LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 when I wrote the number down, you know how you 2 write it down on a piece of paper and put it in 3 your pocket, well, I couldn't find it. So, 4 there was no number. But I remember, vaguely, 5 what the number started with, because I 6 actually wrote it down, and I was going to - 7 that next day - ask the captain why we don't 8 have a logbook, and here's the numbers that he 9 actually called her. So. 10 MR. "Inmate Epstein began talking 11 on the phone. I told the staff to end inmate 12 Epstein's call after 15 minutes. They 13 complied." Is that the memo you wrote? 14 MR. : That is the memo I wrote. 15 MR. : Okay. Just, anything we show 16 you, which would be, in this case, the memo, 17 just initial it, and put today's date on it. 18 Today is September 21st. Here's a pen. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. The time? 20 MR. : You don't need the time. 21 Just the date and the initial. That's fine. 22 Thank you. I'm going to keep reading that. So 23 bear with me. provided this to Piv 24 , who is also new to the MCC. Captain 25 (Phonetic Sp. *01:17:18) had emailed EFTA00118967

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 , but responded that he couldn't 2 talk about the situation. The only colleague 3 whose phone number has is AW 4 because he had to use his personal phone to 5 email her his timeline of events, and pictures 6 of Epstein's body, prior to its transport by 7 OCME." Now, you said you - this states that 8 you used your personal phone to email pictures 9 of Epstein's body. Why did you use your 10 personal phone to take Epstein's -? 11 MR. : For one, R&D is supposed to 12 come out there. R&D is supposed to come out 13 there and fingerprint them. They came out 14 there. They fingerprinted and that was it. 15 Okay. So, me, knowing that, of course, they 16 want to know when we're leaving, because 17 sent me out there. So, I had to 18 stay with the body until the actual coroner 19 came. The coroner came. So, what I did was, 20 yes, I took the pictures, to let her know, yes, 21 I'm leaving now, this is the time I'm leaving. 22 This is his body. 23 Where I had proof that the inmate was 24 deceased, and he wasn't walking off somewhere 25 else. Because all the speculation now and in EFTA00118968

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 the news that he's not dead. So, I did that. 2 Boom, boom, boom. And I sent it to from my phone. This is, boom, boom, 4 boom. I left the hospital at this time, 5 arrived back at the institution at this time. 6 This is when they took his body and placed it 7 in here. This is a lot. This is where they 8 secured the inmate at. And then, I was able to 9 leave. 10 MR. : Were you instructed by 11 to take pictures? 12 MR. : I'm trying to think. It's 13 been so long. I could have. But I know I had 14 a reason why I took them. 15 MR. : And it was practice for 16 somebody to take pictures like that? 17 MR. : I would have did it for 18 and it didn't have to be Epstein - and this is 19 not my first time sitting on an inmate and the 20 coroner, but when we sit on an inmate, wait, we 21 have a camera from the institution. 22 MR. : Was there a -- 23 MR. : You see what I'm saying? 24 MR. : -- was there a camera this 25 time? Was there a camera this time? EFTA00118969

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : But it - once again - they 4 brought all the stuff there. So, R&D had a 5 camera. So, I don't know why they didn't leave 6 it with us (Indiscernible *01:19:31). I was 7 coming back to the institution. Because they 8 have a - each R&D has a briefcase, and in that 9 brief case is a camera, everything that you're 10 supposed to fingerprint an inmate on, and all 11 that stuff. And they have it for a reason, for 12 inmates that die. So, they could have left 13 that and said, hey, , when you guys 14 leave, you got to bring it back anyway, I'm 15 coming back to the institution. I'm going to 16 leave this briefcase with you. I would have, 17 then, took the pictures on that. But they 18 didn't. 19 MR. : So, they left with the 20 camera? 21 MR. : They left with everything. 22 MR. : And the phone number that you 23 texted to AW , was that her 24 personal or -? 25 MR. : That (804), if I'm correct, EFTA00118970

