LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 observation." When he received his pack 2 number, do you know if it was active, and was 3 he able to make phone calls with it? 4 : That, I don't know. That, 5 only unit team would know. 6 : Do you know around what 7 time the SHU meeting would have been held? 8 : Thursdays. Thursdays, at 9 that time, they say that my meetings have 10 changed with different -- 11 : Sure. 12 every warden changes it. 13 : And what time -- 14 I believe they -- 15 : -- did you work? 16 were in the morning. 17 Like, around 9:00. 18 : Okay. 19 : Like, 9:00. 20 : So, if around, like, 21 3:00, 3:30, the Marshals sent an email saying 22 that his cellmate was going to be transferred, 23 that wouldn't have been discussed at that SHU 24 meeting? 25 : Hmm-mm. EFTA00058785

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 : And did you know anything 2 about any emails -- 3 : No. 4 : -- regarding -? 5 : And I didn't know the inmate 6 was The inmate -. I didn't know that he 7 went to court that day, or anything. I was not 8 even in town. 9 : Right. I'm saying the 10 day before -- 11 : Yeah. 12 : -- on August 8th, there 13 was emails that were sent from the U.S. Marshal 14 Service, saying that his celimate Reyes was 15 going to be transferred to another institution. 16 I was just wondering if that was at all 17 discussed -- 18 : No. Not that I -- 19 : -- that wasn't discussed. 20 : -- and I, likely, I don't 21 know. Yeah. I was -. Huh. I don't remember 22 hearing that at all. 23 : Okay. 24 : Because that would have been 25 EFTA00058786

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 103 : Even after the fact? : -- that would been something 3 that, you know, the lightbulb kind of would 4 have went on. 5 : Sure. 6 : I was pretty shocked to find 7 out that he didn't have a cellmate. 8 : Right. 9 : After he killed himself. 10 That was the first question I asked. When I 11 was away, and I was went to and the 12 times difference was off, and my flight was 13 delayed. I had slept for, like, two hours. it 14 was very strange. I went into the restroom, 15 you know how you bring your phone? I know, 16 TMI. I pressed my phone, and all these alerts 17 came on, and everyone was texting me, and then, 18 I saw that he had hung himself, and I was just, 19 like, how could that happen? And the first 20 thing, when I called my associate warden, the 21 first thing I asked is, did he have a cellmate? 22 Because that was the first thing that came in 23 my mind. And she was, like, no. 24 : What -? So -- 25 : So -. EFTA00058787

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 : -- who was this? 2 : I called 3 : And what did she say 4 about that? 5 : You know, she just said no. 6 And then, I was just, like, I started, like, 7 crying, because I was, like, why? Like -. 8 : And did she respond to 9 where his cellmate was? 10 : She didn't. She was, like, I 11 don't know, . You know, this was all 12 just that morning. 13 : Right. 14 : I mean, she was probably, you 15 know, very upset, too. And that was it. I 16 mean, later on, I found out what happened, 17 which was that his cellmate went to court. He 18 was -- 19 : And so -- 20 : -- bonded out, and that they 21 didn't replace the cellmate with him. 22 • -- so, that is not 23 accurate information. So, who told you that he 24 went to court and bonded out? 25 : That was later on. I don't EFTA00058788

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 remember the person who told me that. 2 : But someone told you he 3 actually went to court, and not transferred to 4 a different institution? 5 : That's what I had heard. 6 : Okay. 7 : That he had gone to court, 8 and then he was That might not be accurate, 9 though. He was bailed out, or he wasn't, 10 didn't come back. 11 : Okay. 12 : That's what I had heard. 13 : Sure. But you don't 14 remember where you heard that from? 15 : Hmm-mm. 16 : Okay. 17 : Well, just to clarify, I 18 think you mentioned it already. There was an 19 email that came up the day before, from the 20 Marshals, on August 8th, in the afternoon, that 21 stated that he was being transferred - 22 was being transferred - to another facility. 23 He wasn't going to court. So, that morning, he 24 would, he wasn't going to court. He was 25 actually transferred out to another facility. EFTA00058789

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Okay. Okay. So -- : Now, if an email like that 106 3 came out, whose responsibility would it have 4 been to make those notifications up, hey, 5 listen, is now gone? 6 : I mean, everybody reviews 7 that. I mean, the captain's review that log. 8 The warden. The executive staff. I mean, I 9 guess they would all see that. 10 : Would psychology have the 11 court production list? 12 : I don't always review the 13 court production list. No. 14 : Yeah. No. You weren't 15 even there. 16 : No. Yeah. 17 : I'm just saying -- 18 : No. 19 : -- like, on, like, on the 20 9th, I guess there would have been a court 21 production list that would have said 22 WAB, With All Belongings. 23 : Right. I mean, I don't have 24 access to that. Some of my staff have that 25 correctional services box. EFTA00058790

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Mm-hmm. : And they do review it, 197 3 sometimes. But I'm not so sure we reviewed it, 4 anybody in my department. 5 : Yeah. And again, I know 6 you weren't even -- 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- there, but so, should 9 have someone reviewed that? 10 : That's not something that we 11 did on a regular basis. 12 : Okay. 13 : You know, we - custodial wise 14 - we don't manage hands-on like that. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : As much. Like, we're not 17 looking all the time. I think now, since this 18 event happened, we might become more involved 19 with that. And review those things. Like, 20 when I get the Marshal's list, I was, I look to 21 make sure they don't have any histories of 22 things, or there is a no Marshal's notices. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : More so than ever now, 25 because, you know, we are hyper alert. EFTA00058791

