101 1 be able to find -- 2 : You should be able to find 3 that, yes. 4 -- okay. And then, 5 again, that would be, like, a penalty and 6 perjury of law, like, you know 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- you could get - you 9 can literally get charged if you're lying to us 10 because we're federal agents and you're under 11 oath. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : So, you're positive about 14 that statement, that you called someone and 15 notified them around 9:30 at night? 16 : I believe so. But if 17 Because I spoke to people about this. I know I 18 spoke to people about this. 19 : So, yeah. Just remember, 20 any -. We're just going to shut up for a 21 second, and let you think about who did you 22 speak with and what conversations were had. 23 What was stated? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : From the beginning of EFTA00062393

102 1 that day. So, here, I'm going to show you a 2 document, and this is - again - that 3 lieutenant's log, saying that, at 8:38 a.m., 4 Reyes was pre-removed. And do you know that, 5 when you're pre-removed, that means you're 6 released from the MCC. Correct? 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Do you know that? 9 : That, well, yeah. It's a 10 So, could I see that? 11 : Yeah. 12 : So. 13 : And here is the 38 to go 14 along with that, and the daily log. 15 : Okay. 16 : Which shows that he was 17 pre-removed at 8:38. 18 : A.m. 19 : A.m. 20 : Okay. 21 : So, he left. He left the 22 SHU, I'm assuming, before then. That's when he 23 was keyed out. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : By R&D. Correct? EFTA00062394

103 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : And then, is there -. 3 Did we -? No, we didn't print out any of those 4 other documents. So, he was gone from the MCC 5 by 8:00, at least 8:30 a.m. 6 : Okay. 7 : So, you started at 2:00 8 p.m. What conversations can you remember that 9 you had, regarding Reyes being gone from the 10 institution? 11 : I don't. I remember finding 12 out that Reyes was gone when I put Epstein back 13 in his cell. That's when I remember that he 14 was gone. 15 : So, you -. 16 : I mean, that's when I realized 17 that he was gone because I'm, like, there's 18 supposed to be two people in here 19 : So, prior to that time, 20 you didn't know, at all, that Reyes was gone? 21 : Yeah, because I'm thinking 22 about it to myself, as we walk -. 23 : Sorry. He's giving me 24 documents to show you what happened to him. 25 So, this is from the Marshal Service. I don't EFTA00062395

104 1 believe that you would have received this 2 email, but I'm just showing you. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : You can say if you 5 remember it. This is -. Did you ever see one 6 of these? This is a prisoner's schedule. 7 : No. 8 : The Marshal Service. So, 9 the Reyes right here, it shows that he was 10 gone, transferred within - per the judge - from 11 the MCC to GO. Do you know what GEO is? 12 : I've heard that term before, 13 but -. 14 : So, GEO is a -- 15 : Contract. 16 : -- contract -- 17 : Yeah. (Indiscernible 18 *01:04:23). 19 : -- which was going around 20 here. 21 : Okay. 22 : This would have been sent 23 to all these people in custody, from R&D, as 24 well as to all the lieutenants. 25 : Okay. EFTA00062396

105 1 : So, based upon this, they 2 would have generated what's called, I think, a 3 call out list. Do you know that? 4 : I know what a call out list 5 is. Yes. 6 : And then, we're of the 7 understanding, based upon this information, 8 next to Reyes name would have been WAB. Do you 9 know what that means? 10 : Yes. 11 : What does that mean? 12 : Like, I mean, offhand, I don't 13 know what the actual acronym means, but it does 14 mean that somebody is getting removed from the 15 building, whether they're being released, sent 16 to another institution, what have you. 17 : All right. So, that 18 would have It means, "With All Belongings." 19 And it means that they take all their stuff 20 because they're leaving. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Do you remember, that 23 date, seeing that call out list? Would that be 24 maintained in the SHU for the (Indiscernible 25 *01:05:06)? EFTA00062397

106 1 : I don't remember seeing that 2 call out list. I do not. 3 : And in general, would the 4 call out list be maintained in the SHU, though? 5 : No. The call out list is 6 basically before R&D leaves for the night. 7 They print out the call out sheets for the next 8 day, and over the course of the morning shift, 9 internal, when they give out the daily rosters, 10 will give out the call out sheets to every 11 unit. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : For the following day. For 14 the next morning. 15 : And then, is that call 16 out list, though, like, for instance, the call 17 out list of the SHU, was that maintained in the 18 SHU at all, when they (Indiscernible 19 *01:05:34)? 20 : Yeah. Once you have it in the 21 SHU or whatever, usually, they'll have it on 22 the desk with the rest of the paperwork. So, 23 you know what you're looking at. If you've got 24 to get somebody ready. 25 : Okay. So -- EFTA00062398

107 1 : Yeah. 2 : -- so, is that something 3 that they keep in the SHU all day long? 4 : Yeah. Once you receive it. 5 All for the morning shift, because usually, 6 morning shift, depending on your internal, you 7 might get that paperwork probably about 3:00 or 8 something. You know, after you - as you're 9 conducting counts. So, you conduct counts, and 10 they come through and they hand you your roster 11 for the day. The call out sheets, the separate 12 rosters. 13 : And is that maintained, 14 though -- 15 : Yes. 16 : -- throughout the day? 17 So, that, like 18 : It's supposed to be. 19 : -- for instance -. Okay. 20 So, if somebody goes to court, you know, on 21 that list, it says this guy is court, it says 22 this guy is WAB, it says, you know, so that you 23 know where inmates are? 24 : Well, R&D will have the -. It 25 will be a court roster for R&D. And it's EFTA00062399

108 1 another -. 2 : Wouldn't that all be 3 listed on the call -- 4 : Yeah. 5 list, though? 6 : It would. Yeah, it would. 7 : So, point being is if, 8 like, if you're doing counts at 4:00 p.m., you 9 have that call list to be able to say, oh, 10 shit, this guy is at court, he's not back yet. 11 I need to find out where he is. Is that what 12 happens? 13 : Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's what's 14 supposed to happen. Yes. 15 : So, the questions that 16 all of that was, do you remember seeing that 17 call out list on August 9, 2019? 18 : I don't remember seeing it. 19 : No? 20 : No. 21 : But would it have been 22 there? 23 : It should have been there, but 24 I don't remember seeing it. 25 : Okay. EFTA00062400

109 1 : Everybody waves differently. 2 So, I may put my paperwork on the clipboard. 3 Somebody else may like to have three stacks of 4 paper over here. 5 : Okay. But what you're 6 saying is that you did know, on August 9th, 7 that Reyes was gone, and he was Epstein's cell 8 mate, and Epstein was without a cell mate. But 9 you're saying you didn't know it until 9:30 10 p.m.? 11 : Yeah. 12 : And at that point, you 13 did call someone, in the lieutenant's office? 14 : Yeah. 15 : So, you definitely know 16 it was the lieutenant's office -- 17 18 19 I know. : -- that you called? : I called someone. So, like, 20 let me rephrase and put it like this. That I 21 noticed it. I had discussions with, you know, 22 (Indiscernible *01:07:29), I said something 23 about it to them, and I called someone. Who I 24 spoke to, I do not remember. But I know I 25 called someone. And it had to be somebody EFTA00062401

110 1 higher than me. Because I can't make that 2 decision. 3 : Sure. And you think it 4 was a man? You don't think it was 5 : I think it was 6 : Or -? 7 I'm pretty sure it was a 8 male. I think it was a man. But being that it 9 was so long ago, I can't remember exactly what 10 I said on a brief phone call -- 11 : Sure. 12 : -- you know -- 13 : I understand. Yeah. I 14 mean, we're -. Yeah -- 15 : I'm just being honest with 16 you. 17 : -- we're two years later. 18 I got you. 19 : You know? 20 : And so -. 21 : And honestly, I thought this 22 was over. So, I was, like -- 23 : Right. Yeah. No. This 24 is where -. That's why we're back, coming back 25 to people to try to, like -. Part of the EFTA00062402