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 if it was (804), it should have been her BOP 2 cell number. I don't know if it was (804). 3 You have to -. Because I know I had, it was 4 two numbers. But I knew I only one number, and I think, if it was (804), 6 it was a prison number. It was her BOP phone. 7 MR. : Okay. And I'm going to keep 8 reading. 9 MR. : So, you texted her, not 10 emailed her. Correct? 11 MR. : No. But I did text her. 12 But the pictures went to her phone. 13 MR. : Her phone. So, texted 14 her -- 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : -- not email, because 17 doesn't it say email in there? 18 MR. : He said he emailed her his 19 timeline of events, and pictures of Epstein's 20 body, prior to its transport by OCME. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : So, did you email it to her, 23 or -? 24 MR. : It was email. Yeah. It was 25 text. EFTA00118971

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : So, you texted the pictures, 2 and emailed her 3 MR. : That is correct. 4 MR. -- the timeline of events? 5 MR. "After sending these 6 pictures, deleted them from his phone. 7 didn't speak, text, or email with 8 anyone else except his wife, who also works at 9 the MCC, in the food services section." Did 10 you forward those pictures to anybody else? 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : Did you tell anyone that you 13 had those pictures? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : Or share them anywhere? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : And you don't have them? 19 And you deleted them 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : -- those photos. 22 MR. : You're free to look. 23 MR. : No, no, no. No. That's 24 fine. 25 MR. : No, I'm just saying. EFTA00118972

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : I mean, I'm not -. Listen. 3 Trust me. 4 MR. : No, no. We're just going 5 to say -- 6 MR. : I want to get them -- 7 MR. : -- if you have them, can 8 you send them to us? 9 MR. : -- no. No. I am not -. 10 Listen. No. I deleted them that day. 11 MR. : That's all I had in terms of 12 questions. Do you have anything? 13 MR. : Yeah. So, speaking of, 14 like, pictures of the -. That was the 15 hospital. Correct? 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Do you know if anyone was 18 there filming at the hospital? 19 MR. : Remember, there were so many 20 people. I can't recall because my biggest 21 thing was - with those officers - was to guara 22 that body. Now, do I believe that people was 23 there? There was people there. 24 MR. : No, I mean, like, was 25 that, like, you know how, like, if there is a, EFTA00118973

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 you know, some kind of a use of force that 2 you've got to use against your institution 3 (Indiscernible *01:21:51) film, was someone 4 MR. : No, no, no. 5 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 6 *01:21:54). 7 MR. : From us? 8 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : So, no one was 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : -- filming from the BOP? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : There was people from the 16 outside, though. I know that for a fact. 17 MR. : From where? 18 MR. : From the outside. 19 MR. : Outside. Okay. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Do you know if Epstein 22 was deceased prior to leaving the MCC? 23 MR. : I wasn't there. I was the 24 duty officer. I was called by 25 And the only thing told me was, EFTA00118974

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 hey, , you need to get here ASAP. She 2 said Epstein attempted to commit suicide. I 3 was, like, okay. When I got there, he was 4 already at the hospital. He was deceased then. 5 So, she told me to report to the hospital, and 6 that's when I reported, and I noticed his 7 deceased body. 8 MR. : Do you know if, is there 9 any, like, rule, or unofficial or official, 10 that inmates can't be pronounced dead at the 11 MCC, or at the BOP facility? 12 MR. : That. There's not a policy. 13 They technically says it, but this, this rule 14 was - I came in at '94. That was an old rule. 15 when I was at MCC, Coleman, and when I was at 16 Coleman, Yazoo City, they pronounce them there. 17 The policy states it's not us. Our medical 18 people cannot pronounce an inmate dead. So, 19 let's say if an inmate, (Indiscernible 20 *01:23:13) or whoever, they have to be a 21 licensed, practiced. They can announce that 22 person dead - and I've seen it all the time - 23 at the jail. It's just common for them to say, 24 oh, he didn't die here. They always say that. 25 MR. : Do you -- EFTA00118975

