LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 other guy. No-no. They put him with someone 2 else. I don't know. 3 MR. : So initially he is with - 4 is it Tartaglione? 5 MR. : Tartaglione he was named. 6 Yeah. 7 MR. : And then he went to 8 suicide watch. 9 MR. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : Came back on Jul 30th 11 like that. So from July 30th to August 9th. 12 As ops lieutenant or otherwise, did you have 13 any conversations with anybody working on the 14 SHU - in the SHU - on August 9th or August 10th 15 about Epstein? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : And what were those 18 conversations entail? 19 MR. : Uh you know just hey, leave 20 him with - just gotta make sure they got down 21 here early. You've got legal visits. Uh I 22 know he was asking for a phone call. This is 23 like basic you know regular stuff. 24 MR. : What about with regard to 25 making sure they're doing rounds or that he has EFTA00111189

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 a cellmate? Did you have any conversations 2 from the time you got that email on? After you 3 got that email, did you call down to the SHU 4 and say hey, or visit the SHU, and say hey make 5 sure he's got a -? 6 MR. : I can't recall. 7 MR. : Did you -? 8 MR. : And I wouldn't do it if I'm 9 not the - 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : You know? 12 MR. : Did you take any action 13 after receiving that email? Did you talk to 14 anybody about it? 15 MR. : I can't recall. 16 MR. : That email was Why 17 was that email sent out to all the lieutenants? 18 MR. : I told you. They send it out 19 every time someone comes off suicide watch. 20 MR. : Right. So what is the 21 purpose of that? 22 MR. : For the doing they job. 23 MR. : So by you getting it and 24 doing your job as like an ops lieutenant. Or 25 an activities' lieutenant. What does that EFTA00111190

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 203 1 that something that you're supposed to make 2 other people aware of? Or why do they provide 3 you with that information? 4 MR. : I think they required to. 5 MR. : They're required to? 6 MR. : I think they're required, or 7 it could be a reminder. Hey, by the way, this 8 guy's getting released off suicide watch and 9 placed him with an inmate in SHU. 10 MR. : But is it so you can then 11 follow-up to make sure the CO's know? Or there 12 must be a reason rather than just for your own 13 information. There's got to be. Usually 14 you're provided information for a specific 15 reason. So why are lieutenants provided that 16 information? Rather than just the SHU 17 lieutenant? Why are everybody else provided 18 it? 19 MR. : Uh I'm not sure. But they 20 send an email out to everybody though. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : Lieutenants (Indiscernible 23 *02:35:05). 24 MR. : SO that's what I'm 25 saying. Well it's not an all-staff email. EFTA00111191

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 It's like -. 2 MR. : No. It's a correctional 3 services and correctional systems. Right? 4 MR. : Oh you can tell me. Here 5 I'll show you. I thought it was primarily 6 lieutenants. I mean I think a couple SHU staff 7 might be on there. But it's the three pages 8 behind it. 9 MR. : Okay. So suicide watch psych 10 observation update. So you got legal in here, 11 food service, case managers, lieutenants, unit 12 team -. 13 MR. : So by reviewing that are 14 you able to tell like is there a target 15 audience that they're 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : -- sending it out to? 18 MR. : This is to make everybody 19 aware. 20 MR. : Because it's not an all- 21 staff email though is it? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : So who are they sending 24 it to? 25 MR. : Uh.... EFTA00111192

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 MR. : Like how do they come up 2 with that group of people to send it to? 3 MR. : It's the same way we do the 4 logs. We send it to eh same group every night. 5 MR. : What group is that? 6 MR. : Then Executive staff, then 7 lieutenants, then psychology, then a psycho 8 assistant, it's a 9 MR. : So is it all correctional 10 staff though? 11 MR. : Correctional staff yeah. 12 It's not all correctional officers though. 13 MR. : So is everybody but the 14 officers? 15 MR. : You got some officers on here 16 too. 17 MR. : But you're not sure how 18 they make that decision? 19 MR. : No. Yeah. You got medical, 20 lieutenants, food service, R&D, legal, duty 21 officer, yeah. I mean I think they would 22 probably do this it's for your information. 23 Like FYI. 24 MR. : But you know -. I 25 understand where the FYI. EFTA00111193

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 MR. : Is that a target audience? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : You're not clear on why 5 they -- 6 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:37:15) No. 7 MR. send it to those 8 specific people? Okay. But as far as you 9 receiving it. 10 MR. : Yeah, I can't recall if i 11 spoke to him about it up internal or not. 12 MR. : And that wouldn't be like 13 - that's not the way it works whereas provide 14 the information to lieutenants and the 15 lieutenants make sure that you provide the 16 information the COs? 17 MR. : It depends on your area. 18 Like if I'm the SHU lieutenant right now, 19 right. 20 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 21 MR. : So they say hey, this 22 guy's coming in. Make sure. Okay. Make sure 23 you know. I'm saying directly to the staff I'm 24 supervising. 25 MR. : Is it the ops EFTA00111194

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 lieutenant's job to make sure the SHU 2 lieutenant does it? 3 MR. : Mm. 4 MR. : Is there any oversight 5 there? Does the ops lieutenant kind of have 6 oversight over the SHU lieutenant? 7 MR. : I mean sometimes the SHU 8 lieutenant has rank on an ops lieutenant. 9 MR. : Oh. It depends on if 10 you're a 9 or an 11? 11 MR. : yeah. 12 MR. : All right. So it's not 13 based upon the position that you're holding? 14 Like the ops lieutenant doesn't - like that 15 position doesn't 16 MR. : I mean we don't supervise 17 lieutenants. No lieutenant supervises 18 lieutenants. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : That's - we have a 21 supervisor. 22 MR. : No-no-no. And again, 23 these are questions just for us to try to 24 understand how the operation works here. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111195

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 MR. : And it again, not placing 2 blame on you whatsoever. It's just trying to 3 figure out how is it supposed to work? If 4 they're saying it's you, are you supposed to do 5 something with that information? 6 MR. : I mean but the thing is they 7 follow-up into that time. 8 MR. : What do you mean? 9 MR. : He had a bunkie up until that 10 time. 11 MR. : Right. So they put it 12 out. He had a bunkie. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : And then he didn't. And 15 that's what we're trying to figure out. 16 MR. : And then (Indiscernible 17 *02:38:39). 18 MR. : Who - where was the 19 communication breakdown? Who should have at 20 that time taken action to make sure he had a 21 bunkie? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : And that's the whole 24 thing we're looking into. Who should have made 25 sure Epstein -? Once Reyes was removed and EFTA00111196

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 people were notified that he was removed. Who 2 should have taken action? 3 MR. : yeah. 4 MR. : And who in your opinion 5 should have? 6 MR. : I don't know man that's 7 tough one. Yeah. 8 MR. : But like even position 9 wise. Not to name names. What position should 10 have taken action? 11 MR. Mm. I'm not sure. I'm not 12 sure with that one there. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : I just - that just The 15 guy left and I mean, you know. 16 MR. : Now I'm just handing you 17 back this lieutenant log. 18 MR. : Mm-hm. 19 MR. : You know a few pages 20 back. But um did you - were you involved with 21 that lieutenant's log? Did you make any 22 entries on that lieutenant log on August 9th? 23 MR. : I'm not sure. 24 MR. : Yeah. Are you able to 25 tell by looking at it? Like is that something EFTA00111197

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 you can tell who made entries? Or is it anyone 2 can make an entry? 3 MR. : I mean we all can make an 4 entry. 5 MR. : Does it show like 6 initials or anything like that after an entry 7 was made? Does it show who made what entry? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : No? Does it show 10 anything with regard to Reyes on that 11 lieutenant's log? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : What does it say? 14 MR. : Reyes to pre-remove. 15 MR. : And what does that mean? 16 MR. : Pre-trial remove. 17 MR. : Does that mean that he's 18 leaving and he's not coming back? 19 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 20 MR. : What time does it say 21 that? 22 MR. : Or -. Yeah. Or -. Yeah. It 23 depends. 8:38. 24 MR. : So 8:38. Does that mean 25 at 8:39 pretrial to remove? Does that mean EFTA00111198

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 1 that they knew at 8:38 that he wasn't coming 2 back? 3 MR. : Not necessarily. 4 MR. : What does it mean? 5 MR. : It means that's when they put 6 the information in. 7 MR. : But I'm saying like what 8 the information says. Is that what normally 9 that people are going to court - what it says 10 for them - if they're coming back? 11 MR. Mm. No. Normally they say 12 it's taken off the count. Pretrial is removed. 13 So he was taken off the count from 7:00 to 6:00 14 he was taken off the count. 15 MR. : Are people that go to 16 court always taken off the count? 17 MR. : Mm. No. 18 MR. : So by looking at that, 19 that tells you that he was already WAB? 20 MR. Mm. I mean if they go to 21 Brooklyn, sometimes they take them off for a 22 different court. But this one here, I would 23 say yeah, taken off the count. And again I'm 24 not sure. I see pre-remove proof. Pre-remove. 25 MR. : But by saying pre-remove, EFTA00111199

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 does that mean it's more likely that he's 2 MR. HE's taken off the count. 3 MR. : -- not coming back? 4 MR. : Uh. Yeah. 5 MR. : And who would have that 6 entry? 7 MR. : Mm. I'm not sure. 8 MR. : Do you know if you made 9 that entry? 10 MR. : I'm not sure. 11 MR. : And there's no way to 12 tell? 13 MR. : Mm. 14 MR. : So I guess the question 15 is at approximately 8:30 , did we already know 16 as the BOP - did we already know hey, this 17 guy's probably not coming back? 18 MR. : Um. I'm not sure. 19 MR. : What does it show if he was 20 coming back? 21 MR. : That's why I say 8:00. 22 MR. : No-no-no. What would show? 23 MR. : If he was coming back? 24 MR. : You said that's it's pre- 25 remove. EFTA00111200