111 1 reason why we're reading this to you is to, 2 one) make sure that you 3 : That it's accurate. 4 : -- it's accurate, but 5 also to refresh your memory. This is what you 6 stated to these people, is that accurate, and - 7 again - to fill in some of these blanks. Now, 8 we have a memo that was drafted on August 12th, 9 2019. Let's see if it was - it says United 10 States government, Federal Bureau of Prisons 11 memo. And it says, past information from 12 Special Housing Unit. It says, "On Friday, 13 August 9th, 2019, at approximately 1:50 p.m., 14 I, SOS , passed on to oncoming staff 15 member, Officer , and present staff, SOS 16 and Officer , that inmate Reyes 17 was going WAB, and possibly may return, also 18 that inmate Epstein will be needing a cell mate 19 upon arrival from his attorney visit." Do you 20 know if -? 21 : I don't remember having that 22 conversation with 23 : Do you remember that that 24 conversation had, or do you believe that he's 25 lying to us? If he swore under oath that he EFTA00062403

112 1 definitely passed that information onto you -- 2 3 4 memo. 5 : You got a -- -- and he's got this : Mm-hrtun. 6 : That he also did. Do you 7 believe he's lying about it? 8 : If he did, you might want to 9 ask about that one because I do not 10 recall him speaking to me about this one. 11 : Okay. 12 : I don't necessarily want to 13 call anyone a liar, per se, but I don't 14 remember him speaking to me about this. So, 15 maybe he spoke to , and maybe I was 16 standing there, and he thought I heard him. 17 : Okay. 18 : But that's my assumption, but 19 I do not remember having this conversation with 20 him at all. 21 : All right. So, if he's 22 saying, you know, was standing there, I 23 relayed the information specifically to 24 saying, hey, what you call, it's WAB, Epstein 25 is going to need a new cell mate. You do not EFTA00062404

113 1 recall that conversation? 2 3 conversation. 4 I don't recall that Now, what is your opinion 5 of the fact that, if an inmate is WAB, that 6 means that he's not coming home 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- right? What is your 9 opinion of the fact that he said, possibly may 10 not return? Why would he say - if someone is 11 WAB - why would he say possibly may not return? 12 : I don't know. 13 : Because your 14 understanding was, if someone was WAB -- 15 16 17 18 : If it was WAB -- you're not -. : -- he's supposed to be gone. : He was gone. Correct? 19 : But - okay, so, with that -- 20 : So, if -. 21 : -- if he says possibly may 22 return or whatever, because this has happened, 23 usually, I've seen it before with other 24 inmates. You see somebody that says if they're 25 WAB, they're supposed to leave this date, their EFTA00062405

114 1 stuff is packed up or whatever, and then, 2 something happens, and then, they can't go -. 3 They can't leave. Like, but that's usually if 4 they're going to another institution or 5 something. Now, if this dude actually got 6 released or whatever, I don't see why - any 7 reason. Unless the judge put a hold on him. 8 : Well, he didn't get 9 released. Like I showed you. He got 10 transferred. 11 : Yeah. So, yeah. So, I don't 12 see, you know, like, unless the judge 13 miraculously put a hold on you or something 14 like that, I don't know why he said possibly. 15 : So, I guess my question 16 on that would be, then, if he's at least by 17 8:38 a.m., WAB, gone from the SHU, should 18 someone have 19 : Yes. 20 : -- replaced him 21 beforehand? 22 : Yes. Replaced him and, yeah, 23 somebody should have -. Like, because during 24 the day shift or whatever, this dude leaves, he 25 goes to WAB or whatever, and you know that it's EFTA00062406

115 1 Epstein is in the cell, because I'm assuming 2 with how it happened, I'm assuming he goes WAB, 3 Epstein goes to a legal visit, now your day is 4 going on and everything like that. And it's 5 just escaped everybody. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : That's what I'm thinking 8 happened. But yeah, he should have been 9 replaced during that shift. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : But if you don't have the 12 numbers, that's another question, that I'll 13 ask. If you don't have the numbers in the SHU, 14 if you have, like, an odd number, and you can't 15 put anybody with him. What are you going to 16 do? 17 : Or are you aware that 18 Epstein's cell mates were all vetted at the 19 highest level? 20 : No. 21 : So, in your opinion, if 22 you knew that Epstein was required to have a 23 cell mate, could have you just placed a cell 24 mate with him? 25 : No. I don't have that EFTA00062407

116 1 authority to do that. Because if I was to -- 2 3 authority? 4 : So, who has the : -- if I was to make that 5 decision, and something happened to him, now 6 I'm screwed. 7 : So, who should have 8 placed him with a cell mate? That's place 9 Epstein with a new cell mate. 10 : It would have been one of us 11 to probably put the inmate in that cell. But 12 that determination would either come from the 13 operations lieutenant, the SHU lieutenant, or 14 the captain. 15 : Okay. 16 : Or anybody above that. 17 : Sure. 18 : But that's where the decision 19 would come from. They'll probably just tell 20 me, like, hey, execute. 21 : So, in your opinion, 22 based upon the information that we have, with 23 him going WAB, should the activities, ops, or a 24 captain have been notified, and those people 25 should have ensured that Epstein was -? EFTA00062408

117 1 : Yes. Because if - like, all 2 right, after all the stuff that we've seen here 3 - if I was to, like, let's just say I was to 4 put somebody in that cell, and something 5 happened. Now I made the wrong decision, and 6 then, the next question is going to be, well, 7 why didn't you ask questions? 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : So, I would not put somebody 10 in there without somebody giving me the green 11 light to do so. 12 : Now, if - was 13 the OIC back then? 14 15 16 17 : I think so. : All right. So -- : For the day shift. : -- so, is the 18 OIC. If him, the activities lieutenant, and 19 the ops lieutenant, all for that day shift are 20 saying, well, we didn't know if Reyes was going 21 to come back or not, so we thought it was 22 premature to place a new cell mate in there 23 with him. Is that a legit excuse, do you 24 think, or a reason, if the person is listed 25 with WAB next to their name? EFTA00062409

118 1 : Depending on how they looking 2 at it, like, because - like I said before - if 3 he's WAS and, like, maybe the bus got cancelled 4 or whatever, and then, somebody would have to 5 come back. If you're thinking about it that 6 way, then yes. But if he was gone at 8:00 7 something in the morning, then he ain't never 8 coming back. 9 : At 2:00 p.m., he's still 10 not back, wouldn't they know by then if that 11 was -- 12 : That's what I -- 13 : -- truly WAB? 14 : -- that's what I would think. 15 : Okay. But you do not 16 recall him specifically saying that to you? 17 : Hmm-mm. 18 : So, you believe, the 19 first time that you - you did know, on August 20 9th - but you believe the first time that you 21 knew was at 9:30 p.m. 22 : That's the first time I think 23 I knew, because it was too much running around. 24 I don't not remember this conversation at all. 25 : Okay. And that's EFTA00062410

119 1 because, once you got there, you were just 2 running? 3 : I was running, hopping and 4 popping the whole time. 5 : Okay. 6 : Pretty much. I'm sweating. 7 Everything. 8 : Okay. 9 : But we were all tired that 10 day. 11 : Okay. 12 : I know you didn't know until 13 9:30 p.m. When do you think would have been 14 the first time you should have caught up to the 15 fact that Reyes was not there? 16 : I was doing rounds, because in 17 my mind, because I'm thinking about it, like, 18 like how Epstein is the priority. So, if I'm 19 working out ranges, and I'm talking to inmates 20 here and there, and I had two other inmates on 21 that tier where Epstein was, that wanted to 22 play the suicide game, you know, as I walked 23 through there, or whatever, I know this is 24 Epstein's cell. I know Epstein is not here. 25 Even when you look in there, you just keep EFTA00062411

120 1 going. And then, you know, you just keep going 2 or whatever. So, like, it should have dawned 3 on me then, but I'm thinking about this guy 4 over here, that may have, you know, that had 5 the noose around him, and he wants to play that 6 game. And then, you got another inmate on 7 another tier, doing some other crazy nonsense. 8 There was just a lot of moving pieces that day. 9 So, even in my movement around or whatever, 10 like, it missed - it escaped it - it missed me. 11 : Yeah. And that was what 12 I was going to go to, after that, is the fact 13 that, would this have been the only - this 14 mandatory rounds must be conducted every 30 15 minutes on Epstein, as per God - would that 16 have been the only orange card that was up 17 there? Saying to make sure that Epstein is your 18 priority in the SHU right now? 19 : It shouldn't have been. Like, 20 I don't remember if there was anything on his 21 door, or anything like that, or whatever. But 22 I remember that. That, you know, that was per 23 God, obviously, that's a joke. 24 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 25 : But I do remember, it was EFTA00062412

