LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 person could be just popping in, "Everything 2 good? You're good?" That could be somebody's 3 interpretation 4 MR. : That could be their round. 5 MR. : -- of a round. 6 MR. : That could be an interpretation 7 8 MR. : And others - another 9 Lieutenant could go and say, "Hey, I want to 10 conduct a count with you." And another one 11 would say -- 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : -- "No, I'm just going to 14 - I'm going to pop in." 15 MR. : Everybody is different. Yes. 16 MR. : Right. But policy never 17 said they needed to actually put eyes on the 18 inmates just to pop in and say, "Hi." 19 MR. : Yeah. Where does it say it? 20 Show me. Because I -. 21 MR. : That's what I'm asking. 22 MR. : I don't - I never seen it. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : I never seen it. 25 MR. : It's not a gotcha you, EFTA00115999

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 we're asking -. 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : We're literally asking -- 4 MR. : I know. 5 MR. : -- you as the 6 (Indiscernible *01:18:22) -. 7 MR. : I know because you don't know, 8 but I'm telling you, the 30 minute round sheet, 9 right, after, and even before Epstein, you 10 know, they had it - it was, we had them on the 11 ranges so the two can physically, you know, be 12 accurate with, you know, with what you had to 13 write, or whatever. They're printed sheets. 14 Right? The dates change. Some of them are 15 handwritten. Everybody's interpretation of a 16 round is different. I was an officer. I don't 17 forget my roots, so when I make a round, I make 18 a round. 19 MR. : Does policy state what a 20 round consists of? Can I find that in policy: 21 MR. : A 30 minute round? I mean, 22 checking on the inmates. It says in policy, 23 inmates that are in 30 minute - I mean, that 24 are in the continuous lock down situation, all 25 right, want e (Indizccrniblc *01:19:25) to EFTA00116000

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 quote policy, are supposed to be checked on 2 every 30 minutes. Right? And then the special 3 policy says in Special Housing, because they 4 are continuously locked down and technically on 5 morning watch, everybody is supposed to go 6 check on inmates. 7 MR. : That description of rounds, 8 does that apply to a Lieutenant's round or is 9 that something different? 10 MR. : That round applies - it doesn't 11 say, "Lieutenant," it just says that you're 12 supposed to -. 13 MR. : What he's saying is that, 14 Lieutenant rounds, they're doing rounds with 15 their staff members and they can choose to go 16 in and do the inmate rounds if they want. Is a 17 correctional officer round is doing a round of 18 the inmates? 19 MR. : Yeah, correctional officers 20 look at the inmates. So what you want me to do 21 as a supervisor for eight hours is sit with the 22 officer? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm 25 just saying. If it got - see everybody - I got EFTA00116001

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 to go around, see everybody, make sure I don't 2 people - make sure people are awake because if 3 I'm awake, you're awake. Okay, if I'm walking 4 around, I'm up. 5 MR. : We were just trying to get 6 (Indiscernible *01:20:33). 7 MR. : No, no, no. I know. I just - 8 I'm just - I know that's what the policy 9 states. But everybody, like I said, their 10 interpretation of the policy is different, and 11 like myself, I'm checking on inmates. 12 Sometimes when I go in the housing unit, I want 13 to walk down the range. But do I walk down the 14 range of every housing unit? No. 15 MR. : Is it ever acceptable 16 for, you know, even from the midnight to, you 17 know, 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. or midnight until 18 8:00 a.m., ever acceptable for any staff in the 19 SHU to fall asleep? 20 MR. : No, it's not acceptable. 21 MR. : And it's not acceptable 22 even if one staff says, "I'm going to sleep, 23 you stay awake." 24 MR. : No, it's not acceptable. 25 MR. : Okay. Not acceptable. EFTA00116002

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 Great. 2 MR. : Now, we are human. Right? So, 3 on occasion, "Hey, get up, go take a walk." 4 MR. : But if both are -- 5 MR. : Throw some water. 6 MR. : -- both are sitting there 7 falling asleep together, that's not -. 8 MR. : Somebody got - that's - then 9 that's - hey, I can't -. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : You know. It's just like this. 12 I do hospital trips. I can't go to sleep. 13 Okay? Especially if we have one weapon on a 14 hospital trip. So you go to sleep and you got 15 the weapon, I'm dead. Or, we live in a world, 16 now everybody carries a cell phone, cha-ching. 17 MR. : Yep. 18 MR. : So, I just - I stood the watch, 19 I ain't sleeping. Stood the watch. 20 MR. : Sure. You mentioned the 21 files that are printed out on Sundays and then 22 you would, you know, review in the mornings -- 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : -- but you weren't the 25 one that printed them out, on Sundays, they EFTA00116003

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 would. We received information that when 2 Epstein was found on the 10th, they went to get 3 the file and the file didn't really have 4 anything in it. It's pos- with the indication 5 that someone may have taken those files. Do 6 you know anything about that file being -. 7 MR. : I know that that file was there 8 when I left. 9 MR. : Do you know if it had -. 10 MR. : That's all I know. 11 MR. : Do you remember how many 12 documents were in that file? 13 MR. : It was limited. 14 MR. : So it was very little? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Only a few pieces of 17 paper then? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : And was that because if 20 he was placed in the house - the SHU on the 21 30th, there's only one Sunday that went by 22 since he was found, I guess, on a Saturday, the 23 next - there's only one day that would have had 24 information in there? Would that be why it was 25 limited? EFTA00116004

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. : Remember, he was in SHU from 2 the time that he got there, right? He was 3 taken out of SHU, he was placed with a bunkie. 4 He tried to hang himself. He went down, he was 5 on suicide watch. I don't know how long he was 6 on suicide watch. But he was on suicide watch 7 and we got that email. And I got that email, 8 got a call from the Captain, so the Warden. 9 Then I heard from the Warden looking for a 10 bunkie for him. You got to vet them and it's 11 not coming from me, it's coming from the top. 12 Okay. So I said, "All right," so I'm here. 13 was still there, the Warden was still 14 there. It was getting past my time I got to be 15 back in the morning, whatever. Spoke to - when 16 I got word, they said, "We got him a bunkie." 17 Spoke to , he said, "I got it." He 18 stayed overtime that day. So, him, Reyes, was 19 placed with Epstein. Every day, I had an 20 opportunity to speak with him. I - he was on 21 suicide watch. I took him up to attorney 22 conference. While he was in SHU, he would ask 23 me for phone calls. While he was in SHU, he 24 wanted rec or whatever. I said, "You can get 25 rec." Whatever he needed, and it was there EFTA00116005

