101 1 MR. : -- that you're a 2 supervisor. 3 MS. : -- that would be - I would 4 say - that would be , because that's his 5 area, the cameras. 6 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 7 anybody else would have the ability to do 8 things like that, to take, you know, recorders 9 on or offline, or to at least check their 10 status with the camera system? 11 MS. : I don't know. If it is, it 12 would be facilities shop. 13 MR. : So, but primarily, 14 would be the person? 15 MS. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Not you, though? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : And in no way, while you 21 were -. Although, the only thing that would be 22 able to tip you off, if things weren't 23 recording, is if you started trying to rewind, 24 and it wasn't rewinding. 25 MS. : If I tried to rewind, it EFTA00116453

102 1 wouldn't rewind. Or if they were red. It 2 would have, like, a red X on a camera. I know 3 that it's a problem, even if it's not working 4 at all. Or something is wrong with it. 5 MR. : Did that - on the 8th, 6 when you were looking - were there any red X's? 7 MS. : I don't recall if -. Because 8 it's a lot of cameras, and they're in different 9 places. So, I don't recall there being a red 10 X. 11 MR. : But just to -- 12 MS. : On any of them. 13 MR. : -- circle back. What 14 tipped you off was with you and trying to 15 go back and review? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : And that's where you said 18 -- 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : -- why can't I do it? 21 MS. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Gotcha. 23 MR. : And prior to that day, you 24 don't recall when the last time you guys tried 25 to review it was, right? EFTA00116454

103 1 MS : No. I don't recall. 2 MR. : Okay. So, but it had been a 3 little bit. It had been a little while? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. Anything else on the 6 cameras? 7 MR. : I think that's all. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : That's great information, 10 that we didn't know that before. I didn't know 11 that that's how we found out that the cameras 12 were offline -- 13 MS. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : -- was basically your 15 review. How often should have been 16 going in to check those servers to make sure 17 that they were online? 18 MS. : Daily. 19 MR. : So then, would you know 20 if he was? 21 MS. : I can't say he was checking 22 daily. I know that he was up there quite 23 often. But I can't even say that he was 24 checking the cameras because, one I let him in, 25 to do whatever he's doing with the servers, you EFTA00116455

104 1 know, I wasn't standing there, you know, saying 2 what are you doing, or, so -- 3 MR. : And I know we're talk -- 4 MS. : -- but daily, they should 5 have checked. 6 MR. : -- I know we're talking a 7 long time ago now, but do you remember, prior 8 to the 8th, if he was in -? Because again, I 9 think the information that we have suggests 10 that the camera servers went down on the actual 11 July 29th -- 12 MS. : Hmm. 13 MR. : -- of 2019. So, there 14 is, like, almost a - more than a -- 15 MS. : Week. 16 MR. : -- week -- 17 MS. : Yeah. Yeah. 18 MR. : -- do you know if he was 19 actually going in, at that time, for that week 20 period, checking in on the servers at all, at 21 this -? 22 MS. : I know he entered the area. 23 But I don't know if he checked the servers 24 while he were back there. But I know he was 25 entering the area. EFTA00116456

105 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : What else is in that area? 3 MS. : Just the servers in there. 4 And ink cartridges. At the top. 5 MR. : And that's on the third 6 floor? 7 MS. : It's on the third floor. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : And then, nothing else is 10 stored. Is there evidence stored in there? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : For some reason, we were 13 under the impression that SIS stored evidence 14 there. 15 MS. : There's no evidence in there. 16 It's some old file cabinets from, maybe before 17 I was born. 18 MR. : And I think said 19 that there was maybe, it's like a hallway, and 20 there's, like, some evidence, some old 21 evidence, or evidence there. 22 MS. : Not where the servers are. 23 But it's some file cabinets, where the servers 24 are. And I think that's maybe some archive SIS 25 cases from -- EFTA00116457

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 MR. : Okay. MR. : Okay. MS. : -- a long time ago. MR. : So, next topic? MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Okay. So, what was understanding about why Epstein was assigned cell? Were you aware that 106 your not in his he was - 9 when they found him - and he was not in the 10 cell that he was assigned to in the system? 11 MS. : No. I learned that later on, 12 that -- 13 MR. : What did you learn? 14 MS. : -- that he was keyed to one 15 cell, but he was actually living in another 16 cell. So, I don't know where they changed his 17 cell at. 18 MR. : And is this because the cell 19 rotations that happen in the SHU? 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : And who would have been 22 responsible to make sure that this, once the 23 cell rotation happened -. 24 MR. : That's not the reason. 25 So, let's not go down that path. So, did you EFTA00116458

107 1 learn how that happened? How he was keyed into 2 one, and not in another? 3 MS. : No. 4 MR. : No? Okay. Did you hear 5 -? Does this refresh your memory at all, like, 6 he was initially placed into one cell, when he 7 came back from suicide watch, around July 30th, 8 but then, the CPAP machine didn't actually 9 reach into there, so they had to switch him to 10 another? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : No? So, you never heard 13 anything about that? 14 MS. : No. 15 MR. : Okay. Go ahead. 16 MR. : So - 17 MR. : Who would have been 18 responsible for making those changes in the 19 system, to make sure that he's in the actual 20 cell where he's supposed to be there? 21 MS. : Normally, the SHU OIC make 22 the changes. 23 MR. : So, it wouldn't be the 24 lieutenant? It would be the OIC? 25 MS. : Yeah. It would be the OIC. EFTA00116459

108 1 MR. : Okay. And so, would that 2 be -? Is there an OIC for each shift, or is 3 there one overall OIC? 4 MS. : There is one for each shift. 5 MR. : Okay. So, on that note, 6 is it more for, like, the morning watch, the 7 day watch, or the evening watch that would be 8 responsible for that change? 9 MS. : No. Whatever shift he was 10 moved on, that OIC should have made the change. 11 MR. : Okay. Okay. And at this 12 point, if the change wasn't made, is there a 13 way for us to know when that occurred? When 14 they actually moved him from one cell to 15 another cell? 16 MS. : No. The only way you would 17 know is to rely on the cameras to, you know, 18 rewind and see. 19 MR. : To see, you know 20 MS. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- when that actually 22 happened. But the cameras weren't actually 23 working -- 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : -- from 7/29, and this EFTA00116460

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 happened on 2 point? 3 MS. 4 MR. 5 MS. 6 MR. 7 MR. 8 MR. MR. 109 7/30. There's no way, at this they supposed MS. : MR. MS. : have to do a three or five officer. Per cell searches MR. : actual cells searching? MS. : Actual cell searches. MR. : And is that five -? MS. : With the exception of midnight shift. They usually do the areas. No. : Okay. No. : Go ahead. Next level? : Sure. Cell searches. How often are to do cell searches in the SHU? You're taking me back-back. : Yeah. There is - I want to say they set amount. I don't know if it's . It was five when I was an shift. They should be random ▪ Is it of the general area, or that they're supposed to be the general EFTA00116461