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 108 : Sure. : But as psychologists, that is 3 not something that is our job to review, and 4 then compare it to the SHU list, and make sure 5 everybody -- 6 : Absolutely. 7 : -- is cell, you know, that is 8 not something we do. 9 : So, when was listed 10 as WAB, and was removed from the institution on 11 the count numbers and everything - - 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : -- should someone have 14 notified psychology? Now, this isn't Epstein. 15 : Right. 16 : This is his cellmate. 17 : Right. 18 19 : I don't know so much as 20 notified us, but at least made - or I would 21 think - someone would make arrangements to say, 22 well, this guy is coming out, we've got to get 23 someone in with Epstein. There would be no 24 need to call psychology. Unless Epstein was 25 demonstrating any psychological issues, because EFTA00058792

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 we were -- 2 : Okay. 3 -- following him as needed, 4 and during our weekly rounds, anyway. So, if 5 he displayed, if he didn't display any mental 6 health problems, they probably wouldn't just 7 call us. 8 : So, were there any 9 problems, as you see them, that no one notified 10 anyone in your department that was gone? 11 : Well, the only problem is, if 12 they had planned on housing Epstein alone, and 13 not replacing then we should have been 14 consulted, and spoken to about, do we think 15 that is a good idea? 16 : Right. 17 : So, that is 18 : But -. 19 : -- but that whole - not 20 : But that was never 21 changed -- 22 : -- not likely -- 23 : -- so, he was supposed to 24 be housed with another cellmate -- 25 : Yes. EFTA00058793

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 : -- so, the fact that his 2 cellmate was gone, and he is supposed to be 3 housed with a cellmate, should have they -? 4 Should someone have contacted psychology to let 5 you know this cellmate is gone, we need to get 6 another cellmate in there? Is that something 7 that you should be a part of, or is that 8 something that was just custody? 9 : That is mainly custody. 10 : Okay. 11 : That is mainly custody. Now, 12 things are a little different. I mean, again, 13 things are put into place. That may not have 14 been in place before. Things we may not have 15 been as involved with. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : We have become more involved 18 with. Because of lessons learned. So, now, 19 when they house anybody alone, they let us 20 know, do you recommend this? Like I was 21 telling you, there is a sheet. Do you 22 recommend this? And we always say no. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : I tell my staff, never 25 recommend a single cell. Like, if we think EFTA00058794

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 someone is going to be single celled, we are 2 notified. Oh, this person is going to be -. 3 , come sign this, this form. But 4 before, we didn't do that. Okay, when Epstein 5 was there, we did not do that. 6 : Okay. 7 : If they had a plan to put him 8 by himself, we would have been notified. The 9 fact his cellmate was leaving, we wouldn't have 10 been notified, unless the intention was not to 11 replace him with somebody else. Because the 12 intention was always to keep him in the SHU 13 with a cellmate. 14 : Now -- 15 : I think custody's intention 16 were, too. 17 : -- as far as people 18 : It should have been. 19 : -- that worked in the SHU 20 staff -- 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- or, for instance, 23 anybody in custody, do you think there is ever 24 an excuse, especially in this specific instance 25 with Epstein, that for people to say, we didn't EFTA00058795

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 know he was supposed to have a cellmate. Is 2 that - do you believe that that is an excuse? 3 Or a reason, I should say. Not an excuse. And 4 this is not, I'm not talking about psychology 5 now. 6 : Right. 7 : What I'm talking about is 8 custody or -. 9 : No. I know what you are 10 saying. I mean, it comes from management and 11 it goes down. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : You see what I'm saying? So, 14 as far as I knew, the lieutenant up there, as 15 far as what he had shared with me, is that he 16 let the officers know. And that there was a 17 sign up there, from what I understand, on their 18 desk, that said he had to have a cellmate. 19 Okay? 20 : Now, did you ever see a 21 sign? 22 : I did not see that sign, 23 because I don't go behind that desk. 24 : Sure. 25 : When I go. So -- EFTA00058796

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Because we knew that 2 there was a sign stating that they had to do 3 rounds on Epstein. It was a big orange sign. 4 But -- 5 : Okay. 6 : -- we have never come 7 across signs saying that he had to have a 8 cellmate. Aside from the very first day -- 9 : Right. 10 : I think -- 11 : Right. 12 : -- that he was actually 13 housed with Reyes. 14 : Right. But I mean, that is 15 something that is monitored by the SHU 16 lieutenant, and the operations lieutenant. 17 They were aware because the captain was aware, 18 and sits in executive staff. 19 : Sure. 20 : And the captain is under the 21 warden, and the warden would have wanted him to 22 have a cellmate. 23 : Right. 24 : A 100 percent. 25 : Absolutely. EFTA00058797

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 : And supported our 2 recommendation for him to have a cellmate. So, 3 where the ball was dropped, I'm not 100 percent 4 sure. But I know executive staff were aware, 5 and I know that was a strong recommendation on 6 our part. Whether the officer's, whether it 7 went down the chain, that, I will not know 8 because I am not in custody. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : How -- 11 : But didn't you say -- 12 how they advised them, you 13 know, the morning of their shift, this is what 14 you need to do. I don't know. 15 : Isn't it something, 16 though, that you guys discuss, or psychology 17 discusses during training, saying that, hey -- 18 : Well, yeah. 19 : -- inmates that are at 20 risk for suicide need to have, if they are 21 coming off -- 22 : Oh, absolutely. 23 : -- suicide observation. 24 So, that is where I mean -- 25 : That is where -- EFTA00058798

