101 1 : That could be their round. 2 : -- of a round. 3 : That could be an interpretation 4 -. 5 : And others - another 6 Lieutenant could go and say, "Hey, I want to 7 conduct a count with you." And another one 8 would say -- 9 : Yeah. 10 : -- "No, I'm just going to 11 - I'm going to pop in." 12 : Everybody is different. Yes. 13 : Right. But policy never 14 said they needed to actually put eyes on the 15 inmates just to pop in and say, "Hi." 16 : Yeah. Where does it say it? 17 Show me. Because I -. 18 : That's what I'm asking. 19 : I don't - I never seen it. 20 : Okay. 21 : I never seen it. 22 : It's not a gotcha you, 23 we're asking -. 24 : No. 25 : We're literally asking -- EFTA00059771

102 1 : I know. 2 : -- you as the 3 (Indiscernible *01:18:22) -. 4 : I know because you don't know, 5 but I'm telling you, the 30 minute round sheet, 6 right, after, and even before Epstein, you 7 know, they had it - it was, we had them on the 8 ranges so the two can physically, you know, be 9 accurate with, you know, with what you had to 10 write, or whatever. They're printed sheets. 11 Right? The dates change. Some of them are 12 handwritten. Everybody's interpretation of a 13 round is different. I was an officer. I don't 14 forget my roots, so when I make a round, I make 15 a round. 16 : Does policy state what a 17 round consists of? Can I find that in policy? 18 : A 30 minute round? I mean, 19 checking on the inmates. It says in policy, 20 inmates that are in 30 minute - I mean, that 21 are in the continuous lock down situation, all 22 right, want to quote policy, are supposed to be 23 checked on every 30 minutes. Right? And then 24 the special policy says in Special Housing, 25 because they are continuously locked down and EFTA00059772

103 1 technically on morning watch, everybody is 2 supposed to go check on inmates. 3 : That description of rounds, 4 does that apply to a Lieutenant's round or is 5 that something different? 6 : That round applies - it doesn't 7 say, "Lieutenant," it just says that you're 8 supposed to -. 9 : What he's saying is that, 10 Lieutenant rounds, they're doing rounds with 11 their staff members and they can choose to go 12 in and do the inmate rounds if they want. Is a 13 correctional officer round is doing a round of 14 the inmates? 15 : Yeah, correctional officers 16 look at the inmates. So what you want me to do 17 as a supervisor for eight hours is sit with the 18 officer? 19 : No. 20 : No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm 21 just saying. If it got - see everybody - I got 22 to go around, see everybody, make sure I don't 23 people - make sure people are awake because if 24 I'm awake, you're awake. Okay, if I'm walking 25 around, I'm up. EFTA00059773

104 1 : We were just trying to get 2 (Indiscernible *01:20:33). 3 : No, no, no. I know. I just - 4 I'm just - I know that's what the policy 5 states. But everybody, like I said, their 6 interpretation of the policy is different, and 7 like myself, I'm checking on inmates. 8 Sometimes when I go in the housing unit, I want 9 to walk down the range. But do I walk down the 10 range of every housing unit? No. 11 : Is it ever acceptable 12 for, you know, even from the midnight to, you 13 know, 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. or midnight until 14 8:00 a.m., ever acceptable for any staff in the 15 SHU to fall asleep? 16 : No, it's not acceptable. 17 : And it's not acceptable 18 even if one staff says, "I'm going to sleep, 19 you stay awake." 20 : No, it's not acceptable. 21 : Okay. Not acceptable. 22 Great. 23 : Now, we are human. Right? So, 24 on occasion, "Hey, get up, go take a walk." 25 : But if both are -- EFTA00059774

105 1 : Throw some water. 2 : -- both are sitting there 3 falling asleep together, that's not -. 4 : Somebody got - that's - then 5 that's - hey, I can't -. 6 : Okay. 7 : You know. It's just like this. 8 I do hospital trips. I can't go to sleep. 9 Okay? Especially if we have one weapon on a 10 hospital trip. So you go to sleep and you got 11 the weapon, I'm dead. Or, we live in a world, 12 now everybody carries a cell phone, cha-ching. 13 : Yep. 14 : So, I just - I stood the watch, 15 I ain't sleeping. Stood the watch. 16 : Sure. You mentioned the 17 files that are printed out on Sundays and then 18 you would, you know, review in the mornings 19 : Uh-huh. 20 • -- but you weren't the 21 one that printed them out, on Sundays, they 22 would. We received information that when 23 Epstein was found on the 10th, they went to get 24 the file and the file didn't really have 25 anything in it. It's pos- with the indication EFTA00059775

106 1 that someone may have taken those files. Do 2 you know anything about that file being -. 3 : I know that that file was there 4 when I left. 5 : Do you know if it had -. 6 : That's all I know. 7 : Do you remember how many 8 documents were in that file? 9 : It was limited. 10 : So it was very little? 11 : Yeah. 12 : Only a few pieces of 13 paper then? 14 : Yeah. 15 : And was that because if 16 he was placed in the house - the SHU on the 17 30th, there's only one Sunday that went by 18 since he was found, I guess, on a Saturday, the 19 next - there's only one day that would have had 20 information in there? Would that be why it was 21 limited? 22 : Remember, he was in SHU from 23 the time that he got there, right? He was 24 taken out of SHU, he was placed with a bunkie. 25 He tried to hang himself. He went down, he was EFTA00059776

107 1 on suicide watch. I don't know how long he was 2 on suicide watch. But he was on suicide watch 3 and we got that email. And I got that email, I 4 got a call from the Captain, so the Warden. 5 Then I heard from the Warden looking for a 6 bunkie for him. You got to vet them and it's 7 not coming from me, it's coming from the top. 8 Okay. So I said, "All right," so I'm here. 9 was still there, the Warden was still 10 there. It was getting past my time I got to be 11 back in the morning, whatever. Spoke to - when 12 I got word, they said, "We got him a bunkie." 13 Spoke to , he said, "I got it." He 14 stayed overtime that day. So, him, Reyes, was 15 placed with Epstein. Every day, I had an 16 opportunity to speak with him. I - he was on 17 suicide watch. I took him up to attorney 18 conference. While he was in SHU, he would ask 19 me for phone calls. While he was in SHU, he 20 wanted rec or whatever. I said, "You can get 21 rec." Whatever he needed, and it was there 22 from the institution, he got. Whether it was 23 clothing, tee-shirt and boxers and shower, like 24 everybody else, and he was afforded all the 25 opportunities just like every other inmate. EFTA00059777