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. : But -. 2 MR. : -- do you believe, from 3 what you know now, two years later, that he was 4 deceased while he was here, at the MCC? 5 MR. : I believe it. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : I definitely believe it. 8 MR. : So, he wasn't still alive 9 when he left? 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : And that's just, when I got 13 to the hospital, and what I saw, there is no 14 way. And like I said, this is not, like, in my 15 27 years, this is not my first time around a 16 dead inmate. So, I've seen inmates fall out, 17 and die. So, there's no way. And when I got 18 to the hospital, because they was transporting 19 him, I met them at the hospital. So -. 20 MR. : So, did you see them take 21 him out of the ambulance? 22 MR. : When I met them at the 23 hospital, he was -. When I got to the 24 hospital, you know how you - he was already out 25 the ambulance. He was driving him to a safe, EFTA00118976

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 secured area in the hospital room. But he was 2 already deceased. 3 MR. : Do you know if, at that 4 time, what he was wearing? 5 MR. : I can't recall. I can just 6 -. Whatever was on the video over the news, 7 that's what he was wearing. Because I mean, 8 that is on that there, with the thing in his 9 mouth. That's what he was wearing. 10 MR. : Okay. And then, as far 11 as, like, you know, all of the speculation 12 that's out there, do you have any information 13 that would suggest that Epstein did not take 14 his own life? 15 MR. : I don't because I wasn't 16 there. You know, and, you know, what I 17 speculate is totally different. I mean, it is 18 what it is. 19 MR. : Well, what is your 20 speculation? 21 MR. : I just believe that -. 22 don't know how they went in the room. So, I 23 wasn't there, of how they went in the room. 24 You know, because, you know, when the doctor 25 say, hey, (Indiscernible *01:25:29), I took EFTA00118977

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 inmates down in the room that was hanging, and 2 the only way you can get -. I don't care if 3 that inmate only weighs 140 pounds, you're not 4 doing it by yourself. 5 So, I don't know how they entered the 6 room. But policy states, when you go in the 7 room, you need to wait for a lieutenant. 8 Period. And you can't just pop that door. 9 Because how do you know that inmate is not 10 still living where he is trying to kill you, 11 and then escape? Or you definitely need help. 12 That's why you have to wait for a lieutenant, 13 because that lieutenant has to give you 14 instructions, go in, open it, helping you lift 15 that person, where if you go - to me - there is 16 no way, if it was two or three people, and we 17 picked that inmate up, they wouldn't say on the 18 news that his (Indiscernible *01:26:22). 19 I just think, me personally, and hadn't 20 heard anything, but I just think one person was 21 trying to do it by itself, and this, that's no 22 the proper way. And that's just my opinion. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : Because in all the suicides, 25 and I've seen - I was at, remember, I was at EFTA00118978

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 Coleman USP-1, USP-2 - I've seen numerous, and 2 I was the SHU lieutenant. I'm going with at 3 least three or four people. Midnight, I 4 understand, at night, you only have, but it 5 don't matter. These inmates are locked down. 6 So, they can -. You can -. If I have a 7 hanging, they're already told. I'm already 8 telling people, you know to vacate that post. 9 Yes. 10 Anything can happen up there, but I would 11 rather have three or four people with me, in 12 the SHU, where inmate is attempting, because I 13 don't know what's going on. You know, we heard 14 all the stuff that went on witwhcn I 15 (Indiscernible *01:27:09) peppy, so definitely, 16 I don't want something happening at midnight, 17 when you could just vacate your post, come up 18 there, and respond. 19 MR. : So, is kind of what 20 you're saying, that, like, by having one 21 officer enter the cell, to respond -- 22 MR. : Should have never happened. 23 MR. : -- to Epstein, that could 24 actually cause more harm -- 25 MR. : Of course. EFTA00118979

