I definitely witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein's behaviour and a modification, if you will, where in the past and the early 90s, I don't remember travelling so much with other people, whether they were a masseuse or a yoga person, but now he started to travel with more autism, as always, whereas in the past it wasn't always a masseuse or an instructor so there was now starting to be always an individual or a friend or whatever, there's always like, maybe the word would be on tarage, but these were always people in the late 20s, early 30s in my memory, as I observed that time, and he tasked me with finding a local masseuse for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes, even though I say he would always travel with an entourage, sometimes he didn't and he wanted to have a masseuse locally, so I visited the spars that were local in St. Thomas and in St. John, and if I met someone, man or a woman actually, because it was difficult to find somebody in St. Thomas, it's not exactly, you know, so I did find a couple of people who would come, so that's how they came, because also it was a schlep, so if you had somebody who came it would be, you'd have to, you know, boat ride in several hours, it wasn't just a, it's not like arriving with the other sergeant people and stuff, so there was that, so I did do that. So, over the years, males also give massages to a serposing? Yes, I did say, I don't think, at the beginning, definitely, and I would say towards, sort of, again, late 90s, I don't remember any men, they were at the beginning, I think, in that, towards the late 90s, I kind of think of any men, I have anything for them. Did you, you talked about entourage flying, right now we're talking about the island, did you observe any sexual, I was going to say, misconduct, any sexual, any sex at all, whatsoever, on the plane? Never on the plane, no. Was there a part of the plane that was closed off from others where Mr. Epstein could go and get a massage? Yeah, okay, so that's a good question, so there were two planes, so you had the, there was a gold stream, and that's an open plane, so, anything, I mean, there was a sofa that turned into a bed, and he did sleep on that, and then, but in the Boeing, which he flew on a lot, there was his area, could be closed off with a door, and behind that door there would be, there was a bedroom and an office, so if that door was shut, you wouldn't see it. But do you, so if you never observed Mr. Epstein engaging in sex or getting a massage with somebody, with whether the masseuse was not clothed on the plane? I can't say that, I might have, I definitely might have either, both in the gold stream or in the, I'm sure I did, but it's not, I can't. I'm sorry. Okay. I'm actually sure I did, I must have, because he was so obsessed with someone rubbing his feet, or just, when you ask me about massages, I'd be clear, I generally, what I think of that is somebody on a massage table, but other people might think of it as something different, you know, you could have someone rubbing his feet, you'd always told it, I saw that all the time, that I did, but that's separate from being on a massage table. How, again, I know what we're talking about, a decade long period, but during the period we're talking about, in a seven-day week, how often would Mr. Epstein get a massage? In the 90s, when we're talking, he would get one every day. I think as that time progressed, he would get one maybe twice a day. I do want to say that there was maybe a reason that things altered or morphed or progressed, and it is maybe part of the reason also that I, here and I, our relationship or have somebody wants to call it altered, and he started doing testosterone, and that altered his character. And I believe that started in the late 90s, and I believe that the FBI has his medical records, and you may see that on his medical records. So you believe that he started taking testosterone in the 90s, and when you say that altered his behavior, you're saying it wanted to make him get more massage-ish, or that was just one part of what changed about him. Well, he became more aggressive. Nice. And I think that he may be, well, now I'm just imagining that the testosterone for an altered his desires, or something, the second one. So when given what you've said, the Pascale Blowers about his kind of progression or change, let's focus on that time period, so the more towards the late 90s, the 96, 978, you know, when you've said that he changed. Did you know flat out that he was having sex or otherwise some sort of sexual conduct with masseuses regularly? Flat out, no, I denied that. I couldn't imagine that he would, but I think looking back now that I did not. But I started to suspect that he was not faithful. Seems ludicrous, but that's what I thought. But if he's flying from Palm Beach to St. Thomas, or if he's flying all over the country to New Mexico or to New York, or even in Palm Beach, and there's young women putting aside whether they're under the age of 18 or in their 20s, every day at the house, multiple masseuses, multiple massages on some days, you're interacting with the masseuses constantly, or maybe that's not right. Let me take back what I just said. Ignore that part. But you understand that he's getting massages every day, sometimes multiple times a day. But in the late 90s, it's all women, presumably, some of them are new, but they're also repeat masseuses. What did you, I mean, you had to know at that point that there was something going on beyond just he really needed to get