110 1 MR. : But there should have been 2 cell searches done, by the C.O.s, at least five 3 times? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Per shift? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : On day watch 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : -- and night watch? 10 MS. : No. On day watch -- 11 MR. : Day watch and evening -- 12 MS. : -- an evening watch. 13 MR. : -- watch. 14 MR. : All right. Well, 15 evening. Evening watch, right? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : So, if they're doing 18 those, is it just as important to log those 19 searches into the system? 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : So, if there is no cell 22 searches actually being logged into the system, 23 on those dates, is that a problem? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay And would you EFTA00116462

1 consider that, 2 MS. : 3 MR. 4 the system, is 5 happened? 6 MS. : 7 MR. 8 MR. : 111 like, a policy violation? Yes. : If it's not logged into it almost as if they never Yes. : Go ahead. That's all I have. I know 9 you looked into the monitor, the phone call 10 that Epstein made the night before, on August 11 9th, right? And what is your understanding of 12 what transpired? Like, how did he make that 13 phone call? 14 MS. : My understanding is that his 15 unit manager gave him the phone call. On an 16 unsecured line. He placed Epstein in the 17 shower area - that's what my understanding - 18 and he plugged the phone into an unsecured 19 line, and gave him a phone call. 20 MR. : And based on what we - based 21 on the interviews - it looks like Epstein asked 22 to speak to his mother. 23 MS. : Right. 24 MR. : And he asked for, his pack 25 and PIN was not set up. EFTA00116463

112 1 MR. : Well, let's ask her. 2 What is your understanding of what happened? 3 MS. : That was my understanding, 4 that he made a phone call to his mother. 5 MR. : Have you learned anything 6 since then? 7 MS. : No. Well, I did learn that 8 his mother was deceased on the 10th. 9 MR. : And do you know who he 10 actually called? 11 MS. : I don't. I don't. I 12 actually was present when we did get the 13 number, and the NYPD guy called the number 14 back, but I don't know who it was. 15 MR. : He actually dialed the 16 phone? 17 MS. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : To check to -? Rather 19 than doing a search, he called the number that 20 they -- 21 MS. : I think he did a search. 22 MR. : -- okay. 23 MS. : I think he did a search. And 24 he called the number. 25 MR. : From here? At the BOP? EFTA00116464

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 MS. 2 have called 3 MR. 4 MS. 5 he called 6 MR. 7 presence? 8 MS. there. MR. phones MS. from 113 No. I want to say he might from his phone he had. : He had a cell phone? Yeah. Mm-hmm. I want to say his phone. : Was this in your Yeah. It was. Yeah. I was : Did they bring their cell into the institution? : We had - we got approval for them to bring their phones in, because they was doing an investigation. MR. : Oh, okay. MS. : Yes. MR. : And do you know if someone answered when he called? MS. : I want to say a female answered, but hung up. MR. : Okay. Did he identify himself? MS. : I can't remember. MR. : Okay. MS. : I can't remember. EFTA00116465

114 1 MR. : And is that the same 2 person, though, that -- 3 MR. : You think? 4 MS. : Yeah. 5 MR. : -- NYPD 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : -- detective. 8 MS. : Because - yes - it was only 9 one NYPD at the time. 10 MR. : Okay. And it's 11 . ? 12 MS. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : I think it was . 15 MR. : Okay. Great. Who did 16 you say that actually provided him the phone 17 call? 18 MS. : His unit manager. 19 MR. : And who was that? 20 MS. : His name is 22 MR. : And what is your 23 understanding of what should have transpired if 24 he gave him that phone call? How should have 25 that process worked? EFTA00116466

115 1 MS. : If he gave him a phone call, 2 it should have been on a secure line. Meaning, 3 the inmate's line. Because when it's on the 4 inmate line, you can listen to the phone call. 5 You know, go back. You can monitor it live. 6 And it should have been recorded in the logbook 7 that he received the phone call to the number 8 he received the phone call to. 9 MR. : And should have he sat 10 there with him, while the call was being 11 placed? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : All right. And do you 14 know anything about there not being a logbook 15 in the SHU, for those telephone calls? 16 MS. : I know it was -. We were 17 looking for logbooks. I can't remember if that 18 book was one of them, to be honest with you, 19 because I collected so many. So, I can't 20 remember if that actual book was missing. 21 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 22 actually did monitor the call, and log 23 it? 24 MS. : I don't know. 25 MR. : You don't know if he did EFTA00116467

116 1 or not? 2 MS. : I don't know. 3 MR. : Okay. Do you know 4 anything -? Did your investigation reveal 5 anything that transpired during that call? 6 MS. : No. I don't know. 7 MR. : No. So, you never found 8 anything more? 9 MS. : I never found anything more. 10 MR. : How serious of a 11 violation do you consider it, if the inmate had 12 - in this specific instance - both provided 13 Epstein the phone call, and put him in the G- 14 tier shower, walked away, and not only walked 15 away, but left the unit? And the inmate could 16 then talk by himself. Is that a pretty 17 significant thing, or -? 18 MS. : It is. Because it was on a - 19 again - it was on an unsecured line. So, you 20 know, you can't get the recording back, even if 21 you an emergency and you needed to step away 22 for a minute, you know, you still can go and 23 listen back to that phone call, to see if 24 anything transpired. 25 MR. : Sure. And why is it? Is EFTA00116468

117 1 it, like, a potential danger to other inmates 2 in the facility, by being able to provide 3 inmates these unsecured phone calls? 4 MS. : I would say yes. 5 MR. : So, it's a security 6 matter? 7 MS. : It's a security issue. 8 MR. : Okay. And what is your 9 opinion on if, when - Epstein says he's 10 calling his mother, and Mr. calls the 11 number that he gives him, which we don't have 12 the number for at the time, there's no list, 13 and a male answers the phone. And then, he 14 provides Epstein with that call. What is your 15 thoughts on that as an SIS lieutenant? 16 MS. : Okay. Can I -? Just 17 rephrase it. He gave him the phone call, and a 18 male answered the phone call. 19 MR. : So, Epstein says, I'm 20 calling my mother. This is the number. He 21 calls the number. Mr. says a male 22 answers the phone. And then provides the phone 23 to Epstein. 24 MS. : At that point, I wouldn't 25 have provided the phone to Epstein. I would EFTA00116469

118 1 have hung the call up. 2 MR. : Right. So, is that also 3 a pretty bad security violation? 4 MS. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Should he have verified who 7 was on the phone? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Should he have asked for a 10 name? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : Was there a logbook, at that 13 point, in the SHU? 14 MS. : I don't know. I don't know 15 MR. : Is there something called 16 endogen (Phonetic Sp. •01:24:39) inmates? 17 Inmates. Now, if -- 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : -- can you -? 20 MR. : What does that mean? 21 MR. : Yeah. What does that mean? 22 MS. : Endogen is inmates that, you 23 know, don't have any money on their accounts. 24 They don't have no type of resources. No type 25 of money coming in, through family members, or EFTA00116470