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 from the institution, he got. Whether it was 2 clothing, tee-shirt and boxers and shower, like 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 everybody else, and he was afforded all the opportunities just like every other inmate. So, I don't know what else you all want to know. MR. : Tcc zhirt,So you said phone calls. So would he get phone calls when he was in the SHU? MR. : He was - you're afforded to get a phone call. MR. : So, whcruhere wouldeve3 you call MR. : When the team gives you -- MR. : Where we gctwould MR. : -- his pin and pad number, or whatever. MR. : Where arc sic getting thewould he be able to call from? MR. : But - huh? MR. : Where arc gcttingwould MR. : On the range. He would get it on the range. MR. : Not in the SHU then? MR. : Yeah, in the SHU. EFTA00116006

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. : That's where you plug it 2 into? 3 MR. : Yeah, plug it in -- 4 MR. : Now, would -- 5 MR. one of the jacks. 6 MR. : -- would they be 7 monitored calls? 8 MR. : Yeah. Absolutely. 9 MR. : And then you like 10 document it -- 11 MR. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : -- in the log book? 13 MR. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : All right. And then 15 MR. : Put it in the log book and then 16 it would be on the computer, you know, if the 17 call went through, whatever, and you can look 18 at the monitored calls. 19 MR. : Back to the file. If 20 anything -- 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : -- that went on in the 23 should that have been documented in the file or 24 placed in the file, would that all be 25 electronically stored as well? So even if it EFTA00116007

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 wasn't printed out, could we -- 2 MR. : Only -. 3 MR. : -- after the fact go in 4 and say, "This is what should have been in the 5 file?" 6 MR. : This is what you could do. 7 This is what you could do. You can go back and 8 ask them for the 583 packet that was created 9 when he first committed suicide. 10 MR. : We have that, sure. 11 MR. : Okay? There's - that's his 12 file. As this AD order, why he was placed in 13 SHU, right? 14 MR. : But didn't you say you -- 15 MR. : And -. 16 MR. : -- document the food and 17 you document all that other stuff? 18 MR. : The 292s, right? If it's not 19 printed, it might be in the system, but once 20 he's removed from the system, his BOP number, 21 don't know what happens after that. 22 MR. : All right. So, point 23 being is if he's no longer in the system, then 24 the file may no longer be in the -. 25 MR. : Yeah. Just like if I go into EFTA00116008

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 SENTRY and I will pull up his number, SENTRY 2 would tell me that he's deceased. 3 MR. : But if he was still in 4 the system, should all the - whatever was in -. 5 MR. : He can't - because SENTRY and 6 BOT4oBER—BOPWare talks, it's live, it's almost 7 like live. 8 MR. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : So the moment an inmate is 10 moved from one housing unit to another housing 11 unit, his picture is taken from that - he's no 12 longer on that housing unit no more. He's on 13 this housing unit. Right? And if he's placed 14 in SHU, the inmate picture still can be on the 15 file, but his location will show that he's 16 housed in SHU. 17 MR. : But will all the 18 documents that were created in, you know, in 19 the SHU, would they all be maintained somewhere 20 in the system? 21 MR. : Well, you could go back, I 22 don't know how long it is, but I know that I 23 had to pull records for an inmate that had left 24 prior to, or whatever. If it was documented, 25 it's probably still there, I don't know. EFTA00116009

LIMITED 1 2 OFFICIAL USE MR. *01:28:17)Alright. : (Indicccrniblo 3 MR. : But it may be in the system. 4 So, but that - it's some way you got to play 5 with the system to go back. It's like post 6 292s or something like that, like when they 7 leave. Unit team can see whatever and can pull 8 it. 9 MR. : You had mentioned that - 10 you were saying that Epstein was always 11 afforded clothing and things like that. 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : So I guess in his cell, 14 he had an abundant amount of linens and 15 clothing in there. 16 MR. : Well, I don't know. 17 MR. : Now who was the one who 18 would provide the clothing? 19 MR. : The officers. 20 MR. : And would they - are they 21 supposed to maintain how much -. 22 MR. : It's supposed to be one for one 23 exchange. 24 MR. : Okay. So, if he's got a 25 lot of that stuff in there, that would be EFTA00116010

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 something to talk to the officers about? 2 MR. : Yeah. And sometimes inmates 3 hide it, you know, under the mattress or 4 whatever, but the officers would have to, you 5 know, they're supposed to shake it down, so. 6 MR. : And that's not something 7 that you were aware of? 8 MR. : What do you mean? 9 MR. : You weren't aware that he 10 had extra linens or clothing? 11 MR. : No, I wasn't aware of that. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : What about, so we 15 recently learned that Epstein was actually in a 16 cell that he wasn't assigned to when he was 17 found. So, about six days before, I think he 18 was moved to a different cell but they never 19 reassigned that cell to him. 20 MR. : Because the cell rotation was 21 they probably did cell rotations. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : Moved him and his bunkie to 24 another cell and thcn didn't key it. 25 MR. : Now, who was responsible EFTA00116011

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 for keying it? 2 MR. : The person that did the cell 3 rotation. 4 MR. : Okay. So it's not like 5 the Officer in Charge or the Lieutenant, it's 6 whoever did the cell rotation is the one that 7 would -. 8 MR. : It's not the Lieutenant. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : It comes up, the next day I 11 check it, 21 day cell rotation. Before I 12 leave, I verify it and make sure that it's 13 done. 14 MR. : So if six days before 15 August 9th, which would put us at like, you 16 know, August 3rd or something, he was moved but 17 the cell was never reassigned to him. Is that 18 something that you would have reviewed? 19 MR. : He was moved when? 20 MR. : We're told six days 21 prior, he was moved, but his - he was located 22 in a cell that wasn't actually assigned to him. 23 So the assumption is that, like you said, it 24 was a cell rotation but they never went and 25 keyed -- you know the cell was never keyed to EFTA00116012

