462 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072 BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G. CASSELL, Plaintiffs, vs. ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ, Defendant. VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ VOLUME 4 Pages 462 through 647 Tuesday, January 12, 2016 1:05 p.m. - 4:45 p.m. Stenographically Reported By: Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR Realtime Systems Administrator www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615583

463 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 4 5 SEARCY, DENNEY, SCAROLA BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A. 6 7 8 On behalf of Defendant: 9 COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A. Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400 10 I II. P IRIR 11 12 : , . (Via phone) il 13 --an -- 14 SWEDER & ROSS, LLP 15 BY: KENNETH A. SWEDER, ESQ. 16 17 --and-- 18 WILEY, REIN 19 BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQ. 20 21 22 23 24 25 www.piiiiiiiiiiiiir.com EFTA00615584

464 1 APPEARANCES (Continued): 2 3 On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein: 4 5 Sligi BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone) 6 7 On behalf of 8 BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP 9 BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ. 10 11 12 ALSO PRESENT: 13 Edward J. Pozzuoli, Special Master 14 Sean D. Reyes, Utah Attorney General Office 15 Travis Gallagher, Videographer 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615585

465 1 INDEX 2 3 Examination Page 4 5 VOLUME 4 (Pages 462 - 647) 6 7 Certificate of Oath 645 Certificate of Reporter 646 8 Read and Sign Letter to Witness 647 Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 648 9 10 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS 11 12 No. Page 13 19 Proposed Joint Letter to the Special 501 Master 14 20 Document reflecting entry for Bands, 548 15 Doug 16 21 562 17 18 22 Letter dated Jul 6 2007 from Gerald 612 B. Lefcourt to First 19 Assistant U.S. torney an o hers 22 pages 20 23 Document titled NewsRoom/Alan 623 21 Dershowitz to talk in Alburquerque 22 24 628 23 24 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615586

466 1 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record. 2 The time is approximately 1:05 p.m. 3 MR. INDYKE: This is Darren Indyke. If it 4 would be okay with everyone, I would like to 5 clarify a couple of points for the record. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead. 7 MR. INDYKE: First, I apologize for the 8 spotty reception during the morning session. I 9 was having difficulty hearing you folks, and I 10 think you were having some difficulty hearing 11 me. I think I've corrected it, but if I could 12 ask if you could move the mic closer to him 13 somehow or if I let you know that I can't hear, 14 if somebody could just speak up. 15 MR. SCAROLA: Did we turn that speaker 16 volume up? 17 MR. SIMPSON: Let's turn up the volume. 18 MR. INDYKE: Secondly, as to the argument 19 that work product belongs to the attorney and 20 not the client, I want to make sure that it's 21 clear that we disagree with that vehemently. 22 We believe that it is a client's every bit 23 as much as an attorney's and an attorney has no 24 right to waive that privilege over the 25 objection of a client. If that were true, www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615587

467 1 there would be nothing improper with an 2 attorney publishing his entire case file over 3 the objection of his client with the exception 4 of communications back and forth between 5 attorney and client. Strategies, witnesses, 6 things like that could be disclosed over the 7 objection of a client, and that's just not the 8 case. 9 So for the record, Mr. Epstein reasserts 10 the work product privilege and would continue 11 do so. And I would instruct Mr. Dershowitz not 12 provide any response to any question that would 13 require Mr. Dershowitz to invade that 14 privilege. 15 Third, I guess as to the joint defense 16 agreement, it is our position that any party to 17 the joint defense agreement may assert it, and 18 it doesn't require disclosure of all parties to 19 the agreement in order for the assertion to be 20 valid. 21 I would note that disclosure of the 22 parties to a joint defense agreement are often, 23 by the terms of a joint defense agreement, 24 subject to confidentiality and, thus, protected 25 by the privilege. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615588

468 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 And I would also point out that it's not necessary for a person to be a party to a joint defense agreement for the communications with that person by a lawyer who is making those communications on behalf of the client party to the agreement to be subject to the joint defense agreement. And while we need to do some more background research to get the full details of the joint defense agreement, I would -- for those reasons, to the extent that any disclosure in response to any questions posed to Mr. Dershowitz would require Mr. Dershowitz to invade that joint defense agreement, we would instruct -- we would object and instruct that Mr. Dershowitz not respond. I think covers everything that I have. SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's proceed. MR. SCAROLA: Before we Thank you. proceed, I that want to note for the record that the various transcripts of statements made by Mr. Dershowitz that had been requested during the earlier session of the deposition were marked as Exhibit Number 1 to the prior www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615589

469 1 sessions of Mr. Dershowitz's deposition. 2 I believe that everything that was 3 referenced has been disclosed. To the extent 4 that opposing counsel identifies anything that 5 is not included in Composite Exhibit Number 1 6 previously marked, we would be happy to provide 7 a copy of that as soon as a copy -- 8 MR. INDYKE: Is that Mr. Scarola? 9 MR. SCAROLA: It is, yes. 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on. Speak 11 up a little bit, Jack. 12 MR. SCAROLA: Certainly. As soon as a 13 copy that does not include work product 14 notations is available, and the portions of 15 statements made by Mr. Dershowitz not included 16 in Exhibit Number 1 are identified to us, we 17 will provide those. 18 MR. SCOTT: I think what we most want, 19 Jack, are the -- I think we have one 20 transcript, but I think there's another 21 transcript of the bench and Bar that we need. 22 MR. SCAROLA: There are multiple 23 transcripts included in Exhibit Number 1. 24 MR. EDWARDS: If there are transcripts 25 that you need that are not included in Exhibit www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615590

470 1 Number 1, tell me. I'll get them to you, and 2 I'll get them to you tomorrow since we're here 3 again. 4 MR. SCAROLA: I just want the record to 5 reflect that I believe that everything that 6 we've made reference to is included in Exhibit 7 Number 1. If I'm incorrect in that regard, you 8 let us know what it is, we'll give it to you. 9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Darren, anything 10 on your end? You okay? 11 MR. INDYKE: Yep. 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I would welcome 13 the parties just to get together to make sure 14 they have a complete set of what they need, and 15 we'll go from there. 16 MR. EDWARDS: Absolutely. Just for the 17 record, my only real objection was not turning 18 over what I had marked and my work product. 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I understood. 20 MR. EDWARDS: I'll get everything to him 21 tomorrow. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I took it that 23 way. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. Going back to testing the credibility of www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615591

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472 1 A. I imagine there would be if there were 2 videotapes. I've always said from the beginning, I 3 hope there are videotapes of every moment in 4 life, because they would exculpate 5 me completely. So I hope there are videotapes. 6 Q. Aren't you aware that there were 7 videotapes that were taken within your client 8 Jeffrey Epstein's various homes? 9 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Work product, 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. Well, the statement was -- which I was not 17 going there. The statement was, if there are 18 videos, I want them all out there? 19 A. Absolutely. 20 Q. So, isn't it true that you know that there 21 were indeed videos taken from within your client's 22 various homes? 23 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. Privileged or nonprivileged. attorney-client. Common interest. SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Carve out the privileged issue and non-privileged, if he gained information through a nonprivileged source. BY MR. EDWARDS: www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615593

473 1 MR. SCOTT: Asked and answered in the last 2 depo. 3 A. I hope there were videos. I hope there 4 are videos of every moment of ' life 5 from the time she allegedly met Jeffrey Epstein to 6 the time she left. I hope there were videos in 7 every bedroom. I hope there were videos in every 8 massage room. I hope there are videos all over. 9 And from day one, I categorically stated 10 that there could be no photograph, no video that 11 would demonstrate that what she said was true, 12 because I knew it was false. She knew it was false. 13 And you knew it was false. 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 Q. In representing a client, don't you try to 16 determine or ascertain what evidence does exist that 17 may incriminate or exonerate any particular client? 18 A. Of course. 19 Q. Okay. In making that inquiry in this 20 case, haven't you learned that there are -- 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Which case? 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. In the case in which you represented 24 Jeffrey Epstein, haven't you learned that there were 25 video recordings taken from within Jeffrey Epstein's www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615594

474 1 various homes as well as his airplane? 2 MR. INDYKE: Objection, same objection. 3 Instruct him not to answer. 4 A. I hope there were. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. Will you then assist us 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- in obtaining those videos from your 9 client? 10 A. I will assist you in getting any possible 11 videotapes of r any of the 12 13 made. I would be thrilled to have videos of every 14 moment of my life during that period of time, and 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Mr. Epstein is not waiving any of his 22 objections as to any such information to the 23 extent that it exists. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. Okay. Well, this video or photograph -- locations where the false accusation against me was every moment of her life. Because they would prove conclusively that which I know to be conclusively false, namely that she made up the stories about me. Q. Okay. Just so I understand your agreement, is that -- MR. INDYKE: Just so we're clear, www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615595

475 1 if there are videos or photographs of that have been taken or recorded from 3 Jeffrey Epstein's home, is that -- is that evidence 4 that you will assist us in obtaining? 5 A. I will try my best to try to get every 6 possible 7 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 8 A. -- photograph -- I'm entitled to say what 9 I'll try to best to do. I will try my best to get 10 every possible video, photograph, and any other 11 piece of objective evidence because I know it will 12 all completely prove beyond any doubt that I wasn't 13 there. 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 Q. And if that information has already 16 exchanged hands -- that evidence has already 17 exchanged hands from Jeffrey Epstein's hands to the 18 hands of his attorneys, as part of their work 19 product, would you agree to waive your work product 20 privilege to produce that evidence? 21 MR. SCOTT: Objection. 22 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 23 A. I don't have any such evidence. I wish I 24 did. 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615596

