LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 your pocket, well, I couldn't find it. So, 2 there was no number. But I remember, vaguely, 3 what the number started with, because I 4 actually wrote it down, and I was going to - 5 that next day - ask the captain why we don't 6 have a logbook, and here's the numbers that he 7 actually called her. So. 8 : "Inmate Epstein began talking 9 on the phone. I told the staff to end inmate 10 Epstein's call after 15 minutes. They 11 complied." Is that the memo you wrote? 12 : That is the memo I wrote. 13 : Okay. Just, anything we show 14 you, which would be, in this case, the memo, 15 just initial it, and put today's date on it. 16 Today is September 21st. Here's a pen. 17 : Mm-hmm. The time? 18 : You don't need the time. 19 Just the date and the initial. That's fine. 20 Thank you. I'm going to keep reading that. So 21 bear with me. " provided this to AW 22 , who is also new to the MCC. Captain"... 23 (Phonetic Sp. *01:17:18) had emailed 24 , but responded that he couldn't 25 talk about the situation. The only colleague EFTA00062167

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 whose phone number has is AW 2 because he had to use his personal phone to 3 email her his timeline of events, and pictures 4 of Epstein's body, prior to its transport by 5 OCME." Now, you said you - this states that 6 you used your personal phone to email pictures 7 of Epstein's body. Why did you use your 8 personal phone to take Epstein's -? 9 : For one, R&D is supposed to 10 come out there. R&D is supposed to come out 11 there and fingerprint them. They came out 12 there. They fingerprinted and that was it. 13 Okay. So, me, knowing that, of course, they 14 want to know when we're leaving, because 15 sent me out there. So, I had to 16 stay with the body until the actual coroner 17 came. The coroner came. So, what I did was, 18 yes, I took the pictures, to let her know, yes, 19 I'm leaving now, this is the time I'm leaving. 20 This is his body. 21 Where I had proof that the inmate was 22 deceased, and he wasn't walking off somewhere 23 else. Because all the speculation now and in 24 the news that he's not dead. So, I did that. 25 Boom, boom, boom. And I sent it to EFTA00062168

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 from my phone. This is, boom, boom, 2 boom. I left the hospital at this time, 3 arrived back at the institution at this time. 4 This is when they took his body and placed it 5 in here. This is a lot. This is where they 6 secured the inmate at. And then, I was able to 7 leave. 8 : Were you instructed by 9 o take pictures? 10 : I'm trying to think. It's 11 been so long. I could have. But I know I had 12 a reason why I took them. 13 : And it was practice for 14 somebody to take pictures like that? 15 : I would have did it for 16 and it didn't have to be Epstein - and this is 17 not my first time sitting on an inmate and the 18 coroner, but when we sit on an inmate, wait, we 19 have a camera from the institution. 20 : Was there a -- 21 : You see what I'm saying? 22 : -- was there a camera this 23 time? Was there a camera this time? 24 : No. 25 : Okay. EFTA00062169

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 : But it - once again - they 2 brought all the stuff there. So, R&D had a 3 camera. So, I don't know why they didn't leave 4 it with us. I was coming back to the 5 institution. Because they have a - each R&D 6 has a briefcase, and in that brief case is a 7 camera, everything that you're supposed to 8 fingerprint an inmate on, and all that stuff. 9 And they have it for a reason, for inmates that 10 die. So, they could have left that and said, 11 hey, , when you guys leave, you got to 12 bring it back anyway, I'm coming back to the 13 institution. I'm going to leave this briefcase 14 with you. I would have, then, took the 15 pictures on that. But they didn't. 16 : So, they left with the 17 camera? 18 : They left with everything. 19 : And the phone number that you 20 texted to A , was that her 21 personal or -? 22 : That (804), if I'm correct, 23 if it was (804), it should have been her BOP 24 cell number. I don't know if it was (804). 25 You have to -. Because I know I had, it was EFTA00062170

