All right, we're resuming to be quoted proffer of Miss Maxwell. It is 2.16 on Thursday, July 24th. And the recording device is now on. So when we stopped to take a break, we were talking about what has been publicly discussed as a black book or the Epstein list. And that's where we are. So you said you think you might know that you're aware of the origin of this narrative. No, I just want to reiterate again, there is no list that I am aware of at any time, at least, during the period of time when I was present. OK. The origin of this story, I believe, begins, or it has a beginning in 2009, and then it has a prequel that we have to start in 2009. In 2009, there is, Epstein is, I think, out of jail. And there are civil suits taking place. Many of these are coming out of a disgraced law firm, Rossine Adler, Rossine Rosenfeldt, and Adler. At that law firm is a lawyer who started in April, May 2009, called Brad Edwards. In 2009, allegedly, the FBI gets a call in October of 2009 from Brad Edwards. He allegedly tells them that he has come across a piece of evidence that belongs to Epstein that contains a list of all of his clients and victims underage girls, massage therapists, and the men who are having sex with them. And he becomes, he Brad Edwards becomes a co-operating witness, co-operating confidential information, confidential informant for them. And in a sting operation, obtains the list from a former bachelor of Epstein called Alfredo Rodriguez. And it becomes evidence in the civil suit. In the Alfredo Rodriguez is subsequently prosecuted for having an AK-47 or something weird, some guns, or something. And goes to trial, and there's a criminal complaint that the FBI produced, and in that criminal complaint, it says that Brad Edwards became aware of the list, but we'll call it the list for the purposes of this. After Alfredo Rodriguez's two depositions that are held in Epstein's civil suit, it's in the FBI's affidavit that the evidence was collected, and Brad Edwards became aware of it after the second acquisition, it's in the criminal complaint. The truth is different from what's in both the criminal complaint and in that FBI affidavit, and in Brad Edwards' own statements on the subject. The truth is that Alfredo Rodriguez was deposed twice once in July and once in August, and in the July deposition told Brad Edwards that he had handwritten notes or a journal or whatever in the deposition, and Brad Edwards replies, well, we're going to come back for a second deposition, and the second deposition takes place in August. What this means is that Brad Edwards had access to the list from sometime between July and August until when he actually called the FBI in October. So we're talking six months or so. Rusty and his firm was raided a few days after the list went into the FBI's hands, and subsequently Rusty and himself was prosecuted for Rico, and I believe went to jail for 50 years. As part of that Rico case, he admitted to on the record, and I don't know whether he was prosecute for creating fake settlements and fake evidence in Epstein's case. In 2009, simultaneously, whilst this was going on, my boyfriend, Tedweight, was asked for $10 million to keep me out of any of Epstein's civil suits. Up until then, I had not been in any of Epstein's civil suits. In fact, I wasn't even sure for the first time I was mentioned by I hadn't been, I was basically nowhere. And then Ted was called for this $10 million and had been shown, his people had been shown evidence that included the list, the flight logs, and various other pieces of evidence. Now we're going to the prequel part of this story, so then it can tie to how this starts. In 2007, Epstein signs the non-prossecution agreement. He then fights the proscenification of the mental world, and debates it through the DOJ or whatever happened there, and goes to the court in 2008 when it's accepted or whatever. Villafana was the lead prosecutor in that case, and she, I think, was not happy with the outcome. And utilised at that time, Brad Edwards to file the CVRA case. Now, what I have managed to understand from this is within the OPR itself there is evidence. There it says that Brad Edwards was the only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to, so I just want to preface that. The reason why I know that she went behind a costus back and everything else to do this is because Brad Edwards, in a podcast, made the revelation. What he says is that he'd never heard of the CVRA case before, and Villafana called him and told him to file it. The sole purpose of the CVRA was to overturn the non-prossecution agreement. So what I believe is that Villafana worked with Brad Edwards who she had also been. He was the lawyer that she had selected as a pro bono lawyer for some of the victims. And he was also working for Ross Dean's firm that was under Rico investigation for that entire time, creating fake evidence in Epstein's case. And she had just filed hidden secret using Edwards to overturn the NPA by filing the non-prossecution