court 9 that day. 10 MR. : And that's an inmate you're 11 expecting back? 12 MS. : Right. 13 MR. : So if Reyes is not on there, 14 does that mean that Reyes is gone and you're 15 not expecting him back? 16 MS. : Well, if he was keyed out at 17 8 - what did that say, 8:33? 18 MR. : 8:38, yeah. 19 MS. : Then he wouldn't show up on 20 this as an out count because that means he's 21 keyed out. 22 MR. : He's gone, okay. 23 MS. : Right. So -. 24 MR. : So people that are going 25 to court that are expected to come back would EFTA00114962

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 be on that sheet. MS. : Right. But we don't - MR. : But Reyes was not expected to come back. MS. : Right. And from the looks of this, I didn't work that shift. That wasn't my shift. MR. : Yeah, no, and we didn't believe it was. We're -. MR. : You might have left beforehand? MS. : I might have left - this might have been the day shift and I might have worked the evening shift, so I might have worked - I don't even know. But I just know that I wasn't dealing with the courts, the movement at that time, just from looking at the out count. MR. : Okay. So now that we know that the count was off over here and that the 10:00 p.m. count, according to the Lieutenant's log, says 72, but 10:00 p.m. says 73 plus one - MS. : Uh-huh. MR. : -- right, and now R&D EFTA00114963

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 actually is reporting that there is an inmate 2 in there 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- except they're still 5 reporting 73 plus one. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : And then at midnight - where 8 is the - midnight it says 72 over here and the 9 count slip shows 73. What does that tell you 10 about the counts that were done in the SHU? 11 MR. : What he's asking, if 12 there's only 72 people in there and they're 13 reporting 73 and it just so happened to 14 coincide. And this one - and you need to know 15 that background information. 16 MS. : Okay, so this is what - 17 MR. : They reported 73 and the 18 Ops Lieutenant who took the count, found out it 19 was actually only 72, made the change and 20 changed Reye- and keyed Fernandez out. 21 MS. : Okay. 22 MR. : So what is asking 23 you is the fact that they reported 73 on all 24 these, does that indicate anything to you about 25 the counts if they were done or were they not EFTA00114964

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 done? 2 MS. : Yeah, this looks like someone 3 wasn't paying attention because this - what 4 does this look like to you? 5 MR. : Well, that's what I was 6 going to ask. What is RA? That -. 7 MS. : RA is where that guy was 8 sitting at on dry cell. 9 MR. : Is that R&D? 10 MS. : Yes. So he was - so, because 11 it's now the 12 o'clock count and it's prior to 12 the count, they can go ahead and key him in 13 where he's actually assigned. So it seems that 14 during the 10 o'clock count, he was still keyed 15 to SHU so, what was it, plus one or something? 16 So now at 12 o'clock, because he wasn't keyed 17 there at 10 o'clock, they keyed him there now 18 before the 12 o'clock count which is correct 19 and accurate and what they should have done, 20 but now he's plus one - he's here where he 21 should be where he stated on this notification, 22 right, so that's accurate. But, if he's no 23 longer here, they should have been putting 24 what's here. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00114965

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 MS. : Because he's not plus one up 2 there no more. 3 MR. : Yeah. So this one is 4 clearly that they're off. These guys though, 5 are still even with that 73 plus one, it should 6 have been 72 plus one if they're trying to say, 7 "We got one outside." It shouldn't be 73 plus 8 one. They're utilizing the same number it 9 looks like on the E-1. Somehow it seems that 10 they had that number, that base count number 11 and they knew, "We need - this is the number we 12 need to report, but also we got a plus one over 13 in R&D." 14 MS. : Right 15 MR. : So they're still off on 16 their count. Does that indicate to you that 17 they didn't actually conduct the count, they 18 just used the number that they thought they 19 were supposed to report? 20 MS. : It doesn't indicate that they 21 didn't count. 22 MR. : Because if they counted - 23 24 MS. : I -. 25 MR. : -- wouldn't they have the EFTA00114966