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 two numbers. But I knew I only had 2 one number, and I think, if it was (804), 3 it was a prison number. It was her BOP phone. 4 : Okay. And I'm going to keep 5 reading. 6 : So, you texted her, not 7 emailed her. Correct? 8 : No. But I did text her. 9 But the pictures went to her phone. 10 : Her phone. So, texted 11 her -- 12 : Yeah. 13 : -- not email, because 14 doesn't it say email in there? 15 : He said he emailed her his 16 timeline of events, and pictures of Epstein's 17 body, prior to its transport by OCME. 18 : Right. 19 : So, did you email it to her, 20 or -? 21 : It was email. Yeah. It was 22 text. 23 : So, you texted the pictures, 24 and emailed her -- 25 : That is correct. EFTA00062171

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 : -- the timeline of events? 2 "After sending these 3 pictures, deleted them from his phone. 4 didn't speak, text, or email with 5 anyone else except his wife, who also works at 6 the MCC, in the food services section." Did 7 you forward those pictures to anybody else? 8 : No. 9 : Did you tell anyone that you 10 had those pictures? 11 : No. 12 : Or share them anywhere? 13 : No. 14 : Okay. 15 : And you don't have them? 16 And you deleted them -- 17 : No. 18 : -- those photos. 19 : You're free to look. 20 : No, no, no. No. That's 21 fine. 22 : No, I'm just saying. 23 : Yeah. 24 : I mean, I'm not -. Listen. 25 Trust me. EFTA00062172

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 : No, no. We're just going 2 to say -- 3 : I want to get them -- 4 : -- if you have them, can 5 you send them to us? 6 : -- no. No. I am not -. 7 Listen. No. I deleted them that day. 8 : That's all I had in terms of 9 questions. Do you have anything? 10 : Yeah. So, speaking of, 11 like, pictures of the That was the 12 hospital. Correct? 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Do you know if anyone was 15 there filming at the hospital? 16 : Remember, there were so many 17 people. I can't recall because my biggest 18 thing was - with those officers - was to guard 19 that body. Now, do I believe that people was 20 there? There was people there. 21 : No, I mean, like, was 22 that, like, you know how, like, if there is a, 23 you know, some kind of a use of force that 24 you've got to use against your institution 25 film, was someone -- EFTA00062173

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No, no, no. 2 : -- (Indiscernible 3 *01:21:54). 4 : From us? 5 : Yeah, yeah. 6 : No. 7 : So, no one was 8 : No. 9 : -- filming from the BOP? 10 : No. 11 : Okay. 12 : There was people from the 13 outside, though. I know that for a fact. 14 : From where? 15 : From the outside. 16 : Outside. Okay. 17 : Yeah. 18 : Do you know if Epstein 19 was deceased prior to leaving the MCC? 20 : I wasn't there. I was the 21 duty officer. I was called by 22 And the only thing told me was, 23 hey, , you need to get here ASAP. She 24 said Epstein attempted to commit suicide. 25 was, like, okay. When I got there, he was 108 EFTA00062174

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 already at the hospital. He was deceased then. 2 So, she told me to report to the hospital, and 3 that's when I reported, and I noticed his 4 deceased body. 5 : Do you know if, is there 6 any, like, rule, or unofficial or official, 7 that inmates can't be pronounced dead at the 8 MCC, or at the BOP facility? 9 : That. There's not a policy. 10 They technically says it, but this, this rule 11 was - I came in at '94. That was an old rule. 12 When I was at MCC, Coleman, and when I was at 13 Coleman, Yazoo City, they pronounce them there. 14 The policy states it's not us. Our medical 15 people cannot pronounce an inmate dead. So, 16 let's say if an inmate, (Indiscernible 17 *01:23:13) or whoever, they have to be a 18 licensed, practiced. They can announce that 19 person dead - and I've seen it all the time - 20 at the jail. It's just common for them to say, 21 oh, he didn't die here. They always say that. 22 : Do you -- 23 : But -. 24 : -- do you believe, from 25 what you know now, two years later, that he was EFTA00062175