a massage? Very fair question. Those two things. The first is the person that he saw the most at that period time was in her forties, and she was with him all the time. And I'm married as well. And as I'm square, and it never occurred, well, I don't believe it occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he would be having relations. And he was with her. That was the person he had the most massages yoga and that with, at that time, in the 90s period. The second thing is that he told me he didn't, he had to fully have an interaction. And I believed him. When you said he said that, I mean, he regularly told you that like he... When I first, because when I didn't have sex with him after the first time, and it took so I asked, was it me? And he told me it was him. And I'd never, up until this moment in my life, I'm not stupid, I'm very bright, I've had an excellent education, I'd traveled all over the world, I had had boyfriends. But I had never met or understood that somebody could be so... Would lie to me about... It never occurred to me. I didn't have a frame of context within my life experience where somebody would be so manipulative and devious with me. And plus I didn't have... And I was happy not to have sex because I have a condition that doesn't lend itself to them. So, when you learned so fast forward just for a moment to the 2007-09 time period and he's arrested and charged and there's all kinds of press around his purport of contact, at that point did you... At that point did you accept that that was true, meaning did it make sense at that point when you were reading about women who claimed that they had been abused even under age? And at that point did you think you're softwell-gees? That makes sense now that I think about it or not. First of all, I didn't... I need read what was in the newspapers, I didn't have any other thing. And I'm embarrassed to say it, I didn't believe it. Right, I mean you didn't believe that the accusations were true at the time. Yeah. So let's... And sorry I need to say even if they were true, I believe that he was juved and he didn't know that they were... Whatever it was in the papers at that time whether they said that they were 17 or I didn't register. Along with all of those, well not in 2006 but later when the... Just more salacious than other allegations came out. I knew were utterly false, which then just reinforced my belief that the rest was not true. Let me ask you a question about the age of the masseuses over the years. I think in my mind there's a difference between you knowing or not knowing that a masseuse is under the age of 18 and coming to give a massage. And you knowing that the strap scene sexually abused the underage person or made her strip or something like that. Meaning, and I want to understand whether you believe that nobody that came to give a massage is none of the women were under 18 or that you... You didn't focus on their age but you were more focused on whether any underage woman was abused by him. I think it's better to answer this question with corroborating evidence and then go back and explain so I frame your understanding of what I'm saying. Of the... My understanding is that at 2000 and let's say 2008 they had interviewed 44 women, let's say, around that number. You have to understand not a single one of those 44 women mentioned me in a single report. And it's not because... Go back. They didn't mention me in the report because they never met me. They never saw me and they never interacted with me. So to go back to your question, it's not that I thought one way or another. It's that I didn't see them. Okay. I see. Okay. Does that... Yeah, yeah, that's that's awful. So... And when I say not one, not one single one of those reports talks about me. And I just want to clarify exactly because I'm obviously aware that one of those girls was one of the witnesses in my trial specifically. To use her own testimony so that you don't have to hear my point of view is better if it comes from her own words and that way there's no second guessing of what I'm saying. And herself said that I recruited her, I recruited her and I'm trained. Those are own words. That was a game of this. You didn't know. I mean, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I really do have some slow cognition issues. So she testifies that it was that recruited her and trained her and not you. So wait, so then in her first FBI meeting, she reports seeing a woman with short dark hair at the house, which then is used as evidence that that person was myself. The maid, lady who helped keep the house, John's a lessons wife, owned with an accent, I believe she said. John a lessons wife, had short dark hair and an accent. I'm sorry, but I find that you can ask yourselves this. I mean, I've obviously modified my accent. I've been in America a long time but I'm British. I've been brought up with a very strong British accent and I don't believe there's American on planet Earth that doesn't recognize this to be British Australian maybe if you really don't know. But it's not some random accent. Now the Hispanic maybe, okay, that was John's wife but she's not me. And I'd like to point out further how you potentially her own through her own words. Why don't we stop there in a second. So just look, I want to try to, I think probably tomorrow, I want to talk more about the evidence against you and how to address that. So, don't apologize. That's helpful. But I don't want you to be burdened. I want you to just tell the truth the best you can. So I don't want you to be burdened