476 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. With respect to the search warrant that 3 was executed on Jeffrey Epstein's house, isn't it 4 true that just before that search warrant was 5 executed, the -- Jeffrey Epstein's legal team 6 ordered that three computers be removed from Jeffrey 7 Epstein's home that contained pornographic images, 8 including those of 9 A. I made no such order. 10 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. And instruct 11 not to answer. 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 Q. I didn't ask if you made the order. Isn't 14 it true that that occurred? 15 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. 16 MR. SIMPSON: Darren? 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm not so sure 18 you can waive that objection. 19 A. I wish I could. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Didn't the U.S. Attorney's Office issue 22 grand jury subpoenas to the investigators that were 23 working on Jeffrey Epstein's behalf and were holding 24 those computers, and those grand jury subpoenas 25 outstanding at the time that the case resolved? www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615597

477 1 A. All I can say -- 2 MR. INDYKE: Same objection and 3 instruction. 4 A. -- is I wish every video, every computer, 5 I wish everything that would show where was had been turned over and would be turned 7 over. 8 MR. SCAROLA: Mr. Dershowitz's repeated 9 comments about what he wishes would happen are 10 an indirect statement that if he could answer 11 the questions, the responses that he would give 12 would be favorable to him and would exonerate 13 him. 14 His wishes are not the subject of the 15 inquiry. And every occasion on which he 16 expresses a wish and refuses to give an answer 17 is unresponsive to the questions that are being 18 asked, and should be stricken. 19 They also constitute a waiver to the 20 extent that they imply that if the question 21 could be answered, the answer would be 22 favorable. 23 I would ask you to instruct 24 MR. INDYKE: And to the extent that they 25 imply a waiver -- www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615598

478 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on a 2 second. Let him finish. 3 MR. INDYKE: I apologize, Mr. Scarola 4 MR. SCAROLA: That's quite all right, 5 thank you. 6 I know that over the speakerphone, it's 7 difficult, and I take no offense to the 8 interruption. I know it was inadvertent. 9 But I would ask that the witness be 10 instructed to discontinue that improper 11 assertion of statements of opinion when no 12 opinions are being requested. 13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Counsel, do you 14 have a response? I think Mr. Scarola is done. 15 MR. INDYKE: My response is to the extent 16 that you're attempting to imply anything 17 from -- imply a waiver from Mr. Dershowitz, 18 Mr. Epstein does not waive, and instructs 19 Mr. Dershowitz that he can make no such waiver. 20 THE WITNESS: I have not refused to 21 answer. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 23 second. Let me say this: I would suggest that 24 I don't take such inference that he's waiving 25 based upon his general statements. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615599

479 1 What -- we have been down a little bit of 2 this road this morning on trying to get to what 3 appears to be privileged information or 4 information that -- or activity that was 5 undertaken or not undertaken during the course 6 of the representation, the relationship the 7 attorney-client relationship between 8 Mr. Dershowitz and Mr. Epstein. 9 And at this point, based upon the 10 objection, I will uphold the objection and 11 we'll move forward. 12 MR. SCAROLA: The second part of my 13 request is that Mr. Dershowitz be instructed to 14 refrain from expressing a desire to answer 15 questions. It's not responsive. It implies 16 that if he could answer, the answers would be 17 favorable. 18 The implication is improper, and the 19 insertion into the record of the implication is 20 improper. If he can't answer the question, he 21 should simply say he cannot answer based on 22 privilege. 23 THE WITNESS: Can I respond? 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. Let me 25 respond. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615600

480 1 I think that's appropriate. I do actually 2 agree with Mr. Scarola in this respect. I do 3 think that you should be responsive 4 specifically to the question if you can. 5 Where you can't, you state you can't. I 6 believe that the record is now full of your 7 views on some of this in a generic way, and so 8 with that said, I would ask that you be more 9 pointed with your answers. 10 THE WITNESS: I appreciate that. I just 11 want to comment that I did not ever refuse to 12 answer any of those questions. It was 13 instructed not to answer any of those 14 questions. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I do understand 16 that. For purposes of some efficiency here, I 17 would like to get through this within the time 18 alloted. 19 MR. EDWARDS: Me, too. Thank you. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Is there any nonprivileged information 22 which would demonstrate whether 23 statement that she was flown on Jeffrey Epstein's 24 plane while underage was true or false? 25 A. I'm sure there must be, but I don't have www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615601

481 1 it in my mind right now, so I can't answer that 2 question. 3 Q. The flight logs were previously marked 4 as -- 5 MR. SCAROLA: Exhibit 7. 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7 Q. -- as Exhibit 7 to the deposition. I'll 8 show you pages from Exhibit 7 which indicate the 9 dates of the flight logs for those on the phone 10 November 2002 through January -- sorry, 11 November 2000 through January 2001 and January 2001 12 through February 20th, 2001. 13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Counsel? 14 MR. SCOTT: Okay. 15 A. Yes, I see the flights that you have 16 marked in green. 17 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 Q. Do the flight logs indicate II~sa passenger on Jeffrey Epstein's plane 20 with Jeffrey Epstein? 21 A. Well, the first one I look at does not. 22 It has and Although it's 23 underlined, it doesn't suggest 24 The second one does say ■ . And the fourth and fifth ones say www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615602

482 1 . And on the next page, two of them say 2 , yes. 3 Q. These in the year 2000 and early 2001; is 4 that correct? 5 A. I can't see dates. I see 2001. I see 6 November 2000. Could you remind me of ' birthday. 8 Q. 9 A. So she would be I at this 10 time. 11 Q. So she's traveling as a passenger under 12 the age of 18? That's my question. 13 A. Under the age of 18, but the age of 14 consent in numerous places that she flew to were 17 15 and 16. So New York, the age is 17, to my 16 recollection. And in New Mexico, I think it's 17. 17 And the Virgin Islands, I think it's 16. So the 18 answer to the question is she underage might well be 19 no. 20 Q. My question was, is there nonprivileged 21 information that would indicate the truth or falsity 22 of her statement that she traveled on Jeffrey 23 Epstein's airplane with Jeffrey Epstein while under 24 the age of 18? 25 A. I do not know of any statement that she www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615603

483 1 said -- may have said it, but I don't have in my 2 mind any statement that says below the age of 18 as 3 distinguished from when she was underage. So you 4 would have to show me. If the statement was below 5 the age of 18, that would be correct. If the 6 statement would be underage, that would be more 7 questionable. 8 Q. Do you know the purpose for which she was 9 traveling with Jeffrey Epstein during the flights 10 indicated on those logs? 11 A. I do not. 12 MR. SCOTT: Privileged. 13 MR. INDYKE: Objection, work product, 14 attorney-client, common interest. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. Your answer is "I do not"? 17 A. I do not. 18 Q. You have not ascertained from any source, 19 is what you're telling us, the purpose for her 20 travels with Jeffrey Epstein, correct? 21 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection 22 and instruction. 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 Q. You are unable to answer, or you have not? 25 A. I have been instructed not to answer. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615604

484 1 Q. I misunderstood you. I thought you said 2 earlier "I have not," indicating that you don't know 3 the purpose? 4 A. I said that in answer to one question. 5 You've asked me other questions. 6 Q. Is there a legitimate purpose for her 7 being 17 years old, traveling with Jeffrey Epstein? 8 MR. SCOTT: Objection, argumentative. 9 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection, 10 same instructions. 11 BY MR. EDWARDS: 12 Q. Isn't it a federal crime to knowingly 13 transport an individual who has not attained the age 14 of 18 years in interstate commerce with the intent 15 that that individual engage in prostitution or in 16 any sexual activity? 17 A. I haven't read the statute clearly, but I 18 think that's an accurate paraphrase of my 19 understanding of the law, yeah. 20 Q. Would you agree that that flight log in 21 front of you indicates a federal crime was being 22 committed against at the time when 23 she has said a federal crime was being committed 24 against her? 25 A. Oh, absolutely not. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615605

485 1 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 2 A. Does not prove a federal crime. 3 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 4 instruction. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. So that goes back to my last question. 7 What is, then, the legitimate reason that causes 8 that flight to fall outside of this criminal statute 9 that I just read to you? 10 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 11 instruction. 12 A. I can give this answer. My understanding 13 of federal law imposes the burden of proof on the 14 prosecution to demonstrate one of the illicit 15 purposes, and this does not satisfy that burden of 16 proof. So this would not prove that a federal crime 17 occurred. It would prove one element of that crime. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615606

486 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move forward. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. Let me try to understand that which you 24 are explaining right now, which is are you saying 25 that if she was traveling on Jeffrey Epstein's www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615607