108 1 2 3 4 So, I don't know what else you all want to know. : So you said phone calls. So would he get phone calls when he was in the 5 SHU? 6 : He was - you're afforded to get 7 a phone call. 8 : So, where would you call 9 -. 10 : When the team gives you -- 11 : Where would -. 12 : -- his pin and pad number, or 13 whatever. 14 : Where would he be able to 15 call from? 16 : But - huh? 17 : Where would -. 18 : On the range. He would get it 19 on the range. 20 : Not in the SHU then? 21 : Yeah, in the SHU. 22 : That's where you plug it 23 into? 24 : Yeah, plug it in -- 25 : Now, would -- EFTA00059778

109 1 -- one of the jacks. 2 : -- would they be 3 monitored calls? 4 : Yeah. Absolutely. 5 : And then you like 6 document it 7 8 9 10 11 : Uh-huh. : -- in the log book? : Uh-huh. : All right. And then : Put it in the log book and then 12 it would be on the computer, you know, if the 13 call went through, whatever, and you can look 14 at the monitored calls. 15 : Back to the file. If 16 anything -- 17 : Uh-huh. 18 : -- that went on in the 19 should that have been documented in the file or 20 placed in the file, would that all be 21 electronically stored as well? So even if it 22 wasn't printed out, could we -- 23 : Only -. 24 : -- after the fact go in 25 and say, "This is what should have been in the EFTA00059779

110 1 file?" 2 : This is what you could do. 3 This is what you could do. You can go back and 4 ask them for the 583 packet that was created 5 when he first committed suicide. 6 : We have that, sure. 7 : Okay? There's - that's his 8 file. As this AD order, why he was placed in 9 SHU, right? 10 : But didn't you say you -- 11 : And -. 12 : -- document the food and 13 you document all that other stuff? 14 : The 292s, right? If it's not 15 printed, it might be in the system, but once 16 he's removed from the system, his BOP number, I 17 don't know what happens after that. 18 : All right. So, point 19 being is if he's no longer in the system, then 20 the file may no longer be in the -. 21 : Yeah. Just like if I go into 22 SENTRY and I will pull up his number, SENTRY 23 would tell me that he's deceased. 24 : But if he was still in 25 the system, should all the - whatever was in -. EFTA00059780

111 1 : He can't - because SENTRY and 2 BOPWare talks, it's live, it's almost like 3 live. 4 : Uh-huh. 5 : So the moment an inmate is 6 moved from one housing unit to another housing 7 unit, his picture is taken from that - he's no 8 longer on that housing unit no more. He's on 9 this housing unit. Right? And if he's placed 10 in SHU, the inmate picture still can be on the 11 file, but his location will show that he's 12 housed in SHU. 13 : But will all the 14 documents that were created in, you know, in 15 the SHU, would they all be maintained somewhere 16 in the system? 17 : Well, you could go back, I 18 don't know how long it is, but I know that I 19 had to pull records for an inmate that had left 20 prior to, or whatever. If it was documented, 21 it's probably still there, I don't know. 22 : Alright. 23 : But it may be in the system. 24 So, but that - it's some way you got to play 25 with the system to go back. It's like post EFTA00059781

112 1 292s or something like that, like when they 2 leave. Unit team can see whatever and can pull 3 it. 4 : You had mentioned that - 5 you were saying that Epstein was always 6 afforded clothing and things like that. 7 : Uh-huh. 8 : So I guess in his cell, 9 he had an abundant amount of linens and 10 clothing in there. 11 : Well, I don't know. 12 : Now who was the one who 13 would provide the clothing? 14 : The officers. 15 : And would they - are they 16 supposed to maintain how much -. 17 : It's supposed to be one for one 18 exchange. 19 : Okay. So, if he's got a 20 lot of that stuff in there, that would be 21 something to talk to the officers about? 22 : Yeah. And sometimes inmates 23 hide it, you know, under the mattress or 24 whatever, but the officers would have to, you 25 know, they're supposed to shake it down, so. EFTA00059782

113 1 : And that's not something 2 that you were aware of? 3 : What do you mean? 4 : You weren't aware that he 5 had extra linens or clothing? 6 : No, I wasn't aware of that. 7 : Okay. 8 : Yeah. 9 : What about, so we 10 recently learned that Epstein was actually in a 11 cell that he wasn't assigned to when he was 12 found. So, about six days before, I think he 13 was moved to a different cell but they never 14 reassigned that cell to him. 15 : Because the cell rotation was - 16 they probably did cell rotations. 17 : Right. 18 : Moved him and his bunkie to 19 another cell and didn't key it. 20 : Now, who was responsible 21 for keying it? 22 23 rotation. 24 : The person that did the cell : Okay. So it's not like 25 the Officer in Charge or the Lieutenant, it's EFTA00059783

114 1 whoever did the cell rotation is the one that 2 would -. 3 : It's not the Lieutenant. 4 : Okay. 5 : It comes up, the next day I 6 check it, 21 day cell rotation. Before I 7 leave, I verify it and make sure that it's 8 done. 9 : So if six days before 10 August 9th, which would put us at like, you 11 know, August 3rd or something, he was moved but 12 the cell was never reassigned to him. Is that 13 something that you would have reviewed? 14 : He was moved when? 15 : We're told six days 16 prior, he was moved, but his - he was located 17 in a cell that wasn't actually assigned to him. 18 So the assumption is that, like you said, it 19 was a cell rotation but they never went and 20 keyed - you know the cell was never keyed to 21 him. He was still assigned to a different 22 cell. 23 : I don't know (Indiscernible 24 *01:30:50). 25 : All right. You don't EFTA00059784