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 : -- by, like -- 2 : -- like, the yearly training. 3 I mean, you would think, you know, with the 4 yearly training, with the annual training, with 5 the SHU, there is also a SHU training, a 6 quarterly training that I teach suicide 7 prevention. So, I teach suicide prevention 8 quarterly, to SHU staff. Where I have a slide 9 show that talks about the cellmate, and the 10 need for the cellmate. So -- 11 : What about during their 12 annual refresher training? Is it also 13 discussed? 14 : Yeah. Also. Yes. So -- 15 : So -. 16 : -- it's quarterly and annual. 17 : And you say that same 18 thing during the annual training? 19 : Yes. 20 : Okay. So, not only are 21 the SHU staff getting it in their quarterly 22 training, but every staff is getting it in the 23 annual training. 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058799

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 116 : Everybody. : So, that is what I mean 3 by, is there ever an excuse, saying that we 4 didn't think he needed one? If they receive 5 this training, shouldn't have they known 6 : Right. And also, I don't 7 know, I mean, he was a high-profile inmate. 8 think everybody was aware of that. 9 : Okay. 10 : So 11 : So, do you -- 12 if he didn't have a 13 cellmate, they would know, even if they thought 14 he wasn't supposed to, they would know that he, 15 they should be rounding every half an hour, and 16 checking on, particularly a high-profile 17 inmate. 18 : Now, does -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- every single staff 21 member of MCC, regardless if custody or not, do 22 they take that annual refresher training? 23 : Yes. 24 : So, R&D -- 25 : They are required. EFTA00058800

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- you know -- 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. 4 : They are required. 5 : Okay. Perfect. 6 : Okay. never 7 suggested a cell room with a camera for 8 Epstein, because she wanted him to have a 9 celimate." 10 : I don't make those decisions, 11 as far as who goes on Ten South. Ten South is 12 a high security unit where we house many of the 13 SAMs inmates. I don't know if you are familiar 14 with the SAMs, but they are in Special 15 Administrative Measures. On occasion, we have 16 had high profile inmates, but that is at the 17 discretion of the warden. Not psychology. 18 Whether he wants to house a high-profile inmate 19 up there. We had Bernard Mayta (Phonetic Sp. 20 *01:30:19) up there. We had El Chapo (Phonetic 21 Sp. *01:30:20) up there. We had the Russian 22 arms dealer up there for a while. So, we have 23 had people there. But the warden - and I don't 24 know why, because I was not in those meetings - 25 decided that he was not going to place him in EFTA00058801

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 Ten South. So, if you are not going to be in 2 Ten South, you are going to have a cellmate. 3 You know, as far as I am concerned. But I did 4 not -. I was not -. It was not up to me 5 whether he be placed on Ten South and a camera. 6 : Was that ever -- 7 : My recommendations were not 8 sought. 9 : -- yeah. I was going to 10 say, was it ever -- 11 : No. 12 : -- even discussed with 13 you? 14 : No. 15 : Okay. 16 : It was told. It wasn't 17 discussed. 18 : What was told? I'm 19 sorry. 20 : That he was not going on Ten 21 South. 22 : But that's what I mean. 23 Did Ten South even come up in discussion? 24 : Just that he wasn't going to 25 be housed there. EFTA00058802

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 119 : Okay. : That the warden had decided. 3 I was informed by legal. And I said, oh -- 4 : And when were you 5 informed that? 6 : Earlier -- 7 : Was that before? 8 : -- earlier in his 9 incarceration. 10 : Okay. So, while he was 11 alive? 12 : Yes. 13 : Okay. So, at the end -- 14 : Yeah. Earlier in his 15 incarceration, I received a phone call that he 16 wasn't going to be housed in Ten South, that it 17 was decided, by the warden, that he wasn't 18 going to put him up there. So, when I was 19 being told that, knowing if he was going to be 20 on Nine South, then I would say certainly 21 suggest a cellmate. But I would have had no 22 problem him being on a camera in Ten South. 23 : Would you have a 24 preference? From Ten South or Nine South? 25 : If I was asked, I would have EFTA00058803

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 preferred, I would have said Ten South because 2 I had been there for so long, and had seen so 3 many high-profile inmates up there, and being 4 on a camera 24/7. 5 : So, you said psychology 6 always recommends a celimate, but in this 7 instance, you would actually recommend him 8 being housed alone with a camera on him? 9 : I think having a celimate is 10 a good thing, but when somebody is this high- 11 profile on other levels, in retrospect, it 12 would have probably been not a bad idea. 13 : So, in retrospect, and 14 obviously, we can all Monday morning -- 15 : Yes. 16 : -- quarterback. 17 : Yes. 18 : And unfortunately -- 19 : Yes. 20 : -- that is what we are 21 doing. 22 : Yes. 23 : But, like -- 24 : Yes. 25 : -- at the time, do you EFTA00058804