487 1 airplane while underage for the purposes of sex and 2 or prostitution, that -- 3 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 4 instructions. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. -- she was not being sexually trafficked 7 or would not be a victim of that statute? 8 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 9 instruction. 10 MR. EDWARDS: I'm asking a hypothetical 11 now based on his last statement. 12 MR. SCOTT: That's not a hypothetical. 13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's not how 14 you framed it. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. Let me reframe it, then. 17 Assuming that -- I'll give you a 18 hypothetical based on what you say her friends have 19 told you, which is that she is free to leave while 20 being taken across state lines by Jeffrey Epstein. 21 This is the hypothetical. And being used for sexual 22 purposes. Is she, in that hypothetical, not a 23 victim to sexual trafficking? 24 MR. SCOTT: Objection to form, 25 speculation, argumentative. Can you answer www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615608

488 1 that? 2 A. I can answer it. Since you gave me a 3 hypothetical, as a law professor for 50 years, I 4 would give this as a hypothetical to my class. I 5 would ask my students do you think it's trafficking, 6 do you think a woman has been trafficked when she 7 voluntarily, below the age of consent in some 8 states, above the age of consent in other states, 9 when she voluntarily engages in sexual conduct for 10 money, free to leave at any time. 11 I think it would be an interesting 12 classroom discussion about whether that constitutes 13 trafficking. 14 That's a different question from whether 15 or not that would violate the statute. That would 16 violate the statute. But your question is, would it 17 constitute trafficking. That would be a very 18 interesting law school hypothetical. 19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 Q. In your opinion, does it constitute 21 trafficking? 22 A. I think the word "trafficking" is 23 overused, and I think should be reserved for the 24 kinds of people who I have enormous sympathy for, 25 people who have no choice, no options, whose www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615609

489 1 passports have been taken away, who have been forced 2 and coerced in some way to engage in sexual conduct. 3 And I think it begins to weaken the very 4 important term "trafficking" when it's applied to a 5 volunteer, close to her 18th birthday who was 6 enjoying and spending money and has the option of 7 leaving. I know that Sigrid McCawley is shaking her 8 head, but that's my honest opinion. 9 Q. Does your answer to the hypothetical 10 change if we rewind time 11 when she's 15 or 12 16 years old? Meaning are you making a distinction 13 because she's 17 as opposed to 16 or 15? If so, 14 what's the cutoff? 15 A. Well, I think that age is relevant 16 MR. INDYKE: For my clarification, this is 17 all hypothetical? 18 MR. SCAROLA: Yes, it is. 19 A. Age is one of the relevant factors. It's 20 not the only relevant factor. It's one of the 21 relevant factors. That's why your hypothetical was 22 17, almost 18, 17 and a half. 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 Q. Let's get that right. That's when, 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615610

490 1 A. We're talking about 2 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: We're still 3 operating under the hypothetical? 4 MR. EDWARDS: We are. I thought he said 5 that my hypothetical was almost 18. Which in 6 this hypothetical, she turns 7 8 THE WITNESS: =, the same year. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. Was she lying when she said that 11 Epstein -- 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Are we now done 13 with the hypothetical? 14 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, we are. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. engaged in sex with many underage 17 girls? Was she lying when she said that? 18 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 19 instructions. 20 A. I can only say this. You -- 21 MR. SIMPSON: Was there an instruction? 22 A. There was an instruction, but I can answer 23 without that. 24 You have accused me of having sex with 25 many underage girls -- www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615611

491 1 MR. EDWARDS: I move to strike this as 2 nonresponsive to my question. 3 A. -- based on no evidence whatsoever. 4 MR. EDWARDS: I want a ruling on the 5 Motion to Strike. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me hear the 7 rest of it. 8 A. So when you say "many," I need to know 9 with some precision what you have in mind. 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll strike the 11 first part of it, the first part of his answer. 12 And if you can assist him in defining "many." 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Sure. You do know Bob Josefsberg, 15 correct? 16 A. I've known him since 1959. 17 Q. And you are aware that he represented, I 18 believe, more than 15 girls who claimed to have been 19 victims of Mr. Epstein in this case, aren't you? 20 A. I recommended him for that job because I 21 think so highly of him. 22 Q. And in his Complaints, are you aware that 23 he's made the allegation that Defendant Epstein has 24 a sexual preference for underage minor girls? Are 25 you aware of that? www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615612

492 1 MR. SCOTT: Just for the record, object to 2 the relevancy of all of this. 3 A. I'm not aware of that. 4 MR. INDYKE: Just for the record, to the 5 extent that Alan's answer requires him to 6 invade privilege, I would object and instruct 7 him not to answer. 8 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Within the 9 confines of the privilege objection, if you can 10 answer. 11 A. I'm not aware that he said that. I 12 haven't read his pleadings. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Okay. Are you aware that in his 15 pleadings, he wrote "Defendant Epstein used his 16 resources and his influence over vulnerable minor 17 girls to engage in a systemic -- systematic pattern 18 of sexually exploited behavior"? 19 A. I'm not aware. 20 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 21 instruction. 22 A. I was not involved in that aspect of the 23 case. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. You were not involved in the facts part of www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615613

493 1 the case? 2 A. I was not involved in the compensation 3 part of the case. The part that Bob Josefsberg was 4 involved in, I was not involved in. 5 MR. INDYKE: Alan, just admonishment, 6 let's not go into the subject matter of your 7 representation, please. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 20 22 23 24 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615614

494 1 question. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. In 2009, when that Complaint and that 4 allegation was asserted, are you aware that Jeffrey 5 Epstein never refuted that allegation in any 6 pleading? 7 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 8 instruction. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. Were you representing Jeffrey Epstein in 11 2009? 12 A. Not in connection with that case. And I 13 was not aware of what his response was, if any. 14 Q. Are you aware that after that allegation 15 was made by , that Jeffrey Epstein 16 paid money to settle her case? 17 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 18 instruction. 19 MR. SCOTT: Let me object to all the 20 relevancy of this. 21 A. My understanding is that the plea bargain 22 required him to make payments regardless of what his 23 views may have been, that he was absolutely required 24 to make those payments. He had no discretion. 25 That's my understanding. I may be wrong, but you www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615615

495 1 can check the actual nonprosecution agreement, but 2 that's my understanding of what it said, that he 3 could not contest anything. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. You were one of the attorneys that 6 represented Jeffrey Epstein in the negotiations with 7 the United States Attorney's Office, right? 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Right, along with MR. INDYKE: Same A. No, I don't think Kenneth Starr -- objection. Objection. you can object to that. These are people who are at the hearings, at the events with the U.S. Attorney. The people who were at the events representing Jeffrey Epstein is not privileged, included Roy Black, Ken Starr, Marty Weinberg, Jay Lefkowitz -- MR. SCAROLA: Not responsive. A. -- Jerry Lefcourt. BY MR. EDWARDS: Q. lawyers. A. I was one of them, yes. Q. I only asked if you were one of the The answer is yes? A. The complete answer is yes, but the rest of the people were part of the legal team. Q. I will ask you when I want somebody else's www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615616

496 1 name. 2 Were you a part of the negotiations in 3 October of 2007 when the special matter was 4 selected? You remember that part? 5 A. Is the special master Josephsburg? 6 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 7 instruction. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. My recollection is that I was simply asked 11 for a recommendation, but I played no further role. 12 Q. Were you aware that there was a joint 13 letter to the special master created between Jeffrey 14 Epstein's attorneys and the United States Attorney's 15 Office describing the investigation? 16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 17 instruction. 18 A. I'm not -- as I sit here today, I have no 19 recollection of that. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Was lying when she says 22 that while underage, she was made to massage Jeffrey 23 Epstein in the nude, while he masturbated? 24 A. I have no idea. 25 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615617

497 1 instruction. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. If I show you the proposed joint letter to 4 the special master, will it refresh your 5 recollection? 6 A. I want to add to the last question When 7 I say I have no idea, 8 9 10 11 MR. EDWARDS: Move to strike as 12 nonresponsive. 13 A. But that's relevant to standing naked and 14 being masturbated. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move on to your 16 next question. 17 A. Yes. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. When I am asking for nonprivileged 20 information or evidence that would give you the 21 ability to tell me whether is lying 22 when she says she had sex with Jeffrey Epstein while 23 underage, would you consider a joint letter crafted 24 between Jeffrey Epstein's lawyers and the United 25 States Attorney's Office to form the basis of that www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615618

498 1 answer? Let me rephrase the question. 2 When I'm asking for nonprivileged 3 information that you may have to demonstrate the 4 truth or falsity of ' statement that 5 she was made to have sex with Jeffrey Epstein while 6 underage, would you consider the joint letter to the 7 special master evidence from which you could draw an 8 answer? 9 MR. SCOTT: Objection. 10 A. I would have to know more about it than 11 that. I would have to know the nature of the 12 letter, the reason it was sent. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Would you like to review the letter? Is 15 that going to help you? 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask him if he's 17 seen the letter first. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. You were part of the team that was mainly 20 negotiating with U.S. Attorney's Office, correct? 21 A. I was only negotiating the criminal part 22 of the case. 23 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you the letter, 24 and if you had nothing to do with it, tell me that. 25 If you've never seen it before, then tell me that. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615619