115 1 know? 2 3 : Huh-uh. No. : Because I'm sure, as you 4 can imagine, the conspiracy theorists out there 5 6 : Yeah. 7 : -- are going to say like, 8 "Well, he wasn't in the cell he was assigned 9 to?" But you're not aware of that information? 10 : Naw. Huh-uh. 11 : But yet and - whoever 12 is anyone in charge of the cell rotation or who 13 is 14 : Well, the OIC, who - you know, 15 the day watch OIC is in charge, you know, of 16 making sure of cell rotations and things get 17 done. It's printed out daily to see on the 18 paper about cell rotations. Because the region 19 looks at that, you know, if somebody is in the 20 cell past 20 something days - actually, the 21 Captain is supposed to review and look at that, 22 you know. 23 : But you're -. 24 : But I look at it as well -- 25 : You look at it? EFTA00059785

116 1 2 Yeah. 3 : -- as the SHU Lieutenant. : And you never noticed it? 4 : If I'm running a roster, huh- 5 uh, no. 6 : You didn't notice that? 7 : Huh-uh. Because, I'm making 8 sure he got a bunkie. That's - if he - if it's 9 two people in the cell, I'm - you know. 10 : Right. 11 : And I get around to checking, 12 you know, it could have been a billion things 13 that I've been doing. 14 : Sure. 15 : You know, I was stretched thin. 16 You can look at those rosters and see how - me, 17 I'm supposed to be the SHU Lieutenant and 18 everywhere I worked. 19 : Okay. And as SH - no, 20 that's 21 : Go ahead. 22 • 23 24 answer. 25 : No, no, no. : No. You can answer - I'll : I was just going to say, EFTA00059786

117 1 you're stretched thin. What is your, like, 2 primary function when you're in there? 3 : When I'm in SHU? 4 : Yeah. 5 : I run the building, from SHU. 6 To, you know, just making sure - I try to make 7 sure that everybody is doing what they're 8 supposed to do. I'm checking on these inmates 9 myself and I'm making sure to keep this - 10 because it's already a stressful environment, 11 so I'm making sure, you know, people are 12 getting showered, you know, I'm making sure, 13 you know, I'm trying to, you know, we didn't 14 have rec for a long time, you know. At that 15 time, we had, you know, two rec officers. 16 Sometimes our rec officers are not there, you 17 know, and we're all helping each other, you 18 know. Showers was every Monday, Wednesday and 19 Friday, you know. So we're trying making sure 20 inmates got, you know, hygiene and things of 21 that nature is being taken care of. 22 : Okay. Back to that phone 23 call. That is authorized to let inmates in the 24 SHU have phone calls on unrecorded lines? 25 : Have to be approved by the Unit EFTA00059787

118 1 Manager. 2 : Okay. 3 : And that's only for legal 4 calls. 5 : Okay. 6 : And that has to be 7 : (Indiscernible 8 *01:33:46). 9 : -- you know, a request by an 10 inmate, then approved by the Unit Manager. I 11 don't do unmonitored phone calls. 12 : Oh, I'm sorry. I thought 13 you said that you would allow Epstein to call 14 from the SHU. 15 : No, I said, he would be 16 afforded a phone call, right, and it would be, 17 you know, he would have to have his pin and pad 18 number, not an unmonitored call. I don't do 19 that. 20 : But did he have a pin and 21 pad number? 22 : I don't know. His unit team 23 should have gave him a pin pad number. 24 : Okay. 25 : I don't know if he had it or EFTA00059788

119 1 not. 2 3 4 : But I thought -. : He never mentioned that to. : But I thought you said 5 that you would allow him -. 6 : No, I said, he would be 7 afforded. It's a difference. 8 : Because - yeah, you -. 9 : Don't switch the words. He 10 would be afforded, like everybody else that 11 comes to Special Housing, they are afforded a 12 phone call. 13 : So maybe is it wording, 14 because I had that written down too. 15 : No, (Indiscernible 16 *01:34:31) -. 17 : Because I think you said it 18 too. I think that's how -. 19 : Yeah. Because we talked 20 about it. Just, we got to make sure that we're 21 clear on these things. 22 : Yeah. 23 : So that's - do you recall 24 Epstein ever calling from the SHU? 25 : I never gave him a phone call. EFTA00059789

120 1 2 3 4 5 6 call. : Okay. : All right. : I never seen -- : Did you give this -. -- an officer give him a phone 7 : This is when we talked 8 about, you know, Epstein would want to make 9 : Uh-huh. 10 : -- phone calls. He would 11 want to have his clothing -- 12 : Yeah. 13 : -- and stuff like that. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : So, you actually never 16 gave Epstein a call. 17 : I never gave him a phone call. 18 : All right. Because -- 19 : Ever. 20 : I believe that's when 21 we talked about, what, did you just plug it 22 into the line in the SHU -- 23 : Yeah, that's what -- 24 -- and you said 25 -- happens but I never gave him EFTA00059790

121 1 a phone call. 2 : All right. 3 : Ever. 4 : And then we talked about, 5 would you just log it in the book? You'd 6 monitor their call. So never - you don't know 7 8 : I never gave him a phone call. 9 : All right. And the 10 clothing, you never gave him extra clothing? 11 : Not - never gave him extra 12 clothing, no. 13 : All right. And you were 14 in - did his cell ever get shook down or 15 checked? 16 : It should have, yeah. 17 : It should have? 18 : Uh-huh. 19 : And at that point, they 20 should have seen that there's a lot of extra 21 clothing and linens in there? 22 : They shake the cells down. 23 I've seen a lot of extra clothing and stuff 24 laying on the range. 25 : And were you ever present EFTA00059791