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 him. He was still assigned to a different 2 cell. 3 MR. : I don't know (Indiscernible 4 *01:30:50). 5 MR. : All right. You don't 6 know? 7 MR. : Huh-uh. No. 8 MR. : Because I'm sure, as you 9 can imagine, the conspiracy theorists out there 10 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : -- are going to say like, 13 "Well, he wasn't in the cell he was assigned 14 to?" But you're not aware of that information? 15 MR. : Naw. Huh-uh. 16 MR. : But yet and - whoever - 17 is anyone in charge of the cell rotation or who 18 is -. 19 MR. : Well, the OIC, who - you know, 20 the day watch OIC is in charge, you know, of 21 making sure of cell rotations and things get 22 done. It's printed out daily to see on the 23 paper about cell rotations. Because the region 24 looks at that, you know, if somebody is in the 25 cell past 20 something days - actually, the EFTA00116013

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 Captain is supposed to review and look at that, 2 you know. 3 MR. : But you're -. 4 MR. : But I look at it as well -- 5 MR. : You look at it? 6 MR. : -- as the SHU Lieutenant. 7 Yeah. 8 MR. : And you never noticed it? 9 MR. : If I'm running a roster, huh- 10 uh, no. 11 MR. : You didn't notice that? 12 MR. : Huh-uh. Because, I'm making 13 sure he got a bunkie. That's - if he - if it's 14 two people in the cell, I'm - you know. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : And I get around to checking, 17 you know, it could have been a billion things 18 that I've been doing. 19 MR. : Sure. 20 MR. : You know, I was stretched thin. 21 You can look at those rosters and see how - me, 22 I'm supposed to be the SHU Lieutenant and 23 everywhere I worked. 24 MR. : Okay. And as SHe - no, 25 that's -. EFTA00116014

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Go ahead. 2 MR. : No, no, no. 3 MR. : No. You can answer - I'll 4 answer. 5 MR. : I was just going to say, 6 you're stretched thin. What is your, like, 7 primary function when you're in there? 8 MR. : When I'm in SHU? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : I run the building, *en—from 11 SHU. To, you know, just making sure - I try to 12 make sure that everybody is doing what they're 13 supposed to do. I'm checking on these inmates 14 myself and I'm making sure to keep this - 15 because it's already a stressful environment, 16 so I'm making sure, you know, people are 17 getting showered, you know, I'm making sure, 18 you know, I'm trying to, you know, we didn't 19 have rec for a long time, you know. At that 20 time, we had, you know, two rec officers. 21 Sometimes our rec officers are not there, you 22 know, and we're all helping each other, you 23 know. Showers was every Monday, Wednesday and 24 Friday, you know. So we're trying making sure 25 inmates got, you know, hygiene and things of EFTA00116015

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 that nature is being taken care of. 2 MR. : Okay. Back to that phone 3 call. That is authorized to let inmates in the 4 SHU have phone calls on unrecorded lines? 5 MR. : Have to be approved by the Unit 6 Manager. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : And that's only for legal 9 calls. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : And that has to be 12 MR. : (Indiscernible 13 *01:33:46). 14 MR. : -- you know, a request by an 15 inmate, then approved by the Unit Manager. I 16 don't do unmonitored phone calls. 17 MR. : Oh, I'm sorry. I thought 18 you said that you would allow Epstein to call 19 from the SHU. 20 MR. : No, I said, he would be 21 afforded a phone call, right, and it would be, 22 you know, he would have to have his pin and pad 23 number, not an unmonitored call. I don't do 24 that. 25 MR. : But did he have a pin and EFTA00116016

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 pad number? 2 MR. : I don't know. His unit team 3 should have gave him a pin pad number. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : I don't know if he had it or 6 not. 7 MR. : But I thought -. 8 MR. : He never mentioned that to. 9 MR. : But I thought you said 10 that you would allow him -. 11 MR. : No, I said, he would be 12 afforded. It's a difference. 13 MR. : Because - yeah, you -. 14 MR. : Don't switch the words. He 15 would be afforded, like everybody else that 16 comes to Special Housing, they are afforded a 17 phone call. 18 MR. : So maybe is it wording, 19 because I had that written down too. 20 MR. : No, (Indiscernible 21 *01:34:31) -. 22 MR. : Because I think you said it 23 too. I think that's how -. 24 MR. : Yeah. Because we talked 25 about it. Just, we got to make sure that we're EFTA00116017

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 clear on these things. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : So that's - do you recall 4 Epstein ever calling from the SHU? 5 MR. : I never gave him a phone call. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : All right. 8 MR. : I never seen -- 9 MR. : Did you give this -. 10 MR. : -- an officer give him a phone 11 call. 12 MR. : This is when we talked 13 about, you know, Epstein would want to make -- 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : -- phone calls. He would 16 want to have his clothing -- 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- and stuff like that. 19 MR. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : So, you actually never 21 gave Epstein a call. 22 MR. : I never gave him a phone call. 23 MR. : All right. Because -- 24 MR. : Ever. 25 MR. : I believe that's when EFTA00116018

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 we talked about, what, did you just plug it 2 into the line in the SHU -- 3 MR. : Yeah, that's what -- 4 MR. : -- and you said -. 5 MR. : -- happens but I never gave him 6 a phone call. 7 MR. : All right. 8 MR. : Ever. 9 MR. : And then we talked about, 10 would you just log it in the book? You'd 11 monitor their call. So never - you don't know 12 13 MR. : I never gave him a phone call. 14 MR. : All right. And the 15 clothing, you never gave him extra clothing? 16 MR. : Not - never gave him extra 17 clothing, no. 18 MR. : All right. And you were 19 in - did his cell ever get shook down or 20 checked? 21 MR. : It should have, yeah. 22 MR. : It should have? 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : And at that point, they 25 should have seen that there's a lot of extra EFTA00116019