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : If he was coming back, what 3 would it show? Would it say pre-remove or 4 would it say something else? 5 MR. : See that's the thing is 6 mean. 7 MR. : Like not that he was 8 coming back. Like if he's just going to court, 9 and you don't know if he's coming back or not. 10 If he's going to court. 11 MR. : Mm-hm. 12 MR. : And he's not WAB. Would 13 it say that? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : So it would only say that 16 if they thought he wasn't coming back? 17 MR. Mm. Yeah. Probably. 18 MR. : All right. So then it 19 looks like from looking at that. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : At - by 8:38, we knew he 22 was probably not coming back? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : All right. And with that 25 knowledge, should have any action - or should EFTA00111201

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 have any notification at least been made of 2 hey, Epstein's cellmate is likely not coming 3 back. We need to start thinking about a new 4 cellmate. For the people that knew. 5 MR. : I'm not sure. You know. The 6 thing is this is when it was -. See our log is 7 not -. I could go in and see what time someone 8 left and input it. 9 MR. : Mm-hm. 10 MR. : That's what we do. At the 11 end of the shift. 12 MR. : So at 4:00 p.m. this 13 could have been updated is what you're saying? 14 Not at 8:30? 15 MR. : Uh probably like 3:00 around 16 there. Yeah. It's not the only one. 17 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying 18 specifically, I'm just saying like later in the 19 day. 20 MR. : It's not an ongoing thing. 21 MR. : It could have been -. So 22 But does that But do you wouldn't put 23 8:38 - this is when that happened - if at 8:38 24 you dint' know that. Would you? 25 MR. : Well if I don't check it, I EFTA00111202

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 wouldn't know it. 2 MR. : Right. I'm not saying 3 you specifically. 4 MR. : No I mean anybody. If I go 5 on the computer and it has a time. And it says 6 these are the people that left. That's what 7 I'm going off of. 8 MR. : So -. 9 MR. : If I don't check it at 8:38 10 or - I won't know. 11 MR. : So when I say "you" 12 though I'm talking about BOP. So what I'm 13 saying is like the person who entered that. 14 They're entering it as if at 8:38 it was known 15 that he was likely not coming back. Is that 16 correct? 17 MR. : It was known to BOP. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying 21 "you" I'm saying -. 22 MR. : BOP. There's no officers 23 would yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah. And who likely 25 would have entered that? Like who has access EFTA00111203

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 to enter that? Control and lieutenants. Who 2 else? 3 MR. Mm. I think that's about it. 4 MR. : All right. So at that 5 time, it would have been either you, 6 control. Correct? 7 MR. Mm. I'm not sure. 8 MR. : But I'm just saying like 9 it's - you're the only two lieutenants on. And 10 then control. Right? 11 MR. : Again, I'm not sure. 12 MR. : And this is all just - I 13 didn't even realize this until we're now 14 reviewing it. So this isn't a - I promise you 15 this isn't like a setup. This is just trying 16 of figure out. 17 MR. : I'm not sure. Because what 18 if - what if I say hey, I didn't do the log. 19 Or what if hey, you forgot the log. You have 20 to do this. 21 MR. : What do you mean? 22 MR. : If you get an emergency. 23 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 24 MR. : Hey listen, believe me 25 MR. : Yeah-yeah. EFTA00111204

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217 1 MR. : I ain't touch the log. All 2 right. Whatever. I got you. 3 MR. : Right-right. So you 4 don't - so what you're just saying is you don't 5 know if it was -- 6 MR. : I don't know. 7 MR. : -- you, 8 MR. : I don't know. 9 MR. : -- or control? 10 MR. : I don't know who did it. 11 MR. : All right. Because I 12 mean like I know like I'm pretty sure 13 knew he was going but he didn't know he wasn't 14 coming back. Is that correct? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : So that's - I think 17 that's what you're -. 18 MR. : Yeah. But the thing about it 19 with this is if I relieve you and you didn't do 20 nothing. Hey, you know, look out for me. I 21 got you next time. Okay. So just because it's 22 on day watch don't mean day watch staff did it. 23 MR. : So that -. 24 MR. : You know what I'm saying. 25 MR. : So that could have been EFTA00111205

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 filled out by someone other than that was even 2 present at 8:38? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : How would they know? 5 MR. : They got a computer. 6 MR. : What would they see at 7 the computer? 8 MR. : It's on Sentry. 9 MR. : So on Sentry it would say 10 if he was WAS or not? 11 MR. : All movement for the day. 12 MR. : Would that -? 13 MR. : All the movement. 14 MR. : And would that be 15 maintained for a long period of time? Or is 16 that constantly refreshed? 17 MR. : It refreshed until midnight. 18 MR. : And then you - at this 19 point in time would we be able to go back and 20 see what did it say? 21 MR. : I could come in at 10:00 or 22 11:00 at night and do a whole 24 hours of 23 movement. 24 MR. : All right. So you don't 25 know. EFTA00111206

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 MR. : I don't know who did this. 2 Was it day watch or what? 3 MR. : And there's no way to 4 tell by looking at it? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : Is there in Sentry any 7 way to tell who entered it? 8 MR. : We don't do the Sentry. We 9 just take the information off of Sentry. 10 MR. : Oh. Well who would have 11 put it in Sentry? 12 MR. : R&D. 13 MR. : Okay. So R&D could have 14 put it in Sentry and then whomever - either one 15 of the lieutenants or control would have typed 16 it in? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Or yeah somebody. 20 MR. : All right. So with this 21 information at 8:38, would it have been - if at 22 8:38 we knew that -? And when I say "we" - BOP 23 or whomever - R&D. control - knew that he was 24 going and likely not coming back. Who should 25 have starting making those notifications that EFTA00111207

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 MR. 4 time? 5 6 7 8 9 10 MR. 11 MR. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. 25 220 Epstein was without a cellmate? Is that SHU staff? Is it lieutenants? : He said they known at this MR. : Yeah. So at 8:38, he's going WAB. He leaves with a brown paper bag and he' got stuff with him. He knows he's not coming back. Reyes is saying I'm out. I'm not coming back. : Mm-hm. : Who should have at that point should have it been the SHU staff that started making notifications? Hey, we know Epstein's cellmate is gone. We need to start making some rounds. Is that you know the ops or the activities' lieutenant should have said hey, he's gone. We've got to notify the captain. MR. : I mean the thing of it is. MR. : Like who should have -? MR. : I don't even know who the dude is. MR. : Right. : So for one, a regular staff wouldn't even know who bunkie is. EFTA00111208

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 MR. : And that's where my 2 question. Should SHU have started saying like 3 this is - hey ops and activities' lieutenant. 4 This Reyes guy is Epstein's cellmate. We need 5 to start thinking about putting a cellmate and 6 getting a new cellmate assigned. 7 MR. : That's again if they 8 definitely knew he wasn't coming back. Just 9 because this - like you can get a pre-remove 10 MR. : And is that why -? 11 MR. : And then at 4:50 you get pre- 12 removed to such-and-such. 13 MR. : Okay. So is that why 14 memo that said, "possibly not coming 15 back and will likely need a new cellmate." Is 16 that why that's the appropriate response? 17 MR. : Possibly. Probably. Because 18 he knows who to tell. 19 MR. : And is that why you're 20 saying that they would have written possibly 21 because at this point it looks like it's 22 likely, but it's not definite. 23 MR. : Yeah. I could see him 24 could see that happening because like you said, 25 this happens all the time. EFTA00111209

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 MR. : All right. Because again 2 it says that inmate Reyes was going WAB and 3 possibly may not return. Also that inmate 4 Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival 5 from his attorney visit. So looks like they 6 knew - SHU. Should have told you - 7 activities' lieutenant - or - ops 8 lieutenant? 9 MR. : I mean. 10 MR. : I'm not saying that he 11 did or that you know. You already said you 12 dint'. 13 MR. : I'm not even saying that he 14 should have. 15 MR. : oh. 16 MR. : I don't know. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : If he was notified, and he 19 said it could be. Again I told you 8:00. 20 That's (Indiscernible *02:49:44) guys come in 21 all the time from court. 22 MR. : Yeah-yeah. But I'm just 23 saying with the fact that Epstein - everybody 24 knows he needs a cellmate. Should have they 25 notified up the chain of command at this point? EFTA00111210

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 MR. : What if he came back at 8:00? 2 MR. : But what I'm saying is 3 like the fact that they know it's possible and 4 likely. Should have they started making 5 notifications being that you were the ops 6 lieutenant for a long time. You were a 7 lieutenant now it seems for a number of years. 8 In your expert opinion as a lieutenant -- 9 MR. : Mm-hm. 10 MR. : Should these guys have 11 started making some notifications? 12 MR. Mm. That's hard to say. 13 Because if you pass on this information, 14 possibly the guy shows up at 8:00. What 15 notification I need to make? 16 MR. : Okay. So you were the 17 activities' lieutenant and was the 18 activities' lieutenant when that thing says 19 8:38. Do you believe -- 20 MR. : He said that um -. 21 MR. as that person who was 22 you know the ops and the activities' lieutenant 23 - those two people. Do you believe at that 24 time that these notifications should have been 25 made to you? Would have you - do you believe EFTA00111211

