101 1 2 3 4 let's say 1:00 back. : Mm-hmm. : And then MCC was notified by or 2:00 that he's not coming 5 : Yep. 6 : Would that have - that 7 information have come down to the SHU? Would 8 the SHU have known that he's not coming back? 9 : They -. So they don't know 10 that automatically. No. 11 : But someone would have to 12 inform them. 13 : That is correct. 14 : Is it normal practice to 15 inform them? 16 : Yes. 17 : And who would have made that 18 uh -? 19 : The operations lieutenant. 20 : Who would -? 21 : Would have been told by R&D 22 and the captain. 23 : And that ops lieutenant would 24 be -? Who is that ops lieutenant? 25 -: EFTA00058622

102 1 : And also should have 2 notified the SHU. 3 : Absolutely. 4 : And who in the SHU would he 5 have notified at that point? 6 When we call SHU, we don't 7 always say hey I need to speak to OIC. If I'm 8 on, I want the senior staff because they just 9 know more. So like if I pick up the phone and 10 I know it's somebody with a year in. Oh let me 11 get 12 : Okay. 13 : I want the person with the 14 most time because they're more experienced. So 15 if I'm calling SHU. Hey, I'm saying clear 16 instructions. Make sure Epstein has a cellie 17 in the next hour or the next half hour or 18 whatever. 19 : So who would have been the 20 people in the SHU at that point you could have 21 possibly spoken to? 22 . There's three 23 people. One, two, three, four. Four people 24 was on day watch. 25 : What were their names? EFTA00058623

103 1 • 2 3 : You had a follow-up on that? 4 : No. But I mean is that 5 who would usually call the SHU and says he's 6 not coming back? 7 : No. 8 : No. I didn't think so. 9 : No. No. R&D staff. 10 : R&D should have notified. 11 : Notified SHU. 12 : Yes. 13 : And that's what you 14 asked. 15 : R&D has to notify the captain 16 and lieutenants. 17 : That was my understanding 18 too. 19 : Okay. R&D had to notify 20 them. 21 22 23 Yes. Okay. Now if it's - if it wasn't 24 like a person who needs a cellie, you don't 25 have to call lieutenants and tell them that an EFTA00058624

104 1 inmate left. But if he required a cellmate, 2 and it's a special case, then everyone knows 3 that the phone should be ringing. But if it's 4 just a regular inmate. Somebody got bailed 5 out. It's not that big of a deal. 6 : Just to clarify. Let's say 7 the call wasn't made and none of that happened. 8 Now the 10:00 p.m. count comes around. Whoever 9 is in the SHU has to do the 10:00 p.m. count. 10 If they did the count, and they know, then 11 there was instructions stating hey listen, 12 Epstein needed a cellmate. They did the count, 13 they realized there's not cellmate. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : What should they have done? 16 : They should have got him a 17 cellmate. Because -. 18 : Who should they have 19 notified? 20 : Operations lieutenant. 21 : Okay. 22 : You always call operations 23 lieutenant. But we can - SHU staff can move 24 inmates anytime they want to. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058625

105 1 2 it. So. 3 4 You've just got to justify : Understood. : So you would be calling -. 5 Sorry. Oh, what's up? I was calling you. 6 UNKNWON MALE: What's going on? You 7 called. I'm just - work done. 8 : So you're next. You next? 9 : Alright. So I'm going to 10 move on. Why do COs have to come and conduct 11 rounds? It's just a generic question. Why do 12 they have to conduct rounds? 13 : To check on the wellbeing of 14 inmates. 15 : What about the counts? 16 : Counts to make sure inmates 17 are alive and well and breathing. 18 : Okay. I'm going to move on. 19 Are you aware there's cameras inside the MCC? 20 : Absolutely. 21 : Okay. Have you ever utilized 22 it for work? 23 : What do you mean? 24 : As a lieutenant, have you 25 ever used it to see the staff movement -? EFTA00058626