119 1 anything to that effect. 2 MR. : Now, if an endogen inmate 3 wanted to make a phone call, what is the 4 procedure for that? 5 MS. : I'm not too sure how unit 6 team deal with endogen inmate. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : I'm not too sure. 9 MR. : Is it - have you ever heard 10 the procedure that, if an inmate doesn't any 11 money in the pack and PIN, they can't make any 12 phone calls, the unit team sometimes allows 13 them to make a phone call on the legal line? 14 MS. : I've never heard of that. 15 MR. : Regardless, if an inmate 16 is speaking on the legal line, it's always 17 supposed to be -- 18 MS. : A legal -- 19 MS. : -- monitored? 20 MS. : -- a legal phone call. Yes. 21 MR. : Where if it's in this 22 case, that an inmate that doesn't actually have 23 money, if they do allow it, they have to 24 monitor it. Correct? They have to sit there 25 and listen to it with them? EFTA00116471

120 1 MS. : They do, but they shouldn't 2 allow it because it's a legal line. 3 MR. : Okay. So, really, the 4 legal line is only supposed to be -- 5 MS. : Only for legal. 6 MR. : -- okay. So, not only 7 was this not done properly, they should have 8 never provided Epstein a call from the legal 9 line, is what you're saying? 10 MS. : Right. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Is there another line, or, 13 like, a pack and PIN set up to utilize for 14 inmates that don't have any money, that want to 15 make calls? Like, you know how pack and PINs 16 are assigned to each inmate. Right? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Now, if it's an endogen 19 inmate, and they wanted to make a phone call 20 that's not legal, is there a special code that 21 the unit team can use? 22 MS. : I don't know. I don't know. 23 MR. : And if the captain, if there 24 was a conversation between the captain and the 25 unit, Nathaniel , and the captain EFTA00116472

121 1 instructed him to monitor it, and log the call, 2 what does that mean to you? 3 MS. : That mean you should be 4 standing there, listening to the phone call. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : And you should be recording 7 it in the logbook. 8 MR. : All right. Anything else on 9 that? 10 MR. : Nope. 11 MR. : Now, let's talk about August 12 10th. Right? When did you find out about Mr. 13 Epstein's death? 14 MS. : Maybe about 6:00 in the 15 morning. I got a call at home. I got a call 16 at home, by the captain called me. 17 MR. : Captain ? 18 MS. : Captain called me. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MS. : And he said we have an 21 emergency. I need you to come up to the 22 institution. And I said, okay. What happened? 23 You know, I'm getting up now. And he said, 24 it's Epstein again. And I said, okay. What 25 happened? You know, with Epstein. And he EFTA00116473

122 1 said, Epstein tried to kill himself. So, I 2 said, okay. I got dressed, and I came up to 3 the institution. It's not until maybe I was 4 here maybe about 45 minutes, when I learned 5 that he was deceased, and then, everybody said, 6 wait, you didn't know? And I said, no, because 7 I heard tried. So, and I remember saying, did 8 he go to the hospital because try mean, okay, 9 did we take him here? And when I got to there, 10 like, no, he's in the hospital. Like, he's 11 deceased, and I was, like, oh. Okay. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. So, when -. 13 MR. : Do you know if he was 14 alive when the first officer responded to him? 15 MS. : Oh, I don't know. 16 MR. : Do you have anything, any 17 investigative steps that you took reveal 18 anything about that? Like, life-saving 19 measures, like, to keep him alive versus bring 20 him back? 21 MS. : I don't know. Just 22 overhearing that they did some CPR measures. 23 But I don't really know who did what. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : When you arrived at the EFTA00116474

123 1 facility, around what time was it, 2 approximately? 3 MS. : Maybe, I know it was before 4 7:30. 5 MR. : And was he already gone, at 6 that point? 7 MS. : Yes. He was already gone. 8 MR. : And when you came in, what is 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 MR. : On -- 24 MR. -- sorry. 25 MR. : -- and on the count the first step you did? MS. : I just started gathering evidence. You know -? MR. : Did you go up to the SHU? MS. : Yes. I went up to the SHU to take whatever logbooks that was up there, and that I could find. I went to the control center to look for the count slips, from the night before, the 9th and the 10th. The warden had took some of the count slips. He beat me to the punch. So, he did give me what he took because it was -. Everybody was just trying to gather up evidence, just -. MR. : We're just trying to get a EFTA00116475

124 1 slips, did you find anything out about the 2 counts that were conducted, or not conducted, 3 that night? 4 MS. : On the count slips, I just 5 seen that they were filled out. They were 6 filled out. And I think, I want to say the 7 10th was missing. Because everybody would run 8 around, looking for the 10th count slip. I 9 can't remember what time. I think the 3:00 and 10 the 5:00, they were looking for. On the count 11 slips. 12 MR. : When you said they were 13 looking for it, where were they looking for it? 14 MS. : In the control center. 15 MR. : I see. 16 MS. : Because that's where the 17 count slips would be. 18 MR. : So, they went to -. And so, 19 the captain, or the warden, went down to the 20 control center, they were looking for the 3:00 21 a.m. and the 5:00 a.m. count slips, and they 22 couldn't find them? 23 MS. : I don't know who actually 24 went in the control center because it's my 25 understanding they were looking for the count EFTA00116476

125 1 slips before I arrived. So, what -. 2 MR. : Did you do any vetting of 3 the counts, though, to notice, like, if the 4 count slips matched up with the institutional 5 counts, or anything like that? 6 MS. : Did I do any? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MS. : No. I didn't. 9 MR. : So, you didn't notice. 10 Did you notice any of the count slips having, 11 like, any extra writing on them? Like, 95+1, 12 or 73+1. Or anything like that? 13 MS. : Hmm. I can't remember. 14 MR. : So, you don't remember. 15 MS. : I can't remember. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Do you want to show that? 18 MR. : No. I mean, yeah, if you 19 want to, if you have it. Sure. 20 MR. : We'll come back. So, I'll 21 come back to that. I just had a few questions. 22 So, when you came in, people were already in 23 the SHU, looking for stuff? 24 MS. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Pulling stuff up? EFTA00116477

126 1 MS. : That, it was only the captain 2 gave me a few things. He was looking for his 3 folder. His 292s and stuff to that effect. So 4 5 MR. : That would be Epstein's 6 folder? 7 MS. : -- Epstein's. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : Right. So, whatever he found 10 with Epstein, he did give it to me. Whatever 11 he found in the SHU. Again, the count slips 12 were in the warden's office, what they found. 13 So, I did get those from him. 14 MR. : What is the normal procedure 15 if an inmate dies in prison, or, you know, a 16 suicide happens in prison, what is the normal 17 procedure on the actions to be taken? 18 MR. : Well, prior to we get 19 into that, why were you all looking for the 20 count slips? 21 MS. : That's, like, a procedure, 22 what we do, you know, we look at the count 23 slips to make sure - especially with a suicide 24 in SHU - you want to make sure that the count 25 was conducted. You're going to review the EFTA00116478