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 believe that you would have thought that Ten 2 South would have been more appropriate over 3 Nine South? 4 : I don't really want to say 5 because -- 6 : Sure. 7 : I don't make those 8 decisions. 9 : No. 10 : I mean -- 11 : But you weren't 12 consulted? They 13 : I wasn't consulted. 14 : -- no one told you. 15 : I was told. So, once that 16 happened, then of course, I was going to 17 suggest he have a cellmate. 18 : Okay. But it was the 19 warden's call, as far as you know? 20 : As far as I know. That's what 21 I was told by legal. Which was the warden has 22 decided he will not be on Ten South. They are 23 going to house him on Nine South with 24 Tartaglione. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058805

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 : Let me finish that -- 2 : Yes. 3 -- (Indiscernible *01:33:20). 4 That's the last paragraph. "Rooms with cameras 5 aren't always perfect due to the guard having 6 to maintain a constant eye on the camera 7 screen. She noted she has never gone to 8 attorney conference for any other patients or 9 inmates. She believes MCC psychological 10 services did all they could for Epstein. And 11 ultimately, the lack of a cellmate, and under 12 staffing contributed to his death. Three 13 suicide risk assessments were completed on 14 Epstein, which is unusual. One of those was 15 completed due to a judge's order." Is it 16 normal for a judge to request a psychological - 17 18 : It is not uncommon, 19 especially when the judge knew he had been on 20 watch before. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : So, I think, I don't think he 23 was ordered the first time, to be placed on 24 watch. I think it -. I don't remember which 25 time it was that the judge ordered it. But EFTA00058806

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 judges will, if there is, if they have ever 2 been on suicide watch in the past, when they 3 leave a court proceeding. If it was the time 4 that he was denied the bail, I don't know which 5 was the time that the judge ordered it. 6 : So, your -. 7 : Would your notes say when 8 it was? 9 : Possibly. Possibly. 10 : Possibly. 11 : Yeah. 12 : So, you don't think it 13 was the first time, though? 14 : I thought the first time I 15 did it precautionary. I don't know if it had 16 the judge's order. 17 : Now, when you say there 18 are three risk - suicide risk assessments were 19 included, completed on Epstein. 20 : Yes. 21 : Or Epstein. When he 22 first came on, when he, on July 23rd, what was 23 the third? 24 : I think that is when he came 25 back and was denied the bail. EFTA00058807

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 : And do you think that was 2 probably the one that the judge -? Because 3 obviously, you do it when they come on, right? 4 And then, you do it if they try to attempt 5 suicide. 6 : Or maybe the judge -. I 7 don't know if it was the first time. Maybe it 8 was the first time. Because I think the second 9 time was Dr. Which I really 10 complimented her on. I think she did it out of 11 precaution, because of what happened in court. 12 : Okay. And that was 13 : I think she did it on her own 14 instinct. Not because she was told to. 15 : Okay. 16 : Wait. I have an event that 17 took place on August -- 18 : Okay. 19 : -- August 1st. It looks like 20 the correctional systems received a form from 21 the U.S. Marshal Service, the previous day 22 stating that Epstein had reported suicidal 23 tendencies. I guess he went to court. And he 24 reported suicidal tendencies. So, the Marshal 25 Service reported that to correctional systems, EFTA00058808

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 and correctional systems notified that to 2 psychological observations. Psychs. 3 : That was August 1st. 4 : Do you believe that might be 5 the third time? 6 : That would have been, 7 like, the day after he came off of -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- psych observation. 10 : Right. And they always put 11 suicidal tendencies on every single one of 12 them. So, I am thinking, because he was just 13 coming off watch, he might have said, I was on 14 watch. 15 : All right. So, that is - 16 17 : But I don't -. 18 : -- you think the Marshals 19 do this frequently? 20 : Yes. 21 : This isn't -- 22 : They all say -- 23 : -- that wasn't 24 suicidal tendencies. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058809

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 : And there, it's, they all say 2 the same thing. 3 : All right. So, that 4 wasn't abnormal that they wrote that on August 5 1st? 6 : Not if he had recently been 7 taken off of watch, and they were aware of 8 that. 9 : Okay. 10 : Okay. 11 : But you don't know what 12 the third instance was, with -? Because we 13 have, again -- 14 : One was when he first came 15 into jail. 16 : -- right. 17 : Remember, we did, we had him 18 on -- 19 : Yup. 20 -- and he was mad. The 21 second time, I believe was when, maybe when the 22 Marshals -. I don't know. I don't know. 23 : So, we know the two. 24 : Yeah. 25 : I'm just trying to -- EFTA00058810

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 : The third one -- 2 : to figure -. 3 was when he had, when he 4 actually had the -- 5 : Yeah, yeah, no 6 -- Marshals -- 7 : I know. They are my 8 two that I know. Is when he first came on, 9 July 23rd. 10 : And I think the other one was 11 when he came back from court. 12 : On the August 1st? 13 : Yeah. I think so. I have to 14 look. It might be. I have to look at my 15 notes. 16 : Okay. 17 : But those were the three 18 times. 19 : Yeah. No. Because in 20 your report, it kind of - because obviously, it 21 was probably taking so long - it kind of jumps 22 really quickly from July 30th to basically the 23 end. 24 : Okay. 25 : So, that was just -. So, EFTA00058811