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 right number? 2 MS. : Sometimes you can count stuff 3 4 MR. : But wouldn't it be really 5 coincidental if they miscount at the exact 6 number that they were supposed to actually 7 provide? They definitely miscounted, but 8 there's 72 people in there and they just happen 9 to miscount exactly what the E-1 shows that 10 they were supposed to count. 11 MS. : Yeah. 12 MR. : It's coincidences and the 13 fact that it happened twice in a row, what does 14 that tell you? 15 MR. : No, three times in a row. 16 MR. : Three times. 17 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 18 MR. : That's right. 19 MR. : -- 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 20 a.m. 21 MS. : I'm not going to answer that. 22 MR. : Well, based on your 23 experience, right? You're experience of 24 working in Control, working in R&D, what do you 25 think happened? Do you think that they did the EFTA00114967

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 count or not? 2 MS. : I'm not going to answer that 3 one. 4 MR. : How would have they 5 gotten that number that they were supposed to 6 report? 7 MS. : By probably just looking in 8 their log and seeing, "Okay, when you take over 9 my post, oh, we got 72 guys. One is in R&D but 10 they still got him keyed to our unit." Based 11 on maybe what someone told them. 12 MR. : And when you worked in 13 the unit at midnight, do you remember this 14 being an issue at all? Because this is where 15 we're told the Ops Lieutenant who took the 16 count, , she -- 17 MS. : She had -. 18 MR. : -- had to run around and 19 try to figure this thing out. She's the one 20 who had to like come in and say like, "Okay, 21 where - who's what, where and I can verify 22 this." Do you remember that at all? 23 MS. : No. 24 MR. : Do you remember any 25 telephone calls with the SHU saying, "You got a EFTA00114968

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 bad count, you got to recount?" 2 MS. : No, if she's taking the 3 count, I let her deal with it. I don't - I 4 work on whatever else. 5 MR. : Okay. So you're not 6 actually involved with her while she's doing 7 it? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : Okay. And you wouldn't 10 have been, being that you came from R&D, you 11 wouldn't have been the person that she said, 12 "Can you verify with R&D that this person is 13 there?" 14 MS. : If she asks me and that's 15 what I did then, but I don't recall that. 16 MR. : X —You don't recall -- 17 MS. : I don't know anything about 18 that. 19 MR. : -- doing that? Okay. 20 MS. Huh-uh. 21 MR. : You don't remember at ail 22 though in that specific - you do - did you 23 recall her being there at all? 24 MS. : Yeah, she was there. 25 MR. : So you remember her being EFTA00114969

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 in Control Center? 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : And you 4 MS. : Because she also made rounds 5 on the units. She walked around the 6 institution. 7 MR. : All right. And then as 8 far as being keyed in and out, so I guess it's 9 he BP-38, would that show when Fernandez was 10 actually keyed in and out of the system on 11 August 10th? 12 MS. : Fernandez? The guy from -. 13 MR. : So Fernandez, 3:15, who 14 was never -- 15 MS. : Oh, the -. 16 MR. : -- keyed out. He wasn't 17 keyed out. 18 MS. : The dry cell guy? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MS. : Yeah, it would show on a 38. 21 MR. : On the 38 it would 22 actually show what time? 23 MS. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : And how do we get that? 25 So just make a note, we got to get the 38 for EFTA00114970

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 MR. : That (Indiscernible 2 *01:41:43). 3 MS. : Since it goes back -- 4 MR. : That's the same document I 5 showed you? 6 MS. : -- only 45 days. 7 MR. : Okay. So we wouldn't 8 even be able to get it at this point? 9 Hopefully that day maintained that. 10 MS. : Well, SENTRY only goes back 11 45 days, so 12 MR. : You're talking about this 13 document? 14 MS. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Now what if they did save 16 these documents back then, would we be able to 17 see when he was keyed in? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MS. : If they saved it, yeah. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : But if it's -- 22 MR. : And -. 23 MS. : -- not saved, it only goes 24 back 45 days. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114971

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. : All right, I got. 2 MR. : So that will be very 3 telling as well if we can get that. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Before you start taking 6 everything away, there's an issue with initials 7 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- and dates. 10 MR. : Being that I showed you these 11 12 MR. : Just the top. 13 MR. : -- documents, same as before. 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Can you just initial and date 16 the top? 17 MS. : (Indiscernible *01:42:27) 18 this one. 19 MR. : Do you know anything 20 about counts not actually being conducted at 21 this time in August of 2019? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : When you would work on 24 the custody side of the house, would you be 25 involved in things like counts? EFTA00114972