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 . 1 you should have been made aware? 2 MR. : At 8:30? 3 MR. : Or any time between 8:30 4 and I guess 1:50. During your shift. If your 5 shifted at 2:00 or 4:00. We don't know. 6 MR. : I'm not sure because this - 7 you see pre-removal all the time. They come 8 back. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : That's why I could see him 11 saying hey, this guy might not come back. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : But it's a possibility he 14 can. 15 MR. : So then -. 16 MR. : So to make notifications 17 MR. : If he did it this way -. 18 If told the oncoming staff this is 19 what's up, do you think he took appropriate 20 action? 21 MR. : Who? 22 MR. -: . If he in fact 23 24 MR. : By passing it on? 25 MR. : -- passed on that EFTA00111212

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 information saying hey guys, you know he's 2 saying he said it's the day of and 3 . Right as he's gone, that's Epstein's 4 cellmate. He's going to - like if he doesn't 5 come back, definitely he's going to need a 6 cellmate. 7 MR. : He said that to who you 8 saying? 9 MR. : Well this is what the 10 memo says. It says that - again, "On Friday, 11 August 9, 2019, at approximately 1:50 p.m., I 12 ) passed on to oncoming staff member 13 Officer and present shift staff - 14 and Officer - that inmate Reyes was 15 going WAB and possibly may not return. Also 16 that inmate Epstein will be needing a cellmate 17 upon arrival from his attorney visit." 18 MR. : Okay. So and 19 was on day watch? 20 MR. : Uh I don't know. :- 21 sounds like what he says is that he told 22 MR. -: 23 MR. : And these guys were also 24 present. 25 MR. : So in my expert option, at EFTA00111213

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 1 that time, he did the right thing. 2 MR. : All right. So by this, 3 he shouldn't have passed it up to the ops and 4 activities' lieutenant. He should have kept it 5 in-house until it was definite. 6 MR. : It's premature. Yeah. 7 MR. : Okay. Because that would 8 have been premature prior to this time. 9 MR. : Yeah. Because like I said 10 that time. If he came back, then oh. I 11 thought you said we need to know to change him 12 out or we start - yeah. 13 MR. : And even keeping in mind 14 that both Tartaglione, or however you pronounce 15 his name. 16 MR. : Well after that I don't think 17 he was bunked with him after that. 18 MR. : Him and -. No-no-no. 19 What I'm saying is both of his previous inmates 20 - Epstein I'm saying - Reyes and Tartaglione 21 they were both vetted from the highest of 22 levels. Even with that knowledge, you think 23 that they should have still waited. 24 MR. : I mean I don't under -. 25 MR. : They were vetted by the EFTA00111214

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 227 1 captain, the warden, and the regional director. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : So obviously it took some 4 doing. 5 MR. Mm-hm. But didn't get -. 6 MR. : With that knowledge, do 7 you think that they should have told you? Or 8 no you still think it's premature. 9 MR. : At 1:50? Um. 10 MR. : Well I mean not at 1:50. 11 MR. : I mean I don't know. 12 MR. : It looks like 8:38. 13 MR. : Then again, I told you about 14 that. If I don't check for it, I don't know -. 15 MR. : no-no-no. I'm not saying 16 I'm not saying you checking for him. You 17 already 18 MR. : No. I'm talking about 19 anybody. 20 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. But what 21 I'm saying like it appears that in looking at 22 that, it appears that they knew he was WAB 23 since 8:38, right? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : So I'm saying between EFTA00111215

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 8:38 and whatever the end of your shift is -- 2 MR. : No one said nothing to us. 3 MR. : -- do you believe someone 4 should have said something to you? 5 MR. : I'm not sure. Because then 6 again, you could look at another log where 7 it'll say from pre-remove to ZA. You 8 understand? 9 MR. : Right. Because he didn't 10 actually -. 11 MR. : So that's why I could see him 12 saying well I'm letting y'all know. I'm 13 passing on to you and you because you're going 14 to be here. Possibly. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : I'm giving you the heads up. 17 MR. : So I guess -. And I 18 understood you answered that question. But 19 what I said was - considering the fact that it 20 takes at least almost an entire day to vet who 21 was even going to be placed with him, do you 22 think that they should have started moving this 23 up the chain of command knowing that this guy - 24 no inmate - just a regular inmate shouldn't be 25 placed with this guy. He needs to be vetted. EFTA00111216

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 It's vetted all the way up to the regional 2 director's level. 3 MR. : Yeah. I'm not sure on that 4 one. 5 MR. : Yeah sure. Yeah. All 6 right. Not sure. So is there anything else if 7 it says with Reyes? Does it say when he was 8 actually -- 9 MR. : It just says 8:38 pre- 10 removed. That means taken off the count. Now 11 if he comes back, it will say pre-removed to 12 ZA. And it kind of changes. 13 MR. : So because it says pre- 14 removed, there's no reason to note when they 15 were definitively told he wasn't coming back? 16 MR. : Yeah. This just means he 17 went to court. Right? So you have three going 18 out. Meaning you're off on count. 19 MR. : Mm-hm. 20 MR. : It could be in the Eastern 21 District - whatever. If you do come back, they 22 put you back on. 23 MR. : But only if you come 24 back. Otherwise, they won't name you again. 25 MR. : So this isn't definite. EFTA00111217

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 MR. : It's indefinite? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : All right. 4 MR. : I mean no this is not 5 definite. That means he's possibly - he could 6 come back. Just because it says pre-removed, 7 he'll come back. 8 MR. : But what I'm saying is 9 the fact that he didn't come back. Should have 10 there been another note saying he is now 11 definitely off of our books. 12 MR. : No. You just don't see it on 13 the - you just don't see it. 14 MR. : So just by him not being 15 back on it that just means hey, refer back -. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Hey, refer back to that 18 thing where it said that he was possibly not 19 coming back. 20 MR. : Yep. 21 MR. : There should not be any 22 more notes saying like he's gone. 23 MR. : No. Only think because if 24 I'm evening watch, the only think I'm checking 25 for is the pre-removed to the institution. So EFTA00111218

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 these three, hey did they come back today or 2 are they off the count? So there wouldn't be 3 no follow up. 4 MR. : SO there's no additional 5 -? There should have There's not another 6 line item that shouldn't be in there saying 7 that Reyes wasn't one of the individuals that 8 came back. 9 MR. : No because - because no. 10 MR. : So there's a pre-removed 11 but there's no line for removed. 12 MR. : No. Pre-removed means off the 13 count. He's out the building. Now if he comes 14 back -- 15 MR. : -- and you -? 16 MR. you just put him back in. 17 MR. : Okay. So that's the only 18 notification that should be made - should have 19 been made on the lieutenant's log? 20 MR. : Yeah. This one here? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : All right. And do you 24 mind just putting it like you did that last 25 one. Just a little star next to is. EFTA00111219

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 MR. : I've just got a question real 2 quick. 3 MR. : Yes, please do. 4 MR. : This the 4:00 p.m. count, 5 right? 6 MR. : Mm-hm. 7 MR. : This outcount that you see 8 over here. 9 MR. : For ZD? 10 MR. : For ZA sorry. 11 MR. : ZA? 12 MR. : ZA. See that one? Is that 13 one? Who is that one for? Is that for Reyes? 14 MR. : Outcount. 15 MR. : Who normally gets marked off? 16 On the El that's outcount? 17 MR. : Well. 18 MR. : It means that he's still in 19 the facility? Or the inmates had - leave the 20 facility? 21 MR. : You never usually see an 22 outcount for that one though. I don't know 23 what assignment this is. 24 MR. : Say that again. 25 MR. : I'm not sure what assignment EFTA00111220

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 this is. 2 MR. : You don't know what account? 3 Okay. 4 MR. : Uh. It could have been some 5 type of -. 6 MR. : I was just trying to figure 7 out if they were still counting him as hey, 8 there's a possibility of him coming back. 9 They've left him as outcount. And eventually, 10 after evening they removed him from outcount. 11 MR. : No. So the outcount - oh I 12 know what you're saying now. You're traying to 13 say you mean who is the one that they have at 14 attorney conference. 15 MR. : See attorney conference we 16 know. That's -. 17 MR. : Yeah. That's the same thing. 18 MR. : That's the same thing? 19 MR. : Yeah. All the numbers is 20 repeats for the outcounts. 21 MR. : So you hear what he's 22 saying? 23 MR. : Yeah. Okay. 24 MR. : Ten, one, two. That 25 equals 13. One, one. Three plus one plus 13 EFTA00111221

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 plus two equals 19. 2 MR. : Got it. So at this point, 3 Reyes is completely off the count. 4 MR. : Yeah. 4:00. Yeah. He was 5 off at this time. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : But the thing is he could 8 come back. 9 MR. : Got it. 10 MR. : That's why I'm saying that 11 I know you're saying that hey, should he have. 12 I can't say that. 13 MR. : So you're not like upset 14 at the fact that like he didn't notify you and 15 then you could have notified the captain. You 16 don't think that that would have been what he 17 should have done? 18 MR. : I mean yeah, that's 19 definitely helpful. And it would have been 20 appreciated. But to say that you know he's in 21 the wrong for not doing it and stuff like that. 22 I can't say that. 23 MR. : Okay. And he didn't 24 notify you? 25 MR. : No. Not that I recall. EFTA00111222

