LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 you wanted - I know that they've got to go, so 2 is there anything else you wanted to ask -- 3 : No, no, we're fine. 4 MR. : -- with the counsel? 5 : I can do it right here. 6 MR. : Oh, okay. But you've 7 never seen, "+ 1." You believe that that was 8 more than likely added on the 10:00 p.m. count 9 after the count slips were returned? 10 MR. : Yes, because normally, see 11 how you see all the checkmarks? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Cross offs? So when you get 14 the count slip, R&A, Control #2 does the 15 checkmarks to make sure, "Okay, right unit, 16 right number, right date, everything is 17 signed." If something is written on it, 18 normally you'd be like, "I'm not taking this," 19 because it could become official document. 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : You know? The back, 22 sometimes people write on the back, you know, 23 math to try to figure out exactly what their 24 numbers are, but on the front, normally you're 25 not writing nothing on the front because you EFTA00111769

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 know it's an official document, you know -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. they could pull it at any 4 time, as you can see. So, I'm surprised to see 5 that there's something written on the front, I 6 don't know. 7 MR. : But you do not recall 8 actually being involved in the midnight count 9 on August 9th going into August 10th? 10 : He left. 11 MR. : He left. 12 MR. : I was (Indiscernible 13 *01:14:07). 14 : He was the 4:00. 15 MR. : All right. So -- 16 : He was the 4:00. 17 MR. : -- do you know who would 18 have collected these count slips at midnight? 19 MR. : Well, besides Internal, 20 midnight sometimes they count whoever they 21 relieved and the relief brings it down. 22 MR. : All right. So the reason 23 I ask, because you see how ZA, the count slip 24 says 73? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111770

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 MR. : Do you see here where ZA 2 says 72? 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : Do you know how that 5 could have happened? 6 MR. : I know I wasn't there, so -. 7 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 8 no. That's where I wanted -. 9 MR. : You know, that's - I'm no- 10 messing with no numbers, but, yeah, I don't 11 know how that - yeah. 12 MR. : You don't know how that - 13 have you ever seen that happen before? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Not where SENTRY says one 17 thing and - now, do people mess up and write 18 the wrong number? Yeah. But, C&A is supposed 19 to say, "Send this back, you know, that's a bad 20 count what you wrote on your slip, that's what 21 you called in." 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Because, see the X, you do 24 one line when they call it in. So you call me 25 in, you call in, "ZA 72," one line, good count, EFTA00111771

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 send paperwork. When I get the paperwork, see 2 how you're checking? "73, negative, send that 3 back, that's not what you called in." 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. "Okay, what did I call in?" 6 That's - then count again. "I'm not going to 7 tell you what you called in. 8 : Do you want to pause? 9 MR. : I think we can be done. 10 But, yeah, we can pause. Let me - I'm just 11 going to pause the recording real quick. Get 12 that. This is Special Agent 13 and it is currently 12:31 p.m. We are pausing 14 the recording. 15 MR. : It is currently 12:42 16 p.m. on July 15, 2021 and we are reconvening. 17 And sir, I'll just remind you that it's a 18 voluntary interview and you are under oath. 19 All right, , you had a few follow ups 20 that you wanted to do on that. 21 MR. : All right. 22 : So you mentioned earlier that 23 when the Control officer checks off the count 24 slips -- 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00111772

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 : -- they mark it? 2 MR. : Yeah, so, on the paper here 3 first, right? This is a must. This -. 4 : That would be the E-1 5 document, right? 6 MR. : Yes. What happens is you do 7 one line in the X when they call you and it's 8 right, you make the line, you hang up. When 9 you get the paperwork and check it and it 10 matches what they called in, you do the second 11 line. So this is a must. This, I don't know 12 if there's a rule about it, but I know since 13 I've worked that post, you know, I was always 14 taught that that's how you do it, make sure 15 unit is correct because sometimes people - if 16 you work overtime on one unit, then all of a 17 sudden you go to another, you might forget and 18 put that unit's number on it. So, the units 19 are right, the dates are right time, number, 20 you got two signatures, we're good. 21 MR. : So what you're referring 22 to right now is the count slips 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : -- and as you go through 25 each, basically line item on the count slips, EFTA00111773