by what people said a trial or what you know the press has about you. I just thought it was illustrative when you asked it question because it was. I did not. I absolutely have no memory at any, no, I'm leaving separate to this obviously. So that's a separate story. I'm not going to pretend. Well, we will get it. Yes, go ahead. But in the terms of the scheme or whatever however you want to determine what you're calling that. I have no memory, no active, anything of having seen anybody that resembles a young child that's called it what it is. At that house giving him an massage at all. It's not even like I did this. It's an at all. And 44 people didn't see me or talk about me either, including. Did, did I'm, and when you say that house. Oh, sorry, I'm beach. You know, I don't know what you mean, but it does the same memory or lack of a ploy to on planes in New Mexico, in New York. Well, with some other important caveats. Well, on that, the Berlin Jane in my trial was clearly underage, clearly a child. And I only saw her in Palm Beach. And I only saw her with her mother. The other person is clearly also not an adult or even coded. I believe I remember her now. That would be the only two, three. So, um, Did you ever know Mr. Epstein to communicate with FBI agents, either like intelligence FBI agents like as a source or just generally with FBI agents? No. Do you think if he had done that, you would have known like he would have told you something like that? Like if I said to you, Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI. Would you say that's crazy? No, he wasn't or maybe he was. He wouldn't tell me that anyway. Um, back two answers for that. I think if he was for real, I think he would have bragged about it to me as a show off, because he could be a show off. And if he wasn't, he might have dropped it like he was cool. And I don't think I'd remember him doing either. Now, with again the caveat that in his before I met him finding money, I think he may have suggested that there was people who helped him. But that's the only context that I recall that. What did you write that when you said find money? Well, his business where he, when I told you, I think in that context he made, he showed me a photograph that he had with some African walldards or something that he told me and, you know, I don't remember if that's what I interpreted. That kind of thing or whether it was something like that. That's the only actual active memory I have of something nefarious. I don't even know if it was nefarious, but covert icebergs would be the word. And what about any other intelligence agency, like the CIA or defense intelligence or any other law enforcement agency? I don't think so. I don't remember anything like that. I don't think he had the, where we all, and I think that whole aspect of that is, can he use a bad word? Yes. Yes. Bullshit. And what do you, you think is Bullshit meaning, what do you mean? Would you have known if he was, would he have been bragging to you, would he have been saying these things? I think he was, because I think, I'm sorry. I think that, I think one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my family connections and why he liked other people was because they were cool or whatever. And I think that, certainly early in when I met him, he would have tried to impress me. I would try to show off, if he will, like he was that guy, you know. And he wasn't that guy. And so, and I think that he would have tried to bullshit me and he didn't. So I think it's, did I? Well, he may have tried to bullshit me, but not, sorry. So I want to just shift for a few minutes to talk about post 2000, 2000, 2000 to kind of when your relationship changed over the years with him. Did there come a time when he misrupts and did meet members of the Royal Family? Yes. When was that? So I need to go back, because I think I may have mis- spoke, I didn't mispeed, but I got something that I had. Of course, before I met Epstein, he lived in London for a period of time. I don't know for how long. And he met and knew some truly fancy people, like people, high society people. That included Princess Diana's best friend. Her name was Rosa Muntum and Rosa's husband Dominic Lawson, who's a famous journalist, actually, he's a very well-known journalist. And when I... And he had... He was friends with the bearings, bearings bang. He had, like, sort of... There. That was... Before you met me. Before, so in the 80s. 80s. Yes. He was dating Eva Anderson. Miss Sweden, I think. I don't know when she became Miss. Okay, so earlier when you said that he met them later, you think he may have met some members of the Royal Family in a certain British high society. He met... I don't know about the Royal Family, but certainly high society. Okay. And the reason why I know this is because sometimes, this is a documentable, I think, documentable, whatever. There's a photograph that can give you the day because I don't remember what the date is of this. So there's something that will peg whatever this date is. I don't remember when that is. Epstein went to London without... It often went everywhere without me, but he was in London without me, which was... Well, decently unusual because London's my hometown, but anyway, he went without me. And he went to a big event in... I think it was in the part... Anyway, it was big event. It's on the news. It's like a photograph of it. And he... I don't know if he sat with Diana or met Diana or did she? Met her. I don't know, but this, I believe, was organised by Rosa. And so there's... I don't know