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 deceased while he was here, at the MCC? 2 : I believe it. 3 : Okay. 4 : I definitely believe it. 5 : So, he wasn't still alive 6 when he left? 7 : No. 8 : Okay. 9 : And that's just, when I got 10 to the hospital, and what I saw, there is no 11 way. And like I said, this is not, like, in my 12 27 years, this is not my first time around a 13 dead inmate. So, I've seen inmates fall out, 14 and die. So, there's no way. And when I got 15 to the hospital, because they was transporting 16 him, I met them at the hospital. So -. 17 : So, did you see them take 18 him out of the ambulance? 19 : When I met them at the 20 hospital, he was -. When I got to the 21 hospital, you know how you - he was already out 22 the ambulance. He was driving him to a safe, 23 secured area in the hospital room. But he was 24 already deceased. 25 : Do you know if, at that EFTA00062176

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 time, what he was wearing? 2 : I can't recall. I can just 3 -. Whatever was on the video over the news, 4 that's what he was wearing. Because I mean, 5 that is on that there, with the thing in his 6 mouth. That's what he was wearing. 7 : Okay. And then, as far 8 as, like, you know, all of the speculation 9 that's out there, do you have any information 10 that would suggest that Epstein did not take 11 his own life? 12 : I don't because I wasn't 13 there. You know, and, you know, what I 14 speculate is totally different. I mean, it is 15 what it is. 16 : Well, what is your 17 speculation? 18 : I just believe that -. 19 don't know how they went in the room. So, I 20 wasn't there, of how they went in the room. 21 You know, because, you know, when the doctor 22 say, hey, (Indiscernible *01:25:29), I took 23 inmates down in the room that was hanging, and 24 the only way you can get -. I don't care if 25 that inmate only weighs 140 pounds, you're not EFTA00062177

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1_- 1 doing it by yourself. 2 So, I don't know how they entered the 3 room. But policy states, when you go in the 4 room, you need to wait for a lieutenant. 5 Period. And you can't just pop that door. 6 Because how do you know that inmate is not 7 still living where he is trying to kill you, 8 and then escape? Or you definitely need help. 9 That's why you have to wait for a lieutenant, 10 because that lieutenant has to give you 11 instructions, go in, open it, helping you lift 12 that person, where if you go - to me - there is 13 no way, if it was two or three people, and we 14 picked that inmate up, they wouldn't say on the 15 news that his (Indiscernible *01:26:22). 16 I just think, me personally, and hadn't 17 heard anything, but I just think one person was 18 trying to do it by itself, and this, that's no 19 the proper way. And that's just my opinion. 20 : Right. 21 : Because in all the suicides, 22 and I've seen - I was at, remember, I was at 23 Coleman USP-1, USP-2 - I've seen numerous, and 24 I was the SHU lieutenant. I'm going with at 25 least three or four people. Midnight, I EFTA00062178

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 understand, at night, you only have, but it 2 don't matter. These inmates are locked down. 3 So, they can -. You can -. If I have a 4 hanging, they're already told. I'm already 5 telling people, you know to vacate that post. 6 Yes. 7 Anything can happen up there, but I would 8 rather have three or four people with me, in 9 the SHU, where inmate is attempting, because 10 don't know what's going on. You know, we heard 11 all the stuff that went on with peppy, so 12 definitely, I don't want something happening at 13 midnight, when you could just vacate your post, 14 come up there, and respond. 15 : So, is kind of what 16 you're saying, that, like, by having one 17 officer enter the cell, to respond -- 18 : Should have never happened. 19 : -- to Epstein, that could 20 actually cause more harm -- 21 : Of course. 22 are you talking about 23 physically, though, too, not only the ruse of, 24 you know, this person could overpower you, and 25 now have you as a hostage, but you could become EFTA00062179