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 114 MR. : -- are you talking about physically, though, too, not only the ruse teese (Phonetic Sp. *01:27:27) of, you know, this person could overpower you, and now have you as a hostage, but you could become - that person who was attempting to hang themself, or hanging themself MR. : Would it --- -- MR. : -- could it become more physical -- MR. : That is correct. MR. : -- during the attempt. MR. : Because what if - my thing is this - what if he was almost there, wasn't deceased, and what if you're trying to lift him, and, you know, lift him the right way, and you -. Because if, you know, remember, when they did the autopsy, then I would say, there's no way he's going to break that where, unless, you know, they was trying to say, you know, we killed them, unless one person is trying to do it. Epstein wasn't 140 pounds. He was 200 something. So, there is no way I could lift that dude. There's no way. So, I would never go in by myself. So, that's my speculation, EFTA00118980

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 where somebody tried to do it by themselves, 2 cover it up, and that's what I see. Maybe I'm 3 wrong. But that's my speculation. That's 4 always going to be my speculation. Because -- 5 MR. : So -- 6 MR. : -- I've been doing this for 7 too long. 8 MR. : -- so, you're speculating 9 that the individual who went in could have 10 harmed him more than helped him, but do you 11 have any reason to believe that anyone, 12 including that staff member, are actually the 13 one that harmed him in the first place? Like, 14 do you know what I'm saying? 15 MR. : Honestly, with them two, it 16 could have been anything. And that's just me. 17 It could have been. It could have been any. 18 Listen. I've seen a lot in the BOP. It could 19 have been anything. I don't know. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : It could have been anything. 22 MR. : Did you ever hear 23 anything about, like, letting one inmate's cell 24 door open, while also letting Epstein's cell 25 open -- EFTA00118981

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : -- so that -- 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : -- anything like that -? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Have I heard it in the BOP? 8 Yes. In my 27 years. But in Epstein's case, 9 no. 10 MR. : Okay. So, that's never 11 been a rumor that you've heard, that another 12 inmate actually is the one that harmed Epstein? 13 MR. : I mean, you hear it, not in 14 the BOP, you hear it on the outside. I never 15 heard it on the BOP. Never heard staff, you 16 know, speculating that. Never. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Because if I would have, 19 probably would have wrote a memo about it. 20 MR. : All right. 21 MR. : Can I ask a question on that? 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : You said you've seen inmates 24 hanging themselves before. Right? You've 25 seen, you've been in that situation before. EFTA00118982

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Many times. 2 MR. : How -? Is it possible for, 3 if you're responding, you go in with a couple 4 of C.O.s, is it possible to just break the cord 5 off -? 6 MR. : No. We don't do that. In 7 all my lieutenants' life, and I was a 8 lieutenant for 13 years, or regardless of the 9 fact, but mine, we're taught this. There's no 10 ifs, ands, or buts. You're taught to go in 11 with enough people. One person, if it's two 12 inmates in there, you have to -. Especially if 13 it's day watch, and you should have at least 14 ten people. That's just like if you're having 15 a use of force. If there is one person, close 16 to five. 17 If you can't get five, you at least want 18 to have four. I'm not going to have three 19 people. I'm going to wait until they get 20 there. It is what it is. Yes. Do we want to 21 save the inmate? Yes. The point is, still, 22 you've got to look at your safety, and it's 23 really - when you're going to use of force, 24 it's five to one. Two inmates, it's ten to 25 one. So, you always kind of use that concept. EFTA00118983

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 I will go in with one less, so we go in, our 2 job is one person lift the body, you have a cut 3 down tool, which is here. I have one. And you 4 cut the inmate down. That's a cut down tool. 5 MR. : That's what they refer to as 6 a cutter? 7 MR. : That's considered a cut down 8 tool. If you look it up, it will be a cut down 9 tool. You get them from Galls(Indiscernible 10 *01:30:55). 11 MR. : But if they say, oh, he 12 used a cutter to cut him down, that's what 13 they're talking about. Correct? 14 MR. : They had -. They didn't 15 have something like this. I guess the new 16 warden wanted to order some. They cut down 17 tool, to me, it was dull. I mean, it was a 18 small little cut down tool where, let's say 19 you're cutting down something, to me, if yoe 20 don't hold that inmate upright, you're doing 21 more damage, because you're trying to cut it 22 down. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : So, you're doing like this, 25 and what are you doing? You're shaking EFTA00118984