if she was being sat up as a date for him maybe because... I don't... I don't speak bad of Diana, but I'm not going to do sex. Okay, so that was pretty meeting you. No, that was... When that event happened when we were... Oh, okay, that was not right. No, it's when we were... I'm not going to say together, but... Okay, and how about this? When I was his employee, I think. Okay, better. So now moving back to the 2000s, there come a time when... Mr. Epstein met Prince Andrew? Yes. And others in the real family are just Prince Andrew as far as you know. Well... So... As much as I can piece it together, but first of all, let's just say I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew or to Sariflex. That is a flat untreat. So now I'm going to tell you how he did actually meet him. So, I... If you find me that photograph I can date that time when you met Prince Andrew at that event. And based on that, I'll be able to tell you if it's pre-opposed that event. Because I haven't looked it up. And I've never bothered to check. So... Lin Forrester, who was a client or some type of client or... I think she actually tried to date him or might have dated him for the record. She was in... Do you want to ask me something? No, look over there. She was... She had a house or she rented a house and the vineyard. I think it was in the vineyard or in an attack kit. I can't remember now which one it was. It was one of those. So I didn't attack it or the vineyard. And invited... Epstein to go. And I believe... I believe that's when he met Prince Andrew. However, I believe that before that event he had gone to the Bahamas and had hung out with Sarah Ferguson. And Sarah had called Epstein and had arranged with Lin or... I don't know, now I'm speculating. Anyway, long and short, he met Andrew at that. And I'm not holding you to an exact date. But when... But we can date it from that picture. If you find me the picture. But you know, without looking at a photo in your mind, approximately when was that? I want to say it was 2000, no, probably 2001, 2002. There were 2000s. Yes. And I think it was actually... Prince Andrew himself, who suggested that he met Jeffrey Epstein through you. I think that's true. So, well... It's true that Andrew has slept that. No, I'm sure it's true. Because I... I mean this. And my close friends are all close friends with Sarah and Andrew. And I would not say that I was close friends with Andrew before. But certainly we were friendly. And certainly his best friends. Some of them are very, very close with me. And I think that my friendship... My... Be being present. Or me is what made Andrew... Like Jeffrey Moore. Like, trust him. Or I think that's... So you don't dispute that you kind of had a role in getting together. You're just saying you didn't say... I would never have introduced him. I couldn't imagine them being very good to talk to you. But I mean for real, there's nothing that can happen. So he met Prince Andrew. And then he had a really good relationship. I don't know, I don't know. That word sounds funky. They had a print. Quainture. Thank you. And through Sarah, actually, I think Sarah is the one that pushed that. And they met and hung out. I want to say two or three times that had nothing to do with me. I wasn't communicating with Andrew. I wasn't in touch with him. And I know this because I was annoyed. And I fell... Left out. And I fell... Disrespected. And I was like, this is weird. I couldn't even imagine Epstein and Andrew together. And I thought that Sarah was trying to put the movies on Jeffrey if I'm being honest. And I thought the whole thing was annoying. And I was pissed. So what happened with the relationship, putting aside the publicity around Prince Andrew's purported relationship with... What happened as far as you know with Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein's relationship from the times you just described? Okay, so after that, at some point, Jeffrey told me, Epstein told me that Andrew was coming to New York and I needed to organize the whole thing. That's classic, by the way. Classic, Epstein. Of course, if someone's like, we're very fine, whatever. And because he wanted to make sure that Andrew was taking care of and that he was comfortable, he had whatever he needed. Yada, yada, yada. And I'm like, well, am I going to meet him or you're just going to have me do all the job? And he said, well, you know, you can come and say hello. Right, wow. So many nice of you for real. Because you have to understand, like I don't know if I told you this before, but I did not have the keys to it. So I was not allowed to code to his house unless I was summoned or told. I was not allowed to answer his phones. We can go there. But anyway, so this... We can tell this a bit of the sort of point. But, anyway. So Andrew came and of course, the minute we got together, I was like, yay, hi. And then it was so nice because the difference of being in England with Prince Andrew versus being in New York without all the bullshit worth and say. And our friendship just lit up like this. Because we're solving you that I'm safe. I mean, safe as in... I'm not, you know, the idle damps are all taking a page. Not many millionaires would do something so gross. And we honestly go on like a house offer. I really liked him a lot. And he's... It was so nice. And we just became really, really good friends. Much more so than when we were in London, their families. And then with respect to... And Prince Andrew, what do you know about that relationship? If you'd like to ask that again, relationships