127 1 cameras and see that the count was conducted. 2 You know, it's just to make sure, basically 3 everybody is accountable, and do what they 4 needed to do. 5 MR. : And did you do any of 6 that, trying to ensure that those counts were 7 conducted? 8 MS. 9 I didn't do 10 point, once 11 it would be 12 MR. 13 MS. 14 MR. 15 counts 16 MS. 17 MR. 18 MR. 19 MR. 20 21 22 23 24 25 Well, it was no cameras, and an investigation, because at that we notify OIG and FBI, we knew that their investigation. So -- : Right. -- I did no investigation. : And do you know if the were conducted? : I don't know. : Okay. : Okay. : So, now the procedures. MR. : Well, on the same note, then. Did they eventually find the count slips? MS. : They found -. They did find -. I don't think the 10th was ever located. It could have been. I can't recall. But I know the 10th was the missing count slip. One EFTA00116479

128 1 of them went missing or something to that 2 effect, that, you know, OIG kept calling me, 3 and I'm, like, I'm looking for them, I'm going 4 through everything, I'm going through, you 5 know, we were trying to find. It was something 6 missing. I can't remember the timeframe, but 7 it definitely was something missing, at the 8 time. 9 MR. : But you didn't say, it 10 eventually was found? 11 MS. : I -- 12 MR. : Okay. And do you know 13 MS. : -- I can't remember. 14 MR. : -- so, when you came in, 15 right after you found out about the incident, 16 did you come right to the SHU? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Who was in the SHU, at that 19 point? 20 MS. : I don't remember. It was a 21 lot of people. 22 MR. : When you say a lot of people, 23 like -? 24 MS. : In and out of the SHU. Like, 25 administration. Like, the captain, I think, EFTA00116480

129 1 was up there at the time. Or I -- 2 MR. : Was -. 3 MS. : -- I can't even remember what 4 officers was up there, to be honest with you. 5 MR. : Who was in the cell, at that 6 point? Epstein's cell. 7 MS. : Nobody. 8 MR. : Nobody. Was that sealed off? 9 MS. : The door was locked. 10 MR. : Do you know who locked it? 11 MS. : I don't know who locked it. 12 MR. : Okay. And why was the door 13 locked? 14 MS. : I don't know, but I'm 15 assuming somebody locked it because they knew 16 it would be -. You know, we would do an 17 investigation on it. 18 MR. : Do you think it was a 19 possible crime scene? 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : Okay. And they sealed it up 22 so no one came in and out? 23 MS. : Nobody came in and out. When 24 I got up there, it was locked. We took the 25 CPAP machine, and different stuff out of it, we EFTA00116481

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 did. And we inventoried it in SIS. MR. : So, that's a question. So, when you -. It was locked. Since did someone go in, at that point, to take stuff out? MS. : No. We didn't go in right then and there. No. We roped it off with the yellow tape. MR. : Okay. MS. : We roped it off with the yellow tape. MR. : And then, of course, what about the stuff inside the - before we go in this room - what about the stuff in the officer's desk? Was stuff inventoried out of the desks? Taken stuff, taken out. Like, any MS. MR. • Epstein. took the MS. MR. MS. • couldn't MR. : No. : -- anything related to Like, you mentioned that the captain folder. Where was that folder -- : No. : -- taken? : We couldn't find -. They find the folder. : Oh, they couldn't find the EFTA00116482

131 1 folder? 2 MS. : They couldn't find the folder 3 at all. So, whatever paperwork he got was 4 stuff laying around. 5 MR. : So, he took stuff off the 6 desks, and things like that? 7 MS. : I'm - yeah - I'm assuming 8 that's where he got it from. 9 MR. : Was an inventory made of 10 those stuff that he took out of the SHU? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. What are the steps - 13 as an SIS lieutenant - did you guys take any 14 materials out of the SHU, as evidence? 15 MS. : What do you mean? 16 MR. : Like, did -- 17 MS. : Find something? 18 MR. : -- any paperwork related to 19 Epstein, things like that, did you guys 20 inventory anything? 21 MS. : Everything related to him. 22 Yeah. Because we brought it down to SIS. We 23 turned it over to OIG. 24 MR. : Okay. So, the -- 25 MS. : And we inventoried it. EFTA00116483

132 1 MR. : -- inventory was done by you, 2 not the FBI? 3 MS. : No. It was done by me. They 4 signed off on it, well, as I was handing it to 5 them. I had everything on an inventory list, 6 of course. So, they were double checking what 7 I was giving them, and they signed off on the 8 chain of custody. 9 MR. : And that morning, the round 10 sheets, where did you find the round sheets? 11 MS. : So, someone gave me the round 12 sheets. 13 MR. : So, it was not -? It wasn't 14 in the SHU? 15 MS. : No. 16 MR. : Okay. And Epstein paper. 17 You said you took anything Epstein related, 18 right? In paperwork. 19 MS. : Right. 20 MR. : And, like, what kind of 21 paperwork did you take? 22 MS. : Oof. I think I got, like, 23 one or two 292s. I may have. Whatever it was, 24 was very little. 25 MR. : Do you recall taking this EFTA00116484

133 1 orange sign, mandatory -? It says mandatory 2 rounds must be conducted every 30 minutes on 3 Epstein. 4 MS. : Not, I've never even seen 5 that sign. 6 MR. : So, you've never seen that? 7 MS. : No. 8 MR. : Okay. And do you recall any 9 signs being up in the SHU, regarding Epstein? 10 MS. : No. I don't recall. 11 MR. : Him needing a cellmate, and 12 your rounds being -. So, you don't recall this 13 in there, either? 14 MS. : No. I've never seen that 15 sign. 16 MR. : Do you know who collected 17 that, by any chance? 18 MS. : No. I don't. 19 MR. : So, if you -. 20 MR. : Was it the captain that 21 went in and collected a lot of this stuff? Is 22 the one that -? 23 MS. : He did, but -- 24 MR. : And was he the one -- 25 MS. : -- that was never -- EFTA00116485