106 1 : No. I always reviewed it 2 with another lieutenant. 3 : Did you know during that time 4 if any of the cameras were down and not 5 working? 6 : I wouldn't. I didn't' know 7 that. 8 : You didn't. Okay. If the 9 cameras were down, who is responsibility was it 10 to get it fixed or to make sure it was working? 11 : Facilities Department. 12 : Facilities Department. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Now I'm going to go back. 15 You mentioned that in the attorney conference 16 room, you saw Epstein in there. And you 17 interacted with him a little bit. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Or he asked for something. 20 How was his mood that day? 21 : He doesn't really talk much 22 the times that I've observed him in attorney 23 conference. He's always in his work with his 24 attorneys. 25 : Was he annoyed? Was he EFTA00058627

107 1 upsets about anything? Did he show any 2 emotional -? What are SHU inmates allowed to 3 have in their cell? Give me one second. 4 : Keep going. 5 : What are SHU inmates allowed 6 to have in their cell? 7 : Food. 8 : Okay. 9 : Food items. Commissary 10 items. 11 : What kind of commissary 12 items? 13 : Um, like tuna fish, tea bags. 14 : Okay. Just food items like 15 that. What about pill bottles? Are they 16 allowed to have pill bottles in there? 17 : Inmates in the special 18 housing unit. Some of them are self-carry. 19 And some of them have to get their medication 20 when medical makes rounds. 21 : Self-carry meaning -. 22 : It's on their person. 23 : Okay. Was Epstein authorized 24 to have any pills in his cell? 25 : I don't know. EFTA00058628

108 1 : You don't know. Okay. How 2 many changes of clothing or linens are inmates 3 allowed to have in the SHU? 4 : We have shower days Monday, 5 Wednesday, Fridays. And that's when we did 6 linen exchange. 7 : Okay. 8 : And clothing exchange. 9 : Are they supposed to -? Are 10 they allowed to have multiple spare clothing 11 inside the SHU with them? 12 : We call that nuisance. So 13 there are times they accumulate more than what 14 they are supposed to have. 15 : Okay. So it does happen once 16 in a while. 17 : Yes. 18 : Is it a responsibility of the 19 SHU CCOs to make sure that not too many 20 clothing or linens are in that cell? 21 22 23 do they do? 24 : Yes. : Okay. And if there is what : Well if you have 100 inmates 25 in the special housing unit, you know cell EFTA00058629

109 1 2 searches are not conducted every day. On the same inmate. 3 : Okay. 4 : So cell searches are spread 5 out. So like say if you do a shakedown on cell 6 one on Monday, you may get to cell 10 on 7 Thursday. 8 : Okay. 9 : So you know what I'm saying? 10 : You might not have seen it. 11 : Exactly. 12 : They might not have seen it. 13 Okay. How was Epstein's interaction with other 14 inmates? 15 : I don't know. 16 : Okay. 17 : I wouldn't know that. 18 : Do you know if there was any 19 threats made to Epstein? 20 : I don't know. 21 : Okay. These are generic 22 questions I have to get through. 23 : Oh, no. No-no. I know. 24 : Did you know why Epstein was 25 in prison? EFTA00058630

110 1 : Um, pornography, pedophile 2 allegations and charges of that. 3 : Did you have any specific 4 feelings in regarding why he was in prison? 5 : Don't care. 6 : Okay. Did you speak about 7 Epstein with other inmates? 8 : Don't care. 9 : Okay. 10 : No. 11 : When you came back to work 12 the next day. August 10th. What shift did you 13 come back on? 14 : Um, 8:00 to 4:00. 15 : 8:00 to 4:00. When you 16 showed up, was Epstein still there? Or was he 17 already in - at the hospital? 18 : Well I wouldn't know because 19 when everything happened, I wasn't on shift 20 anyway. So I'm not sure what time he 21 : No but you came in at 8:00 22 a.m. Was the ambulance gone - everyone left 23 from there? 24 : I don't remember. 25 : Okay. Did you respond to his EFTA00058631