122 1 for any Epstein cell shake downs? 2 : No. 3 : No? 4 : Huh-uh. Well, you know what? 5 I was. I remember one of the officers say, 6 "Oh, he had this in the cell and they took it 7 out." Yeah. 8 : What did he have? 9 : I think it was an extra blanket 10 or something like that. They took it out. 11 : All right. And we he 12 authorized to have like pills and things like 13 that in there? Medication? 14 : Yes. They are authorized 15 Medical comes up and gives them medication. 16 : Are you aware of any of 17 the staff when you weren't present not 18 conducting counts and rounds -. 19 : Naw. Huh-uh. 20 : No? 21 : Not on my watch. What? 22 : Should we - so. 23 : Passing over to you. 24 Sorry, do you have a question? 25 : Okay. Yeah. Let's say you EFTA00059792

123 1 2 3 4 were at work on the 9th. You're not, but let's just say you were at work on the 9th. Reyes is taken out sometime between 7:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., he's brought to court. 5 : Uh-huh. 6 : MCC wouldn't know the fact 7 that, "Hey, he's not coming back," but somehow 8 9 : They would know after the 5 10 o'clock count. Perhaps. 11 : Let's just say, I'm just 12 saying hypothetically. 13 : Uh-huh. When the courts 14 return. 15 : Let's say between 1:00 and 16 2:00 p.m. -- 17 : Uh-huh. 18 -- MCC is notified, "Hey, 19 listen, he's not coming back and he's WAB." 20 : Uh-huh. 21 : Who would have got notified? 22 It would have came through -. 23 : R&D. 24 : R&D? And R&D would have 25 notified who? EFTA00059793

124 1 : They should have notified the 2 AW or notified their supervisor. 3 : Would they have notified the 4 OIC in the SHU? 5 : It depends on who's the 6 officer, I don't know. 7 : Okay. 8 : But they wouldn't be 9 required to let the housing unit 10 : They would -. 11 : -- where they came from? 12 No? 13 : After the court list comes out, 14 or whatever, the count changes on the El. If 15 they get - if the courts kept them, or 16 whatever, so whoever that R&D staff is, I don't 17 know what their protocols are, whatever, but - 18 because it's a whole different department but 19 we all work together. As a Lieutenant, only 20 way I would catch it on - probably on morning 21 watch or on - if I'm evening watch, when I'm 22 doing my log and I run the 38, the daily change 23 log, and depending on what I'm looking at, I'm 24 going to see who's off my base count. The 25 morning watch Lieutenant is going to write down EFTA00059794

125 1 2 3 4 everybody who left the institution the prior day. : I know. But I'm asking, let's say the notification did come between 5 1:00 and 2:00. 6 : Uh-huh. 7 : You are - let's say you were 8 at work 9 : Uh-huh. 10 and that notification came 11 down to the SHU and they were notified. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : If you were at work, what 14 steps would you have taken? 15 : I would have called the Captain 16 and, like, well, you know, his bunkie, you 17 know, has left and I would have let the Captain 18 know that we have to find him a new bunkie -- 19 : Okay. 20 : -- and if they would, you know, 21 have somebody. 22 : You were not at work that 23 day, so -- 24 : No. 25 : -- who would have been in EFTA00059795

126 1 charge? Which Lieutenant would have been in 2 charge? Would that be 3 : If it's between 4 : Would it be the 5 Operations Lieutenant? 6 : If it was between one and two, 7 depends on - yeah. 8 : If was aware of it, 9 what should he have done? 10 : He should have called Special 11 Housing, "Hey, this guy need a bunkie." 12 : Okay. And -. 13 : But if Epstein was downstairs, 14 nobody wouldn't have known because he's with 15 his attorneys. 16 : But wouldn't have they 17 known the Special Housing Unit was informed 18 that Epstein's bunkie was being removed, 19 wouldn't that queue them in on that when 20 Epstein returns he's not going to have a 21 bunkie? 22 : That could have - that's 23 possible. 24 : Okay. 25 : Now let's say there were no EFTA00059796

127 1 notification ever made - let's just go through 2 the who process. When is the first time they 3 would actually catch the fact that Epstein 4 didn't have a bunkie? 5 : You make rounds, you make a 6 round, "Oh, shit, you're by yourself. Hey, but 7 he need a bunkie." 8 : So any one of the 30 9 minute rounds. 10 : Yeah. Uh-huh. 11 : So basically, if he came 12 back at, let's say, 7:00 p.m., by 7:30 they 13 should have known? 14 : Yeah. 15 : And certainly by the 16 10:00 p.m. count? 17 : Yes. Most definitely, because 18 it depends on - all right, the attorney 19 conference goes from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., 20 right? Attorneys can start coming in at 8 21 o'clock in the morning. So if he's down there, 22 let's say he went down 10 o'clock. Right? 23 : Uh-huh. 24 : And he's down there from 10:00 25 to 7:30 p.m., whatever that time. Then he has EFTA00059797

128 1 to be escorted back upstairs. Right? So after 2 8 o'clock, there's no more attorney visits that 3 they're, you know, they're gone for the day, 4 inmate goes back, he gets stripped out, he gets 5 placed in the cell. At that time, you see he 6 doesn't have a bunkie. 7 : Yeah, once he's escorted 8 back into his room, right? 9 10 11 12 : Yeah. : Into the cell. : Uh-huh. : As soon as whoever 13 escorted him -- 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : -- back to the cell 16 should have known, "Hey, I'm putting him back 17 in a -- 18 : He don't have a bunkie. 19 I'm putting this guy 20 back in a cell without anybody in here." 21 : Yeah. He doesn't have a 22 bunkie. 23 : And when you escort -- 24 : So -. 25 : -- somebody in the cell, EFTA00059798

129 1 you always verify who is in there. 2 : Yeah. Because you have to open 3 - you have to look and make sure somebody in 4 there because the inmates have to be cuffed. 5 : Okay. 6 : So he had to be cuffed or he 7 should have been cuffed, placed on the range 8 and when they crack that door, before they 9 crack that door to make sure somebody is in 10 there. If nobody was in there, somebody should 11 have got the horn and, "Hey, he don't have a 12 bunkie." 13 : So, at -. 14 : By the 10 o'clock count, it 15 should - yes. 16 : And at that point if, 17 somewhere between when he was escorted back and 18 10:00 p.m. -- 19 : Uh-huh. 20 : -- could have a new 21 bunkie been put in there with him? 22 : Perhaps, yeah. 23 : Just perhaps? Not 24 25 a hard cell -- Or he could have been placed in EFTA00059799