499 1 I guess my first question is, have you 2 seen it? 3 MR. INDYKE: I would object to that. 4 MR. SCOTT: I would like to make a request 5 for this depo and future depositions, if they 6 are going to show exhibits to a witness, I 7 think we should be -- have a copy of them. 8 We provided copies to you of all exhibits 9 we used during the deposition of your client. 10 And I think if you're going to pull out 11 exhibits and have one, you should have at least 12 copies for counsel, and I would agree to do the 13 same thing, rather than having to run and make 14 a copy and all the rest of it. 15 MR. EDWARDS: I wasn't ready for him to be 16 unfamiliar with his and his legal team's 17 correspondence. 18 MR. SCOTT: I understand, but you haven't 19 had any all day. So all I'm asking you, 20 Mr. Edwards, is that we have copies of exhibits 21 that you intend to confront the witness with. 22 That's -- as you pointed out, you've got all 23 the questions laid out, so you know where we're 24 headed. There's a note on here. Do you want 25 that on there? www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615620

500 1 MR. EDWARDS: No. 2 MR. SCOTT: It's one of your cheat sheet 3 notes. I don't know if you really want that on 4 there. 5 MR. EDWARDS: It just says "Isn't this 6 nonprivileged?" 7 MR. SCOTT: Okay. It's still an exhibit 8 going into evidence, right? Without your 9 notes? 10 MR. SIMPSON: Can we get it marked? 11 THE WITNESS: This is a draft, not a 12 letter. 13 MR. EDWARDS: I said it's a proposed 14 letter. I read the title exactly. 15 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff Exhibit 16 19.) 17 A. This is not -- it's not familiar to me 18 except that what I said previously that as part of 19 the resolution of this case, Mr. Epstein agreed he 20 would not contest jurisdiction for the victims who 21 chose to sue him, et cetera, is consistent with my 22 memory, but I have no recollection of actually 23 seeing this draft, this proposed draft. 24 MR. SCOTT: That's number? 25 COURT REPORTER: Nineteen. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615621

501 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. Wouldn't you agree wasn't one of the listed victims to the 4 nonprosecution agreement? 5 A. If so, I was not aware of. 6 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 7 instruction. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. As you sit here today, after having made 10 many statements about being a 11 serial liar -- 12 A. She is. 13 Q. -- you have no idea whether she was a 14 listed victim to the nonprosecution agreement? 15 MR. SCOTT: Objection, asked and answered. 16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 17 instruction. 18 A. Right now, I have no recollection of 19 whether she was listed or not. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. I know that the FBI tried to speak to her 23 and she wouldn't speak to them is my recollection. 24 MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive. 25 MR. EDWARDS: Not responsive. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615622

502 1 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike. 2 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That, I will 3 strike. Move forward. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. Was lying when she says that 6 Jeffrey Epstein also had sex with a girl named 8 9 MR. INDYKE: Same objections, same 10 instruction. 11 MR. SCOTT: Can you answer that? 12 A. I've never heard that name. It's not 13 familiar to me at all. 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 Q. Was lying when she says 16 she traveled to Jeffrey Epstein's island when 17 underage? 18 MR. INDYKE: Same objections, same 19 instruction. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. By "underage," I mean under the age of 18. 22 A. I can only tell you I never saw her on the 23 island. I was on the island when she was not there. 24 I would love to know whole story she was 25 on the island -- www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615623

503 1 MR. SCOTT: There's no question pending. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. The two-page flight log exhibit, if we 4 look at January 22nd, 2001, and also 5 December 14th, 2000, can you look at those, and 6 I'll ask a question. 7 A. Sure. Give me the dates again. 8 January 16? 9 Q. Where it has the departing airport code 10 and 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. -- where she's landing. 13 A. Right. 14 Q. TIST is the code for Virgin Islands, 15 correct? 16 A. I have no idea. Been to the Virgin 17 Islands once that I remember. 18 Q. You have been to Jeffrey Epstein's home on 19 the Virgin Islands, haven't you? 20 MR. SCOTT: He's already answered that. 21 A. I was with my wife and my daughter and 22 Professor 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 Q. I don't mean to ask who you went with -- I 25 didn't mean to ask -- www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615624

504 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on. Let 2 him finish his answer. I think this is 3 contextual. I'm okay with it. 4 A. And six months before 5 ever met Jeffrey Epstein. So I was never on the 6 island during the period of time that Jeffrey 7 Epstein knew 8 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. My question was, how did you get to the 11 island? 12 A. Jeffrey Epstein sent a one-engine, small 13 plane with a 70-year-old pilot for me, my wife and 14 my daughter, and I regret to this day ever getting 15 on that plane. Flew us from Guadalupe to the Virgin 16 Islands, where I was picked up by a boat and taken 17 to Jeffrey Epstein's island where we had dinner with 18 Michael Porter and his wife and family and my wife 19 and my daughter, and stayed, as far as we remember, 20 for one night and left the next day. 21 Q. How did you get to Guadalupe? 22 A. Jeffrey Epstein flew us from Charleston, 23 South Carolina, where we were visiting Caroline, my 24 wife's mother, on an airplane that had a bathroom 25 that had only a little curtain. That's all I www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615625

505 1 remember about it. 2 Q. What was the date of that trip that you're 3 describing that you took Jeffrey Epstein's island? 4 MR. SCOTT: If you know. 5 A. It was six months or eight months before 6 she ever met Jeffrey Epstein, so it would be 7 Christmas, around Christmastime, around Christmas 8 vacation of the year 1998, to my recollection. But 9 I would have to check. 10 When it is she met Jeffrey Epstein in that 11 summer, it was the winter before that. That's the 12 only time I've ever been on the island, so her 13 statement that she had sex with me on the island is 14 totally, categorically made up. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. My question is, where is the flight log of 17 that trip that you just described? 18 A. Neither flight -- neither flight was on 19 Jeffrey Epstein's airplane. The flight that we went 20 from Charleston to Guadalupe, somebody owed Jeffrey 21 Epstein several hours on an airplane, so Jeffrey 22 borrowed his Learjet, it was a Learjet, borrowed his 23 Learjet, two or three hours on the Learjet because 24 it would have taken us ten hours to fly from 25 Charleston to Atlanta, Atlanta to Puerto Rico and www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615626

506 1 2 3 4 5 6 Miami, and Miami or Puerto Rico to Guadalupe. So Jeffrey offered to use the credit he had with someone else on a Learjet to fly us to Guadalupe, and then used -- then rented -- it was $1,200, I remember seeing the bill, to fly the small airplane from Guadalupe. He was anxious for us to 7 see his newly bought -- relatively newly bought 8 island, and so we went there with my daughter and we 9 dug around in the sand and we had dinner with the 10 various professors and that. Then we left. 11 Q. So there are no flight manifests -- 12 A. I have no idea. 13 Q. -- for the trip that you just described? 14 A. I have no idea. There probably are, 15 probably on the Learjet is probably the manifest. 16 Q. In fact, in the statements that the flight 17 manifests will conclusively and demonstratively 18 exonerate you -- 19 A. That's true. 20 Q. -- where can we get the full flight 21 manifests so that we can review and make that 22 determination for ourselves? Do you know? 23 A. I assume -- 24 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615627

50 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. What we have here -- 3 MR. INDYKE: Attorney-client, work product 4 and common interests. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. What we have here is only the fraction of 7 flights where Dave Rogers was one of the pilots. 8 Can you help us get the flight logs from Larry 9 Visosky, Larry Morrison, any of the flight logs from 10 the helicopters, et cetera? 11 A. I would love to. It would all show that I 12 wasn't on the plane. 13 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 14 instruction. 15 A. I will do everything in my power 16 MR. SCOTT: You can make any request you 17 want to through counsel, and we'll take them 18 up. 19 A. But I will do everything in my power to 20 get you every flight manifest. 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move forward. 22 MR. INDYKE: We do not waive any 23 objection. 24 MR. SCAROLA: And that request has been 25 made. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615628

508 1 A. Is that a question? 2 MR. SCOTT: No. Just Mr. Scarola 3 MR. EDWARDS: Just that we made a request 4 for production. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. Was lying when she says that she 7 was taken to Jeffrey Epstein's home in New York 8 while underage? 9 A. I have no idea. 10 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 11 instruction. 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 Q. Was lying when she says she was 14 taken to Jeffrey Epstein's ranch in New Mexico while 15 underage? 16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 17 instruction. 18 A. I can tell you this. She's lying when she 19 said she met me at the ranch. So I cannot believe 20 anything she says about the ranch. 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 22 Q. Was she lying when she says Ghislaine 23 Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein used sex toys on her 24 when she was underage? 25 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615629

509 1 instruction. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. Was she lying when she says Jeffrey 4 Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell made her dress up in 5 outfits for them? 6 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 7 instruction. 8 A. Well, I can but I do have some material 9 outside of the record on that. 10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. I know that Sigrid McCawley said that she 13 said that Leslie Wexner made her dress up -- 14 MS. McCAWLEY: I am going to object to the 15 extent that you are trying to reveal 16 conversations that were part of a settlement 17 discussion which the judge has already sealed 18 the record on and there is a pending motion for 19 sanctions. And if you're going to start 20 revealing that information, we're going 21 directly to the Judge Lynch. 22 A. I am going to start revealing -- 23 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, I'm going to 24 stop you -- 25 THE WITNESS: Let me tell you why. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615630