are big words. Like I said, I don't like the word. Let's just start that. Okay. So I have read... I just want to, like, piece of... But before you say what you read, because that's one of the problems is that we're all kind of... All right, all right. We're all informed by like all the publicity and information around whatever they also said. Like, what do you... What do you think? Or what did you see? What did you hear? What's an even bigger word than bullshit? It's okay. Why? Well go ahead, just finish that thought. Why do you think that? I'm going to tell you right now. I'm so happy to tell you. I'm like excited. I'm beyond excited. Okay, so... There's going to make sure of what I've actually seen and know from the evidence and versus what I've been together. I'm impossible for me at this point to separate everything, but I'll tell you what I know, versus what I saw and what I'm physically having here. But it's hopeful for you to know. So... The allegation I have to go with the allegation. The allegation was that at my house in London, in March, whatever that was, 2001, I believe. We went to London, especially, so that... I could have a relationship with Prince Andrew and she was paid a vast amount of money for that purpose. Okay. And that she then got in my bathroom in my house in London and had sex relations with them and went into my guest room and had full-blown sex and then left my house. Oh, he left and she fell used and disgusting. And a photograph was taken of them just before all these events took place in my study. That is what is the story. Oh, and then after that she met in several other times but we'll come to that room. This is where it will allegedly start. And they went to Trent. Oh, right, right, right. We went to a nightclub, that night. Oh, we went to dinner, right? We went to dinner and then to Trent. Okay, so the first thing about that weekend, that specific weekend was it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in the country. And I have some corroborating evidence for that and a lot of testimonial that you can check. So that takes care of the reason why I, one of the reasons why the her story doesn't hold water. The second reason why, so by the way, when I say that, my mum turned 80th that actual weekend with her birthdays on March the 11th and the reason why I went to London and I presume, but I guess I don't remember, is why when we were, so the whole trip started because of Alberto Pinto who was the decorator for the island and for New York as well. And he had wanted Epstein to go to see a house in Marrakesh, I remember rightly and went via the Alhambra. It was also for New Mexico. So there's architectural pieces that, and that was the basis of that trip. And I suspect now that that trip was planned all around the fact that I had to be in, wanted to be in London, no matter what, for my mum's 80th birthday. But my brother's house in the country, which is approximately an hour, that's happened, an hour and a half, an hour and a half outside of London. And my brother's having it. And we all congregated on the Saturday for her birthday celebration on the Sunday, and then we left. So that's that. The second reason why, probably maybe even the more important reason than my mum's birthday that I think it's absolute rubbish, is that Prince Andrew, the idea of him doing anything of that nature in my house that's the size of this room, is so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me is the man or what I just can't, I can't even... Is there any way that it could have happened? No. The physical one. Oh, the physical one. The, my house with tiny, I think it's 900 square feet in total. Maybe that, is that right? Maybe. Maybe not. It is on three floors, however. Sorry, we're talking about a little, it's a jewel. It used to be a stable for a horse. It was the stable for the big houses. It was the, it was the little poor man's home behind the rich man's home. It's a jewel, it's a, was a gorgeous little place, but it is a sight of a nut. If you make a noise, let's say, to the little burp or something, you'd hear it. It just, where she says that they had relations in a bathroom, I, the festival, the bath is an old Victorian bath. I, I, I'm quite, quite small. It tight for me. I put my brother in there to see what would happen. It looks like a blivit, which is a sausage and a layer very tight skin. So her, her description of whatever the two people were doing in the tub, that would work. The bathroom itself is so small you can't lie flat on the floor. So it couldn't happen on the floor because you physically, physically can't, this bathroom is too small to even be on the floor. And then the kicker of all kickers is that because the bathroom was so small, I decorated it to try and make it look huge, which meant that I put mirrors the whole way around it. And what was so fun about being in there is that if you stood in the bathroom, you saw like a hundred of you. Like you do if you were in a firehouse. Yeah, well, Alice in Wonderland, or one of those things that you would see yourself going stretching everything. And it's the image if you said you were, let's say you were, let's say the... ...telling the truth. She could say she was having sex with 5,000 generations of the royal family because that's how far back you could see yourself. There is no way in good, green earth is that her taken place that this is something that you would miss. Because it's, you can miss it. If you were staying in there, you'd see the whole of the FBI is a little bit of a whole of the Department of