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 you -- 2 MR. : Just to verify. 3 MR. : -- mark them off -- 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : -- just so you can keep 6 track of what it is they did, correct? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : All right. 9 : Now, we're looking at the -. 10 MR. : That everything adds up, you 11 know. 12 : We're looking at the August 13 9, 10:00 p.m. count. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 : Right? Does - it shows that 16 there's lines across almost ever count slip 17 except for R&D -- 18 MR. : Uh-huh. 19 -- and ZA. What does that 20 tell you? 21 MR. : Truthfully, I would not know 22 why all of them were checked off except those 23 two because even if there was a mistake on it 24 and it had to be re-ran, you still check after 25 it's re-ran, so I don't know why it would be, EFTA00111774

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you know, those would be the only two not 2 checked. 3 : And you mentioned that it 4 looks like the handwriting on both of those -. 5 MR. : The added number on the 6 front, the + 1 on it -. 7 : Is the same? 8 MR. : It looks it because it 9 doesn't look like the handwriting on either one 10 of them -- 11 MR. : Right, so for -- 12 MR. : -- of the people that -. 13 MR. : -- the R&D where it says 14 - looks like, "9S + 1," and then the ZA where 15 it says, "73 + 1." 16 MR. : Yeah. In my opinion, it 17 doesn't look like the people that filled out 18 the count slips handwriting. 19 MR. : Sure. And then who was 20 the one that actually checks this off? Is that 21 the Internal or is that Control? 22 MR. : No, that's Control #2 which 23 is called C&A, Counts and Assignments. 24 MR. : And they would be the one 25 to, as they're going through it, to actually EFTA00111775

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 mark off the count slips? 2 MR. : Yeah, because they handling 3 the E-1 and they're doing the good verbal and 4 the count. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 : According to the roster, who 7 would that C&A be for the 10:00 p.m. count? 8 MR. : On the 9th? 9 : On the 9th. 10 MR. : On the 9th, 10:00 p.m., it 11 would be 12 : And who would it have been 13 for the midnight count? 14 MR. : That would be the 10th then, 15 right? 16 : Yeah, 10th, midnight. 17 MR. : 10th, midnight? All righ-, 18 so the 10th, midnight, it could have been 19 , but also, sometimes the Lieutenant 20 takes it at midnight. 21 : Okay. And if a Lieutenant 22 does the count, do they - are they supposed to 23 do the same thing? Check it off, each line? 24 MR. : I mean, on the E-1, yes. 25 This, like I said, I don't know if there's a EFTA00111776

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 rule for this, it's just the way I was taught 2 and a lot of senior officers do it. So, I 3 don't know, you know, a lot of Lieutenants come 4 from other institutions, they were taught 5 different. So it's not odd if the Lieutenant 6 that took the count didn't do it, but most of 7 the time they would and -. 8 MR. : And as far - you said 9 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- but did finish 12 at 10:00 p.m.? 13 MR. : Yeah, so that's why - yeah, 14 but -. 15 MR. : Or so would that be 16 (Phonetic Sp. *01:19:29)? Which one would 17 actually -- 18 MR. : Oh, yeah, so, yeah, possibly 19 did it because, yeah, you're right, 20 finished at 10:00 so Control takes 21 over, yeah, so it would be most likely. 22 MR. : So would have done 23 also the midnight or would he also have been 24 relieved early and then the next person would 25 have done it? EFTA00111777