agreement. But sole purpose was to overturn it. And so when he approached her with the list, this was part of the effort to utilize and find new evidence to support that overturning either of the NPA and or of the new case against Epstein. Because Brad Edwards or I don't know if it was Brad Edwards, because Ross Dean's firm asked my then boyfriend for $10 million to kick me out of suits that I had no knowledge of at that time whatsoever, I now know that the base of this story was a blackmail of a billionaire, because Ted Wade was a multi-billionaire. He had everything, he was way, way more wealthy than Epstein, if anyone cares. And that is the reason I had my Aprilio. Or was the basis of it? True. And that list was created. So then the mussuces that were on that list, I had never heard of some of them. I, not even from the civil suits that had come up since I've seen it. This is me now knowing what's in the list today. And I believe that, oh, Alfredo Rodriguez. So there's a metamorphosis of this list. So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes that Brad Edwards makes that's in the documents contemporaneously is that it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has. It then morphs into something that Alfredo took a book that Alfredo took from Epstein's computer, but there's no computer I know, certainly not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken, that came out as a book. And then it morphed into at the civil time, my civil cases into a book that was taken from my computer. And then it morphed into the Southern District of New York as a combination list of mine and Epstein's. That is a metamorphosis through documents that you can trace. So the little that there in your mind, from what you just described, there is a list. It's just it's just manufacturer. I mean have you seen the list even fake? I haven't seen it, but I guess my thing is that what Brad Edwards says in all of these things is in the paper work and whatnot. And then all this stories basically controlled by five people, there's four alleged victims that speak about the list and the black male and the men and the sex and whatnot and the lawyers and now the prosecutors, sorry, the Southern District of New York for sure, but no one else. None of these stories carry from any of the 44 alleged original victims. They never ever say that they were farmed out to anybody. But the list itself, where is it? There is no list, but Brad Edwards said that he created a list. Sorry, he created a list. So in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez produced that became evidence, exhibit 52 in my trial, have markings all over its circles and dots and whatnot. And Alfredo Rodriguez says that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of all the people who were involved. It includes Alan Dershwitz for the record who's marked. I don't remember what it does with Donald Trump. I don't know, I don't know you'd have to look. I don't have it. But I believe, so he did he marked up, I don't know, somebody marked up that book of names. And I think all the names of the people that they went for were originally selected between two sources. One was this alleged book of names. And one was also from the telephone locks that were collected from the house in Palm Beach. And just to finish it off, if there is a note, I have some papers for you, if you wanted them, where Brad Edwards says that he has a list of 25 men that he got money off. So, okay, so the list that everybody, the black book, the list, what you're saying is that you're your exhibit 52 from your trial, which is like a more of an address book, a Rolodex type thing, that Mr. Rodriguez, Alfredo Rodriguez, you're understanding is that somewhere along the way he went through and kind of marked that list, to say. I don't know where that book actually comes from. Okay. I don't know what that book is. That book is some type of a compilation. But what it is, is it's just pieces of paper with type. So if you had, you could have made a list, I could put, okay, but you refer to someone that's been public for a long time. If we're thinking about the same thing, you're talking about the, you write it's like a bunch of different types of paper or whatever, I only have a copy of it, but with big parts of it redacted publicly, because the people's address is more of a problem. Yes, that's what I'm talking about. Okay. So it, oh, perfect. Yes, so you will find, we're looking at exhibit 52 now. Okay, so you're looking at exhibit 52. So the one they produced, they, the sum district of New York actually produced a book for me to see it as evidence for the actual thing it was. And I, it has marks, it has tabs, it has things, it has names, I've never seen. It had like that list, those, that list was basically the names that they choose to produce a trial. Now in Rustine Adams firm, I also have some documents where, it's Rustine, his original scheme at Rustine Adler was to place prostitute. He had a bar, a dancey bar where he