111 1 cell? Did you go to his cell at all? 2 : No. 3 : Okay. Do you have questions? 4 : Yeah. 5 : Okay. 6 : So to go back to the 7 counts when he was talking about trying to get 8 you to put that Rubik's Cube together. 9 : Yeah. 10 : Um, you know. So if 11 these were falsified. So let's say now - he 12 kind of pointed out - like at some point it 13 looks like somebody left. We don't know 14 exactly when that was. So let's say 4:00 p.m., 15 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m. were falsified. Who 16 would be responsible for falsifying that? 17 Everybody in the SHU? 18 : No. Whoever's names were on 19 the -- 20 : On the count slips? 21 count slips. Correct. 22 : So if there's like four 23 people on the SHU though, it would only be the 24 two people on the count slip not the other two 25 people? EFTA00058632

112 1 : That is correct. 2 : Alright. And that's just 3 -. So it doesn't have to be like a big hey 4 we're not doing counts today. They wouldn't 5 tell the other people we're not doing them. 6 Would the other two people know that they 7 didn't conduct the counts? 8 : Not necessarily because other 9 things are happening. 10 : Okay. 11 Mm-hmm. So if there are four 12 people in SHU like no one's babysitting. Like 13 I'm not hovering over you. Like we have a job 14 to do. You're counting. I could be over there 15 prepping the meals. So you know. Like you're 16 not on my back saying hey are you getting the 17 meals ready. Like you're counting, I'm doing 18 food trays. 19 : Okay. And about how long 20 does a count take? 21 : To count inmates? About 15 22 to 20 minutes if it's a smooth count. 23 : Uh-huh. 24 : Just your area. 25 : And that is like a SHU, EFTA00058633

113 1 that's the timeframe? 2 : Yeah. 3 : Okay. And what about for 4 a round? How long does a round take? 5 : On a tier or altogether? 6 : In the SHU. So I'm 7 talking specific to the SHU. Both instances. 8 : Rounds, let me see, two-four- 9 six-eight-ten-twelve. Maybe take you about 12 10 to 15 minutes to -. 11 : So they're roughly the 12 same? 13 : For a smooth round. Now if 14 you're doing rounds an inmates are stopping 15 you. Then you know it can take longer. 16 : Okay. Now rounds, I've 17 heard some instances where if people go down 18 the range to deal with something, they could 19 potentially count that as a round. Is that -? 20 : So like -. That is correct. 21 So if you're -. Say for instance if an inmate 22 is saying he needs a roll of tissue. And you 23 get the tissue and you go on the tier. And 24 you're like oh. And his tier is all the way in 25 the corner. Me? I would have the roll of EFTA00058634

114 1 tissue. I would look at every inmate. Give 2 you your tissue. Keep going. Killing two 3 birds with one stone. 4 : Perfect. And you don't 5 actually have to check in with them when you're 6 doing a round? Like you good? You good? You 7 good? You just look. 8 : So no. Rounds - officer 9 rounds - it's the inmates like, we're here. 10 : Yep. 11 : So I'm on your door. You 12 know I'm an officer. 13 14 15 something. 16 : You walk by. If you need something, say : Sure. 17 : You know if someone in there 18 doing jumping jacks, pushups, you know. 19 : Whereas the count, you 20 actually need to check in and say -? 21 : The count is we're checking 22 for inmates are standing up for count. Making 23 sure that they're facing you. we need to see 24 live breathing bodies. So. 25 : And how do you do it at EFTA00058635

115 1 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? Do you 2 guys wake them up? 3 : They see flashlights. Yes. 4 : So you actually have to 5 wake the people up? 6 : So like if the inmates are -. 7 They don't have to stand up. It's not a 8 standup count. 9 : So you good? 10 : Over night. So if they're 11 laying down and some have the covers over their 12 head, knock. They'll pull the sheets over. 13 You see their face. They move. You're seeing 14 movement, you're seeing live, breathing bodies. 15 : Okay. But they do 16 actually have to knock. They do have to see 17 them move. 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. Can you show her 20 that email? Do you have the email? 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. And this is an 23 email that went from - and you said, psychology 24 really should have made that -. Psychology 25 sent it out. It looks like to almost all the EFTA00058636