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. : No, so midnight would either 2 be his relief, unless he didn't get relieved, 3 which on here it shows someone else took over. 4 So it would be his relief or, like I said, the 5 Ops Lieutenant usually takes the midnight count 6 if they're able to. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 : That's all I got. 9 (Indiscernible *01:20:00). 10 MR. : No, I guess just the main 11 thing would be, you've never seen a + one on 12 count slips before? 13 MR. : Handed in, no. 14 MR. : Yeah, but what about 15 MR. : Now, if -- 16 MR. : -- after the fact? Does 17 18 MR. : -- if after the fact, I 19 don't see it, so, it's possible once I hand it 20 to Control, you know, I never see the count 21 slip again. So maybe that's normal for someone 22 in Control that works Control. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : But me picking it up, no, 25 I've never seen it actually picking up with a EFTA00111778

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 number on the front like that. 2 MR. : All right, so, would it 3 be your educated guess then, and it is a guess, 4 that the 10:00 p.m. count were these two, the 5 ZA and the R&D, would your guess be that that 6 was done by somebody other than the unit 7 themselves? 8 MR. : I would assume -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : -- it would be a guess like 11 you said, but -. 12 MR. : Somebody in Control more 13 than likely or who was doing the count? 14 MR. : Whoever was taking the count 15 or whatnot, you know, whoever was in the 16 Control Center, somehow that I would assume 17 that that's where it came from. 18 MR. : And again, this would be 19 an interpretation, but do you have an educated 20 interpretation what this 9S + 1 and the 73 + 1 21 would mean? 22 MR. : No. Because if I had to 23 guess, if you were saying that the 73 was wrong 24 and it was supposed to be 74, you would just 25 fill out a new count slip and put 74. You're EFTA00111779

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 not going to put a + 1 on there so I don't 2 understand why there would be a + 1 there. It 3 doesn't make no sense to me. 4 MR. : And did you ever hear of 5 ghost counting? 6 MR. : Yes, I've heard of ghost 7 counting. But even if you ghost count, you 8 would not put + 1 on there. The count slip 9 would reflect, you know? 10 MR. : Okay. Now, do you know 11 anything about if - so, for instance, if the 12 4:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. numbers are - they 13 match up on the count slips as well as on the 14 E-1, however they're actually wrong, both of 15 them, do the people that in, for instance, the 16 SHU, have access to the number that Control is 17 looking for? 18 : Say that again. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So for education 21 purposes, this is - the number that is on this 22 which says, "Census column," -- 23 MR. : Yes. That's the active 24 number. 25 MR. : -- or the count actually EFTA00111780

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : -- is the amount of 4 people that per Control are supposed to be in 5 that unit. So, if the number that is supposed 6 to be in the unit matches up with the count 7 slip that is provided -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : -- but they're both 10 wrong, my question is, let's assume that that 11 is the case. 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : My question is, the 14 people in the SHU, do they have access to the 15 number that they're supposed to provide? 16 MR. : So wait, you're saying like 17 18 MR. : So the SHU has to give an 19 account slip and then the people in Control 20 need to say, "Yep, that's the number we've 21 got." 22 MR. : Yes. First you got to cal_ 23 it in and they got to clear it before you even 24 write your paper, your count slip. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111781

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 MR. : That's why it's called -- 2 MR. : So I guess there will be 3 4 MR. : -- the (Indiscernible 5 *01:22:56). 6 MR. : -- two follow up question 7 to that then now. So if they're writing down a 8 number that they think Control has, do they 9 have way to know the number that Control has? 10 : Beforehand. 11 MR. : Oh, okay, I get what you're 12 saying. Like access to what Control is looking 13 at. 14 MR. : Correct. What number 15 they're -- 16 MR. : So --- 17 MR. : -- suppose to report. 18 MR. : -- yes and no. The reason 19 why I say that is, not everybody has access to 20 that. But, let's say I work that post three 21 days a week and two days a week I work 22 somewhere else. I have access to it because 23 I'm there three days a week. 24 MR. : So if you're working in 25 Control, if you go to SHU, you'd actually still EFTA00111782