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1__ 1 - that person who was attempting to hang 2 themself, or hanging themself -- 3 : Would it --- -- 4 : -- could it become more 5 physical -- 6 : That is correct. 7 : -- during the attempt. 8 : Because what if - my thing 9 is this - what if he was almost there, wasn't 10 deceased, and what if you're trying to lift 11 him, and, you know, lift him the right way, and 12 you -. Because if, you know, remember, when 13 they did the autopsy, then I would say, there's 14 no way he's going to break that where, unless, 15 you know, they was trying to say, you know, we 16 killed them, unless one person is trying to do 17 it. Epstein wasn't 140 pounds. He was 200 18 something. So, there is no way I could lift 19 that dude. There's no way. So, I would never 20 go in by myself. So, that's my speculation, 21 where somebody tried to do it by themselves, 22 cover it up, and that's what I see. Maybe I'm 23 wrong. But that's my speculation. That's 24 always going to be my speculation. Because 25 : So -- EFTA00062180

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 : -- I've been doing this for 2 too long. 3 : -- so, you're speculating 4 that the individual who went in could have 5 harmed him more than helped him, but do you 6 have any reason to believe that anyone, 7 including that staff member, are actually the 8 one that harmed him in the first place? Like, 9 do you know what I'm saying? 10 : Honestly, with them two, it 11 could have been anything. And that's just me. 12 It could have been. It could have been any. 13 Listen. I've seen a lot in the BOP. It could 14 have been anything. I don't know. 15 : Okay. 16 : It could have been anything. 17 : Did you ever hear 18 anything about, like, letting one inmate's cell 19 door open, while also letting Epstein's cell 20 open -- 21 : No. 22 : -- so that -- 23 : No. 24 : -- anything like that -? 25 : No. EFTA00062181

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 116 : Okay. : Have I heard it in the BOP? 3 Yes. In my 27 years. But in Epstein's case, 4 no. 5 : Okay. So, that's never 6 been a rumor that you've heard, that another 7 inmate actually is the one that harmed Epstein? 8 : I mean, you hear it, not in 9 the BOP, you hear it on the outside. I never 10 heard it on the BOP. Never heard staff, you 11 know, speculating that. Never. 12 : Okay. 13 : Because if I would have, I 14 probably would have wrote a memo about it. 15 : All right. 16 : Can I ask a question on that? 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : You said you've seen inmates 19 hanging themselves before. Right? You've 20 seen, you've been in that situation before. 21 : Many times. 22 : How -? Is it possible for, 23 if you're responding, you go in with a couple 24 of C.O.s, is it possible to just break the cord 25 off -? EFTA00062182

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 : No. We don't do that. In 2 all my lieutenants' life, and I was a 3 lieutenant for 13 years, or regardless of the 4 fact, but mine, we're taught this. There's no 5 ifs, ands, or buts. You're taught to go in 6 with enough people. One person, if it's two 7 inmates in there, you have to -. Especially if 8 it's day watch, and you should have at least 9 ten people. That's just like if you're having 10 a use of force. If there is one person, close 11 to five. 12 If you can't get five, you at least want 13 to have four. I'm not going to have three 14 people. I'm going to wait until they get 15 there. It is what it is. Yes. Do we want to 16 save the inmate? Yes. The point is, still, 17 you've got to look at your safety, and it's 18 really - when you're going to use of force, 19 it's five to one. Two inmates, it's ten to 20 one. So, you always kind of use that concept. 21 I will go in with one less, so we go in, our 22 job is one person lift the body, you have a cut 23 down tool, which is here. I have one. And you 24 cut the inmate down. That's a cut down tool. 25 : That's what they refer to as EFTA00062183

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 a cutter? 2 : That's considered a cut down 3 tool. If you look it up, it will be a cut down 4 tool. You get them from Galls. 5 : But if they say, oh, he 6 used a cutter to cut him down, that's what 7 they're talking about. Correct? 8 : They had -. They didn't 9 have something like this. I guess the new 10 warden wanted to order some. They cut down 11 tool, to me, it was dull. I mean, it was a 12 small little cut down tool where, let's say 13 you're cutting down something, to me, if 14 yodon't hold that inmate upright, you're doing 15 more damage, because you're trying to cut it 16 down. 17 : Okay. 18 : So, you're doing like this, 19 and what are you doing? You're shaking 20 whatever is on his neck, if it's tight, you're 21 shaking it down. These right here are actual 22 cut down tools, where you're going to go like 23 this one time, and it's just going to cut it. 24 So, the thing is, too, and, you know, there he 25 is. Let's say you do have -. Every SHU has EFTA00062184