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 whatever is on his neck, if it's tight, you're shaking it down. These right here are actual cut down tools, where you're going to go like this one time, and it's just going to cut it. So, the thing is, too, and, you know, there he is. Let's say you do have -. Every SHU has cut down tools. Because they do. But once again, who is responsible? That's the captain. Checking equipment. Making sure your equipment is not dull. After two or three years, if you're not using something, you're always supposed to check that equipment. It's normal. And then, psychology, they always do their mock m4e drills. They do their moc4e—m4e drills, I think, quarterly. You know, pretend somebody is cut. So, at that time, I would check myself, but I don't - me personally - I would check myself. You just -. You would -. I wouldn't want to go to a hanging, and then I'm sitting there like this, because once again, how does that look to me? How does that look? Like, if they did have a camera in the cell. And it doesn't look right. MR. : Speaking of cameras, do you have any information, or reason to believe, EFTA00118985

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 anyone potentially knocked off the cameras in 2 the SHU? 3 MR. : Hmm. Actually, when I was 4 at the MCC, I thought, I knew that every camera 5 was working. And that's just me -. My -. 6 Because they even had cameras in the cell. I 7 mean, did they tell you that? They had cameras 8 in the cell. 9 MR. : G-tier, and 10 South. 10 MR. : 10 South. 11 MR. : Right? 12 MR. : Hmm. I don't know if it was 13 just. I don't know if it was just the G-tier. 14 They had -. No. I don't want to say that. 15 They had -. Because when we went in some cells 16 17 MR. : Okay, that was the end of 18 the range, or each end of each range has a 19 camera. 20 MR. : No. I'm not talking about 21 that. You have No. I - listen - I've been 22 in MCC long enough, I know G-tier. I know all 23 that. But they had some cameras in some cells, 24 and not specific cells. Do I remember offhand? 25 No. But they had those. I'm telling you they EFTA00118986

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lz_ 1 had them. Because I remember going in the 2 cell, taking the inmate out. On what's that? 3 You have K, N, J, and K. Whatever is on the 4 bottom. I remember taking inmates out, and 5 show the camera. Because the inmate had, the 6 inmate had tissue on the camera. So, I was, 7 like, what are you doing with tissue? I'm 8 telling you. This is, like, no more than, 9 like, six months ago. I remember taking tissue 10 off the -. So, and that was an old camera. 11 So, it was -. There is cameras in the cells. 12 MR. : So, you said six months ago, 13 from today or six months from the Epstein 14 incident? 15 MR. : No. From today, but those 16 cameras been -. Those are old cameras. 17 They're not, like -. I can tell the new 18 cameras are new cameras, I know how they look. 19 All the new cameras they just put in, that's an 20 old camera. 21 MR. : Was it -- 22 MR. : And I -. 23 MR. in dry cell? 24 MR. : That was not in dry cell. 25 I'm telling you. It's probably there still EFTA00118987

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 now. It's - I'm telling you - it's an old 2 camera. 3 MR. : So, but do you have any 4 information that someone intentionally knocked 5 the cameras offline? 6 MR. : Hmm. 7 MR. : Or just your speculation? 8 MR. : My thing is, I can tell you 9 this, I knew when the cameras was working, no, 10 it wasn't the captain. But any time a camera 11 was down, like, there would be - how you say 12 it? - it will be -. It was almost, like, 13 nationalized. Okay. Just cameras down. So, 14 we would know. And then, it would be forced to 15 make sure they fix it. Like, ASAP. 16 So, if the cameras was down, especially 17 certain cameras, they wouldn't even let inmates 18 out. They won't let them out. Because we 19 can't see certain things. So, I don't 20 was shocked to see that cameras wasn't 21 was very shocked. Very. Because with those 22 cameras, I think you could have saw more, and 23 it could have either helped or hindered people. 24 It didn't matter. I would rather for the 25 cameras to work. I don't care whether it's EFTA00118988