121 1 something else on a wall, at some point in 2 time, about, like, yeah, make sure you watch 3 this guy. So, I don't remember if it was a 4 memo or something, but it was something else. 5 But I definitely remember that one. If I'm not 6 mistaken, there was more than one copy of that 7 thing. 8 : Okay. So, but what I'm 9 asking, was there anybody, any other inmate 10 names, such as this, or was inmate your 11 priority when you were in the SHU? 12 : No. No. I don't remember any 13 of the inmates' name. I just remember that. 14 : So, this is the one guy 15 that's up on the desk, on the officer's 16 station, saying, making sure you're checking on 17 him -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- on Epstein. So, that 20 was what I was going to get at. If these 21 rounds were actually conducted on L-tier, 22 through that whole time, that that cell is 23 empty 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- how did people not EFTA00062413

122 1 notice Epstein's cell mate is gone? 2 3 here 4 : Right. And now, this right : And I'm not talking about 5 just your watch. So, night watch 6 : Yeah. 7 : -- as well as day watch. 8 : Yeah. So, day watch, oh, no, 9 this is morning watch. So, okay. 10 : Yeah. This is day watch. 11 : Yeah. So, day watch. Like, 12 obviously, through here, they got rid of him. 13 And, like, that, there should have been 14 something done there. 15 : Yeah. I mean, he's 16 claiming, he's the guy who was apparently, you 17 know, is apparently signing this, I 18 believe, for all these. He's claiming, yeah, I 19 passed on the information, he's gone, he's 20 going to need a new cell mate, if he, in fact, 21 doesn't come back. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : So, all right, he's 24 swearing under oath that, and he wrote a memo, 25 as well. And he swore a couple times to that. EFTA00062414

123 1 As far as -- 2 : Okay. So, now I got to write 3 a memo, right? 4 : -- so, well, that's what 5 - you don't have to write a memo, we're talking 6 to you. So, as far as this goes, the question 7 would be: how are anybody that's working - so, 8 it's you -- 9 -: 10 : -- did start 11 then? 12 : I think comes in at 13 4:00. 14 : So, it's at -. Okay. So 15 -- 16 : He's already here. 17 : -- you four 18 : He's on (Indiscernible 19 *01:17:22). 20 • -- it said four. It's 21 you, , and Noel. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : How was it not noticed - 24 if these rounds on this round sheet were 25 conducted - how was it not noticed, even prior EFTA00062415

124 1 to 9:30, if you're saying you noticed at 9:30, 2 that that cell was empty? If this guy is your 3 number one priority. 4 : Because I was looking for 5 Epstein. Yeah, I was just, like, my mind, and 6 on that specific cell, it was him. 7 : Right. 8 : And I knew he was at a legal 9 visit. 10 : Yeah, yeah. So, and I 11 get it, that you said you did a round on 12 Epstein when he came back. But if rounds are 13 being conducted in entire SHU -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- wouldn't people 16 notice, hey, it's claiming that one, two, 17 three, four, you know, however many there are 18 there, throughout the day, you're going down 19 everything, how did someone not notice that 20 cell was empty? 21 : Hmm. And you're absolutely 22 right. Now -. 23 : So, the point being is, 24 does that mean that these rounds weren't 25 conducted? EFTA00062416

125 1 : I'm not going to say that 2 because I know those people went down, down 3 range, you know, but what I'm going to say is, 4 like, if that dude was gone, and you know, the 5 number one priority is Epstein, and you're just 6 doing rounds because you know that you're going 7 to have to count anyway. 8 : Yeah, yeah. 9 : You know what I'm saying? So, 10 when you go through on the count, that's when 11 you will catch that. 12 : So, yeah. In this case, 13 the 4:00 p.m. -- 14 : Exactly. 15 : -- count wasn't 16 conducted? 17 : Exactly. 18 : So, the 4:00 p.m. count 19 wasn't conducted. And then -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- you have reason to 22 believe the 10:00 p.m. count wasn't conducted, 23 either. Nor the 12:00 p.m. Nor the 3:00 a.m. 24 And not the 5:00 a.m. So, none of those counts 25 were conducted. EFTA00062417

126 1 : I wasn't here for those. 2 : That's a - yeah, I know, 3 you left before 10:00 p.m. - so, that's when 4 you would believe it would have been caught, is 5 during the counts, not the rounds? 6 : I believe it would have been 7 caught more so during the counts, and with the 8 rounds, you can catch it, but with a million 9 things going on, it's a little bit harder. 10 : I gotcha. 11 : You know, 12 : So, the counts, the more 13 official thing, where there's two inmates where 14 you're actually counting inmates. So, the fact 15 that the 4:00 p.m. count wasn't conducted, 16 that's why you believe you didn't actually 17 catch it until 9:30? 18 : Yeah. 19 : Okay. 20 : That's why I believe I didn't 21 catch it. 22 : All right. But you did 23 catch it at 9:30 -- 24 : Yeah. I did catch it. 25 : -- and you do believe you EFTA00062418

127 1 notified someone? 2 : Yes. 3 : And you do believe you 4 told both and Noel? 5 : Yeah. Yes. 6 : Yes. And are you 7 confident of both those things? Can you state 8 under penalty and perjury of law, I told 9 and Noel, he did not have a cell mate? 10 : Yes. 11 : What about, are you 12 confident under penalty and perjury of law, I 13 called the lieutenant's office and notified 14 them that Epstein did not have a cell mate? 15 : I'm confident that I called, 16 but who was on the other end of that phone -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- is my issue. 19 : Right. And what I'm 20 saying is, are you confident you called the 21 lieutenant's office, though? 22 : No, I can't say I'm confident 23 I called the lieutenant, but I want to say yes, 24 because that's normally what I would do. 25 : Right. So, who - if you EFTA00062419

128 1 didn't call the lieutenant's office - who would 2 it be that you would have called? 3 : It might have been a unit 4 manager, or somebody. If anybody was still in 5 the building at the time. But I called 6 somebody. I spoke to someone, higher than me, 7 that could make a decision about this 8 situation. 9 : All right. So, that was 10 going to be my next question. Are you sure, 11 not only did you call, but you actually spoke 12 with someone? 13 : Yes. I spoke with someone. 14 Who it was, at this point, I don't remember. 15 : Okay. So, someone. You 16 did make that notification, and you're saying 17 someone else (Indiscernible *01:20:44). 18 : I made that notification, yes. 19 : And you did - and you're 20 positive you informed and Noel? 21 : Yeah. Because we were all 22 talking. Like, it was, like, yeah. This dude 23 is (Indiscernible *01:20:54). Like, it was a 24 conversation. A brief conversation, but a 25 conversation nonetheless. EFTA00062420

129 1 : And you had the three of 2 you had it? 3 : Yeah. Like, it was, like, you 4 know, I said something, he said something, she 5 said something. And then, it's back to 6 business because it doesn't stop just because - 7 . You've got to kind of figure things out, as 8 you move. So -. 9 : Okay. What do you got on 10 that? 11 : When we initially asked you 12 the question about Epstein and his cell mate, 13 you said that Epstein must have a cell mate. 14 Right? To that effect. You knew that Epstein 15 needed a cell mate. 16 : Hmm, and I knew, and when I 17 said that, I mean, I knew that he had one 18 before. I knew he had one before. Because 19 that's why I was, like, oh, like, where did 20 this guy go? 21 : Other than the fact that he 22 came off psych observation, was there any other 23 reason why you felt that Epstein needed a cell 24 mate? 25 : Personally? EFTA00062421