130 1 : Okay. 2 : -- by his self. 3 : But one or the other 4 should have happened? 5 : Yeah. 6 : He shouldn't have -. 7 : If I can't find a bunkie, he's 8 going in a hard cell until the morning. 9 : And should have the SHU 10 staff 11 : That's just me. 12 : But should have the SHU 13 staff known that? 14 : No, because I don't know if the 15 SHU was full at that time. I don't recall, you 16 know, because I didn't do a kick out list, so. 17 : Okay. So if there's 72 18 inmates in the SHU, is that full? 19 : Yes. 20 : That's pretty full? 21 : Yeah, it's full. And we have 22 down cells, so. 23 : But earlier that day it 24 was like 76 or 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059800

131 1 or something? 2 : Yeah, we were full. So, we had 3 the two hard cells, well, three, because we 4 have a suicide cell and they probably had a 5 housing rec alone, that's on J Tier and then 6 you got the two hard cells on H Tier. 7 : But regardless 8 : Uh-huh. 9 the SHU people from 10 7:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m., that would have been, 11 it looks like , he was on from 4:00 p.m. 12 to midnight. 13 : Uh-huh. 14 : Somebody should have 15 notified or at least 16 : Uh-huh, that he was by his 17 self. 18 : And would it be one or 19 the other, or 20 : Well, the Activities 21 Lieutenant, if they went to SHU to make rounds, 22 or whatever, one of them - somebody should have 23 known. 24 : Okay. They should have 25 notified those people. EFTA00059801

132 1 : Yeah. 2 : What about the next 3 shift? So Noel and Thomas are on from midnight 4 to 8:00 a.m. When they know during their shift 5 that he is without a cell mate, should have 6 they notified someone? 7 : Yeah. Notified our Ops 8 Lieutenant, one of them. 9 : So they should notified, 10 in their case, who was the Ops 11 Lieutenant at that time. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 14 15 self." 16 : Okay. And -. : Say, "Hey, this dude is by his : Okay. And how serious do 17 you believe that to be that they're not making 18 notifications? 19 : What do you mean? 20 : So, I mean, obviously 21 someone died in this instance. Correct? 22 : Yes. 23 : Let's take that out of 24 it. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059802

133 1 : If they're in a different 2 situation, if they weren't making that 3 notification, is that serious? Is that a 4 serious infraction of policy or of, you know, 5 the correctional -- 6 : I mean -. 7 : -- duty assignments? 8 : Yeah, I mean, because, to me, I 9 had people that tried to hang themselves and I 10 work morning watch and I work evening watch. 11 I'm going to check on that individual and I'm 12 making sure they good. 13 : Sure. 14 : And I'm telling everybody, "Yo, 15 make sure you all are doing rounds because, you 16 know, not on my watch," and anybody will tell 17 you, I'm known for making big rounds, what you 18 doing? We doing big rounds, right? Rounds, 19 rounds, rounds, and we checking on inmates in 20 the Special Housing Unit. That's what I'm 21 known for. I can't account for anybody else, 22 but I know me, I'm checking on the individual. 23 : The last time you saw 24 Epstein 25 : Uh-huh. EFTA00059803

134 1 : -- what did you think of 2 his state of mind? Did he seem all right? 3 : He was a little nervous. 4 : Okay. 5 : He was a little nervous. But, 6 you know, he was just like, I was like, "You 7 all right?" "Yeah." And he looked at me, you 8 know. And he wanted to go to rec. Again, that 9 morning, he took a shower on Thursday and then 10 he went to attorney conference. 11 : Did he seem like - did he 12 give you any kind of indication that he might 13 be wanting to take his own life? 14 : Nuh-uh. 15 : No? 16 : He just was just, you know, 17 people have like a nervous feeling or whatever. 18 : Now, with a nervous, do 19 you have any reason to believe that he did not 20 take his own life? 21 : What do you mean? 22 : Someone else - 23 : No, nobody killed that man. He 24 did it himself. Nobody killed him. 25 : So you feel very EFTA00059804

135 1 confident about that? 2 3 4 be asked. 5 : Yeah. Nobody killed that man. : The question has got to : Yeah. Nobody killed him. 6 Listen, all the conspiracy theories, out the 7 window, okay? The man killed his self. Okay? 8 It's unfortunate that he did this and now, here 9 we are. But, you know, that's what cowards do, 10 you know? But I can't speak for him. He knows 11 why he did what he did. 12 13 14 : Sure. : But, nobody killed the man. : Could the officers that 15 were in the SHU see into Epstein's cell from 16 where they were seated? 17 : If he's standing at the window. 18 : No, no, I'm sorry, from 19 their desk area. 20 : Yeah, if he's standing at the 21 window, you can -. 22 : Oh, oh, oh, you mean if 23 Epstein is standing at the window. 24 : If Epstein is standing at the 25 window, you can -. EFTA00059805

136 1 : But otherwise, unless you 2 go up to the door, you can't see. 3 : Unless you go up to the door, 4 Nuh-uh. You can see if a light is on. But, 5 let me put this on record. The SHU is broken, 6 it needs to be fixed. Okay? Inmates control 7 the lights from the inside. Officers, they 8 just started now putting the lights on the 9 outside. Okay? We should be able to control 10 the lights. We should be able to flick the 11 lights on and look inside the cell. No inmate 12 should be able to press a button and look 13 inside the cell or disfigure the lights. 14 : So you don't have - you 15 didn't have the ability to actually turn the 16 lights on inside -- 17 : No. 18 : -- of their cells? 19 : No, there was a switch, but you 20 still couldn't - the inmate can press the 21 button and only one of the lights would come on 22 and if that light wasn't working, they you 23 can't see inside the cell unless you tell him 24 to get up out of their bed and put that light 25 on. Or if you have a flashlight, you know, EFTA00059806