116 1 lieutenants -- 2 3 Okay. : -- saying that Epstein 4 was required to have a cellmate. 5 Yep. 6 : And that was on July 30th 7 of 2019. 8 : Okay. 9 : You've never seen that. 10 Correct? 11 : That is correct. 12 : Alright. So it - that 13 went out. Now all the lieutenants know. You 14 can kind of flip the page and kind of see 15 everybody -- 16 : Okay. 17 : -- that was on it. 18 : Got you. 19 : Who should have told you 20 about that? So it was never 21 As an officer or a -? 22 : As an acting. You're now 23 an acting lieutenant. 24 : Yes. 25 : Whose responsibility was EFTA00058637

117 1 it to tell you as an acting lieutenant hey -. 2 : Operations. Because he is -. 3 Although I'm acting, I don't get lieutenant 4 emails because I'm not an official lieutenant. 5 : So that day 6 should have told you hey by the way? 7 : Yes. 8 : And how often in August 9 leading up to that -? So from July 30th until 10 August 9th. How often were you an acting 11 lieutenant? 12 : I do off and on for overtime. 13 : So -. 14 : So I would have to look at my 15 roster to know -- 16 : Oh you're have to look. 17 : -- if I was on activities 18 that day, I was activities that day. 19 : Do your Was it quite 20 often? 21 : Around that time? Because 22 they were short lieutenants, I would say at 23 least maybe once or twice a month. I did 24 activities lieutenant. 25 : Once or twice a month. EFTA00058638

118 1 : Yes. 2 : Alright. So being that 3 this was only July 30th to August 9th -. 4 : Maybe twice. 5 : Possible twice? 6 : Yeah, two-three times 7 probably. 8 : Do you think it's -. 9 Being that the lieutenants 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : -- or the ops lieutenants 12 and activities lieutenants, should have someone 13 told you? 14 : Absolutely. 15 : Okay. 16 : Yes. 17 : And in this case, when 18 you're working, it should have been 19 : Yes. 20 : Alright. So 21 should have told you -- 22 : Yes. 23 : -- hey just so you know, 24 Epstein 25 : Yes. EFTA00058639

119 1 : Alright. As far as -. 2 Nope. Never mind. Those were my follow-ups. 3 Let me just look at this. Now in any of those 4 instances, would the captain be responsible? 5 Or does it always -? Do you think it's really 6 the ops lieutenant? 7 : Captain. 8 : The captain would be 9 responsible? So should have the captain told 10 you as well then? 11 : The captain can always 12 communicate with his lieutenants. Always. 13 : Okay. But as an acting 14 lieutenant I mean. 15 : Oh absolutely. If I'm acting 16 that day, then it's his or her responsibility 17 to include me in what's going on. 18 : Okay. So what about in 19 this instance where you didn't start until I 20 think later in the day. 21 : Yeah. 22 : Captain's gone. 23 24 25 : Yeah. : So would it -? : I forgot about that. Yeah. EFTA00058640

120 1 Yeah, so if I'm starting at four, he's gone. 2 : So it should have been 3 again -. 4 : Yes. 5 : -- at the ops. 6 : Is there a SHU lieutenant? 7 : There is a SHU lieutenant but 8 I don't think that day they had. 9 : Was the SHU 10 lieutenant? 11 : I don't remember who was the 12 SHU lieutenant at the time. 13 : If there was a SHU lieutenant 14 and they -. What was normal schedule? Like 15 what would have been their schedule? 16 : Um, 6:00 to 2:00 and 7:00 to 17 3:00. 18 : Okay. So they would be gone 19 before you came on to your shift? 20 : Yes. 21 : Would - if it had been their 22 responsibility to also make sure that since 23 you're coming into the SHU to work as 24 lieutenant -. Would that have been their 25 responsibility to pass that message on to you EFTA00058641