had girls and I believe he would use them and put them as fake secretaries in people's offices and then she might touch him or he might touch her or something and believe he got $25,000 for that. And those girls, they're not saying that those are the girls that came in Epstein's case necessarily. But the, so, but again, let's like, so we're separating the evidence that came in at your trial. And what you just talked about with Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez, during the time that you were with Mr. Epstein and even in the 2000s when you were around lustrically, you never observed, you were, you never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of individuals who link to certain masseuses or anything like that. Absolutely. No. There is no list. There is no, I'm not aware of any black male. I never heard, I never heard that, I never saw it and I never, I never imagined it. Well, we're on this topic just, I'm going to know we're jumping around and we've been going out for a while, so I apologize. But there's recently been reports about a birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein, I think for his 50th birthday in 2003. That's true. What do you know about that? So my mom did a birthday book for my father at his 60th. And when I, Epstein, we talked about his 50th birthday, he said, I don't know what I'm going to do and I said, well, that's a nice thing, so my mom did this book for my dad. He said, I love that idea. He said, can you help coordinate it? And he organized who, he called a lot of the people himself. I coordinated the putting together of the book and in some instances I called people that asked him to continue. What was in the book? What was the ask of the people you call? It's his 50th birthday, the same thing you want on the piece of paper. I mean nothing. I mean, it was an obvious question, but you basically, his folks were invited to send something to you to celebrate his birthday. Yes, to say happy birthday with like, having a wonderful day or something else. There was no, there was no ask. But I wasn't responsible for everybody in that book and there were people that he would ask himself to contribute. Do you remember some, do you remember specific names of individuals who did send letters or who did contribute? It's been so long I want to tell you that I don't remember. I don't want to see that. The article talks about several names, but including the folks, the article, which is on Donald Trump. Do you remember President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a note? Do you think the articles, well, do you remember seeing that book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York? Yes. What do you remember seeing? I remember there was, there were some portions of that book, but what surprised me, yeah, what surprised me was how few there were, because I thought if you had those were the rest, there was none of Mr. Trump in your discovery. In my discovery, sorry, President Trump, there was nothing from President Trump. Do you remember, but separate and apart from your discovery, do you remember one where the other were the President Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday? I do not remember. And the article that references the letter talks about, like a, so like they're a picture of naked woman or something like that. Do you have any recollection of that? I do not. No, I don't. Do you remember, so what do you remember seeing from your discovery around the book? Like you said portions of it or some of the things? I remember, there were maybe, I just want to say about this discovery that I had about, maybe this is an exaggeration, I'm not sure, but in my mind it's about close to five million documents. It was a lot. And of that giant document dump that I received, I was only, that maybe as much as 30 to 35 percent, I was never able to access. And this is documented on the court. And so I cannot say that I saw everything because I didn't. Yeah, okay. That just what you did. And I think that that was by design. But you, but you do remember, I do remember some pages. Seeing some pages. I did, yes. Okay. Do you remember what pages you saw? Like from who had written those letters or no? I really don't remember, sorry. Okay. Did you, did you, and or said the same questions we've asked about some other individuals? Did you have, did you meet Bill Gates over the years? Yes. Because of your relationship with Mr. Epstein or separate? That one. Well, I met Mr. Gates. I went to the conference, I think I went to take conference and I actually spoke at the time conference. Not the main stage, the substage. And I also gave several TEDxs. But and I met him there, but we were printing and I actually did meet him because I knew his, I don't know if he's chief of staff or whoever, Boris. And I met him, I think, once. I, I may have met him actually at 71st Street. I, I may have once. I don't remember if I met him there or to a restaurant. I don't remember. And that would have been because