510 1 Because I didn't get that from Sigrid or from 2 David Boise. I got it from Leslie Wexner's 3 lawyer in a totally nonprivileged 4 communication. 5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me stop you. 6 I don't believe it's responsive to the question 7 that's pending, so let's move forward. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. My question was, was she lying -- was 10 lying when she says Jeffrey Epstein 11 and Ghislaine Maxwell made her dress up in outfits 12 for them? 13 A. I can only say that that allegation has 14 been made regarding Leslie Wexner as well. 15 Q. It has nothing to do with my question. 16 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike. 17 A. Leslie Wexner's lawyer regards that as a 18 full statement and, therefore, I can only assume 19 that it's a false statement when made about someone 20 else. I think that's relevant. 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So with respect 22 to the -- 23 MR. EDWARDS: I'm moving to strike the 24 nonresponsive portion of that answer. 25 THE WITNESS: He opened the door. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615631

511 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I do believe it 2 was nonresponsive in its entirety. Move 3 forward. Go ahead. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. Do you know Jean-Luc Brunel? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Have you ever met him? 8 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 9 instruction. 10 A. I have no memory of ever meeting a man by 11 that name. 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 Q. Do you know what his role was in Jeffrey 14 Epstein's life? 15 A. No. 16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 17 instruction. Mr. Dershowitz, if you would let 18 me make my objections before you respond. 19 THE WITNESS: Right. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Was lying when she said 22 Jeffrey Epstein socialized with Bill Clinton during 23 the relevant time period? 24 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 25 instructions. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615632

512 1 A. My information is that 2 was lying when she said that she saw Bill Clinton on 3 Jeffrey Epstein's island. That's all I can comment 4 about with that. And she's lying about that. And 5 she's lying about how Bill Clinton got to the 6 island. 7 MR. EDWARDS: I move to strike the 8 Nonresponsive portion of the answer. 9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, it's 10 relevant to what you asked. Move forward. I'm 11 not going to strike it. 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 Q. I'm going to go back to the question until 14 I get an answer, though. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead. 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17 Q. That is, when said that 18 during the relevant time period, which we defined as 19 1999 through 2002 -- 20 A. Let's be clear. Around August of both of 21 those years, right? 22 Q. I think August of '99 through October of 23 2002. 24 A. September, I think it is. 25 Q. Okay. Was she lying -- was www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615633

513 1 lying when she said Jeffrey Epstein 2 socialized with Bill Clinton during that time 3 period? 4 A. I don't know. 5 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 6 instruction. 7 BY MR. EDWARDS: 8 Q. And you have no nonprivileged information 9 that would provide you the answer to that? 10 A. I have nonprivileged information that 11 provides me that they socialized together at some 12 point. I don't know whether it was within that 13 timeframe at all. I know they went to Africa 14 together on a mission of goodwill, but I don't know 15 the date of that. So I can't tell you whether it 16 was 17 know 18 19 20 21 immediately disprove her statement that Bill Clinton 22 and Jeffrey Epstein socialized during that time 23 period? 24 A. I don't understand that question. 25 Q. No? in the period or outside the period. You may that; I don't. Q. Well, if Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Clinton associated, but only at some time period either before or after the relevant time period, it would www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615634

514 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I don't 2 understand the question either. If you can 3 rephrase the question, that would be helpful. 4 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. If you -- do you know from nonprivileged 7 information whether Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Clinton 8 ever socialized? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you know the beginning -- when their 11 relationship began? 12 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection, 13 same instruction. 14 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Again, under 15 nonprivileged. 16 MR. EDWARDS: Under nonprivileged 17 information. 18 MR. SCOTT: Do you have any nonprivileged 19 information about that? 20 A. I remember having dinner at the home of 21 Caroline Kennedy and Ed Schlossberg with President 22 Clinton, and he basically asked me how Jeffrey was 23 doing, and led me to believe that he had some 24 relationship with Jeffrey. I don't remember whether 25 that dinner -- when that dinner was. I can probably www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615635

515 1 find out. But that would be nonprivileged. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. Was he still President at the time that 4 conversation was taking place? 5 A. I don't remember. 6 Q. Have you ever been, yourself, together 7 with Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Clinton? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have you ever talked to Jeffrey Epstein 10 about Bill Clinton? 11 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection, 12 same instruction. 13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Nonprivileged. 14 MR. EDWARDS: Yeah, nonprivileged. 15 A. It's hard to sort out the privileged and 16 the nonprivileged. 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So based upon 18 the objection, I would ask that you -- unless 19 it's obvious, then no, until we sort that out. 20 A. I shouldn't answer that probably. 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm going to 22 grant his objection at this point, again, as a 23 continuum because I want to make sure that we 24 preserve this issue for later on. 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615636

516 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. In a previous -- previously in this 3 deposition, you indicated your representation of 4 Jeffrey Epstein on this subject matter began in 5 2005, right? 6 A. It began, I think I said, when the first 7 allegations were. I don't have an exact date in 8 mind. 9 Q. The relevant time period for as we've defined, is 1999 through 2002. 11 A. That's correct, yes. 12 Q. So I'm asking if you know from Jeffrey 13 Epstein, in a time period prior to your 14 representation, whether he was socializing with Bill 15 Clinton. 16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 17 instruction. 18 A. Yes, yes. 19 MR. SCOTT: As long as it's a 20 nonprivileged situation. 21 A. He was. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. He was? 24 A. He was. 25 Q. So prior -- www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615637

517 1 A. During the whole period of time up through 2 2005, you're saying? Yes. 3 Q. Right. 4 A. Yes, I think this dinner occurred before 5 2005, so I would -- yes. 6 Q. So what did Jeffrey Epstein tell you about 7 his relationship with Bill Clinton? 8 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 9 instruction. 10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 11 Q. Prior to 2005, obviously. 12 A. That they knew each other and that they 13 were doing some charitable work together. 14 Q. Had Bill Clinton ever been to Jeffrey 15 Epstein's home? 16 A. I'm not aware. 17 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 18 instruction. 19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 Q. What kind of charitable work was Jeffrey 21 Epstein -- 22 A. I can tell you Donald Trump has been to 23 Jeffrey Epstein's home, and I've seen him there. 24 Q. Okay. What question do you think that 25 you're answering? www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615638

518 1 A. Well, you're asking about general things 2 people -- 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's move 4 forward. 5 A. -- so I mean, I gave you an example of one 6 who has been there. 7 BY MR. EDWARDS: 8 Q. Okay. I'm specifically talking about 9 when -- we started with was lying when she 10 said that Jeffrey Epstein socialized with Bill 11 Clinton during the relevant time period. And now 12 I'm drilling it. 13 A. I don't know the answer to that. 14 Q. Okay. Did you understand -- did Bill 15 Clinton travel with Jeffrey Epstein? 16 A. My understanding from newspaper -- 17 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 18 instruction. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. SCOTT: Can we take a break in a few www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615639

519 1 minutes? I would like -- in the afternoon, he 2 gets a little tired, so I would like to, every 3 hour or so, take -- an hour and ten minutes, 4 take a couple-minute break. 5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: You tell me when 6 is a good -- 7 MR. EDWARDS: Maybe 15 minutes and we'll 8 switch topics, and we can take a break. Good, 9 Tom? 10 MR. SCOTT: Yes. 11 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 Q. Was lying when she says 14 she was introduced to Prince Andrew through Jeffrey 15 Epstein? 16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 17 instruction. 18 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Under 19 non-privileged information. 20 A. I have seen a photograph of Prince Andrew 21 and and Ghislaine Maxwell. I have 22 myself met Prince Andrew. He came to my class at 23 Harvard Law School and there was a dinner for him, 24 and he asked about Jeffrey Epstein. We discussed 25 Jeffrey Epstein. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615640

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522 1 correct? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. And you know her through Jeffrey Epstein, 4 right? 5 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 6 instruction. 7 A. I wrote an article about her father's 8 death years ago, and I don't remember if I met her 9 independently. I do remember meeting her through 10 her -- I remember that the Lady Rothschild asked me 11 to meet Jeffrey Epstein, and when Jeffrey Epstein 12 came to meet me, he was with Ghislaine Maxwell. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. And when was that? 15 A. The first time I Jeffrey Epstein, which 16 would have been in the summer of Leslie Wexner's 17 59th birthday. That's all I can tell you is the 18 summer of his 59th birthday because I then flew with 19 Jeffrey Epstein to Leslie Wexner's 59th birthday. I 20 was presented to Leslie Wexner. Leslie would like 21 to get as birthday gifts interesting people that his 22 friends had met during the year, and so I was 23 Jeffrey Epstein's intellectual gift to Leslie 24 Wexner. And it was that year that I met Jeffrey 25 Epstein. That's the best I can date it. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615643

523 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. I'm asking about your conversations with 16 Ghislaine Maxwell, who's in a separate litigation, 17 civil litigation for defamation. Have you 18 personally spoken with Ghislaine Maxwell since these 19 allegations? 20 A. If there's no objection, I will answer. 21 MR. INDYKE: There was an objection. Same 22 objection, same instruction. 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 Q. Is there a joint defense agreement related 25 to the civil allegation -- actions regarding the www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615644