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 MS. : If I'm counting a unit with 2 an officer, yeah. Or if I'm the one taking the 3 count, yes. If I'm -. 4 MR. : Did you ever do any 5 counts in the SHU? 6 MS. : I've done counts in the SHU - 7 8 MR. : You have. 9 MS. -- but -. 10 MR. : And when you were there, 11 did they actually conduct the counts? 12 MS. : When I do counts, I conduct 13 counts, yeah. 14 MR. : Yeah, yeah, but I mean, 15 I'm not talking about you, I know you did, but 16 I mean -- 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : -- the people that were 19 there with you, were they actually, you know, 20 you're supposed to have two people to count. 21 Was the other person -- 22 MS. : Well, if I -- 23 MR. : also counting? 24 MS. : -- have - if I'm working, 25 you'recah, counting, so it's no - it's not a EFTA00114973

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 question. We're not even having that 2 conversation, so. 3 MR. : Did you ever have anybody 4 push back on you like, "No, no, no, we're 5 good?" 6 MS. : No. 7 MR. : Have you heard of people who 8 when they're starting the shift, just filling 9 out the counts slips and the round sheets and 10 be like -. 11 MR. : Ahead of time. 12 MR. : Ahead of time. 13 MS. : Well, if they're on their own 14 unit, I can't tell you what they're doing on 15 their unit. I can only tell you what I'm doing 16 on my unit, so. 17 MR. : But like in the SHU, have 18 you ever heard of like people coming in and 19 pre-filling out both count slips and round 20 sheets at the very start of their shift? 21 MS. : If they've done it, I've 22 never seen it. 23 MR. : You've never seen it? 24 MR. : Have you ever heard of people 25 doing anything like that? EFTA00114974

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MS. : I've heard of it, but I don't 2 - I've never seen it. 3 MR. : Is that good practice? 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : Is it known that you 6 can't do that? 7 MS. : You're not supposed to do 8 that. 9 MR. : Does everyone know they 10 can't - especially if we're talking about round 11 sheets. Does everyone know that you can't go 12 and - say it goes from 8:00 a.m. until 12:00 13 p.m., you can't go in at 8:00 a.m. and write 14 out everything you did for a round all the way 15 to 12:00 p.m.? 16 MS. : You cannot do that because 17 anything can happen. An emergency can take 18 place. An inmate could get removed from your 19 unit. You can get a new guy. Any - there's a 20 number of things that could take place that you 21 are not supposed to - even your log book, pre- 22 fill out your log. 23 MR. : Is there any training 24 though that you all receive saying like, "You 25 got to do this when you're actually conducting EFTA00114975

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 the rounds?" And certainly, you know, maybe 2 after the fact is okay because you already did 3 it, but beforehand -. 4 MS. : Maybe if the Lieutenant sees 5 it, you know, they might say, "Hey, you know, 6 you're not supposed to pre-fill out your count 7 slips." They might say, you know, "You can 8 fill out the date, the time, the unit," you 9 might could even fill in your name, but you're 10 not supposed to put in the actual number 11 because you don't know what can happen, so. 12 MR. : But as far (Indiscernible 13 *01:45:26) talking about counts slips, I'm 14 talking about round sheets. 15 MS. : Oh. No, you're not supposed 16 to. They always tell - they - the Lieutenants 17 always say that you're not supposed - they 18 always tell everybody that. 19 MR. : And do you know if back 20 in August 2019, they were also saying that? 21 MS. : No, I don't know about that. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MS. : I don't know -. 24 MR. : And is there any training 25 that's provided to teach people how to actually EFTA00114976

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 fill out round sheets and counts slips or is it 2 supposed to be common sense? 3 MS. : Normally you're training on 4 the job as you go along, so if I'm new and, you 5 know, I'm training up under your officer, you 6 might show me certain things and people just 7 learn by asking questions and maybe another 8 officer just showing him ropes and everybody 9 don't do everything the way they're supposed to 10 do so. I might come in as a new officer and 11 you might be showing me stuff and it could be 12 completely wrong, but I'm doing what you showed 13 me because that's all I know. So, it just 14 depends on who's training who and who's showing 15 who what to do and that's pretty much it 16 because on the job, right now, we have new 17 staff training new staff. We have staff that's 18 here like a month training staff that's here a 19 week. So, the blind leading the blind. 20 MR. : So if someone makes the 21 excuse that, "No one ever told me I could do 22 that, but I saw other people filling out round 23 sheets ahead of time so that's why I did it," 24 is that an excuse do you believe? So you think 25 that that is an actual excuse to say like, EFTA00114977

