LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 MR. : But I'm not -- 2 MR. : -- sure. 3 MR. : -- a hundred percent sure to 4 be able to answer that, you know. 5 MR. : Okay. Is there anything 6 you wanted - I know that they've got to go, so 7 is there anything else you wanted to ask -- 8 MS. RICHMAN: No, no, we're fine. 9 MR. : -- with the counsel? 10 MS. RICHMAN: I can do it right here. 11 MR. : Oh, okay. But you've 12 never seen, "Dlup + 1." You believe that that 13 was more than likely added on the 10:00 p.m. 14 count after the count slips were returned? 15 MR. : Yes, because normally, see 16 how you see all the checkmarks? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Cross offs? So when you get 19 the count slip, R&A, Control #2 does the 20 checkmarks to make sure, "Okay, right unit, 21 right number, right date, everything is 22 signed." If something is written on it, 23 normally you'd be like, "I'm not taking this," 24 because it could become official document. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00111639

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 MR. : You know? The back, 2 sometimes people write on the back, you know, 3 math to try to figure out exactly what their 4 numbers are, but on the front, normally you're 5 not writing nothing on the front because you 6 know it's an official document, you know -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : -- they could pull it at any 9 time, as you can see. So, I'm surprised to see 10 that there's something written on the front, I 11 don't know. 12 MR. : But you do not recall 13 actually being involved in the midnight count 14 on August 9th going into August 10th? 15 MS. RICHMAN: He left. 16 MR. : He left. 17 MR. : I was (Indiscernible 18 *01:14:07). 19 MS. RICHMAN: He was the 4:00. 20 MR. : All right. So -- 21 MS. RICHMAN: He was the 4:00. 22 MR. : -- do you know who would 23 have collected these count slips at midnight? 24 MR. : Well, besides Internal, 25 midnight sometimes they count whoever they EFTA00111640

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 relieved and the relief brings it down. 2 MR. : All right. So the reason 3 I ask, because you see how ZA, the count slip 4 says 73? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Do you see here where ZA 7 says 72? 8 MR. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Do you know how that 10 could have happened? 11 MR. : I know I wasn't there, so 12 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 13 no. That's where I wanted -. 14 MR. : You know, that's - I'm no- 15 messing with no numbers, but, yeah, I don't 16 know how that - yeah. 17 MR. : You don't know how that - 18 have you ever seen that happen before? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Not where SENTRY says one 22 thing and - now, do people mess up and write 23 the wrong number? Yeah. But, C&A is supposed 24 to say, "Send this back, you know, that's a bad 25 count what you wrote on your slip, that's what EFTA00111641

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 you called in." 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Because, see the X, you do 4 one line when they call it in. So you call me 5 in, you call in, "ZA 72," one line, good count, 6 send paperwork. When I get the paperwork, see 7 how you're checking? "73, negative, send that 8 back, that's not what you called in." 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. "Okay, what did I call in?" 11 That's - then count again. "I'm not going to 12 tell you what you called in. 13 MS. RICHMAN: Do you want to pause? 14 MR. : I think we can be done. 15 But, yeah, we can pause. Let me - I'm just 16 going to pause the recording real quick. Ge- 17 that. This is Special Agent 18 and it is currently 12:31 p.m. We are pausing 19 the recording. 20 MR. : It is currently 12:42 21 p.m. on July 15, 2021 and we are reconvening. 22 And sir, I'll just remind you that it's a 23 voluntary interview and you are under oath. 24 All right, , you had a few follow ups 25 that you wanted to do on that. EFTA00111642