524 1 defamation actions that involve Ghislaine Maxwell 2 and yourself? 3 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. 4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: What's the 5 basis -- can you explain to me what the basis 6 of the objection is -- and what was the 7 question? 8 MR. EDWARDS: Has Mr. Dershowitz spoken 9 with Ghislaine Maxwell since the allegations -- 10 since this defamation suit came about as well 11 as the defamation suit with Ghislaine Maxwell. 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 Q. Let me ask it cleaner. Have you spoken 14 with Ghislaine Maxwell since January 2015? 15 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 16 instruction. 17 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 Q. So that I'm clear, there is a joint 19 defense of the allegations regarding Ghislaine 20 Maxwell that's New York litigation and this 21 defamation case? 22 MR. INDYKE: There's a common interest 23 agreement in effect with respect to the 24 New York case and a common interest agreement 25 with respect to this case. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615645

525 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. Okay. Was lying when she 3 says that she was taken by Ghislaine Maxwell and 4 MR. SCAROLA: Who negotiated the agreement 5 and when? 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7 Q. Is there a common interest agreement in 8 existence with respect to the allegations that have 9 arisen since January of 2015 or that you contend 10 covers that? 11 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 12 instruction. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. If there is, who negotiated this 15 agreement? 16 MR. SCAROLA: Can we have a ruling on 17 propriety? 18 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: You haven't 19 pushed me, so I let you go. 20 MR. SCAROLA: Can we have a ruling as to 21 whether we get to know whether Mr. Dershowitz 22 is a party to a common interest agreement with 23 Ghislaine Maxwell? 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Counsel 25 MS. McCAWLEY: Also, just this is Sigrid www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615646

526 1 McCawley, if any of the individuals on the 2 phone are representing Ghislaine Maxwell, my 3 understanding is the person on the phone is 4 representing Jeffrey Epstein, not Ghislaine 5 Maxwell. That needs to be clarified. 6 MR. INDYKE: Correct. Correct. 7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: The answer is 8 correct? 9 MR. INDYKE: With respect to Mr. Epstein, 10 I can tell you there's a common interest 11 agreement with respect to this matter and a 12 common interest agreement with respect to the 13 Ghislaine Maxwell suit in New York. 14 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is 15 Mr. Dershowitz party to that? 16 MR. INDYKE: Mr. Dershowitz is party to a 17 common interest agreement with Jeffrey in this 18 case. And I believe -- I'd have to check, but 19 I believe that that would extend 20 MR. SCAROLA: We want an answer from the 21 witness as to whether the witness is a party to 22 a common interest agreement with Ghislaine 23 Maxwell. 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Then ask the 25 question, because I haven't seen the question www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615647

527 1 asked yet. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. Are you a party to a common interest 4 agreement with Ghislaine Maxwell? 5 A. If there's no objection, I'll answer it. 6 MR. INDYKE: I apologize. I thought we 7 were still operating under the original set of 8 objections. So I will repeat it. Same 9 objection, same instruction. 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: With respect to 11 that question, you can answer 12 A. My understanding is that I am still 13 Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer. Jeffrey Epstein, I 14 understand, has a common interest or joint defense 15 agreement with Ghislaine Maxwell, so I have -- my 16 understanding is that I am bound by a common 17 agreement. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. Is this the same common interest agreement 20 that we were talking about from 2005, or is this a 21 separate common interest agreement that has been 22 signed as a consequence of the lawsuits that have 23 been filed since January 2015? 24 MR. INDYKE: If this is a new question, 25 I'll assert the same objection and the same www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615648

528 1 instruction. 2 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: And I'm going to 3 overrule the objection. And you can answer 4 that. 5 A. My understanding is that it's a 6 combination; that is, it reflects the previous 7 agreement and that there is a new agreement that 8 supplemented the previous agreement. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. When you say it's your understanding, is 11 this understanding in writing; meaning, is there a 12 written common interest agreement that has been put 13 in place since January of 2015? 14 A. I don't know. 15 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 16 instruction. 17 MR. SCOTT: Can we take a recess when we 18 get a chance? 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes, but I'm 20 going to instruct you -- 21 A. I don't know. I don't know the answer to 22 that, whether there's additional writing or not. 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 Q. Last question, then we take a break. Have 25 you signed any such agreement www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615649

529 1 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 2 instruction. 3 BY MR. EDWARDS: 4 Q. -- since January 2015? 5 A. Since January? Not to my recollection. 6 MR. EDWARDS: We can take a break. 7 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record. The 8 time is approximately 2:09 p.m. 9 (Recess was held from 2:09 p.m. until 2:26 p.m.) 10 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record. 11 Time is approximately 2:26 p.m. 12 13 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615650

530 12 says that she was paid to have sex with Prince 13 Andrew? 14 A. I have no idea. 15 Q. You have met Prince Andrew, right? 16 A. I have. 17 Q. He sat in the back of your classrooms? 18 MR. SCOTT: Objection, asked and answered 19 twice. 20 A. Once, yes. 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 22 Q. I think we went to Jeffrey Epstein sitting 23 in your classrooms, but now I'm talking about Prince 24 Andrew sat in your classroom as well, right? 25 A. Yes, once. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615651

531 1 MR. SCOTT: I thought we went through 2 Andrew before; maybe I'm wrong. 3 BY MR. EDWARDS: 4 Q. Have you, since the -- since January of 5 2015, have you contacted Prince Andrew? 6 A. No. I got a Christmas card from him. 7 Q. Have you spoke with him about the 8 allegations that were alleged against Prince Andrew? 9 A. Not to him, but to -- not to him. 10 Q. Have you spoke to some representative of 11 his, of Prince Andrew? 12 A. I need to know whether -- 13 MR. INDYKE: Guy, sorry, I was just cut 14 off for some reason. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hold on a 16 second. Go ahead and restate your question 17 so -- Darren, can you hear now? 18 MR. INDYKE: Yes, I can. 19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 Q. My question is, have you spoken with 21 Prince Andrew or any representative of or for Prince 22 Andrew since January of 2015? 23 MR. SCOTT: If any of that involved work 24 product on our part, I am instructing you not 25 to answer. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615652

532 1 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 2 instruction on my end as well. 3 BY MR. EDWARDS: 4 Q. Whether or not you have spoken with him 5 would not be protected. 6 A. I have not spoken to him. 7 MR. SCOTT: That, I don't have a problem 8 with. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. Have you spoken with any representative of 11 Prince Andrew since January of 2015? 12 A. Is there any objection? I don't think I 13 have, but I think my lawyers have. But I don't 14 think I have. 15 MR. SCOTT: Don't go into any work 16 product. 17 A. I don't think I have. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. Do you know that some representative of 20 yours has spoken with some representative of Prince 21 Andrew since January of 2015? 22 A. I think so, yes. 23 Q. Is Prince Andrew a party to any joint 24 defense agreement? 25 A. Not that I am -- www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615653

533 1 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 2 instruction. 3 A. I'm not aware of any. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. Okay. Do you know which representative 6 which of your representatives communicated with 7 which of Prince Andrew's representatives? 8 A. No. I do remember being told, though, 9 that there was a call from Prince Andrew's people to 10 one of my lawyers, but that's all I know. 11 Q. So when I'm asking you whether ■ is lying about having sex with Prince Andrew 13 when she was under the age of 18, do you know the 14 answer to that question from -- 15 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 16 instruction. 17 A. Same answer. If it's based on her own 18 statement, I have no reason to believe it. If 19 there's other objective evidence, I'm not aware of 20 it. 21 I have no 22 reason to believe she would be telling the truth. 23 But I don't have any personal knowledge of that. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. What information do you have from Prince www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615654

534 1 2 3 4 Andrew's representative on that subject? MR. SCOTT: Don't answer that question. MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same instruction. 5 A. I can say publicly -- 6 MR. SCOTT: Don't answer that. You've 7 been told. 8 A. Okay, I'm sorry. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615655

535 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615656

536 1 2 3 Q. Ghislaine Maxwell has been friends and 4 acquaintances of Prince Andrew for a very long time. 5 You know that, right? 6 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 7 instruction. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. Is that privileged, the answer to that 10 question, Ghislaine Maxwell's relationship with 11 Prince Andrew? Let me ask it this ■ -- 12 MR. INDYKE: To the extent that 13 Mr. Dershowitz obtained that information in 14 connection with his representation of Jeffrey 15 Epstein, of course it is. 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17 Q. I have a better ■ to go about this, 18 then. Ghislaine Maxwell and you met her well 19 before 2005, didn't you? 20 A. I did, yes. 21 Q. And Prince Andrew you met before 2005 as 22 well, correct? 23 A. I think it was before 2005, yeah. 24 Q. And prior to 2005, you understood that 25 Ghislaine Maxwell and Prince Andrew were social www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615657

537 1 acquaintances, didn't you? 2 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 3 instruction. 4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That deals with 5 if you have any nonprivileged. 6 A. I do. 7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Then I would 8 overrule the objection to that extent. 9 A. I've seen them together at a party on 10 Martha's Vineyard given by Lady Rothschild. 11 BY MR. EDWARDS: 12 Q. And back at that time, prior to your 13 representation of Jeffrey Epstein, did he tell you 14 that he had been introduced to Prince Andrew through 15 Ghislaine Maxwell? 16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 17 instruction. As Mr. Dershowitz previously 18 responded to the question about representation, 19 he said it was -- maybe he did not represent 20 Mr. Epstein in this case, but he represented 21 him in other cases. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I will overrule 23 the objection to the extent that you have 24 nonprivileged information that you can base the 25 answer. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615658