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 MR. : Okay. All right. So 2 we're going to move on from that. You can give 3 that back or you can hold onto it. Whatever 4 you want to do. Do you know about any cameras 5 in the MCC SHU that were not working on August 6 9th or 10th? 7 MR. : No. That they wasn't 8 working? 9 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Have you - did you ever - 12 were you made aware of that after August 9th? 13 Any cameras were not working? 14 MR. : I heard something about when 15 they was like checking videos and stuff. 16 MR. : What did you hear about 17 it? 18 MR. : That some of them was showing 19 grainy. 20 MR. : And who would have been 21 responsible for making sure the cameras were 22 working? 23 MR. : Mm. The facilities. 24 MR. : Who from facilities 25 should we speak with? EFTA00111223

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 1 MR. : I'm not sure. 2 MR. : Who worked in facilities? 3 MR. : Whoever they manager is. 4 Facilities manager. 5 MR. : Do you know who that 6 person was back in August? 7 MR. '19. 8 MR. : Or does III -? 9 MR. : It probably was vacant. 10 MR. : Vacant. Was there a 11 12 MR. , he was there. 13 MR. : Did he send - was he a 14 supervisor? 15 MR. : He's not a supervisor. 16 MR. : No? 17 MR. : He's a com tech though. He's 18 com tech. 19 MR. : Would he be somebody that 20 would be good to speak with on that? 21 MR. : Yeah. Probably. 22 MR. : All right. Were you 23 aware thought that prior to that time that they 24 weren't working? 25 MR. : The cameras? No. EFTA00111224

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 MR. : No? Okay. Who is BOP 2 employee 3 MR. : I know him. 4 MR. : Do you know what his 5 position was in August of 2019? 6 MR. : He would have been 7 (Indiscernible *03:00:48) 8 MR. : What does that role 9 entail? What is - his duties and 10 responsibilities? 11 MR. : He's a supervisor of a unit 12 team. 13 MR. : What unit team at the 14 time? Do you know? 15 MR. : I'm not sure. 16 MR. : Did you have any 17 communication with regard to Epstein with 18 19 MR. : Like what? 20 MR. : Just with him being 21 housed within the SHU. 22 MR. : I probably talked to him 23 about something but I don't recall nothing 24 specific. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111225

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 MR. : No communication like that. 2 I don't know. 3 MR. : Did you ever provide him 4 with any kind of special instructions with 5 regard to Epstein? 6 MR. : Not that I recall. 7 MR. : No? What about -? Did 8 you ever communicate with regarding 9 rounds being conducted in the SHU or Epstein 10 needing a cellmate? 11 MR. : Not that I recall. 12 MR. : Are you aware that 13 allowed Epstein to make a telephone 14 call on the evening of August 9, 2019? 15 MR. Mm. I think I heard 16 something about that. I don't know was it 17 though. 18 MR. : No? 19 MR. : I just heard something. I 20 think he made a phone call though. 21 MR. : All right. So do you 22 know anything about involved with that 23 phone call? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : All right. What is your EFTA00111226

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 understanding of the phone call that took place 2 on August 9th with Epstein's telephone call? 3 MR. : It was a regular phone call. 4 MR. : Did you hear that it was 5 made in the shower area? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Have you ever heard of 8 telephone calls being made in the shower area? 9 MR. : In the shower area? Yeah. 10 MR. : And what's the purpose of 11 that? 12 MR. : The cord can't reach. And 13 I'll say we got him (Indiscernible *03:02:16) 14 hey I'm going to give you a phone right now 15 while I'm -0 while you're right there. I don't 16 have to pull you out and it's like a time 17 consuming method. 18 MR. : Do you know if the line 19 that they would be using in that area would be 20 recorded line or a legal line? 21 MR. : It's two. There's two. 22 MR. : Okay. So would there be 23 any reason to provide someone with a legal line 24 that's not recorded? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00111227

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 MR. : So -. 2 MR. : Would there a be a reason? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : So why if they provided 6 Epstein a phone call in the shower area for a 7 legal line, would that be wrong? 8 MR. : You mean an unmonitored line? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : If they gave him an 11 unmonitored line? 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Yeah. Unless you didn't know 14 which one it is. 15 MR. : And if they did know that 16 they gave him a legal line, that was an 17 unmonitored line, should someone have monitored 18 that call? 19 MR. : You can't though. You said 20 it was unmonitored. 21 MR. : No I mean like sit here 22 and listen to the call. 23 MR. : Oh you mean like - I mean 24 they do that all the time. I think they could 25 you know they let them call their legal EFTA00111228

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 attorneys. And yeah, they do that. 2 MR. : Okay. And if they didn't 3 do that. 4 MR. : I don't know if it's a 5 violation. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : But it's not common. 8 MR. : Yeah. So let's say if 9 the captain even authorized it. Yeah, give him 10 his phone call. Just make sure you monitor it 11 and log it. 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : They didn't monitor it. 14 They didn't log it. Would that be a problem? 15 MR. : The captain telling me. 16 Yeah. 17 MR. : All right. Did you ever 18 hear of that practice taking place in the past? 19 MR. : Unmonitored calls? 20 MR. : Yeah. Or like letting 21 somebody in the SHU have a phone call on an 22 unmonitored line, walking away, letting that 23 person talk? 24 MR. : No. Now from an officer's 25 standpoint? EFTA00111229

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : You never seen that 4 before? Or heard about it? 5 MR. : Officers. No. 6 MR. : Okay. What is the policy 7 for inmates making a calls from the SHU? 8 MR. Mm. I do know they could get 9 - they got to come - there's a (Indiscernible 10 *03:04:12) in SHU that everyone has a line. A 11 compassionate phone line. And they get with 12 the chaplain they can make a phone call. Like 13 say that they might you only get one call every 14 30 days. So chaplain say hey, give this guy a 15 call. They come up. They bring him. They let 16 him use the compassionate phone. 17 MR. : And when you say -. 18 MR. : And that's about it. 19 MR. : What's a compassionate 20 phone? 21 MR. : Yeah. It's like something 22 they have a death in the family or something 23 like that. 24 MR. : But is that a monitored 25 call? EFTA00111230

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 MR. : I don't think so. But I mean 2 staff would stay with him. It's monitored 3 yeah. It's monitored. 4 MR. : So anybody in the staff. 5 It's either a monitored line or staff is with 6 them? Is that correct? 7 MR. : If it's monitored in the SHU? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So when I say monitored, 11 I mean it's either a recorded line -. 12 MR. : Or you right there. 13 MR. : -- or you're right there. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And what are the reasons 16 why you would give him an unrecorded line? Or 17 a non-recorded line? 18 MR. : Mm. I mean probably like an 19 emergency or something. 20 MR. : So for him -? 21 MR. : Definitely yeah. So like the 22 chaplain ain't the hey, you know, okay. 23 MR. : But if it was in the 24 shower area, they would actually have the 25 ability to do either a recorded line or a non- EFTA00111231

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 recorded line? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : They're right next to 4 each other? 5 MR. : It's a jack. Yeah. 6 MR. : Yeah. Okay. What about 7 - what's the MCC policy on conducting searches 8 in the SHU? Cell searches. 9 MR. : You have to search the cell. 10 MR. : Do you know about them 11 not conducting cell searches? 12 MR. : Staff not conducting? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Like what? 15 MR. : Like for instance here's 16 cell search from 9 South or the SHU on August 17 9th. It's one cell search. It was conducted 18 at 12:36 p.m. during the day by . It's 19 the only cell search that was conducted on 20 August 9th. 21 MR. : Hm. 22 MR. : Is that weird for you? 23 That you would see only one cell search 24 conducted on a day? 25 MR. : Meh. EFTA00111232

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 MR. : Are they supposed to 2 conduct more than one cell search? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : How many are they 5 supposed to conduct? 6 MR. : Five. 7 MR. : And is it at least five 8 on night watch? And during the day watch -? 9 MR. : Per shift. 10 MR. : What's that? 11 MR. : Per shift. 12 MR. : Per shift? Everyone's 13 supposed to do five? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Is that including the 16 morning watch? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : So day watch and -? 19 MR. : Do area searches on morning 20 watch. 21 MR. : So your understanding is 22 that on day watch and on night watch it's 23 supposed to be five per shift? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : And are you aware if they EFTA00111233

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 weren't doing that? 2 MR. : Mm. 3 MR. : Or is this what you were 4 saying before? An abnormal day? 5 MR. : I mean I don't know. I 6 wasn't aware that they wasn't doing it. No. 7 MR. : Okay. Um and is there 8 any responsibility of the ops or activities' 9 lieutenant overseeing to make sure that these 10 cell searches are being conducted? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : There is? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : And what is that 15 responsibility? 16 MR. : I mean pretty much we check 17 every 30 days. They've got to be done. Every 18 cell supposed to eb searched every 30 days. So 19 20 MR. : Every cell in there is 21 supposed to be searched every 30 days? 22 MR. : The whole unit yeah. 23 MR. : Okay. And that's where 24 the ops lieutenant and activities' lieutenant 25 come in? EFTA00111234

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 1 MR. : Any lieutenant. 2 MR. : Any lieutenant. 3 MR. : It's everybody's 4 responsibility. 5 MR. : So I guess what I'm 6 asking is on August 9th there's no SHU 7 lieutenant in there. As the activities' 8 lieutenant or the ops lieutenant on any of the 9 watches. Should have they been like making 10 sure that they were doing their job? 11 MR. Mm. I'm not sure. 12 MR. : You're not sure? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Because I mean that's in 15 TruScope. It's like you're not checking 16 TruScope at that time -- 17 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 18 MR. anyways. You know. 19 MR. : And during your rounds 20 MR. : And on top of that I think 21 the cells - the cameras probably show the cells 22 being checked. I'm quite sure. They just 23 didn't log them. 24 MR. : All right. So you think 25 that they're actually searching them? EFTA00111235