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : All right. 2 MR. : So you mentioned earlier that 3 when the Control officer checks off the count 4 slips -- 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : -- they mark it? 7 MR. : Yeah, so, on the paper here 8 first, right? This is a must. This -. 9 MR. : That would be the E-1 10 document, right? 11 MR. : Yes. What happens is you do 12 one line in the X when they call you and it's 13 right, you make the line, you hang up. When 14 you get the paperwork and check it and it 15 matches what they called in, you do the second 16 line. So this is a must. This, I don't know 17 if there's a rule about it, but I know since 18 I've worked that post, you know, I was always 19 taught that that's how you do it, make sure 20 unit is correct because sometimes people - if 21 you work overtime on one unit, then all of a 22 sudden you go to another, you might forget and 23 put that unit's number on it. So, the units 24 are right, the dates are right time, number, 25 you got two signatures, we're good. EFTA00111643

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : So what you're referring 2 to right now is the count slips 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : -- and as you go through 5 each, basically line item on the count slips, 6 you -- 7 MR. : Just to verify. 8 MR. : -- mark them off -- 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : -- just so you can keep 11 track of what it is they did, correct? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : All right. 14 MR. : Now, we're looking at the -. 15 MR. : That everything adds up, you 16 know. 17 MR. : We're looking at the August 18 9, 10:00 p.m. count. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Right? Does - it shows that 21 there's lines across almost ever count slip 22 except for R&D -- 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. -- and ZA. What does that 25 tell you? EFTA00111644

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Truthfully, I would not know why all of them were checked off except those two because even if there was a mistake on it and it had to be re-ran, you still check after it's re-ran, so I don't know why it would be, you know, those would be the only two not checked. MR. : And you mentioned that it looks like the handwriting on both of those -. MR. : The added number on the front, the plus + 1 on it -. MR. : Is the same? MR. : It looks it because it doesn't look like the handwriting on either one of them -- MR. : Right, so for -- MR. MR. of the people that -. the R&D where it says - looks like, "9S plus + 1," and then the ZA where it says, "73 plus + 1." MR. : Yeah. In my opinion, it doesn't look like the people that filled out the count slips handwriting. MR. : Sure. And then who was the one that actually checks this off? Is that EFTA00111645

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 the Internal or is that Control? 2 MR. : No, that's Control #2 which 3 is called C&A, Counts and Assignments. 4 MR. : And they would be the one 5 to, as they're going through it, to actually 6 mark off the count slips? 7 MR. : Yeah, because they handling 8 the E-1 and they're doing the good verbal and 9 the count. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : According to the roster, who 12 would that C&A be for the 10:00 p.m. count? 13 MR. : On the 9th? 14 MR. : On the 9th. 15 MR. : On the 9th, 10:00 p.m., it 16 would be 17 MR. : And who would it have been 18 for the midnight count? 19 MR. : That would be the 10th then, 20 right? 21 MR. : Yeah, 10th, midnight. 22 MR. : 10th, midnight? All right, 23 so the 10th, midnight, it could have been 24 Andrea, but also, sometimes the Lieutenant 25 takes it at midnight. EFTA00111646

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. : Okay. And if a Lieutenant 2 does the count, do they - are they supposed to 3 do the same thing? Check it off, each line? 4 MR. : I mean, on the E-1, yes. 5 This, like I said, I don't know if there's a 6 rule for this, it's just the way I was taught 7 and a lot of senior officers do it. So, I 8 don't know, you know, a lot of Lieutenants come 9 from other institutions, they were taught 10 different. So it's not odd if the Lieutenant 11 that took the count didn't do it, but most of 12 the time they would and -. 13 MR. : And as far - you said 14 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : -- but did finish 17 at 10:00 p.m.? 18 MR. : Yeah, so that's why - yeah, 19 but -. 20 MR. : Or so would that be 21 (Phonetic Sp. *01:19:29)? Which one would 22 actually -- 23 MR. : Oh, yeah, so, yeah, possibly 24 did it because, yeah, you're right, 25 finished at 10:00 so Control takes EFTA00111647