137 1 you're flashing it in there. But, you know, 2 the cells are broken, man. They were supposed 3 to been change the cells. You know, they had 4 wooden doors for years, but not in SHU. You 5 know, they just - the range, our range, they 6 just did a couple of those doors. And some of 7 them was even falling off the hinges. 8 : Was there any 9 conversation that you recall when Epstein was 10 there of placing him into 10 South? 11 : Not that I recall. 12 : Do you believe he should 13 have been placed in 10 South versus the SHU? 14 : I mean, he's high-profile like 15 they said he was. Everybody else went up 16 there. So, you know, it was to me that he 17 would have been more closely monitored, but 18 that's not my call. 19 : And whose call is it to 20 place someone in 10 South? 21 : It's the Warden and the 22 Captain. 23 : And have you ever heard 24 that it's actually even over their head for 10 25 South? EFTA00059807

138 1 : No. Yes. That they said all 2 the inmates in 10 South are SAMS inmates. 3 : Right. And can you 4 explain what SAMS is? 5 : Special Security Measures, 6 something, you know, there's - you know, their 7 mail is handed - everything is by SIS and Unit 8 Team. A SHU Lieutenant. Anything that they get 9 comes from the SHU Lieutenant because we have 10 to keep - that's like, you know, they are - you 11 got to just make sure that they're ready to 12 stand trial. Like, I was there, you know, for 13 Juan Guzman, I was the SHU Lieutenant, and 14 nothing happened to him. 15 : What happened to him? 16 : Nothing. 17 : Oh. 18 : You know, he stood trial and he 19 was gone. 20 : Was he in 10 South? 21 : Yes. And all the other inmates 22 that was in 10 South under my watch. 23 : So Monday morning 24 quarterbacking, do you believe that Epstein 25 should have been in 10 South then? EFTA00059808

139 1 2 3 4 : Or on G Tier. : That's 10 South lower? : Yes. : Okay. Because they 5 basically accomplish the same mission. 6 : Those - yeah, because those 7 cells are hard because they're, you know, they 8 got plastic over the windows and everything, so 9 if you're going to try to do anything, you 10 know, it's really difficult. The shower 11 curtains that break away or whatever. Where 12 they can hang the towels, break away. 13 : Did you ever make that 14 suggestion to anyone? 15 : Did I make the suggestion? 16 : Uh-huh. 17 : That's not my call. 18 : Yeah, yeah, I know, I 19 just didn't know if -. 20 : Naw, that's not my call. 21 : Sure. 22 : I only do what I'm told. 23 : Absolutely. 24 : You all want some water or 25 something, you got to use the bathroom? EFTA00059809

140 1 2 thank you. 3 : No, no, no, I'm good, : You sure? 4 : Positive, thank you. 5 : What else we got? 6 : I just one other question. 7 : Uh-huh. 8 : I'm just going to show you 9 the midnight count -- 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- from August 10th. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : You just take a look at that. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : That front page is called the 16 El? 17 : Yep. 18 : What's the SHU count on that? 19 : 72. 20 : Can you take a look at the 21 count slip on the back page. 22 : The last page. 23 : You see the one for ZA? 24 What's the count on there? 25 : 73. EFTA00059810

141 1 : If you were the Lieutenant, 2 right, and that count slip came up, what would 3 you have done? 4 : I wouldn't have took it. 5 : Why? Because the -. 6 : The count is wrong. 7 : And what would you have done? 8 : Count again. 9 : You told them to count it 10 again? 11 : Uh-huh. 12 : Is there -. 13 : First, I would have - whatever 14 count that they called in, right? If I'm 15 taking the count, right? I'm the official 16 count person, okay? 17 : There should be like the 18 Ops Lieutenant I'm assuming? 19 : Uh-huh. You could take - but 20 they don't have to take the 12 o'clock count. 21 They could - he could take the 3:00 or the 22 5:00. 23 : Okay. 24 : But they have to take a count. 25 I'm different. I want to - there's times I'm EFTA00059811

142 1 even watch operations, right? I'm taking the 2 10 o'clock count, I'm taking the 12 o'clock 3 count. After the 12 o'clock count, I don't 4 have to worry about the count no more. I mean, 5 I have to worry about the count, but I'm making 6 rounds, I'm making sure everything is good. 7 Right? But I want to know what I got. This 8 number right here, is the number that I'm 9 concerned about. 10 : So if the Ops - 11 : 758 inmates. So if the ops, 12 what? 13 : So if the Ops Lieutenant 14 took that count at midnight -- 15 : Uh-huh. 16 should have they gone 17 down to the SHU and witnessed the new count? 18 : Naw, so it's only if it's a 19 double bad. 20 : Just a double bad. 21 : Yeah. 22 : One bad is not -. 23 : If it's a double bad. 24 : They don't need to get 25 eyes on? EFTA00059812

143 1 : Yeah. If it's the double bad 2 count, we got to go up with a roster, a bed 3 book roster and we, you know, we tell our 4 inmates, "Stand." At night, it's different 5 because you're supposed to see living, 6 breathing flesh. So we're not required to make 7 everybody stand. But I'm going, I'm looking, 8 we counting. That's just me. 9 : Okay. But there was no 10 requirement based on one bad count. 11 : Naw. If it's a double bad, you 12 have to go up - because sometimes they call in 13 the wrong number. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : But that's -- 16 : Have you ever heard of - 17 have you -. 18 : -- crazy. I've never heard. 19 : The (Indiscernible 20 *01:55:26) so 21 : You don't have to never worry 22 about me repeating jack. 23 : No. 24 : But this is crazy. 25 : Now, what if the person EFTA00059813