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 have access 2 MR. : Exactly. 3 MR. : -- to that. 4 MR. : So you still have access to 5 it. So it's possible that someone had access 6 because they don't just take it immediately, 7 your access, you know, if you're there three 8 days a week, you're going to have it. So, it's 9 possible, yes, but as far as knowing if they 10 did, I don't know. I don't know who has 11 access, who doesn't. Like I had access for a 12 long time, then they took it because I stopped 13 working here for a while, so I don't know who 14 has it and who doesn't. I don't even know who 15 takes it and gives it, to be honest. 16 MR. : And have you ever 17 experience anything where the person calling in 18 the number actually says, "Hey, what number am 19 I supposed to have?" 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : So that never would 22 happen? 23 MR. : I mean, not that it would 24 never but it's never happened in my interaction 25 of working that post and calling in a count. EFTA00111783

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 : Because that would put you 2 on the line because there's something missing. 3 MR. : Exactly. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : And also -. 6 MR. : So would those calls be 7 recorded, what they're calling into Control? 8 MR. : I would assume. It's the 9 government. I'm assuming all the -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. calls, you know. 12 MR. : Do you know how long 13 those calls would be monitored? I mean would 14 be retained? 15 MR. : I have no idea. That, you 16 know, that's not something I would know. But, 17 I would assume you could get access to phone 18 calls if you had to. 19 MR. : Okay. So not only from 20 inmates, but also between officers. 21 MR. : I'd better check on it. 22 MR. : Right. Okay. So do you 23 think the more likely scenario though, if those 24 numbers are in fact wrong on both the count 25 slip as well as with Control, that the people EFTA00111784

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 would have had access to the Control number to 2 be able to write in that, the number that they 3 were looking for? 4 MR. : I mean, it's possible 5 because you brought up a ghost count. Ghost 6 count does happen, but, this reflects it. You 7 know what I'm saying? 8 MR. : Uh-huh. 9 : Why don't you explain ghost 10 count to make sure you're both understanding 11 what a -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : What is the 14 ghost count is. 15 MR. : What is a ghost - what is 16 a ghost count? 17 MR. : So, what a ghost count would 18 be, let's say - I'm trying to think of a 19 scenario where it would - okay, it's count is 20 on. I'm counting, all of a sudden, you're 21 throwing up crazy, like ridiculously and 22 there's blood in the throw up and everything. 23 So I call for Medical. Medical is like, "Bring 24 him to me, you know, bring him to Medical." I 25 bring him to Medical. We're not going to EFTA00111785

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 change the count for your unit, we know where 2 he's at. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : We visually see him in 5 Medical, we know he's in Medical. So, although 6 you may only have 72 people on your unit now 7 because on is in Medical, we may say, "ghost 8 count, we know where he's out, we got a visual, 9 just keep his as 73 on your unit," instead of 10 doing a whole new SENTRY, that he's in Medical 11 and we're going to send him right back. 12 MR. : So for the 4:00 p.m. 13 count, if Fernandez is moved at 3:15 to R&D dry 14 cell, would that be a reason to do a ghost 15 count at 4:00 p.m.? 16 MR. : In my opinion, yes and no. 17 I say yes because, yeah, it's possible. No, 18 because the log is updated. So if you had time 19 to update the log and put him in -. 20 MR. : What if the log is not 21 updated at that time? What if he's not 22 MR. : That's different. 23 MR. : -- keyed out of the unit 24 until -- 25 MR. : Okay, that's a different EFTA00111786

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 scenario 2 MR. : -- much later? 3 MR. : So if the log was updated at 4 that time, you have time to do all the rest of 5 the stuff. If it wasn't, then yeah, it's 6 possible he was ghost counted, because, like I 7 said, as long as you've got a visual on him and 8 you know where he's at and it happened around 9 count time, it's possible. But 3:15 is still 10 pretty early, so. 11 MR. : So if 3:15 Fernandez is 12 moved out of the SHU, obviously, like you said, 13 the outer door has to be -- 14 MR. : Control has to do it. 15 MR. : -- Control has to pop it 16 so they obviously would have to be notified, 17 correct? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : That Fernandez is being 20 moved -- 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : -- to a dry cell. Who 23 would be responsible for keying Fernandez out 24 of the SHU and placing him in a different unit? 25 MR. : That would be Control #2, EFTA00111787