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 over, yeah, so it would be most likely. MR. : So would have done also the midnight or would he also have been relieved early and then the next person would have done it? MR. : No, so midnight would either be his relief, unless he didn't get relieved, which on here it shows someone else took over. So it would be his relief or, like I said, the Ops Lieutenant usually takes the midnight count if they're able to. MR. : Okay. MR. : That's all I got. (Indiscernible *01:20:00). MR. : No, I guess just the main thing would be, you've never seen a plus + one on count slips before? MR. : Handed in, no. MR. : Yeah, but what about -- MR. : Now, if -- MR. : -- after the fact? Does MR. -- if after the fact, I don't see it, so, it's possible once I hand it to Control, you know, I never see the count EFTA00111648

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 slip again. So maybe that's normal for someone 2 in Control that works Control. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : But me picking it up, no, 5 I've never seen it actually picking up with a 6 number on the front like that. 7 MR. : All right, so, would it 8 be your educated guess then, and it is a guess, 9 that the 10:00 p.m. count were these two, the 10 ZA and the R&D, would your guess be that that 11 was done by somebody other than the unit 12 themselves? 13 MR. : I would assume 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- it would be a guess like 16 you said, but -. 17 MR. : Somebody in Control more 18 than likely or who was doing the count? 19 MR. : Whoever was taking the count 20 or whatnot, you know, whoever was in the 21 Control Center, somehow that I would assume 22 that that's where it came from. 23 MR. : And again, this would be 24 an interpretation, but do you have an educated 25 interpretation what this 9S +plua 1 and the 733 EFTA00111649

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ±plua 1 would mean? MR. : No. Because if I had to guess, if you were saying that the 73 was wrong and it was supposed to be 74, you would just fill out a new count slip and put 74. You're not going to put a ises—+ 1 on there so I don't understand why there would be a plus + 1 there. It doesn't make no sense to me. MR. ghost counting? MR. : And did you ever hear of : Yes, I've heard of ghost counting. But even if you ghost count, you would not put plus + 1 on there. The count slip would reflect, you know? MR. : Okay. Now, do you know anything about if - so, for instance, if the 4:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. numbers are - they match up on the count slips as well as on the E-1, however they're actually wrong, both of them, do the people that in, for instance, the SHU, have access to the number that Control is looking for? MS. RICHMAN: Say that again. MR. : Yeah. MR. : So for education EFTA00111650

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 purposes, this is - the number that is on this 2 which says, "Census column," -- 3 MR. : Yes. That's the active 4 number. 5 MR. : -- or the count actually 6 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : -- is the amount of 9 people that per Control are supposed to be in 10 that unit. So, if the number that is supposed 11 to be in the unit matches up with the count 12 slip that is provided -- 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. -- but they're both 15 wrong, my question is, let's assume that that 16 is the case. 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : My question is, the 19 people in the SHU, do they have access to the 20 number that they're supposed to provide? 21 MR. : So wait, you're saying like 22 23 MR. : So the SHU has to give an 24 account slip and then the people in Control 25 need to say, "Yep, that's the number we've EFTA00111651

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 got." 2 MR. : Yes. First you got to call 3 it in and they got to clear it before you even 4 write your paper, your count slip. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : That's why it's called -- 7 MR. : So I guess there will be 8 9 MR. : -- the (Indiscernible 10 *01:22:56). 11 MR. : -- two follow up question 12 to that then now. So if they're writing down a 13 number that they think Control has, do they 14 have way to know the number that Control has? 15 MS. RICHMAN: Beforehand. 16 MR. : Oh, okay, I get what you're 17 saying. Like access to what Control is looking 18 at. 19 MR. : Correct. What number 20 they're -- 21 MR. : So --- 22 MR. : -- suppose to report. 23 MR. : -- yes and no. The reason 24 why I say that is, not everybody has access to 25 that. But, let's say I work that post three EFTA00111652