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 1 MR. : They got to. 2 MR. : And not locking it? 3 MR. : You got to hey, get out. 4 You're doing a feed and cuff up, showers, you 5 come out and yeah. So they not locked. 6 MR. : But would it be 7 surprising to you to hear that there was a lot 8 of extra linens and clothing and all that kind 9 of stuff in the SHU? 10 MR. : That's not surprising. 11 MR. : So if they're doing cell 12 searches, wouldn't they take that stuff out and 13 keep them with the -? 14 MR. : I suppose so. Yeah. 15 MR. : All right. But you 16 believe that they were actually conducting the 17 cell searches? 18 MR. : I'm quite sure. More than 19 one was conducted. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : SO you think it was just 23 - this is all they logged but they probably did 24 more? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00111236

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 1 MR. : Okay. All right. Do you 2 know anything about Epstein being authorized to 3 have pills in his cell in the SHU? 4 MR. : Pillows? 5 MR. : No. Pills. 6 MR. : Nah. 7 MR. : Pills. Like medication. 8 MR. : Nah. 9 MR. : Should have he been 10 allowed medication in his cell? 11 MR. : I mean inmates have 12 medication? 13 MR. : They do? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : So in the SHU they're 16 allowed to have medication? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Is there ever a problem 19 with like OD-ing or anything like that? 20 MR. : I mean if it's - depending on 21 the medication, medical give is to them. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Some have self-carrying 24 medicines. 25 MR. : All right. And so that - EFTA00111237

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 250 1 and that's not abnormal for them to have their 2 own pill bottles and things like that in the 3 SHU? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : What can an inmate have 6 in their cell in the SHU? 7 MR. : T-shirt, boxes, washcloth, a 8 towel, depending on what season too. Blankets, 9 two sheets. 10 MR. : So they can have tow 11 blankets and two sheets? 12 MR. : Depending on the weather. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : And how much is available. 15 MR. : What about in August? 16 How many blankets and sheets could have they 17 had? 18 MR. : How many they could have? 19 MR. : Or are they allowed to 20 have? 21 MR. : Uh. It depends. Some of 22 them -. It depends. It they say hey, let them 23 keep it, two and two, let them keep it. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I say hey, you need to - you EFTA00111238

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 1 know. They go down to one. 2 MR. : Would it be ever 3 authorized to have more than two of each? 4 MR. : How many? Like an extra 5 blanket or something? 6 MR. : Yeah. Like if three 7 blankets or four blankets. 8 MR. : I don't know about four, but 9 an extra blanket I heard that especially in the 10 wintertime depending on the cells. 11 MR. : What about in August? 12 MR. : An extra blanket? 13 MR. : Or extra linens. 14 MR. : Nah. 15 MR. : Yeah. What about extra 16 clothing? 17 MR. : I mean it wouldn't be 18 authorized but they could get it. 19 MR. : How could they get it? 20 MR. : They could get it. They 21 could fish it themselves - inmates. 22 MR. : You mean they can like 23 throw a cord over ... over like the -? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : They do that? EFTA00111239

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. They fish. 2 MR. : All right. And would 3 that be caught on the cell search if they were 4 being conducted though? 5 MR. : Not all the time. 6 MR. : No? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : And how would they miss 9 that? 10 MR. : What if I don't search that 11 cell today? 12 MR. : No I'm saying during the 13 cell searches. Like if they search their cell. 14 MR. : If they see the fishing line? 15 Yeah. 16 MR. : No-no-no. Not if they 17 see a fishing line. But if a cell is being 18 searched -- 19 MR. : And it has excessive linen? 20 MR. : And it has - would they 21 take it at that point? 22 MR. : Yeah. Usually they take it. 23 Yeah. 24 MR. : Okay. Anything else 25 they're allowed to have? EFTA00111240

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r- 1 MR. : Books. Food. Yeah. 2 MR. : All right. Do you know 3 if Epstein was given any special privileges to 4 have extra clothing or extra linens? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : No? Do you know if he 7 had extra clothing or extra linens? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : Who was making sure that 10 Epstein had the correct amount of clothing and 11 linens? 12 MR. : Not sure. 13 MR. : Would it be like the SHU 14 staff or the lieutenant or all of the above? 15 The SHU lieutenant? 16 MR. : I'm not sure. 17 MR. : Working in the SHU 18 though, or previously, you don't know who would 19 -? 20 MR. : Who is mentoring it? I mean. 21 MR. : Like who would be - who's 22 responsible? Not let - sounds like - looks 23 like no one was monitoring it but who was 24 actually responsible to make sure him and these 25 guys aren't supposed to have that many - that EFTA00111241

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 much clothing or linen. 2 MR. : I'm not sure. Because when 3 we used to do linen, you give me three, I give 4 you three. That's how we used to monitor it. 5 MR. : Yes. It's supposed to be 6 like a one-for-one exchange. 7 MR. : Yeah. So I don't know who's 8 responsible to keep an eye on his things 9 though. I uh 10 MR. : Typically who provides 11 inmates with their linens? 12 MR. : Staff. 13 MR. : Do lieutenants ever do 14 that? 15 MR. : No. Not really. 16 MR. : So it would be the staff 17 that's responsible then huh? 18 MR. : Yeah. That's why I say 19 (Indiscernible *03:12:15) responsibility I 20 guess then. 21 MR. : Okay. Does the SHU 22 lieutenant ever do it? 23 MR. : I mean, it could. I could if 24 I want to. 25 MR. : Yeah. But typically it EFTA00111242

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 255 1 would be the SHU staff? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. Any idea how 4 Epstein's interactions were with other inmates? 5 Did he ever have interactions with other 6 inmates really? 7 MR. : I don't know. I know when he 8 first got there, he told me some guy he was 9 nervous because his face was on the TV. And 10 guys might be trying to intimidate him. That's 11 about it though. 12 MR. : That was something he - 13 Epstein specifically told you? 14 MR. : He told the officer and then 15 the officer told me. He said, hey I didn't 16 know who he was. I was like alright. Let me 17 look into it. And then they moved him. 18 MR. : Where was he? 19 MR. : He was on - his first unit 20 think was 11 North. 21 MR. : So was he then in general 22 population? 23 MR. : When he first came here, he 24 was general population. 25 MR. : All right. So people EFTA00111243

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 that tell us that he was in the SHU the entire 2 time are incorrect? 3 MR. : When he first got through, he 4 was in general population. 5 MR. : And for how long was he 6 in general population? 7 MR. : Say about a day or two. 8 MR. : And are you the one that 9 actually moved him into the SHU? 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Who did that? 12 MR. : I don't know. 13 MR. : All right. But an 14 officer reported it to you? And then you -? 15 MR. : Yeah. I know he was in 16 general population. 17 MR. : And what did you do with 18 the information when that was told? 19 MR. : What? 20 MR. : You said an officer said 21 he's worried about safety. 22 MR. : Yeah. I spoke to him. 23 MR. : You spoke to Epstein? 24 MR. : I wanted to know I said 25 what's going on. I said alright, we going to EFTA00111244

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r - 1 look into this. And then they moved him. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : But I guess my question 5 was did you report that information to someone? 6 And then it was - a person? 7 MR. : I don't remember. I know I 8 passed it on. I said hey, this guy, I think 9 he's high profile. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Look into it I think by the 12 captain or someone got together and they moved 13 him. Put him in place in the SHU. 14 MR. : Okay. And when was the 15 last time you interacted with Epstein? 16 MR. : I can't recall. 17 MR. : Did you have any 18 interactions with him on August 9th? 19 MR. : I could have. I don't know. 20 He's right there on the floor. So I could 21 have. 22 MR. : But you don't know. So 23 again, dude dies the next day. You can't 24 remember if the day before you talked with this 25 guy when it's like the biggest case ever? EFTA00111245

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 1 MR. : yeah. 2 MR. : You don't remember? 3 MR. : Uh-huh. `Cause I brung him 4 up to SHU a few times. But I don't know if I 5 did that day. 6 MR. : I'm just saying that kind 7 of sparks a little suspicion if -- 8 MR. : I know what you're saying. 9 MR. : -- it's like - if it's 10 like you can't even remember the last - if you 11 talked to him on that day - the day before. 12 MR. : I mean it's a big case. 13 get that. But I mean, you know, I have a job 14 like you know? 15 MR. : Yeah-yeah. I mean, I'm 16 just saying that that's going to create a 17 little -. 18 MR. : Yeah but I cannot remember if 19 I spoke to that dude that day. 20 MR. : Do you remember when was 21 the last time you saw him? 22 MR. : No. I'm probably assuming 23 that day. If he was in attorney conference. 24 MR. : Um. And is that because 25 you would have visited attorney conference? EFTA00111246

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 1 MR. : Yeah. The elevator is right 2 there. I'm on the third floor here. Attorney 3 conference is there. If I wait right here in 4 the elevator, I see him. He's in the same room 5 every day. 6 MR. : But you can't remember if 7 you actually spoke with him on that day? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : Would you typically speak 10 with him when he was in attorney conference? 11 MR. : The only time I used to speak 12 to him is if they say hey, you can bring this. 13 Hey, you going to SHU? Can you take him up? 14 All right. Come on. 15 MR. : All right. 16 MR. : Can I ask a question on that? 17 MR. : Yes. Please do. 18 MR. : Just in case, I mean I know 19 you said you don't remember, but that's his 20 last day. That's the last time you saw him. 21 Do you remember who he was with that day? 22 MR. : His lawyers. 23 MR. : Do you remember his demeanor? 24 MR. : Mm. 25 MR. : Was he upset? Was he EFTA00111247