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 there to get me or not. If the cameras was 2 working, I think the investigation would have 3 completed probably a long time ago. 4 MR. : Yeah. Do you know who 5 was in charge of the cameras? 6 MR. : The captain. Because it 7 falls on the com tech. No. I'm sorry. Com 8 tech is, I want to say, com tech. Com tech. 9 Communication. 10 MR. : Facilities manager, but - 11 12 MR. : No. But it's still going to 13 be the captain because it's both of them 14 together, facilities manager and the captain, 15 because if something is not working, the 16 captain should know first. 17 MR. : But how would have the 18 captain, or the facilities manager, have found 19 out? Who would have told them? 20 MR. : Communications. They 21 should. Listen, if a camera is not working in 22 there, communications. That is - at that time, 23 it was . So, job is to report 24 that. Immediately. Hey, number one, number 25 seven, number eight in SHU was not working. EFTA00118989

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 Number boom, boom, boom. We don't know. But 2 that's his job. If a camera goes offline, it's 3 his job to say this camera is offline. So, the 4 captain, then, could make that decision of what 5 they want to do. Of how they want to go about 6 things. That's his job. That's 7 communications. 8 MR. : Remember those initials 9 that we read earlier today? They're not 10 but whomever else would have been 11 checking -- 12 MR. : I'm trying to think who -- 13 MR. : -- out those, I think it 14 was the CMS or something like that. 15 MR. : The only person who was in 16 there then was . That I'm aware of. 17 MR. : No, that's who he would have 18 contacted as -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : -- as (Indiscernible 21 *01:36:45). 22 MR. : But that was a BOP 23 person. 24 MR. : No. It's an office, I think. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00118990

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 MR. : Oh. 2 MR. -: was the only 3 contractor, I mean, com, because they just 4 hired another person. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : And he wasn't Yeah. 7 MR. : So -- 8 MR. : It was just 9 MR. would have been 10 the only person. 11 MR. : Yeah. It was just 12 MR. : Is there an office inside the 13 BOP called the CMS? 14 MR. : That's right by the -. 15 Where all the stuff is at? For the cameras and 16 all that. Where they -? 17 MR. : Was it called? The CMS. 18 We're just trying to figure out what that is. 19 MR. : Yeah. That's Camera 20 Maintenance -. Camera Maintenance System. So 21 22 MR. : So, it's a thing. Not a 23 person. 24 MR. : -- yeah, it's a thing. You 25 go -- EFTA00118991

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : -- you go right by the 3 lieutenant's office, and it's right in the back 4 of the (Indiscernible *01:37:22) -- 5 MR. : So, he probably -- 6 MR. you open that door 7 MR. : -- checked in the CMS, 8 not checking with the, like -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : -- another person. 11 MR. : Well, he said he checked 12 with the team. Well, that's -. It could be 13 If he checked with the CMS, well, I only 14 remember system, but that would be somebody in 15 the region. But his office is there. Like, he 16 could open that office, if something is down, 17 he know why it's down. Then he would report 18 that to either somebody higher. Either 19 regional or somebody, hey, this camera, what's 20 going on? Like, central office, or somebody. 21 Just like the phones. If the phones are down, 22 it's the central office guy that usually fix 23 the phone. So, it could have been the central 24 office, or the regional office. So, that could 25 have been the CMS he was talking about. EFTA00118992

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Go ahead. Sorry. MR. : Just last clarifying. Just, I know I asked you the question. Was it, do you think it would have been possible if Thomas walked in, he sees Epstein, like, laying there, hanging? As one person, do you think he could have just pulled the rope, and yanked it off himself? MR. MR. MR. : Ripped it. : Ripped it off. : Everybody was nervous at the time. If I know for a fact I screwed up, what's the first -? What's the first thing a kid do that (Indiscernible *01:38:30)? Easily, I'm going in by myself. I'm trying to rip this off. I'm trying to get this dude because, I already know I messed up. I was either sleeping or doing whatever I was doing. I was wrong. And his cell was right there. Well, I could see all the activity that this guy is doing. All I have to do is go do a round. That's it. So, if I'm not doing something, and I know I messed up, I'm going to try to fix it. MR. : Was it possible for him to pull it off without a cutter? EFTA00118993

