101 1 : Yes. 2 : -- card -- 3 : Yeah. 4 : -- is that something that 5 just is common knowledge, if someone has an 6 orange card, a Lieutenant should know, he's got 7 an orange card, he needs a cell mate? 8 : Right. But then again, also, 9 it was high visibility guys on - what do you 10 call that? - on -- 11 : Ten South? 12 no. On G. 13 : Oh, okay. The 14 : On that 15 : -- the one inmate. 16 : -- that one occupancy. So, 17 with the guidance I had put out, I got to give 18 you that e-mail. 19 : Okay. 20 : That e-mail was saying that, 21 hey, these guys with these orange cards, you 22 need to ensure high visibility vigilance. 23 : So - all right - so -- 24 : Ensure that these guys, you 25 know, are alive, and all of this, you know, EFTA00060073

102 1 report any, you know, I went into detail with 2 that. 3 : Okay. So, maybe not, if 4 it's an orange card, it doesn't necessarily 5 mean, then, that they require a cell mate, they 6 just require 7 : Higher - or higher 8 supervision. 9 : Okay. So, you just need 10 to know what they're doing at all times, and 11 make sure that they're okay? 12 : Yeah. 13 : All right. So, in this 14 instance, it wouldn't be, necessarily, cell 15 mate. It would be everybody knows keep an eye 16 on Epstein, make sure that he's -- 17 : That is correct. 18 all right. So, 19 is the only one that you can specifically 20 recall 21 : Yes. 22 : -- and again, what you 23 said -? 24 : And then, again, when I went 25 on evening watch, morning watch, those shifts, EFTA00060074

103 1 when I had those teams together, yeah, I would 2 talk about vigilance after doing 30 minute 3 rounds. Making sure this is done. Making sure 4 that is done. 5 : Okay. 6 : Making sure this guy -. You 7 know, that's what I did. 8 : Okay. 9 : Because that's what 10 wanted. So, I did it. 11 : All right. And then, 12 again, just to make sure that I'm not 13 misunderstanding you. You said you talked to 14 specifically about it, but when you did 15 visit the SHU, not only were you telling them 16 to keep high visibility on Epstein, were you 17 also telling them, the people that you did 18 interact with, that he needed to have a cell 19 mate? 20 : Yes. 21 : Okay. 22 : Yes. 23 : On Friday, August 9th - 24 or sorry - when is the last time, can you 25 recall, that you had that conversation with the EFTA00060075

104 1 SHU staff? 2 : I can't remember, sir. 3 : No problem. 4 : I don't remember. Because 5 like I said, that guidance came out between the 6 time of him being upon his release from suicide 7 watch from that last time, to the time during 8 the time that we was doing the vetting for the 9 cell mate. 10 : So -? 11 : So, it was, you know, it was 12 a short period of time that this guidance and 13 these conversations took place. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : And then, the reinforcement 16 was when we would walk through the unit and 17 just do rounds. And then, I'm, like, hey, this 18 is a high visibility guy, why this guy got 19 trays in the cell? Extra trays in his cell. 20 Why this guy got this? So then, of course, you 21 know, a lot of people at MCC, they didn't like 22 me because I was trying to hold people 23 accountable. But I didn't always write people 24 up. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00060076

105 1 : That's how I did, I came up 2 like that. I'm trying to help you. People 3 thought me trying to just talk to them about 4 Correctional Services, or trying, giving them 5 little, you know, helping them out, talking to 6 them, you know, that I was trying to be the 7 know-all, be-all, be that guy. You know? You 8 know, you're not sociable, but now you're down 9 here, telling us what to do. You're not one of 10 those. That's the way it felt like. So, like, 11 again, I can give you the playbook to success. 12 But if you don't read it, it's just words. 13 : Sure. 14 : It's just words. And then, I 15 had a lot of issues with the Lieutenants. You 16 know, Lieutenants, you know, were self-serving, 17 even though, in my previous statement, I would 18 never say anything statements to hurt them. 19 I'm not doing that. But what I'll tell you 20 was, the relationship between me and the 21 Lieutenant core was not good. So, again, as we 22 move forward through today, you know, the 23 statements that I make is not to try to put 24 blame or try to hurt anybody. The only thing 25 I'm doing is, is telling you that, when the EFTA00060077

106 1 Warden gave me direction, he said he wanted X, 2 Y, and Z, and X, Y, Z. Not only did I talk to 3 staff, I also re-enforced it by putting out 4 emails, because I know I can't catch everybody, 5 and I know that staff is going to blow you off. 6 I mean, like, yeah, whatever. I'm glad he out 7 the unit. Let's go ahead and go back to 8 whatever we was doing. It's what it is. 9 : Sure. And just so you 10 know, just to give you a little bit of peace of 11 mind, we're asking you the questions directly. 12 You're not placing blame on anybody. 13 : Right. 14 : So, if we ask you 15 : Yeah. 16 : -- like -- 17 : Okay. 18 : -- if they were 19 responsible or something, that's not on you. 20 : Oh, okay. Well, I just 21 wanted to -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- because I didn't 24 understand that. 25 : Yeah, yeah. EFTA00060078

107 1 2 3 4 here - I mean -- was responsible : -- Because like I said, I'm not : I mean, we might say who 5 : Right. 6 : -- or did they drop the 7 ball? 8 : Right. 9 : But that's us asking you 10 a direct question. Not you coming to us, 11 saying, it was this guy's fault. 12 : Right. 13 : You know, we're 14 specifically asking you. So, just 15 : Oh, okay. Yeah. 16 : -- you know? 17 : That's what I didn't 18 understand. 19 : But -. 20 : And that's not what I'm - I 21 mean, I'm not here for that. I'm just 22 : Right. 23 I'm just here -- 24 : I mean, we do have to 25 figure out -- EFTA00060079

108 1 : You know? 2 : -- who did drop the ball 3 here. 4 : Yeah. 5 : But that's not - you're 6 not coming to us. We're coming to you. 7 : Right. I understand. 8 : So, "On Friday, August 9, 9 2019, was on leave, and thus, 10 there was no dedicated Lieutenant assigned to 11 the SHU." 12 : That is correct. 13 : "In this event, the 14 Operations Lieutenant, 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- had oversight that 17 day, and took over the responsibilities of the 18 SHU Lieutenant." 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : So, what time did - can 21 you look at the - on August 9th - what times 22 that he worked on? 23 : The periods that - this is 24 Friday, right? 25 : Correct. August 9th. EFTA00060080

109 1 : I got - so, basically, I have 2 was not there. 3 : Oh. 4 : He was there on that 5 Saturday, which was evening watch on that 6 Saturday. 7 : Did he not work 4:00 p.m. 8 to midnight? 9 : He worked 4:00 p.m. - 10 midnight on that Saturday, the August 10th. 11 : Okay. You can speak. Do 12 you know something different? 13 : No, no, no. I was just 14 clarifying. 15 : Oops, sorry. Can I see 16 the August 9th? 17 : So, who was working on August 18 9th? 19 : August 9th, it appears - I 20 think you got 21 : All right. So, 22 would have been the Ops Lieutenant? 23 : Right. 24 : Well, and then 25 EFTA00060081

110 1 : Yeah. 2 : And then, underneath 3 them, the Activities Lieutenant would have been 4 and then, 5 : Right. 6 : Correct. All right. All 7 right. So, they must have got this wrong 8 somehow. So, it said - so, this is not 9 accurate, when it says in this report - "In 10 this event, the Operations Lieutenant, 11 , had oversight that day and 12 took over responsibilities for the SHU." Who 13 actually had oversight, then, since was 14 out? 15 : That would have been the day 16 watch Operations Lieutenant. 17 : And who was that? 18 The day watch Operations 19 Lieutenant for August 9th would have been - it 20 appears it was 21 : So, would have been 22 responsible? 23 : Right. 24 : And is it your 25 understanding that knew that he needed a EFTA00060082

111 1 cell mate? 2 3 I believe so, yes. : Okay. All right. So, 4 that was incorrect, all this stuff about the 5 thing. And then, it goes on to say, 6 n informally advised his Lieutenants that 7 Epstein was not to be housed alone, and 8 emphasized the need to be vigilant about 30- 9 minute checks and unannounced rounds." And 10 that's - you said there was emails about that, 11 as well as when you spoke with your 12 Lieutenants, and when you went to the SHU, 13 specifically? 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : Correct? All right. And 16 you don't remember the last time you did that, 17 but between August -- 18 : No. 19 between July 30th and 20 August 9th, you at least did it a few times? 21 : Right. 22 : Okay. And you think you 23 hit at least all three shifts between that 24 time? 25 : Correct. EFTA00060083

112 1 : Okay. 2 : I believe I did. Yeah. 3 : All right. Inmates, cell 4 mates, and are typically the people that are 5 assigned to the SHU, are they in those three 6 shifts, or you would have hit the people that 7 are assigned between that time period? So, 8 point being, maybe you don't remember 9 specifically, I had a conversation with that 10 person, or that person, or that person, but if 11 they're assigned to SHU, not a temporary duty 12 assignment like an OT -- 13 : Right. 14 • type of assignment, 15 but the people that were assigned there -- 16 : Yeah. 17 that was their duty, 18 too -. 19 : So, like, I remember 20 specifically, I hit day watch. 21 : Right. 22 • • 23 remember or 24 his name. I remember those guys. 25 : Mm-hmm. I Whatever EFTA00060084

113 1 : I know I spoke to . I 2 know I spoke to different guys. The SHU staff 3 that was always up there. 4 : But you just don't 5 specifically remember talking to Noel? 6 : No. 7 : Okay. 8 : She might have been in the 9 background somewhere. 10 : Right. 11 : She could have been there. I 12 don't know. But I don't remember -- 13 : But should have 14 spoken 15 : -- actually -. 16 : -- with her? 17 : Of course. 18 : Okay. 19 : Because that's part of - 20 that's part of the expectations of the unit. 21 If I give you a guidance, your guidance should 22 have been disseminated down to the Officers. 23 : Okay. How about the 24 people - so, we were going to get into this 25 later, but since we're conversing about it now EFTA00060085