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 yelling? Did he complain about anything? 2 MR. : He used to sleep a lot. 3 That's all I know. Sometimes you see him in 4 there, he's just laying on the table. His 5 lawyer is right there. 6 MR. : While he's with his 7 attorneys? 8 MR. : He was there -. He used to 9 be there from 8 from in the morning time all 10 the way to day watch and evening watch. 11 MR. : Around what time would he 12 show up there? 13 MR. : Early. He'd be the first one 14 there. 15 MR. : And what time would that 16 be? 17 MR. : 8:00, 8:30. 18 MR. : And then what time would 19 he typically go back to the SHU? 20 MR. : Before - or attorney 21 conference over at 8:00. So about 8:00 22 MR. : So basically 8:00 a.m. to 23 8:00 p.m.? And who were the people that would 24 take him to attorney conference and then take 25 him back to the SHU? EFTA00111248

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 1 MR. : I told you. Like I said, 2 I've done it sometimes. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : But typically, hey get the 5 guy ready in SHU. Bring him down. If R&D's 6 out there, hey we got to move him. You know. 7 I'll take him down. 8 MR. : Mm-hm. 9 MR. : Whoever's going that way. 10 MR. : Did you take him either 11 there to attorney conference or back to the SHU 12 on August 9th? 13 MR. : I don't think so. I can't 14 recall. 15 MR. : Were you still at the MCC 16 at around 8:00 p.m. on August 9th? 17 MR. : No. I wasn't there at 8:00. 18 MR. : And what time do you 19 believe that you left MCC on August 9th? 20 MR. : Uh between 2:00 and 4:00. 21 MR. : Sometime between 2:00 and 22 4:00. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : But you weren't back? So 25 he was in attorney conference all that time. EFTA00111249

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 262 1 So the last time you possibly could have 2 interacted with him would have been around 8:00 3 a.m. Correct? 4 MR. : I mean interacting like 5 talking to him? 6 MR. : Speaking with him. 7 MR. : Yeah. But I don't think I 8 I can't recall if I spoke -. I don't think I 9 spoke to him. But -- 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 11 MR. : I'm not sure if I did or I 12 didn't. 13 MR. : Okay. But -. 14 MR. : The last time would have been 15 I mean -. Yeah. If I stepped into attorney 16 conference and said something. But 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : I don't recall that. 19 MR. : But you don't recall what 20 his demeanor was? Or state of mind? 21 MR. : That day? 22 MR. : Yeah. Um you just 23 mentioned the one thing where he was worried 24 because his - you know -. 25 MR. : Yeah. The first day he got EFTA00111250

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 263 1 here. 2 MR. : He told an officer. 3 MR. : He's saying hey, uh officer, 4 hey there's this guy up here. His face is 5 well we get those calls all the time. 6 MR. : Do you know of any other 7 complaints that he made? Did he ever complain 8 to you or you get any other information about 9 it? 10 MR. : While he was planning on 11 getting off of suicide watch. That's about it. 12 MR. : Okay. And was he making 13 those complaints to you about getting off of 14 suicide watch? 15 MR. : He was just saying hey, why 16 you guys got me like -. I'm like well you talk 17 to psych and then they'll talk to you and they 18 spoke to him and he went back up. 19 MR. : And what was this 20 complaint about? About being -? 21 MR. : He was saying why he was on 22 there yeah. He wanted his clothes and you 23 know. 24 MR. : So he didn't want to be 25 on suicide watch? EFTA00111251

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Is that what you're 3 saying? 4 MR. : No. He didn't want to. 5 MR. : So he wanted to go back 6 to the SHU? 7 MR. : Well he wanted to go -. 8 Yeah. 9 MR. : Do you know if he wanted 10 to be on the SHU? Or did he want to be in a 11 different area? 12 MR. : I don't know. 13 MR. : Did he ever tell that to 14 you? 15 MR. : No. Not to me. 16 MR. : Do you ever -? Do you 17 believe that he was in the correct place in the 18 SHU? Or do you believe he should have been on 19 like 10 South or G Tier? 20 MR. : I mean he can't be in G Tier. 21 Can't be in 10 South. He got to have a Bunkie, 22 right? 23 MR. : Well. I guess. It 24 depends on Do you know what the reason why 25 he would need a Bunkie? EFTA00111252

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 1 MR. : His suicide attempt. 2 Hotlist. 3 MR. : Do you ever put people 4 that are suicide attempts or hotlist in G Tier 5 or 10 South, so they have extra eyes on them? 6 MR. : Mm. I don't think. No one 7 in 10 South is on the hotlist. I don't recall. 8 MR. : What about G Tier? 9 What's their -? Who? What's the deal with G 10 Tier? Like who goes -- 11 MR. : Single cells. 12 MR. in there? 13 MR. : Single cells. 14 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. But they 15 have cameras in there, right? Every one of 16 them gets - just like 10 South - but -? 17 MR. : Yeah but uh 9 South some of 18 the - some cameras in some of those. Psych 19 cells. 20 MR. : Do you believe Epstein 21 should have been in a cell with a camera in it? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : No? 24 MR. : I mean yeah, if you have to 25 have two. The ones with the cameras is single EFTA00111253

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 1 cell. You can't go there. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 3 MR. : You know? 4 MR. : So you believe he should 5 have had a cellmate and he should have been in 6 the regular SHU? Because we've had other 7 people say should have been on G tier. Should 8 have been on 10 South. But you believe -. 9 MR. : People are saying - I mean - 10 if you try to commit - like you just showed me 11 the memo. Right? So either he needs an extra 12 set of eyes on him and then the - that's even 13 worse. I'm going to put you in there by 14 yourself? You saying? For an extended time? 15 MR. : I guess but so people are 16 saying because officers are watching those 17 people at all times. Is that -? Are they 18 watching them at all times? 19 MR. : How? 20 MR. : On the cameras I don't 21 know. 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : SO they're not actually 24 being monitored? 25 MR. : They can't watch. No one can EFTA00111254

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 1 watch someone all the time. No. 2 MR. : Okay. So you think that 3 it would have been just as risky or if not more 4 risky with him being in G Tier or 10 South? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. Do 7 you know why Epstein was in prison? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Why? 10 MR. : Uh underage trafficking. 11 Child molestation. Charges like that. 12 MR. : And did you have any 13 specific feelings regarding why he was in 14 prison? 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : How often would you speak 17 with Epstein? 18 MR. Uh whenever I needed to. 19 MR. : All right. Any kind of 20 conversation that had any substance to it? 21 Like a substantive conversation? Anything that 22 was like more than just like below? 23 MR. : Nah. 24 MR. : No? and you said you did 25 not work at all on August 20th? EFTA00111255

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 1 MR. : That's the day it happened, 2 right? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : I wasn't there. 5 MR. : And then you were 6 definitely gone by then - from the MCC 7 4:00 p.m. on August 9th? 8 MR. : I think so yeah. I think so. 9 MR. : And you may have bene 10 gone as early as 2:00 p.m. you just can't 11 recall? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : When was you next shift? 14 MR. : Mm. That happened on what - 15 Saturday? 16 MR. : Yeah. He was found on a 17 Saturday. 18 MR. : He died on Saturday, right? 19 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 20 MR. : Saturday. I don't know if 21 came in Sunday. I think I came in Sunday. 22 MR. : Okay. And did you at 23 that time did you speak with anybody about 24 Epstein's death? 25 MR. : I mean I knew about it. EFTA00111256

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 1 Everyone was talking about it. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. So what 3 was your understanding about how he died? 4 MR. : He hung himself. 5 MR. : Do you know anything 6 about anyone else taking his life? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : No? Do you know anything 9 about anyone assisting with taking his life? 10 MR. : Nah. 11 MR. : No. Do you believe that 12 Epstein took his own life? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Do you believe that 15 Epstein acted alone in taking his own life? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : All right. Then there's 18 only three more questions here. They're more 19 open-ended. What do you believe would have 20 prevented Epstein from dying? 21 MR. : Nothing. 22 MR. : Nothing? Do you think 23 that if he was - wanted to take his life he 24 would have done it? 25 MR. : If it was a regular inmate, I EFTA00111257

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 1 don't even think we would be - you know. 2 MR. : Um what are some of the 3 systematic problems inside the MCC? And 4 specifically the SHU that allowed for Epstein 5 to die? 6 MR. Mm. Systematic problems. 7 MR. : You know like -. 8 MR. : It sound like a union 9 question or something like that. 10 MR. : Well no it because like I 11 told you, we're trying to look into like. He 12 man, you're right. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : If another inmate died, 15 we're probably not going to be here talking to 16 you. But this is high-profile. We now need to 17 figure out what went wrong here. How do we fix 18 it? So in your opinion, what went wrong here? 19 MR. : I mean. 20 MR. : And how do we fix it? 21 We're from the government. We're here to help. 22 MR. : Yeah. My opinion, the whole 23 cellmate leaving. That's not on nobody. I'm 24 not. If I have the notice he had up until that 25 time and left for one day. Then this happens. EFTA00111258