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 "Well, he did it, so I did it," and that makes 2 it okay? Because don't you think it's pretty 3 common sense that, no, you can't - you're 4 certifying a document saying you conducted that 5 round at that time? 6 MS. : Yes, common sense to the 7 people that think outside the box and - but 8 common sense is not common to everybody and - 9 and I'm not trying to be a smart ass -- 10 MR. : No, no, no, it's very -. 11 MS. -- you know. 12 MR. : It's a good point 13 MS. : And, you know, I've been 14 doing law enforcement for a while, you know, 15 corrections, juveniles, school safety. So, 16 I've seen things on the job that make me take 17 my job seriously. But when you have no 18 knowledge, you have no experience, no 19 correctional background, you've never been 20 placed in an environment that you felt was that 21 dangerous for you to be as mindful as you 22 should be, you don't - and then nothing 23 happens, you follow what you see everybody else 24 doing in past practice and it's not always 25 right and a lot of people don't read what EFTA00114978

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 they're supposed to be doing, they just go by 2 what you tell them and what I could tell you 3 what to do, doesn't necessarily mean that 4 that's actually what you are supposed to be 5 doing. 6 MR. : Sure. 7 MS. : And if you don't read it in 8 black and white for yourself, how would you 9 know that this is actually what you should be 10 doing? And it's just a lack of training around 11 here. Staff are not being trained and that's 12 what creates a lot of our problems. We don't 13 have a bad institution, we just have a lack of 14 training, you know, and I don't think that 15 people are not willing to work, I think they 16 want to work, but it's a lack of training and 17 it's a lack of morale in the institution, so 18 think that's what the biggest problem is. 19 People are not being properly trained. So, 20 yeah, if I see you doing it, I think it's okay. 21 I'm not ever thinking, "Oh, you know what? 22 Maybe I shouldn't do that, something might 23 happen." If nothing ever really happens, so. 24 MR. : I have a few more questions 25 EFTA00114979

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. -- a few more, but we can 3 come back. Some of the questions are going to 4 be redundant -- 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : -- redundant because we asked 7 the questions -- 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : -- so I just got to cover it. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Do you know why Reyes was 12 removed from the MCC? 13 MS. : Is that the guy that went out 14 to court? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MS. : I would only know that 17 because he went to court. But looking at that 18 document, off the top of my head, I wouldn't be 19 able to recall off the top of my head why he 20 was removed, but I just know he went out to 21 court. 22 MR. : Were you ever instructed on 23 what actions to take -. 24 MR. : Well, let's follow up 25 with that. Looking at the Lieutenant's log, EFTA00114980

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 does that tell you something different? With 2 the Lieutenant's log and the BP-38? 3 MS. : You mean the PP-38. 4 MR. : Is it PP? 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : All right. I thought it 7 was like Bureau of Prisons, like BP. So it's 8 PP. 9 MR. : Somebody -. 10 MS. : PP. PP-38. 11 MR. : What does the PP stand 12 for? 13 MS. : It's a SENTRY function. I 14 don't know. Okay. Repeat your question again. 15 MR. : So looking at where it 16 says that Reyes left at -- 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- 8:38, and then as well 19 as with that document the R&D uses to key 20 people out, the PP-38. Does that tell you why 21 he would have left? 22 MS. : No, because this does not 23 necessarily tell you. It just tells you he was 24 removed out of the institution. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114981

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 MS. : So, no - I mean, you just 2 know that he's gone. You don't know why he's 3 gone, you just know he left. 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MS. : And same thing with that, you 6 just - you don't know why, you just know he 7 left. 8 MR. : Okay. You're talking about 9 the PP-38, right? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : How would the institution 12 know if Reyes was coming back from court? 13 MS. : R&D would know because he 14 would come back with the Marshals and we would 15 key him back in and we would send him back to 16 his unit. 17 MR. : Now, if he wasn't - now that 18 he wasn't coming back, is there any other 19 notification that comes up throughout the day 20 through R&D that he isn't coming back? 21 MS. : It would just be whatever 22 dispositions that the Marshals give us, provide 23 us with. 24 MR. : When does that disposition 25 come? EFTA00114982