134 1 MR. : -- that provided -? He 2 provided you with some of this stuff, though, 3 like, the 292s that you're talking about? 4 MS. : Yes. He gave me the 292s. 5 MR. : And what is that? Is 6 that, like, the feeding -- 7 MS. : The feeding. 8 MR. : -- and the showers? 9 MS. : The showers. Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : But you don't recall this? 12 MS. : I've never seen that. 13 MR. : Was there any lists kept in 14 the SHU, to say any special needs for some of 15 the inmates? Like, if they are suicidal watch, 16 and things like that, is there any special 17 lists in the SHU for that? 18 MS. : It should have been a hot 19 list. What we call a hot list, that psychology 20 would have put up there. Do you recall if 21 there was one in the SHU, at that point? 22 MS. : I don't know. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : I don't know. 25 MR. : And if there was one, where EFTA00116486

135 1 would it have been kept? 2 MS. : I would think it would have 3 been posted somewhere near the officer's 4 station. 5 MR. : Okay. And what about the - 6 now, let's go to his cell - who inventoried 7 everything out of his cell? 8 MS. : My SIS tech went in, and she 9 took what was in there, which was, like, some 10 letters he had. I think some pill bottles. 11 And the CPAP machine was in there. 12 MR. : Did you assist your - sorry, 13 I wrote the person's name. 14 MS. : 15 MR. : . 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Did you assist ? 18 MS. : Yeah. I was up there. Yes. 19 MR. : How do you spell her last 20 name? 21 MS. : -. 22 MR. : So, it's, I wrote it . 23 . And first name is ? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. ? Like, our -- EFTA00116487

136 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : -- , our country? 3 MS. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : Okay. Cool. 5 MR. : So, did you assist her when 6 - 7 MS. : Yeah. I was there. 8 MR. : -- when she walked in 9 You both were. 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : What was your impression when 12 you saw it? Like, what did you see when you 13 walked in? 14 MS. : Just, it wasn't much in the 15 cell. It was just more, linen sheets, linen 16 stuff. 17 MR. : Was there an excessive -- 18 MS. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- excessive amount of 20 linens and sheets? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : Did you inventory that? 23 MS. : No. I didn't. 24 MR. : Do you know around how 25 many linens and sheets were in there? EFTA00116488

137 1 MS : No. I don't. 2 MR. : But it seemed excessive, 3 though, for 4 MS. : For Special Housing. 5 MR. : -- right. 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : So, there were definitely 8 more than should have been in there? 9 MS. : I would say. 10 MR. : Do you know why that 11 would be the case? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : What about the pill bottles? 14 All those pill bottles, and you said you saw 15 medication, things like that. 16 MS. : I don't remember if they were 17 empty, or if medication was in them. I know we 18 just took them. 19 MR. : Can you start going 20 through the pictures? 21 MR. : Yeah. I think -- 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. : -- let me show you pictures. 24 MS. : Sorry about that. 25 MR. : Because we have pictures from EFTA00116489

138 1 -- 2 MR. : Who took the pictures? 3 Do you know? 4 MS. : Ms. 5 MR. : Okay. Okay. 6 MR. : That's okay. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : So, what I'm showing you are 9 the pictures taken inside the SHU. 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : Is that Epstein's cell? 12 MS. : This is -- 13 MR. : On the top. 14 MS. : -- yes. 15 MR. : And that's the You guys 16 put the 17 MS. : The tape on it. Yes. 18 MR. : -- the tape on it, to make 19 sure. 20 MR. : Yeah. That's it. When 21 you say you guys, SIS did? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Sorry. EFTA00116490

139 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 up? Is that the CPAP machine? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. And you said you 12 removed it from the cell? 13 MS. : Yeah. We took the CPAP 14 machine. 15 MR. : Okay. And the CPAP machine 16 only extends to right there? 17 MS. : I can't remember where it was 18 located at. I just know she went, you know, 19 took it out. 20 MR. : So, what -. 21 MR. : Was there - on the CPAP 22 machine and that cord specifically - was there 23 any indication that he may have used that to 24 strangle, to attempt to harm himself, or 25 someone else attempt to harm him? MS. : Oh. MR. : No, no, no. MR. : So, is this from the outside of his MS. cell, the second picture? : Yeah. MR. : With ? MS. : This is the outside. Yes. MR. : So, what is this wire coming EFTA00116491

140 1 MS. : No. Just the, like, the - 2 just the CPAP machine with the cord. 3 MR. : So, was the cord not, 4 like, disheveled, or out of place? Was it 5 straight from the machine, all the way to where 6 it was plugged in? 7 MS. : I can't remember. 8 MR. : Okay. But there was 9 nothing 10 MS. : I can't. 11 MR. : -- that indicated that he 12 was strangled by anything other than the noose 13 that they found in there? 14 MS. : No. 15 MR. : Nothing indicated that 16 the CPAP machine or cord was used? 17 MS. : No. Hmm-mm. 18 MR. : No. Okay. 19 MR. : What happened to the CPAP 20 machine? 21 MS. : It's in the SIS shop. In the 22 inventory. 23 MR. : Oh, it's still there? 24 MS. : It should be still there. 25 I've been gone for a while. But yes. EFTA00116492

141 1 MR. : Okay. But that was taken as 2 a -- 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : -- evidence? Okay. Now, 5 we've seen a lot of the orange. What is that? 6 Is that sheets? 7 MS. : They look like sheets. 8 MR. : And if you notice, there's a 9 mattress on the floor. 10 MS. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Is that where Epstein slept? 12 MS. : I don't know. 13 MR. : Okay. Do you know if that's 14 where they found his body? 15 MS. : I don't know. 16 MR. : Okay. Okay. So, this might 17 be upside down. 18 MR. : So, they were 19 MR. : I'll just -. 20 MR. : -- were all the lines and 21 sheets, were they, then, if they weren't 22 inventoried, were they all discarded? 23 MS. : I don't know. I don't know. 24 MR. : You don't know. Okay. 25 MR. : Now, this picture - sorry, I EFTA00116493

9 1 0 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 had to flip it 2 like it's from 3 MS. 4 MR. 5 What are 6 MS. 7 MR. 8 clothes? MS. use them MR. MS. MR. : So, there's a ladder here that goes up to the second floor. MS. : Right. MR. : Okay. And it looks like there's a whole bunch of items on top. And between the materials that's on the floor, and the materials on the bed, you said there was an excessive amount of linen and -- MS. : Linen. MR. : -- linen. Okay. MR. : Who would be responsible for providing a linen, or removing a linen? MS. : That would be the SHU 142 a couple of times - it looks the corner -- : Right. : -- looking into the cell. these things that's tied up on? : This, and like these? : Yeah. Is that just to hang : They're clothes lines. They normally. Mm-hmm. : Well, what about this? : I don't know. EFTA00116494

143 1 officers. 2 MR. : Okay. So, people in the 3 SHU? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : And was that at all 6 questioned, like, hey, why was there so much 7 linen in there? 8 MS. : I don't. I didn't question 9 them. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : So, I can't -. I don't know 12 if anybody else did. 13 MR. : Okay. And if the cell 14 searches were being conducted, would that be 15 the time that they would actually take -- 16 MS. : Take everything. 17 MR. : -- the linen out? 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : So, what are we looking at, 21 at this picture? Is that the AED machine? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : And what is this right here? 24 MS. : I don't want to say the word 25 noose, but, you know, that's what it looks like EFTA00116495