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 271 1 I can't blame lieutenant, staff, notifications. 2 You know. Remember there's like 900 inmates in 3 there. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : I know he's high-profile, but 6 we also have to monitor other inmates. The 7 round situation. If that's true. That could 8 have been a little bit you know You've got 9 to make rounds in SHU. 10 MR. : Counts too though, right? 11 MR. : You've got to make rounds and 12 counts. 13 MR. : Now going back to there. 14 You say it's not on anybody. But if he's - 15 psychology is saying he's required to have a 16 cellmate. It's got to be on somebody. Right? 17 If he's on the hotlist. He's in SHU where he's 18 supposed to have a cellmate anyway. And 19 psychology is saying he's got to have a 20 cellmate. It's got to fall to somebody to make 21 sure. Hey, who is supposed to make sure this 22 guy has got a cellmate? His cellmate is gone. 23 He doesn't have a cell mate. 24 MR. : Mm-hm. 25 MR. : Because -. EFTA00111259

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 272 1 MR. : So if I know. If I get the 2 notice by 8:00. Right? So I'm evening watch 3 ops. I get the notice. Hey, this guy doesn't 4 have a cellmate. All right. What's my call? 5 I just throw him in there with anybody? 6 MR. : My thought - and from 7 talking to other people - are supposed to be 8 that SHU staff should have notified the ops 9 lieutenant or the activities' lieutenant. Who 10 then should have notified the captain? 11 MR. : Yeah. At 8:00. I could see 12 that. But at that time on day watch, hm-mm. 13 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 14 MR. : It's a judgment call. 15 MR. : And I'm not talking about 16 at 8:00 a.m. I'm saying like what you just 17 said -- 18 MR. : I want to say we can't 19 (Indiscernible *03:24:48) notice. 20 MR. : -- you don't think that 21 the cellmate thing should be on anybody. Well 22 but it's like it's got to be on somebody. If 23 he's required to have a cellmate, somebody's 24 got to make sure he's got a cellmate. 25 MR. : Yeah. Yeah but what if I EFTA00111260

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 273 1 don't -. Remember these guys don't even - the 2 guys on evening watch wasn't even sure it was 3 right. It was overtime. I know 4 MR. : Well no, I'm not talking 5 6 MR. : I think worked -. 7 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I'm 8 talking it was 9 MR. : But if I'm the OIC. 10 MR. : I think and Noel. 11 MR. : He wasn't even in custody at 12 that time no more. 13 MR. : All right. So but you 14 got -. Tova Noel who -- 15 MR. : Mm-hm. 16 MR. : -- that's her quarterly 17 post. 18 MR. : She did a double that day, 19 right? 20 MR. : Well she - but yea but at 21 8:00 p.m. that was her first shift, right? 22 MR. : Mm-hm. 23 MR. : So we're talking - we're 24 not now talking about morning watch. We're 25 talking about - you're saying 8:00 p.m., right? EFTA00111261

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : So that's evening watch. 3 So we're looking at -. Where are we looking 4 at? 5 MR. : So if I know - if I'm 6 notified by 8:00. And I call the captain. Say 7 hey, this guy don't -. What's my next move 8 then? Throw him in there with anybody? Or 0? 9 MR. : Yeah, so we have 10 Noel, and 11 MR. : Mm-hm. 12 MR. : So yeah, I guess-. 13 MR. : I mean I can see them saying 14 - whoever said that. Because they say hey, 15 kick it up. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : You know. Kick it up. Kick 18 the blame up top. Now if I'm on, what do you 19 want me to do? Throw the guy in there with 20 anybody? Just because he have to have a 21 cellmate? 22 MR. : Well some people have 23 said that at the very least they would have put 24 him on like a dry cell type of a situation 25 where you've got a staff member on him until he EFTA00111262

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 1 can get placed with a cellmate. 2 MR. : Yeah. But that's a 3 questionable move too. 4 MR. : Um. 5 MR. : You want me to take him and 6 put him on - you know? 7 MR. : So you believe - so 1 8 guess. What is your belief then? 9 MR. : I mean there was a time and 10 opportunity. Guy wanted to take his life. The 11 inmate left. He saw the time and opportunity. 12 He did it. The officers - you know. 13 MR. : But don't -? 14 MR. : Uh yeah. 15 MR. : -- do you believe though 16 as a correctional officer it's the 17 responsibility to ensure that we ensure that 18 they don't die in our custody? 19 MR. : Well that's what the rounds 20 is for. That's why it's so important. 21 MR. : All right. So that's why 22 you think it's really the rounds and the count. 23 Not necessarily the cellmate but the rounds and 24 the counts. 25 MR. : Well in SHU, you required to EFTA00111263

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 1 do it. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : You have to do it. It's for 4 the inmate. 5 MR. : And if they're not doing 6 the rounds - the 30-minute rounds - that's 7 really the blame here? 8 MR. : That's a bad situation. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : It's a bad situation. 11 MR. : So you blame it on the 12 rounds way more than you would blame it on the 13 cellmate? 14 MR. : That's it. The cellmate, he 15 ain't here. Yeah. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : You know I mean that 18 happened. It's the same thing. I understand 19 they sent out the notification. There's no 20 time for any more than that. 21 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 22 MR. : Is an inmate goes hey, you 23 know, by the way, this guy was on - you sent 24 this out a month ago. He's not suicidal no 25 more. He said it. It's like you know. EFTA00111264

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 1 MR. : Well in this case I think 2 it was like 9 days. But yeah. 3 MR. : Yeah. But there's still no 4 timeframe. Some guys say they suicidal just to 5 get out of SHU and play the game. Go back in. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : But it's never saying hey 8 this guy is not. There's no memo saying he 9 does need a cellmate. 10 MR. : Would you agree though 11 that it's both? The fact that the was require 12 to have a cellmate and they weren't conducting 13 rounds? 14 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 15 MR. : And that's where - when I 16 talk about the problems. 17 MR. : The thing is, that happened, 18 but it's - that can happen. Hey oh. His 19 Bunkie left. I didn't put a cellmate. That 20 can happen. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : You know. That can happen 23 here. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : You get inmates that was EFTA00111265

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 1 crying on level two. Hey, got to have a 2 cellmate. You moved him? Yeah. Oh you ain't 3 check? Oh you know. 4 MR. : Yeah. So I think what I 5 understand you saying is that the primary issue 6 is not doing rounds. Secondary and a much 7 lesser issue was that they didn't fill up his 8 cellmate. Is that correct? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. And are there any 11 other problems or violations occurring inside 12 the MCC that we should be made aware of? 13 MR. : Mm. 14 MR. : We're talking about the 15 MCC. 16 MR. : Violations? 17 MR. : Anything that we should 18 have known about that you think needs to be 19 fixed. 20 MR. : You got mandated. I know 21 that. You're working. 22 MR. : So there's - is what 23 you're saying then that they're severely 24 understaffed? 25 MR. : They was. I don't know how EFTA00111266

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 1 it is now. Buy they was. 2 MR. : And again when did you 3 leave there? 4 MR. Uh December '19. 5 MR. : December of 2019? At 6 that point they were still extremely over -? 7 MR. : Extremely. 8 MR. : What about - was there 9 anything that was being fixed ever since when 10 Epstein died and August of 2019. Did you see 11 anything being fixed by that point? 12 MR. : Uh. They did change the log. 13 I know that. 14 MR. : What does that mean? 15 MR. : They started putting inmates 16 that go to court. Just in case. We started 17 doing them and started attaching the PP38 to 18 the log. 19 MR. : So they would almost be 20 part of the outcount? 21 MR. : No. You could see. You 22 could see all the movement. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : You know. You could see all 25 the movement. They started single cell memos. EFTA00111267

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 280 1 Every time I need to know- every night. 2 Because I worked the morning. Every night I 3 need the -. Hey whose up there - single cell? 4 That was an every night thing. We started that 5 um. More rounds. More reiteration of doing 6 your rounds. Um. I know the rounds. They got 7 tighter with the rounds. The log. Mm. It was 8 some things. There were some things. As far 9 as staff, I think they did hire a class like 10 right before. But um. You know. 11 MR. : Now has that just been a 12 constant problem with um with the MCC with 13 being able to like fill -? 14 MR. : I mean that's Yeah. 15 That's been a problem for a while. It wasn't 16 like that when I first got there though. 17 MR. : And what is - why do you 18 think it's so hard to keep that place staffed? 19 MR. : Well uh I think they can't 20 compete. It's the pay. They're not competing 21 with other agencies. It's a tough job. 22 Working there is tough. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : It's not easy. I'll tell you 25 that. EFTA00111268

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 MR. : What it makes it so 2 tough? 3 MR. : You've got some unruly 4 inmates. 5 MR. : Yep. 6 MR. : You got a lot of unruly 7 inmates. You doing some long hours. 8 MR. : Are they doing long hours 9 though because it's understaffed? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : And that's what I mean. 12 So it sounds to me, I mean an outsider's 13 perspective. Is that they need a lot more 14 employees. 15 MR. : No. They need that 16 definitely more employees. 17 MR. : Is there a way for us to 18 not only get employees but get good employees? 19 What would be a solution there? 20 MR. : I mean you got to recruit. 21 You got to take people that really want to do 22 the job. 23 MR. : Um. 24 MR. : I mean it takes some people 25 that. You know. Say hey, you can make this EFTA00111269