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 I was wondering -- 2 : Okay. 3 : -- if we were missing 4 something there, and that sounds like maybe 5 that is what we were missing. 6 : Okay. If you wanted me to 7 look at my notes, I could do that. 8 : This. Do you know? Because 9 I think -- 10 : I'll just -- 11 that will help you. 12 : -- real quickly cover 13 this with you. I think we already did. This 14 was the 302 with ? Who 15 is that? 16 : She is the 17 that removed him from watch the 18 first time, and stepped him down to psych ops. 19 : Okay. So, in part of her 20 302, we're just going to cover this quickly. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Just because we're 23 running out of time. It says, " stated 24 psychological observation allowed Epstein to 25 possess hygiene products, two novels, to attend EFTA00058812

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 his legal visits, and to shower." And as we 2 already stated, he was authorized legal visits 3 while he was on observation. 4 : Okay. All right. 5 : Yeah. 6 : So, she did those 7 authorizations. 8 : Okay. 9 : After she took him off. 10 : Okay. So, and then, it 11 says, and that part says, " stated she 12 discussed the decision to step down Epstein 13 with and associate warden 14 ." Now, when she says, " stated she 15 discussed the decision to step down Epstein 16 with and associate warden 17 ," do you know which step down she is 18 talking about? Is she talking about watch to 19 observation? That's what -- 20 : Yes. 21 : -- okay. Rather than 22 observation to SHU? 23 : Correct. 24 : Okay. And with associate 25 warden , is that a normal thing EFTA00058813

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 that she would discuss that decision? She 2 would discuss that with an associate warden? 3 Is that normal? 4 : Yes. I mean, maybe 5 gave her a call. Maybe she gave 6 a call, just because he was who he was. 7 We don't do it with every single inmate. We 8 send out a notification to, like, all executive 9 staff. And every day, on who is on watch, he 10 was removed from watch. An average inmate, 11 maybe they wouldn't have had a discussion. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : Maybe it was because it was 14 Epstein. 15 : And this is where 16 : Yeah. 17 : -- it goes into the 18 Do you have any knowledge that around this 19 time, executive staff, or anybody at the 20 institution, was contacted by either the 21 attorneys or the judge, saying he needs to be 22 taken off of suicide watch, and put to 23 psychological observation, so the attorney 24 visits may -? 25 : We never got a call like EFTA00058814

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that. 2 : No? Okay. 3 : Yeah. 4 : And you don't know that 5 mentioned that to you guys? 6 : No. 7 : Okay. 8 : Not that I know of. 9 : Okay. It says, "- 10 stated both and concurred with her 11 determination regarding Epstein. 12 stated, `I made the decision with the consent 13 of and .'" Is that correct? 14 : Right. I mean, she came and 15 discussed it with me. And gave me all of the 16 reasons she felt he was written to be stepped 17 down. 18 : Great. 19 : I have a few follow up 20 questions. 21 : So, this is the very end. 22 : This is the very end. 23 : Sorry. 24 : It's okay. 25 : That's okay. EFTA00058815

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 : It's taking longer than 2 we expected. 3 : It's okay. 4 : When inmate was chosen 5 to be Epstein's cellmate after he was brought 6 back to the SHU, do you know who was involved 7 in that decision-making? 8 : Executive staff, most likely. 9 Or correctional staff. Probably the captain. 10 The captain and the AW over programs. 11 : And do you think that 12 everyone, in terms of captain, the lieutenants, 13 and even the SHU staff would have known who 14 was, that he was Epstein's cellmate? 15 : I mean, I would hope that was 16 discussed. But again, I don't know if it was 17 discussed with them. But the captain should 18 have passed it onto the lieutenants, and the 19 lieutenants should have passed it to the staff. 20 : And based on the 21 recommendation, as you mentioned, from your 22 office and also through the chain of command, 23 they should - everyone should have known that 24 Epstein needed a cellmate? 25 : Yes. EFTA00058816

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 : And if everyone knew Epstein 2 needed a cellmate, they should have technically 3 also known that his cellmate was 4 : I would think so. 5 : Okay. 6 : I would hope so. 7 : And when they came up the, 8 came up with the name, with the list of names 9 to place as a cellmate for Epstein, did they 10 have other names also chosen? Or just 11 Hmm. That, I don't know. 12 : Okay. You are not aware? 13 : Because I didn't make those 14 decisions. 15 : Do you know if there -- 16 : At the time. 17 : -- was a plan, if he was 18 to leave, someone else would go into his place? 19 : I don't know that. 20 : Okay. That was a custody 21 22 : Yes. 23 : -- decision? 24 : Determination. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058817

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 : Do know if he was prescribed 2 any medications? Epstein was prescribed any 3 medications? 4 : I would, again, have to see 5 his chart. 6 : Okay. 7 : I don't -- 8 : Not that -. 9 : I don't remember. I don't 10 think so. 11 : Okay. 12 : I mean, from psychiatry. 13 : I want to show -- 14 : I don't remember. 15 : -- we will jump into 16 that. 17 : Yeah. 18 : Just in a couple of 19 minutes. 20 : I just had a quick question. 21 You mentioned that he told you the first time 22 that he had a bail hearing. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : Do you recall him mentioning, 25 in your last meeting with him on August 8th, EFTA00058818

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 that he was scheduled for another bail hearing? 2 : I don't recall. 3 : He didn't mention that? 4 Okay. 5 : I don't recall. He may have. 6 : Okay. 7 : He may have. I know he was 8 trying to get several hearings, so it is very 9 possible he did. 10 : So, what we have here is an 11 after-action review. It was conducted by the 12 Bureau of Prisons. 13 : Yes. 14 : And I'm going through some of 15 the noted -. 16 : Have you seen this? 17 : Hmm-mm. 18 : No. Okay. 19 : Basically, do you know what 20 an after-action review is? 21 : Yes. I do. 22 : Okay. So, this was done by 23 the team that was sent down to do on running 24 Mr. Epstein's death. And maybe the -- 25 : Immediately after their EFTA00058819