130 1 : Did anyone instruct you? Any 2 instructions come down? 3 : The instructions started 4 coming down about him needing a cell mate after 5 his first so-called suicide attempt or 6 whatever, and that's when they started picking, 7 and that's when, you know, like, how - well, 8 what's the other guy's name, Tartaglione? And 9 that's why we, as officers, can't determine who 10 we're going to put in there with this guy. You 11 know, like, because if I -. Like, let's say I 12 ought to put somebody else in there with him or 13 whatever, and because Epstein is saying that 14 Tartaglione attacked him, and this, and that, 15 and the third. That would fall on me. You 16 know, you want a supervisor to make that 17 determination. 18 : So, let's talk about -- 19 : So -. 20 : -- that. Were you there for 21 that incident, when that happened, the first 22 attempt of suicide? 23 : I wasn't there for that, no. 24 : Do you know what happened 25 between Epstein and Tartaglione? EFTA00062422

131 1 2 don't know. 3 : Only from what I heard. I : Have you heard that, if 4 Tartaglione attacked Epstein, did he try to 5 kill him, or did Epstein try to hang himself? 6 : I heard that Epstein tried to 7 hang himself and that, you know, he blamed 8 Tartaglione. 9 : Okay. Now, you said from 10 that point onwards, instructions started coming 11 down. From who? 12 : The instructions started 13 coming down from the SHIT lieutenant. I know 14 Lieutenant 15 16 lieutenant? 17 would come in. He would So, who is the SHU : Now? 18 : No, no. At that point. 19 : At that point in time, I think 20 it was still Lieutenant 21 22 23 : Was it : Was it Lieutenant • • 24 hmm. - yeah - was in there, too. Mm- was. I think was 25 SHU Lieutenant at that time. In fact, I can EFTA00062423

132 1 find out right now. 2 • 3 4 though. 5 ■ 6 7 -. 8 : He was not working on -? : He was not working that night, No. He was off that day? : Mm-hmm. Yeah. Let's see. So So, it came from Lieutenant 9 You think it came from Lieutenant 10 also? 11 : Yeah. Because I, like, I 12 didn't speak to recently during that 13 timeframe, I don't believe. I think, like, 14 because I think it was, like, I know one time 15 ,specifically, Lieutenant was, like, by - 16 he specifically said - boss's do, not that 17 night, though. But, you know, he specifically, 18 like, that's one of the first people that was, 19 like, was adamant about keep an eye on this 20 guy. This is why we put him in this cell. 21 : Well, what about the cell 22 mate requirement? 23 : The cell mate requirement 24 thing. That was something that it was 25 conversations amongst other SHU crew members EFTA00062424

133 1 from day, evening, morning shift, or whatever. 2 Like -- 3 : Yeah. 4 : -- we knew we couldn't just 5 make a decision. So, that was a thing, like, 6 everybody was, like, yo, call the lieutenants, 7 like, make -- 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- like, have them tell you 10 who to put in there with this person. 11 : When was this conversation? 12 : This is over the course of 13 time. You know, a couple days. Because we, 14 like, people get - people leave this 15 institution, and people come back in. So, 16 usually, you never really know. So, this is, 17 like, you know, days leading, you know, days 18 leading up to this or whatever. We just, like, 19 idle conversations, that, amongst staff, that 20 we have had. 21 : That Epstein needed a 22 cellmate at all times. 23 : Yeah. And then, like, you 24 know, like, because I believe, at one point in 25 time, he had a cell mate, somebody left, and EFTA00062425

134 1 then, they -. We had to find a cell mate for 2 him real quick. But like I said, like, this is 3 - it's bits and pieces here. 4 : Which SHU staff do you recall 5 having that conversation with? 6 : Pfft. Usually, those are the 7 little quick conversations you have during 8 shift change. So, this is, like, hi, bye, 9 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 10 : But you don't recall if it 11 happened? 12 : Yeah. I don't recall it. 13 : I have a question. That 14 memo. So, you said you've relived 15 . Do you recall relieving at 16 what time? 17 : (Indiscernible 18 *01:24:59). 19 : Hmm. 2:00. Yeah. 20 : At 2:00? 21 : Yeah. 2:00. Maybe a little - 22 . 23 : Do you recall if he left the 24 institution? 25 : I don't know. EFTA00062426

135 1 : But he was no longer in the 2 SHU, at that point? 3 : But yeah, after I relieved 4 him, I think he -. I don't know if he went 5 home, or if he went somewhere else. I don't 6 know. 7 : Okay. Does that sound right? 8 : Yeah. So, what you want 9 to say is, this 10 : Last page. 11 : -- so, this -- 12 : Last page. 13 : No, no. Not that one. It's 14 the other one. Not this one. I need the other 15 one. 16 : Yeah. The email. 17 : The email. 18 : So, this email from 19 to , who was the ops lieutenant 20 at the time, was sent at 6:07 p.m., where he 21 wrote this - you wrote that, the shot, where 22 everyone would call it the -- 23 : So, look at the date on top. 24 At the time. 25 : -- so, it appears that EFTA00062427

136 1 was still in the institution at 6:00 2 p.m. We're trying to figure out why. What 3 would he have been doing in there? Would he -? 4 : I don't know. 5 : No? And he's not listed 6 on that daily roster. Correct? It's signed 7 from -. 8 : That's the 10th. Look at the 9 9th. 10 : After he left. Can you 11 find his name on there? 12 13 14 leaving at? 15 : It's -. What's the schedule show him : 2:00. We saw him leaving at 16 2:00 because I'm his relief. 17 : And you know he was not 18 in the SHU. Correct? 19 : Right. 20 : Do you guys have access to 21 BOP -? 22 : Let him look first. 23 : Okay. 24 : I don't know. And what was 25 your question again? EFTA00062428

137 1 : Do you have access to BOP 2 email outside of work? 3 : No. 4 : The only way to send an email 5 is from where? 6 : I could send an email to a BOP 7 address. 8 : No, no. From your BOP email 9 to another SOP. Like, let's say he was sending 10 an email to , right? Could he have done 11 it from outside the institution? Or does he 12 have to be inside the MCC to get that? 13 : Like, say it one more time. 14 : So, in order for him to send 15 this email -- 16 : Yes, in order for to 17 send an email to -- 18 : This email. 19 20 : This email. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : In order for him to send this 23 email, can he do it outside of the MCC, or does 24 he have to be inside the MCC to send it? 25 : Oh, no. You can send an email EFTA00062429

138 1 to a BOP email, outside of the MCC. 2 : But what he's saying is, 3 would he have access to his BOP email outside 4 of the MCC? Would he have been able to send it 5 6 : Oh, would -- 7 : -- yeah. 8 : would has access 9 to -. Oh. Not to my knowledge. I don't know 10 how to do that. 11 : Okay. Yeah, no. And we 12 already know that. 13 : And you didn't see him all 14 day? After he had left. 15 : Hmm-mm. 16 : And you relieved him. You 17 didn't see him in the SHU? 18 : No. 19 : He never came back? 20 : Hmm-mm. 21 : Okay. So, we have all these 22 documents that we showed you. Just initial 23 them, please. 24 : Okay. Hmm. And this. This 25 one, too, or no? EFTA00062430

139 1 : Yes. Anything we showed you. 2 : Okay. 3 : Just down there. 4 : What is this one? 5 : This is the one -. 6 : Okay. 7 : Schedule report. That's the 8 one that shows that inmate Reyes, he had left. 9 : Gotcha. 10 : And you'll notice, he was 11 transferred within, and he went from MCC -- 12 : To GEO. 13 : -- to GEO. 14 : Thank you, sir. 15 : And we probably covered this, 16 but just want to ask one more time. If that 17 4:00 p.m. count was done, would it have been 18 caught that Reyes was not in the institution, 19 and Epstein needed a cell mate? 20 : There would have -. It would 21 have been caught that, you know, that he wasn't 22 in the institution, but, like, when you count, 23 even though you're looking at living, breathing 24 bodies, you know, sometimes you'll be, like, I 25 don't remember everybody's name. Sometimes I'm EFTA00062431