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 cut down tools. Because they do. 2 But once again, who is responsible? 3 That's the captain. Checking equipment. 4 Making sure your equipment is not dull. After 5 two or three years, if you're not using 6 something, you're always supposed to check that 7 equipment. It's normal. And then, psychology, 8 they always do their mock drills. They do 9 their moc drills, I think, quarterly. You 10 know, pretend somebody is cut. So, at that 11 time, I would check myself, but I don't - me 12 personally - I would check myself. You just -. 13 You would -. I wouldn't want to go to a 14 hanging, and then I'm sitting there like this, 15 because once again, how does that look to me? 16 How does that look? Like, if they did have a 17 camera in the cell. And it doesn't look right. 18 : Speaking of cameras, do 19 you have any information, or reason to believe, 20 anyone potentially knocked off the cameras in 21 the SHU? 22 : Hmm. Actually, when I was 23 at the MCC, I thought, I knew that every camera 24 was working. And that's just me -. My -. 25 Because they even had cameras in the cell. EFTA00062185

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 mean, did they tell you that? They had cameras 2 in the cell. 3 : G-tier, and 10 South. 4 : 10 South. 5 : Right? 6 : Hmm. I don't know if it was 7 just. I don't know if it was just the G-tier. 8 They had -. No. I don't want to say that. 9 They had -. Because when we went in some cells 10 11 : Okay, that was the end of 12 the range, or each end of each range has a 13 camera. 14 : No. I'm not talking about 15 that. You have -. No. I - listen - I've been 16 in MCC long enough, I know G-tier. I know all 17 that. But they had some cameras in some cells, 18 and not specific cells. Do I remember offhand? 19 No. But they had those. I'm telling you they 20 had them. Because I remember going in the 21 cell, taking the inmate out. On what's that? 22 You have K, N, J, and K. Whatever is on the 23 bottom. I remember taking inmates out, and 24 show the camera. Because the inmate had, the 25 inmate had tissue on the camera. So, I was, EFTA00062186

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 like, what are you doing with tissue? I'm 2 telling you. This is, like, no more than, 3 like, six months ago. I remember taking tissue 4 off the -. So, and that was an old camera. 5 So, it was -. There is cameras in the cells. 6 : So, you said six months ago, 7 from today or six months from the Epstein 8 incident? 9 : No. From today, but those 10 cameras been -. Those are old cameras. 11 They're not, like -. I can tell the new 12 cameras are new cameras, I know how they look. 13 All the new cameras they just put in, that's an 14 old camera. 15 : Was it -- 16 : And I -. 17 in dry cell? 18 : That was not in dry cell. 19 I'm telling you. It's probably there still 20 now. It's - I'm telling you - it's an old 21 camera. 22 : So, but do you have any 23 information that someone intentionally knocked 24 the cameras offline? 25 : Hmm. EFTA00062187

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 : Or just your speculation? 2 : My thing is, I can tell you 3 this, I knew when the cameras was working, no, 4 it wasn't the captain. But any time a camera 5 was down, like, there would be - how you say 6 it? - it will be -. It was almost, like, 7 nationalized. Okay. Just cameras down. So, 8 we would know. And then, it would be forced to 9 make sure they fix it. Like, ASAP. 10 So, if the cameras was down, especially 11 certain cameras, they wouldn't even let inmates 12 out. They won't let them out. Because we 13 can't see certain things. So, I don't 14 was shocked to see that cameras wasn't 15 was very shocked. Very. Because with those 16 cameras, I think you could have saw more, and 17 it could have either helped or hindered people. 18 It didn't matter. I would rather for the 19 cameras to work. I don't care whether it's 20 there to get me or not. If the cameras was 21 working, I think the investigation would have 22 completed probably a long time ago. 23 : Yeah. Do you know who 24 was in charge of the cameras? 25 : The captain. Because it EFTA00062188