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 C&A. 2 MR. : So Control would be not 3 the SHU staff? 4 MR. : SHU, if they have access, 5 can do it. But as far as SENTRY paperwork, 6 that's the Control Center. 7 MR. : So Control should have 8 been the one that did that? 9 MR. : Yeah, the Counts and 10 Assignment Officer, which is C&A Control #2 in 11 the Control Center, they're the ones that would 12 do the SENTRY paperwork for hat. 13 MR. : And would they know if 14 they say, moving Fernandez to R&D dry cell, 15 would they know automatically, "I need to key 16 him out," or would that be something that SHU 17 would also say, "Can you key in the -." 18 MR. : It depends who's working the 19 SHU and what they have access to. You know, I 20 had senior officers that, like I said, have 21 access to it and they'll tell Control, "I got 22 it. Don't worry about it, I know you're busy, 23 you're doing everything else, I got it." But 24 if you have someone working the SHU, which is 25 very possible because of all the overtime, who EFTA00111788

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 doesn't have access or doesn't know how to do 2 it, they're not doing it, Control has to -. 3 MR. : But would that be a 4 conversation they would have about 5 MR. : Yes. I -. 6 MR. : -- who was actually going 7 to key him out? 8 MR. : Exactly. That's the 9 conversation they're having. 10 MR. : And so there's not an 11 automatic control being like, "We'll do it." 12 It's actually a conversation they should have. 13 MR. : Well, regardless, a 14 conversation they're going to have because 15 Control looks on camera, pops the door, they 16 don't know that inmate, what numbers he is, 17 where - you know, so they would have to SHU and 18 say, "Inmate so and so, what's his reg number? 19 What's his ID number so I can do all the 20 paperwork for it?" You know, you can't just 21 assume by looking at the camera, you know, the 22 cameras is - I don't know about now, but they 23 used to not be that clear where you could tell 24 exactly what inmate, you know. 25 MR. : Would that be done over EFTA00111789

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 the radio that this conversation would have or 2 it would done on the phone? 3 MR. : On the phone most likely. 4 MR. : Over the phone? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : You're not going to say all 8 that information over the radio. You may say, 9 "SHU, when you get a chance, call me at C&A." 10 MR. : But would you say on the 11 radio, "Moving this guy to dry cell," or would 12 you say, "Control we need -" - you know, when 13 they're looking to actually - the SHU is 14 looking to actually move this guy down to dry - 15 first of all, SHU would do it, right? Not 16 Internal? 17 MR. : Well, it all depends what's 18 going on but Internal could help with the move. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : But the Lieutenant would be 21 advised first. We can't just put someone on 22 dry cell. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : So what would happen is a 25 situation had to happen. For you to go on - EFTA00111790

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 you know what dry cell is or no? 2 : Explain it -- 3 MR. : Explain it, go ahead. 4 to them because I think 5 that there might be a disconnect -- 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 : -- in terms of 8 MR. : Dry cell -. 9 : -- what they understand. 10 MR. : Dry cell is an inmate 11 possibly swallowed drugs or something, we don't 12 know what it is. So he swallowed it, so we put 13 him on dry cell, which means he has to use the 14 bathroom three times and a supervisor has to go 15 through it to see if there's drugs in there 16 before he can get cleared coming off dry cell. 17 And he has to be visually watched. So what 18 happens is, if someone goes on dry cell, the 19 Lieutenant is advised immediately because 20 either you're in a tussle with the inmate where 21 he tried to put the drugs in his mouth or 22 you're seeing him through a cell and you're 23 like, "LT, I got one, he just swallowed drugs," 24 or, "I need you to respond." Then the 25 Lieutenant makes the decision to put him on dry EFTA00111791