140 1 talking to inmates and I'm, like, hey, you. 2 So, I probably wouldn't even notice it was 3 Reyes. You know? 4 : But would you -- 5 : But if you -. 6 you would have noticed 7 that there was no one in the cell, is what 8 we're saying. 9 : Right. 10 : Now, we asked you about, have 11 you ever pre-filled -- 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : -- round sheets -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- or count sheets. You said 16 yes to the count sheets. Right? 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : Do you recall ever pre- 19 filling round sheets at all? 20 : I don't recall pre-filling 21 round sheets. I remember being taught about 22 it, at one point in time. 23 : Taught about it by who? 24 : That was when I was a daisy 25 fresh rookie. EFTA00062432

141 1 : Okay. 2 : So, I knew that that was 3 something that was done. 4 5 6 7 : The pre-filling? : Yeah. : By who? : I want to say it was Clark, 8 but I was a rookie back then. I was -- 9 : By who? 10 : -- (Indiscernible *01:30:15), 11 though. Clark, but that was I was a rookie 12 by then. 13 : Who is Clark? 14 : He don't work here no more. 15 : Do you recall his first name? 16 : No. 17 : Okay. Do you recall hearing 18 or seeing anybody else pre-fill round sheets or 19 count sheets? 20 : Yeah. You hear about it, but 21 -. 22 : Like, who? 23 : You know what I'm saying, 24 like, I've heard about it from multiple people. 25 Names and dates of when they did it. Like, I EFTA00062433

142 1 don't know. 2 3 heard about? - I I don't need - who have you don't need dates or anything, 4 but who have you heard about pre-filling the 5 rounds and counts sheets? 6 7 school staff, like, you know, like, when, like, 8 but these people don't even work here anymore. 9 You know, like, I mean, I don't know these 10 people. They don't work here anymore. They, 11 you know, like, they had a whole SHU crew. 12 Like, there was a whole system of things that 13 they had it on lock. That was just how it 14 worked. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : You know, some of the old : So, you said SHU So, I remember, as a rookie, I would go in there. And then, you know, they teach you things or whatever, and then, you know, like, I guess they've been working so long, you know, they know the short cuts that they do. So, I remember learning about it then or whatever. And then, I even got taught at one point, or whatever. I'm, like, okay. But I wasn't working up there then. : So, the names. I know you EFTA00062434

143 1 mentioned the SHU crew. So, the names. What 2 are the names? 3 : From all these -. From back 4 then or whatever, it was a whole slew of 5 people. 6 : Which is fine. Any names you 7 recall. Because you said you learned it from 8 people, right? 9 10 11 : Yeah. : And so -. : So, like, as me learning, 12 like, well, now, I know when I started, 13 was up there. 14 *01:31:49). was up there. 15 16 17 spell that? 18 19 20 • 21 there? 22 23 people. 24 • • (Phonetic Sp. . Oh. How do you He doesn't work here no more. : Okay. : Who else used to work up Some dude that used to work here, named used to work up there. It's a bunch of So, you've got -- 25 : Track of all these names. EFTA00062435

144 1 and 2 3 : Yeah. 4 : Have you seen them pre-fill - 5 have you heard or seen them - pre-fill round 6 sheets or count sheets? 7 : I've heard of it. But, you 8 know, like, I haven't seen them do it, but I've 9 heard of it or whatever. And I do remember who 10 it was, though. I remember, at one point in 11 time, somebody showed me, like, oh, yeah, this 12 is how you -. Teaching me how to do the round 13 sheets. And taught me that way. 14 : What did they teach you 15 exactly? 16 : Like, I start here. So, the 17 time is 4:05. And you start at 4:05, finish at 18 4:06. The next one, you do at 4:07, 4:08. 19 : So, that's why you, when you 20 saw that -. 21 : That's when I saw that, and I 22 recognized it. 23 24 25 : So, you think that's -- : That's -. : -- that's how it was taught EFTA00062436

145 1 for -- 2 3 : Mm-hmm. -- how many round sheets have 4 you done? (Indiscernible *01:32:58) that it was 5 pre-filled? 6 : Pre-filled? 7 : Yeah. 8 : I don't recall doing any pre- 9 filled round sheets on my career. Because it 10 was a situation -. Well, that's another story, 11 so I'm not even going to get into that. 12 : Okay. 13 : Yeah, but -. 14 : You've never, on the round 15 sheets. 16 : Hmm-mm. 17 : How many count sheets have 18 you? 19 : Now, the count sheets, on the 20 other hand, if, you know, you're in a hurry, 21 you fill it out -- 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : -- you execute it. And then, 24 you put it out. Because you're just, like, you 25 don't want to waste time just doing paperwork. EFTA00062437

146 1 But obviously, I learned a valuable lesson from 2 that one. 3 : So, I know on that one, that 4 a count wasn't actually done. Have there been 5 any other situations 6 : No. 7 : -- where the counts haven't 8 been done? 9 : No. 10 : Do you know of any employees 11 that haven't been doing rounds or counts? 12 : In SHU or just in the prison 13 in general? 14 : Just in general. 15 : Yeah. 16 : The SHU is what we 17 concentrated -- 18 : Yeah. 19 : -- but if you know in 20 general. 21 : Nah, and - pfft - and 22 especially after all of this. 23 : No. Let's talk about 24 starting at that time, too - were you aware of 25 employees not doing rounds and counts? EFTA00062438

147 1 : No. But they were all -. I 2 do recall an incident where, I guess there was 3 a bad count. No. There was two good counts. 4 It was two good counts, and then, they figured 5 out it was a bad count the next shift or 6 whatever. So, basically, what people were 7 doing, they would look in on the computer to 8 see what the number was, fill out the paper, 9 and send it down. I remember that happening a 10 while back. 11 : They looked on the computer 12 for the number? 13 : Yeah. 14 : How do you look -- 15 : Like -- 16 : -- on the computer? 17 : -- they, I guess, like, you 18 know, somebody must have had work control, and 19 had El access, and just looked up the number -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 -- of what control would have 22 on the El, then filled it out, and then said, 23 here you go. And turned it in. And that went 24 on for some time or whatever. So -. 25 : When was this? EFTA00062439

148 1 : I don't even remember when it 2 is. But I remember that was I remember 3 that was a thing because it was, like, some 4 people were supposed to get in trouble for 5 that. 6 : Do you recall if 7 Noel, or any of the SHU staff had access to the 8 El? Even yourself. Did you guys have access to 9 the El document? 10 : No. I didn't have access to 11 the El at that time. No. 12 : What about the rest of the 13 staff? 14 : I don't think so. 15 : How would they have the 16 count? 17 : He already said. 18 : No, he did, but I'm going to 19 ask about the 10:00 p.m. and the midnight. How 20 would they know to go off the -? I know you 21 went off the master sheet, right? 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : What sheet -? What number -? 24 Where would they have got the number two? Not 25 for a 10:00 p.m. and a midnight. EFTA00062440

149 1 : With that -- 2 : (Indiscernible *01:35:18). 3 : -- yeah, what would have 4 happened with that is, is you just, like, when, 5 like, I'm leaving at 10:00. So, I'm leaving at 6 10:00. And they were there for the 4:00 count. 7 So, they already know numbers. 8 : From the 4:00? 9 : They already know the numbers. 10 : So, they're going based 11 upon the 4:00 count (Indiscernible *01:35:37) - 12 13 : Right. 14 : -- and if anybody left, 15 they would just subtract them from that number 16 -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- that you used? 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : Because they know that 21 the 4:00 p.m. count -- 22 : Yeah. So, like -- 23 : -- (Indiscernible 24 *01:35:44). 25 : -- put, like, this -. All EFTA00062441

150 1 right. So, let's just say for the sake of 2 argument, if 9:30, right? It's 9:30, lock the 3 institution down, you count, you take a count 4 at 10:00. You count at 10:00, and at this 5 point in time, you know, 12:00, you're off or 6 whatever. So, midnight comes around, your 7 relief comes in, or whatever the case. But in 8 this particular case, the only person that went 9 home was Because Noel was still 10 here. So, if Thomas was coming in, or 11 whatever, yo, Noel was here the whole time. 12 She knows all the numbers. 13 : Right. 14 : He ain't got to do nothing. 15 : So, she know that the 16 4:00 count cleared, the number that you called 17 in was good at the time -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- or at least they said 20 it was good. 21 : And nobody else left, or came 22 in, and this -. 23 : So, they could just use 24 that number 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00062442

