Page 1 United States Department of Justice INTERVIEW OF: GHISLAINE MAXWELL DATE: July 24, 2025 APPEARANCES: For the United States: Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney General Diego Pestana, Acting Associate Deputy Attorney General Spencer Horn, FBI Special Agent Mark Beard, Deputy U.S. Marshal For Ghislaine Maxwell: David Markus Leah Saffian Melissa Madrigal MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 2 1 I N T E R V I E W 2 *** 3 TODD BLANCHE: I am going to ask everybody 4 to put their name on the record here. 5 SPENCER HORN: Good morning. My name is 6 Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Spencer Horn of 7 FBI, New York. 8 Today we're doing a proffer of 9 Ms. Maxwell. The date is July 24th and the time is 10 10:12 a.m. This interview is being recorded. 11 TODD BLANCHE: And my name is Todd 12 Blanche. I'm the Deputy Attorney General. And 13 before we start formally asking questions of 14 Ms. Maxwell, I'm going to put on the record everybody 15 that's in this room, in addition to me, starting with 16 you, Diego. 17 DIEGO PESTANA: Diego Pestana, Associate 18 Deputy Attorney General. 19 TODD BLANCHE: And then you heard from 20 Special Agent in Charge Horn. Mark Beard from the 21 United States Marshal Service is here as well. 22 And then David. 23 DAVID MARKUS: Yes. This is David Oscar 24 Markus, and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell. 25 LEAH SAFFIAN: My name is Leah Saffian and MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 3 1 I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell. 2 MELISSA MADRIGAL: My name is 3 Melissa Madrigal and I'm counsel for Ghislaine 4 Maxwell. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I'm -- I'm 7 Ghislaine Maxwell. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Good morning, Ms. Maxwell. 9 How are you? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Good morning, 11 Mr. Blanche. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Good. Okay. So before we 13 started recording, we met for a few minutes. I 14 introduced myself and we -- we've chatted and now 15 I've told you that we were going on the record. And 16 before we start asking questions, I know that you've 17 been given, by your lawyer, a copy of what's called a 18 proffer agreement. 19 And I just want to spend two minutes 20 making sure that you understand what -- what governs 21 our conversation today. The most important part of 22 this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation 23 agreement, meaning that by you meeting with us today, 24 we're really just meeting, I'm not promising to do 25 anything. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 4 1 I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or 2 any of the judges that's been assigned to your case 3 to do anything. It -- we're just talking. And so 4 that's the most important -- important part of -- of 5 this agreement. 6 However, almost as important is the fact 7 that what this agreement does for you is it gives you 8 protection. So what it means is that the government 9 cannot use what you say today against you, with some 10 exceptions, which we'll talk about in a minute. 11 But whatever you talk about today, you 12 have what's called immunity. So that means that the 13 words that you say today, we cannot use against you 14 in a case in chief, if we were ever to bring one. 15 Okay? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. 17 TODD BLANCHE: All right. There's 18 exceptions to that. The most meaningful one of which 19 is that, if you say something today that's not true, 20 that's a lie, we can bring a prosecution against you 21 for what's called false statements. 22 So I'm a federal officer, I have several 23 officers here. The FBI is here. And if -- if you 24 lie to someone that's -- like me or like Special 25 Agent Horn, it's a crime. So you have to be MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 5 1 truthful. 2 The other exception to this, that doesn't 3 necessarily apply directly to you, but if there ever 4 was a retrial in your case, or if there ever was a -- 5 a criminal case -- a future criminal case against 6 you, and your lawyer or you said something different 7 or took a position that's different than what you say 8 today, we can then cross examine you or a witness, 9 based upon what you say today. 10 So it's a little bit nuanced, meaning I 11 can't use what you say against you in our case in 12 chief. However, if you were to testify or if your 13 lawyer called a witness to testify, and they said 14 something that is totally different than what you say 15 today, we could then cross examine you or the witness 16 and say, hey, do you remember when we met with 17 Ms. Wax -- when we met with Ms. Maxwell back in July 18 of 2025? She told us and then say what she said. 19 Okay? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I understand. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Other than that, 22 you -- I -- I know you didn't have a lot of time this 23 morning to meet with -- with -- with Mr. Markus, but 24 did -- did you have a chance to go over this briefly 25 with him? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 6 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So I've 3 already signed it, as has Special Agent Horn -- 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 5 TODD BLANCHE: -- and Mr. Markus signed it 6 as well. So you got a pen, please sign it -- 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right here? 8 TODD BLANCHE: -- right where it says 9 "client." Yes. 10 And I will provide a copy of this to -- to 11 your lawyer so you guys have it. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay, thank you. 14 So Ms. Maxwell, about a week and a half 15 ago or two weeks ago -- 16 SPENCER HORN: Can you see the light 17 blinking on there? On the Sony? Yeah, there it is. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. We're just confirming 19 that it works and it does. 20 Ms. Maxwell, I guess about a week and a 21 half or two weeks ago, Mr. Markus reached out to me 22 and said that -- that you wanted to speak with 23 somebody from the government about, not only your 24 case, but about everything that's been in the media 25 and that's been publicized about Mr. Epstein in your MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 7 1 case. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's -- 3 TODD BLANCHE: Did he -- 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's true and I did 5 speak to him and I did ask him if -- oh, and did tell 6 him that I would be very keen to talk to anyone, 7 because no one from the government, at any time, ever 8 in the -- since the inception of the case, so dating 9 back to the early 2000s, has ever spoken to me, and 10 indeed, I believe ever reached out to me at any time 11 to even speak to me. And that includes up to when I 12 was indicted and prosecuted. 13 I believe that -- or I understand, I 14 should say, rather, that my attorneys, at the time, 15 did tell the government that I wanted to speak to 16 them, because I was very keen to meet with anyone, so 17 that I could tell or have them ask me any question. 18 I've never had any problem to -- to speak 19 to anybody. And I offered myself and I kept asking, 20 if they would meet with me, so I could talk to them 21 and for whatever reason -- 22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that was not 24 happening. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I have questions MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 8 1 that I want to ask you, but I'm not -- if there's a 2 path that -- a question that I'm not asking, that you 3 think should be asked, I -- I invite you to 4 volunteer. Same thing goes to your lawyers. 5 Just to start a little bit very briefly, 6 can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein. I 7 know that goes back a while. And just very generally 8 talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein, from 9 the time you met him all the way up until -- until 10 his death. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Mr. Epstein in 12 1991. My -- I had -- I had never heard of him or met 13 him before. And no one in my family had ever either. 14 My father never knew him. And I'll explain why that 15 is the case. I met -- 16 TODD BLANCHE: Where did you -- where -- 17 where did you meet him? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had a girlfriend 19 who -- I -- I was -- yeah. I had moved to America, 20 briefly, in -- well, I'd moved to America in 1990. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- well "moved," 23 that's a big word. I'd come to visit America in 24 1990. I had been running my own company up until 25 that time, which was a company called Maxwell's MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 9 1 Corporate Gifts. 2 And I had also been working for my father 3 at the time. I had multiple jobs with him. I was -- 4 in 1990 I was working with a -- a new company of his, 5 a new -- a new newspaper that he was launching, 6 called The European. 7 And I was in charge of launching a 8 magazine to go with the -- The European. And I was 9 traveling at that time from England to America, 10 because my father was looking to -- well, he'd also 11 bought McMillan the -- the publishing house. And he 12 had purchased the New York Daily News. 13 And it's truth that my father always 14 wanted me to come back, full time and work for him, 15 but that's a much longer story I don't think we need 16 to go into at this time. 17 So -- but I was always working with him. 18 There was no escaping it were -- as it were to -- to 19 work for him. 20 So in 1990, I had come over to New York, 21 to help look at some of that. He was having some 22 advertising issues with the New York Daily News. And 23 in fact, I met -- I may have met Donald Trump at that 24 time, because my father was friendly with him and 25 liked him very much. And I think, should be said MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 10 1 that he also very much liked Ivana, because she was 2 also from Czechoslovakia where my dad was from. 3 So I don't -- I don't remember if I did 4 meet him or not in 1990 with my dad, but I knew that 5 that's how I knew about, -- about Mr. Trump. 6 TODD BLANCHE: And this was before you 7 met -- 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: This was before I met 9 Mr. Epstein. 10 TODD BLANCHE: -- Mr. Epstein? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I was already going 14 backwards and forwards in America. And then in April 15 of 1991, I came to New York, but, I can't remember 16 for what reason -- what business reason, but there 17 was a business reason -- something to do with my dad 18 at that time. 19 And a girlfriend of mine who -- an 20 American, told me I -- I -- I had broken up with my 21 long -- I'd been engaged, getting my -- the very 22 long-term boyfriend and we'd broken up. 23 And she said, I've got -- you know, as 24 your girlfriends do, I've got a guy for you to meet. 25 And I was like, who is it? And she goes, it's -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 11 1 he's been dating my sister. You'll love him. He's 2 looking for a wife. I'm edging towards 30. I don't 3 need to tell you guys, That's a very important moment 4 for a girl to, like, think about important things. 5 And sure, I'd be happy to meet him. 6 And so sometime in 1991 now. We are in 7 1991, I met him at his offices in -- on Madison 8 Garden. And I think the most memorable thing I can 9 think about that is he was wearing a tie, which he 10 didn't often do. It had a giant, seemed like a 11 ketchup stain on it. So I was like, wow, okay. And 12 that was how we met. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Was your meeting at his 14 office for you to meet him just personally or were 15 you -- were you there for -- 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was just -- 17 TODD BLANCHE: -- work related reasons? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- I knew 19 nothing about him. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- he just invited 22 me to come and have tea, and I was like tea, that's 23 English. Okay. But what was unusual, was in his 24 offices. So I went to his offices and we met. And I 25 found him very engaging and that was that. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 12 1 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So that's how 2 you meet him. So we -- and again, I don't want to 3 spend a lot of time, you know, on -- on this 4 particular issue, but what happened with your 5 relationship over the years, from the time you meet 6 him in 1991, up until the time he -- he passed away? 7 DAVID MARKUS: Just give the highlights. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay, the highlights. 9 So I -- I was looking for real estate for my dad to 10 buy some, and Epstein told me that he was also 11 looking to move from his apartment and would I help 12 him? And I -- I said, sure I'm looking already so I 13 could look for him. So that's how it started. 14 And then, in 1991, my father passed away 15 and I returned to New York after that, originally to 16 come back and help with the family businesses, which 17 was McMillan. 18 And then the debacle of my father's 19 passing hit the family. And -- and we lost all our 20 businesses and my family thought that it would be 21 best if I stayed in America, because of the intensity 22 of the press and the drama surrounding my father's 23 death in England 24 So I stayed and Epstein said, well, you 25 can keep helping me. You can help me find a house and MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 13 1 we can decorate the house. And it gave me something 2 to do. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Were you in a romantic 4 relationship with him at this point or just friends? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, just friends. 6 TODD BLANCHE: And while we're just -- 7 with respect to your father, there have been multiple 8 questions about whether he worked for any 9 intelligence agency. 10 Do you have any knowledge about that? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think -- well 12 certainly my father had a background in intelligence 13 during -- because he was -- I believe he did in the 14 second World War. He was an intelli- -- a British 15 intelligence officer. I think that, my sort of 16 belief is that once you've been an intelligence 17 officer, you're kind of -- always; it doesn't mean 18 that you're formally employed. 19 So I don't think my dad in any formal 20 sense was, you know, employed by the -- any agency. 21 But when you are a very significant businessman and 22 politician, as my father was, you meet with people 23 over time and you, I guess trade business or ideas. 24 I think if -- if that would fall under 25 that definition, that's how I would give it. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 14 1 Now he certainly, I have no formal 2 knowledge of anything specifically that he did in 3 that thing, but if you're asking me if I thought that 4 he did help people, the answer would be yes, I did. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Did your father and Mr. 6 Epstein have a business relationship over the years? 7 I know we're maybe jumping around a little bit. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They never met. So -- 9 TODD BLANCHE: As far as you know, they 10 never even met? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- I-- 12 TODD BLANCHE: -- or you know they never 13 met? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I know they never met. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Well, how do you know they 16 never met? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They -- just 18 categorically know they never met. Well, because 19 after, in 1991, before my father died, he asked me if 20 I'd met anybody interesting or whatever, you know, 21 because I was still trying not to be sucked back into 22 the family business. 23 And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein. 24 And the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Epstein, 25 because I believed, at that time, that Epstein worked MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 15 1 for Bear Stearns. And Bear Stearns was one of our 2 banks. And I knew that my father was friendly with 3 both Jimmy Cayne and with Ace Greenberg. 4 So my dad came -- was actually in 5 New York, I think. If I remem- -- I may -- I don't 6 think I had this conversation on the phone, but I -- 7 I honestly we're talking 30 years ago, so I'm not 8 sure. 9 But if I -- I maybe I told him this 10 verbatim, because it happened -- I know that what my 11 dad did, whether I saw it or whether I -- he did it 12 and told me later I -- that I don't remember. 13 But he called both Jimmy Cayne and Ace 14 Greenberg to ask if -- what sort of guy he was and 15 was he even allowed to -- because (indiscernible) 16 so . . . 17 TODD BLANCHE: So they never -- they never 18 met. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He didn't even know 20 who he was. 21 TODD BLANCHE: But they had -- they -- 22 they knew some of the same people, it sounds like, or 23 certainly the Bear Stearns connection was something 24 that -- that you -- that you knew that they had. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Well, he never MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 16 1 had a connection with Epstein. He had a connection 2 with the bank. I mean, Epstein, I'd never heard of 3 him or knew of him before. And I certainly -- if my 4 dad had known him, right, when I said, this is who he 5 was, he didn't know who he was. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So he rang Ace and he 8 rang Jimmy, to ask if it was okay that I even knew 9 him. And I just want to explain, briefly why my 10 father would even do such a thing. 11 I've had some -- some interesting things 12 that have happened in my life. And one of them was 13 to be found on an IRA kidnap and murder list. And so 14 after that happened -- well, there were other 15 related -- I'm not going to bore you with all the 16 horrible things in that vein, but I -- if you want 17 the details, of course I can. 18 But after that happened, my father wanted 19 to put a lot of protection on me, obviously. And I 20 declined on the grounds that that would be a very 21 life-restricting event. You are all in law 22 enforcement, I know you understand this. 23 And so he had told me that, you know, I 24 would be taking my life in my own hands and then 25 whatever. And so I think after that event and MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 17 1 several others, where I had stalkers and all that 2 thing that one has, he was always quite protective of 3 me. And so if I met somebody, he would try and 4 verify that they weren't going to do anything 5 hideous. 6 And so in case he thought it was weird, 7 that he would call Jimmy and -- and Ace -- it 8 might -- you know, you may think it is but in my -- 9 from my perspective, he was just -- because he was 10 concerned, I was in America alone and he had an 11 opportunity to verify who this person was. 12 And so I don't know if I was in the room 13 with him, I don't recall. But I know that at some 14 point my father told me he's fine. You can see him. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He's safe. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, okay. 19 TODD BLANCHE: So we might come back and 20 touch a little bit more on that at some point, but -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. 22 TODD BLANCHE: -- I went down a rabbit 23 hole for a minute. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's all right. I 25 just wanted to -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 18 1 TODD BLANCHE: No, that's helpful. 2 Thank you. 3 So -- okay. So you're -- you're now in 4 the '90s and you're friends with Mr. Epstein. Your 5 house -- decorating the house or the apartment. 6 What -- what happens with your 7 relationship? Again, I know we're talking about a 8 35-year time period or whatever, but to the extent 9 you can kind of, at a very high level, talk about it. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Listen, I think just 11 full disclosure is the best way to go at this point. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in 1992, I slept 14 with him one time and I was like, whoa, that's it. 15 We're going to be dating, because that's how I 16 thought. And -- and I kind of thought of myself in 17 that moment. Like, because you, I felt if you slept 18 with someone, that you were then dating them. 19 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's the world I 21 came from. But that really was -- well, that's how I 22 thought. And -- but we didn't sleep together again 23 for, I don't know, really a significant period of 24 time. And when I say -- 25 TODD BLANCHE: Like years or? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 19 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if it was 2 a year. I don't -- it feels that feels long, but 3 maybe nine months, I mean, a long time. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I just want to go 6 back to -- I had found a house for him to rent in 7 New York, because he had asked me -- I had been 8 looking at one for my father, and I found one, which 9 was a former Iranian embassy, I think it was. I 10 think it belonged to the Iranians, or the Iraqis or 11 someone. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I didn't know that 14 he had any money. It was like, I want to say it was 15 $12,000 a month, which to me seemed like a fortune. 16 And I said to myself, I found this house, but I don't 17 think you can afford it. He was like, that's 18 ridiculous. Of course I can afford, and he rented 19 it. 20 And that house came with -- it was a State 21 Department house, because it was -- I think that was 22 under sequestration or whatever it was. 23 And I -- I put it back together, but there 24 were certain rules, you couldn't paint, because it 25 had to go back and he gave it back to the country MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 20 1 then. 2 So he had this house and I had moved into 3 a 10 foot by 10 foot apartment, because all of our 4 stuff had been either lost or frozen or -- or 5 whatever. 6 So he became, in this moment, my life 7 line, really, because I was -- everything was --felt 8 very similar to this moment, if that makes sense. 9 Anyway, so but I had no key to his house. 10 I had no free access to his house. And in the entire 11 time that he lived there, which was I believe until, 12 the beginning of 1996, I never slept a single night 13 in that house. Never ever. Not one. 14 TODD BLANCHE: But you -- so you -- you -- 15 you said a minute ago that the -- that you had slept 16 with him on one occasion, and at the time you 17 remember thinking, you know, that this meant you were 18 in a relationship, but then it didn't -- you really 19 were not in that type of relationship. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I thought -- 21 TODD BLANCHE: Did that change over -- 22 between '91 and '92 or whatever and -- and -- and 23 years forward? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I did travel with 25 him a lot. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 21 1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I would go to his 3 houses in Palm Beach. He only had that house 4 actually in -- no, that's not true. He had the house 5 in Palm Beach and he had a house in Ohio. 6 TODD BLANCHE: In where? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Ohio. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he had the house 10 in Ohio because of his business relationship with 11 Mr. Wexner. And he had a -- and I had to go and 12 decorate and put that house together. When we 13 traveled together, we stayed in the same bed, but not 14 in -- but I didn't -- 15 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. It's okay, talk. 16 So you -- you stayed -- so when you would 17 travel with him to his houses in Palm Beach, Ohio, or 18 even just traveling, if -- if -- if it was just 19 traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed. 20 So sleep in the same bed with him. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Epstein told me that 24 he had a heart condition. 25 DAVID MARKUS: A what? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 22 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Heart condition. 2 DAVID MARKUS: Heart condition. 3 TODD BLANCHE: A heart condition. Okay. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Which meant that he 5 didn't have intercourse a lot, which suited me fine, 6 because I actually do have a medical condition, which 7 precludes me having a lot of intercourse. 8 TODD BLANCHE: So what -- what was your 9 understanding of his heart condition and why that 10 prevented him from having intercourse regularly? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know. I mean, 12 he liked other forms of sexual activities. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Well, let's come back. 14 We're going to obviously spend some 15 time -- a lot of time on the actual conduct he was 16 accused of. So we'll -- 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 18 TODD BLANCHE: -- we'll -- we'll come back 19 to that. So pick up where you -- where you were 20 talking about you traveling around with him, he 21 rented the New York, former Iranian House -- 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Iranian, there you go. 23 Yeah. 24 TODD BLANCHE: -- until around '96. At 25 that time, you -- I believe you said that he was MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 23 1 basically your life, like you were with him pretty 2 regularly. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I -- no. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I never was with 6 him regularly. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is one of those 9 misnomers. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, at the 12 beginning I did see more of him, but I worked in his 13 office. So I would go to the office and I would see 14 him, and I would count in my head when I would see 15 him. I would count that I would -- that would be a 16 day that I would see him. But I didn't -- I never, 17 ever stayed with him. 18 I believe certainly until '93 or '94, what 19 I didn't know was that I think he was still with his 20 actual girlfriend who was Eva Andersson, who became 21 Eva Dubin. They had been together, my understanding, 22 I think about 10 years. I'm not sure, but that's 23 what I think, 10 years. 24 And I had understood from my girlfriend 25 initially, that they weren't together and Epstein MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 24 1 himself had told me that they were not together. But 2 I don't -- I don't think that was true. In fact, I 3 know it's not true. So they were still together, up 4 until, I think '94, when at some point, in that 5 period of time, Eva met Glenn Dubin and they got 6 married, I think in '94. 7 I don't remember when they got married, 8 but her, she was his best friend and his everything, 9 he told me that he always wished that he had married 10 her and had a child with her. 11 And I know that they -- she was family for 12 him for his whole life. And I think even -- I'm not 13 sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is 14 true or not. When he came from -- back from Paris 15 and you arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the 16 plane. 17 Now, I think that either I read it in the 18 -- in the discovery that I received, or I saw it 19 somewhere. But even if she wasn't on the plane, 20 there must have been some email communication where 21 she was in Paris at the same time and going to fly 22 back. 23 One or the other, I don't know which one 24 is the correct version of that. But so they were 25 still obviously very close and remained throughout MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 25 1 the time. In fact, he -- he was-- still saw her a 2 lot. 3 And so I also know now, which I didn't 4 know at the time, was that he saw lots of other 5 women. And I know that now, because I can see -- I 6 can see it from the flight logs and I know it now 7 because I can see from the emails. 8 TODD BLANCHE: So, you know from the 9 case -- 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, not from -- 11 TODD BLANCHE: -- that what happened. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I didn't know -- 13 TODD BLANCHE: You didn't know that along 14 the way. 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I contemporaneously, I 16 absolutely did not know. 17 TODD BLANCHE: So, okay -- so just -- and 18 we're going to spend time on everything you're 19 talking about, but just to kind of close out the big 20 picture of your relationship. 21 So we're now in the late '90s, continue on 22 with, again, staying high level to the extent you 23 can, about your relationship with him. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So after -- so my 25 responsibilities increased with each acquisition that MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 26 1 he had and each new project. So I believe the first 2 thing that he purchased after was the ranch in 3 New Mexico. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And so what he had 6 tasked me with up until that, and I think that was 7 purchased in '94, if I'm right. So he had tasked me, 8 one of the things that we did was visit, in my mind, 9 I say every state, but it wouldn't have been every 10 state, but many states, to go look at real estate 11 property. 12 And so I know we went to Montana. I know 13 we went to Utah and it was -- it was to go look at 14 real estate. It was fun, to be honest. 15 And then I arranged for us to go to 16 New Mexico and he just loved New Mexico. And then I 17 don't remember how the ranch happened. I don't 18 remember that now, it's lost. And then he ended up 19 buying the ranch. 