144 1 2 3 to me. MR. : Okay. And where exactly on it, is this on the floor? Is that on the 4 corner? 5 MS. : I don't know from the angle. 6 MR. : But you know of, would 7 you know if this was the noose that was 8 actually 9 MS. : This was -. 10 MR. : -- used -? 11 MS. : I don't know. I don't know. 12 MR. : Do you know if there were 13 multiple nooses? 14 MS. : I don't know. I don't recall 15 seeing. No. I don't recall. No. 16 MR. : And where is -? What 17 happened to the noose? 18 MS. : It's in the SIS shop. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : Yeah. The SIS. 21 MR. : Still to this day? 22 MS. : It should be. 23 MR. : When was the last time you 24 saw it there? 25 MS. : It's been a while. I've been EFTA00116496

145 1 out of work for some time. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : What is your 4 understanding of how the noose -? How they got 5 Epstein down? Do you know if it was ripped, or 6 if it was cut? Or do you know anything about 7 that? 8 MS. : I don't know. Nobody never 9 said. 10 MR. : Okay. So, you never 11 looked at it. 12 MR. : Because no one said it to 13 you? 14 MS. : Right. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : But not when you were 17 collecting this evidence, though, wasn't 18 clearly, you know? Do you know if anything was 19 still hanging from where he was hung from, or 20 do you know if it was taken off of him after 21 they -? 22 MS. : I don't know. 23 MR. : You don't know. And who 24 would be the person to talk to about that? 25 MS. : The responders. EFTA00116497

146 1 2 3 4 5 MR. responders? MS. MR. Thomas? : : Like, the first Yeah. : As in, like, Noel and 6 MS. : Yeah. The responders would 7 have seen the condition of the cell. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Now, this is a picture. It 10 looks like -- 11 MS. : The bottom of that. 12 MR. : -- what is this right here? 13 This is a 14 MS. : A mattress. 15 MR. : -- is that another mattress? 16 MS. : Yeah. It look like it. 17 Yeah. 18 MR. : So, there is two mattresses 19 on top of each other? 20 MS. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : Okay. Let's go back. Is 22 there another mattress on the floor? Because I 23 don't see, two mattresses here. Right? 24 MS. : No. That's only one. 25 MR. : Oh, that's the -- EFTA00116498

147 1 MS. : Again -- 2 MR. : -- bottom one here. Okay. 3 MS. : -- I don't know who took the 4 pictures. I know she took a set of pictures, 5 and then when the FBI came in, they were 6 searching the cell, and they took a set of 7 pictures. So, I really don't know whose 8 pictures those are. 9 MR. : Is that two mattresses, or 10 just one mattress? 11 MS. : It looks like one. 12 MR. : One. Okay. But so, I 13 thought this picture taken, another mattress 14 was put on top? 15 MS. : Right. This look like two. 16 Of course, well, it is two. So, I don't know. 17 MR. : And look at this pill 18 bottles. There's different medications sitting 19 on the top bunk? 20 MS. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Are those things allowed in 22 the SHU? 23 MS. : The inmates, I think, are 24 allowed to have their medications. 25 MR. : It's not something where the EFTA00116499

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 medical comes by? 2 SHU, medical comes 3 medication? 4 MS. : 5 line daily. I 6 MR. 7 the medication. 8 MS. : MR. MS. : MR. provided MS. MR. MS. MR. MS. MR. by the MR. noose. MS. MR. MR. the same medical 148 It's because they're in the by daily and gives them the They normally do, do a pill don't know why he had -. ■: Well, it's dependent on It is. ■: Correct? Some -- Yeah. ■: some medication can be Because I've seen : -- through self-care. -- yes. Yes. : Right. Yes. : Some needs to be provided staff. : And that's the picture of the Something you guys took, or -? : The one that we took. Yeah. : Okay. : Do you know if this is EFTA00116500

149 1 MS. : Let me see. 2 MR. : -- one that we looked in 3 the other picture, though? 4 MS. : Not that. I don't know. 5 MR. : It looks like that. There's 6 different pictures of the noose. 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. : All right. And we've got a 9 picture of bed. With all the linen on it. 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : And that's all the materials 12 that was on the top bunk. 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : Did you -. 15 MR. : You didn't take these 16 pictures, though. Correct? 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : Did you even go into the 19 cell, at the time, to see all of this? 20 MS. : No. They -. When the other 21 agencies was there, and we were out. On the 22 outside. 23 MR. : Okay. So, but is 24 the one who took these pictures? 25 MS. : I don't know if these are her EFTA00116501

150 1 set of pictures because the FBI took pictures, 2 as well. So, I don't know -- 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : -- if you have hers or 5 theirs. 6 MR. : I gotcha. 7 MR. : Before the FBI got in, was 8 anything moved in the cell? 9 MS. : No. 10 MR. : Okay. So, yeah. This is 11 the kind of overall picture, and this is where 12 it kind of, you know, looks like there's 13 definitely an excessive amount of linens. 14 Correct? 15 MS. : On these pictures, yes. 16 MR. : And is that a security 17 issue, if there is an excessive -- 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : -- amount of linen? And 20 what is that reason that that would be a 21 security issue? 22 MS. : Excessive. The inmates been 23 known, you know, and to start fires. Suicide 24 inmates, that's excessive for them. 25 Definitely. EFTA00116502

151 1 MR. : So, inmates that came off of 2 suicide watch, or is, like, an observation, 3 they shouldn't have -? 4 MS. : No. They shouldn't have that 5 much linen. 6 MR. : Okay. You would - I know 7 you've been speaking - but you don't know where 8 exactly he hung himself, or where the body was 9 found, or anything like that? 10 MS. : No. I don't know. 11 MR. : Do you know if - for 12 instance, this, this looks like potentially 13 where he hung himself from - do you know if 14 this was placed back up there, or if that 15 remained there, undisturbed? 16 MS. : I don't know. 17 MR. : You don't know. Okay. 18 So, where is now? 19 MS. : I'm assuming she's here. 20 MR. : Okay. So, she still 21 works here? 22 MS. : Yes. Oh -- 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : -- that's what you mean. 25 Yeah. EFTA00116503

152 1 MR. : And she's still an -- 2 MS. : SIS. 3 MR. : -- an SIS? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. So, she would be 6 really the person - she took photos - she would 7 be the person to ask about -- 8 MS. : Yes. She did take photos. 9 MR. : -- these things? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. Thank you. 12 MS. : Mm-hmm. No problem. 13 MR. : Did she have any 14 involvement with investigation? Was she here 15 prior to your arrival? 16 MS. : I don't know if she was here. 17 MR. : Was that -? 18 MS. : No. She wasn't here. No. 19 She wasn't here. 20 MR. : So, she came after -- 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : -- you arrived. And did 23 you immediately say, go take photographs, or 24 what did you tell her to do? 25 MS. : We went up to do the photo -. EFTA00116504