151 1 2 3 4 and at the 10:00 because Noel was : : -- as their base count, p.m., anything that changed, Mm-hmm. 5 : -- you know, constant. 6 She was there the whole time. 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. 9 : Have you ever slept on the 10 job while you was 11 : Not intentionally. 12 -- while you're sitting on 13 the computer. 14 : Like, you know, you sitting on 15 the computer, you might. 16 : Dose off. 17 : A box of sandman. Especially 18 if you're doing 16 hours on the regular basis. 19 : Did you sleep on August 9th - 20 - 21 : No. 22 : -- when you were working? 23 : No. 24 : Have you heard of a SHU - 25 let's just talk about SHU employees whenever EFTA00062443

152 1 you were working - have you heard about SHU 2 employees sleeping on the job? 3 : Rumors, but I never observed 4 it. 5 : Okay. When you were those 6 three of you guys in there, did you observe 7 or Noel sleeping -- 8 : No. 9 : -- during the shift on August 10 9th? 11 : No. I don't know how they 12 would because we was running the whole time. 13 : There's going to be a lot 14 of unnecessary stuff in there, but if you want 15 to ask those. 16 : Okay. Well, how do you 17 answer some of these questions, you said last 18 time you interacted with Epstein, something 19 triggered in your mind, right? And so, that's 20 why you told and Noel 21 : Yeah. 22 : -- to keep an eye on him. 23 Okay. Do you know if there was any threats 24 made to Epstein? 25 : No. EFTA00062444

153 1 : Did you know why Epstein was 2 in prison? 3 : Well, yeah. I watch the news. 4 : Okay. Did you have any 5 feelings regarding why he was in prison? 6 : No. 7 : Did Epstein have -. Go 8 ahead. You were going to say something. 9 : Like, feelings, what you did 10 is what you did. My personal feelings don't 11 matter. It's a job. You know what I'm saying? 12 So, like, I do my best for something like that. 13 That's why I don't personally like to read 14 people's paperwork. Because once you know, you 15 can't un-know it. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : So, but nah, I didn't have any 18 feelings towards him or whatever. I'm, like, 19 okay, he needs to go here, he needs to go -. 20 All right. There you go. There you go. 21 : What is your understanding of 22 what happened to Epstein on August 9th and 10th 23 of 2019? 24 : My understanding of it was 25 that -- EFTA00062445

154 1 : What is your understanding of 2 what happened to him? 3 that he hung himself. He 4 hung himself in the cell. 5 : What is your - you said he 6 hung himself? 7 : Yeah. That's my understanding 8 of what happened. 9 : Do you have any information 10 with regard to any suspicious activity that 11 occurred on August 9th and 10th, 2019, leading 12 up to the discovery of Epstein in his cell? 13 : No. 14 : What do you know about 15 someone else taking Epstein's life? 16 : Nothing. 17 : What do you know about 18 other's assisting in taking Epstein's life? 19 : Nothing. 20 : Did Epstein take his own 21 life? 22 : I wasn't there, but I would 23 assume so. 24 : Did Epstein act alone in 25 taking his own life? EFTA00062446

155 1 : I would assume so. I wasn't 2 there. I didn't see anything, but -. 3 : Did you have any involvement 4 with Epstein's death? 5 : No. 6 : What would have prevented 7 Epstein's death? What actions could have been 8 taken to prevent his death? 9 : I mean, personally, I feel 10 that if a person wants to take their own life, 11 they're going to do it. You know? So, I do not 12 know. 13 : Do you think them actually, 14 if the C.O.s actually did the rounds and the 15 counts, it could have helped? 16 : I think it could have been a 17 deterrent, but the truth of the matter is, if 18 somebody is actually attempting to do that, 19 they're going to do it. That's not going to 20 stop. And the only reason I say that is 21 because of my mother's (Indiscernible 22 *01:40:12). If you want to do it, you're going 23 to do it. 24 : What about in a cell? In 25 a cell, though, if he actually had a cell mate EFTA00062447

156 1 in there. Do you think that that would have 2 potentially helped to actually somebody else in 3 there? 4 : Yes and no. I think it might 5 have deterred him for a bit, but, you know? 6 : He would have found a 7 way? 8 : He would have found a way. If 9 that's really what you wanted to do, you would 10 have found a way. But that's an opinion. 11 : At least in this specific 12 circumstance, you think that, between the 13 counts and the rounds, and then getting an 14 actual cell mate in there for him, because he 15 was required to have a cell mate, do you think 16 that those things would have at least helped? 17 : I think it would have helped. 18 Yes. 19 : What is some of the 20 systematic problems inside the MCC - and 21 specifically, the SHU - that allowed for 22 Epstein to die? 23 : A lack of staff. Overworked 24 staff. Not getting clear instructions on what 25 to do in certain instances; i.e., you know, he EFTA00062448

157 1 doesn't have a cell mate, but there was no 2 directive of who to put in there. Like I said, 3 if you have an odd number, you don't have a 4 body to put there. 5 : Hmm. 6 : You can't just take an inmate 7 from another house that didn't do anything, 8 just because you trust him, and put him in 9 there. 10 : So, you're saying there 11 should have been a backup inmate? 12 : There should have been a 13 backup plan for that. You know, and it was -. 14 To me, it was decisions made, on the part of 15 the institution, that were wrong. And because 16 they made these decisions, now those other two 17 officers have to pay for it. You know, 18 Epstein, as high-profile as he is, should not 19 have been in SHU. He should have been in Ten 20 South. 21 : Why do you say that? 22 : That's not a decision that we 23 get to make. Because he's too high a profile. 24 Look, after that thing hit the news, the world 25 knew who he was. The world knew who El Chapo EFTA00062449

158 1 was. El Chapo never touched a unit. He went 2 straight to Ten South. Why would you put 3 somebody that high-profile, you know, that 4 close to regular, every day inmates. 5 : Now, if people are in Ten 6 South, can they have attorney visits? 7 : Yes. 8 : So, they can still do 9 that attorney visit all day long -- 10 : But they don't -- 11 : -- if -. 12 : -- they could. But in Ten 13 South, the attorney goes up to Ten South. 14 There is a room where it's a barrier between 15 they can talk to each other, but it's a glass 16 and stuff in there, anything that needs to get 17 handed, you know, search it, and then, you pass 18 it over. You could obviously can't read 19 anybody's legal work, but you make sure that 20 there's no contraband in there, when it has -. 21 And there's another room in there with a slot 22 that they can, that the lawyer could do that, 23 but the lawyer has to show it to you first, and 24 then hand it to the inmate. 25 : Do you think that the EFTA00062450

159 1 attorney visits had anything to do with the 2 fact that he wasn't placed in Ten South? 3 : I definitely think that's a 4 possibility. You hear lawyer, and they jump, 5 too. 6 : Right. 7 : Perfect example is - and this 8 is more so the systemic problems that are here 9 - if an inmate says, I want to talk to my 10 family, I want to -. For whatever reason, you 11 know, and they get a call from the judge, the 12 lawyer, anything of the sort. They're going 13 to, oh, you've got to give this inmate a phone 14 call, even though this inmate just had his 15 required phone call, and it's not time for that 16 phone call again. As soon as you hear lawyer 17 or judge or whatever, they're going to tell you 18 to do that. 19 : Sure. 20 : Even though he's supposed to 21 wait his time. You know, so, but that's how 22 I hope that answers your question. 23 : Yeah. 24 : Fair enough. That's enough. 25 : Just back to the call EFTA00062451