20 And I think, if I'm right, it came from -- 21 well, the Kings who may have been the governor, I -- 22 you know, bought the ranch. And then I had to deal 23 with that. Dealing with that was the extent of it. 24 The way that I thought of myself, or the 25 way that I think is the best way to explain how I MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 27 1 view my role, was as a general manager. Because each 2 property, to me was like a -- a hotel. 3 So the ranch was very challenging, because 4 not only that, but it had BLM land, so to help 5 maintain your BLM, you have to have cattle and I love 6 animals. 7 And so the first thing, horses. And so I 8 wanted it, if you're going to have a ranch, I like 9 authenticity. And so I don't think you should have a 10 ranch if you're not going to have the things that 11 make it special. 12 TODD BLANCHE: So were you -- were you 13 paid by him along the way -- 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- 15 TODD BLANCHE: -- during this time? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I became -- I became 17 salaried at some point. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I -- my memory is 20 that I got paid $25,000 a year to begin with. That's 21 my memory. I may be wrong. And then with each -- as 22 it became obvious, because I kept thinking I was 23 going to go home; home being England. And -- but 24 it -- 25 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- and financially, MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 28 1 you were not relying on him, the -- the $25,000 or 2 whatever amount you were paid, were you relying on 3 that money to live and his generosity to live or did 4 you have your own -- your own money. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So there's a -- 6 TODD BLANCHE: And again, I -- I want to 7 just make sure we're talking about that. Like 8 keeping it between like the late '90s, you know, 9 maybe, I guess into a little of the 2000s. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just want to hit 11 something on the head right now. There's a 12 tremendous amount of reporting that said that I had a 13 -- 14 LEAH SAFFIAN: A trust fund. 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. A trust 16 fund. I have never had a trust fund, at any time. 17 DAVID MARKUS: So how did you live, did 18 you live with -- with -- I mean, $25,000 is not 19 enough to live on. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. So I had -- during 21 this period of time, the secret -- secret, the 22 Serious Fraud Squad had come to see me, in relation 23 to my father's passing, and to establish whether I 24 had been involved in any way with his business or 25 with any shenanigans. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 29 1 I think -- I've told this story many 2 times, so I don't know if it's now somewhat 3 apocryphal, but I'll tell you what it -- my memory 4 is. 5 So I received a letter from them that said 6 about my business, and my memory may be apocryphal, 7 there was a PS that said (unintelligible), I had 8 nothing. There was no -- I was never involved in any 9 of his business, whatever, so I was free. 10 TODD BLANCHE: And were you -- so, but 11 your -- you know, obviously your -- your father and 12 your family had a lot of businesses. Did -- is it 13 because the money, whatever money or whatever equity 14 was in the businesses, just stayed with your other 15 family members? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, there was no 17 money. So my father was never attached to money. He 18 was born a peasant, a real one. Dirt floor, no 19 shoes, no clothes -- some clothes, but not, you know, 20 sorry, I don't mean to say -- nothing. 21 And he never -- he was never into that. I 22 mean, there were things that he had his 23 extravagances, he loved his boat and his plane. So 24 obviously you need money for that. But there was no, 25 nothing else. And there was not a single penny that MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 30 1 came to any of us, at any time, ever. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so when you 3 are talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the 4 '90s, you -- you're -- you're not -- you -- you're 5 very different financially. You -- you're very 6 different financially positioned than he is -- 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely. 8 TODD BLANCHE: -- meaning he's giving you 9 money, he's paying for your -- when you fly, he -- I 10 assume pays for your flights. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay. So you -- you 13 -- I interrupted you when you were saying how you 14 were functioning as a general manager. You helped 15 with the New Mexico ranch. 16 So did -- did your role with him continue 17 like that for many years or for how long? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I continued -- in 19 2000 -- well, in -- by 1999, our relationship had 20 foundered. In -- 21 TODD BLANCHE: Why? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- well, two 23 reasons: We were never sleeping together again. So 24 we stopped having sexual relations in 1999. Not full 25 sex. Sorry, just to be clear. Didn't mean that we MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 31 1 didn't still share a bed bedroom sometimes or 2 whatever. He had another girlfriend. 3 TODD BLANCHE: He had what? 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Other girlfriends. I 5 definitively knew that it was over after 9/11, 6 actually, because we were both in New York and I 7 don't know, were you in New York on 9/11? I mean, 8 9/11 ... 9 And it was a scary time if you were in New 10 York. You didn't know, I didn't know, nobody knew 11 what was going on. And he was in 71st Street and I 12 was in 65th Street, my house. 13 And he wouldn't see me at all. Asked me, 14 his mum, who I'm very close to, who's in hospital at 15 Lennox Hill, just asked me to look after her. And 16 then I knew, as anyone did at that time, if you're 17 not going to be there for someone in 9/11, you're 18 never going to be there. So for me, that was the 19 line's end. And he had another English girlfriend 20 actually, from 2000. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Are you, though, still on 22 his -- are you still being paid by him at this point? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so go ahead. 25 So what -- what -- at that point, when you MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 32 1 say you realized kind of it was over? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I mean, I'm 3 talking about the -- the -- I had had, there was a -- 4 I had wanted to get married and have children. 5 And Epstein had encouraged me to believe 6 that that would -- I don't know about the -- 7 certainly by the mid late '90s, I knew the marriage 8 part was never going to happen. I had believed that 9 maybe in '96, '97, '98 maybe, but then I realized it 10 wasn't that. But I did think that we might have a 11 child, which is what I had really wanted. And I 12 realized -- 13 TODD BLANCHE: So -- so -- okay. So what 14 happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your 15 relationship with him? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So -- 17 TODD BLANCHE: Give or take, 2001. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we stopped having 19 physicality. I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't 20 friends. I certainly did stay, sometimes, in his 21 room. I mean, friends with benefits, if you will, 22 just not sex. Sorry. 23 And I started dating. 24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I met someone that MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 33 1 I fell very much in love with in 2003. His name was 2 Ted Waitt. Ted Waitt, you may know as the founder of 3 Gateway, the computers. And we had an amazing 4 relationship that ended in -- went on until 2010, I 5 think. And I was with Ted from that time. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Did you meet him through 7 Mr. Epstein? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Well, indirectly, 9 I suppose you could say so. No, they'd never met. I 10 was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't -- I 11 was with President Clinton. President Clinton was my 12 friend, not Epstein's friend. 13 And Epstein had flown him and there was a 14 dinner and Ted came to the dinner. So I guess, 15 indirectly, through Mr. Epstein, because it was with 16 his plane, but I'd have been there anyway without 17 him. I had -- was not the -- 18 DAVID MARKUS: Was Epstein on the plane 19 when you guys flew? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: On that trip, yes. 21 Well, yes. They -- that, yes. 22 TODD BLANCHE: So when you say the -- the 23 dinner was -- was where? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Hong Kong. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And so the -- and MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 34 1 you had flown over with -- so who was on the plane 2 for that trip? I don't mean everybody. 3 When you said, so Mr. Epstein was on the 4 plane? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 6 TODD BLANCHE: You were on the plane? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Who else, that you can 9 remember? I'm not, you know, you only remember what 10 you remember. 11 DAVID MARKUS: Was President Clinton on 12 the plane? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Clinton. He would've 14 -- he would've had his guy, Doug Vance, maybe Jason 15 Cooper, maybe the two. 16 TODD BLANCHE: And you -- and so why -- 17 so -- so how do you meet -- so -- so why did you say 18 that's when you met him and that you met him through 19 Clinton? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, it was a -- I 21 don't think Ted would've been there, had it not been 22 a -- it was a President Clinton dinner and Ted came 23 to be with President Clinton -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: I see. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not to be with MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 35 1 Mr. Epstein. Does that make sense? 2 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's why I say that. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you're -- you're, 5 so in the time that you're dating, that you're with 6 him to 2009, are you still working for Mr. Epstein 7 during that time? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So his -- so it'd be 9 true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard, he tried 10 very hard to -- to keep me to working for him, 11 because this is a complex operator. 12 I'm not talking about anything untoward, 13 just the sheer size of the projects. I'm talking the 14 construction projects, the houses, the staff. It's 15 a -- it's a really significant job. And I ran all 16 the properties, the staff in the properties, the 17 management of the properties that -- and all the 18 construction. 19 And we're talking tens of millions of 20 dollars for the island alone. I can't remember what 21 the budget was for the construction on any given 22 year, it's gone. 23 But it -- it was -- these are very 24 significant projects. And so that was what I did. 25 And I managed the budgets. Well, not, I didn't MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 36 1 manage the budgets, I oversaw the budgets. So I 2 would just make sure that if you said you bought an 3 air conditioning part, I saw an air conditioning part 4 and I could call the island manager. 5 Did you receive the Carrier, whatever, you 6 know. 7 TODD BLANCHE: When did Mr. Epstein 8 purchase the island? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say '96 or 10 '97, something like that. 11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So we're going to 12 come back and spend more time on the money with -- 13 with respect to Mr. Epstein and -- and his wealth. 14 But just so we can finish this, so in 15 2009, you end your relationship with Ted. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2009, 2010. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't remember if it 19 was '10. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So in that time 21 period, what happens next with -- as far as your 22 relationship with Mr. Epstein? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't have one with 24 him. 25 TODD BLANCHE: You don't have one with MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 37 1 him, like you don't see him or it's just a different 2 relationship? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did see -- I maybe 4 saw him once or twice, maybe even three times. I 5 certainly went to his house once, for sure, maybe 6 twice. But I was not seeing him. 7 The only time that I was in touch with him 8 was when the things happened. Like things, I mean, 9 in the press that affected me or when the CVRA case 10 was filed and there was like rubbish that went out, 11 because I needed information. 12 Because I didn't know -- I didn't know 13 anything about what was happening and I needed his 14 help. A, to under- -- I -- I-- well, that doesn't 15 sound right. Let me rephrase that. I don't mean his 16 help. I meant to have answers, so that I had an 17 ability to defend myself, that's what I'm talking 18 about. I'm not talking any- -- 19 TODD BLANCHE: So when does that 20 relationship change? So -- so you're working -- you 21 talked about when your -- the physical relationship 22 stopped and then you're still working for him, or 23 with him managing his properties and being -- serving 24 as like a general manager. 25 You then start your own relationship with MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 38 1 another individual from -- with Ted from 2003 till 2 2009 or '10. At what point in that whole period is 3 there like more of a break, where you're no longer 4 acting as his general manager? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- I wanted to 6 have a full break when I started dating Ted. And he 7 was clever. I -- I -- I suppose it would be true to 8 say that I sort of viewed Mr. Epstein, at that point, 9 as sort of family, if you will. Like someone I could 10 rely on. 11 And I should have had more confidence in 12 myself. I can see that now. But at the time, given 13 everything that had happened in my life, I thought 14 that it would -- and I saw how he was with other 15 people like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable 16 with him, and I thought this would be -- and he 17 always said, I was like family. 18 So he worked hard to make -- maintain a 19 relationship with me. He was generous with me. He 20 let me use the plane, for instance, which was very 21 generous, he would check in with my mum. He did 22 things that were meaningful to me in that time. 23 And then, it may still not have worked, 24 but that his -- his mother, Paula, had been in a very 25 serious car crash. And I -- she had become sort of MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 39 1 like a -- a surrogate mother for me, sort of, because 2 my mum wasn't there. I could -- I could look after 3 her the way that I would -- sorry. 