153 1 Tape the door up. We went up to tape the door 2 up. I don't remember at what point she took 3 photographs of the cell. 4 MR. : But it wasn't that day? 5 MS. : No. I don't think she went 6 inside -. Because it was blocked off. So, 7 nobody went inside that day. We just took the 8 angle you see of the door. Just so we could 9 show that we taped it off. 10 MR. : Did the FBI go in that 11 day? 12 MS. : When they came, yes. 13 MR. : Okay. SIS did not go in 14 that day? 15 MS. : No. 16 MR. : Just the FBI? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Was there video taken, or 21 just pictures? 22 MS. : I don't know. We didn't take 23 any videos. 24 MR. : Okay. Nothing? 25 MR. : Oh, no. Okay. It sounds EFTA00116505

154 1 like the FBI is the people to talk about, with 2 the - as far as who went in there first, to -- 3 MS. : Yeah. They went in -- 4 MR. : -- to take pictures. 5 MS. : -- we just escorted them up. 6 I escorted them up there, and -. 7 MR. : Do you know if anything - 8 after they removed Epstein's body from the cell 9 - do you know if they, anybody went back into 10 that cell? 11 MS. : I don't know. 12 MR. : You don't know? 13 MS. : I don't know. 14 MR. : Prior to the FBI going 15 in? 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : When Epstein was brought up 18 to the hospital, do you know what he was 19 wearing? Do you know if there was an inventory 20 stuff on the -? You know, the clothes that was 21 on him. What happened to the stuff that was 22 inventoried? 23 MS. : I don't know. 24 MR. : Was anything brought back? 25 MS. : No. Nothing was brought EFTA00116506

155 1 back. But the disk with the pictures they took 2 out there. 3 MR. : Do you know, did you hear of 4 when R&D, was any R&D officers sent to the 5 hospital? 6 MS. : I don't know if the officers 7 was there. The supervisor, Mr. went out 8 to the hospital. 9 MR. : And when they go out on a 10 situation like this, do they go to the hospital 11 with anything with them? Like cameras. 12 MS. : Yeah. You took the pictures. 13 And he - I think he did the fingerprints. 14 MR. : So, he did take pictures? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : It's on a camera provided by 17 MCC? 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : And he took fingerprints 20 also? 21 MS. : I think he did fingerprints 22 also. 23 MR. : Did he also take a video, 24 or just camera pictures? 25 MS. : Just pictures. EFTA00116507

156 1 MR. : Do you know where those 2 pictures are? 3 MS. : On my home drive. 4 MR. : Okay. Is that another 5 thing that we can ask you to send to us, as 6 well -- 7 MS. : Okay. 8 MR. : -- to make it a little 9 less, and then we'll send in an email out. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MS. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : Is there a reason -? 13 MS. : (Indiscernible *01:49:37). 14 Oh, it's (Indiscernible *01:49:39). I was -. 15 Because I had a binder, too. I was -. I'm 16 just trying to brainstorm, see if I could get 17 it to you guys while you're here. That's what 18 19 MR. : Is there a reason why 20 - sorry - that went to the hospital, 21 took pictures on his personal phone, and texted 22 that over to the AW? 23 MS. : I didn't even know he went to 24 the hospital. This is the first I'm hearing he 25 went to the hospital. EFTA00116508

157 1 MR. : He said he was under the 2 impression that the R&D did come in with the 3 camera, but they left without taking any 4 pictures, and they took the camera with them. 5 MS. : I don't know why he was under 6 the impression because he brought the camera 7 back, and I downloaded the pictures off of it. 8 MR. : Is there any policy about 9 just anyone, you know, C.O.s, any BOP employees 10 taking pictures on their personal phone, for 11 suicide, or anyone like that? 12 MS. : You shouldn't be taking any. 13 MR. : Are you familiar -- 14 MS. : Any pictures. 15 MR. : -- if there's any policy like 16 that? 17 MS. : I don't know if it's a 18 policy. I don't know. 19 MR. : But as far as you know, you 20 never got those pictures? 21 MS. : From Mr. ? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MS. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 25 questions in regards to that topic? EFTA00116509

158 1 MR. : Nope. 2 MR. : Have you heard - did you hear 3 anything about doors in the SHU being left 4 unlocked? 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. : Was there ever any issues 7 about C.O.s possibly leaving the SHU doors 8 unlocked, the tiers doors unlocked, so it's 9 easier to walk in and out? 10 MS. : I don't know. 11 MR. : Okay. What about cell doors? 12 Did you ever hear any rumors about possibly 13 that cell doors in Epstein's tier was left 14 unlocked? 15 MS. : No. I never heard it. 16 MR. : What is your 17 understanding of how Epstein -? Of what 18 happened with Epstein? 19 MS. : My understanding was, they 20 found him, I guess sitting on the floor, with 21 rope around his neck. And I don't know who 22 went in the cell first. But I did hear was 23 Mr. Thomas, Ms. Noel. I heard Lieutenant 24 and I don't remember who it was from medical. 25 MR. : As far as when he was a , EFTA00116510

159 1 found, though, was it your understanding that 2 he did whatever happened to him, to himself? 3 MS. : That's what my understanding 4 was. 5 MR. : Do you have any 6 information at all that would suggest that 7 Epstein did not harm himself, and that someone 8 else harmed him? 9 MS. : No. 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Did he have any threats from 12 other inmates? 13 MS. : I don't know. 14 MR. : Okay. Anything else? 15 MR. : Nope. 16 MR. : Did you ever interact with 17 Epstein while he was at the -? 18 MS. : When I did the first suicide 19 attempt, allegedly. 20 MR. : After that. Have there been 21 any interactions? 22 MS. : No interaction. I just seen 23 him in attorney area because he did his 24 attorney visits pretty much all day. So, if I 25 would walk by and see him, I will step in and EFTA00116511

160 1 ask him was he okay. Normally, he will just 2 give the thumbs up, and you know, I will walk 3 away. But if I see him, I definitely will ask. 4 You know, you okay, anything you need? And he 5 will just throw the thumbs up. 6 MR. : Was he given any special 7 privileges here at the MCC? 8 MS. : Not that I know of. 9 MR. : Being that -. What is your 10 understanding about him having attorney 11 conference every day? Did you know that he was 12 in attorney conference pretty much every day, 13 from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.? 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : Was that something that was 16 afforded to other inmates? 17 MS. : I've seen it done before. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : So, it's happened in the 21 past? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. So, it's not just him? 24 MS. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : Okay. Do you know which EFTA00116512