114 1 2 3 4 - it looks like Reyes was moved - I think his appointment with court was at, like, 8:30, and I think -- : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- he was gone from the 6 institution by -- 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- like, 1:50 p.m. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : Does that sound right? 11 : Something like that. It 12 could have been. 13 : So, who was in the SHU at 14 that time? If he's gone from the institution 15 by, like, 1:50 p.m., who would have -- 16 : So, that would have been 17 : -- who would have -? 18 -- all of your 6:00 to 2:00, 19 and your 8:00 to 4:00 staff. 20 : Okay. 21 : So, that would have been 22 : So, I guess let's go from 23 the top. Who would have been the person in 24 charge at the top level? 25 : That, I mean, as far as - EFTA00060086

115 1 2 3 4 that would have been SHU one, because he would have got the notice that he was supposed to move the guys. : And who was that? 5 : And move the inmate. 6 : And who was that? 7 : It was • 8 • . And what time • 9 was he working from? 10 : He was working from 8:00 to 11 4:00. 12 : So, he was 8:00 to 4:00. 13 And those times are accurate on there, and if 14 some Lieutenants said, oh, we, you know, it 15 says zero to 8:00 -- 16 : Right. 17 : -- but we're actually 18 10:00 p.m. -- 19 : And that's true, but the 20 Officers worked those prescribed shifts. 21 : Okay. 22 : The Lieutenants was given 23 those shifts because of their commutes. 24 : Okay. 25 : Some of them were commuting EFTA00060087

116 1 two hours out. So, for them to come from 2 various parts of New Jersey, or Long Island, 3 you know, as a consensus, we said, hey, I will 4 continue - because that was the previous 5 Administration, the previous Captain put that 6 in for those guys. 7 : Okay. 8 : So, you know, with those 9 conversations, you know, with the Lieutenants, 10 I said, I will keep that. I said, you know, 11 you try to do things - where I came from, we 12 didn't do those things. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : You know, as far as that, you 15 know, the Captain ran his shifts, whatever the 16 shift was, you did it. But when I came to 17 Brooklyn, that was a common practice in 18 Brooklyn. You know, the Captain would allow 19 them - when I was the Lieutenant - would allow 20 us to, you know, to work those shifts. And due 21 to, we've got staff that commute far out. So, 22 that was just an incentive to get these guys to 23 come to work. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : You know? EFTA00060088

117 1 : Sure. 2 : So, yes. 3 : But the times for these, 4 the SHU staff, that's the actual hours that's 5 listed on that. 6 7 8 But for the Line staff -- : Okay. -- the Line staff, that 9 roster correctly imitates their schedule. 10 : Perfect. So, who, then - 11 I guess you said they would be working until 12 4:00 p.m.? 13 : Right. 14 : So, they would have at 15 least two hours to be able to do something. 16 : Right. 17 : And who was it that was 18 on that day? 19 : So, I had . I had 20 . I had . And I had 21 : And did you speak with 22 all of those individuals about the need for a 23 cell mate? 24 : I believe I did because they 25 were day watch, but like I said, it wouldn't EFTA00060089

118 1 have been on August 9th. 2 : Right. But just -- 3 : It would have been on 4 : -- but they would have 5 known the need to -. 6 : They was in the unit. 7 : Okay. 8 : For that quarter. So, once I 9 got the guidance from , of what he 10 wanted me to do, I moved on and did it. So, I 11 can't tell you, but I know I spoke to the day 12 watch SHU staff. 13 : Sure. 14 : They was the first ones I 15 spoke to. 16 : So, who, then - out of 17 there - who would have the SHU staff reported 18 the matter to? 19 : The what now? 20 : So, the SHU staff that's 21 in there -- 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 • • -- they now know that he 24 doesn't have a cell mate, and the cell mate is 25 not coming back. EFTA00060090

119 1 : Okay. So, they would have 2 known that he wasn't coming back until probably 3 evening watch. 4 : Okay. So, you don't 5 think those guys would have known? 6 : No. They wouldn't have 7 known. Because I don't know when the inmate 8 left the institution, but what happens is, when 9 that court line comes out, I believe that the 10 inmates leave the institution - supposed to - 11 between 6:00 and 8:00, or 7:00, you know, let's 12 say 7:00 to 9:00. So, between that time, those 13 inmates are - they're picked up, and then, 14 they're transported to a court. 15 : Okay. So, what time did 16 work? What was his shift? 17 -: was 8:00 to 4:00. 18 : So, if we can - let's 19 assume, for this instance, that knows 20 that he needs a cell mate. 21 : Right. 22 23 -: 24 known. 25 : What should have he done? probably wouldn't have : But let's say, for this EFTA00060091

120 1 instance, he did know. 2 : So, if he knew? 3 : He knew that he needed a cell 4 mate, and he knew that the cell mate wasn't 5 coming back. 6 : He probably wouldn't - but 7 what I'm trying to tell you, sir - he probably 8 wouldn't have never known. 9 : I know, but in this 10 instance, I'm just saying, let's -- 11 : Oh, oh, okay. 12 : -- let's say that he did. 13 : Okay. So, the instance of 14 what would have happen. What would happen was 15 -- 16 : What should have he done? 17 -- he should have - okay, 18 this guy is not coming - he should have 19 notified me. 20 : Okay. 21 : And should have been, like, 22 hey, Cap, hey, Reyes, Epstein's cell mate, hey, 23 he went out to court, he's not coming back. 24 : And he did not? 25 : No. EFTA00060092

121 1 : Okay. 2 : No one later informed me that 3 that inmate had even went to court. I didn't 4 even know he went with the court. Because 5 guess what? During the time this inmate is in 6 court, Epstein is in Attorney visiting all day. 7 : Sure. 8 : So, nobody would have even 9 thought about it because, oh, Epstein is in 10 Attorney visiting, his cell mate is not in 11 there. Okay, his cell mate went to court. 12 Nobody would have even been made aware that he 13 didn't have a cellie until when they went to 14 put him physically in the cell. 15 : Okay. So, when do you 16 think it would have been - in this instance - 17 when do you think it would have come up? 18 : As far as knowing he didn't 19 have a cellie? 20 : Correct. 21 : Somebody should have known 22 when he didn't come. That should have been on 23 evening watch. 24 : So, who was on evening 25 watch? EFTA00060093

122 1 : So, evening watch, well, 2 well, well, well, well, well let's see here. 3 You're talking about as the OIC? 4 : In the SHU. 5 : Yeah. 6 : Yeah. 7 : That would have been 8 9 10 11 : Okay. So, : Mm-hmm. : And who should have he 12 reported the matter to? 13 : He would have reported it to 14 the Operations Lieutenant. 15 : And who was the 16 Operations Lieutenant at that time? 17 : I believe the Lieutenant 18 would have been, that would have been 19 : All right. And 20 again, you, no one told you, so, obviously, 21 didn't tell you. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : So - okay - and would 24 gone directly to 25 : Yeah. He would have called EFTA00060094

123 1 . But guess what? I was there. I 2 didn't leave that night until, like, 8:00 3 something. I was there until 8:00 that night. 4 : Right. And you did not 5 visit the SHU that night, though. Correct? 6 : I can't remember. 7 : All right. 8 : I'm not going to say did I 9 make rounds that day or didn't I. I don't 10 know. 11 : Yeah. 12 : But I know I didn't leave 13 that institution until late that night. 14 : And you know, though, 15 that Reyes, you were never aware - on that day, 16 August 9th - that Reyes -- 17 : Had went to court. No. 18 • -- you didn't even know 19 he went to court, let alone wasn't coming back. 20 : Correct. 21 : Okay. So, 22 should have went direct to 23 : Correct. 24 : All right. And 25 is somebody that you did have a conversation EFTA00060095

124 1 with, with regard to the need for a cell mate. 2 Correct? 3 : I don't know if I - again, 4 talking to people in all three shifts, do I 5 remember ? Working in the unit? Yeah. 6 But as you're talking to people, I don't 7 remember that, hey, I talked - there's certain 8 people that I can't remember that I spoke 9 specifically to. 10 : Right. 11 : As opposed to some people, 12 you know, could have been in the area. That's 13 why I can't - I know I talked to the day watch 14 SHU staff for sure. 15 : Okay. 16 : And I mentioned those names. 17 I talked to those guys. 18 : So, but should have 19 certainly have told them? 20 : Yes. 21 : So, he's the Officer-in- 22 Charge. Who else was on that day? 23 : You had Tova Noel. And she 24 was the number two. And then, you had 25 -- EFTA00060096

125 1 2 3 4 5 : Tova Noel. Correct? : -- yeah. : Okay. : Noel. And then, you had II was SHU three that day. And then, you 6 had the SHU four, was not assigned. 7 : Okay. So, those three 8 people were in SHU. So, was it ultimately the 9 Officer-in-Charge responsibility, or should 10 have these other two - and Noel - have 11 taken any action? Should have they contacted 12 anyone? 13 : Well, if you're walking, and 14 you're doing rounds in the unit, you would see 15 - especially at the 4:00 count, because you 16 need to know where all of your inmates are 17 so, at that 4:00 count, and where is Epstein? 18 Epstein is at - he's in Attorney visiting, 19 because I'm going to get a count slip from 20 Attorney visiting, right? 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Where is Reyes? Reyes is out 23 at court. Then somebody should have called R&D 24 (Phonetic Sp. *01:45:06). Where is this guy 25 at? Somebody should have called R&D. That EFTA00060097

126 1 means the Lieutenant would have been notified 2 because you can't clear the count. Where is 3 the inmate at? 4 : Right. 5 : So, if you can't clear the 6 count, where is the inmate? The inmate went 7 out. But it's now 4:00. But I did say that 8 sometimes inmates don't come back on the 4:00. 9 So, they call that "ghosting." Supposedly, 10 he's supposed to be at court. But did you get 11 a count slip from court? No. When he leaves 12 out of the institution, that's on them. So, 13 that means the institution number should have 14 came down minus one. 15 : So, you believe that the 16 SHU should have known by 4:00 p.m., during the 17 4:00 p.m. count? 18 : Yeah. 19 : All right. And let's 20 in this case - if they didn't do a count at 21 4:00 p.m., should have they somehow known 22 otherwise, after that? So, would someone have 23 contacted them and said, by the way, this guy 24 is not coming back? 25 : Right. So, that means that, EFTA00060098