4 TODD BLANCHE: It's all right. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The way that I 6 would've liked to look after my own mum. So I became 7 very close to his mother. 8 And she had been in a car crash and in 9 2004, I believe it -- it may have been 2005, I -- I 10 don't recall exactly. She took a -- her health took 11 a serious decline. And Epstein called me and asked 12 me if I could look after her. And by looking after 13 her, that meant organizing her doctors, making sure 14 she had new clothes, making sure her house was clean. 15 DAVID MARKUS: Where was she? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She lived in -- in a 17 retirement establishment in -- outside of Palm Beach, 18 outside of -- its West Palm. I want -- I was going 19 to say something like the Golden Girls, but it's not 20 called that. I just don't remember what it's called. 21 But it was an old age -- it was a retirement home, if 22 you will. 23 DAVID MARKUS: Todd, I don't know, we've 24 been going for maybe about an hour now. 25 Do you think -- is this a good time to -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 40 1 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah -- yeah. So we'll 2 take a -- we'll take a break. 3 DAVID MARKUS: Yep. 4 SPENCER HORN: All right. So we're going 5 to take a break, the time is 10:56. 6 (Break at 10:56 a.m. to 11:07 a.m.) 7 SPENCER HORN: We're continuing the 8 proffer interview with Ms. Maxwell. The time is 9 11:07 a.m., on Thursday, July 24th. 10 TODD BLANCHE: All right. So just picking 11 up where we just stopped. So -- so you -- you have 12 basically a break. Well, not a break, that's the 13 wrong word, but your -- your relationship with 14 Mr. Maxwell [sic] -- professional and other changes 15 in 2003, '04? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. I mean, and 17 over the time that I stay with Ted, the more time I'm 18 with Ted, the more distance I have with him. And 19 then when the arrest -- well, let's go back. 20 When he -- whatever -- whatever happened 21 in 2005 and he became arrested in 2006. 22 TODD BLANCHE: So when he's charged and 23 arrested in what we'll call the Florida 24 Investigations, that's what you're talking about? 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I am. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 41 1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Go ahead. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I had -- I was not 3 in -- well -- 4 TODD BLANCHE: Well, were you part of that 5 investigation? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did law enforcement 8 ever talk to you as part of that? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Did you, like, the feds 11 never talked to you -- 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 13 TODD BLANCHE: -- the FBI never talked to 14 you? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never even received 18 a phone call. 19 TODD BLANCHE: -- did you -- so you didn't 20 receive a subpoena? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Did the state law 23 enforcement ever reach out to you? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 25 TODD BLANCHE: As far as you know, did the MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 42 1 government, either state or federal, subpoena your 2 bank records or subpoena anything from your financial 3 life, during that time? During the -- that time? 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Not as far as I'm 5 aware. Now, if they did, I don't know it and I have 6 -- I have no idea about that, to be honest. But I'm 7 -- I'm not aware of it and I would say no, but maybe 8 you guys do things that I don't know. 9 TODD BLANCHE: So how did -- how did you 10 learn of that case? When Mr. Epstein was arrested, 11 or did you know that something was happening before 12 then? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The -- the first thing 14 I knew was he had told me he was deciding to 15 redecorate the house in Palm Beach. It didn't 16 surprise me, it was like a rolling situation. 17 TODD BLANCHE: And, but by that time are 18 you doing -- are you -- like he tells you because he 19 wants your help or your relationship changed by this 20 time where you were no longer kind of acting his -- 21 as his general manager? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I was -- I was 23 still around. 24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wasn't gone. I was MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 43 1 with Ted. I was traveling. I wasn't daily -- if you 2 would ask me where he was in any given time, I'm not 3 sure I would've known then. I mean, it was, I -- I 4 felt like I suppose the relationship moved into sort 5 of like a long-term friend-family, you know, like -- 6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- like I felt he had 8 with Eva, if I'm honest. 9 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. So -- so he 10 says to you he's going to redecorate the Palm Beach 11 house. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He -- he asked me 13 specifically which decorator he thinks I -- he should 14 use, because I had a lot of contacts with decorators 15 and he was not very good with people. He was useless 16 at maintaining relationships with people who worked 17 for him, I'm not. So anyways, I recommended -- I 18 think I recommended. I can't be a hundred percent 19 sure, because it's been a long time, but I think I 20 recommended Mark Zeff at that time. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Who? 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mark Zeff -- 23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I believe. And I 25 don't know why. I -- I don't remember. That's all MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 44 1 lost to time. But anyway, at some point, I think his 2 mother had died now. I can't remember the timing of 3 all of that either. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I ended up in Palm 6 Beach and he had asked me to come and look at the 7 swatches or whatever he was doing, because they had 8 laid it all out over the house and various things, 9 and I think he'd asked for my opinion. That's my 10 memory of this. 11 It may also be that Ted and I were going 12 to Palm Beach, because Ted had a golf match or 13 something. There was a reason I was in Palm Beach. 14 It wasn't solely -- I don't -- maybe that's not true 15 either. I don't know. So I -- 16 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- there's a, you 18 know, sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was 19 there. I don't know if that's part of that time -- 20 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead -- go ahead. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- or Ted went there 22 and left me. I don't know, something. 23 Anyway, I was there. No. That's not how 24 that went either. No. Anyway, at some point in that 25 time, I saw all the swatches, at some point in 2005, MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 45 1 I think that was. And then I believe, or I don't 2 remember. I -- I think I got a phone call actually. 3 I wasn't in Palm Beach. I think I got a phone call 4 that there was a police at his house or something. 5 There was a -- 6 TODD BLANCHE: And would you have gotten a 7 phone call from him or you think you were just told 8 by somebody that knew that it had happened or don't 9 -- or don't you remember? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Definitely not him. 11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it would've 13 been the houseman. 14 TODD BLANCHE: So when that happens, 15 whenever it was, that's kind of the first time you 16 know that Mr. Epstein's being investigated for -- 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I didn't even 18 know what that -- I didn't even understand. 19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't have a 21 context for that. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was like, I didn't 24 even know -- I -- I didn't know. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So after -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 46 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't -- I 2 didn't -- I didn't -- I'm not sure even what I 3 thought. I was like, that's weird. 4 TODD BLANCHE: -- so after he -- after you 5 find out about it, what happens with your 6 relationship with him? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I asked him. I asked 8 him what was going on -- 9 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and he said, I -- 11 I -- not to worry. Nothing, nothing, taking care. 12 Don't worry about it (indiscernible) and then it all 13 went quiet. I didn't -- he didn't say, he didn't 14 share. I wasn't part of it at all. I was off with 15 Ted and I really just -- 16 TODD BLANCHE: Did he tell you -- well, 17 why don't we come back to more specifics around that 18 time period in a few minutes -- 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 20 TODD BLANCHE: -- I want to just finish 21 this opening part. 22 So that case goes on, ultimately it ends. 23 What -- what -- what was your relationship like with 24 him during that case, when he goes, you know, when 25 he -- when he was sentenced. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 47 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked -- he -- he 2 -- he told me, he said, "Listen. I'm going to jail." 3 I was like, "Okay." And he goes, "I would like you 4 to stay on board to manage the properties, the 5 animals, this and that, and just stay put and I'll 6 continue to pay you. In case there's any emergency, 7 I don't trust anyone." And I was like, "Okay." 8 TODD BLANCHE: Well, when you said 9 continue to pay, had he con--- has he -- 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He had never stopped 11 paying me. 12 TODD BLANCHE: He never stopped paying 13 you. So even when your relationship changes, you're 14 getting -- does the amount increase from the $25,000 15 or so a year from the beginning? Like how much are 16 you getting paid yearly? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it ended -- at 18 the time, well, we had different payment structures 19 and I'm happy to explain how that was, but I think 20 salary wise, if I'm right, it ended at around a 21 quarter of a million a year. 22 TODD BLANCHE: How much? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Quarter of a million. 24 $250,000. 25 TODD BLANCHE: And when -- and when did it MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 48 1 end? When was that that it stopped? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2008, or '09. 3 TODD BLANCHE: So -- 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: '09. When did he come 5 out of jail? Whenever he came out of jail. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So, and over the 7 years, it increased from what you said was you 8 thought about $25,000 to $250,000. That's between 9 like '90, early '90s until 2009 or '10, whenever he 10 stopped; is that right? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes -- yes. 12 TODD BLANCHE: And how were you paid? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: W2. 14 TODD BLANCHE: W2 from which -- from what 15 company? Or do you -- 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He, like I -- he just 17 moved me around over to this company, that, I didn't 18 care -- 19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and I didn't care 21 and I didn't think that -- I didn't understand any 22 rhyme or reason, it doesn't, I just, you know, 23 whatever -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- so maybe -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 49 1 TODD BLANCHE: -- so when he's going to go 2 to jail, he says, "Can you stay around and manage 3 everything." 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. 5 TODD BLANCHE: And do you do that? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And then -- and then 8 we'll come back to that. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not manage 10 everything, no. I mean there are other people at 11 this point. My specific role then was very, very 12 diminished. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I reviewed the bill 15 structure that came from the constructions, that were 16 still made, the island -- 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and wherever else I 19 was going, Paris at this point, because I speak 20 French, I'm fluent in French. 21 And also my relationship with the French 22 decorator was critical to him. And in the French 23 component part of -- of that aspect, that was really 24 vital and so you would have had to find someone who 25 was -- well, actually, and the Spanish trilingual, MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 50 1 you would've had to find someone who was trilingual 2 to -- and that he trusted -- 3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- to manage, not 5 steal from him. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- so when he gets 7 out of jail, between that time 2009 or '10, and 2019, 8 what's your relationship like with -- with 9 Mr. Epstein? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Almost nonexistent. 11 TODD BLANCHE: Why? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I had just moved 13 on and I just didn't want to have anything to -- I 14 didn't want the drama. I didn't want to be 15 associated with ... 16 TODD BLANCHE: So do you recall -- when 17 you say "almost non-existent," does that mean -- 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It doesn't mean it -- 19 TODD BLANCHE: -- was it some phone calls, 20 some visits -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I definitely. 22 TODD BLANCHE: -- some trips, or what does 23 it mean? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I -- I don't -- I 25 don't think there were any trips. Oh, I don't -- I MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 51 1 don't think so. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Where were you living 3 during that time period? Or was it -- 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Which time period? 5 TODD BLANCHE: Between 2009, '10 and 2019? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was back in 7 New York. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you had no -- so 9 when you -- so -- so your -- you had phone calls with 10 him on occasion? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Well, I 12 certainly did when it -- whenever there was any legal 13 drama or any like, serious press attention, I always 14 called him to try and find out what was going on. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay. And then -- 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I did email him at 17 that time for those types of details. It was like, 18 what do I do? What, I mean, I was like ... 