538 1 A. Yes. And in a letter that Prince Andrew 2 wrote to me thanking me for inviting him to my class 3 and having the dinner for him at Harvard Law School, 4 he made a reference to Jeffrey Epstein. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. And when was -- when did Prince Andrew 7 write a letter to you? 8 A. When he came to my class at Harvard Law 9 School, just a thank-you note. 10 Q. What was the approximate date of that 11 letter? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. What was the approximate year of the 14 letter? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Do you still have the letter? 17 A. I'll check. 18 Q. Is there any reason why you haven't 19 personally contacted Prince Andrew to discuss these 20 allegations? 21 MR. SCOTT: Objection, hypothetical, 22 speculation. 23 A. Not easy to reach the Queen, not easy to 24 reach the Prince. I don't know who I would call. 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615659

539 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. Couldn't you just call Ghislaine Maxwell, 3 though? It's not that easy for many people. 4 Couldn't you call Ghislaine? 5 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 6 MR. SCOTT: Argumentative. 7 BY MR. EDWARDS: 8 Q. Do you know the circumstances -- as you 9 sit here, the circumstances that led to this 10 photograph being taken in London? 11 A. No. 12 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 13 instruction. 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 Q. Have you ever seen photographs or the 16 copies of photographs of young naked teenage girls 17 that were taken from within the closet of Jeffrey 18 Epstein's home in Palm Beach? 19 A. Absolutely not. 20 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 21 instruction. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. Have you ever attempted to get those 24 photographs from the law enforcement 25 MR. SCOTT: Let the lawyer make his www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615660

540 1 objection before you respond, Professor 2 Dershowitz. 3 MR. INDYKE: Finish your question, please. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. Have you ever attempted to obtain those 6 photographs taken through the search warrant of 7 Jeffrey Epstein's home from law enforcement? 8 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 9 instruction. 10 MR. EDWARDS: He's being instructed not to 11 answer whether he's ever attempted to obtain 12 the photographs? 13 MR. INDYKE: If it was done in connection 14 with his representation of Mr. Epstein, it's 15 work product. 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17 Q. But I'm asking about communication that 18 you had with law enforcement. Are you claiming that 19 the communication you had with law enforcement is 20 protected by privilege? 21 MR. SCOTT: He's not claiming anything. 22 He's being instructed by a lawyer. 23 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. Well, I want to 24 understand what the record is -- 25 MR. SCOTT: Then ask the lawyer, not my www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615661

541 1 client. 2 MR. EDWARDS: Darren, is that you? 3 MR. INDYKE: That is me, yes. 4 MR. EDWARDS: Are you saying that 5 Mr. Dershowitz or any of Jeffrey Epstein's 6 legal team, that their communication with law 7 enforcement is privileged? 8 MR. INDYKE: Whether or not such 9 communication exists and if they've never been 10 used, yes. 11 BY MR. EDWARDS: 12 Q. Do you know whether the photographs of 13 young, naked teenage girls that were taken within 14 Jeffrey Epstein's home contain photographs of 15 while she was a young girl? 16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 17 instruction. 18 A. Of course not. I've never seen those 19 photographs. But here I can answer nowhere, if I 20 ever was with Jeffrey Epstein in any of his homes, 21 did I ever see a naked photograph of anybody except 22 for a Rodin model, which was a sepia print in the 23 entranceway, kind of a classic Rodin model print, 24 but I've never, ever seen any photograph of any 25 naked, underage, inappropriate -- my grandchildren www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615662

542 1 visited his house. My wife visited his house. I 2 never would have permitted anybody to visit a home 3 that had those kinds of pictures displayed. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. Was lying when she said 6 that Epstein sent girls to some of his friends? 7 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 8 instruction. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. To any of his friends? 11 MR. SCOTT: Only on nonprivileged. 12 A. To the extent that she said that I was one 13 of those friends, which I know is a categorical 14 absolute lie, I would not believe anything she said 15 about having been sent to others of his friends. 16 But I don't have personal knowledge of that. All I 17 have is personal knowledge that lied when she said 18 she was sent to me. 19 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Have you at any time obtained personal 22 knowledge of Jeffrey Epstein having sent any girls 23 to any of his friends? 24 A. No. 25 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615663

543 1 instruction. Please wait for the objection. 2 MR. SCOTT: Please listen. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. When and under what circumstances did you 6 first hear ' name? 7 A. My recollection -- 8 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 9 instruction. 10 A. My answer will show it's not privileged. 11 My current recollection is the first time I heard 12 the name was when I was called and told that she was 13 accusing me. The name was not familiar to me at the 14 time. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. Were you ever familiar with the list of 17 victims that were listed as a part of the criminal 18 investigation -- the federal criminal investigation? 19 MR. SCOTT: Asked and answered in the last 20 depo and earlier today. 21 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 22 instruction. 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 Q. Was lying when she said that 25 Jeffrey Epstein's code word for sexual encounters www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615664

544 1 with minors was "massage"? 2 A. I have no idea. 3 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 4 instruction. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. Have you reviewed the message pads that 7 were taken as a result of trash pulls conducted by 8 the Palm Beach Police Department on Jeffrey 9 Epstein's home? 10 A. Not to my knowledge. 11 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 12 instruction. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Have you reviewed the document that has 15 been at times referred to as the "Holy Grail," which 16 is a phone journal from Jeffrey Epstein's computer? 17 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 18 instruction to the extent it's privileged and 19 you got it other than from any kind of 20 disclosure by Mr. Edwards. 21 MR. SCOTT: Unless it's nonprivileged. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: All these 23 questions -- with respect to nonprivileged, if 24 you can answer them, answer them. 25 A. I'm happy to answer them all. So the www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615665

545 1 question is am I familiar with this -- is this the 2 one that has the circles? 3 BY MR. EDWARDS: 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. That has Donald Trump circled and Bill 6 Clinton circled and me circled? 7 Q. I didn't know that it had Bill Clinton 8 circled. 9 A. Maybe not. 10 Q. So, just so that the record is clear, the 11 journal -- was the journal 12 MR. SCOTT: Was this marked in the last 13 depo? I don't recall. I don't think so. 14 MR. SCAROLA: I don't think that it was. 15 MR. INDYKE: To the extent that those 16 items are from -- I think the exhibits are a 17 statement of undisputed facts, obviously my 18 objection would apply to those items. To the 19 extent that they came out of Mr. Dershowitz's 20 representation of Mr. Epstein, I would object 21 if the answer is based as to information in 22 them. 23 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: We haven't seen 24 the exhibit yet. I know you are on the other 25 end of the phone. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615666

546 1 THE WITNESS: Can I take a one-minute, 2 two-minute break? 3 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record, 4 2:43 p.m. 5 (Recess was held from 2:43 p.m. until 2:45 p.m.) 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record. 7 The time is approximately 2:45 p.m. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. Have you ever read the case documents 10 related to the arrest of Alfredo Rodriguez for the 11 Federal obstruction of justice charges? 12 A. No. 13 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 14 instruction. 15 MR. SIMPSON: Just pause for a second 16 before answering to let Mr. Indyke jump in if 17 he needs to. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. The journal that we're talking about is 20 the one that has been disclosed in discovery in this 21 case and in prior cases where, as you mentioned 22 before, certain people's names are circled. Are you 23 familiar with that document? 24 A. I have perused the part of it that circled 25 me and some other prominent names. I have not read www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615667

547 1 2 3 4 5 6 the whole document. Q. I'm going to show you the page from this journal that is for Bill Clinton just based off of your last comment, and then I'll ask you some questions about that. A. This doesn't say Bill Clinton, it says 7 Doug Band. That's what you're talking about. 8 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff 9 Exhibit 20.) 10 A. This doesn't have an entry for Bill 11 Clinton It has an entry for Douglas Band, who I 12 know. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. You know Doug Band? 15 A. Sure. 16 Q. Is Doug Band affiliated with Bill Clinton? 17 A. Oh, yeah, he was. Not any longer. 18 Q. 19 A. 20 Q. 21 A. 22 23 24 25 A. How do you know Doug Band? Through Bill Clinton. How do you know Bill Clinton? I've known him for -- MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection, same instruction. MR. SIMPSON: Nonprivileged information. Well outside of my relationship with www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615668

548 1 Jeffrey Epstein. I was -- supported him. I've been 2 to the White House at his invitation. I've had 3 dinner with him on numerous occasions. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. Have you called Bill Clinton with respect 6 to the allegations that have been made in this 7 lawsuit? 8 A. I've tried to. 9 Q. Has Bill Clinton given you any comment 10 whatsoever on any of the allegations? 11 A. Not personally, but Doug Band has. And 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 with Doug Band? 19 A. Very shortly after the accusation, as soon 20 as I could reach him. 21 Q. January 2015? 22 A. Probably January. 23 Q. Is Doug Band somebody who traveled with 24 Jeffrey Epstein as well? 25 A. That's true -- no, he traveled -- Q. When was that conversation that you had www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615669