127 1 2 3 4 that the 4:00 count, when you going through the unit -. : But if they didn't do a 4:00 p.m. count. So, let's say, in this 5 instance, that they didn't do a 4:00 p.m. 6 count. 7 : Nobody would know. 8 : Would R&D have 9 : Nope. 10 : -- called them? 11 : No. 12 : So, unless they do the 13 count, they don't even know that the guy is not 14 coming back? 15 : That's right. 16 : Okay. 17 : So, normally -. 18 : So, no one is calling 19 them and saying, by the way, your guy that went 20 to court, he's not coming back? 21 : Right. 22 : Okay. 23 : Because you would know. 24 Because like I told you before, sometimes 25 inmates go to court and don't come back. The EFTA00060099

128 1 only time you're going to know is when these 2 guys always come back from the court line by 3 4:00. 4 : Okay. 5 : But sometimes they don't come 6 back at 4:00. 7 : Now, what time was their 8 shift? Was it 4:00 to midnight? 9 : Who? 10 : The people we were just 11 talking about, the evening watch. 12 : Yes. Their - yes. 4:00 to 13 midnight. 14 : So, 4:00 p.m. to 15 midnight. At that point, if it was recognized 16 that there was no cell mate and he needed a 17 cell mate, could have a - if they did contact 18 the Ops Lieutenant, Ops Lieutenant did contact 19 you - could have an inmate been assigned at 20 that time, or would have had to have wait the 21 next day? 22 : Well, what I would have done, 23 if I would have known right then and there that 24 he didn't have a cell mate, he's already in 25 Attorney visiting, right? EFTA00060100

129 1 : Yup. 2 : So, I would have went on 3 ahead. All right. Keep him in Attorney 4 visiting. I would have called - guess who I 5 would have called? I would have let the AW 6 know. . Well, , and 7 I would have called the Warden. I would have 8 said, hey, look, this guy went out the WAB 9 today. Or Reyes didn't come back from court. 10 We got to vet another guy. 11 : Okay. 12 : That's what would happen. 13 And plus, I was there at 8:00. So, let's say 14 he got released from Attorney visiting, and he 15 didn't go back, and when they went to the - 16 let's say, hey, this dude - he don't have a 17 cell mate. I would have been, like, hold up. 18 I would have said, because I got R&D staff down 19 there. Right? 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : Because I can't put him on 22 suicide watch. I can't put him on close 23 supervision. So, I would have said, hey, 24 quarter this guy right now in R&D, put a staff 25 member on it, which would have been Fox One. EFTA00060101

130 1 Put him on Fox One. Put a staff member down 2 there. Let me call the Warden. 3 : What does Fox One mean? 4 : That means - that's R&D. 5 : Okay. 6 : That's that cell assignment, 7 I believe. 8 : Okay. 9 : It would have been Fox One. 10 11 12 suicide watch. 13 : And are those -. Just, I can't just put him on : Right. And in Fox One, 14 people monitored at all times? 15 : No. But I would have had 16 somebody monitored -- 17 : Oh, I gotcha. 18 -- I would have had, hey, put 19 a staff member down there, and watch this guy, 20 until we get him a cell mate. 21 : Okay. And you think that 22 that same day, August 9th, he would have had a 23 cell mate, if you were made aware? 24 : Yes. If I was made aware, he 25 would have got a cell mate. EFTA00060102

131 1 : Okay. Now, let's go back 2 and say, if did know, and didn't tell 3 anybody, he didn't tell you, he didn't tell 4 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- is he the one that 7 : He dropped the ball. 8 : -- right. 9 : Because, again, like I told 10 you about count, and you made a good statement, 11 then how did you clear the count? 12 : Mm-hmm. So, the two 13 people that - so, if knew, and he didn't 14 tell anybody he dropped the ball, but at the 15 same time, if the 4:00 p.m. count was 16 conducted, they would have, then, raised the 17 issue with 18 : Right. 19 : So, there would have been 20 two checks there. 21 : Right. 22 : And if not that, it would 23 have also happened at the 10:00 p.m. count, as 24 well. 25 : Right. EFTA00060103

132 1 : So, if the 4:00 p.m. 2 count, the 10:00 p.m. count were both 3 conducted, there would have been notice, hey, 4 no cell mate -- 5 : Correct. 6 : -- bring it up to 7 8 : Correct. 9 : All right. So, if 10 didn't know, didn't tell him. 11 So, dropped the ball, the SHU staff 12 dropped the ball, it looks like. 13 : Right. 14 : Okay. Before we move on 15 from that, do you want to talk to anything 16 specific to that notion? 17 : No. 18 : Okay. 19 : Can we take a break? 20 : Absolutely. All right. 21 It is currently 11:58 p.m. This is Senior 22 Special Agent , and I am 23 pausing the recording. 24 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 25 off the record and back on the record). EFTA00060104

133 1 : Okay. The recorder is 2 on. It is currently Tuesday, June 15, 2021, at 3 12:06 p.m. We just took a short eight-minute 4 break. And , I remind you that you 5 are under oath. Thank you very much for your 6 cooperation with this matter, and it is 7 voluntary, and you can choose not to answer, or 8 leave at any time. 9 : Okay. 10 : All right. So, what we 11 are talking about before, before we move on, I 12 just want to go back to, so, you said, if 13 knew he dropped the ball, if the SHU staff 14 didn't do their counts at 4:00 p.m., and at 15 10:00 p.m., that's when they would have next 16 found out that Epstein was without a cell mate, 17 and they would have, then, reported it up. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Correct? What did we want 20 to follow up with on that? 21 : If a notification came from 22 court that Reyes wasn't coming back, who would 23 have got that notification? 24 : That notification would have 25 came though R&D and through the Control Center, EFTA00060105

134 1 which, the Control Center would have updated 2 the count in Sentry, to reflect if the inmate 3 was physically in the institution, or was still 4 out in court. So, it would be contingent to 5 look at that Sentry roster, which would be the 6 E-1, that the Control Center had created for 7 those counts, to find out if Reyes was still on 8 the count, as physically being in the 9 institution, or out the court. 10 : Okay. And if R&D and Control 11 did get that notification, did they have to 12 notify the SHU? 13 : Yes. Because then the count 14 would be off. 15 : If, let's just say that that 16 notification came between 1:00 p.m. and 3:00 17 p.m., who in the SHU would have got notified? 18 : The OIC. Which would have 19 been - for day watch - it would have been 20 either or 21 : And what should they have 22 done? 23 : And with that one time, they 24 would have reflected on - inside of Sentry, and 25 also, they would have known that the inmate was EFTA00060106

135 1 not physically there, and they would have had 2 notified the Operations Lieutenant, that this 3 guy didn't come back. So, that means somebody 4 would have had to make sure that the 5 institutional count was right or wrong. 6 : So, in this instance, if 7 knew, who would have been the one that 8 would have informed him? 9 : That would have one of the - 10 that would have been either 11 would have notified him, but then, I also said 12 that worked in the capacity of OIC 13 because a lot of those Officers would say, oh, 14 I don't have the ability to log on, into the 15 program. So, he would do double duties. 16 : Okay. So, let's say that 17 the SHU staff that time did notify 18 : Okay. 19 : Let's say now 20 didn't take any action. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Okay? Now, let's say the 23 next SHU staff comes on board, should they 24 continue to report the matter up the chain? 25 : Yeah. EFTA00060107

136 1 : Even though the SHU that 2 replaced them already made the notification 3 that Epstein was without a cell mate and needed 4 a new one? 5 : Because their count would 6 have been off. 7 : Well -. 8 : And then, they wouldn't have 9 known that, you know, when they brought him 10 back from Attorney visiting, that the cell was 11 empty. 12 : Right. And I'm not 13 specifically talking about the count right now. 14 What I'm saying is, like, if the SHU did notify 15 , hey, Epstein is required to have a cell 16 mate and his cell mate is gone, we need to get 17 him a new one. 18 : Right. 19 now never takes any 20 action. Should the SHU, later that day, made 21 the same notification to the - in this case - 22 to ? Hey, Epstein still hasn't been re- 23 assigned a cell mate. 24 : Correct. 25 : Okay. So, the SHU may EFTA00060108

137 1 have done it right at day watch, and got 2 the notification, but the SHU on night watch -- 3 : Didn't do it. 4 : -- didn't do it, and they 5 should have. 6 : Because he was in Attorney 7 visiting. So, they said, oh, it was an empty 8 cell. We said, okay, yeah. Epstein is still 9 at Attorney visiting. Nobody would have cared 10 about the cellie because they would have 11 thought he was still out at court. 12 : Okay. 13 : But if he didn't come back by 14 8:00 that night, somebody should have said 15 something. 16 : Now, let's go even 17 further from, now we go from evening watch to 18 now morning watch, we're on August 10th, where 19 Noel and Thomas are now in there. 20 : Correct. 21 : Should have they made the 22 notification to 23 : They wouldn't have known. 24 : All right. So, they 25 should have -. EFTA00060109

138 1 : They would have been in the 2 unit, with the assumption that all of the 3 inmates have been accounted for by the previous 4 shifts because the count didn't go - wasn't 5 bad. 6 : So, that's the 12:00 7 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? 8 : Correct. 9 : Are you saying they don't 10 really need to do those counts? 11 : No, no, no. I'm not saying 12 that. What I'm saying is, they would have not 13 known that that inmate didn't come back from 14 court, if it wasn't addressed on either at day 15 watch or evening watch. 16 : Okay. 17 : They wouldn't know. They 18 would just - can't be responsible for counting 19 what inmates was housed in that unit, between 20 the hours of 12:00 to 5:00 a.m. Because those 21 are the three counts. 22 : These. 23 : So, yeah, let's see - so, 24 these are the counts - let's look. 25 : So, the 5:00 p.m. one? EFTA00060110