19 TODD BLANCHE: And -- and then when he's 20 charged in New York federally -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 22 TODD BLANCHE: -- how did you learn about 23 that case? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In the press. 25 TODD BLANCHE: And had you, as far as you MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 52 1 know, been contacted by law enforcement before his 2 arrest? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I wasn't in an 4 indictment. 5 TODD BLANCHE: No. I know that, but even 6 as a witness or -- or asking you if you would give 7 documents or materials? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had never -- up 9 until he -- up until when my lawyers said that, I 10 don't even know. I -- I had no knowledge of them 11 being interested in me, honestly. I don't -- I want 12 to say until he had died. 13 Now I know that my lawyers were in touch 14 with the Southern District of New York at some point 15 after his arrest. I'm pretty sure that had to have 16 happened, right -- 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- but I -- my 19 understanding is that they had not shown any 20 interest. I know my lawyers went to see them once, I 21 believe, and -- 22 TODD BLANCHE: Went to see him meaning 23 Mr. Epstein? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, them. So Southern 25 District of New York. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 53 1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. The Southern 2 District of New York. Okay. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. And that they 4 had been in regular, in touch with him and -- 5 TODD BLANCHE: But now you're talking 6 about after Mr. Epstein died or are you talking about 7 before he died? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think, I -- 9 TODD BLANCHE: If you can remember. 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Easily verifiable. I 11 -- my memory is that they were in touch with him when 12 he was arrested. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if 15 anything happened until after his death, then after 16 that. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think they saw 19 them -- met with them, Southern District of New York 20 I'm talking about now, until after he died. I know 21 that they were in regular telephone contact with them 22 and that my lawyers believed that they had been told 23 that there was no interest in me -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and were absolutely MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 54 1 stunned when I was arrested. But maybe stunned is 2 too big a word, but surprised. I certainly was. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So let's -- okay. 4 So that's -- that's -- was a long description of -- 5 of what was a very long life and that was very 6 helpful. So I want to go back and talk more 7 specifically now about particular areas, and, but 8 that was a -- a very helpful kind of foundation 9 for -- for us. 10 The first -- the first thing I want to 11 talk about, you talked about earlier on, about 12 Mr. Epstein's financial success. What -- you know, 13 do you know how he -- when you first meet him, at 14 some point you say, "I got this place for you to 15 rent, you can't afford it." And he laughs at you and 16 says, "Yes. I can." 17 What did you learn about his wealth and 18 how he was -- and how he accumulated his money? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can tell you what he 20 told me. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- I know that he 23 was hired from working at a private school whose name 24 eludes me at this point. 25 LEAH SAFFIAN: Dalton. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 55 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Dalton. He was 2 working at Dalton, he was a math teacher. And he 3 met, I think it was Ace, I'm not sure. He met 4 someone from Bear who hired him, because he was very 5 good at math. And I believe that he then worked on 6 creating a trading of, oh, my gosh. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Just describe it. It's 8 okay. Go ahead. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He came -- came up 10 with some new type of trading system. Not -- not a 11 system so much, but as a -- as a -- as a --as 12 vehicle. A trading vehicle. 13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm just escaping 15 right now. 16 TODD BLANCHE: And this is while -- while 17 he was working at -- at Bear Stearns? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: At Bear Stearns. Yes. 19 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. Okay. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And, well -- 21 TODD BLANCHE: And was this before you met 22 him? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 24 TODD BLANCHE: So this is what he told 25 you. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 56 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 2 TODD BLANCHE: What you learned? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. This is what he 4 told me -- 5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- himself. 7 TODD BLANCHE: And so -- and then 8 eventually he starts a financial firm? Do you know 9 that to be true or no? J. Epstein & Company. You 10 ever heard of that? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it's, yeah. 12 Yes. So hang on a minute. So I -- this I did not 13 know, but this I have subsequently learned -- 14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- is that he had some 16 problem or some issue at Bear Stearns and there was 17 some, I don't know, disagreement. He wasn't fired, 18 because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace 19 and with Jimmy, at least by the time I met him, but 20 they were working with him and he ran -- he had cli- 21 -- money at Bear Stearns, and -- 22 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- his money, his 24 client's money. We'll -- I'll come to that. 25 But he started -- he told me himself that MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 57 1 he started a business where he looked for stolen 2 money. So if somebody -- let's see. I'm trying to 3 think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can't 4 think of anything, I've been with -- not great -- 5 I'll -- I'll give it to you. 6 So let's say you have El Chapo, oh God, I 7 don't know where he comes from. But anyway, we've 8 got El Chapo. And El Chapo's laundering money or 9 still -- he's working with the Sinaloa Cartel and he 10 steals money from the Sinaloa Cartel and he moves it 11 to wherever. So he's got stolen money from the 12 Sinaloa, goes to it. This didn't happen. I'm just 13 -- 14 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah -- yeah. I 15 understand. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- just coming up with 17 something in my head. And the Sinaloa says to 18 Epstein, "Can you track down my billion dollars that, 19 the car- -- the other cartel stole from me?" And 20 Epstein will go and find the billion dollars and will 21 take a portion of the money that was stolen at a fee 22 and give back the remainder. That would be on a 23 percentage basis. 24 TODD BLANCHE: No. But like what you just 25 described, which I appreciate what you said, a MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 58 1 hypothetical -- 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The -- the -- please, 3 that was completely hypothetical. 4 TODD BLANCHE: -- but that -- but that 5 would involve like, so two kind of drug cartels 6 stealing from each other. 7 Practically speaking, did -- he was a -- 8 more of a businessman, correct? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So here's how I think 10 that started, is that he had a girlfriend. It was 11 always you -- you -- always to the girls. I guess 12 there was a girl whose name will come back to me, 13 maybe not, whilst we're here, but I don't know, 14 maybe. There's a woman -- 15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- there's always a 17 woman. And he -- she was the daughter of a 18 billionaire, for instance. And that billionaire, 19 whoever his --whatever his name was, had had some 20 money stolen. And for some reason this woman 21 introduced Jeffrey, and Jeffrey, I think that's how 22 that business started. That's what I remember. 23 TODD BLANCHE: And is that something he 24 told you about or something that happened while you 25 knew him? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 59 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Something he told 2 me before I met him. 3 TODD BLANCHE: And so when you meet him 4 and -- and once you're part of his life in the early 5 to mid '90s, what is he doing to make money that you 6 see? He -- does he have clients? Does he have rich 7 clients? Does he have famous clients? And -- and 8 how -- and what -- if he does have clients, what 9 service is he providing them? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He does have -- well, 11 obviously there's the one very famous client that 12 everybody talks about, which is Les Wexner. That was 13 a very important client to him. And he -- I think 14 it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine -- 15 what I imagine, know -- would I know to be true about 16 what he managed for Les. And there's some bits that 17 I'll be improvising -- 18 TODD BLANCHE: Yep. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I -- 20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I want to just make 22 you understand, I was not part of Epstein's business 23 world, except tangentially and obviously. So what 24 I'm talking about is I -- what I observed or what I 25 overheard or what I saw within the business, but I MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 60 1 wasn't responsible for any of the client's money or 2 anything like that. So it's separate. 3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah. I understand. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So with Les, for 7 instance, it was really all encompassing. It could 8 go from the structure of the business. So he 9 would -- he structured or restructured The Limited. 10 I know that, and I'll come back to that 11 because I also traveled with him and Les, and I was 12 in business meetings with them on the plane when they 13 were there. So I could observe and I could hear some 14 of this. 15 And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly 16 business sophisticated, I'm sophisticated enough to 17 be able to at least have some knowledge of what was 18 happening. 19 All right. So then he restructured the 20 business. He restructured his entire personal 21 finances, and would also handle all of the investment 22 strategy. I don't know if it was -- if it was a 23 hundred percent -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Wexner is what you're 25 saying? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 61 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. Yes. All -- 2 this is all Wexner I'm talking about now. 3 So let's say you had a billion dollars to 4 invest. So you would, you know, in people's normal 5 investment portfolios, you would have, you know, some 6 T-bonds and this and that, but Epstein's strategies 7 would be much more sophisticated than that. 8 TODD BLANCHE: And so just staying with 9 Mr. Wexner. Does -- from what you heard or saw, is 10 Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages? Like so -- 11 so there would be a deal and he would be paid or 12 was -- did you understand it to be like a flat fee? 13 Was he a business partner? Like how did you 14 understand him to be paid? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was more ? 16 la carte. So let's say this is a conversation I 17 actually -- Epstein told me. So all -- illustrated 18 for me, said if I saved someone $5 billion, he would 19 take a flat percentage of that $5 billion. He 20 wouldn't have $5 billion back, and he would take -- 21 TODD BLANCHE: When you say you think 22 that, is that because you heard him talking about 23 that or you -- you ... 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It would be a 25 combination of both. He certainly told me that and I MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 62 1 heard him talk to people like that. I couldn't -- 2 sorry. 3 TODD BLANCHE: No -- no. Go ahead. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- was there -- did -- 6 did he give -- did Mr. Wexner gift a property in 7 New York to Mr. Epstein? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we're talking about 9 71st Street. So I don't know what the business deal 10 was, because, again, I'm not part of his business 11 thing, but I think what happened would be that, let's 12 say Les owed him in, theoretically, for his services, 13 $100 million or whatever it was. He could have 14 traded that against the property. 15 TODD BLANCHE: But do you know that that 16 happened or that's -- are you -- are you kind of -- 17 do you remember whether there was conversations about 18 that or are you just thinking that could be one way 19 that it happened? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not sure. And I'm 21 not trying to be -- I just don't remember if that's 22 something I know or if that's something that I 23 remember, or if it's something that I subsequently 24 know. I believe -- I believe that to be what 25 happened, but I don't want to tell you that I have -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 63 1 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that make sense? 3 TODD BLANCHE: Did Mr. Wexner and 4 Mr. Epstein -- are you aware of they -- of their 5 falling out that they ultimately had? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think -- I wasn't 7 there and I don't know how it happened. I only know 8 what Les has said in the press. 9 TODD BLANCHE: So you only know about 10 their, you know, their falling out or whatever you 11 want to call it, from what you've kind of read, not 12 from any firsthand knowledge? You did -- you weren't 13 there, you weren't part of that? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. 15 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know somebody named 16 Steven Hoffenberg? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Only from the press. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And so you don't 19 know anything about whatever business relationship 20 they may have had, Mr. Epstein -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never spoke about him, 22 never mentioned it. I -- I only learned about that, 23 whatever that is, even -- I don't even know what the 24 truth is of that story, from the press. 25 TODD BLANCHE: How about Leon Black? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 64 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I did meet Leon. 2 I do know Leon. 3 TODD BLANCHE: When do you remember -- and 4 again, I know we're talking about a very long time 5 ago, but do you remember approximately when you met 6 him? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I could have met Leon, 8 not really -- so I might have met him, nothing to do, 9 because Leon Black is very good friends with other 10 friends of mine. I would've met him, when I say 11 socially, I might have met him. How Leon and Epstein 12 became really good friends, I don't -- I'm not sure. 13 TODD BLANCHE: But not through you, as far 14 as you recall? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Not through me as 16 far as I know. No. I -- in fact, I'm -- I'm sure 17 that's not through me. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know what kind of 19 work Mr. Epstein was doing for Mr. Black over the 20 years? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Same as what he did 22 for Wexner. 23 TODD BLANCHE: So we just talked about two 24 individuals. And again, I know we're talking about 25 a, maybe a 15-year time period or even longer. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 65 1 How many clients like that did Mr. Epstein 2 have? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But why don't I just 4 give you the names that I remember and that's -- 5 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Why won't I just give 7 you the names. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Do you want the names? 10 TODD BLANCHE: Sure. Go ahead. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Elizabeth Johnson -- 12 Johnson & Johnson. 13 TODD BLANCHE: When did -- as far as you 14 know, when did the relationship between Ms. Johnson 15 and Mr. Epstein start? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: '90s. '90 -- I 17 don't -- I -- '95, '96. '90s. 18 TODD BLANCHE: So during the time period? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. We're talking 20 '90s. We're talking when I was there. When I was 21 around. 22 TODD BLANCHE: And how did the 23 relationship start? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know how he 25 became that friendly where he ended up managing her MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 66 1 money, I wasn't there. I mean, he -- I really had a 2 separate life. We really had separate lives -- 3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- except where they 5 synced. 6 TODD BLANCHE: But it wasn't from -- 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It wasn't from me. 8 TODD BLANCHE: -- from you? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. It was not. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And what's your 11 understanding of what Mr. Epstein did for 12 Ms. Johnson? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Same as what he did 14 for Wexner. And when I -- and you have to 15 understand, it -- it went down to, in tiny details. 16 So I remember this -- I remember, this is an actual 17 memory, that he would make the contracts for the 18 maids, for the people who worked in their homes. 19 TODD BLANCHE: So he would assist his 20 clients, at times, with -- you're saying with even 21 small things like contractual relations with -- 22 with -- 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He said no detail was 24 too small, because everything that affected how they 25 lived and how they managed their life, was something MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 67 1 that he felt he was -- if they want, he would be 2 responsible for, to make sure that the contract -- so 3 that if you had to fire someone, it wouldn't come 4 back and sue you or if that -- that sort of ... 5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So Mr. Black, 6 Mr. Werner [sic] -- Ms. Johnson. Who else? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What's the name of the 8 woman from Ohio (inaudible). 9 TODD BLANCHE: Know someone named 10 Jes Staley. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. I do know Jes. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Who's that? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was at Morgan 14 Stanley and at Barclays. 15 TODD BLANCHE: What do -- do you know 16 whether he and Mr. Epstein had a relationship? 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not a -- not a 18 physical one. 19 TODD BLANCHE: Well -- 20 DAVID MARKUS: Business one. 21 TODD BLANCHE: -- I didn't suggest. 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry, I just -- 23 TODD BLANCHE: No. I'm saying a -- a 24 relationship in the broadest sense of word; business, 25 personal -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 68 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 2 TODD BLANCHE: -- both. Okay. 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Both. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And do you know when 5 they met? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- no. I don't 7 know when they met. But you can time it. Well, I 8 don't know that you can. No. I don't know. 9 TODD BLANCHE: So, but what was the nature 10 of their relationship, as far as you know? 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think they were 12 friends and I think that they were business partners. 13 Well, partners, too strong a word, but they were -- 14 they did business together. 15 TODD BLANCHE: So did you -- again, I want 16 to stay focused on the time where you were the most 17 involved in his life, so -- 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The '90s. 19 TODD BLANCHE: -- the early '90s through 20 early 2000s. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the beginning -- 22 beginning of the 2000s, yes. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you -- so we 24 talked about four people, so -- 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There's more. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 69 1 TODD BLANCHE: -- were there more? Okay. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes. There were 3 more. There was a lady whose name I just can't -- 4 can I get my book? Maybe I wrote them down. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Sure. 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: (Indiscernible) 7 Epstein wouldn't really let me meet his clients. 8 TODD BLANCHE: What book are you using? 9 What is that? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wrote some notes for 11 the meeting. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Great. Okay. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Is that alright? 14 TODD BLANCHE: No. That's fine. I just 15 was curious what -- what we're looking at. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, okay. 17 DAVID MARKUS: Not the birthday book. 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's not the birthday 19 book. No. We are going to come to that, I'm sure. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. I wrote 22 down some names because I tried to make -- I just 23 want you to understand my -- my memory's not as good 24 as it was, because when I was in Brooklyn, I was in 25 the SHU for almost two years, and I was on suicide MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 70 1 watch for almost two years, which meant that they 2 woke me up every 15 minutes for the entire time. And 3 it's -- it really did affect my ability to ... 4 TODD BLANCHE: Understand. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 6 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I'm not -- 8 TODD BLANCHE: So you've taken some notes 9 in anticipation -- 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just made some names 11 in -- in advance for this -- 12 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. So go ahead. 13 So -- 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and you're happy to 15 look at them as well, if you want. 16 TODD BLANCHE: No. Go -- go ahead. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Oh, well, funny 18 you say, first two names. One is Wexner, two is 19 Staley, three is Leon Black. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Glenn Dubin was a 22 client. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Who's that? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Eva Dubin's husband. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What was their, I MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 71 1 mean, if you can -- do you know when -- about when 2 that relationship started? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Whenever -- well, 4 wouldn't have been before they got married, for sure. 5 So if you're going to start -- you're going to date 6 that from wherever that was. 7 And then Epstein was heavily involved with 8 Highbridge Capital and the financing or selling of 9 Highbridge to JP Morgan. 10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Go ahead. 11 Eva Dubin. Yep. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. You're only 13 looking for clients, so, all right. There's a 14 woman -- well he -- there's a woman in Ohio. I just 15 can't think of her name, but it will -- I tried to 16 remember it yesterday and I can't. 17 DAVID MARKUS: So this is a good thing. 18 Like, you know, as you think of things, write it 19 down, and if they have any other names, they'll ask 20 you. But you -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Just -- 23 DAVID MARKUS: -- don't -- don't force it 24 out. So -- so you'll have time to think about this, 25 especially today, this afternoon, overnight -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 72 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 2 DAVID MARKUS: -- because we'll probably 3 meet tomorrow. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But you can find them. 5 I mean, if you basically find a billionaire female. 6 TODD BLANCHE: So the woman in Ohio who's 7 wealthy, that you worked with. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And well, you can 9 identify her yourself because she had the largest 10 Klein painting. That was huge. So you can find her, 11 because it'll be in a museum. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So that's her. 14 TODD BLANCHE: And so he -- that was one 15 of Mr. Epstein's clients? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 17 TODD BLANCHE: She was one of 18 Mr. client -- Mr. Epstein's clients as well? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Who else? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I think that 22 there was people, other people that he would, like, 23 assist. I know that he helped Lynn Forester, who 24 became Lynn de Rothschild. She'll deny it and she 25 has, but she -- she can't. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 73 1 TODD BLANCHE: And when you say "help," 2 the same help in business or what help? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so-- so -- I 4 have no idea what he did for her. I know he helped 5 her financially. Her husband was the controller of 6 New York. So, but I don't -- again, I'm not inside 7 his business, but he would've -- his -- his -- this 8 notion that he black -- blackmailed men or we don't 9 really have to go there, that he wasn't a businessman 10 and that everything he did was a fraud or a funk or 11 what -- I don't believe that to be true. 12 TODD BLANCHE: Why? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry? 14 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you -- so you say 15 you don't believe it to be true, but show me why you 16 think that. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Just from -- I know you've 19 been talking about it, that he was very -- he was 20 very conscientious. He was very good at math. He 21 was -- took, paid a lot of attention to his clients, 22 but -- but yes. You're right. There's allegations 23 of -- of blackmail or also that -- that there was 24 some level of -- of fraud involved in what he did, 25 and you don't believe it. Why do you -- why do you MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 74 1 say that? 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I -- let me 3 rephrase that. If there was fraud, I never saw it. 4 What I saw or what I felt when I -- his -- I ran that 5 office. I mean, ran. I didn't -- I was responsible 6 for the staff. People worked. There were lawyers, 7 there were accountants. I never heard him -- I never 8 -- wit- -- I never felt anything, I don't know, icky. 9 DAVID MARKUS: Did -- did you ever see him 10 blackmail a -- 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never. 12 DAVID MARKUS: -- a client? 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 14 DAVID MARKUS: Did you ever see him 15 blackmail a -- an -- a friend or an acquaintance? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never. 17 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Well, so I think when folks 19 talk about block -- blackmail, and we can talk about 20 -- sorry about that. 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. 22 TODD BLANCHE: We can talk about that now. 23 There are a lot of allegations about him, which 24 we'll -- which we should talk about and we can do 25 that now. And the fact that he abused young women. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 75 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 2 TODD BLANCHE: Full stop. Okay. Which 3 means, the way that I'm defining abuse, as has been 4 widely reported, is that -- that he would cause young 5 women in high school to be recruited to come to his 6 house and give him massages. And a part of -- and 7 the -- and the -- and as part of that, he would 8 sexually abuse them, okay? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 10 TODD BLANCHE: So I want to talk about 11 that. But as it relates to blackmail, the question 12 is whether you're aware of any time, that any of the 13 individuals we're talking about, and we'll talk about 14 others, received massages from women who were under 15 18 or may have been under 18. 16 And that whether there was any sexual 17 assaults or sexual contact between any of these 18 people and those masseuses, which would've allowed 19 then, Mr. Epstein, potentially, to blackmail them and 20 say, "You have to continue to work with me or you 21 have to give me money, or else I'm going to tell the 22 world that -- that -- that you did this." 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. I -- I think 24 this is a really good place to start with how this 25 story began. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 76 1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So even, let's assume 3 that that premise is correct, that he was doing that 4 and he was going to tell everybody, going to say, 5 "oh, you know, you had inappropriate relations with 6 an underage girl." If you don't have a video or 7 photograph, photographic evidence, because I -- I'm 8 not sure that even the FBI would take that. Well, 9 maybe today, but certainly not back then, would take 10 that seriously. 11 So you have to have something to say, 12 "Hey, you know, look, I've got this video of you 13 doing terrible things and you need to." So I built 14 those houses, many of them. I decorated those 15 houses. I put the electricians in for the wiring. I 16 never wired, nor saw, a single house that had any 17 type of inappropriate, let's say, video surveillance. 