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 days a week and two days a week I work 2 somewhere else. I have access to it because 3 I'm there three days a week. 4 MR. : So if you're working in 5 Control, if you go to SHU, you'd actually still 6 have access -- 7 MR. : Exactly. 8 MR. : -- to that. 9 MR. : So you still have access to 10 it. So it's possible that someone had access 11 because they don't just take it immediately, 12 your access, you know, if you're there three 13 days a week, you're going to have it. So, it's 14 possible, yes, but as far as knowing if they 15 did, I don't know. I don't know who has 16 access, who doesn't. Like I had access for a 17 long time, then they took it because I stopped 18 working here for a while, so I don't know who 19 has it and who doesn't. I don't even know who 20 takes it and gives it, to be honest. 21 MR. : And have you ever 22 experience anything where the person calling in 23 the number actually says, "Hey, what number am 24 I supposed to have?" 25 MR. : No. EFTA00111653

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 MR. : So that never would 2 happen? 3 MR. : I mean, not that it would 4 never but it's never happened in my interaction 5 of working that post and calling in a count. 6 MS. RICHMAN: Because that would put you 7 on the line because there's something missing. 8 MR. : Exactly. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And also 11 MR. : So would those calls be 12 recorded, what they're calling into Control? 13 MR. : I would assume. It's the 14 government. I'm assuming all the -- 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : -- calls, you know. 17 MR. : Do you know how long 18 those calls would be monitored? I mean would 19 be retained? 20 MR. : I have no idea. That, you 21 know, that's not something I would know. But, 22 I would assume you could get access to phone 23 calls if you had to. 24 MR. : Okay. So not only from 25 inmates, but also between officers. EFTA00111654

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 MR. : I'd better check on it. 2 MR. : Right. Okay. So do you 3 think the more likely scenario though, if those 4 numbers are in fact wrong on both the count 5 slip as well as with Control, that the people 6 would have had access to the Control number to 7 be able to write in that, the number that they 8 were looking for? 9 MR. : I mean, it's possible 10 because you brought up a ghost count. Ghost 11 count does happen, but, this reflects it. You 12 know what I'm saying? 13 MR. : Uh-huh. 14 MS. RICHMAN: Why don't you explain ghost 15 count to make sure you're both understanding 16 what a -- 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : What is the 19 MS. RICHMAN: ghost count is. 20 MR. : What is a ghost - what is 21 a ghost count? 22 MR. : So, what a ghost count would 23 be, let's say - I'm trying to think of a 24 scenario where it would - okay, it's count is 25 on. I'm counting, all of a sudden, you're EFTA00111655

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 throwing up crazy, like ridiculously and 2 there's blood in the throw up and everything. 3 So I call for Medical. Medical is like, "Bring 4 him to me, you know, bring him to Medical." I 5 bring him to Medical. We're not going to 6 change the count for your unit, we know where 7 he's at. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : We visually see him in 10 Medical, we know he's in Medical. So, although 11 you may only have 72 people on your unit now 12 because on is in Medical, we may say, "ghost 13 count, we know where he's out, we got a visual, 14 just keep his as 73 on your unit," instead of 15 doing a whole new SENTRY, that he's in Medical 16 and we're going to send him right back. 17 MR. : So for the 4:00 p.m. 18 count, if Fernandez is moved at 3:15 to R&D dry 19 cell, would that be a reason to do a ghost 20 count at 4:00 p.m.? 21 MR. : In my opinion, yes and no. 22 I say yes because, yeah, it's possible. No, 23 because the log is updated. So if you had time 24 to update the log and put him in -. 25 MR. : What if the log is not EFTA00111656

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 updated at that time? What if he's not 2 MR. : That's different. 3 MR. : -- keyed out of the unit 4 until -- 5 MR. : Okay, that's a different 6 scenario 7 MR. : -- much later? 8 MR. : So if the log was updated at 9 that time, you have time to do all the rest of 10 the stuff. If it wasn't, then yeah, it's 11 possible he was ghost counted, because, like I 12 said, as long as you've got a visual on him and 13 you know where he's at and it happened around 14 count time, it's possible. But 3:15 is still 15 pretty early, so. 16 MR. : So if 3:15 Fernandez is 17 moved out of the SHU, obviously, like you said, 18 the outer door has to be -- 19 MR. : Control has to do it. 20 MR. : -- Control has to pop it 21 so they obviously would have to be notified, 22 correct? 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : That Fernandez is being 25 moved -- EFTA00111657