139 1 2 -- 3 : All right. So, I got the : 5:00. 4 : -- it looks like we got 5 the 5:00, the 10:00, the midnight, the 3:00 6 a.m., the 5:00 a.m., and then, is this the 7 rounds? 8 : Yeah. That's the control. 9 : The control. 10 : Yeah, we don't want this. 11 I'll take this. 12 : Okay. So, here are the 13 counts from August 9th, from 4:00 p.m. through 14 August 10th, through 5:00 a.m. 15 : Okay. 16 : Now, we have reason to 17 believe that the 4:00 p.m., the 10:00 p.m., the 18 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 p.m., 19 none of them were conducted. 20 : Okay. So, you're saying that 21 the 4:00 count for August 9th was not done, and 22 the 10:00 wasn't done? 23 : And the 10:00. And nor 24 was the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., or the 5:00 25 a.m. EFTA00060111

140 1 : Okay. So -- 2 : Now, is there a way to 3 look at that, if there is someone, let's say, 4 because at the 12:00 a.m. count, you'll notice 5 there is a discrepancy. There is one inmate 6 they're off by. Control says, hey, you're off 7 by one. 8 : Right. 9 : Is there a way to kind of 10 look at these counts and notice, all right, 11 this would have been picked up then, or a way 12 to kind of tell that these weren't conducted by 13 just looking at those documents, or noticing 14 if, you know, if Reyes is gone by 1:50, you 15 know -- 16 : Yeah. 17 : -- he's released. Is 18 there a way to tell that on there? 19 : Because you've got it right 20 here. 21 : Okay. 22 : This is the form right there. 23 This will tell you who the inmates are, out of 24 count 25 : Okay. EFTA00060112

141 1 : And that's from Small. He 2 was one of the receiving and discharged 3 employees that was probably working on August 4 9th. 5 : Okay. 6 : So, she would know who was 7 still out at count. So, that means, Operations 8 Lieutenant didn't even sign it. That's a 9 violation. 10 : So, this document that 11 you're looking at, it looks like - what is it? 12 - like, the third page on there? 13 : Yeah. That they should have 14 - because you've got right here. Clark. 15 Unassigned work assignments. So, this inmate 16 Clark. This saying he's out at court. 17 : Okay. 18 : So, he -- 19 : Okay. 20 : -- so now, our count is minus 21 one. But we know where he is because he's 22 still out at court. So, Reyes, that count 23 so, if he went out to court, let's say we was 24 at 88, let's just say. When he went out to 25 court, him and Clark went out, we would have EFTA00060113

142 1 went down to 86. But guess what? Reyes drops 2 off the count. How? He got released. Where is 3 the -- 4 : So, if he was released -- 5 form that should have came 6 from the Marshals back to us, saying that he 7 got released. 8 : So, between the 10:00 9 a.m. count and the 4:00 p.m. count, would there 10 be a form in there showing that he was 11 released? 12 : There should have been. 13 : Okay. 14 : That should have been 15 generated from the Marshals because it's a 16 transfer order. You heard of a transfer order? 17 Every time an inmate goes off, if you've got 18 ten that went out to court that day, that's 19 that transfer order. Whatever the disposition 20 of those inmates are, okay, boom, ten went out 21 to count, eight coming back. Okay, where are 22 the other two? Okay. I got this guy that's 23 still out of counted, and he's at court. He's 24 still at whatever, at this timeframe. Where is 25 Reyes? There should have been a transfer EFTA00060114

143 1 receipt signed by the Marshals by the staff 2 that was at the New York court over there, the 3 people that handle the inmates, that transfer 4 order should have been sent back with whoever 5 was transporting the inmates, and brought back 6 to the institution to say that this guy never 7 came back. 8 : So, that third page that 9 you're saying, though, that that was a 10 violation that the Operations Lieutenant didn't 11 sign? 12 : Right. 13 : Would have that been 14 or , at that time? 15 : Because all of this stuff, 16 it's called a 30-day file. 17 : Okay. 18 : So, what the Lieutenants are 19 supposed to do on their shift, is supposed to, 20 when they make rounds in Control, they're 21 suppose - because we're supposed to take a 22 count on every shift. Especially in the off- 23 hours. So, before Epstein, that was a 24 responsibility. On the off-hours, you will be 25 responsible for taking the count. So, that EFTA00060115

144 1 evening watch guy would take that 10:00 count. 2 Right? Or somebody would take the 4:00 count. 3 So, the Operations Lieutenant or the Activities 4 would normally go down and take the 4:00. They 5 would go through the paperwork for that day, up 6 to 4:00, and you would sign all of the forms. 7 Like, if somebody checked out keys, restricted 8 key forms, Operations is supposed to sign it. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : If a transfer order receipts 11 comes back, you're supposed to sign it. 12 Whatever happens on that shift, you're supposed 13 to sign the count slips. That form, right 14 here? That should have been signed by the 15 Lieutenant. 16 : Okay. So, these forms 17 that we're looking at 4:00 p.m., there is a 18 number of signatures that are missing? 19 : Yeah. 20 : And should have that been 21 the Lieutenant, as in - it looks like 22 or -? 23 : Official preparing count, 24 official taking count. Those are going to be - 25 so, the person that was taking that count would EFTA00060116

145 1 have been the OIC, then the person who actually 2 was there as a Lieutenant that was taking the 3 count, normally we would sign it in red. 4 : Now, the Lieutenant, when you say they're there, aren't they in the 6 Control Center? 7 : They're in the Control Center 8 9 : And then, the SHU calls - 10 11 -- while the Officers are 12 doing the count. 13 : Okay. So, the SHU calls 14 in, says, we got the count, 72, 73, 74, 15 whatever it is. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : And in this case, when 18 you look at the 4:00 p.m. though, you're seeing 19 that there was no Lieutenant that signed off on 20 that? 21 : No. 22 : So, on the first page, as 23 well as the third page, was where they should 24 have signed? 25 : Right. EFTA00060117

146 1 : All right. And then -. 2 : Yeah, because I got a - look 3 - I got a signature for this one, that was 4 approved by the Operations Lieutenant right 5 here. 6 : And who was that? 7 : That's - I don't know who 8 that signature is. 9 10 would have been on duty, is that what 11 time? 12 All right. It looks like That's going to be 4:00 p.m., 13 whoever took the 4:00 p.m., that Lieutenant 14 would have been 15 : Okay. Can we go to the 16 SHU count slips themselves? And that should be 17 the last, like, page or two. 18 : See, yup. Those are the 19 inmates that went to the Attorney visiting. 20 So, those three would have been on the count 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 -- slip. Now, you said 23 where? 24 : The very last page. 25 It's, like, the actual slips. EFTA00060118

147 1 : These? 2 : Yup. So, these are the 3 slips that the actual SHU - for the ones that 4 are in the SHU. Can you just put an initial by 5 it, or circle it, or whatever, which ones it is 6 that would have been conducted at the SHU? 7 : Okay. I think it's Zulu 8 Bravo. Zulu Alpha. 9 : So, ZA and ZB are the two 10 SHUs? 11 : Yes. 12 : Are there any more than 13 that? 14 : You have - so, that's - 15 you've got Food Service. GS, (Indiscernible 16 *00:12:11) Attorney visiting. That's Kilo 17 India. That's court. Kilo Zulu. Yes. So, 18 Zulu Alpha would have been that, and then, that 19 would have been Ten South. 20 : All right. So, Ten 21 South. 22 : Charlie Alpha. Charlie 23 Alpha. 24 : But no, just specific to 25 the SHU. Like, where? Not - I don't know if EFTA00060119

148 1 Ten South is considered SHU, but I'm just 2 talking specific to, like, where Epstein was, 3 in the SHU. Like, who, you know, the 4 : Yeah. 5 : I'm assuming the 72, 6 73 count. 7 : Yeah. Right here. That 8 would have been the Zulu Bravo and the Zulu 9 Alpha. 10 : All right. Great. And 11 are you able to tell me who all are on those 12 slips? 13 : It says and Tova 14 Noel, and 15 : Okay. 16 : And that would have been for 17 the 4:00. 18 : All right. 19 : For , and Tova Noel, 20 for the 4:00 count. 21 : Okay. And now, what is 22 the difference between the ZB and ZA? 23 : I believe that ZA is the 24 total SHU. 25 : Okay. EFTA00060120

149 1 : And then, then you had the 2 inmates that were up on Ten South. 3 : Okay. So, the ZB, is 4 that Ten South, then? 5 : Yes. 6 : So, we're focused on ZA? 7 : Yes. 8 : All right. So, ZA, and 9 that one was signed by who? 10 : It looks like Noel and 11 12 : Now, if that count wasn't 13 actually conducted, are they the only two that 14 are responsible for falsifying that, or would 15 the other people -? 16 : This would be the whole Unit. 17 It would be 18 : The whole Unit. 19 : -- the OIC, everybody that 20 was in the Unit. 21 : Okay. 22 : Because that means, on 23 evening watch, I believe you have one, two, 24 three, four staff, and they all have a 25 different range that they have a responsibility EFTA00060121

150 1 of. 2 : Okay. 3 : You know what I'm saying? So, 4 they feed us, they feed the ranges. They 5 monitor the ranges by doing the 30-minute 6 rounds. So, the OIC has the key. So, those 7 other three staff - the number two, the three, 8 and the four, I believe - they're supposed to 9 do rounds, feed, do - issue cosmetics - do 10 whatever they need to do as far as the normal 11 operations inside the unit. So, if nobody 12 counted, that means who count, who help assist 13 in counting in Ten South? For the five guys. 14 : Right. 15 : Because I believe the 16 Lieutenant is supposed to come up. Normally, 17 the Activities will go up, I believe, and do 18 the count in Zulu Bravo. So, that means that 19 one of the Lieutenants would be up in the unit 20 when the count was going on. 21 : So, in this case, a 22 Lieutenant should have actually been present? 23 : Yeah. 24 : Which Lieutenant on that 25 date would that have been? EFTA00060122

151 1 : So, that would have been -- 2 : That was the August 9th. 3 that would have been -- 4 : Are we looking at August 5 9th? 6 : -- so, probably took 7 the count. And then, - or Ms. 8 would have been in Ten South, 9 doing the count in Ten South, I believe. If I 10 could remember. It's been a while. 11 : All right. So -. 12 : Because it's only per - 13 there's only one staff member inside of Ten 14 South. 15 : So. should 16 have been present for the count at 4:00 p.m.? 17 : Yeah. Because I'm looking, 18 and you have Ten South number one was 19 And then, you had Ten South number two was G. 20 So, G. probably was up there 21 doing property. 22 : Now, is this only for the 23 four, or should there have been a Lieutenant, 24 as well as in the 10:00 p.m., 12:00 a.m., 3:00 25 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? EFTA00060123