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 clothing and linens in there? 2 MR. : They shake the cells down. 3 I've seen a lot of extra clothing and stuff 4 laying on the range. 5 MR. : And were you ever present 6 for any Epstein cell shake downs? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : No? 9 MR. : Huh-uh. Well, you know what? 10 I was. I remember one of the officers say, 11 "Oh, he had this in the cell and they took it 12 out." Yeah. 13 MR. : What did he have? 14 MR. : I think it was an extra blanket 15 or something like that. They took it out. 16 MR. : All right. And we he 17 authorized to have like pills and things like 18 that in there? Medication? 19 MR. : Yes. They are authorized - 20 Medical comes up and gives them medication. 21 MR. : Are you aware of any of 22 the staff when you weren't present not 23 conducting counts and rounds -. 24 MR. : Naw. Huh-uh. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00116020

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. : Not on my watch. What? 2 MR. : Should we - so. 3 MR. : Passing over to you. 4 Sorry, do you have a question? 5 MR. : Okay. Yeah. Let's say you 6 were at work on the 9th. You're not, but let's 7 just say you were at work on the 9th. Reyes is 8 taken out sometime between 7:00 a.m., 8:00 9 a.m., he's brought to court. 10 MR. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : MCC wouldn't know the fact 12 that, "Hey, he's not coming back," but somehow 13 14 MR. : They would know after the 5 15 o'clock count !perhaps. 16 MR. : Let's just say, I'm just 17 saying hypothetically. 18 MR. : Uh-huh. When the courts 19 return. 20 MR. : Let's say between 1:00 and 21 2:00 p.m. -- 22 MR. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : -- MCC is notified, "Hey, 24 listen, he's not coming back and he's WAB." 25 MR. : Uh-huh. EFTA00116021

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 MR. : Who would have got notified? 2 It would have came through -. 3 MR. : R&D. 4 MR. : R&D? And R&D would have 5 notified who? 6 MR. : They should have notified the 7 AW or notified their supervisor. 8 MR. : Would they have notified the 9 OIC in the SHU? 10 MR. : It depends on who's the 11 officer, I don't know. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : But they wouldn't be 14 required to let the housing unit 15 MR. : They would -. 16 MR. : whereft they came from? 17 No? 18 MR. : After the court list comes out, 19 or whatever, the count changes on the El. If 20 they get - if the courts kept them, or 21 whatever, so whoever that R&D staff is, I don't 22 know what their protocols are, whatever, but - 23 because it's a whole different department but 24 we all work together. As a Lieutenant, only 25 way I would catch it on - probably on morning EFTA00116022

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 watch or on - if I'm evening watch, when I'm 2 doing my log and I run the 38, the daily change 3 log, and depending on what I'm looking at, I'm 4 going to see who's off my base count. The 5 morning watch Lieutenant is going to write down 6 everybody who left the institution the prior 7 day. 8 MR. : I know. But I'm asking, 9 let's say the notification did come between 10 1:00 and 2:00. 11 MR. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : You are - let's say you were 13 at work -- 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : -- and that notification came 16 down to the SHU and they were notified. 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : If you were at work, what 19 steps would you have taken? 20 MR. : I would have called the Captain 21 and, like, well, you know, his bunkie, you 22 know, has left and I would have let the Captain 23 know that we have to find him a new bunkie -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : -- and if they would, you know, EFTA00116023

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 have somebody. 2 MR. : You were not at work that 3 day, so -- 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : -- who would have been in 6 charge? Which Lieutenant would have been in 7 charge? Would that be 8 MR. : If it's between 9 MR. : Would it be the 10 Operations Lieutenant? 11 MR. : If it was between one and two, 12 depends on - yeah. 13 MR. : If was aware of it, 14 what should he have done? 15 MR. : He should have called Special 16 Housing, "Hey, this guy need a bunkie." 17 MR. : Okay. And -. 18 MR. : But if Epstein was downstairs, 19 nobody wouldn't have known because he's with 20 his attorneys. 21 MR. : But wouldn't have they 22 known the Special Housing Unit was informed 23 that Epstein's bunkie was being removed, 24 wouldn't that queue them in on that when 25 Epstein returns he's not going to have a EFTA00116024

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 bunkie? 2 MR. : That could have - that's 3 possible. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Now let's say there were no 6 notification wheever made - let's just go 7 through the who process. When is the first 8 time they would actually catch the fact that 9 Epstein didn't have a bunkie? 10 MR. : You make rounds, you make a 11 round, "Oh, shit, you're by yourself. Hey, but 12 he need a bunkie." 13 MR. : So any one of the 30 14 minute rounds. 15 MR. : Yeah. Uh-huh. 16 MR. : So 44—basically, if he 17 came back at, let's say, 7:00 p.m., by 7:30 18 they should have known? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : And certainly by the 21 10:00 p.m. count? 22 MR. : Yes. Most definitely, because 23 it depends on - all right, the attorney 24 conference goes from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., 25 right? Attorneys can start coming in at 8 EFTA00116025

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 o'clock in the morning. So if he's down there, 2 let's say he went down 10 o'clock. Right? 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : And he's down there from 10:00 5 to 7:30 p.m., whatever that time. Then he has 6 to be escorted back upstairs. Right? So after 7 8 o'clock, there's no more attorney visits that 8 they're, you know, they're gone for the day, 9 inmate goes back, he gets stripped out, he gets 10 placed in the cell. At that time, you see he 11 doesn't have a bunkie. 12 MR. : Yeah, once he's escorted 13 back into his room, right? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Into the cell. 16 MR. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : As soon as whoever 18 escorted him -- 19 MR. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : -- back to the cell 21 should have known, "Hey, I'm putting him back 22 in a -- 23 MR. : He don't have a bunkie. 24 MR. : I'm putting this guy 25 back in a cell without anybody in here." EFTA00116026