144 1 who called count into Control said that, "Hey, 2 I wrote down 73 on the slip, but one of our 3 guys is out of the unit, he's in another place, 4 but I still counted him." Does that make any 5 sense to you? What if they got - 6 : Yes, it makes sense to me, but 7 me as a Control Center officer, no, it's wrong. 8 : Right. And should have a 9 person - so say like -- 10 : So -. 11 : -- should have Noel or 12 Thomas known 13 : You want to know what I - damn, 14 I should not, oh my God. 15 : But should Noel or Thomas 16 known they shouldn't have written 73 if they 17 knew the number was 72 and one guy was 18 somewhere else? Should have they known that 19 the number was 72? 20 : You only - I'm going to put it 21 to you this way. You only write the number of 22 number of people that you have on the housing 23 unit. 24 : Okay. 25 : If you have more than the EFTA00059814

145 1 number that you have in the housing unit, that 2 means somebody is not where they're supposed to 3 be. If you have less than you have on the 4 housing unit, this tells me two things. 5 : What's that? 6 : Either -. 7 : Say it. 8 : There's nothing you can 9 surprise us with. 10 : Okay. Originally, it was 73 11 and that's the count that they called in. 12 Somebody realized, "Hey, this guy is not here. 13 Holy shit. Oh, he has - did we key him out? 14 Holy shit. We didn't key him out. Oh, key 15 that guy out." If that guy was keyed out, 16 let's say, I don't know, after 10 o'clock, 11 17 o'clock, when this was printed - this was 18 printed at 12:35, the computers don't come back 19 up until 12:30. After 12:30 you can log on the 20 computer and print if you want. 21 : Does this tell you that 22 they didn't conduct the count and they just 23 used the number that -. 24 : That says a lot of things. 25 : What does it say to you? EFTA00059815

146 1 : That says a lot of things. 2 That says a lot of things. But me, as the Ops 3 Lieutenant, I would have never accepted that. 4 : Now, if the Ops 5 Lieutenant said, "Create a new count slip and 6 send it in," would it make any sense that that 7 was still attached to this? 8 : What do you mean. 9 : So if the Ops Lieutenant 10 said, "Create a new count," -- 11 : Uh-huh. 12 : -- and they did a new 13 count and did one that said 72, would it make 14 any sense why this one that says 73 is still 15 attached? 16 : No. That one that says 73 17 shouldn't have been there 18 : And -- 19 because that's wrong. 20 : -- do you agree that the 21 people that are written there appears to be an 22 M. Thomas and a Noel? 23 : That's what it says. 24 : Just so we don't -- 25 : Uh-huh. EFTA00059816

147 1 : -- want to ever have the 2 opportunity for someone to say we showed you 3 : Uh-huh. 4 different things, so 5 can you just initial and date the top of these 6 packets so that -- 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- it's just to show -- 9 : Yeah. 10 : -- what it is you looked 11 at? 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : Did he look at any of 14 this stuff? 15 : No, I was going to -- 16 : Yeah. I looked at this. 17 -- ask something, one more 18 thing too. 19 : I'll do it. You know. 20 : Is there a reason an inmate 21 will be moved to R&D that late at night? 22 : Nope. 23 : Is it -. 24 : When is typically the 25 latest somebody be moved to R&D? EFTA00059817

148 1 : Only way that they're going to 2 R&D, right, if they're going on the bus, the 3 bus is coming. 4 : Right. 5 : And that's normally on 6 Wednesdays. 7 : And what time would they be 8 moved to R&D? 9 : After the count and -- 10 : Which count? 11 nobody is moving. If 12 they're leaving at 3:00, after the 12 o'clock 13 count. 14 : But buses are almost 15 always around Wednesdays, correct? 16 : Typically, yeah. 17 : You would have no - want 18 to know what happened on a Friday night, 19 Saturday morning. 20 : Nope, no. Only people that 21 leave the institution on a Saturday morning, 22 and that's like they come at 8 o'clock, you 23 know, the special guys that go out in the, you 24 know, they're going to Saturday court. 25 : Okay. So that - there's EFTA00059818

149 1 really no excuse for that one right there. 2 : No. 3 : On this (Indiscernible 4 *02:00:20)? Okay. 5 : No. 6 : Just had one more. 7 : Uh-huh. 8 : This is the 5:00 p.m. count, 9 I mean the 4:00 p.m. count. Can you just 10 verify that for August 9th? 11 : Uh-huh. 12 : If the call came in between 13 1:00 and 2:00 stating that Reyes - if you 14 notice under the SHU, ZA, you see the one out 15 count? 16 : Uh-huh. 17 : If between 1:00 and 2:00 the 18 call came in stating that Reyes is no longer 19 going to be in the institution, if it did, 20 should that have reflected still as one out 21 count? 22 : Yeah, because he's out. 23 : But if they said that he's 24 not coming back and he's WAB. 25 : That's R&D. EFTA00059819

150 1 : Explain that. 2 : R&D is Receiving and Discharge. 3 We don't get notified. The courts notify R&D. 4 The Marshals notify R&D. R&D has a supervisor, 5 right? On shift, they have officers that are 6 on shift, so any movement, they know - would 7 know before I would know and so they have to 8 make the proper notifications and key in in the 9 system. 10 : That's what I was going to 11 ask you. 12 : Yeah. 13 : If R&D did make that 14 notification to the SHU and who else should 15 they have notified to get that correct? 16 : The CMC would - if the CMC is 17 there, you know -. 18 : What's the CMC? 19 : The Case Manager Coordinator. 20 Yeah. Case Manager Coordinator. 21 : Who would that be on - do we 22 have the schedule? 23 : Oh, I don't know who was the 24 : Okay. This is 25 : CMC at that time. EFTA00059820

151 1 : Office (Indiscernible 2 *02:02:07) if the notification was made. 3 : No, they won't be on that 4 roster. 5 : Okay. 6 : That roster is a custody 7 roster. 8 : Okay. 9 : So, like I said, R&D is a whole 10 total different department. The court speaks 11 to them. 12 : Okay. 13 : So when the courts talk to 14 them, then they talk to us. Normally R&D, you 15 know, if they're WAB or something like that, we 16 wouldn't know until you run the 38. 17 : What do you mean 38, meaning? 18 : The daily change log. Uh-huh. 19 : Do mind just -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- with these just -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- putting it the 6/15/21 24 -- 25 : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, EFTA00059821