163. 1 other inmates? 2 MR. : No. We don't need to 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : I don't know. 5 MR. : I got nothing else on the -. 6 MR. : So, these are - when we 7 were talking about count slips previously - 8 this is what I was talking about. So, do you 9 see, all these other counts, this was the 10:00 10 p.m. count on August 9th. All these other 11 count slips have crosses all over them. 12 They're checking, you know, say, from our 13 understanding, it says as one, different things 14 come in, they check them off. 15 MS. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Well, these two that one 17 is from R&D, and one is from the SHU, one) they 18 don't have the check marks coming off of; and 19 two) they ZA one, which is the SHU, says 73+1. 20 And the R&D says 9S+1. Do you know anything 21 about that? 22 MS. : No. I don't know what the 23 plus one stands for. 24 MR. : No. Do you know anything 25 about, like, ghost counting, or anything of EFTA00116513

162 1 that nature? 2 MS. : I've heard them ghost count 3 before. If an inmate was in medical during a 4 count. 5 MR. : Would they put, like 6 MS. : One. 7 MR. : -- a plus one on the slip 8 if they're ghost counting? 9 MS. : I've never seen. I've never 10 seen a plus one, when I've taken a count. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : To be honest with you. I've 13 never seen a plus one. 14 MR. : And when you said that 15 you were handling the count slips, or 16 collecting them, did you remember seeing 17 anything like that, with the 9S+1, or the -? 18 MS. : I don't remember. 19 MR. : You don't remember? 20 MS. : I don't remember. 21 MR. : Is that very abnormal to 22 you, that those things are on there? 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : Yes. I would have sent this EFTA00116514

163 1 count slip back because plus one -- 2 MR. : Or it -- 3 MS. : -- doesn't tell me -. 4 MR. : -- it may have been the 5 people that were doing the count, that wrote 6 it, is actually where the thought is. 7 MS. : Oh, I don't know. 8 MR. : But you don't know. 9 MS. : I've never seen a plus one. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : In terms of, if there is 12 possibly a suicide, is there, during training, 13 are C.O.s taught what actions to take if they 14 think that there's a possible suicide attempt 15 in a cell? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : What is the training? 18 MS. : We get suicide prevention 19 training yearly, during annual refresher 20 training, the psychology conduct mock 21 exercises. 22 MR. : And what do they teach you? 23 Like, if you see something. If you see 24 possible suicide. What is the C.O. supposed to 25 do? EFTA00116515

164 1 MS. : First, you're going to yell 2 for help, or for a supervisor, but when you 3 have another staff member with you, you could 4 open the door and attempt to free that person, 5 if - for instance - if it's a noose or 6 something to that effect. 7 MR. : They don't have to wait for 8 other C.O.s to respond? 9 MS. : Well, it is recommended that 10 you have somebody with you. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : It is recommended that you 13 have somebody with you. 14 MR. : Recommended, not 15 required? 16 MS. : I don't think it's required 17 MR. : Is there part of the 18 security part where it could be a rouse to get 19 you in, and then they could overthrow you? 20 MS. : Absolutely. Absolutely. 21 MR. : So, is that why -? So, 22 our understanding was that it was actually a 23 requirement that you're not supposed to go in - 24 - 25 MS. : By yourself. EFTA00116516

165 1 MR. : -- by yourself. 2 MS. : Just in case there is a fake 3 attempt or something to get in you. 4 MR. : Anything else? 5 MR. : Nope. 6 MR. : I got nothing else in my line 7 of questioning. 8 MR. : Great. Yeah, no. So, 9 there is no, nothing for you to believe that 10 Epstein did anything other than take his own 11 life? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : Okay. And then, that 14 these other things were just systematic 15 failures. What do you think overall led to 16 Epstein being able to take his own life? 17 MS. : I want to say the systematic 18 failures, the breakdown with, you know, 19 although we don't know the previous attempt, we 20 don't know the logistics, right? So, if we 21 know we had this inmate, we should have been 22 watching him a little bit better, I think. 23 MR. : So, do you think the main 24 reasons would be, if counts and rounds weren't 25 being conducted, would that be a big factor EFTA00116517

166 1 into why he was able to kill himself? 2 MS. : Yes. I would say so, because 3 if you know nobody is walking around. 4 MR. : What about the fact that 5 he didn't have a cellmate, and he was supposed 6 to have a cellmate? 7 MS. : That, as well. 8 MR. : Do you think one of them 9 is more important than the other? Or do they 10 go hand in hand? 11 MS. : I think they go hand in hand. 12 MR. : Okay. So, they're both 13 as equally -- 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : -- as important. Is 16 there anything else, aside from those two main 17 issues, that you think led to Epstein's death? 18 MS. : I really can't say. I don't 19 know. 20 MR. : Okay. Anything that we 21 didn't ask you, that we should know about? 22 MS. : No. You guys pretty much -- 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MS. : -- much asked -- 25 MR. : No. I know we EFTA00116518

167 1 MS. : -- everything. 2 MR. : -- we covered a lot. 3 Great. 4 MR. : Well, thank you for taking 5 the time to talk to us today. 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Can we just have -- 8 MS. : No problem. 9 MR. : -- her initial? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. So, the thing 12 that, we just - so that we know we talked, that 13 all these have to get attached to the 14 recording. If you could just initial. For 15 instance, this pack. Just initial the top 16 photograph, because there's anything -- 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- so you don't have to 19 go through none of those. But the things that 20 we discussed, if you don't mind just -- 21 MS. : No problem. 22 MR. : -- initialing and dating. 23 And today's date is -- 24 MS. : The 23rd. Correct? 25 MR. : -- correct. So, 9/23/21. EFTA00116519

168 1 MS. : Oh, I feel special. I got a 2 new pen. Oh. 3 MR. : Oh. There goes that. I just 4 had the other pen. Okay, there you go, sir. 5 MS. : Yeah. 6 MR. : I apologize. 7 MS. : Okay. 8 MR. : And it goes government pens. 9 MR. : Anything else? 10 MR. : No. 11 MS. : (Indiscernible *01:59:01). 12 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:59:15). 13 MR. : Okay. Thank you very 14 much. 15 MS. : Yeah. No problem. 16 MR. : Is that all of it? The 17 things we covered. 18 MR. : I'm just looking for -- 19 MR. : You have the most -- 20 MR. : -- oh, that's everything. 21 MR. : -- beautiful handwriting 22 I think I've ever seen. It's like calligraphy. 23 MS. : Oh, really? I thought it 24 was, like, chicken scratch and all over the 25 place. EFTA00116520

1 MR. 2 was, like, wow. 3 MS. 4 MR. 5 it? 6 MR. 7 the interview. 8 September 23rd, 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 169 : No. And once I saw it, I That is pretty impressive. Okay. : Okay You want to end Yeah. So, we're going to end The time is 11:19 a.m. on 2021. This is Special Agent I'm ending the interview. EFTA00116521

170 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00116522