Justice standing behind you. It's like no. Did you also explain where the tap was in the bathtub? Well, it's an over-dubbed... ...and a tap. So if you were in... Come on, if you were in the tub, this is the tub. My tap would be here. No. So you think it's kind of logistically and physically not something that could have... Well, there's that. And there's just Andrew. He's so... English. He's so... ...he has a higher title. You think there's any way you could have happened or no? Absolutely. No way, no how. Absolutely. Wait, I haven't finished. So, okay. Oh, sorry. Go, go, go. Finish. Please, go ahead. Sorry. Can I finish? When all this nonsense took place where this whole story with the picture and with this and with that... ...I believe that this whole thing was many times... ...and I can point you to some potentially corroborating evidence of this. So when she gave the photograph to the FBI in Australia... ...just to be good, the photo-granic tabloid, I'm with the famous one. I have an image of it. I'm a senior in the background. The fake. It's just to be here. So, on the back of that... ...and this is in the discovery, by the way. I don't know if it's in... ...I don't know which discovery I saw it in now, but this is it. She wrote, she wrote in the back that it was a picture that was taken in January of 2000. And in 2000 or 2001, I don't remember. So now, in her handwriting that she's giving the FBI this picture. Suddenly now it's March. So how do you go from her writing its January to March? It's because it only is the only one that fit with the flight locks... ...that when she could be in London and this to please. The second thing is that... ...I'm so excited to tell you this. There is a journalist. I know you guys quite often. The fake news is at work here. So there's a journalist called Sharon Churcha. There is... ...a lawyer called Bread Edwards. These two, and there is a sudden district of Florida prosecutor called Villafana. I would very much look forward to showing you the relationship between these three parties that created that. Why? Well, without pretty said the relationship, why do you think they created that story? I believe that story was created for the purposes of... ...well, the remultiple. The first one is financial. The second one is for the purposes of the CVRA case. The third one was for the serialization both of her book and in the papers for the story to attack the family. And just as a... So I think when you were just asked about the photo, you said you actually thought the photo was fake. Do you think it was just mistated or do you think it's a literally a fake photo? I believe it's literally a fake photo. Why do you think that? Well, first of all, I don't remember it. But the outfit I'm wearing is the outfit from my mum's birthday party. But you don't have any... Do you dispute that they met each other? Do you know whether they met each other? I do not know that they met. So you think the photograph is fake, but you also are not even posse as they actually ever met each other. I know. So you don't have a specific recollection of being at an event or a party or your apartment, or your flat munden with Prince Andrew and... I see. She doesn't know one way or the other. The reason why I'm not... I don't have any memory of that. So that's not the issue. The issue is, could Andrew who've come to the house to see me or see Epstein and say hi and she had been there? Yes, I can't say that that would happen. But what I can absolutely categorically say is that I never... At any time said Andrew up to have relations with her or any other human being ever. And I can categorically state that her characterization of whatever may or may not have happened could physically just know. And plus I was in the country, so all of that's just not conceivable. Did you attend... Did you attend social parties over... And again, I really now am focused on 2000 plus, so not the earlier. Where Mr. Epstein would host the party or be a big part of the hosting of the party. And some of... or many of the young women who are masseuses would be invited to the party as guests or as entertainment. I certainly went to his house when he would have people who would be there that were... I would... the way I would think of it and I would characterize it with his entourage. That's how I thought about it. And that's certain within the later 2000's, yes. Did you attend any weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein? Again, I'm mostly focused on plus, plus, post 2000, but if there's something that comes in mind within the 90's, that's fine as well. Are wedding? Weddings. With Epstein? I don't think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein. But I can't think of a wedding that I ever went to with him. Do you know... You don't remember... you didn't attend President Clinton's daughter's wedding? I did. Chelsea Clinton's. But that wasn't with Mr. Epstein. No, it was with Ted Wey. My boyfriend. Ted again? With Ted Wey, my boyfriend. Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein was at that wedding? He was not. And how did you... did you have a relationship? Well, why did you get invited that way? Because Ted and Clinton were very close. And how were you close to them? Like, what was the reason you were close to them? I met President Clinton. Well, first of all, I went to the White House with Epstein once. For, I think it was for a historical... Like one of those benefits. And I met the President then, but like, sounds another people shook his hand. Then after that, I had a very good friend of mine that was the... But known to be the mayor of Miami Beach, Phillip Levine. And Phillip and the President were very good friends. And Phillip was a very... and I were very good friends. And so I actually was introduced to the President post his... Coming out of the White House and became friendly with him because of Phillip Levine. Because of what? Phillip Levine. There's some names that have been publicly associated with Mr. Epstein. That I just want to ask you if you know about. Pears Morgan. Is friendly with him? With Mr. Epstein. I have no idea. Never. Yeah, there's no trick question. I'm not suggesting that I know the answer to it. I'm just asking. Well, I would be astonished. I can't imagine they'd have anything in common either. How about... What about friends with Pears Morgan? I've met him. I've met him. I met him at an event in Manhattan. I can't remember what... More recently, so probably in 2012, something in that. And we had a very nice conversation. So I remember that. I remember thinking... I don't remember if I'd ever met him before but I remember thinking how nice he was and how surprised. So I liked him. What can I tell you? That's the only memory you have of that. I'm not sure if that's correct but that's what I think. I don't have a correct right? No, I just don't know. I just want to try and... I don't want you to believe me. Because I mean this. There is so much information in the public sphere. So easy. You and Mr. Epstein and others around. And some of it is definitely true and some of it is definitely false. Okay, I can ask a question. I mean, if I think that you're not being honest or that you're missing something, it's isn't got you. I'll say that to you. Did you ever meet JFK Jr.? I'm sorry. Did you ever meet JFK Jr.? Yes. What was up? I met him at... I had to quit my sweating. No. Carried, carried, carried sweating. Carried sweating for the carry-mary. I had to quit my sweat. Yes. Sorry. I had to quit my sweat in. When would that have been approximately? 1990. Before? 1999. I don't... Something like that. But would that have been before you would have been strapped in? Yes. Did you ever... Any sort of professional or social relationship with JFK Jr.? I can't sit down. You what? I thought he was very attractive. Oh, you fancy. Sorry. I was actually finding him attractive and fencing him. Did you have any sort of social relationship with him? I mean, we knew each other. I thought he was wonderful and fun. And I enjoyed meeting him. But I went out. I wanted to say we had a dinner or two. But I was very excited. But that was it. And then Alan Dorschowitz? I... What's the question with Alan? Do you... Say it again? What's the question? Do you know Dorschowitz? Do you know whether he knew Mr. Epstein? Do you know the nature of their relationship? I definitely do know Alan. I want... I'm just trying to remember if I knew him... I... I'm trying to remember how I met him and I met him separately from him. I don't remember. So that I have no recollection. I... Remember... I know that he was Epstein's lawyer. I don't know if they had any relationship prior to that. I don't remember. Oh, I do, actually. So I think they met the same master's vignettes who, Lin Forreston, I think that's what happened. I think that's it. And why do you think that? Just put to my head. Okay. And did you... You said that Mr. Dorschowitz was Mr. Epstein's attorney. Do you know whether they also socialized? So my personal memory, when I remember two, I have two distinct memories with Alan. One is with him and his wife at the island. And I actually remember that. And I remember, I think going to his house in Boston, if he had a house in Boston, that's... There's 82 times I remember. Did you ever observe Mr. Dorschowitz doing anything inappropriate with... Young women around Mr. Epstein? No. Did you ever hear anybody... Didn't they ever tell you that he had done anything inappropriate? Absolutely. Did you ever... Did you know one way or the other, whether Mr. Dorschowitz ever got a massage at the island or any locations that... He was at with Mr. Epstein? I don't remember anything about him ever getting a massage. I don't have any record. I don't believe I ever even swim in a bathroom. I have no knowledge of that. I'm jumping around a little bit. Do you have to mention, I think, briefly, the Terramar project? Yes. What is that? I found a Terramar in... The idea of Terramar came, I think, in 2010. So I wanted to just expand Terramar a little bit. Ted and I... bought a lot of Ted, bought a lot of those. And the basis of the boat was to do explorations and see exploratory stuff. This really started because I have and have had since I was a child a love of the ocean and everything aquatic. And I've always been... I'm nervous about the state of the ocean. When Ted and I worked with National Geographic and we did exploratory work and the most exciting... We did many exciting things, but one of the most fabulous ones that we did was we looked for a media air heart twice. We added two expeditions to look for a media air heart as an example of an exploration that we did. And he had a foundation for the ocean and we worked with Nat Geo, we worked with Woods Hole. We did amazing things. We bought the remus 6000 so when the plane went missing the plane that went... Because at their France, from Brazil to Paris, that went down, it was the remus 6000 that found that plane. This is one of those deep sea undisputed. Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, I just... One of the things I did not want to give up was the... My love of the ocean and everything that we did in the Terramar. The genesis of Terramar came from that. Terramar obviously means land sea. And the story of the ocean is that Earth really shouldn't be called Earth, it should be called ocean because three quarters is the ocean. And so I wanted to not clash with anything to do with Ted because it was a bit awkward between us. And so he took all the part of the ocean that was close to land, so within 200 miles. And so I'd say that I would focus on all the part of the ocean that was outside of National borders, Terramar. And that's how that's the genesis of Terramar. So what was the time period of that? I think after I broke up with Ted, so 2010-11, is when it started and then I ran it all the way up until whenever the Epstein drama struck. And then I just shut it down. I shut it down because I didn't want what was happening to hurt any... The Smithsonian or that geo or the... I just couldn't let everything be hurt by what was happening to me. Do you know Jean-Luc Brinnell? Yes. How do you know me? I met him so when I told you I was working for the European for my dad and I was in charge... To back in like 90, early 90s. Yeah. And I was running a magazine. One of the things in the magazine is fashion. And so I was going to some fashion shows and I was looking for fashion sponsorship. And in fact when I came to America, one of the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron Pellman, who was great. And I met Jean-Luc through just in Paris like that. But socially, not... Mr. Epstein, know him as well. Did you later learn what they knew each other? I'm not sure. He would have Epstein had his own fashion situation. So he would have... He didn't meet Jean-Luc through me. Did you ever observe them together over the years? Absolutely. Yeah, I saw them many times together. Did he visit the island that he'd go to Palm Beach? Yes, he went everywhere. I saw him in every place. Did you ever observe him getting a massage? Or do you ever know what they got on the massage? Maybe you didn't observe it personally. You don't remember? I don't. I mean, I have no conscience memory of Jean-Luc. I would imagine that he did, but I never. How about Mr. Weinstein? What would you like to know? Do you know him? Yes. I'm how do you know him? I guess, let's say how do you know him. Is it a relationship you had separate from Mr. Epstein? Or did you meet him through Mr. Epstein? I wouldn't say I had any type of relationship with Harvey Weinstein in any context. Socially, I would meet him because I would go to events that Harvey would be at. And also his wife was English, like Ben Georgina. And I was very friendly. And also we'd be a big world, more than waiting. So we would see each other and I would go to Miramax events. There was a couple of people who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with. His primary producer, his name is Merrill Poster. I was friendly with. Yeah. Do you know whether Mr. Epstein had his own relationship with Mr. Weinstein? He did. Did they socialize together at the island or in Palm Beach or in the beach? I never saw Harvey at any of Epstein's houses. So socialize, I don't know that they were friends. I mean, I can't see them together either. I mean, literally. But I know that they certainly do that. I would imagine, and in fact I think I have a memory, but I can't. When Harvey was trying to raise money for whatever his business called, I can't remember what his business was called. Maybe he went there because Epstein was good at raising money. I just don't know. But I never saw them. I don't recall seeing Harvey in any of the properties. Let's go a few more minutes and take a break. And that's after lunch. So do you, we talked several hours ago about your father and his business a little bit. After your father passed, do you know whether Mr. Epstein was involved in your family business? That you know what? Absolutely not. In any respect, first of all, there was no family business left. It started with that problem. And the second one is, my family didn't like him very much. And they were busy dealing with their own problems. And there was no relationship whatsoever. My mom and he got along quite well. That was it. But that was so lady. He was nice to her. We're now being a little repetitive. But you're confident that before you met Mr. Epstein, he didn't know your father. And so there's no, he wouldn't have done business with your father's companies in the 80s either. Absolutely not. I'm 100% sure of that. I never met him. I never saw him. I never heard his name. No, nothing. So there's been a lot of conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained like a list of people, like a book of famous people that he knew, like a, it's called a black book or a client list or a list. Did you know of the existence of any such list? There is no list. We'll start with that. The genesis of that story I can actually trace for you from its absolute inception, if that is what you're interested in. First, you know, to be sure there is no list, there's no client list, nothing like that. No, there's nothing like that. You know. That obviously. Okay, so you say you think you know that genesis, go ahead, tell us. I'd like you to know that I have brought some supporting collaborative evidence. We'll tell you what it is to you that I'm going to get the cooperation. Do you want to think of break here because it's a long story? Yeah, this is the only sick of break. Yeah, sick of break. All right, the time is 203 and we're going to take a break right now.