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 MS. : That just depends. Sometimes 2 we get it right away, sometimes they forget and 3 we got to pre-remove the inmate out because we 4 don't have nothing and we know that he went 5 with the Marshals. But sometimes we get it as 6 soon as possible and sometimes we don't get it 7 until the next day. 8 MR. : So there is a disposition 9 form that comes in afterwards. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : What is it? What does the 12 form look like? What does it state on it? 13 MS. : It's just a United States 14 Marshals form and it'll say, "Disposition of 15 - it'll be time served, maybe the judge 16 released somebody on recognizance. Just 17 whatever the judge just might - the judge might 18 have dismissed the case. Just whatever 19 happened at court is what will be - it might be 20 a bail bond. Might be a release to Probation. 21 MR. : And where is that form kept? 22 MS. : It would be in the inmate's 23 folder. 24 MR. : Do you recall seeing any 25 forms for - disposition forms for inmate Reyes? EFTA00114983

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 MS. : I don't remember. 2 MR. : And what is done with 3 that information once it's received? 4 MS. : We retain it in the inmate's 5 folder and we key the inmate out and -. 6 MR. : Or is the information 7 disseminated throughout or no? 8 MS. : Do we give Control those? 9 No, we don't give Control a copy. I don't 10 think we give Control a copy of the disposition 11 form because they - we don't give them a copy 12 of it. 13 MR. : So this circles back to 14 what we talked about before. So once you find 15 out an inmate is definitively not coming back, 16 you do not contact anyone to say, "This guy 17 didn't come back." 18 MS. : We key them out and normally 19 the Control Officer, if you have a good counts 20 and assignments officer, and he's paying 21 attention, he'll say, "Oh, you guys keyed one 22 out?" We'll say, "Yeah, he's not coming back, 23 he got time served or the Marshals took him and 24 he's not coming back." 25 MR. : The R&D doesn't EFTA00114984

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 proactively provide that information. 2 MS. : No, because they're supposed 3 to automatically be checking the computer to - 4 like a checks and balance, so it's something 5 that's automatic. When we have inmates going 6 out to court, we have a receipt that we give to 7 the Marshals and a copy also goes downstairs to 8 the Control Center as well, so the Control has 9 a copy of every move we do in R&D, so they get 10 a copy of that. 11 MR. : Can you recall any situations 12 where an inmate leaves for court and R&D is 13 notified, "Hey, listen, the inmate is not 14 coming back," where R&D actually called the 15 unit to let them know, "Hey, he's not coming 16 back?" 17 MS. : Yeah, we have. We have. 18 MR. : Is that because they 19 requested to be notified or is it because, is 20 that something that R&D normally does? 21 MS. : No, we might have - it might 22 have been that the inmate had property upstairs 23 and we might need him to secure the inmate's 24 property and bring it down. So, that's 25 normally sometimes why we might notify the unit EFTA00114985

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 officer because sometimes the inmate, they'll 2 call back to the jail and say, "Oh, they 3 released me. I got my property upstairs." And 4 we'll call upstairs to the unit officer and 5 say, "Hey, inmate so and so is not coming back, 6 can you secure his property?" 7 MR. : Okay. Before he-ralleft for 8 the day on August 9th, do you recall talking to 9 any COs about Reyes leaving? 10 MS. : I don't recall that, no. 11 MR. : I know we covered this as 12 part of previous conversation, so I'm going to 13 go through it quick. 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : On August 10th when you came 16 on shift, which counts were you involved in? 17 MS. : I didn't take the counts, I 18 was number one in the Control Center. So my 19 number two person takes the counts. 20 MR. : Number two? Who was the 21 number two, do you recall? 22 MS. : Was it (Phonetic Sp. 23 *01:55:47)? 24 MR. : You can just look at that 25 for the daily assignments. EFTA00114986