152 1 yeah. 2 : -- and that's just so we 3 know that -- 4 : Uh-huh. 5 : -- not only you initialed 6 but the date of this. 7 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. No problem. 8 : And then on this last 9 one, 4:00 p.m. 10 : Uh-huh. 11 : -- if you don't mind just 12 initialing it and dating as well. Thank you, 13 sir. 14 : 6/15/21. 15 : Uh-huh. 16 : Is there anything else 17 you wanted -. 18 : That's it. 19 : All right. So that's all 20 we have for you. We just wanted to know what 21 you knew with the SHU and hopefully it wasn't 22 too painful. 23 : Naw, it wasn't. 24 : Anything else you want to 25 add for the record? EFTA00059822

153 1 : No. I'm just - I wasn't there. 2 So unfortunately, what happened, happened. 3 Everybody works different. I know there's an 4 investigation, but through all the conspiracy 5 stuff, everybody, the staff that was there when 6 they found him, they worked hard to try to 7 revive him and save his life. But, 8 unfortunately, you know, it turned to a sad 9 event. But we are very well understaffed. Had 10 we had more officers - I know everybody want to 11 point the finger, but it's an unfortunate thing 12 to happen, you know? You know, a lot of things 13 have to change in the BOP, you know, but, you 14 know, I only can be as truthful and honest with 15 you as I can, you know? 16 : On that note, you just 17 made me think of one more small question. You 18 said that they did work hard on saving his 19 life. Was it okay that Thomas immediately went 20 into the cell upon seeing Epstein in the state 21 that he was in or should have he waited? 22 : He made a decision. 23 : All right so was it - do 24 you -. 25 : I would have made the same EFTA00059823

154 1 decision. 2 3 : Okay. : You know, policy states that 4 you can enter a cell if you have, you know, 5 more staff, two or more staff. You don't need 6 an immediate supervisor if it's an emergency 7 situation. 8 : All right. So if 9 somebody is telling us that, "No," they needed 10 to wait for a Lieutenant to come down there, 11 that's not correct? 12 13 14 : No. It's in the policy. : Okay. : I know the policy. 15 : So you believe that it 16 was fine for Thomas to enter. 17 : Yeah, because I would have did 18 the same thing. 19 : Okay. 20 : Yes, there's plenty of times 21 where I've seen something, we had enough staff, 22 "Let's go in there," you know, and -- 23 : And they argued 24 -- safe a life. 25 : -- that it was like a EFTA00059824

155 1 ruse in order to overthrow, you know, that 2 guard or something like that. 3 : No. That's bullshit. 4 : You just said that. You've 5 seen the situation but you've said that there's 6 enough staff, let's go in there. You never -- 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- went in there by yourself? 9 : No. 10 : That's what he was -. 11 : Yeah, so I'm - Thomas 12 went in by himself if Noel is down range, he's 13 by himself. 14 : They both on the same range? 15 : Yeah, so if she's down, 16 not with him, he goes in by himself, is that 17 okay? 18 : It's one for one. And if he 19 says it's an emergency situation, he made a 20 decision. 21 : Right. 22 : I probably would have - if I 23 see somebody hanging, I'm making a decision. 24 : Sure. 25 : I'm trying to save a life. EFTA00059825

156 1 : Uh-huh. 2 : You understand? 3 : Yeah. No, I'm only 4 asking - yeah. 5 : No, the policy states, you 6 know, it's two to one, you know, two officers 7 to one inmate. Then they came and they said, 8 "One to one ratio," but they never really 9 changed it, that's word of mouth. But it's 10 always two to one, right? If you down range 11 with me, it's two to one. So if it's an 12 emergency situation and I've activated my body 13 alarm, I'm a go get you. Okay? Now, who 14 knows, he could have been faking a funk. Come 15 in there, he came in his cell and try to 16 escape. Now you got the keys, now your SHU is 17 compromised. So it's a judgment call. But at 18 the end of the day, I've been in situations 19 where two people in my career tried to commit 20 suicide. I saved both of them. Okay? One was 21 early, I think early this year, January or 22 something or late last year. Inmate tried to 23 kill himself. I was called upstairs. I didn't 24 wait. They said, "Operations to the Special 25 Housing Unit -" I mean, Special Housing. I EFTA00059826

157 1 didn't wait. I came upstairs ASAP. They let 2 me in and the dude was hanging. I did my 583, 3 I did my notification to the Warden, right? 4 Did they thank me? No, she sent me a personal 5 email like three days later. You know who did 6 it, I did, but it's okay. I'm there for 7 officers. I'm there to save lives. I did my 8 job. Prior to that, I still had a guy, a young 9 man who was in the newspaper, gang member. 10 Okay? I saved his lift. He was hanging on J 11 Tier in a suicide cell, tried to hang himself. 12 We went in there, grabbed him with enough staff 13 and we lowered him down. After that, there was 14 a young boy. Always had a bunkie. Who was the 15 SHU Lieutenant? Me. Okay? So do I - from 16 experience, yes, I know. Do I talk to my crew? 17 Yes. Was it documented? Yes. That's all I 18 can say. 19 : So yeah, you agree with 20 his decision, it was okay? 21 : He made a decision. 22 : Absolutely. 23 : You know? 24 : Okay. 25 : All right? EFTA00059827

158 1 2 3 4 : Anything else you want to add before we turn this thing off? : Naw. : All right. It is 5 currently 8:06 p.m. on Tuesday, June 15, 2021. 6 This is Senior Special Agent 7 and I am turning off the recorder. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00059828

159 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00059829

EFTA00059830

EFTA00059831

EFTA00059832

EFTA00059833

EFTA00059834

EFTA00059835

EFTA00059836

EFTA00059837

EFTA00059838

EFTA00059839

EFTA00059840