152 1 : So, 2 : So, who is 3 • is one of the 4 Officers. 5 : What is the first name on 6 that? 7 -: . And then, I'm 8 looking in here, so, Ten South number two is II 9 , which is the Property Officer. So, 10 during that time, I was to go 11 up here and get the property situated on the 12 evening watch. 13 : So, is even 14 working in the SHU at that point? I think he 15 would have had the first -- 16 : Because, you know, that 17 because that would have been . Let 18 me look at the day of, because I don't think he 19 would work that, because it said is 20 the number one. 21 : And that's where I'm 22 confused, by looking at some of these counts, 23 why would they even have -? 24 • was on overtime. 25 So, was day watch. So, that means EFTA00060124

153 1 probably came in late. 2 : Okay. 3 : So, probably did the 4 count because didn't get there. And now, 5 he was notorious for that. 6 : Okay. 7 a good guy, but he 8 had some health problems, and maybe he didn't 9 get there on time. So, went on ahead, 10 and since the count started at 4:00, he 11 probably went ahead and did the count. 12 : All right. And are you 13 able to tell on that, does this have a time for 14 when the count was supposedly conducted? 15 : It's all of them going to 16 reflect 4:00. 17 : Just 4:00. 18 : 4:00. It's not going to say 19 4:05, 4:04. The count is 4:00 p.m. 20 : Okay. So, in this case, 21 though, the one for the overall SHU, that would 22 have been - you said - is that a (Indiscernible 23 *00:17:15), or are you just telling that's for 24 the Ten South? 25 : Overall SHU would have been EFTA00060125

154 1 Zulu Alpha. 2 : Yeah, and who was on 3 that? That's where I'm -. 4 : Noel and 5 : So, . and 6 Noel would have been the one that did the 7 overall, but what you're saying is everyone - 8 if the overall count was not conducted 9 everyone was responsible? 10 : Yes. 11 : For falsifying that? 12 : Yup. 13 : Because everyone would 14 have known. 15 : They would have known -- 16 : That it wasn't conducted. 17 : -- that it wasn't conducted. 18 : Now, is there any kind 19 of, like, hey, we fed them, that's how we did 20 our count? 21 : No. Count - because I put 22 this guidance out -- 23 : Yup. 24 : -- the difference between 25 doing rounds and accurate rounds, you know, we EFTA00060126

155 1 talked about the timeframe that goes between 2 the 30-minute rounds. So, like, let's say it's 3 11:00. You should do a round somewhere between 4 11:00 and 11:30. You understand? 5 : Yup. 6 : If it's done at 11:29, that's 7 fine. But you should be doing it within that 8 30-minutes because it has to be irregular. So, 9 you can't put on there and said, I did rounds 10 at 11:00, 11:30. 11 : 12:00. 12 : 12:00, 12:30. You know, you 13 can't do it like that. So, let's say, you 14 know, you're feeding up there, you're up t here 15 feeding, but that round is not going to be - 16 because you're not monitoring, you're doing a 17 service. Just because you're on the range, 18 that means you did a round. A round is 19 physically stopping what you're doing. So, if 20 I'm feeding during the time it's supposed to, 21 I'm supposed to do a round, secure the slot, I 22 go to the beginning of the range. One, two, 23 five, seven, nine, 11, whatever, whatever, 24 whatever. Document the time I did the round. 25 Then go back to feeding. It's not while I'm up EFTA00060127

156 1 there. Okay, I'll feed the range, it took me 2 seven minutes, 7.9 seconds to feed a round. 3 And so, that's telling me that you did a 4 regular round for a hour, one hour, because you 5 was up there for 45 minutes? No. Did you do a 6 round? 7 : Right. 8 : Did you - can I physically 9 watch you go from cell to cell? That's a round. 10 : But what about - so, can 11 a round can't be a count - but can a count be a 12 round? 13 : No. 14 : So, every 30 minutes, if 15 you're doing a count at 4:00, you also have to 16 do a round at 4:00? 17 : Yup. 18 : Okay. 19 : Because if I go up there at 20 4:00, if I go - let's say I start 4:00. At 21 4:00, that's going to be that round. You 22 understand what I'm saying? Because count, I'm 23 taking accountability of the unit, so, if it 24 takes probably two or three minutes a count, 25 that would be 4:03 that I count in that range. EFTA00060128

157 1 I go to the next range. I'm done at 4:09. 2 4:16. 4:20. 4:27. Guess what? Between that 3 30 to 5:00, I got to go do another round, in 4 between that timeframe, not to exceed 40 5 minutes. That's the policy. 6 : Okay. Do you know 7 anything about the SHU not conducting rounds? 8 : Do I know of SHU not 9 conducting rounds? 10 : If the personnel in the 11 SHU. Do you know of anything about that, of 12 them -? 13 : I would have never known that 14 those staff were not - because again, that's 15 not my purview. 16 : Sure. 17 : To sit down there and monitor 18 -- 19 : So -- 20 : -- rounds. 21 : I just mean, like, had 22 anybody told -- 23 : No. 24 : -- told you this? 25 : No. I would have never known EFTA00060129

158 1 until after the Epstein thing, we had to 2 monitor the camera footage of what the SHU 3 staff did, and I was appalled to what they were 4 doing on the off-hours. 5 : So now, after the fact, 6 are you aware if any of these counts were 7 conducted or not conducted? 8 : I was not made aware that no 9 count was conducted because I do not monitor 10 camera footage of the staff -- 11 : No, I'm saying after -- 12 so, I wouldn't know. 13 : -- no, I'm saying after 14 the fact. So now. 15 : Now, I know, and I was - and 16 again, when I had to monitor the footage per 17 the new directive that was put out for the 18 Central Office, and the Captain would have to 19 monitor X amount of hours of SHU footage per 20 week? Even after we had the situation with 21 Epstein, staff wasn't still doing it right. 22 : But in the - what I'm 23 asking is - in those instances, do you know if 24 the 4:00, the 10:00, the 5:00, on these August 25 9th and August 10th, do you -- EFTA00060130

159 1 : I would have thought they 2 would have been done. 3 -- but do you - now - do 4 you know if they were or they weren't? 5 : I was told that they were not 6 conducted. 7 : 4:00 p.m., as well? 8 : I was told that the Officers 9 that were assigned to the morning watch shift 10 did not do rounds from the time they walked 11 into that Unit until the time that they found 12 inmate Epstein deceased in the cell. 13 : That, I think what you're 14 referring to is the August 10th -- 15 16 17 Yes. : I'm saying August 9th. : August 9th. I would have not 18 known that. 19 : No, no, no, no. Now. 20 I'm talking about. 21 : Now, I'm aware of it. 22 Because if the inmate didn't come back from 23 court, how did you clear court? 24 : And did you know that 25 prior to this conversation, though? Have you EFTA00060131

160 1 ever -- 2 : No. 3 : -- oh. Yeah. So, what 4 I'm saying is -- 5 : So, this is all new to me. 6 : -- okay. So, you didn't 7 - you had never heard, up until this date, that 8 it's possible that the 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 9 p.m. were not conducted? 10 : That is correct. 11 : All right. And no one 12 ever brought that to your attention? 13 : That is correct. 14 : Okay. You can just 15 speak. 16 : Did you - what if I told you 17 there was a memo written by Officer 18 stating that he told Officers 19 and that at 1:50 p.m., on August 9th, 20 that inmate Reyes was going WAB, and possibly 21 not returning? 22 Hmm. Didn't know anything 23 about that. 24 : So, no one made you aware 25 about it? EFTA00060132

161 1 : Nope. So, 1:50. If they 2 knew that he was - like, I remember, I told you 3 - that it comes out automatically, from R&D. 4 It says, the X, Y, Z inmate won't be returning, 5 so he needs to bring his belongings to court 6 line. So, if they knew he was WAB, who 7 informed him? Because I bet you, I can 8 guarantee, on that Sentry paperwork, that was 9 generated that morning, that night - so, that 10 would have been the 7th, because it's generated 11 on the 7th for the 8th - no, the 8th for the 12 9th, I know it didn't have WAB on it. 13 : Okay. So, my question -- 14 : What does WAB stand for? 15 With All Belongings. 16 : Oh. 17 : That's what you would -- 18 : Huh? 19 WAB stands for With All 20 Belongings. Right? 21 : Yes. 22 : So, and here's my question 23 for you. If Officer was aware of that 24 -- 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00060133

162 1 : -- he would be made aware by 2 who? 3 : He would have been made by 4 R&D staff. 5 : Who was the R&D staff that 6 day? 7 : Well, the only one I could - 8 because he's not on our roster, he's not 9 Correctional Services - I can only go by this. 10 : And who is that? 11 : Ms. Small. 12 : Ms. Small. Okay. 13 : But I can tell you Ms. Small, 14 she works from - I think her end shift is 15 10:00. So, that means she would have been 16 there around 2:00, because I think she worked 17 2:00 to 10:00. I don't think - on the weekends 18 - I don't think the R&D staff stayed past 19 10:00, past 10:00. You understand what I'm 20 saying? 21 : Okay. 22 : So, they didn't stay past 23 10:00. 24 : So, my question is, if R&D 25 knew, should that Control document - on the EFTA00060134

163 1 first page - should that have been updated by 2 then? 3 : Yup. This E-1 -- 4 : So, is that -- 5 : -- this E-1 should have - 6 this is not a correct E-1. 7 : So, the E-1 is wrong? So, at 8 that point, that 4:00 p.m. count, that out - 9 what is that? The last column, what does that 10 say? 11 : Which one, sir? 12 : The out count. The out count 13 shouldn't have shown 1:00 for the SHU. 14 : Right. Because it would have 15 said 2:00. You know what I'm saying? Because 16 that means that out count from the SHU was 17 Jeffrey Epstein. 18 : If you look at it, is the 19 Epstein popping up on another column over 20 there? Under attorney visit. 21 : It should have been on -- 22 : Is there an Attorney -? 23 Attorney visiting. 24 : Is he on there? On Attorney 25 visiting. At - check the first or second EFTA00060135