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 death. 2 : -- immediately after. 3 : Okay. 4 : There is a note. "On July 5 9th, 2019, at 12:35, health services completes 6 a history and physical for inmate Epstein. 7 This assessment was done in lieu of an intake 8 screening, which should have been conducted 9 within 24 hours of arrival." It looks like he 10 arrived on July 6th, but the intake screening 11 wasn't done for him. 12 : That's medical. 13 : That's medical. Okay. 14 : We did it the next day. We 15 do them within 24 hours. 16 : Okay. "On July 18th, 30-day 17 psychology reviews are conducted for the entire 18 SHU population. Inmate Epstein was not in the 19 SHU at the time due to an attorney visit. The 20 review was never conducted." 21 : He was probably seen in 22 attorney conference, but it wasn't conducted if 23 he wasn't in the SHU at the time. 24 : Should they have followed - 25 psychology - have followed up? EFTA00058820

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I would have to see my 2 records. 3 : Okay. 4 : To see if there was a reason, 5 or if we put in a note, subsequently. 6 : Understood. And you said, 7 the notification by the U.S. Marshal Service on 8 August 1st, you said that would be routine, if 9 he came off of suicide watch or psychological 10 observation, went to court, and they saw that, 11 they would normally make a routine 12 notification? 13 : They often do. Yes. 14 : Okay. 15 : Unless they are not privy to 16 it. You know? But if they are, they would, to 17 cover everything. 18 : But you don't know -- 19 : Yeah. 20 : -- anything specifically 21 he was doing on August 1st, that would have 22 caused them to make a note? 23 : No. 24 : Okay. 25 : Now, I don't have these EFTA00058821

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 documents in here, to show you, but it was 2 flagged that, "The psychology intake screening 3 contains errors in identifying details. Inmate 4 Epstein is referred to as a black inmate, and a 5 different inmate's name is used within the 6 report." 7 : Yes. One of the 8 psychologists made an error. Perhaps. It was 9 a template-ish error. I don't know. 10 : Okay. 11 : To be honest, it was probably 12 a template error. She was probably writing it 13 quickly, and when she proofread it, she didn't 14 catch it. 15 : Okay. "There -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- there are errors within 18 the risk of sexual abusiveness report, such as 19 referencing an inaccurate program statement, 20 and noting a history of prior prison sexual 21 predation." 22 : Okay. Again -- 23 : (Indiscernible *01:44:50)? 24 : -- again, that is a 25 checklist. It was probably a typo on the EFTA00058822

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 checklist. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : By the psychologist. It was 4 a seasoned psychologist. I don't read every 5 single note that goes into the record. The 6 only time I read every single note is when 7 somebody is a probationary psychologist, and 8 unlicensed. 9 : And who was -- 10 : Then I will -- 11 : -- the psychologist? 12 : -- the psychologist at the 13 time was Dr. 14 . Okay. 15 : And I just think they were 16 typos. Looking back and having a conversation 17 with her, they were typos, but she is a 18 seasoned psychologist, a forensic psychologist, 19 and I couldn't possibly read every note that 20 goes in the record. Or else I would never 21 sleep. But I read, you know, like I said, if 22 they are unlicensed, on probationary, then I 23 read all of the notes that go into the record. 24 : So, it is not that 25 didn't do the intake properly. EFTA00058823

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 It was just, it was a format that she probably 2 used. 3 : Yes. 4 : Okay. Now 5 : Definitely. 6 : -- there is another incident, 7 "July 16th, 12:48 p.m., inmate Epstein is seen 8 by psychology in the presence of his attorneys, 9 while conducting a legal visit. This visit 10 recommended no follow up. This visit was at 11 the request of inmate Epstein, that was wholly 12 inappropriate. Inmate Epstein attempted to 13 establish guidelines for communication, and 14 bring his attorneys into the fray regarding 15 mental health treatment be provided by the 16 institution. 17 It is not typical for the Bureau of 18 Prisons to provide psychological intervention 19 in the presence of others, nor is it 20 appropriate for an agency psychologist to meet 21 with the inmate attorneys." The summary they 22 put on there is, "On July 16th, 2019, a 23 psychologist met with inmate Epstein in the 24 presence of his attorneys. This visit was done 25 at the request of inmate Epstein, that appears EFTA00058824

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 to have been the purpose of airing grievances 2 with conditions of confinement. 3 This is a highly abnormal event. It is 4 not typical for the Bureau of Prisons to 5 provide psychological intervention in the 6 presence of others, and agency psychologists 7 should not - should neither provide mental 8 health intervention in the presence of others, 9 nor engage legal representation regarding 10 institution operations or conditions of 11 confinement. 12 Although the specifics of what information 13 the psychologists are unknown, any items shared 14 could be viewed as an unauthorized release of 15 information, both regarding inmate Epstein's 16 mental health treatment, and institution 17 operational information." 18 : Okay. 19 : Can you elaborate -? 20 : What is your response to 21 that, I guess? 22 : I wasn't aware -- 23 : Do you agree with it, or 24 -? 25 : -- if one of my EFTA00058825