160 1 that you said that you made some time between 2 9:30 and 10:00. Would it have potentially been 3 to the control center? 4 : I guess it's possible. It was 5 definitely possible. Because if anything or 6 whatever, like, because that is one of the 7 places that we call, control, the lieutenant's 8 office, the unit team, and, you know, sometimes 9 you might make a phone call, like, oh, no, this 10 person ain't here, try this person, try control 11 center. So, it's definitely possible. 12 : So, looking at the 9th, 13 that roster, who would have been on between 14 9:30 and 10:00 -- 15 : This is -- 16 : -- in control center -- 17 : -- the 9th. 18 : -- or the lieutenant's 19 office? Who could have been some potential 20 possibilities that you spoke with? 21 : Hmm. Now, I could have 22 possibly spoke to . I could have - and 23 honestly, enough - I could have definitely, 24 possibly spoke to or , too. 25 But yeah. I wouldn't have asked him. EFTA00062452

161 1 : Okay. 2 : Was there any that you 3 said you definitely would have spoken to 4 someone higher than you? Are you any of those 5 people higher than you? 6 : I mean -- 7 : Or were then. 8 : -- well, 9 (Indiscernible *01:44:52), I'm a seven, they're 10 eights. 11 : Okay. 12 : You know, and they've been in 13 the building for so long, that they -- 14 : Sure, sure, sure. 15 : -- they know every nook and 16 cranny in here. 17 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 18 : So, that's, like, that's one 19 of the people, like, oh, wait a minute, I don't 20 know how to do something. Hey, can you teach 21 me how to do this? 22 : Sure. 23 : You know, so, they always gave 24 me good information. So, I would have probably 25 asked them. is always giving me good EFTA00062453

162 1 information when I'm trying to learn something. 2 So, I might have asked him. 3 : And so, now - and again, 4 thinking back on, like, how, like you're 5 saying, this is such a higher profile thing, 6 and this was so in the media, and everybody who 7 knew who he was after this - thinking back to 8 that, and thinking, like, oh, shit, I knew he 9 didn't have a cell mate, I know I called 10 somebody, that doesn't help jog your memory of 11 what was said, or what was done, and the fact 12 that you're involved now, specifically, with 13 central -- 14 : Yeah. And I'm -- 15 : -- (Indiscernible 16 *01:45:41). 17 : -- and I'm trying to remember 18 exactly who I spoke to. I really am. 19 20 21 : Because I mean -- : Yeah. : -- wouldn't you have 22 thought of that, like, even, like, that day 23 after, like, oh, man, good thing I called that 24 person and told them? 25 : Yeah. And, like, the only EFTA00062454

163 1 reason, I'm assuming that the reason that I 2 don't remember is because I was just moving so 3 fast. Like, I'm usually very, very detailed 4 and trying to remember things, and -- 5 : Sure, sure. 6 : -- you know, but -. 7 : All right. And then, do 8 you know anything about, if the 10:00 p.m. 9 count was conducted? 10 : That, I don't know. 11 : You just 12 : That -- 13 : -- you were gone. 14 : I was gone. 15 : Okay. So, you were 16 definitely gone by -- 17 : Yeah. I was definitely gone. 18 : -- before the 10:00 p.m. 19 count. All right. Do you want to ask 20 anything? 21 : No. 22 : Do we have - on the other 23 interview sheets, I had, like, the list of 24 (Indiscernible *01:46:33). Some here. Let me 25 just look. EFTA00062455

164 1 2 one, too. 3 Initial. Just initial this : Do you know anything 4 about Epstein being prematurely removed from 5 suicide watch; and the reasons why, if he was? 6 : Prematurely removed? Factually 7 speaking, I don't know if it's premature. I'm 8 not psych. Personally speaking, yeah, I think 9 it's probably a little fast. 10 : Do you know if anybody 11 had any influence on him being removed from 12 suicide watch? 13 : That, I don't know. 14 : Okay. So, you don't know 15 anything about, like, attorneys, or judges, or 16 wardens, or anything -- 17 : No. 18 : -- who had contact with 19 him? 20 : Yeah. I don't get to be privy 21 to that. 22 : Sure. Do you know 23 anything about the MCC SHU cameras being 24 tampered with or manipulated? 25 : No. EFTA00062456

165 1 : No. Do you know anything 2 about Epstein being in his assigned cell on 3 August 10th? Not being in his assigned cell on 4 August 10th, 2019? 5 : No. Not being in his assigned 6 -/ You mean, that's because the 10th is when he 7 was discovered? 8 : Correct. 9 : Hmm. No. 10 : So, you don't -. 11 : Like, so, he was -. Because, 12 I mean, like, I worked that day, but I worked 13 at 2:00. So -. 14 : Who's in charge of making 15 sure that the inmates are in the cells that 16 shows within the - I don't know if it was 17 Sentry or what system would I be that inmate 18 cell assignments are in? 19 : Oh, like, the Sentry. Sentry. 20 Yes. 21 : So, whose job is it to 22 ensure that -- 23 : That the -. 24 : -- Sentry matches what 25 cells they're in? EFTA00062457

166 1 : That's a collective. Really. 2 You know, in the SHU, there's supposed to be 3 the OIC. And probably with a little help from 4 C&A. On a regular housing unit, you get a new 5 inmate, hey, C&A, I got this new inmate, here's 6 his numbers, and here's the bed assignment, and 7 C&A keys it in. In SHU, usually - because it's 8 supposed to be four people in there - the SHU 9 OIC would key the inmate in, when they arrive. 10 : Okay. So, if after 11 they're -. So, if he arrives from suicide 12 watch on July 30th, 2019, and he's placed in 13 cell A -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- but for whatever 16 reason, a few hours later, it's determined he 17 can't be in cell A, he's got to be in cell B, 18 and him and his roommate, Reyes, were moved 19 over to cell B. Who's responsible for making 20 that change? 21 22 the computer? 23 : In the computer. : For making it physically or on 24 : You, like, you, normally, you 25 would want it to be the OIC. For this EFTA00062458

167 1 particular case, I would assume that a 2 lieutenant would have been all over that, and 3 they would have made sure it was done properly. 4 : So, in this case, should 5 it have been Lieutenant , who was the SHU 6 lieutenant? 7 : Yeah. 8 : All right. So, he should 9 have been making sure -. So, I mean, it's from 10 July 30th all the way to August 10th. He's in 11 a cell that doesn't match up with what Sentry 12 says. 13 : Yeah. That's not good. 14 : So, who, during that 15 period, should have caught that -- 16 : That would have been 17 : -- (Indiscernible 18 *01:49:33)? 19 : -- that would have been the 20 SHU lieutenant. 21 : The SHU lieutenant -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- would have audited 24 those reports? 25 : Yeah. EFTA00062459

168 1 : To see who is in -. And 2 how often is that audited, do you know? 3 4 5 : I don't know right off hand. : Okay. : But yeah. SHU lieutenant 6 should have caught that one. 7 : And does that -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- have anything to do 10 with the OIC on the different shifts, to say, 11 like, all right, are these inmates in their 12 appropriate cells, or is Sentry up to date? 13 : We can ask one another these 14 questions or whatever, but it's very difficult 15 16 : Okay. 17 : -- to, you know, do that with 18 everything that's going on, because even during 19 shift change, nothing stops moving. So, the 20 way I was taught is, like, the morning watch 21 shift, because things slowed down, is they're 22 supposed to go through the paperwork and check 23 it, and fix everything. 24 : Okay. 25 : This is the way that I was EFTA00062460

169 1 taught how to do it. You know? So. 2 : Yeah, but ultimately, you 3 believe it was the SHU lieutenant that should 4 have been responsible? 5 : Yes. 6 : Is that a yes or no? 7 : Yes. 8 : Do you know -. Did we 9 ever talk about cell searches? 10 : No. 11 : Do you know if cell 12 searches were being conducted in the SHU in 13 July and August of 2019? 14 : On my shift, no. On the day 15 shift, that's when they're supposed to be 16 conducted, because you have more staff, and you 17 can pull inmates out and actually execute that. 18 On the evening shift, you don't have enough 19 staff to do that. 20 : Per policy, in the SHU, 21 aren't you supposed to - even at that time - to 22 be doing five cell searches per shift? 23 : Yeah. You're supposed to do 24 five cell searches per shift, but being that 25 they're in the SHU and you can't just pull them EFTA00062461