164 1 column. 2 : Okay. Let's see. 3 : Is there one that says ATTY? 4 : Okay. No, sir. I don't see 5 ATTY on it. 6 : Can I see that for a second? 7 This one right here. 8 : Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 9 : I pointed to the first column 10 that said it. 11 : Okay. I'm sorry. Yes. It 12 shows that there was a total on the - a total 13 of three inmates that was out at Attorney, and 14 out at Attorney visiting, during the 4:00 p.m. 15 count. 16 : And one of them, did one of 17 those inmates belong to the SHU? 18 19 20 : One of those was Zulu Alpha. : Okay. : Correct. 21 : And then, at that point, they 22 also - for Zulu Alpha - they're showing that 23 one inmate was for - is still on out count, 24 which means possibly, that it's mentioning 25 Efrain Reyes, then? EFTA00060136

165 1 : Okay. Now -- 2 : The last column. 3 : -- the last column, it says 4 out count, it still says 1:00 for Zulu Alpha. 5 : So, it should have been 6 updated by then, being the fact that this is 7 the 4:00 p.m. count? 8 : Right. 9 : They should have been updated 10 by then, because they got a notification at 11 1:50 that he's not coming back. 12 : Correct. 13 : So, that E-1 document is 14 wrong. 15 : Right. 16 : Now, if told 17 Officers , and that inmate 18 Reyes wasn't going WAB, and that Epstein would 19 need to be assigned a cell mate upon arrival 20 from his Attorney visit -- 21 : Yes, sir. 22 : -- Reyes has to communicate 23 where - who dropped the ball, and at that 24 point? 25 : Okay. 1 mean, for the sake EFTA00060137

166 1 of time, what we talked about before is, that 2 means they would notify by me that he needed a 3 cell mate? 4 : Yeah. 5 : They knew. They knew the 6 expectation. So, that means - if you know 7 that, at 1:50 p.m. he wasn't coming back - that 8 means you should have got on the phone and 9 contacted the Operations Lieutenant. 10 : And we discussed this. 11 And -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- and this is 14 : Right. 15 this is where we 16 talked about, if they did that, they let 17 know, is the one who dropped the ball. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Yeah. 20 : The next people that 21 would have done it would have been at the 4:00 22 p.m., the 10:00 p.m. type of count. They 23 should have, then, notified the Operations -- 24 : Yes. 25 : -- Lieutenant at the same EFTA00060138

167 1 time. 2 3 : Yes. : Correct. All right. And 4 what you're saying, though, is - I think what 5 you said, though, is during the morning shift, 6 the zero dark hundred to 8:00 a.m., or I think 7 it was 8:00 a.m., right? 8 : Yes, sir. 9 : It's 8:00 a.m.? They 10 wouldn't have known. 11 : They wouldn't have known. 12 : Right. Because they -- 13 : They wouldn't have known. 14 : -- because if the counts 15 weren't done at 4:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m., they 16 wouldn't have necessarily known. 17 : They wouldn't necessarily 18 know. 19 : But what about, like, if 20 they had a conversation at 12:00 a.m. with the 21 Ops Lieutenant about the fact that the counts 22 are off, re-do - or was it 10:00 p.m.? 23 : It's midnight. 24 : The midnight one was the 25 one where the count is -- EFTA00060139

168 1 2 count. If you look at - yeah, the 3 So, if you go 8:00, 9:00, to 4 - we're going to 08/10 now -- 5 : What? 6 : (Indiscernible *00:28:37). 7 so, 08/10. 8 : And she worked 10:00 p.m. 9 -- 10 : At -- 11 : -- and she worked from 12 4:00 p.m. through. 13 : So, she wasn't (Indiscernible 14 *00:28:41). 15 : This is it right here. 16 : Oh, okay. 17 : Okay. 18 : So, this is it right here. 19 So, we're talking about 08/10/2019, that's 20 going to be - so, this E-1 was generated at 21 003517 hours. 22 : On August 10th? 23 : On August 10th. And this 24 shows that there's 72 inmates in SHU. 25 : Can you look at the counts EFTA00060140

169 1 2 3 4 for that day? : : The very last page. Yeah. : Or it could be the second 5 to last. So, I'm assuming you're looking for 6 ZA. 7 : Correct. 8 : And then, if you could 9 just circle ZA, so we know what we're looking 10 at. 11 : ZA. 12 : What is the count on that? 13 : That is - it appears - it 14 says that the count on that day was 73. 15 : And that cleared count 16 was 72, correct? 17 : That is correct. 18 : Okay. Do you want to 19 follow up? 20 : If there was a mistake with 21 the count, and the Lieutenant caught onto the 22 mistake, what was the -- 23 : And the quota was the 24 protocols? 25 : -- yeah. EFTA00060141

170 1 2 3 4 : All right. This is what happened. So, if I'm the Officers, I count, I count the Unit, and they say 73. The Control Center would have been, like, no, bad count. 5 They're not going to tell you what you counted. 6 They're going to make you count again. So, the 7 procedure is, once that bad count has been made 8 notified, the Control Center notifies the 9 Lieutenant, and the Lieutenant is supposed to 10 go up to the Unit, to observe the count. 11 : All right. So -- 12 : For -. 13 : -- so, if the Ops 14 Lieutenant - in this case, 15 : Right. 16 : -- should have gone 17 : Should have went to the 18 : -- and observed. 19 : -- went to SHU, to observe 20 the count. 21 : So, if there is a bad 22 count, that's -- 23 : That's right. 24 : -- that's the protocol. 25 : That's the policy. EFTA00060142

171 1 : Okay. 2 : So, you go upstairs Well, 3 I'm sorry. That's the expectation. 4 : So, expectation, not 5 policy. 6 : I can't - I'm not going to 7 sit up here and quote policy when I don't know 8 it verbatim. 9 : Absolutely. 10 : But I will tell you the 11 expectation is that Supervisor - Correctional 12 Services - a Lieutenant, on an announcement of 13 a bad count will go to the area of the count, 14 and will observe the said count. 15 : What if the Supervisor 16 claims that, when they called in the count, and 17 they said 73, they said, hey, we're calling in 18 73, but we know we're off by one? Does that 19 make any sense? 20 : That doesn't. That means the 21 institutions count is going to be bad, which 22 : And then, then that -- 23 : -- that is the worst thing 24 that you can 25 : And -. EFTA00060143

172 1 : -- besides the inmate - it's 2 three things - an inmate died, your count being 3 off, or an inmate escaping. Those are the big 4 things right there. If your count is bad - 5 because that's what we get paid to do - we're 6 the masters of count, that's what we do, 7 accountability of inmates, in a Correctional 8 setting. That's what you do. That's what 9 you're paid for. So, you call me, as a 10 Lieutenant, and you tell me, hey, LT., we keep 11 counting the unit, and the unit, and the count 12 is bad. So, the next thing I'm going to tell 13 you, give me some staff up there. I want a 14 standup bed book. 15 : So, if they say that -- 16 : -- so then, I'm going to 17 identify each inmate by their face, and their 18 cell assignment, to get the count. 19 : So, what if they say, 20 we're off by one, but we know where that one 21 is? That one is over there. And then, the 22 Lieutenant responds -- 23 : But they know -- 24 : -- all right, I'm going 25 to go verify where that one staff is, you redo EFTA00060144

173 1 the count. Would that make sense? 2 : No. What I'm telling you is 3 when it was supposed to have been done. 4 : Okay. 5 : Because -. 6 : So, even if they said, 7 like, hey, we wrote down 73, but that - so, 8 let's say Thomas, who is not a typical SHU guy- 9 he's the one that calls this in. He says, I 10 wrote down 73 on the count slip, but that's 11 because one our guys that we're counting for is 12 over at -- 13 : R&D. 14 : -- let's say R&D. And -- 15 : Okay. So -- 16 : -- and then, the 17 Lieutenant then says, I'm going to go verify 18 that that person is there, you reconduct the 19 count, and create a new count slip. 20 : Okay. So, it was one RA - I 21 believe that's R&D. RA, I believe, is R&D. 22 Right? No. So, in R&D, there was nobody in 23 R&D. There's no one -- 24 : So, what if the -. 25 : -- there's no one in R&D. EFTA00060145

174 1 So, the policy is, the Lieutenant is on there, 2 I'm going to watch you do it, and so, that's 3 the second count. The third count is the 4 standing bed book count. That I used the bed 5 book cards, and I go cell by cell, and I make 6 the inmates say their name and number, and I 7 physically identify them by their face. 8 : All right. 9 : If that don't work, all of 10 this stuff is supposed to be annotated in the 11 log, that bad count one, bad count two, SHU 12 reports bad count three. Bed book count was 13 identified. The next thing would have been, 14 was to go back through the prior counts to see 15 of the movement, of who was in or out, because 16 if your count cleared here, at 10:00, you only 17 had one out of the unit, which was Epstein. 18 When he came back, that means your count should 19 have went from - if it was 72 here - that's 20 telling me that it must have been 71. At 21 boom. So, it was 76 22 : Is that the 4:00 p.m. count? 23 : -- yeah. It was 76. Then, 24 at the 10:00 count, on the 9:30 count, it was 25 73. So, where did those three inmates go? EFTA00060146

175 1 Where did those inmates go? So, somebody was in 2 there messing with the numbers in order for the 3 count to clear. 4 : In order to find out 5 where they went is it, we have to go into 6 TRUSCOPE (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:52)? Is that 7 where we would have to find -- 8 : You would - you could go in 9 the TRU - most - Sentry is supposed to be full- 10 proof, all-proof. 11 : Okay. So, Sentry. 12 : But it's only as good as the 13 people that's putting the information in there. 14 : Sure. Sure. 15 : Yeah. 16 : And are the SHU the 17 people that are putting the information in, or 18 is it the Control Center? 19 : So, this is what happens. In 20 theory, you've got - when inmates come back 21 from court, and they do the transfer orders, 22 and it goes down to Control, R&D is supposed to 23 update those inmates coming back in. Control 24 Center gets the transfer order, and they're 25 verifying. Any time any internal movement is EFTA00060147