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 psychologists, or I went up one time, and I 2 think another one of my psychologists went up, 3 it was probably just to see that he was okay, 4 and that he didn't need anything from 5 psychology. So, the intention was to check on 6 him. It wasn't to breach any security, or it 7 wasn't to meet his demands, or anything like 8 that. It was probably because he did spend 9 eight hours up there, and it was more well 10 meaning that we just probably just wanted to 11 see if he had any needs from our department, at 12 that time. Or on that one occasion, he was up 13 there when that psychologist was conducting her 14 rounds in the suicide watch area, and he wasn't 15 there. And she went up there to check on his 16 mental status, to see if he was okay. 17 : Right. 18 : So -. 19 : And who would have that 20 one been? 21 : I think it was Dr. that 22 went up there on one occasion. And I think I 23 went up there on one occasion. That's when he 24 made that comment to me. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058826

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 : But -. 2 : Now, so, what is your 3 : I did not share -- 4 do you agree -- 5 anything with his 6 attorneys. He stepped out of the room. Like, 7 the attorneys were sitting at the table. And 8 then, there is the door, and he walked up 9 towards the door. And I just said, you know, I 10 think when I went up there, you know, are you 11 okay? Have you been eating and sleeping okay? 12 I didn't discuss any intimate details of his 13 childhood, or anything like that. It was kind 14 of just, like, are you okay? 15 Do you have any thoughts of harming 16 yourself? Have you been eating and sleeping, 17 or do you have any concerns like that. And you 18 could see my notes, it would probably indicate 19 what I did ask him. It was well meaning. I 20 certainly didn't engage. I don't know. I 21 doubt Dr. did, because she is very rigid. 22 And any discourse with his attorney about 23 anything. I think his attorneys may have made 24 a comment to me, but I think I ignored it. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058827

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : But yeah. : So, you -. 144 3 : If that is what they are 4 referring to, you would have to re, you know, 5 show me the contacts, and the context. The 6 contacts, the actual site contacts that they 7 are referring to. 8 : Yeah, they don't 9 : Well. 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- they don't list it on 12 there. 13 : I mean, so - 14 : I mean, those are the only -- 15 : -- two -- 16 : -- two times that we went up 17 there, and that was more well meaning, to check 18 on his mental status. 19 : Sure. 20 It was certainly -. 21 : And not a discussion 22 : So, do you -- 23 with the attorneys. 24 Sorry. 25 : But as -- EFTA00058828

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 No. : -- this is the BOP's 145 3 findings. This isn't on ours. We are just 4 saying -- 5 : Yeah. 6 : -- do you agree with that 7 finding, or do you think that that is 8 inaccurate, the way that they have that? They 9 are saying that you should not have done that? 10 : I would say it is 50/50. I 11 mean, now, in retrospect, if it could be 12 perceived that way, it is probably not the best 13 situation. However, circumstantially, this guy 14 was in the conference room from dawn until 15 dusk. And we felt a need to check on him, to 16 see if he was okay. So -- 17 : What 18 -- I would say we just 19 probably weren't aware that it wasn't a good 20 thing to do. 21 : Okay. 22 : We meant it to be -- 23 : Okay. So, and 24 a good thing. 25 : -- and this prior to his EFTA00058829

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 first suicide attempt, it looks like, on, it 2 says July 16th. 3 : Yeah. 4 : Okay. 5 : So, that was probably just to 6 check on him due to our concerns. 7 : Sure. 8 : In reading that, I probably 9 would not do that ever again. Because it is 10 perceived that way. But we weren't aware that 11 that wouldn't - that that was an unusual 12 circumstance. 13 : Sure. 14 : It doesn't spring upon us 15 frequently. We don't have inmates that have 16 that kind of money to sit in there for nine 17 hours a day. 18 : Okay. 19 : Yeah. 20 : You know? So, that has never 21 happened before. 22 : So, what, in retrospect, 23 I guess, what should have happened? Should 24 have you asked him to be excused, and seen him 25 a private room? EFTA00058830

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 : I guess we could have done 2 that, but that would have interfered with his, 3 and he is paying his attorneys. It is just, 4 would have to probably consult on that further. 5 : Has anyone -- 6 : Because -. 7 : -- spoken with you about 8 this? 9 : No. 10 : Okay. 11 : You just mentioned something. 12 You said it is highly unusual that somebody is 13 sitting in attorney conference for that long. 14 Is that not allowed for him? Was that not 15 allowed for any other inmates? Was he the only 16 inmate who was, that was allowed to? 17 : I think he was the only 18 inmate that had that kind of money. 19 : Yeah. It's -. 20 : Okay. 21 : To pay an attorney for nine 22 hours. 23 : Okay. 24 : To sit in a conference room. 25 You know, usually, they last about an hour. EFTA00058831

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 So, I had never seen that before in all my 2 years in the prisons. But it is not like you 3 can't do it. I guess if you have the money, 4 and the resources to have different attorneys 5 come, to cover your whole day 6 : Okay. 7 : -- then 8 : I just have one more topic, 9 and then it is done. 10 : Okay. 11 : So, were you aware that Mr. 12 Epstein was allowed to make an unmonitored 13 phone call on the evening of August 9th? 14 : No. 15 : So, on August 9th, it looks 16 like he, his pack and PIN was provided to him, 17 but it was never set up. So, he requested a 18 phone call, and it looks like the unit manager 19 took him to the SHU, brought back from attorney 20 conference, and placed him in the shower. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : Plugged it into the legal 24 line. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058832