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 cell. I'm not just putting someone randomly on 2 dry cell. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : So, the Control may know 5 over the radio or may not because if all I say 6 is, "I need a Lieutenant in Special Housing and 7 a Lieutenant come up and I'm verbal and 8 everything to him and I'm not saying it over 9 the radio and the Lieutenant is like, "All 10 right, put him on dry cell, come on," you know, 11 "Strip him out and everything." Control don't 12 know what's going on, they just know I asked 13 for a Lieutenant. You know what I'm saying? 14 MR. : So my questions is 15 though, when they're actually making the move 16 down to dry cell, is that on the radio, 17 "Control, can you pop the door? We're moving 18 him to dry cell," or is that always a phone 19 call? 20 MR. : Like I said, obviously 21 Control has to know to pop the door, but you 22 might not be telling them everything over the 23 radio. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : You might just say - there's EFTA00111792

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 a bell on the outside of the door, so the 2 Lieutenant rings the bell, "Control, I need the 3 27 door popped for Lieutenant ." 4 They're going to pop it because they look on 5 camera, the Lieutenant is there. Now once he's 6 inside, the door is locked, "Control, we need 7 27 popped, exiting with one." Now we're 8 exiting. Now from there, if I'm in the Control 9 Center, I'm calling SHU, like, "Yo, is that 10 inmate coming back? What's going on?" So and 11 so. But everybody works different. 12 MR. : All right, so, I guess 13 this will be my last questions. 14 MR. : There's no protocol exactly 15 on how to communicate that movement because you 16 don't know if he's coming back, you don't know. 17 I'm assuming if an inmate went to R&D for dry 18 cell, they would put him on what's called the 19 X-ray machine because there's a machine in R&D 20 that reads the body, like the TSA machines. 21 Because you could do dry cell in Special 22 Housing, you don't have to move them for that. 23 If you have an empty cell, you shut the water 24 off, you put them in dry cell in Special 25 Housing with the Lieutenant. So the fact that EFTA00111793

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 they went to R&D, it was probably to do a body 2 scan to see if something was in his stomach or 3 that area. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : And if you're doing that, 6 it's possible he's going back so you're not 7 going to tell Control right away because if I 8 don't see nothing on the scan, the Lieutenant 9 may say, "I'm not putting him," you know, and 10 that's it. 11 MR. : That was going to be my 12 question, although I thought you answered it by 13 saying there's no standard protocol, but do you 14 have like a best guess educated, you know, 15 guess on Lieutenant's log says, "Fernandez is 16 moved at 3:15 down to R&D dry cell," -- 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : -- however he's never 19 keyed out of SHU. Best guess, of when it, you 20 know, what happened basically. 21 MR. : Truthfully, no. There's no 22 way, you know, there's a million scenarios that 23 could have went down. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : You would have to literally EFTA00111794

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 talk to the Lieutenant or the Control Center to 2 figure out exactly what, you know. 3 MR. : Okay. Sounds good. 4 MR. : All right. 5 MR. : Anything else you have? 6 : No. 7 MR. : Is there anything else 8 you wanted to add regarding Epstein or I guess 9 I should just ask you the general question. Do 10 you know if anyone was attempting to harm 11 Epstein? 12 MR. : No -- 13 MR. : Do you -. 14 MR. not that I know of. 15 MR. : Do you believe that 16 Epstein took his own life? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. Anything else you 19 - oh, I know that you all said for the record, 20 you wanted to talk about something else. We'll 21 schedule that for a later date. 22 MR. : Yes, I would like that. 23 MR. : Okay. Great. All right 24 and anything before we shut off this recorder? 25 : No. EFTA00111795

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 MR. : Okay. Thank you very 2 much for your time and your and your 3 cooperation. It is currently 1:00 p.m. on July 4 15, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 5 and I'm turning off the recorder. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00111796

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Transcriber EFTA00111797