176 1 done inside of a unit, like SHU, the OIC is 2 supposed to do it. If a Case Manager and Unit 3 Manager, or a Counselor, moves the inmate on 4 the unit, guess what? They're supposed to make 5 that Sentry - (Indiscernible *00:35:49) PP-34 6 transaction in Sentry to make the appropriate 7 move. 8 : So, looking at these, do 9 you believe that they're all -- 10 : These all bad. 11 : -- they're all bad? 12 : Mm-hmm. All. 13 : All of them? 14 : They're all bad. All bogus. 15 : All right. So, 4:00 p.m. 16 through -. 17 : The Control Center, R&D. 18 It's bad. 19 : Okay. 20 : Just a clarifying question. 21 Can a person do a count - let's just say they 22 know someone is in a different unit - can they 23 say, oh, I know the person is out of the unit, 24 and I'm going to count them as part of my unit, 25 and just give the count number. Are they EFTA00060148

177 1 allowed to do that, or -- 2 : No. 3 : -- do they have to physically 4 have to get eyes on them? 5 : So, it's only - who - the 6 amount of inmates that are in their unit at 7 that time. 8 : Correct. 9 : Okay. 10 : That's it. 11 : All right. Let's keep 12 going on this. Thank you for that. That's 13 hugely helpful. So, "Inmates' cell mates are 14 moved for various reasons, including but not 15 limited to an incident in the cell, visits to 16 court, legal library, medical, and recreation. 17 On Friday, August 9, 2019, Epstein's cell mate, 18 Reyes, had court. It would not be uncommon for 19 Reyes to be out of his cell for an extended 20 period. Epstein had an Attorney session that 21 day. Epstein's Attorney was processed into the 22 facility in the morning, and Epstein was 23 brought down to the Attorney room." And you 24 said that that was pretty much seven days a 25 week? With Epstein. was not notified EFTA00060149

178 1 that Reyes was released from court." And 2 again, on that note, would have been the Ops 3 Lieutenant that would have been responsible to 4 tell you, for instance -- 5 : Yes. 6 : -- if someone heard 7 : If you would recall, he 8 should have - because he know the - he knew the 9 expectation. 10 : Right. 11 : So, by our previous 12 conversation, they knew the expectation. But 13 again, they chose not to follow the playbook. 14 : Okay. "Typically, if an 15 inmate is likely to be discharged or 16 transferred following court, their property was 17 retrieved from their cell, boxed and secured 18 with a property form, by receiving and 19 discharged staff. All items are normally 20 accounted for, and inventoried. In order to 21 enter the SHU, all staff not assigned there 22 must identify themselves and sign a logbook, 23 and then be physically escorted by a 24 Correctional Officer. Alternatively, the staff 25 can pick up inmate property at the Unit door. EFTA00060150

179 1 A Correctional Officer assigned to the SHU 2 would have been aware that Reyes' - or any 3 inmates - belongings were removed. At this 4 time, the Correctional Officer should notify a 5 Lieutenant, who would in turn brief 6 was not notified that Reyes' belongings 7 were removed. advised that if he had 8 known that Epstein was without a cell mate, he 9 would have likely put Epstein on psychological 10 observation." But now you're saying you 11 probably would have put him off -- 12 : I would have not put him on 13 psych obs, because I can't. 14 : Right. You would have 15 put him in Fox -? 16 : I would have probably put him 17 - if he was already - if I would have known, 18 between those hours of 1:50 to 4:00, I would 19 say, keep him in the Attorney conference, 20 because guess what? I've got a staff member 21 right there. And where he was, there's a room 22 here, so we normally kept him in these first 23 two rooms. So, you could see him. So, I would 24 just say, hey, just have somebody stay there, 25 and I would have hired somebody. I would have EFTA00060151

180 1 hired anybody. I'll pay you overtime to sit on 2 this guy until I got him - I would have kept 3 him in Attorney conference, right there - until 4 I got him a cell mate. I wouldn't have had to 5 put him on psych - you're not - that's not - I 6 apologize - I can't do that. 7 : All right. So, this line 8 where you said you would have likely put him 9 : No. 10 : -- that's not correct? 11 : No, I wouldn't have done 12 that. 13 : Okay. 14 : That's - because like I said 15 in my earlier statement - if it would have been 16 after the hours of operation, let's say 17 everybody - at 8:00, when he went back to the 18 cell in SHU, and because I was still there, I 19 would have said, no, put him in R&D. Because I 20 got R&D staff there until 10:00 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : I would have called the AW. 23 I would have called the Warden. And 24 unfortunately, we would have the - somebody 25 would have to come in - and we would have been EFTA00060152

181 1 there later than vetting a cell mate for him. 2 : Right. And it says, 3 is not aware of any Lieutenants knowing 4 that Reyes' property was moved." 5 : We didn't know. 6 : Okay. Well, that you 7 know of. may have. 8 : He may have. 9 : But he didn't tell you. 10 : Of course. 11 : Right. 12 : He didn't tell me. 13 "On Saturday, August 10, 14 2019, received a phone call from 15 Lieutenant around 7:00 a.m." 16 : No, that's not accurate. 17 : Okay. 18 : I received the phone call 19 from Lieutenant I believe it was between 20 the hours - approximately - 6:35, between 6:35 21 and 6:45-50. 22 : Okay. 23 : Somewhere in there. 24 "And was told that 25 Epstein was found unresponsive in his cell." EFTA00060153

182 1 But it was 2 3 who called you? : Yes, it was. : Okay. inquired 4 about Epstein's cell mate, and was surprised to 5 hear respond that Epstein did not a cell 6 mate." 7 : That is correct. 8 : So, you immediately said, 9 where is the cell mate? 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. Yeah. Now, this 12 is, again, where I'm getting confused because 13 in the report, they - again - say, " 14 worked a 4:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. shift on 15 August 9, 2019 -- 16 : Right. 17 : -- and you're saying 18 that's not right? 19 : No. He would have worked 20 2:00 to 10:00. 21 : And did he work on August 22 9th, 2:00 to 10:00? 23 : August 9th, on -- 24 : I thought we 25 -- Right here? EFTA00060154

183 1 : I thought we said on 2 August 9th, he didn't work. 3 : He wasn't there. On August 4 9th, he wasn't there. 5 : All right. 6 : So, it's supposedly -- 7 : So, from 4:00 p.m. to 8 10:00 p.m., who was there? 9 : Yeah. But, like, this thing, 10 like, when saying he's non-custody, 11 because you can see these rosters -- 12 : So, was - so, the 13 two - and the Activities Lieutenant was 14 correct? 15 : See, let me - can I school 16 you on something? 17 : Absolutely. Please. 18 : Let me just school you on 19 something. 20 21 here. 22 : These rosters, you see when 23 you printed this roster? You printed this 24 roster here. That says, 06/02/2021. That's 25 this year. I can guarantee you the roster : Please. That's why we're EFTA00060155

184 1 don't look like this back on the day the roster 2 was printed, initially inputted. 3 : So, someone would have 4 changed it? 5 : Somebody went in here and 6 changed it. 7 : But does that mean that - 8 9 : And I can tell you -- 10 -- this is inaccurate, or 11 the other was inaccurate? 12 : -- this is inaccurate. I can 13 tell you why because one, this is how 14 - because I was, like, , non-custody? 15 Why would he make sure that said non-custody? 16 Now, , I temp prompted him to 11. I 17 temp promote him to 11. 18 : Can you circle that? 19 : Because he couldn't have been 20 in the institution by himself. 21 : So, you think that he 22 went in there and put in that (Indiscernible 23 *00:42:09)? 24 : I'm not going to say that. 25 : But that's not what -- EFTA00060156

185 1 2 3 say? 4 : But what I will -- : -- what it normally would : No. Because he become non- 5 custody until, I think it was when he got out 6 of non-custody and became a Counselor, I 7 believe that wasn't until 2020. Not 2020. I 8 think it was the last part of '19, going into 9 '20, or something like that. He was still on 10 Correctional Services. But the thing about 11 this roster, all of these pages right here, any 12 time you make a change, it tells you the date 13 and time of the change. So, let's go here. 14 Time change. Activities Lieutenant 15 That was done on 08/09, III., who - you've got 16 to find out who III. was. 17 : But 08/09. That was 18 prior to the incident. 19 : 08/09, 09. 08/09. That was 20 done in 9:09 a.m. 21 : (Indiscernible 22 *00:43:13). 23 : The Ops Lieutenant. It was 24 . So, took sick leave on that 25 day, and -- EFTA00060157

186 1 : So, was sick 2 leave. 3 changed him 4 on the roster on 08/09, at 8:58 a.m., on 5 Friday, August 9. was relieving an 6 Officer on 08/09, 09, but as you see, where you 7 see III. at? 8 : What are we looking for? 9 10 there. 11 : Oh, and it would have. 12 So, somebody went in, at some point, and put 13 and if he put non-custody, was that somebody 14 trying to cover up, like, hey, I had nothing to 15 do with that? 16 : I wasn't in custody at that 17 time. He put me in there because, you know, 18 why would I do that? You're a Lieutenant. 19 : So, it's somebody trying 20 to say, like, hey -- 21 22 23 24 25 III. Non-custody. It's not I don't know. I got -- : I got -. -- I would have to -- : Look into it. : -- go through it. EFTA00060158

187 1 : But that's something that 2 we should address with 3 : That's something you've got 4 to do, from the time you printed one - look, 5 when you printed one of these rosters, right? I 6 can guarantee you, if you go back to the 583 7 packet, and print out the roster for 08/09 and 8 08/10 of 2019, it's not going to mirror the 9 same. It's going to be changed. It's not 10 going to be the same. 11 : And do we have the 12 ability to do that? 13 : Sure. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 : To go -. : It should be in the 583. : So, we -- : The 583 for the incident : Yup. : -- that occurred? : Mm-hmm. : You understand? : And that will have that 23 roster in there? 24 : For Jeffrey -- 25 : Yup. EFTA00060159