170 1 out like that, it's impossible to do that. So, 2 when you do your searches in SHU, you search 3 kind of, like, the common areas, and, you know, 4 things of that nature, during the day, you 5 know, because inmates are going to recreation, 6 medical, and all this, and things of that 7 nature, or whatever. And so, and you have more 8 people. So, it's a lot easier to move people 9 from one place, holding cell over here, search 10 the cell, put them back. It's a lot easier. 11 When I'm on the evening shift, if, you know, if 12 I'm doing social visits - social visits, well, 13 that, too - social visits, or phone calls, or 14 cell sanitation, meaning that, you know, 15 inmates get the broom and sweeps out his cell, 16 I hold the bag up to the slot, he throws his 17 trash out, and then I'm onto the next one. You 18 know, it's -- 19 : Okay. 20 : -- yeah. 21 : So, are you aware that, 22 at the time, in August 2019, though, it was a 23 policy at least, maybe not practice, but a 24 policy, that five cell searches were supposed 25 to be being conducted during the evening watch? EFTA00062462

171 1 2 3 that? 4 : No. : You didn't even know : No. 5 : So, they were not being 6 conducted then? 7 8 9 10 people 11 : Sure. 12 : No. Not cells. : Yeah. : Because you don't have the -- to pull these inmates out. 13 : And the morning watch, 14 that was the policy, that you just conduct 15 searches of the common areas. But during day 16 watch, and night watch, you were supposed to be 17 doing cell searches. 18 : Easier enough if you have a 19 full crew -- 20 : Right. 21 -- but if you don't have a 22 full crew, how are you going to execute that? 23 : So, the reason why they 24 weren't being done is because you were 25 understaffed? EFTA00062463

172 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : Okay. Overworked and 3 understaffed? 4 : Yes. 5 : Okay. Do you remember 6 them ever being done at night watch? 7 : No. I've never seen a cell 8 search conducted on the evening shift. 9 : Okay. That's all I got. 10 : That's all I got, too. 11 : Anything - you've got 12 questions for us? - or anything you want to ask 13 about this stuff, or -? 14 : Hmm. Where do I stand in the 15 mix of all this, at this point? 16 : We don't -. This is a 17 big investigation. We're talking to a ton of 18 people. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : So, as far as what we do 21 is, we just basically put the puzzle together. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : We don't, you know, say 24 this person or, you know? We basically give our 25 report to the BOP, and the BOP determines -- EFTA00062464

173 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : -- what it is that's 3 going to happen to people. So, I can't 4 necessarily say this or that, how you stand, or 5 how you don't stand. We're the fact finders. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : You know, we, you know, 8 we present information. We don't make 9 determinations. So, based upon, you know - and 10 again, I think you've already provided all this 11 information in the past - it's just now, we 12 needed to gain clarification of exactly what 13 you meant from what you said -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- and that was, again, 16 the purpose of this. So, we can't really say. 17 What we can say is that - again - you're kind 18 of, like, a small piece of this puzzle. 19 : Mm-hmm. My next question is, 20 even though this happened so long ago, why wait 21 so long? 22 : And then, that's -- 23 : Because that's not the only -. 24 Like, that's an incident, yes, and it's a big 25 one, but working in here, things happen all the EFTA00062465

174 1 time. So -- 2 3 4 -- 5 6 : Sure. : -- to be expected to remember : I totally understand. -- something from 2019, all 7 the way to 2021, and since that timeframe, I've 8 had other inmates attempt suicide, I've had -- 9 : Sure. 10 : -- other inmates attack staff 11 members. I've had to, you know, be a part of a 12 use of force teams. Multiple things. And I 13 got to go back to 2019 and try to remember 14 specific details 15 : Absolutely. No, and that 16 is -- 17 : -- do you know how difficult 18 that is? 19 : I couldn't agree more, 20 and those details should have been provided in 21 2019. They should have been asked. It's part 22 of the reason why a senior special agent is on 23 this, is to make sure that these questions are 24 being asked 25 : Oh. EFTA00062466

175 1 : -- and it's also why 2 there's a new case agent. So - you know, on 3 this - so, to make sure that we're going 4 through these things, it's, like, why weren't 5 these questions asked? Why weren't, you know, 6 that's part of the reason 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- why we're here. 9 : And -. 10 : Is to say, like, all 11 right, well, we'll reading this, but what does 12 he mean by that? You know what I mean? 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : So, that's - again - why 15 we're here, is, like, all right, I could see 16 that you said whatever it is you said, but it's 17 not clear at all with what you meant. 18 : Right. 19 : And so, that's why we're 20 here, is to just get clarity on exactly what it 21 was that was stated, and it's also part of the 22 reason why we've -- 23 : Got the recorder. 24 : -- recorded every single 25 on these, is so that we don't have that problem EFTA00062467

176 1 in the future of, like, well, now we can say 2 exactly what was the question that was asked, 3 what was stated -- 4 : Stated -- 5 : -- in response. 6 : -- and what was meant. 7 : Right. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : And so, that's part of 10 it. The old case agent, at least from us, is 11 no longer with us. So, that's another reason 12 why, you know, there's a lot of reasons why 13 we're doing it now, and we weren't able to do 14 it for a time period. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : I'm just not -. I'm not 17 sure that I can, you know, I can disclose what 18 those -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- reasons were. But 21 there were reasons. And now, we're trying to 22 move as fast as we can. I don't know if you've 23 heard, but we've been in here talking to a lot 24 of people. 25 : Yeah. I've heard. I heard EFTA00062468

177 1 that somebody was here. Who it was, I don't 2 know. 3 : Yeah. Yeah. 4 : But now, I do. 5 : Yeah. So, we're talking 6 to a lot of people, especially a lot of people 7 that, you know, worked August 9th and 10th, 8 because we've got to, you know 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- got to make sure that 11 we have our information right. Not just that 12 we talked to people, but we've got to make sure 13 that that's the actual, accurate information. 14 So -- 15 : Fair enough. 16 so, that's why we're 17 back out here, is primarily to make sure that 18 things are accurate. 19 : Okay. Not a problem. And so, 20 with all this and everything like that, so, 21 what's the next course of action? So, I've been 22 interviewed, you're still interviewing other 23 people. So, what happens next? 24 : That's what we're kind of 25 saying, is, like, we take the information and EFTA00062469

178 1 we pass it along. When that will happen, I 2 couldn't tell you that. 3 : Okay. 4 • Ultimately, though, I 5 would think what would, you know, if you're 6 talking about what happens specifically with 7 you, that would be in the hands of the BOP. 8 So, and who in the BOP? I don't know about 9 that. 10 : Okay. 11 : I don't know if it 12 happens with the warden level. I don't know if 13 it happens with OIA. I don't know what happens 14 there. But yeah. Timing. Like, I don't know. 15 All I know is we're not judge and jury. All we 16 are is the -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : -- the questioners. 19 : Do the -. Find the facts. 20 : Gotcha. 21 : Can I see all the documents 22 we showed? You signed all? 23 : Yeah, he did. 24 : You sure. All right. 25 Anything in there, right? I think this -- EFTA00062470

179 1 : Nope. 2 : I think this part right 3 here now. Right? 4 : All right. Anything 5 else? 6 : If you can think of anything 7 else, anything else you think that you forgot 8 to share with us 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- you're (Indiscernible 11 *01:57:23). 12 : Now, on that note, 13 though, being that this will be reviewed, is 14 there anything you want to say for the record? 15 : Pretty much that, like, 16 although it may be a tragedy that he's gone, I 17 wasn't here, I didn't have anything to do with 18 it. And I really don't think that, you know, 19 Thomas and Noel should be going through what 20 they're going through. I'm not saying that 21 they didn't make a mistake. But that's 22 personal opinion. 23 : Okay. 24 Are you still in 25 communication with them? EFTA00062471

180 1 : No. I never had either one of 2 their phone numbers. 3 : Okay. 4 : Okay. Great. Well, I 5 appreciate your time. Thank you very much for 6 your cooperation. It is 7 : 8:16. 8 : -- 8:16 p.m. This is 9 Senior Special Agent , and I'm 10 turning off the recorder. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00062472

181 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00062473

EFTA00062474

EFTA00062475

EFTA00062476

EFTA00062477

EFTA00062478

EFTA00062479

EFTA00062480

EFTA00062481