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 MR. : Yeah. He doesn't have a 2 bunkie. 3 MR. : And when you escort -- 4 MR. : So -. 5 MR. somebody in the cell, 6 you always verify who is in there. 7 MR. : Yeah. Because you have to open 8 - you have to look and make sure somebody in 9 there because the inmates have to be cuffed. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : So he had to be cuffed or he 12 should have been cuffed, placed on the range 13 and when they crack that door, before they 14 crack that door to make sure somebody is in 15 there. If nobody was in there, somebody should 16 have got the horn and, "Hey, he don't have a 17 bunkie." 18 MR. : So, at -. 19 MR. : By the 10 o'clock count, it 20 should - yes. 21 MR. : And at that point if, 22 somewhere between when he was escorted back and 23 10:00 p.m. -- 24 MR. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : -- could have a new EFTA00116027

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 bunkie been put in there with him? 2 MR. : Perhaps, yeah. 3 MR. : Just perhaps? Not -. 4 MR. : Or he could have been placed in 5 a hard cell -- 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : -- by his self. 8 MR. : But one or the other 9 should have happened? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : He shouldn't have -. 12 MR. : If I can't find a bunkie, he's 13 going in a hard cell until the morning. 14 MR. : And should have the SHU 15 staff -. 16 MR. : That's just me. 17 MR. : But should have the SHU 18 staff known that? 19 MR. : No, because I don't know if the 20 SHU was full at that time. I don't recall, you 21 know, because I didn't do a kick out list, so. 22 MR. : Okay. So if there's 72 23 inmates in the SHU, is that full? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : That's pretty full? EFTA00116028

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 MR. : Yeah, it's full. And we have 2 down cells, so. 3 MR. : But earlier that day it 4 was like 76 or -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : -- or something? 7 MR. : Yeah, we were full. So, we had 8 the two hard cells, well, three, because we 9 have a suicide cell and they probably had c, 10 housing rec alone, that's on J Tier and then 11 you got the two hard cells on H Tier. 12 MR. : But regardless -- 13 MR. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. the SHU people from 15 7:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m., that would have been, 16 it looks like , he was on from 4:00 p.m. 17 to midnight. 18 MR. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : Somebody should have 20 notified or at least 21 MR. : Uh-huh, that he was by his 22 self. 23 MR. : And would it be one or 24 the other, or 25 MR. : Well, the Activities EFTA00116029

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Lieutenant, if they went to SHU to make rounds, or whatever, one of them - somebody should have known. MR. : Okay. They should have notified those people. MR. : Yeah. MR. : What about the next shift? So Noel and Thomas are on from midnight to 8:00 a.m. When they know during their shift that he is without a cell mate, should have they notified someone? MR. : Yeah. Notified our Ops Lieutenant, one of them. MR. : So they should notifiedy, in their case, who was the Ops Lieutenant at that time. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : Okay. And -. MR. : Say, "Hey, this dude is by his self." MR. : Okay. And how serious do you believe that to be that they're not making notifications? MR. : What do you mean? MR. : So, I mean, obviously EFTA00116030

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 someone died in this instance. Correct? MR. : Yes. MR. : Let's take that out of it. MR. : Yeah. MR. : If they're in a different situation, if they weren't making that notification, is that serious? Is that a serious infraction of —policy or of, you know, the correctional -- MR. : I mean -. MR. : -- duty assignments? MR. : Yeah, I mean, because, to me, I had people that tried to hang themselves and I work morning watch and I work evening watch. I'm going to check whcn I havc the visualon that individual and I'm making sure they good. MR. : Sure. MR. : And I'm telling everybody, "Yo, make sure you all are doing rounds because, you know, not on my watch," and anybody will tell you, I'm known this for making big rounds, what you doing? We doing big rounds, right? Rounds, rounds, rounds, and we checking on inmates in the Special Housing Unit. That's EFTA00116031

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 what I'm known for. I can't account for 2 anybody else, but I know me, I'm checking on 3 the individual. 4 MR. : The last time you saw 5 Epstein -- 6 MR. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : -- what did you think of 8 his state of mind? Did he seem all right? 9 MR. : He was a little nervous. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : He was a little nervous. But, 12 you know, he was just like, 4tLe—I was like, 13 "You all right?" "Yeah." And he looked at me, 14 you know. And he wanted to go to rec. Again, 15 that morning, he took a shower on Thursday and 16 then he went to attorney conference. 17 MR. : Did he seem like - did he 18 give you any kind of indication that he might 19 be wanting to take his own life? 20 MR. : NHuh-uh. 21 MR. : No? 22 MR. : He just was just, you know, 23 people have like a nervous feeling or whatever. 24 MR. : Now, with a nervous, do 25 you have any reason to believe that he did not EFTA00116032

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 take his own life? 2 MR. : What do you mean? 3 MR. : Someone else - 4 MR. : No, nobody killed that man. He 5 did it himself. Nobody killed him. 6 MR. : So you feel very 7 confident about that? 8 MR. : Yeah. Nobody killed that man. 9 MR. : The question has got to 10 be asked. 11 MR. : Yeah. Nobody killed him. 12 Listen, all the conspiracy theories, out the 13 window, okay? The man killed his self. Okay? 14 It's unfortunate that he did this and now, here 15 we are. But, you know, that's what cowards do, 16 you know? But I can't speak for him. He knows 17 why he did what he did. 18 MR. : Sure. 19 MR. : But, nobody killed the man. 20 MR. : Could the officers that 21 were in the SHU see into Epstein's cell from 22 where they were seated? 23 MR. : If he's standing at the window. 24 MR. : No, no, I'm sorry, from 25 their desk area. EFTA00116033

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 MR. : Yeah, if he's standing at the 2 window, you can 3 MR. : Oh, oh, oh, you mean if 4 Epstein is standing at the window. 5 MR. : If Epstein is standing at the 6 window, you can -. 7 MR. : But otherwise, unless you 8 go up to the door, you can't see. 9 MR. : Unless you go up to the door, 10 N44uh-uh. You can see if a light is on. But, 11 let me put this on record. The SHU is broken, 12 it needs to be fixed. Okay? Inmates control 13 the lights from the inside. Officers, they 14 just started now putting the lights on the 15 outside. Okay? We should be able to control 16 the lights. We should be able to flick the 17 lights on and look inside the cell. No inmate 18 should be able to press a button and look 19 inside the cell or disfigure the lights. 20 MR. : So you don't have - you 21 didn't have the ability to actually turn the 22 lights on inside -- 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : -- of their cells? 25 MR. : No, there was a switch, but you EFTA00116034