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 MR. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : -- to a dry cell. Who 3 would be responsible for keying Fernandez out 4 of the SHU and placing him in a different unit? 5 MR. : That would be Control #2, 6 C&A. 7 MR. : So Control would be not 8 the SHU staff? 9 MR. : SHU, if they have access, 10 can do it. But as far as SENTRY paperwork, 11 that's the Control Center. 12 MR. : So Control should have 13 been the one that did that? 14 MR. : Yeah, the Counts and 15 Assignment Officer, which is C&A Control #2 in 16 the Control Center, they're the ones that would 17 do the SENTRY paperwork for hat. 18 MR. : And would they know if 19 they say, moving Fernandez to R&D dry cell, 20 would they know automatically, "I need to key 21 him out," or would that be something that SHU 22 would also say, "Can you key in the -." 23 MR. : It depends who's working the 24 SHU and what they have access to. You know, I 25 had senior officers that, like I said, have EFTA00111658

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 access to it and they'll tell Control, "I got 2 it. Don't worry about it, I know you're busy, 3 you're doing everything else, I got it." But 4 if you have someone working the SHU, which is 5 very possible because of all the overtime, who 6 doesn't have access or doesn't know how to do 7 it, they're not doing it, Control has to -. 8 MR. : But would that be a 9 conversation they would have about -- 10 MR. : Yes. I -. 11 MR. : -- who was actually going 12 to key him out? 13 MR. : Exactly. That's the 14 conversation they're having. 15 MR. : And so there's not an 16 automatic control being like, "We'll do it." 17 It's actually a conversation they should have. 18 MR. : Well, regardless, a 19 conversation they're going to have because 20 Control looks on camera, pops the door, they 21 don't know that inmate, what numbers he is, 22 where - you know, so they would have to SHU and 23 say, "Inmate so and so, what's his reg number? 24 What's his ID number so I can do all the 25 paperwork for it?" You know, you can't just EFTA00111659

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 assume by looking at the camera, you know, the 2 cameras is - I don't know about now, but they 3 used to not be that clear where you could tell 4 exactly what inmate, you know. 5 MR. : Would that be done over 6 the radio that this conversation would have or 7 it would done on the phone? 8 MR. : On the phone most likely. 9 MR. : Over the phone? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : You're not going to say all 13 that information over the radio. You may say, 14 "SHU, when you get a chance, call me at C&A." 15 MR. : But would you say on the 16 radio, "Moving this guy to dry cell," or would 17 you say, "Control we need -" - you know, when 18 they're looking to actually - the SHU is 19 looking to actually move this guy down to dry - 20 first of all, SHU would do it, right? Not 21 Internal? 22 MR. : Well, it all depends what's 23 going on but Internal could help with the move. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : But the Lieutenant would be EFTA00111660

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 advised first. We can't just put someone on 2 dry cell. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : So what would happen is a 5 situation had to happen. For you to go on 6 you know what dry cell is or no? 7 MS. RICHMAN: Explain it -- 8 MR. : Explain it, go ahead. 9 MS. RICHMAN: to them because I think 10 that there might be a disconnect -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MS. RICHMAN: -- in terms of -- 13 MR. : Dry cell -. 14 MS. RICHMAN: -- what they understand. 15 MR. : Dry cell is an inmate 16 possibly swallowed drugs or something, we don't 17 know what it is. So he swallowed it, so we put 18 him on dry cell, which means he has to use the 19 bathroom three times and a supervisor has to go 20 through it to see if there's drugs in there 21 before he can get cleared coming off dry cell. 22 And he has to be visually watched. So what 23 happens is, if someone goes on dry cell, the 24 Lieutenant is advised immediately because 25 either you're in a tussle with the inmate where EFTA00111661