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 1 your first year. Just going to put some work 2 in it. You've got people that want it. You 3 know. That wants the money. 4 MR. : You think that it means 5 they should have like a higher pay at the MCC? 6 And the MDC? 7 MR. : Higher pay or you look for 8 people that are looking for opportunity. You 9 know. 10 MR. : Like as in make it like a 11 rotating place? You have to do a certain 12 amount of time there and then you can go to 13 like your choice location afterwards? 14 MR. : I mean. 15 MR. : What do you mean by 16 opportunity? I guess I should say. 17 MR. : Like I don't know. I know 18 the - I think it's a (Indiscernible *03:32:28) 19 problem there. Or credit something like that. 20 Is it? I don't know. I'm not sure. 21 MR. : I have -. We've 22 definitely talked to people that don't have 23 bachelor's degrees. 24 MR. : Yeah. But I think they have 25 um credits. I think they change it for EFTA00111270

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 credits. 2 MR. : Yeah. Some people have 3 said some college. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : That we've talked to that 6 they don't have -. 7 MR. : I think -. 8 MR. : I don't think I've talked 9 to anybody that said they didn't have any 10 college. But I mean I think it was like a 11 couple credits. You know. 12 MR. : Yeah. But I mean some people 13 without college, it's one opportunity to say 14 hey, you can make $60,000 your first year. I 15 just need you to show up and work. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Follow the rules. You know. 18 And the credit check I think was getting a lot 19 of people. 20 MR. : Is that right? 21 MR. : Yeah. Credit checks. I 22 think that's what weeds out a lot of people. 23 MR. : Now do you believe though 24 - on that note - if we're not doing credit 25 checks, we're letting that slide. Wouldn't EFTA00111271

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 that breed a potential problem with 2 introduction of contraband and being paid you 3 know for brining things in? 4 MR. : Bribery and stuff? 5 MR. : Yeah. Because that's a 6 big problem in the BOP. 7 MR. : Yeah. But I think that's -. 8 I mean you've got some people in there I mean. 9 That don't work. That don't. no. you could 10 be. I seen people get arrested with good 11 credit. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Six figures - making six 14 figures and do some corrupt stuff. 15 MR. : Right-right. 16 MR. : So. That's not it. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : I'm not saying take everyone. 19 But you know. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : It's like if you renting to 22 somebody and you a landlord. And you say 23 alright, I know you ain't got the top score, 24 but I see you pay your bills on time. You had 25 a little student loan debt here or whatever. EFTA00111272

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 285 1 I'll give you a shot. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : You know. 4 MR. : What have you got? 5 MR. : You mentioned that you saw 6 Epstein in the conference room. 7 MR. : Attorney conference. Yeah. 8 MR. : And sometimes he was 9 sleeping. 10 MR. : It looked like he was 11 sleeping. He would lay down on the table like 12 that. 13 MR. : Is that normal for inmates to 14 be sleep in the conference room? 15 MR. : To sleep? No. that's not 16 normal. Most guys is trying to get out. Saying 17 hey, you need to do this and do that. 18 MR. : Did anyone ever tell him to 19 wake up or address it? 20 MR. : I don't think so. 21 MR. : The reason I ask is like was 22 that a privilege that was allowed to Epstein? 23 To do that? 24 MR. : No. It wasn't a privilege. 25 I think the being that he was there from early EFTA00111273

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 1 in the morning to whatever time. The lawyers 2 probably like alright, let's look over this. 3 And he probably laying, and I'll wait until 4 y'all finished. And then alright, let's go. 5 But he also gets to buy out the vending machine 6 too. At first. 7 MR. : The vending machine? 8 MR. : Yeah. He used to get all his 9 snacks. 10 MR. : Yeah. Because you weren't 11 allowed to give him food in there right? 12 MR. : In the SHU? You got food. 13 MR. : Not in SHU. 14 MR. : In attorney -. 15 MR. : Attorney conference. I 16 was told that he basically had to get his own 17 food from the vending machines. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Was he allowed -? Would 20 people feed him - the BOP food - when he was in 21 attorney conference? Would they bring him a 22 tray? 23 MR. : Mm. No. I don't think so. 24 I don't even think he even at that. I'm not 25 sure. I don't even know if he even ate the BOP EFTA00111274

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 287 1 food. He probably just ate commissary. 2 MR. : Oh so there's a 3 commissary he could go to? 4 MR. : Sure. You could go to 5 commissary in SHU. 6 MR. : No. I'm talking about 7 because 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. he was always 8 with attorney conference. 9 MR. : Yeah. So he used to get 10 drinks and chips - snack food. 11 MR. : And that's what he would 12 just eat all day? 13 MR. : I don't know about all day. 14 But I know you know he'll have a - hey, make 15 sure when the lawyers come, they get his sodas 16 and drinks and they get us his chips. 17 MR. : Hm. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Do you know anything 20 about would he eat before he would go and then 21 be afforded a tray as soon as he got back to 22 SHU? 23 MR. Uh. I mean yeah . but that 24 wouldn't be -. That wouldn't be kind of 25 common. That's what any legal visit that we EFTA00111275

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 1 used to do. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I'm just 3 saying if he's 7 days a week not eating - only 4 eating a bag of chips or something from 8:00 5 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., that seems like he'd get a 6 little more hungry than that. 7 MR. : Yeah. I don't know. I don't 8 know - I don't recall him getting a tray in 9 there though. 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No. 11 MR. : Yeah. I don't know. 12 MR. : I don't know if he was or 13 not. That's why I was asking. 14 MR. : Yeah. But if he comes back 15 from there and they said hey that's my tray 16 from earlier and if he was in legal visit, we 17 would give it to him. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : I mean that's common 20 practice. 21 MR. : Let's say - once Reyes left 22 that morning. 23 MR. : Who? 24 MR. : Reyes. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111276

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 1 MR. : Once he left that morning, I 2 know there's like a sheet that keeps track of 3 all the inmates in the SHU. Right? They have 4 like a bed count sheet. 5 MR. : Bed book count. 6 MR. : Bed book count. Would that 7 book need to be updated? 8 MR. : That he left? Yeah. 9 MR. : Whose responsibility would 10 that have been? 11 MR. : Uh. I don't know officers. 12 MR. : So officers should have 13 updated it. Now let's say they went in 4:00 14 p.m. count. And then 9:00 p.m. count - god 15 forbid there was something off with the count. 16 They would have to pull out eh bed book and 17 verify it. Right? 18 MR. : If you get two bad counts. 19 MR. : Two bad counts. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : But if no one updated the 22 book, would that be an issue? 23 MR. : Well if you get two bad 24 counts, you've got to a bed book. And then 25 you'll find discrepancy. But then again, you EFTA00111277

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 1 know who usually updates the bed book count? 2 MR. : The lieutenant? 3 MR. : Morning watch. Because I'm 4 now - this is the new day - 12:01. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : This person's not here. Now 7 I know for a fact that this is what I'm 8 starting my day with - for the whole day. 9 MR. : I was going to show one - the 10 same document. You mentioned that when you 11 were working the SHU around 2:00 a.m. you would 12 have got the court document. Right? The 13 attorney would have brought it up. Or someone 14 would have brought up the document. 15 MR. : Yeah. It comes up on morning 16 watch. 17 MR. : If - I mean and we don't know 18 for sure if that was the same happening. Who 19 would have got that notification at 2:00 a.m. 20 on August 9th? 21 MR. : About the paperwork? 22 MR. : About the court documents. 23 MR. : Uh probably internal. 24 MR. : No who in the SHU. Who was 25 in the SHU at that point? Who would have EFTA00111278

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291 1 gotten notified? Hey, listen Reyes is meeting 2 me in the morning. 3 MR. : Uh. and Thomas. 4 MR. -: Thomas? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And let's say the morning 7 came around. The shift changes and -. Who 8 would have notified um - they got the document? 9 They - Reyes is leaving. 10 MR. : Mm-hm. 11 MR. : Who would have notified 12 control or kept track of the fact that Reyes is 13 walking out of there? 14 MR. : And again I told you, see if 15 you don't - it's not a thought. It's not 16 coming on my radar until -. 17 MR. : No. I'm not saying that. 18 But who in the SHU would have been responsible? 19 MR. : Someone in the SHU like I 20 said evening watch around 8:00. If they're 21 saying hey, R&D they weren't back? Make sure 22 our count is right. But um. Yeah. 23 MR. : That's it. I just had to 24 clarify that. Thank you. 25 MR. : But just because Thomas EFTA00111279

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 292 1 and got that sheet, it doesn't mean 2 that they would have done anything at that 3 time, right? Wouldn't it have been the next 4 shift to get -? Who would have gotten him 5 ready to do at 8:30? 6 MR. : Well depending on what time. 7 I mean they could do it at 6:00. 8 MR. : They being? 9 MR. : Hey, whoever comes in at 10 6:00. Hey, he got court. 11 MR. : All right. So they would 12 have been the guys that probably getting 13 everybody ready to go to court? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Okay. At least giving 16 them notice. 17 MR. : Who was on shift to get Reyes 18 ready? If he left around 8:00. 19 MR. : Uh 20 Monge. 21 MR. • was though? 22 MR. was there at 6:00 23 yeah. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : He was SHU 3. EFTA00111280

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 293 1 MR. : Okay. At 6:00 a.m.? 2 MR. Yep. I see - wait. So I see 3 he notified his relief is what he's saying. 4 Right? was his relief at 2:00. 5 MR. : Yeah. According to that 6 memo. 7 MR. : Yeah. I mean yeah. It's one 8 of those situations. 9 MR. : That's all I got. 10 MR. : Okay. Cool. Anything 11 you got (Indiscernible *03:40:03). We had a 12 really long interview here. So I apologize for 13 that. But we do appreciate you bearing with 14 us. All right. It is 4:46 p.m. on Monday, 15 July 12, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 16 and I am turning off the 17 recorder. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00111281

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 294 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Marci Bratton, Transcriber EFTA00111282