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 still couldn't - the inmate can press the 2 button and only one of the lights would come on 3 and if that light wasn't working, they you 4 can't see inside the cell unless you tell him 5 to get up out of their bed and put that light 6 on. Or if you have a flashlight, you know, 7 you're flashing it in there. But, you know, 8 the cells are broken, man. They were supposed 9 to thcn been change the cells. You know, they 10 had wooden doors for years, but not in SHU. 11 You know, they just - the range, our range, 12 they just did a couple of those doors. And 13 some of them was even falling off the hinges. 14 MR. : Was there any 15 conversation that you recall when Epstein was 16 there of placing him into 10 South? 17 MR. : Not that I recall. 18 MR. : Do you believe he should 19 have been placed in 10 South versus the SHU? 20 MR. : I mean, he's high-profile like 21 they said he was. Everybody else went up 22 there. So, you know, it was to me that he 23 would have been more closely monitored, but 24 that's not my call. 25 MR. : And whose call is it to EFTA00116035

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 place someone in 10 South? MR. : It's the Warden and the Captain. MR. : And have you ever heard that it's actually even over their head for 10 South? MR. : No. Yes. That they said all the inmates in 10 South are SAMSe inmates.and HCCTS (Phonetic Cp. *01:50:32). MR. : Right. And can you explain what SAMSe is? MR. : Special Security Measures, something, you know, there's - you know, their mail is handed - everything is by SIS giving -stand Unit Team. te—Ae SHU Lieutenant. Anything that they get comes from the SHU Lieutenant because we have to keep - that's like, you know, they are - you got to just make sure that they're ready to stand trial. Like, I was there, you know, for Juan Guzman, I was the SHU Lieutenant, and that nothing happened to him. MR. : What happened to him? MR. : It'a nNothing. MR. : Oh. EFTA00116036

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : You know, he stood trial and he was gone. MR. : Was he in 10 South? MR. : Yes. And (Indiccorniblc *01:51:25)all the other inmates that was in 10 South under my watch. MR. : So Monday morning quarterbacking, do you believe that Epstein should have been in 10 South then? MR. : Or on G Tier. MR. : That's 10 South lower? MR. : Yes. MR. : Okay. Because they basically accomplish the same mission. MR. : Those - yeah, because those cells are hard because they're, you know, they got plastic over the windows and everything, so if you're going to try to do anything, you know, it's really difficult. The shower curtains that break away or whatever. Where they can hang the towels, break away. MR. : Did you ever make that suggestion to anyone? MR. : Did I make the suggestion? MR. : Uh-huh. EFTA00116037

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 MR. : That's not my call. 2 MR. : Yeah, yeah, I know, I 3 just didn't know if -. 4 MR. : Naw, that's not my call. 5 MR. : Sure. 6 MR. : I only do what I'm told. 7 MR. : Absolutely. 8 MR. : You all want some water or 9 something, you got to use the bathroom? 10 MR. : No, no, no, I'm good, 11 thank you. 12 MR. : You sure? 13 MR. : Positive, thank you. 14 MR. : What else we doinggot? 15 MR. : I just one other question. 16 MR. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : I'm just going to show you 18 the midnight count -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : -- from August 10th. 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : You just take a look at that. 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : That front page is called the 25 El? EFTA00116038

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yep. 2 MR. : What's the SHU count on that? 3 MR. : 72. 4 MR. : Can you take a look at the 5 count slip on the back page. 6 MR. : The last page. 7 MR. : You see the one for the ZA? 8 What's the count on there? 9 MR. : 73. 10 MR. : If you were the Lieutenant, 11 right, and that count slip came up, what would 12 you have done? 13 MR. : I wouldn't have took it. 14 MR. : Why? Because the -. 15 MR. : The count is wrong. 16 MR. : And what would you have done? 17 MR. : Count again. 18 MR. : You told them to count it 19 again? 20 MR. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : Is there -. 22 MR. : First, I would have - whatever 23 count that they called in, right? If I'm 24 taking the count, right? I'm the official 25 count person, okay? EFTA00116039

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 MR. : There should be like the 2 Ops Lieutenant I'm assuming? 3 MR. : Uh-huh. You could take - but 4 they don't have to take the 12 o'clock count. 5 They could - he could take the 3:00 or the 6 5:00. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : But they have to take a count. 9 I'm different. I want to - there's times I'm 10 even watch operations, right? I'm taking the 11 10 o'clock count, I'm taking the 12 o'clock 12 count. After the 12 o'clock count, I don't 13 have to worry about the count no more. I mean, 14 I have to worry about the count, but I'm making 15 rounds, I'm making sure everything is good. 16 Right? But I want to know what I got. This 17 number right here, is the number that I'm 18 concerned about. 19 MR. : So if the Ops - 20 MR. : 758 inmates. So if the ops, 21 what? 22 MR. : So if the Ops Lieutenant 23 took that count at midnight -- 24 MR. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : -- should have they gone EFTA00116040

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 down to the SHU and witnessed the new count? 2 MR. : Naw, so it's only if it's a 3 double bad. 4 MR. : Just a double bad. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : One bad is not -. 7 MR. : If it's a double bad. 8 MR. : They don't need to get 9 eyes on? 10 MR. : Yeah. If it's the double bad 11 count, we got to go up with a roster, a bed 12 book roster and we, you know, we tell our 13 inmates, "Stand." At night, it's different 14 because you're supposed to see living, 15 breathing flesh. So we're not required to make 16 everybody stand. But I'm going, I'm looking, 17 we counting. That's just me. 18 MR. : Okay. But there was no 19 requirement based on one back bad count. 20 MR. : Naw. If it's a double bad, you 21 have to go up - because sometimes they call in 22 the wrong number. 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : But that's -- 25 MR. : Have you ever heard of - EFTA00116041