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 MR. : Just look at 10th, it's going 2 to be 10th. 3 MS. _: 4 MR. -: (Phonetic Sp. 5 *01:55:59). 6 MS. : He was in the Control Center 7 with me. 8 MR. : Okay. And do recall 9 taking the midnight count? 10 MS. : I believe she came and took 11 the midnight count. 12 MR. : Were you present for it? 13 MS. : I was in the Control Center - 14 15 MR. : But -. 16 MS. : -- but I wasn't focused on 17 them taking the count. I was focused on 18 countinggeteifts my equipment, accounting for my 19 equipment. 20 MR. : Do you recall any issues with 21 the count? 22 MS. : Not that I know of. Not that 23 I recall. 24 MR. : And do you recall who called 25 in the count from the SHU? EFTA00114987

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 MS. : Not that I can recall. 2 MR. : What about the 3:00 a.m. and 3 the 5:00 a.m.? 4 MS. : I know one of them called the 5 count in because that's the only way we can 6 clear a count. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : So I don't remember who 9 called but I know somebody did call in the 10 count. 11 MR. : Do you recall during the 12 middle of the count calling the 13 SHU, having conversation with the CO in there? 14 MS. : I don't know because a lot of 15 times they'll call downstairs when they're 16 calling in the count and she'll have short 17 conversations with the officers, so I can't say 18 whether she called them or they called her, I 19 don't know. 20 MR. : Do you recall if there was a 21 second count slip sent up for the SHU for the 22 midnight count? 23 MS. : No, I can't recall, I don't 24 know. 25 MR. : Can COs just call in the EFTA00114988

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 previous number or do they have to physically 2 do the count? 3 MS. : No, they have to count. 4 MR. : Why? 5 MS. : You're counting for living, 6 breathing bodies. 7 MR. : Once the counts are done, do 8 the COs have to notify you? 9 MS. : They're supposed to call the 10 Control Center and call in their count. They 11 call the control two, which is 6468, and they 12 call in their count. 13 MR. : Do the COs fill out any 14 paperwork for the count? 15 MS. : A count slip. A count slip. 16 MR. : Think we pretty much covered 17 a lot of the other questions. Do you have 18 anything on that topic? 19 MR. : Who all has access t 20 update the E-1 document? 21 MS. : Who all has access to update 22 it? The Control Center officers. 23 MR. : When you say, "officer," 24 just the Control Center officers is what you 25 mean? EFTA00114989

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 MS. : Whoever works in the Control 2 3 MR. : Right. 4 MS. but a lot of times, most 5 of the officers were shifted around working 6 Control, so primarily, if you work the Control 7 Center as a counts and assignments officer, you 8 had access to printing out an E-1. All the 9 Lieutenants have access, R&D had access, but we 10 don't have access to that no more. 11 MR. : But at that point, did you 12 guys have access? 13 MS. : Yeah, because you have to 14 prepare this for the count, so yeah. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : But we don't have access 17 anymore. 18 MR. : So Control Officers, 19 Lieutenants, anyone else? 20 MS. : R&D. 21 MR. : And that anyone who has 22 worked in Control at that time, at least they 23 maintained the access for a certain amount of 24 period afterwards? 25 MS. : Yeah, Uh-huh. EFTA00114990

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 MR. : Do you know how long that 2 period of time was at that point? 3 MS. : I don't think - I think if 4 you had access to it, you just had access to 5 it. It don't think it was no -. 6 MR. : So, given access once, 7 you got it until -- 8 MS. Uh-huh. 9 MR. : -- they revoke it. 10 MS. : Right. Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : I don't think it was - yeah, 13 it was no time frame that I know of. 14 MR. : You have any other questions 15 on that? When you were in - are you aware 16 there were cameras inside the MCC on August 9th 17 and 10th? 18 MS. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : When you were in Control, did 20 you have access to see the cameras? 21 MS. : Yeah, you - the cameras in 22 the - it's like little TV screens with little 23 individual boxes of different areas of the 24 institution. 25 MR. : Could you see the SHU in EFTA00114991

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 there? 2 MS. : No. You could only see over 3 a balcony looking down to the MP and it was 4 like far off so it's like the camera is up on a 5 balcony and just looking all the way down over 6 there. You don't really - can't really see 7 nothing. 8 MR. : Was it clear? 9 MS. : No. It's like, if you see, 10 you might have seen a body move here and there, 11 but you can't really tell - you couldn't really 12 - it wasn't clear, no. 13 MR. : Did you ever hear that the 14 cameras are not working, offline or not 15 recording? 16 MS. : All the time. 17 MR. : And was there complaints 18 filed - told to anybody specific? The Captain, 19 Lieutenant? 20 MS. : I believe notifications were 21 made, like especially if we're in the Control 22 Center, we would call the com tech and say, 23 "Hey, this camera might have went out." So 24 yeah, notifications were made. 25 MR. : And did they fix it EFTA00114992