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 MR. : If the cutter wasn't 2 working. That sheet? No. It's hard as -. 3 Listen. I tried cutting - because, you know, 4 inmates hang stuff, and we tell them not to. 5 So, I tried taking one off, and burnt my whole 6 hand. Like, I mean, it was literally, I had to 7 take a sheet, and pull it, and you're going to 8 burn your whole -. My whole hand was burnt for 9 about a month. So, it's hard. Because my 10 understanding is, it was a sheet. So, if it's 11 a sheet, then just knock it down? No. And if 12 he had it knotted right, there's no way you 13 could take it down by your hand. 14 MR. : And if a cutter was not used, 15 if they said a cutter was not, you yanked it 16 off, you think that's not possible? You're 17 saying that's not possible? 18 MR. : Hmm. I saw what the media, 19 how his room was set up. Actually, I've been 20 up there. I saw it because they had the room 21 carved there for the FBI. That sheet is so 22 heavy, how -? And if -. Now, to untie it, and 23 then a knot come untie, yes. But if the knot 24 was still there, and you cut it, like this, 25 there's no way. There -. I don't -. Listen, EFTA00118994

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 man. I'm strong. I know Thomas (Indiscernible 2 *01:40:05). I work out. There's no way I'm 3 going to just pull a sheet, and just come in. 4 There's no way. There's no way. 5 MR. : Be similar to, like, 6 saying that he ripped a rope in half -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- right? 9 MR. : Once again, these are little 10 ropes that they put. Like that. On a bed. 11 They had it tied tight enough to where I 12 couldn't do it in the knot (Indiscernible 13 *01:40:27). I did that and burnt my whole 14 hand. So, I had to -. That's why I wind up 15 getting a cutter, so I could cut -. I had 16 burnt my whole hand for a month. It was a deep 17 scar. There is no way. There is And that, 18 I saw the spread. There is no way you're going 19 I yank a spread off to -. That you could 20 (Indiscernible *01:40:40). Unless it's coming, 21 unraveling from the actual knot. You know how 22 you do your shoelace? 23 MR. Yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : That's it. There's no way EFTA00118995

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 2 - the biggest person in there was - not 3 even he could probably do it.p y it opcn 4 MR. -: 5 MR. 6 MR. 7 MR. -: 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : He can't even do it. A2 1 10 he's a big dude. There's no way. 11 MR. : Anything else? 12 MR. : Anything that we're 13 missing, that we should know about? 14 (Indiscernible *01:41:14). 15 MR. : You guys are right on point. 16 MR. : Well, you've been very 17 helpful. Thank you. 18 MR. : Thank you for taking the time 19 to talk to us today. 20 MR. : You're welcome. 21 MR. : If there is anything you can 22 think about in the future, if you think there's 23 any information that might help us in the 24 investigation, please feel free to reach out 25 MR. : No problem. you're going to do it. There's no -. Not even meaning -- EFTA00118996

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. -- and share that information. MR. clarify, though, with the AW, - you sent it to her, you sent those pictures to her government phone. Correct? MR. : That is correct. MR. : Okay. MR. : And her - and MR. : (Indiscernible MR. : -- if it was it was a -. I don't -. I didn't -- MR. -- (804) or (840)? MR. : (840). MR. : (840). MR. : I think that's her. Wherever she came from, usually, if a AW come from one institution to another, they can actually keep their government phone. MR. : Okay. MR. : They just register it with the agency here. MR. : But you sent it - let me like I said *01:41:38). (840), I think Okay. Perfect. All right. Well, thank you very much. MR. Yes. This is Special Agent EFTA00118997

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 . The time is 2:32 p.m. on 2 September 21st, 2021. We are ending the 3 interview. 132 EFTA00118998

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Transcriber EFTA00118999