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 have you -. 2 MR. crazy. I've never heard. 3 MR. : The (Indiscernible 4 *01:55:26) so -. 5 MR. : You don't have to never worry 6 about me repeating jack. 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : But this is crazy. 9 MR. : Now, what if the person 10 who called count into Control said that, "Hey, 11 I wrote down 73 on the slip, but one of our 12 guys is out of the unit, he's in another place, 13 but I still counted him." Does that make any 14 sense to you? What if they got - 15 MR. : Yes, it makes sense to me, but 16 me as a Control Center officer, no, it's wrong. 17 MR. : Right. And should have a 18 person - so say like -- 19 MR. : So -. 20 MR. : -- should have Noel or 21 Thomas known -. 22 MR. : You want to know what I - damn, 23 I should not, oh my God. 24 MR. : But should Noel or Thomas 25 known they shouldn't have written 73 if they EFTA00116042

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 knew the number was 72 and one guy was 2 somewhere else? Should have they known that 3 the number was 72? 4 MR. : You only - I'm going to put it 5 to you this way. You only write the number of 6 number of people that you have on the housing 7 unit. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : If you have more than the 10 number that you have in the housing unit, that 11 means somebody is not where they're supposed to 12 be. If you have less than you have on the 13 housing unit, this tells me two things. 14 MR. : What's that? 15 MR. : Either -. 16 MR. : Say it. 17 MR. : There's nothing you can 18 surprise us with. 19 MR. : Okay. Originally, it was 73 20 and that's the count that they called in. 21 Somebody realized, "Hey, this guy is not here. 22 Holy shit. Oh, he has - did we key him out? 23 Holy shit. We didn't key him out. Oh, key 24 that guy out." If that guy was keyed out, 25 let's say, I don't know, after 10 o'clock, 11 EFTA00116043

LIMITED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 OFFICIAL USE 146 o'clock, when this was printed - this was printed at 12:35, (Indizccrniblc *01:57:39)the computers don't come back up until 12:30. After 12:30 you can log on the computer and print if you want. MR. : Does this tell you that they didn't conduct the count and they just used the number that -. MR. : That says a lot of things. MR. : What does it say to you? MR. : That says a lot of things. That says a lot of things. But me, as the Ops Lieutenant, I would have never accepted that. MR. : Now, if the Ops Lieutenant said, "Create a new count slip and send it in," would it make any sense that that was still attached to this? MR. : MayboWhat do you mean. MR. : So if the Ops Lieutenant said, "Create a new count," -- MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : -- and they did a new count and did one that said 72, would it make any sense why this one that says 73 is still attached? EFTA00116044

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. That one that says 73 2 shouldn't have been there -- 3 MR. : And -- 4 MR. : -- because that's wrong. 5 MR. : -- do you agree that the 6 people that are written there appears to be an 7 M. Thomas and a Noel? 8 MR. : That's what it says. 9 MR. : Just so we don't -- 10 MR. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : -- want to ever have the 12 opportunity for someone to say we showed you 13 MR. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. different things, so 15 can you just initial and date the top of these 16 packets so that -- 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- it's just to show -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : -- what it is you looked 21 at? 22 MR. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : Did he look at any of 24 this stuff? 25 MR. : No, I was going to -- EFTA00116045

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. I looked at this. 2 MR. -- ask something, one more 3 thing too. 4 MR. : I'll do it. You know. 5 MR. : Is there a reason an inmate 6 will be moved to R&D that late at night? 7 MR. : Nope. 8 MR. : Is it -. 9 MR. : When is typically the 10 latest somebody be moved to R&D? 11 MR. : Only way that they're going to 12 R&D, right, if they're going on the bus, the 13 bus is coming. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : And that's normally on 16 Wednesdays. 17 MR. : And what time would they he 18 moved to R&D? 19 MR. : After the count and -- 20 MR. : Which count? 21 MR. : -- nobody is moving. If 22 they're leaving at 3:00, after the 12 o'clock 23 count. 24 MR. : But buses are almost 25 always around Wednesdays, correct? EFTA00116046

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Typically, yeah. MR. : You would have no - want to know what happened on a Friday night, Saturday morning. MR. : Nope, no. Only people that leave the institution on a Saturday morning, and that's like they come at 8 o'clock, you know, the special guys that go out in the, you know, they're going to Saturday court. MR. : Okay. So that - there's really no excuse for that one right there. MR. : No. MR. : On this (Indiscernible *02:00:20)? Okay. MR. : No. MR. : Just had one more. MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : This is the 5:00 p.m. count, I mean the 4:00 p.m. count. Can you just verify that for August 9th? MR. : Uh-huh. MR. : If the call came in between 1:00 and 2:00 stating that Reyes - if you notice under the SHU, ZA, you see the one edd out count? EFTA00116047

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 MR. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : If between 1:00 and 2:00 the 3 call came in stating that Reyes is no longer 4 going to be in the institution, if it did, 5 should that have reflected still as one out 6 count? 7 MR. : Yeah, because he's out. 8 MR. : But if they said that he's 9 not coming back and he's WAB. 10 MR. : That's R&D. 11 MR. : Explain that. 12 MR. : R&D is Receiving and Discharge. 13 We don't get notified. The courts notify R&D. 14 The Marshals notify R&D. R&D has a supervisor, 15 right? On shift, they have officers that are 16 on shift, so any movement, they know - would 17 know before I would know and so they have to 18 make the proper notifications and key in in the 19 system. 20 MR. : That's what I was going to 21 ask you. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : If R&D did make that 24 notification to the SHU and who else should 25 they have notified to get that correct? EFTA00116048

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 MR. : The CMC would - if the CMC is 2 there, you know -. 3 MR. : What's the CMC? 4 MR. : The Case Manager Coordinator. 5 Yeah. Case Manager Coordinator. 6 MR. : Who would that be on - do we 7 have the schedule? 8 MR. : Oh, I don't know who was the 9 MR. : Okay. This is 10 MR. : CMC at that time. 11 MR. : Office (Indiscernible 12 *02:02:07) if the notification was made. 13 MR. : No, they won't be on that 14 roster. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : That roster is a custody 17 roster. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : So, like I said, R&D is a whole 20 total different department. The court speaks 21 to them. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : So when the courts talk to 24 them, then they talk to us. Normally R&D, you 25 know, if they're WAB or something like that, we EFTA00116049