121 1 too? 2 3 : Yes. : Okay. 4 : And did you say you were 5 unaware that the range camera in the SHU was 6 down? 7 : That is correct? 8 : And whose responsibility 9 would it have been -? Would the people working 10 in the SHU known that it was down? 11 : So if you're in the SHU, you 12 don't know that the cameras are inoperable. 13 Unless like it's broken like you see a crack. 14 But just if it looks like a camera, you don't 15 know if it's inoperable. So if the Facilities 16 responsibly to fix the cameras. Now if you're 17 in the control center, and you see a camera 18 out, then you notify the (Indiscernible 19 *01:29:09). 20 : And if you're in 21 facilities and you're told that the camera is 22 out, about how quickly should that camera be 23 fixed? 24 : I'm not sure what the 25 timeframes are. But you know, certain things, EFTA00058642

122 1 I don't know if a SHU camera takes priority 2 over a general population camera. I don't' 3 know. But work orders have to be submitted. 4 You know staff have to be around. So you know, 5 it just really depends on what the job is. 6 : Okay. And do you know if 7 anybody in facilities specifically would be 8 responsible for doing it? 9 Well Facilities is a big crew 10 of individuals. So whoever they designate to 11 fix the camera. 12 : Who -? 13 : It could be anybody. 14 : Okay. Anything else? 15 : Did you see any maintenance 16 happing with the cameras during that time? Any 17 crews coming in there to fix the cameras? 18 Anything like that? 19 : I mean it's a prison. I mean 20 everyone works on everything. You know what 21 I'm saying? 22 : Okay. 23 : But do I recall like 24 Facilities being in SHU that day? I can't tell 25 you that. Yes or no because I really just EFTA00058643

123 1 don't remember. You know what I'm saying? 2 : Now do you find anything 3 suspicious with the death of Epstein yourself? 4 Like the fact, you know, different counts, 5 cameras down, things like that? 6 : No. 7 : No? So what is your 8 opinion on the matter? 9 : I really don't have an 10 opinion. I just feel like you know I come to 11 work. I try to do my job the best way I can. 12 You know. My goal is to come in, do what I 13 need to do, go the extra mile, and just go home 14 in one piece. Like I'm not -. I don't focus 15 on specific inmates and what their crime is. I 16 treat everybody with respect. And I just want 17 to go home. 18 : Sure. 19 : So. 20 : And like do you think 21 somebody dropped the ball here? Do you think 22 that there's somebody that's responsible in 23 this matter? From the limited information you 24 know. Or do you think it's -? 25 : Are you asking me my opinion? EFTA00058644

124 1 : From but like an educated 2 opinion based upon what we've talked about and 3 what you've been able to gather. And working 4 there. Being on duty that August 9th. 5 Mm-hmm. Sure. I mean in my 6 honest opinion, I do think that some mistakes 7 were made. Some honest mistakes were made on 8 certain individuals' part. Absolutely. 9 : Okay 10 : I mean it's clear that 11 mistakes were made. You know. It's proof is 12 there that mistakes were made. 13 : Sure. Now if the 4:00 14 p.m., 10:00 p.m., 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., 5:00 15 a.m. counts weren't conducted -. 16 : If they weren't? 17 : If they weren't. 18 : Okay. 19 : How serious do you think 20 that is? 21 22 23 I get paid to count inmates. : Right. So if I'm not counting 24 inmates, I should just stay home. 25 : Okay. So that is like EFTA00058645

125 1 : Counts is, that's the primary 2 reason why we're correctional officers. 3 : Okay. 4 : Are to account for inmates. 5 : Okay. I like it. That's 6 a good statement. And what about rounds? If 7 the rounds weren't conducted. Same? 8 9 10 Absolutely. : Okay. Rounds are equally as 11 important. Absolutely. 12 : Alright. 13 : Are you aware of any policy 14 violations or things like that at the MCC? 15 : No. 16 : That's all I have. 17 : Anything else you want to 18 -? Did you ask her about the pills and stuff 19 like that? 20 : Yeah. 21 : Anything else that you 22 know that he had that he shouldn't have had? 23 : No. 24 : Okay. Anything else you 25 want to add? EFTA00058646

126 1 : No. 2 : Okay. It is 4:47 p.m. on 3 Monday June 14, 2021. This is Senior Special 4 Agent and I am turning off 5 the recorder. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00058647

127 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00058648

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