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 he tried to put the drugs in his mouth or 2 you're seeing him through a cell and you're 3 like, "LT, I got one, he just swallowed drugs," 4 or, "I need you to respond." Then the 5 Lieutenant makes the decision to put him on dry 6 cell. I'm not just putting someone randomly on 7 dry cell. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So, the Control may know 10 over the radio or may not because if all I say 11 is, "I need a Lieutenant in Special Housing and 12 a Lieutenant come up and I'm verbal and 13 everything to him and I'm not saying it over 14 the radio and the Lieutenant is like, "All 15 right, put him on dry cell, come on," you know, 16 "Strip him out and everything." Control don't 17 know what's going on, they just know I asked 18 for a Lieutenant. You know what I'm saying? 19 MR. : So my questions is 20 though, when they're actually making the move 21 down to dry cell, is that on the radio, 22 "Control, can you pop the door? We're moving 23 him to dry cell," or is that always a phone 24 call? 25 MR. : Like I said, obviously EFTA00111662

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 Control has to know to pop the door, but you 2 might not be telling them everything over the 3 radio. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : You might just say - there's 6 a bell on the outside of the door, so the 7 Lieutenant rings the bell, "Control, I need the 8 27 door popped for Lieutenant ." 9 They're going to pop it because they look on 10 camera, the Lieutenant is there. Now once he's 11 inside, the door is locked, "Control, we need 12 27 popped, exiting with one." Now we're 13 exiting. Now from there, if I'm in the Control 14 Center, I'm calling SHU, like, "Yo, is that 15 inmate coming back? What's going on?" So and 16 so. But everybody works different. 17 MR. : All right, so, I guess 18 this will be my last questions. 19 MR. : There's no protocol exactly 20 on how to communicate that movement because you 21 don't know if he's coming back, you don't know. 22 I'm assuming if an inmate went to R&D for dry 23 cell, they would put him on what's called the 24 X-ray machine because there's a machine in R&D 25 that reads the body, like the TSA machines. EFTA00111663

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 Because you could do dry cell in Special 2 Housing, you don't have to move them for that. 3 If you have an empty cell, you shut the water 4 off, you put them in dry cell in Special 5 Housing with the Lieutenant. So the fact that 6 they went to R&D, it was probably to do a body 7 scan to see if something was in his stomach or 8 that area. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And if you're doing that, 11 it's possible he's going back so you're not 12 going to tell Control right away because if I 13 don't see nothing on the scan, the Lieutenant 14 may say, "I'm not putting him," you know, and 15 that's it. 16 MR. : That was going to be my 17 question, although I thought you answered it by 18 saying there's no standard protocol, but do you 19 have like a best guess educated, you know, 20 guess on Lieutenant's log says, "Fernandez is 21 moved at 3:15 down to R&D dry cell," -- 22 MR. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : -- however he's never 24 keyed out of SHU. Best guess, of when it, you 25 know, what happened basically. EFTA00111664

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 MR. : Truthfully, no. There's no 2 way, you know, there's a million scenarios that 3 could have went down. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : You would have to literally 6 talk to the Lieutenant or the Control Center to 7 figure out exactly what, you know. 8 MR. : Okay. Sounds good. 9 MR. : All right. 10 MR. : Anything else you have? 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : Is there anything else 13 you wanted to add regarding Epstein or I guess 14 I should just ask you the general question. Do 15 you know if anyone was attempting to harm 16 Epstein? 17 MR. : No -- 18 MR. : Do you -. 19 MR. not that I know of. 20 MR. : Do you believe that 21 Epstein took his own life? 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. Anything else you 24 - oh, I know that you all said for the record, 25 you wanted to talk about something else. We'll EFTA00111665

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 schedule that for a later date. 2 MR. : Yes, I would like that. 3 MR. : Okay. Great. All right 4 and anything before we shut off this recorder? 5 MS. RICHMAN: No. 6 MR. : Okay. Thank you very 7 much for your time and your and your 8 cooperation. It is currently 1:00 p.m. on July 9 15, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 10 and I'm turning off the recorder. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00111666

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Transcriber EFTA00111668