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 wouldn't know until you run the 38. 2 MR. : What do you mean 38, meaning? 3 MR. : The daily change log. Uh-huh. 4 MR. : Do mind just -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : -- with these just -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- putting it the 6/15/21 9 10 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 11 yeah. 12 MR. : -- and that's just so we 13 know that -- 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : -- not only you initialed 16 but the date of this. 17 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. No problem. 18 MR. : And then on this last 19 one, 4:00 p.m. -- 20 MR. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : -- if you don't mind just 22 initialing it and dating as well. Thank you, 23 sir. 24 MR. : 6/15/21. 25 MR. : Uh-huh. EFTA00116050

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 MR. : Is there anything else 2 you wanted -. 3 MR. : That's it. 4 MR. : All right. So that's all 5 we have for you. We just wanted to know what 6 you knew with the SHU and hopefully it wasn't 7 too painful. 8 MR. : Naw, it wasn't. 9 MR. : Anything else you want to 10 add for the record? 11 MR. : No. I'm just - I wasn't there. 12 So unfortunately, what happened, happened. 13 Everybody works different. I know there's an 14 investigation, but through all the conspiracy 15 stuff, everybody, the staff that was there when 16 they found him, they worked hard to try to 17 revive him and save his life. But, 18 unfortunately, you know, it turned to a sad 19 event. But we are very well understaffed. Had 20 we had more officers - I know everybody want to 21 point the finger, but it's an unfortunate thing 22 to happen, you know? You know, a lot of things 23 have to change in the BOP, you know, but, you 24 know, I only can be as truthful and honest with 25 you as I can, you know? EFTA00116051

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 MR. : On that note, you just 2 made me think of one more small question. You 3 said that they did work hard on saving his 4 life. Was it okay that Thomas immediately went 5 into the cell upon seeing Epstein in the state 6 that he was in or should have he waited? 7 MR. : He made a decision. 8 MR. : All right so was it - do 9 you -. 10 MR. : I would have made the same 11 decision. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : You know, policy states that 14 you can enter a cell if you have, you know, 15 more staff, two or more staff. You don't need 16 an immediate supervisor if it's an emergency 17 situation. 18 MR. : All right. So if 19 somebody is telling us that, "No," they needed 20 to wait for a Lieutenant to come down there, 21 that's not correct? 22 MR. : No. It's in the policy. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : I know the policy. 25 MR. : So you believe that it EFTA00116052

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 was fine for Thomas to enter. 2 MR. : Yeah, because I would have did 3 the same thing. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Yes, there's plenty of times 6 where I've seen something, we had enough staff, 7 "Let's go in there," you know, and -- 8 MR. : And they argued 9 MR. : -- safe a life. 10 MR. : -- that it was like 11 ruse in order to overthrow, you know, that 12 guard or something like that. 13 MR. : No. That's bullshit. 14 MR. : You just said that. You've 15 seen the situation but you've said that there's 16 enough staff, let's go in there. You never -- 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- went in there by yourself? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : That's what he was -. 21 MR. : Yeah, so I'm - Thomas 22 went in by himself if Noel is down range, he's 23 by himself. 24 MR. : They both on the same range? 25 MR. : Yeah, so if she's down, EFTA00116053

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 not with him, he goes in by himself, is that 2 okay? 3 MR. : It's one for one. And if he 4 says it's an emergency situation, he made 5 decision. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : I probably would have - if I 8 see somebody hanging, I'm making a decision. 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. : I'm trying to save a life. 11 MR. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : You understand? 13 MR. : Yeah. No, I'm only 14 asking - yeah. 15 MR. : No, the policy states, you 16 know, it's two to one, you know, two officers 17 to one inmate. Then they came and they said, 18 "One to one ratio," but they never really 19 changed it, that's word of mouth. But it's 20 always two to one, right? If you down range 21 with me, it's two to one. So if it's an 22 emergency situation and I've activated my body 23 alarm, I'm a go get you. Okay? Now, who 24 knows, he could have been faking a funk. Come 25 in there, he came in his cell and try to EFTA00116054

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 escape. Now you got the keys, now your SHU is 2 compromised. So it's a judgment call. But at 3 the end of the day, I've been in situations 4 where two people in my career tried to commit 5 suicide. I saved both of them. Okay? One was 6 early, I think early this year, January or 7 something or late last year. Inmate tried to 8 kill himself. I was called upstairs. I didn't 9 wait. They said, "Operations to the Special 10 Housing Unit -" I mean, Special Housing. i 11 didn't wait. I came upstairs ASAP. They let 12 me in and the dude was hanging. I did my 13 (Indizcorniblc *02:07:50)583, I did my 14 notification to the Warden, right? Did they 15 thank me? No, she sent me a personal email 16 like three days later. You know who did it, I 17 did, but it's okay. I'm there for officers. 18 I'm there to save lives. I did my job. Prior 19 to that, I still had a guy, a young man who was 20 in the newspaper, gang member. Okay? I saved 21 his lift. He was hanging on J Tier in a 22 suicide cell, tried to hangd himself. We went 23 in there, grabbed him with enough staff and we 24 lowered him down. After that, there was a 25 young boy. Always had a bunkie. Who was the EFTA00116055

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 SHU Lieutenant? Me. Okay? So do I - from 2 experience, yes, I know. Do I talk to my crew? 3 Yes. Was it documented? Yes. That's all I 4 can say. 5 MR. : So yeah, you agree with 6 his decision, it was okay? 7 MR. : He made a decision. 8 MR. : Absolutely. 9 MR. : You know? 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : All right? 12 MR. : Anything else you want to 13 add before we turn this thing off? 14 MR. : Naw. 15 MR. : All right. It is 16 currently 8:06 p.m. on Tuesday, June 15, 2021. 17 This is Senior Special Agent 18 and I am turning off the recorderwc'rc 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00116056

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 EFTA00116057

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 represent an accurate transcript of the 4 electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 Inspector General in the matter of: 7 8 Interview of 9 10 11 12 13 Transcriber 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00116058