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 falls on the com tech. No. I'm sorry. Com 2 tech is, I want to say, com tech. Com tech. 3 Communication. 4 : Facilities manager, but - 5 6 : No. But it's still going to 7 be the captain because it's both of them 8 together, facilities manager and the captain, 9 because if something is not working, the 10 captain should know first. 11 : But how would have the 12 captain, or the facilities manager, have found 13 out? Who would have told them? 14 : Communications. They 15 should. Listen, if a camera is not working in 16 there, communications. That is - at that time, 17 it was . So, job is to report 18 that. Immediately. Hey, number one, number 19 seven, number eight in SHU was not working. 20 Number boom, boom, boom. We don't know. But 21 that's his job. If a camera goes offline, it's 22 his job to say this camera is offline. So, the 23 captain, then, could make that decision of what 24 they want to do. Of how they want to go about 25 things. That's his job. That's EFTA00062189

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 communications. 2 : Remember those initials 3 that we read earlier today? They're not 4 but whomever else would have been 5 checking -- 6 : I'm trying to think who -- 7 : -- out those, I think it 8 was the CMS or something like that. 9 : The only person who was in 10 there then was That I'm aware of. 11 : No, that's who he would have 12 contacted as -- 13 : Yeah. 14 : -- as (Indiscernible 15 *01:36:45). 16 : But that was a BOP 17 person. 18 : No. It's an office, I think. 19 : Yeah. 20 : Oh. 21 -: was the only 22 contractor, I mean, com, because they just 23 hired another person. 24 : Okay. 25 : And he wasn't -. Yeah. EFTA00062190

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 : So -- 2 : It was just 3 would have been 4 the only person. 5 : Yeah. It was just 6 : Is there an office inside the 7 BOP called the CMS? 8 : That's right by the -. 9 Where all the stuff is at? For the cameras and 10 all that. Where they -? 11 : Was it called? The CMS. 12 We're just trying to figure out what that is. 13 : Yeah. That's Camera 14 Maintenance -. Camera Maintenance System. So 15 16 : So, it's a thing. Not a 17 person. 18 : -- yeah, it's a thing. You 19 go -- 20 : Okay. 21 : -- you go right by the 22 lieutenant's office, and it's right in the back 23 of the (Indiscernible *01:37:22) -- 24 : So, he probably -- 25 you open that door EFTA00062191

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 : -- checked in the CMS, 2 not checking with the, like -- 3 : Okay. 4 : -- another person. 5 : Well, he said he checked 6 with the team. Well, that's -. It could be 7 If he checked with the CMS, well, I only 8 remember system, but that would be somebody in 9 the region. But his office is there. Like, he 10 could open that office, if something is down, 11 he know why it's down. Then he would report 12 that to either somebody higher. Either 13 regional or somebody, hey, this camera, what's 14 going on? Like, central office, or somebody. 15 Just like the phones. If the phones are down, 16 it's the central office guy that usually fix 17 the phone. So, it could have been the central 18 office, or the regional office. So, that could 19 have been the CMS he was talking about. 20 : Go ahead. Sorry. 21 : Just last clarifying. Just, 22 I know I asked you the question. Was it, do 23 you think it would have been possible if Thomas 24 walked in, he sees Epstein, like, laying there, 25 hanging? As one person, do you think he could EFTA00062192