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 : And he said he wanted to talk 2 to his mother. So, the unit manager dialed out 3 the number. A guy answered the phone. He 4 handed the phone, the phone over to Mr. 5 Epstein. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : And he left. So, Mr. Epstein 8 was allowed to make the phone call. It was not 9 monitored. And what do you think? Do you 10 think that should have ever been allowed? 11 : That is never allowed. That 12 is not allowed. 13 : Do you think that played any 14 part into what happened that night, being the 15 fact that he was allowed to make a phone call, 16 unmonitored, a phone call? Remember, he 17 mentioned that it was to his mother. 18 : Right. 19 : But we learned that his 20 mother has been deceased for a while. 21 : This isn't really for her 22 to answer. 23 : That, I don't know. 24 : So, as far as, this is 25 something that we skipped over in your EFTA00058833

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 interview report, though. It says, "On August 2 8th, 2019, attended the SHU meeting. 3 She couldn't recall all who was there. But 4 noted," - so, this talks about that meeting, 5 and it said that, "Epstein had received his 6 pack number, which allows him to make phone 7 calls, and he asked for his books from 8 psychological observation." So, are you aware 9 that he actually did receive his pack number? 10 Pack and PIN number, so he could actually make 11 calls? 12 : I probably was privy to it, 13 if it was mentioned in the SHU meeting. But 14 that wouldn't have any psychological meaning, 15 other than he could make the calls, and they 16 would bring the phone to his cell, which is 17 what they usually do, and he can make the phone 18 calls. 19 : So, you don't recall if 20 he was actually provided a pack and PIN number 21 or not? 22 : I don't recall. 23 : Okay. 24 : Because I don't set that up 25 or anything. It could have been mentioned in. EFTA00058834

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 the SHU meeting. But that doesn't directly 2 impact mental health services. 3 : Okay. 4 : So. 5 : So, and you don't know if 6 it was actually - not only was he given a pack 7 and PIN number - but you don't know if it was 8 actually set up or not? 9 : That, I don't know. 10 : Okay. Go ahead. 11 : And I don't know if it played 12 a role. 13 : Okay. 14 : You know, I don't know. 15 : That is the last two. 16 : Yeah. Go ahead. 17 : Okay. So, do you think Mr. 18 Epstein took his own life? 19 : Yes. I mean, it would be 20 highly unlikely that he didn't. I can say that 21 psychologists, the difficult thing is that we 22 are psychologists. We are not psychic. But 23 the events leading up to it, too, that period 24 of time, he appeared psychologically stable. 25 But the information that he received, according EFTA00058835

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 to what I heard the night before, and all of 2 that information being unsealed, and him being 3 alone with his thoughts, and thinking that 4 maybe, perhaps he would have to spend the rest 5 of his life in jail, and that all of these 6 high-profile individuals information was going 7 to come out about them. 8 Could he have, at that moment, just felt 9 completely hopeless, and thought of ending his 10 life? Yes. That is very possible. You know, 11 that is very possible. Prior to me leaving, he 12 wasn't given any of this information, and he 13 had a lot of hope, he had a lot of resources. 14 Perhaps he thought, you know, maybe he could 15 cooperate, or get some kind of a deal. I don't 16 know what happened at that meeting. But having 17 been in the prison system as long as I have 18 been, and being a psychologist, sometimes when 19 people get really bad news, and they feel very 20 hopeless, and the opportunity is there. 21 They will take that opportunity. So, yes. 22 It would be highly improbable, you know, the 23 way our prison is set up, that someone could 24 have snuck up there and harmed him, in some 25 way. The way that the tiers are and EFTA00058836

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 everything. So, I think the higher probability 2 is that he did kill himself. 3 : That leads to my second 4 question. The last question. 5 : Yeah. 6 : Do you have any reason to 7 believe that Epstein did not take his own life? 8 : I have no reason to believe 9 he didn't. 10 : Do you have any other follow 11 up questions? 12 : No. Is there anything 13 that we missed, that we should know? 14 : Not that I can think of. 15 Just that, you know, we -. No. Not really. 16 No. 17 : Okay. Great. We can't 18 thank you enough. 19 : Yeah. 20 : So, again, it took longer 21 than we expected, but you were extremely 22 helpful. 23 : Thank you. 24 is the case agent, 25 so if you have any questions or anything -- EFTA00058837

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 : Okay. 2 : -- you can go directly 3 with 4 : Thank you. 5 : Thank you for taking your 6 time. 7 : If there is anything else I 8 can do, or anything I can clarify, with regard 9 to the case, or if you want me to review some 10 notes, if anything wasn't clear, because like I 11 said, I probably, to be more specific, if I had 12 those notes, I would know when the Marshals 13 came in, because it is kind of a blur to me. 14 It has been a few years. It was probably the 15 most traumatic event in my entire career. 16 : Oh, wow. Yeah. 17 : You know? 18 : Sorry to hear that. 19 : So, yeah. 20 : Okay. Well, thank you so 21 much for that. 22 : Thank you. 23 : If anything comes up, or you 24 have anything that you want to share, please, 25 reach out. EFTA00058838

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Yes. Thank you. : Okay. It is currently 3 11:18 a.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. 4 This is Senior Special Agent 5 I am turning off the recorder. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 155 EFTA00058839

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00058840