of Epstein, because Epstein was friendly with Boris and Boris. But that's what I remember. Do you know what Mr. Gates traveled with Mr. Epstein on his plane to any of his houses? So if that, that friendship was after, it was in the late 2000s. So if I met him, like I said, I went to Epstein's house and he wants to, twice, I may be a met him there, I don't remember. So you don't? So I wouldn't know if he had been on Epstein. And you weren't, you don't recall her being on the plane with him, applying to the island or to anywhere? No. Do you know some of my name Reed Hoffman? I do. Who's that? Reed's a Silicon Valley guy. Is what? Silicon Valley. And how do you know him? Through my friends in San Francisco, I have a, I used to have a very close friend who's in San Francisco who's part of that whole, that's a relationship, or head. So is that a relationship, if you have kind of separate in apart from Mr. Epstein? Separate. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein had a relationship with Reed Hoffman? I did. Did you ever observe Mr. Hoffman flying anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein or giving me such as? No. So there was, there's a list, a list of multiple, masseuses that is floating around. I think you had any discovery. I think you were just talking about that. That list, do you know how that list was created? No. That, all that stuff that came out of that book, I now find suspect. It's far, it's part of the story. You just told us. Yes. Now I'm not saying it's all fake. I didn't know what's real, what's not. I don't know what name is true. Now that it's been to my mind anyway, now that it has been without a doubt contaminated and possibly fraudulent, I, I, I'm not, I don't know. I mean obviously the numbers that I recognize in my own, those are real. But how it was actually ended up put together and compiled and the purposes for it, for which then the black male, my boyfriend, now I'm just, over the years when you were serving as like the general manager. So the mid 90s all the way into the 2000s, did you, or do you know whether anyone maintained a list of all the masseuses like a running list? So there would, so there's two things, well three ways. So I know that the house itself, John and S.I. had a roller dex that he kept the names and numbers of all the people that came to the house so that he could call. So because I only was with X team even at best half the time. So when I was there, he had like his chief of staff who could find whatever he needed. And when I wasn't there, he had to learn somebody else, right? So if we get that John and Lessie or whoever else. So everybody, whoever was traveling with him or have a wherever he was, he needed somebody else to access information. So he had an assistant, chief of who was his secretary, who would be the one that would update his, his computer. You know, like everybody has an address, but... But was, was what you're describing, which, I'm not, I'm not making sense. I'm just, was that a list of masseuses or a list of people that might need to be contacted, which would necessarily include a lot of masseuses. That's the latter. And did you, did you update the, like were you part of, were you one of the people that would add names to it? Like if if a masseuse came and leaves and Mr. Ruffin says yes, she was good, would you be part of, like, how was the list kind of maintained? Or who maintained it? The, typically no, because there would be an assistant who would do that. Plus, Epstein would not allow me to answer the telephone ever. So, it would maintain or keep any of his messages in the office or at the house. So, typically that wouldn't be, because I wouldn't be the one, could I say to you I never did. No, of course not, because that just seems ludicrous. But as a rule of thumb, the answer would be no. During the 2007, eight, nine, investigate the investigation out of the Sellevdesk of Florida. So, you said that you weren't contacted by law enforcement. After Mr. Epstein was charged, did you have conversations with him about the investigation? He never talked to me about it. Did you, I mean, I can't, let's put this way. If he did, I have no recollection. I mean, I'm sure he must have said, this is all, whatever he said or it's nothing, I mean, I just don't have any, I just don't have any memory. I mean, I just, I was, I was with Ted. My, I was like gone. I mean, a plus, I just didn't want to know, I know. So, you don't know firsthand why the US Attorney in Florida made the deal that he did. I mean, you weren't part of that discussion along the way. Like, Mr. Epstein didn't say, I'm getting a good deal or, you know, I, uh, something's happening with the case. It's very good. You, you, you, to the extent you know anything about it, it's just from what you've heard or read from others, not from Mr. Epstein, is that right? He never talked about the known prosecution direct. He was mean, but um, he did. But it's still enforceable. I mean, he never said, hey, do you, are you