18 And I'll define that for you. 19 Inappropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom, 20 in a bedroom, in any private area of a home. 21 TODD BLANCHE: In a room where there were 22 massages given? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Inappropriate. I 24 would say I would define "appropriate" surveillance 25 to be the front door of a house, or potentially, as MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 77 1 in 71st Street, the physical plant. Anywhere else 2 would be grotesque. 3 TODD BLANCHE: So I just want to come back 4 to -- I know I'm just hopefully stating the obvious, 5 but when you say "the houses," you're talking about 6 his New York -- 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 8 TODD BLANCHE: -- brownstone? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 10 TODD BLANCHE: You're talking about the 11 island in -- in the Caribbean? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 13 TODD BLANCHE: You're talking about the 14 residence in Palm Beach? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 16 TODD BLANCHE: And you're talking about 17 the ranch in New Mexico? 18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 19 TODD BLANCHE: Anywhere else? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Paris. 21 TODD BLANCHE: And in Paris. And so -- 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the plane. I saw 23 some ridiculous thing with the plane -- 24 TODD BLANCHE: And the plane. Okay. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that was what we're MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 78 1 doing. Yes. I didn't -- 2 TODD BLANCHE: So -- 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I didn't hire any 4 electrician on the plane. Okay. 5 TODD BLANCHE: -- so unequivocally, 6 unequivocally from what you know, and you only know 7 what you know -- 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I only know what I 9 know. 10 TODD BLANCHE: -- but from what you know, 11 you do not believe a camera exists, or a video camera 12 or a camera that takes pictures, inside any of his 13 residences? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. 15 TODD BLANCHE: So even the appropriate 16 cameras that you just talked about, which would be 17 kind of exterior security cameras, did you know 18 whether there was any cameras, that you're aware of, 19 inside any of the locations? 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never, with one 21 exception. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What's the 23 exception? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The exception is 25 Palm Beach. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 79 1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the reason -- so 3 in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen. He 4 noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase, 5 call it his briefcase. And he called in the 6 Palm Beach police and they, the Palm Beach police 7 installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Where was that? Do you 9 remember? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: At his desk in -- so 11 the house on the ground floor was -- he had a desk, 12 sort of in a corner. There was that camera. I think 13 there was another camera. I think there were two or 14 maybe three cameras. I believe only on the ground 15 floor, wherever he may have had -- maybe he had 16 another office in the cabana. There may have been a 17 camera there. 18 TODD BLANCHE: When was this? I'm not 19 looking for an exact date, but what time period are 20 you thinking about when you say this? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2003. I think I can 22 date it for you precisely, actually, 2003. I'm 23 pretty firm on that date. 24 TODD BLANCHE: So -- 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I can be firm MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 80 1 because John Alessi, the butler was fired in the end 2 of 2002 and he was the thief. 3 TODD BLANCHE: So aside from law 4 enforcement installing a camera, to try to catch 5 somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein, you're not 6 aware of any cameras at the island -- no. Sorry. 7 You're -- just so we record it because ... 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry -- sorry -- 9 sorry. 10 TODD BLANCHE: No. That's okay. You were 11 nodding your head no. 12 So what about -- 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No cameras anywhere, 14 outside of, possibly, things that would -- I would 15 consider -- myself, I would consider normal. So the 16 garage gate, something like that, a front door. 17 TODD BLANCHE: Outside, like security 18 cameras? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Security cameras. 20 TODD BLANCHE: No. I -- I -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there were cameras 22 inside in the 71st Street that did the plant, the 23 physical plant, because it was a commercial building. 24 So you had the whole -- that's a real thing there. 25 It's a commercial building. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 81 1 And there were -- there was one camera on 2 the -- on the front door, internal, from the internal 3 that did the front door, as I recall. But I -- there 4 were no other cameras inside the house. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever -- how about 6 photographs. Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein, or 7 anybody around him, take pictures of anybody in 8 compromising positions with women or with -- or with 9 anybody? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 11 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever hear, when you 12 were present for conversations that Mr. Epstein was 13 having, or others were having, anybody accuse him of 14 blackmailing them or of trying to extort them, 15 because of something Mr. Epstein knew? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. 17 TODD BLANCHE: There have been -- and -- 18 and you -- you -- in the discovery you got in the 19 New York case, okay. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 21 TODD BLANCHE: And in the civil cases that 22 you've been part of -- 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 24 TODD BLANCHE: -- associated with 25 Mr. Epstein, have you ever been given or ever been MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 82 1 told that video exists, like what we're talking 2 about, or photos were taken that -- that were 3 compromising? 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in the -- in both 5 of those, I never received no pictures or anything 6 from the civil case. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But in the criminal 9 case, I received videos of Epstein talking to women 10 and stuff like that. I did get those. I also saw 11 binders, photographs of women and (indiscernible). I 12 never saw any, well, I don't know -- I don't know how 13 old some of these women were. There were definitely 14 some of the victims from Palm Beach, the photographs 15 of them in -- in -- without clothing. 16 TODD BLANCHE: And in that -- in those 17 photographs, were -- the victims that were 18 photographed, were there any of the people you've 19 talked about? Like, were there men with the victims 20 or were they just photographs of the victims? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There was no men with 22 these pictures. There was no client of his with 23 those pictures. They would be standalone, for want 24 of a better word, like modeling shots. If you 25 were -- if you -- if you were, I don't know. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 83 1 DAVID MARKUS: Pictures that Epstein had 2 with the girls, but not Epstein with the clients and 3 the girls. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- I understand you 6 said you got those in the discovery. Did you know 7 those -- those pictures -- pictures like that 8 existed? 9 So right now I'm talking about photographs 10 of victims or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein 11 had on his computer or wherever he had them. Did you 12 know that those photos existed before you got them in 13 discovery? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some of them, 15 absolutely, because they were in his house. Some of 16 these pictures were on his, you know, credenza or 17 whatever. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some pictures I've 20 simply never seen before. I mean, there was -- I -- 21 I had never seen some of them. Some of them I had, 22 some of them I hadn't, I mean. 23 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- so -- so you're 24 right, and I -- I accept that having video or 25 photographs of somebody famous or powerful in a MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 84 1 compromising position, would be good blackmail. 2 But -- so separate -- putting aside what 3 you've said about the fact that you don't know of any 4 existence of those, did you observe, over the years, 5 the folks we're talking about, or others which we can 6 talk about, getting massages from young women? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- I just -- I 8 think it's really helpful to understand a few things 9 that has been missed in this whole mishigas. 10 DAVID MARKUS: That's a technical term. 11 TODD BLANCHE: I'll look it up later. 12 Go ahead. 13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought about this 14 obviously a lot and I've given it -- 15 TODD BLANCHE: Yep. 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- some -- so this is 17 the benefit of -- some benefit of what I saw and some 18 benefit of what I now think, so just for clarity's 19 sake. 20 I think -- I just want to say for the 21 record, that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of, 22 not all, but some of what he's accused of. And I'm 23 not here to defend him in any respect whatsoever. I 24 don't want to, and I don't think he requires, nor 25 deserves any type of protection or -- from me in any MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 85 1 way, to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do. So 2 there's that. 3 However, the man I met and the man he 4 became, I believe that there is a progression, and I 5 don't think that the man I met is the man that he 6 became. I believe he became that man over a period 7 of time. 8 Now we can discuss anything you want and 9 I'll tell you everything I know, but I think somebody 10 who has an interest, however you define that, in 11 underage people is obviously someone who is unwell. 12 But I don't think that you wake up one day and you 13 start doing what he's accused of. I think this is 14 something that you develop or you progress to. I -- 15 I think, because -- 16 DAVID MARKUS: Ghislaine, before -- before 17 you get into all that, let's answer the top line 18 question and then get into it. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. The top line 20 question is? 21 DAVID MARKUS: Did you ever see any of 22 these people with underage women? 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No -- no. I -- so the 24 reason I'm saying that is not -- is not to avoid that 25 question, but it's because by the time, when you were MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 86 1 talking in the '90s, I don't think he was there. 2 I -- there's that description. I think that this, 3 what you were talking about is a later version. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And -- 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that -- is that? 6 TODD BLANCHE: No. I understand that and 7 I do want to talk -- I'm not -- 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it's just I'm -- I 9 think you need to separate the periods of time -- 10 TODD BLANCHE: Sure. 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- because it -- 12 this -- one of the things that was definitely missing 13 in my trial, and definitely missing from the 14 narrative, is this notion, this, everything happened 15 and he was always but -- no. I don't -- I don't 16 believe that to be true. 17 TODD BLANCHE: So I mean, that -- 18 that's -- that's fine. And I do want to talk about 19 that. I'm not -- I'm not pushing that away. I'm 20 just putting it aside for a moment. 21 What Mr. Epstein did and -- and, frankly, 22 what -- what you did, or are accused of doing, is one 23 thing that I -- that we'll talk about, but what -- 24 right now what I want to understand is -- is whether 25 one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 87 1 clients or -- or took care of them, or some would say 2 blackmail them, was by encouraging them to have -- to 3 interact with -- with women, underage or not. 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think in the 5 '90s, he may have encouraged them, but these were 6 people who were in their 20s or 30s. 7 TODD BLANCHE: So -- so. Understand that. 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: May have -- so he 9 would have a masseuse, right? And he did, male and 10 female, by the way, in the '90s, that's never been 11 discussed. Both in yoga and everything, there were 12 men as well as women. 13 And so if he would travel, and I can show 14 them to you, I highlighted them on the flight record, 15 so you could see that there really were men that were 16 also there. He would say, would you like to do yoga 17 with Tito? Or would you like a massage with this 18 one? But they would be in their late 20s and 19 professional masseuses. 20 TODD BLANCHE: So -- 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think there's a 22 distinction. 23 TODD BLANCHE: And I want to talk about 24 actual individuals here. But -- and I understand the 25 distinction between somebody who's an adult and -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 88 1 and -- and someone who's underage. 2 But even with somebody who's an adult, did 3 you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that, 4 whether it's a client or somebody else? 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So with a -- with a -- 6 I certainly witnessed him. So if you were staying 7 with him and you had a massage that -- he would often 8 travel with a masseuse. He would say, hey, would you 9 like a massage? And he did do that, yes. 10 TODD BLANCHE: But would you or him or 11 anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards, 12 to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual 13 contact? 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never did, no. 15 TODD BLANCHE: So meaning -- and then 16 coming back to the blackmail issue. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yeah. 18 TODD BLANCHE: There's nothing wrong with 19 getting a massage, Of course not. Especially, you 20 know, especially if somebody's obviously an adult, a 21 masseuse. There's -- I'm not quibbling with that. 22 But my question is that there's a lot of 23 accusations that -- that one of the way Mr. Maxwell, 24 I'm sorry, Mr. Epstein was successful, was -- was 25 through this idea of blackmail. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 89 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never -- 2 TODD BLANCHE: And yes, young -- young 3 women and -- and is a crime. Children are -- is a 4 crime. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely. 6 TODD BLANCHE: But even women over the age 7 of 18, if -- if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or 8 whomever to get massages and have inappropriate 9 sexual contact with the masseuses, that's -- that's a 10 separate issue. Maybe -- maybe slightly nuanced, but 11 did you ever know him to do that? 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I never did 13 absolutely myself. I never heard him ask someone. I 14 never -- I never heard that. I never -- no one -- in 15 the entire time I was with him or friends with him, 16 or had anyone, no one ever reported to me or came to 17 me and said that anything inappropriate happened or 18 was upset by -- I never saw a tear. I never saw ever 19 any of that. 20 TODD BLANCHE: And when you say, "No one 21 reported to me," meaning like the masseuses -- 22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never. 23 TODD BLANCHE: -- or any of the house 24 staff -- 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never. MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 90 1 DAVID MARKUS: Or the clients. 2 TODD BLANCHE: -- or the clients 3 themselves? 4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never. 5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so let's -- 6 again, I want to stay -- and -- and coming back now 7 to what you were talking about a moment ago with 8 Mr. Epstein's kind of progression or -- or -- or 9 getting worse. So just staying within the '90s. 10 What role -- what did -- what role did you 11 have or what did you observe -- which are two 12 different issues, but both important -- with respect 13 to recruiting masseuses to come to either, I guess, 14 Palm Beach or to travel, or eventually New Mexico. 15 What role did you have in that? 16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked me to find 17 masseuses for him. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked me if I could 20 find him masseuses. 21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Like, as part of -- 22 like you said, you were his general manager. As part 23 of all your -- your duties, that was one of them? 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I did do that. So 25 the first person I believe that I introduced him to MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 91 1 as a masseuse was somebody called . She 2 was, I don't know, mid, late 20s. Professional 3 masseuse. 4 TODD BLANCHE: And was this something that 5 happened early on in your relationship or -- and 6 again, I know we're talking about the '90s, but are 7 we talking about early '90s or is this later on? 8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in terms of 9 massage, I am a -- I have a lot of injuries. I do a 10 lot of dangerous sports and have had multiple serious 11 accidents, and walk without any lameness, because of 12 physical therapy and massage. I've -- that to me is 13 a very -- it's medicinal for me. 14 So Epstein, whatever his massage 15 situation, whatever -- he loved massage. And if I 16 met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or 17 masseur, I introduced them. 18 And he -- because I got them, and he asked 19 me if I did, and I said yes. And that's -- I'm 20 pretty sure that would've -- well, I don't remember. 21 '93, '92, from the beginning. 22 TODD BLANCHE: So -- so go ahead. So then 23 what happens over the next, you know, like there's 24 been -- there's a ton of writing and a ton of, I 25 guess, testimony as well, but also public reporting, DOJ REDACTION MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 92 1 about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort 2 that you were a part of, that he was a part of, and 3 others, to try to find more and more masseuses. 4 What -- is that -- is that true, and what 5 role did you have in that? 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was partially 7 true. 8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it is true that I 10 found masseuses and he became more insistent. He -- 11 he -- he liked new all the time. He got bored. So 12 he would be bored with a masseuse and he would say, 13 find me a new masseuse. 14 I am the entire opposite. If I find 15 someone that I like, I stay with them. I'm like, I 16 don't want new. He would drive for new. So that is 17 true. 18 And in my effort to find them, I would go 19 to massage spas, like legitimate spas. Not -- we're 20 not talking, you know, funky ones that people have. 21 So -- and I -- if I got a massage from 22 somebody in a spa, that was -- I liked -- I liked, I 23 asked them if they would do home visits. If they 24 said yes, I would ask them to come to the house and 25 he would see if he liked them or not. But these were MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 93 1 people who worked in spas. I never, ever checked 2 their age and I never checked their credentials. I 3 never asked for a certificate. 4 TODD BLANCHE: What -- 5 DAVID MARKUS: But just to be clear, you 6 never thought anybody was under 18? 7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never crossed -- I 8 never -- no. That was never my -- that was never a 9 drive. 10 TODD BLANCHE: What -- what did you know 11 at the time about him, Mr. Epstein, requiring 12 masseuses to be naked or requiring masseuses to 13 either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein or to be 14 there if Mr. Epstein masturbated or things like that. 15 And again, I'm asking you about a 15-year 16 period or whatever, 10-year period. So I appreciate, 17 it's a very broad question. So answer it in a way 18 that, you know, addresses what you've been charged 19 with doing, but also what's been said about you. 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I don't -- 21 the '90s, I don't think that I ever thought -- that 22 never would cross my mind. I'm not sure that I 23 thought about that in those contexts at all, until 24 his arrest and those papers came out. But I believe 25 the -- the subject of the -- the question that you're MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 94 1 asking me, I believe started in the 2000s. 2 TODD BLANCHE: In the 2000 time period? 3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. 2000. 4 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you -- why do you 5 think -- 6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2000. 7 TODD BLANCHE: Like what -- what in your 8 mind makes you think that that's the time that it 9 started? 10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think because in 11 December of 2001, he met And I 12 think was responsible for that in 13 its entirety. 14 And the reason I believe that, so this -- 15 she -- she was a self-confessed having been sexually 16 abused as a young girl, and was trained -- her words 17 I'm quoting now, not mine, in all the arts of 18 whatever that is, the sex program by a man called Ron 19 Eppinger, who was her pimp from when she was 14, I 20 believe, or 15, I don't know. 21 And in her book describes him training her 22 to be what every man wants in all its manners, 23 fellatio and everything else. I believe that then 24 what happened was that he met her, and she came as a 25 masseuse to his house, in December of 2001 is when I DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 95 1 think it started. 2 Now, what their relationship was or what 3 happened with them in that early period of time, I 4 cannot say. What I can say is that he liked her and 5 she started to travel with him at that time period. 6 I believe -- I know, then, what happened 7 was that she -- when she first started to see him or 8 first came into his orbit as his masseuse or 9 whatever, she was engaged to be married and wearing 10 an engagement ring, and was living with her fianc?. 11 She broke up after a few months, with her 12 fianc?, and took up with the local drug dealer. So 13 let's say after four or five months of -- in the time 14 period when she was seeing Epstein, let's say we're 15 now May, June of 2002 or is it 2000. I can't 16 remember. 17 From whenever she hits the -- whatever 18 that is if that's 2000. I think it's 2000. I'm 19 sorry. I think it's when she met him. December of 20 2000. So -- so then you go through -- I don't 21 remember. You'll have to look. 22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I'm not holding you 23 to exact dates. I'm not -- 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I mean, I'm just 25 trying to -- I'm giving the -- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 96 1 TODD BLANCHE: -- I appreciate. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So then I think -- so 3 she -- she takes up with the local drug dealer and 4 she becomes druggie, druggie. Like, you know, how 5 druggies -- well, maybe you don't. I live with a lot 6 in Tallahassee. They become even more unreliable 7 than normal. 8 And at some point, she's now working 9 somewhere else. He stopped seeing her, because he 10 doesn't like people who do drugs. And I think that 11 not seeing her lasted five or six months. And in 12 that period of time, she got arrested for theft, and 13 she had a warrant out for her arrest. 14 Now, this I've pieced together because 15 this piece I didn't know. She then called Epstein 16 to -- to have help avoiding the warrant for her 17 arrest, and he sent her to Thailand to get a massage 18 therapy license. This is the bit that I guess. This 19 is the bit that I extrapolated. 20 In the period of time from when she came 21 back to when she left, he asked her to replace 22 herself as his masseuse or whatever -- whatever she 23 was doing, and she brought the first replacement for 24 her. That would've been one of the accusers in my 25 case, I think, would've been . DOJ REDACTION MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 97 1 And that -- and then everyone who came 2 subsequent to or simultaneously, if she 3 wasn't the first, I don't know. Everyone -- every 4 single person who came to his house, came through 5 and her boyfriend, Tony, and then whoever 6 else underneath her. And that is how it started. 7 TODD BLANCHE: So before her -- 8 LEAH SAFFIAN: Tony Figueroa. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Tony Figueroa is her 10 boyfriend. 11 TODD BLANCHE: Before her -- so now going 12 back in the '90s. You don't believe that Mr. Epstein 13 was abusing masseuses? 14 DAVID MARKUS: Underage? 15 TODD BLANCHE: Or over age? I mean, I 16 think -- well, I'm using abuse in the broadest sense 17 of word, because I'm assuming that you -- you -- 18 you -- you -- you -- you said that you have no idea 19 of the year -- you-- you always assumed the masseuses 20 were over age, right? 21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did. 22 TODD BLANCHE: So when I'm talking about 23 abuse, I'm even talking about an adult masseuse who 24 comes in to give a massage and is told to take off 25 their clothes, told they're not going to get paid if DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION- MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 98 1 they don't take off their clothes. Basically 2 suggested they had to watch him masturbate. Like the 3 things that have been publicly said about what he 4 did. 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not -- 6 TODD BLANCHE: For now I'm not -- I'm not 7 distinguishing adults or -- or -- or young or 8 underage women for that. I'm saying abuse. 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm -- I'm going to 10 think that that would've been a habit. 11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm going to say that 13 the massage game was a habit. And I think -- 14 DAVID MARKUS: What does that mean? 15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That means that I'm 16 sure that he didn't suddenly start having relations 17 with masseuses in 2002. 18 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I am sure he must have 20 had relations with masseuses, who knows when. 21 TODD BLANCHE: But you're saying, as far 22 as you -- I -- I used the word abuse. You're saying 23 that as far as you sit here today, you would describe 24 that more as consensual? Meaning the masseuse did 25 those -- did this willingly? MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 99 1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I saw him with 2 lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse 3 ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So 4 based on my observation, I don't think that if you 5 are being raped, as now he's like this prolific -- I 6 just -- I just can't imagine why you would return. 7 TODD BLANCHE: That's not what you 8 observed at the time? 9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not what I observed at 10 the time, no. 11 TODD BLANCHE: I want to -- we're -- we're 12 going to spend a little -- we're going to spend more 13 time on this issue, because I -- I think it's 14 important. But just going back to kind of the -- the 15 question that I started with in this area, which is 16 that it ties into the blackmail issue. 17 So we talked about people that were his 18 clients, and you've mentioned President Clinton, and 19 then early on -- 20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I never said he 21 was a client. 22 TODD BLANCHE: I -- I did not say you 23 said. I'm saying when you talk about his clients. 24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, okay. Right. 25 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And puts his clients MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES

Page 100 1 off the side. 2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. 3 TODD BLANCHE: And then you mentioned some 4 other people. You mentioned President Clinton -- 5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 6 TODD BLANCHE: -- you mentioned President 7 Trump early on. 8 Who were other famous/politicians, who 9 were other individuals in Mr. Epstein's life during 10 that time period? So the early '90s -- 11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was the '90s. 12 Let's -- should we just -- 13 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. 14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Congressman 15 McMillen. 16 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again. 17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: McMillen. 18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Henry Rosovsky, who 20 was the provost of Harvard. Hang on (Indiscernible). 21 TODD BLANCHE: Sure. You're looking at 22 your -- your -- your notes. 23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. 24 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. Go ahead. 25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Joe Pagano, Jerry MAGNA9 LEGAL SERVICES