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 have just pulled the rope, and yanked it off 2 himself? 3 : Ripped it. 4 : Ripped it off. 5 : Everybody was nervous at the 6 time. If I know for a fact I screwed up, 7 what's the first -? What's the first thing a 8 kid do? Easily, I'm going in by myself. I'm 9 trying to rip this off. I'm trying to get this 10 dude because, I already know I messed up. I 11 was either sleeping or doing whatever I was 12 doing. I was wrong. And his cell was right 13 there. Well, I could see all the activity that 14 this guy is doing. All I have to do is go do a 15 round. That's it. So, if I'm not doing 16 something, and I know I messed up, I'm going to 17 try to fix it. 18 : Was it possible for him to 19 pull it off without a cutter? 20 : If the cutter wasn't 21 working. That sheet? No. It's hard as -. 22 Listen. I tried cutting - because, you know, 23 inmates hang stuff, and we tell them not to. 24 So, I tried taking one off, and burnt my whole 25 hand. Like, I mean, it was literally, I had to EFTA00062193

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 take a sheet, and pull it, and you're going to 2 burn your whole -. My whole hand was burnt for 3 about a month. So, it's hard. Because my 4 understanding is, it was a sheet. So, if it's 5 a sheet, then just knock it down? No. And if 6 he had it knotted right, there's no way you 7 could take it down by your hand. 8 : And if a cutter was not used, 9 if they said a cutter was not, you yanked it 10 off, you think that's not possible? You're 11 saying that's not possible? 12 : Hmm. I saw what the media, 13 how his room was set up. Actually, I've been 14 up there. I saw it because they had the room 15 carved there for the FBI. That sheet is so 16 heavy, how -? And if -. Now, to untie it, and 17 then a knot come untie, yes. But if the knot 18 was still there, and you cut it, like this, 19 there's no way. There -. I don't -. Listen, 20 man. I'm strong. I know Thomas (Indiscernible 21 *01:40:05). I work out. There's no way I'm 22 going to just pull a sheet, and just come in. 23 There's no way. There's no way. 24 : Be similar to, like, 25 saying that he ripped a rope in half EFTA00062194

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 : Yeah. 2 : -- right? 3 : Once again, these are little 4 ropes that they put. Like that. On a bed. 5 They had it tied tight enough to where I 6 couldn't do it in the knot (Indiscernible 7 *01:40:27). I did that and burnt my whole 8 hand. So, I had to -. That's why I wind up 9 getting a cutter, so I could cut -. I had 10 burnt my whole hand for a month. It was a deep 11 scar. There is no way. There is And that, 12 I saw the spread. There is no way you're going 13 yank a spread off -. Unless it's coming, 14 unraveling from the actual knot. You know how 15 you do your shoelace? 16 : Yeah. 17 : Yeah. 18 : That's it. There's no way 19 you're going to do it. There's no Not even 20 - the biggest person in there was - not 21 even he could probably do it. 22 meaning -- 23 24 25 EFTA00062195

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 : Okay. 2 : He can't even do it. Arai 3 he's a big dude. There's no way. 4 : Anything else? 5 : Anything that we're 6 missing, that we should know about? 7 (Indiscernible *01:41:14). 8 : You guys are right on point. 9 : Well, you've been very 10 helpful. Thank you. 11 : Thank you for taking the time 12 to talk to us today. 13 : You're welcome. 14 : If there is anything you can 15 think about in the future, if you think there's 16 any information that might help us in the 17 investigation, please feel free to reach out 18 : No problem. 19 : -- and share that 20 information. 21 : But you sent it - let me 22 clarify, though, with the AW, 23 - you sent it to her, you sent those 24 pictures to her government phone. Correct? 25 : That is correct. EFTA00062196

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 : Okay. 2 : And her - and like I said -- 3 : (Indiscernible *01:41:38). 4 : -- if it was (840), I think 5 it was a I don't -. I didn't -- 6 -- (804) or (840)? 7 : (840). 8 : (840). 9 : I think that's her. 10 Wherever she came from, usually, if a AW come 11 from one institution to another, they can 12 actually keep their government phone. 13 : Okay. 14 : They just register it with 15 the agency here. 16 : Okay. Perfect. All right. 17 Well, thank you very much. 18 : Yes. This is Special Agent 19 . The time is 2:32 p.m. on 20 September 21st, 2021. We are ending the 21 interview. 22 23 24 25 26 EFTA00062197

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Transcriber EFTA00062198