happy with this deal? Like that. But I understood. He never, he never enjoyed me to the MPA, but I understand that he included me specifically and I'll tell you why. Well, it's okay. You don't need to get into that. No, yeah. I don't want to talk about the legal that what's on appeal. I'm just, no, I want, well, the reason for my question, just to be, I'm not trying to identify it. There's, there's a very strong belief that he got a very good deal and that and that he should, he should have been sentenced to more time or got a different sentence from the feds and an out prosecution agreement. And I'm not asking you to apply on that, but I'm wondering whether he ever talked to you about that, but it sounds like he didn't. No. He got a good deal. No. I think actually, well, his comments that I've read was that he didn't get a good deal. And I think that, you know, when he fought it so hard, it's because he didn't think he did. When, when he was serving a sentence, were you ever, were you around during that time, like when he was allowed to leave during the day or travel during the day? I never called him. I never saw him and I never went to the jail. So I'm going to ask you questions that you shouldn't read in them. I just want to know whether you, whether they, they'd resonate with you. Have you ever had any contact with any representative that, you know, I've, from Masad, the Israeli intelligence agency? Can you ask me not again? Has, if you have any contact with an individual that you understand to be from Masad and Israeli intelligence agency? Well, not deliberately. Not deliberately. And did you know, we asked this, we talked on this a little bit earlier, just to put a finer point on it. Did you ever know that Mr, did you ever, we ever told you ever think that Mr. Epstein was getting any money from any intelligence agency, including Masad? I, well, I don't believe so, but I wouldn't know. I mean, I would be very surprised if he did. I don't think so. No. We've talked about a lot of names and I'm sure we've, there's some that we haven't covered. Are there any foreign nationals? So right now we've talked about some British, the Royal Family a little bit and maybe high society folks in Britain. Were there any international businessmen and politicians that, that had a very close relationship or a close relationship with Mr. Epstein, that we haven't heard talked about? Oh, the top of my head, I can think of the Hood Baroque. You said that Mr. Epstein, at some point in the mid to late 90s, he started taking testosterone. Did you ever know him to take any other drugs? No. I mean, he took pills for his heart, I think. But I don't know what, no substances. What, do you know anything about his heart condition? I know we talked about this at, you know, 9.45 this morning, but do anything about his heart condition and beyond that you understood he had a heart condition that affected his ability to to have sex? I don't know what he told me. No, he never shared anything, but he did take pills. So I don't know, I don't know anything about that and like I said, he did the testosterone, which made him mean. And we're jumping around a little bit. Sorry. Do you know something named Donald Bar? No. He is, I can represent to you. What's the former headmaster of the Dalton School? What you mentioned earlier? All right. Do you remember any conversations with him and after seeing about a book that Mr. Bar wrote called Space Relations? About aliens and sex. Yeah. Do you know whether, well, have you ever met the former Attorney General of the United States, Bill Barr? No. Do you remember whether Mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came up in conversations you had with Mr. Epstein? I don't recall any. Did you have a relationship or no, I'm using relationship but I appreciate you don't like that word. Did you know Mr. Epstein's brother Mark Epstein? Yes. How did you know him? Through Jeffrey. How would you describe your relationship? Close, friendly. My personal? Yes. Not that close, but friendly enough. I mean, you know. How was Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with his brother Mark from what you observed? I mean, they weren't brotherly, but I think that I don't know. They had periods when they were closer and then when they weren't, I think sometimes Epstein found his brother irritating. And I think I know the answer is given what you just said about Bill Barr, but did you ever hear any from Mr. Epstein or anybody else that Bill Barr had any role in Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida or any role in that process with Mr. Acosta? I never heard that. I think you said this in an interview, but if I'm wrong, forgive me. Do you have a view of Mr. Epstein whether he committed suicide or whether something else happened? Can we take a break? Yeah, sure. Yeah, we can. Yeah, sure. Actually, it's a good time to take a break anyway. Please. We'll last one of the day. All right, so we're going to take a break at it's 253 Thursday, July 24th.