549 1 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 2 instruction. 3 A. He traveled with Bill Clinton always. I 4 mean, he was his body man. He was the guy who 5 traveled with him wherever he went. 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7 Q. My question is, did Doug Band ever travel 8 with Bill Clinton -- I mean with Jeffrey Epstein? 9 A. I don't know the answer to that. 10 Q. Well, did Bill Clinton ever travel with 11 Jeffrey Epstein? 12 MR. SIMPSON: Asked and answered. 13 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 14 instruction. 15 A. According to public information, yes. 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17 Q. And Doug Band, you are saying, was always 18 with Bill Clinton? 19 A. Not always, but he was the guy who 20 traveled with him. Nobody can be with anybody 24/7. 21 Q. The flight logs will speak for themselves 22 whether the two were traveling together, correct? 23 A. I have no idea. 24 Q. That entry -- I believe the comment that 25 you made was that was Alfredo Rodriguez had circled www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615670

550 1 Bill Clinton's name. 2 A. I thought he had. He circled a lot of 3 prominent people's names, Hollywood actors. 4 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Do you know that 5 outside of your relationship with Mr. Epstein? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I saw the -- 7 MR. INDYKE: I'm asking Mr. Dershowitz if 8 he's answering that question outside of his 9 relationship with -- his attorney-client 10 relationship or work product relationship or 11 common interest relationship with Mr. Epstein. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 MR. SIMPSON: The document was produced in 14 discovery. 15 MR. INDYKE: The question is as for the 16 circles in the document. 17 A. The document I saw had circles in it, and 18 I saw that in discovery in this case. I hadn't seen 19 it previously. 20 MR. INDYKE: Okay. 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 22 Q. So you have seen the notations that 23 Alfredo Rodriguez made to the document during the 24 time he was turning the document over to the FBI? 25 A. The only notations that I saw that I www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615671

551 1 recall are circles. 2 Q. Okay. And is it your understanding that 3 Alfredo Rodriguez was indicating to the FBI who was 4 involved in the illegal activity with minors along 5 with Jeffrey Epstein? 6 A. Absolutely not. Categorically absolutely 7 not. 8 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 9 instruction. 10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 11 Q. That's not your understanding? 12 A. Not only is it not my understanding, it is 13 a totally false statement because if it were true, 14 Donald Trump would be standing accused of having 15 improper sexual conduct and many other Hollywood 16 actors, actresses and other people who have never 17 been accused by your lying client would also stand 18 accused. 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's move -- 20 MR. EDWARDS: That was not my question. 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me stop 22 before we get too far down this. The document 23 that -- the portion of the document that you're 24 asking questions upon, let's understand the 25 context of the questions, and Mr. Dershowitz's www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615672

552 1 answer so far has been that because it's been 2 produced in this case. So let's stay focused 3 on that. 4 A. Can I see that document, please. 5 MR. INDYKE: Just for clarification, I 6 don't want to interrupt, but for clarification, 7 I wasn't objecting to the document. I was 8 objecting to the foundation upon which 9 Mr. Dershowitz may or may not know why they 10 were circled, how that information came 11 through. 12 A. I know that independently. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. You know why the various circles were made 15 independently? 16 A. No, but I know what the allegation is. 17 Q. The allegation -- you know what the 18 allegation is why the circles were made? 19 A. I know that it was not that the people 20 whose name were circled were involved in any illegal 21 activity. Can you please show me the document. 22 MR. SCOTT: Can he see the exhibit? 23 MR. SCAROLA: I -- 24 MR. EDWARDS: I don't have it. I mean, I 25 only have the piece of the page that he just www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615673

553 1 talked about, which is Bill Clinton. I mean, I 2 have it and I'll copy it for you and I'll give 3 it to you tomorrow and we can talk about the 4 whole document. 5 A. It is a categorical lie -- 6 MR. SCOTT: Let's put it over until 7 tomorrow, then, when we have the exhibit. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. Well, that before you -- you just 10 indicated that one of the people who was circled was 11 Bill Clinton. 12 A. I said I thought. 13 MR. SCOTT: He also indicated he would 14 like to see the whole exhibit. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. On that page that's before you that's 17 listed Doug Band, is Bill Clinton's name listed 18 under that? 19 A. It says Office of William J. Clinton. 20 Q. Are there numbers for Bill Clinton listed 21 under that entry? 22 A. I assume they're numbers of Bill Clinton. 23 I assume so. 24 Q. When you talked to Doug Band, can you tell 25 us what that conversation was that you had with Doug www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615674

554 1 Band? 2 A. Yes. 12 Q. Go on. What did Doug Band tell you? 13 A. That it wasn't true. 14 Q. Did Doug Band tell you whether Bill 15 Clinton had ever been to Jeffrey Epstein's island? 16 A. He told me that to his knowledge, 17 President Clinton had never been to Jeffrey 18 Epstein's island. 19 Q. Did he tell you whether Bill Clinton and 20 Jeffrey Epstein had ever shared a meal together? 21 A. I didn't ask him that question. I only 22 asked him about the island. I think I only asked 23 him -- I'm not positive whether I asked him during 24 the relevant period or ever. I think I asked him 25 ever. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615675

555 1 Q. Had -- has Bill Clinton ever flown on an 2 airplane -- or sorry, on a helicopter with Ghislaine 3 Maxwell? 4 A. Not to my knowledge. 5 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection, 6 same instructions. 7 A. I cannot imagine the former President or a 8 President of the United States being allowed by the 9 Secret Service to fly on a helicopter with a pilot 10 who had just barely been licensed. 11 BY MR. EDWARDS: 12 Q. I'm just asking what you know. Do you 13 know whether or not 14 A. I know -- I know that Bill Clinton never 15 flew never was flown by Ghislaine Maxwell to the 16 island. I know it based on my common sense 17 experience. 18 Q. Not my question. My question is, do you 19 know whether Bill Clinton ever flew on a helicopter 20 with Ghislaine Maxwell? 21 MR. SCOTT: On the phone, there's 22 background. Thank you. 23 A. I don't know for sure, but I would 24 seriously doubt it. 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615676

556 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. We're going to get tomorrow the circled 4 document that we can look at? 5 Q. I can find it now and I can get it and we 6 can look at it today. 7 MR. SCOTT: Take a minute. 8 A. I want to make sure we see all the circled 9 names. 10 MR. EDWARDS: Here's a copy right here 11 that we can copy at the next break. 12 MR. SCOTT: Sure. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Was lying when she says 15 that Ghislaine Maxwell served as Jeffrey Epstein's 16 madam? 17 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 18 instruction. 19 A. I would have no knowledge that would 20 establish that. Certainly I wouldn't believe it 21 just because she said it. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. Have you asked Ghislaine Maxwell about 24 that? 25 A. No. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615677

557 1 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 2 instruction. 3 BY MR. EDWARDS: 4 Q. One of the things -- one of the statements 5 that we began the day with was that something that 6 Paul and I could have done was call you and ask you, 7 right, we could have picked up the phone and called 8 you? 9 A. You and Mr. Cassell, yeah. Yeah. 10 Q. When you were representing Jeffrey Epstein 11 back in 2007, did you ever insist that Jeffrey 12 Epstein had paid for massages, but had not engaged 13 in sex or erotic massages with any minors? 14 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 15 instruction to the extent that you can 16 specify -- 17 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 Q. I'm asking whether you ever made that 19 statement. 20 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 21 instruction. 22 A. Can you repeat the question for me? 23 THE REPORTER: "When you were representing 24 Jeffrey Epstein back in 2007, did you ever 25 insist that Jeffrey Epstein had paid for www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615678

558 1 massages, but had not engaged in sex or erotic 2 massages with any minors?" 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: By definition of 4 your question, it's within the representation 5 of Jeffrey Epstein, right? So in a -- without 6 any further clarification, I would agree with 7 the objection. 8 MR. SCAROLA: I'm sorry, this is about a 9 public statement. 10 MS. McCAWLEY: It's a public statement. 11 MR. EDWARDS: It's a public statement that 12 he makes to the New York -- 13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So then make 14 your question limited to that. Then I can rule 15 on that. That's why looked at the question. 16 MR. SCOTT: If you specify where the 17 statement came from, it would be helpful. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. Did you ever make a public statement -- 20 did you ever make a statement in public that Jeffrey 21 Epstein had paid for massages, but had not engaged 22 in sex or erotic massages with any minors? 23 A. May I see the statement? 24 Q. Sure. 25 MR. SCAROLA: No. www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615679

559 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. Well, did you make that statement? 3 A. I have no recollection of whether I made a 4 statement like that ten years ago. I'd like to see 5 the statement. 6 MR. SCAROLA: Now you can refresh his 7 recollection. 8 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 9 instruction. 10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 11 Q. Did you make a public statement that 12 Epstein was innocent of all allegations? 13 MR. SCOTT: Let me object to this in the 14 context that he's asking him statements from 15 ten years ago without specifying date, time and 16 place. It's just unfair. 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: If you're 18 reading from an article, published article, 19 then show him that. Let's stop for a second. 20 Do you recall making that statement? 21 THE WITNESS: I do not recall. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Will you show 23 him something that might 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. Sure. I'm going to go through each of the www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615680

560 1 2 3 4 three statements and then I'm going to show you the document. SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: These all deal with public statements, right? 5 Q. Yes. 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7 8 9 10 11 12 • ^ou e p o re res your reco ec ion 13 if I showed you the statement? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 www.phi sre orting.com EFTA00615681

61 www.phi sre orting.com So your -- MR. SCOTT: Are we going to mark that? MR. EDWARDS: Yes, we can mark that. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 9 10 11 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00615682