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 immediately? 2 MS. : At that time, no, things 3 weren't getting fixed immediately, no. 4 MR. : Do you recall seeing Michael 5 Thomas (Indiscernible *02:00:56) on the camera 6 on the night - on the morning watch of August 7 10th? 8 MS. : You can't see really from the 9 camera that I had access to, you can't really 10 see - you can't - you barely could see because 11 it's like, I don't know if you've ever been in 12 our SHU. Have you ever been in the SHU? 13 MR. : That's -. 14 MR. : No, we have pictures but 15 we've never -- 16 MR. : That's this picture. 17 MR. actually been there. 18 MS. : So, you can't really see. 19 MR. : I'm showing you a picture. 20 MS. : This is -. 21 MR. : Is this the view? 22 MS. : Yeah, that's exactly, yeah, 23 this is it. So like, if they were in a black 24 hoodie or something, you can't see nobody over 25 there. If their back is turned and the chairs EFTA00114993

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 are - you can't really see. You might see a 2 body walk across or you might see a body walk 3 down, but you can't really see. It's not - 4 real good copy. But yeah, that's exactly what 5 I'm talking about. 6 MR. : Do you have anything else on 7 the cameras? 8 MR. : No, just when you're in 9 the Control Center, does it - is there any 10 indication saying that if a camera is working 11 but not recording? No. There's no way for you 12 to know if a camera is recording or not? 13 MS. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Just if it was actually 15 live or not. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. You would just know 17 that the camera is up. You don't know - I 18 wouldn't have been able to tell you that, I 19 don't know. Huh-uh. 20 MR. : Okay. And did you, prior 21 to 6:33, when a body alarm was set off, did you 22 notice anything unusual happening in the 23 institution on any cameras? Specifically, I 24 guess the SHU one that you couldn't see that 25 well anyway? EFTA00114994

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MS. : No. 2 MR. : No. Okay. 3 MS. : Huh-uh. 4 MR. : There was no other angles 5 from the SHU you could see? 6 MS. : No. This is all I - that's 7 all you could see. 8 MR. : Anything else on that? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : Now just a few other 11 questions. 12 MS. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : Do you recall anyone going 14 into the SHU that night, on August 10th? 15 MS. : August 10th, that's the 16 Saturday? 17 MR. : That's Saturday, overnight. 18 MR. : The morning that Epstein 19 was found dead. 20 MS. : Going in? The morning he was 21 found or -- 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MS. : -- or the night prior to him 24 being found? 25 MR. : Both is fine. EFTA00114995

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 MS. : Well, I know the Lieutenant 2 made rounds. 3 MR. : Lieutenant who? 4 MS. -: , she made rounds 5 because they have to call the door, so we have 6 to pop her in. 7 MR. : So when he says "night," 8 he's talking about midnight to 6:30 -- 9 MS. : Right. Yeah. 10 MR. : -- right. 11 MS. : So, Lieutenant, she made 12 rounds on the unit because the SHU staff called 13 the door for her to pop - for us to pop her 14 into the SHU and when they call the door, when 15 you hit that door, a visual of the door, who 16 standing in front of the door pops up in the 17 Control Center, so you know who is going into 18 the SHU. During the body alarm, our usual 19 staff just responds to a body alarm, so, you 20 know they say, "Hey, we have a medical 21 emergency in SHU," or wherever they call. You 22 got the SHU crew calling the door so staff can 23 run in and assist, so, whoever ran in, I 24 couldn't tell you. But whoever was on shift at 25 that time, responded. EFTA00114996

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 MR. : So the only one overnight 2 would be at that - before his body was found 3 would be Lieutenant 4 MS. : Lieutenant 5 internal. If he had -. 6 MR. : Who is internal? 7 MS. -: 8 MR. : Do you recall 9 requesting to go into the SHU? 10 MS. : He would - he don't really 11 he wouldn't really have a reason to go into 12 SHU, not unless they're calling for you to come 13 in and do something or he's going in, you know, 14 because normally, the two officers will count, 15 they'll put their count slip on the door and 16 the internal officer, he'll pick up the count 17 slip on his rounds while he's counting the 18 other units. So, if he doesn't have a reason 19 to go in the SHU, he won't go in SHU. 20 MR. : Okay. Do you know if there's 21 any other way that anyone can get through that 22 outer door of the SHU without Control buzzing 23 them in? 24 MS. : No. 25 MR. : Is the -. EFTA00114997