188 1 2 3 4 5 -- Epstein's -- : Mm-hmm. incident. : Okay. Those two copies of that 6 roster should be in there. 7 : Okay. Good point. We'll 8 go back and look at that. 9 : But you printed a couple 10 weeks ago, it's not going to say the - it 11 should. 12 : So, up to - so, just to 13 clarify - up to 08/09 that morning, at 8:58 14 a.m., before that time, it was 15 schedule? 16 : Yeah. 17 : That means he called in and 18 - - at 8:58 a.m. on 19 August 9th, changed it over to 20 : Correct. 21 : So, I wonder why - okay. 22 All right. So, that is inaccurate. 23 24 25 : One more question. Sorry. : So, go ahead. That III., can anyone enter EFTA00060160

189 or it's what it was in the system? 2 3 This is on this. : And we did know that. 4 : Okay. 5 : Okay. 6 : Okay. Anyone enter III., or 7 8 : No. 9 -- or is it -? 10 : Because when you log-in the 11 roster program -- 12 : Okay. It's a system. 13 -- it's done by your Ply card 14 number. 15 : Okay. No problem. That's 16 it. 17 : Okay. 18 : Thank you. 19 : All right. And it says 20 that, Lieutenant is the one who did 21 the 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. shift. 22 : Correct. 23 : It says, " did not 24 personally tell that Epstein required 25 a cell mate at all times. He believed she was EFTA00060161

190 1 aware because he had informed his Lieutenants 2 repeatedly, and instructed them to pass this 3 message along, and convey the information among 4 themselves." Is that correct? 5 : Yes. 6 did not hold a 7 formal all Lieutenants meeting regarding 8 Epstein, or send an all staff e-mail with the 9 Warden's directive." 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : However, you did send 12 emails with regard to -- 13 : Yes. 14 : -- the way that they were 15 supposed to act, and their duties and 16 responsibilities. 17 18 19 : Correct. : And you'll send me that? : Yeah. 20 : Okay. "He verbally 21 instructed his Lieutenants on an informal and 22 individual basis, as many as possible with whom 23 he had the opportunity. On Saturday morning, 24 August 10, 2019, was relived early by 25 ." Now, as far as goes - EFTA00060162

191 1 - her claiming she didn't - if 2 she's claiming she didn't know, and if you 3 didn't specifically tell her, who should have 4 told her? Or how should have she known? 5 : How she would have known is, 6 is that, when she did rounds, she would have 7 saw those cards. 8 : No, no, no. Okay. So -- 9 : She would have known that 10 these inmates are high visibility. And the 11 guidance was already out, so, it was 12 disseminating throughout the Unit. So, the 13 staff was aware. So, of course, probably in, 14 you know, with her, we didn't have a good 15 relationship, but regardless of the fact is, is 16 that I made the Lieutenants aware of my 17 expectations. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : So, even though I might not 20 have told her because she worked the morning 21 watch shift, and by 6:00, she would be gone. I 22 wouldn't see her. 23 : Now, was that abnormal 24 for her to leave before 6:00, before her shift 25 is done? EFTA00060163

192 1 2 6:00. 3 : They was working 10:00 to : Yup. 4 : So, by the time I walked in 5 the door, she would be gone. 6 : But what I'm saying is, 7 if she's leaving before 6:00, is that -? 8 : Now, before 6:00, that would 9 be a problem. 10 : So, even, like, ten 11 minutes before, is that a problem? 12 : Not really. 13 : Okay. 14 : Not really. Because if the 15 relieving person gets there, because knowing 16 the Lieutenants, some Lieutenants come an hour 17 early. Some Lieutenants come ten, 15 minutes 18 early. It's just whatever -- 19 : Okay. 20 : -- happens. Sometimes the 21 Lieutenant has to work late, because they have 22 an incident, or they have administrative duties 23 they have to finish after their shift, which is 24 fine, but they are compensated for that. 25 : Right. Okay. "In the EFTA00060164

193 1 SHU, 30-minute rounds need to be completed 2 consistently, at non-uniform intervals, within 3 a 40-minute timeframe. The purpose of these 4 rounds is to ensure that good order is being 5 maintained, there is no suspicious activity, 6 and all inmates are accounted for and 7 responsive. 30-minute rounds are documenting 8 in TRUSCOPE, which serves as an electronic 9 logbook. After a round is physically done, the 10 Correctional Officer can log into TRUSCOPE and 11 press a button, certifying that the round was 12 completed. Unfortunately, sometimes Officers 13 do not complete a 30-minute round or exceed the 14 40-minute threshold. TRUSCOPE also documents 15 from what location, terminal the rounds are 16 logged." 17 : That's right. 18 • ` is aware of at 19 least two terminals located in the SHU. The 20 only way to determine if a 30-minute round was 21 physically completed is to check the video 22 surveillance footage." 23 : That is correct. 24 : "There are two 25 Correctional Officers assigned to the SHU on EFTA00060165

194 1 morning watch, at midnight. SHU One and SHU 2 Two. SHU Two is responsible for completing 3 rounds." They're both technically responsible. 4 Correct? 5 : Right. 6 : And so, is the SHU Two 7 usually the Officer-in-Charge? 8 : Right. So, basically what 9 would have happened is, they're supposed to, 10 you know, because one has the key. So, I do a 11 round, I come back, then you do a round. Same 12 thing when they do the count. 13 : Now, is it the same thing 14 with counts and rounds, like -- 15 16 count. 17 No, no, I'm sorry, with the : -- so, with a round, if 18 rounds aren't being conducted, does that also 19 mean that everybody in the Unit is to blame? 20 Not just -- 21 22 23 Yes. : -- okay. Right, because 24 : So, it would be -- 25 -- because it, in essence, EFTA00060166

195 1 afterhours, that Lieutenant should go up there 2 and observe the count. 3 : No, but what I'm saying 4 is, like, if a round is signed off on, by one 5 person, but everybody in the Unit, nobody in 6 the Unit did it, and not just the person who 7 signed the round, but also everyone else is 8 also responsible for that falsified round? 9 : Right. 10 : Okay. 11 • 12 ■ 13 counts? 14 • : Everybody -- : It's the same thing for : -- yeah, it don't matter. If 15 you're on the roster, and you're assigned to 16 that Unit, and a falsified document goes up, 17 and you said, like, me and you count, I know we 18 didn't count, but I sign that, and you sign it 19 20 : No, what I'm saying is -- 21 22 then we both -- what I'm saying is, if 23 you sign it, I don't sign it, but we're both 24 responsible? 25 : Right. No. You're going to EFTA00060167

196 1 2 3 4 be responsible because you didn't sign it. But if I said, if I didn't sign it, then I'm going to tell you why. I said, we didn't do the count. I'm going to put a memo in. 5 : So, what I'm -- 6 : I'm going to let the 7 Lieutenant know. It's a big -- 8 : -- so -. 9 : -- that's going to be a big 10 situation. 11 : I guess what I'm saying 12 is, like, all right, so, in these count slips 13 specifically., there's two 14 : Two signatures. 15 : -- two signatures. 16 : Correct. 17 : But there's four people 18 working. 19 : Right. So, whoever -- 20 : So, are the other two 21 people that aren't working, if they didn't 22 report it -- 23 : Right. 24 : -- they're also 25 responsible? EFTA00060168

197 1 : Yes. 2 : All right. Okay. 3 : And then, on the morning 4 watch, there's only two people in the unit. 5 6 7 : Right. : So, they're both complicit. : And I know you said bad 8 count, Officer should come down. How often 9 should - I mean, a Lieutenant should come down 10 - how often should Lieutenants be observing 11 counts? 12 : Okay. Okay. 13 : In the SHU. Let's talk 14 about specifically for the SHU. 15 : Well, in the SHU? In the SHU, 16 a Lieutenant should have been monitoring that - 17 I believe that Ten South count. 18 : Ten South. What about, 19 like, where Epstein was, in regular SHU? 20 : Well, no, but we didn't 21 implement that until after the Epstein 22 incident. 23 : All right. So, up to 24 August 10th, Lieutenants were not observing 25 counts EFTA00060169

198 1 : No. 2 : -- they were simply 3 taking the count -- 4 : Counting in Control. 5 : -- in the Control Room. 6 Okay. 7 : That is Control. That is 8 correct. 9 : Okay. " was aware 10 that the camera system in the SHU was down. He 11 left early on Thursday, when the discussion 12 about the camera system would have occurred. 13 -", what is first 14 name? 15 : I can't remember his first 16 name. 17 : Now, is he, like, a C.O., 18 though? Or, like -- 19 : No. He would be -- 20 • -- a BOP employee? 21 -- he's COMTECH (Phonetic Sp. 22 *00:52:39). 23 : COMTECH, but a BOP 24 employee? 25 : Yes. EFTA00060170

199 1 : "The camera technician 2 notified that he was working on the 3 system earlier that week, but did not 4 know specifics and was not informed that the 5 cameras were not functioning. Since the 6 so, you didn't know that any of the TRU cameras 7 may have been out? 8 : No. 9 : Okay. "Since the -", and 10 who would have been - was he the one 11 responsible for that? 12 : Yes. So -. 13 : So, if he's notified that 14 the camera is now out, how soon thereafter 15 should he get that up and running? 16 : No. If he was aware that the 17 camera system was down and was not working, he 18 should have contacted me, and then, I would 19 immediately contact the AW and the Warden 20 because -- 21 : And in this instance -- 22 : -- that's a Security 23 situation. 24 : -- so, in this instance, 25 he didn't do that? EFTA00060171

200 1 : No. 2 : All right. And would 3 anyone else have known that a SHU camera was 4 down? 5 (Phonetic Sp. 6 *00:53:26). 7 ? And who is 8 9 : He would be the General 10 Foreman. 11 : Okay. 12 : Over Facilities. 13 : So, those two people 14 would have been the ones that knew this camera 15 is out, and they should have notified you? 16 : Yeah. 17 : And they did not? 18 : No. 19 : Okay. Do you know, at 20 this point - and I'm not talking about at the 21 time, but now - do you know what was down and 22 for how long? 23 24 25 I don't know. : No? Okay. I can't remember. I don't EFTA00060172