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MS. : You would need an emergency 2 key that you would have to get from the Control 3 Center. But no one gets those keys. And 4 especially on morning watch when there's no 5 need for us to give out those keys. Staff are 6 calling the door, so, no, there's no other way 7 to get in that unit. 8 MR. : Are those keys kept open or 9 is it just it's locked up? 10 MS. : It's behind a door in the 11 bathroom in the Control Center. 12 MR. : And that would get you 13 through the first door. Do you know if there's 14 a second set of keys for the internal door for 15 the SHU kept in the Control Center? 16 MS. : We have keys for most of the 17 doors, yes. But those door - the inner door, 18 the Unit Officer would have, the inner door, he 19 has access to that. So the Unit Officers have 20 those keys. 21 MR. : We're just asking just to 22 clarify, if - do you know if anyone checked out 23 the keys for the inner door or the outer door 24 out of the Control Center that night? 25 MS. : The outer door, those keys EFTA00114998

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 never get checked out, but the inner door, that 2 key is a key pretty much like a - you have to 3 put a chit on the Control Center and -. 4 MR. : Put a what? 5 MS. : A chit. 6 MR. : What's that? 7 MS. : So it's like a chit system. 8 I have a pair of keys. In order for me to get 9 these keys from Control, I have to turn in a 10 chit -- 11 MR. : So it's basically 12 MS. : -- with my name. Yeah, you 13 have to turn in a chit. So it's -. 14 MR. : A key chain with your name on 15 it. 16 MS. : Yeah, it's a chit. Uh-huh. 17 And you - it's like a - what is it, what would 18 you call it? Accountability. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : So, you put the chit on it, 21 you give the person a key. In order to get the 22 chit back, you got to give them the key back, 23 then you get the chit back. 24 MR. : Do you recall if anyone did 25 that for the SHU keys that night? EFTA00114999

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 MS. : I don't recall. But I don't 2 recall that, no. 3 MR. : Okay. I've got nothing else. 4 Do you - is there any questions that you think 5 that we didn't ask you about that you feel that 6 we should ask you about? 7 MS. : Hm. 8 MR. : In regards to this Epstein 9 investigation? 10 MS. Mm, no, I think that's -. 11 MR. : Do you believe Epstein 12 took his own life? 13 MS. : I believe so. 14 MR. : Do you have any reason to 15 believe that anyone took Epstein's life aside 16 from himself? 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : Do you have any knowledge 19 of anyone assisting Epstein with taking his 20 life? 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : No. I believe he had a lot 24 on his plate and this environment was a culture 25 shock to him then. I think that he took his EFTA00115000

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 own life. 2 MR. : Now the fact that we 3 don't have camera from that tier - oh, I wanted 4 to circle back with you. So our understanding 5 from the camera technicians and everyone else 6 is that there were actually at that time 7 cameras down each range, they just weren't 8 recording. 9 MS. : Oh. 10 MR. : Do you know anything 11 about that? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : Do you know - do you have 14 any reason to believe that someone knocked 15 those cameras off line intentionally so that 16 they stopped recording? 17 MS. : No. No. I don't believe 18 that. No. No. 19 MR. : All right. And you don't 20 know anything about that? 21 MS. : No. No. That's a good one. 22 MR. : Well, it's just there's a 23 lot of coincidences in this one. 24 MS. : Yeah. It's unfortunate. You 25 know, this building is still deteriorating as EFTA00115001

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 we speak, so, it just - a lot of repairs and 2 maintenance that needs to be done1 in this 3 institution. It's - yeah. Yeah. 4 MR. : That's all. 5 MR. : That's it? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Well, thank you for taking 8 the time to talk to us. 9 MS. : You're welcome. You're 10 welcome. 11 MR. : This is Special Agent 12 The time is 6:12 p.m. on Thursday, 13 July 15, 2021. We're ending the interview and 14 turning off the recorder. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115002

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 EFTA00115003

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00115004