LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 : Like I said earlier, 2 I think it was -. 3 : Can you do me a favor? Can 4 you sign it and date it just like before? 5 : Initial and date on the 6 top. 7 : Initial. 8 : Which one? 9 : All of them. 10 : Oh. Since I showed you. 11 : Okay. 12 : I'll take that. When did you 13 -? Did you make a round into the SHU on August 14 10th? 15 : Yes. 16 : What time? 17 : I don't remember what 18 time. It was like halfway between my shift 19 later on in the morning. 20 : Did you speak to -? 21 : Probably about 4:-- 22 something. Between 4:00 and 5:00 I guess. 23 : Do you recall who the COs 24 were on duty? 25 : Yes. Thomas and EFTA00114067

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 Noel. 2 : Okay. Did you speak to them? 3 : Yes. 4 : Okay. And everything was 5 good? Did they say have any complaints or 6 anything like that? 7 : No. They were fine. 8 : Do you recall your 9 conversation at all? 10 : I don't recall my 11 conversation with them, but I spoke to them for 12 a minute because I stopped there. I went up to 13 10 South and I made my rounds up there. And I 14 came back and I spoke with them again before I 15 left. 16 : So you spoke with them 17 twice? 18 : Yeah. I spoke with 19 them initially. And I told them you know when 20 I get back out -. I'm going to run up to 10 21 South and make my rounds and sign my books and 22 stuff up there. And then I'll get back with 23 you guys. I'll come back on my way down. 24 Because I needed to sign their round sheets. 25 : Okay. EFTA00114068

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 : Now you mentioned that you 2 don't know - you never heard of the requirement 3 for Epstein needing a cellmate. Right? 4 : Right. 5 : So you didn't know. 6 According to what you said before, you didn't 7 even know the COs knew that requirement. 8 : If I didn't know, I 9 know they didn't know. And according to that 10 because I don't even see -. Where is that 11 email? Because I want to see who did they 12 actually send that to. If it says on the email 13 who they sent that to. 14 : It looks like they sent 15 it up to all the officers, lieutenants and. 16 : This says suicide 17 watch/psych observation update. 18 : So on or around July 19 30th, Epstein came off of the suicide 20 observation and was placed back into the SHU. 21 And this was supposed to be the email saying 22 that he was required to have a cellmate while 23 he was in the SHU. 24 : Yeah, but this isn't 25 MYM all. EFTA00114069

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 : Right. So you said you 2 think it should have gone to all staff. 3 : Yeah-yeah. 4 : So I guess what I'm -. 5 : This is only 6 addressed to suicide - whoever is in that 7 group. It looks like a group that they made 8 up. Because I never heard of that group 9 before. Suicide watch/psych -. 10 : You never got the email from 11 them? 12 : Sure. So -. 13 : Slash psych 14 observation update. I guess that's a group. 15 : So these are the -. So 16 the one - pages one through three. These are 17 the people that they I guess placed in that -- 18 : That they placed in 19 that group. 20 : -- group. And it looks 21 like it's all the lieutenants and the officers 22 in the institution as opposed to the COs 23 themselves. 24 : You mean specific 25 officers? Specific staff? Because I can EFTA00114070

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 assure you that's not all of them. 2 : That's not all of them. 3 Yeah. So I don't know how they actually chose 4 it. But you said you know you were on it but 5 you don't recall receiving it. 6 : I do not recall 7 receiving that. 8 : Now do you know -? 9 don't know how it works here. I mean are you 10 in front of your computer? Do you read your 11 emails? How is that? 12 : During that time, I 13 will be honest with you. I didn't have time to 14 read any emails because in addition to not 15 having a lot of staff, we had a bunch of 16 incidents that were going on during that time 17 as well. 18 : Okay. 19 : A bunch of body 20 alarms and stuff like that that was going on. 21 And because of the fact that we were so short- 22 handed, you didn't have time to read emails and 23 stuff at the time. You just had too much to do 24 with the time in your shift. It was just way 25 too much. EFTA00114071

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 106 : Sure. : It was way too much. 3 : So although this was sent 4 to you, you don't think you probably even 5 clicked on it? 6 : I got a lot of emails 7 during that time that I can assure you I didn't 8 read. 9 : Sure. Alright. So you 10 were unaware. How does it work -? Just can 11 you walk me through specifically on, you know, 12 if Reyes the cellie. Did you know that Epstein 13 had a cellmate? 14 : I didn't know Epstein 15 had a cellmate. 16 : So you didn't even know 17 he had a cellmate at all? 18 : I didn't know if he 19 had a cellmate or not. 20 : Okay. 21 : When all of this 22 happened, it, of course, later came out that he 23 had a cellmate and the inmate was removed. But 24 as far as me having personal knowledge of 25 whether or not he had a cellmate, I didn't know EFTA00114072

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 if he had a cellmate or not. I assumed he had 2 a cellmate. 3 : Now being that you know 4 they sent this email. You said who should have 5 advised you at least at some point, hey he 6 needs a cellmate. Where was the communication 7 breakdown there? 8 : It wasn't just me. 9 It should have been everybody. 10 : Sure. So what my question 11 is though, who is responsible for that? 12 : The - you would think 13 that psychology would have called us or 14 somebody should have been making sure. 15 : Okay. So let's go 16 through that. From psychology, who should 17 who dropped the ball here? 18 : Well I'm not going to 19 say anybody dropped the ball because it's all 20 about responsibilities to -. 21 : But somebody - psychology 22 I guess made the note. So is it the person 23 that's on the email, this 24 Should have she gone around and aside from 25 sending this email should have she spoken to EFTA00114073

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 people or had a meeting? What should have 2 happened? 3 : I mean if that's what 4 she -. I just feel as though they that - to 5 communicate Like I said originally. My 6 whole thing was Epstein should have been placed 7 on 10 South to begin with because he was that 8 type of inmate that checked all the boxes for - 9 10 : Sure. 11 : -- someone that 12 should have been placed on 10 South. 13 : And that's going to be 14 one of my follow-up questions is what the 15 difference between the SHU and 10 South. But 16 specifically to this, like what should have 17 psychology done differently? 18 : I would have made 19 sure - I just would have -. I just would have 20 made sure that everybody -. I never even would 21 have sent Epstein back to -. I would have 22 never even put him back in that position again. 23 : So if he had -. 24 : If he had a cellmate 25 because even saying that he had a cellmate. EFTA00114074

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 Even telling somebody that he should have had a 2 cellmate. Still wouldn't have prevented him 3 from trying to harm himself. We had just went 4 through that. 5 : Sure. 6 : We - that was a 7 scenario when they got him. That got to the 8 memo being done. 9 : Okay. So -. 10 : You know? He had a 11 cellmate then. 12 : The other lieutenants 13 though in this case, they knew that he was 14 required to have a cellmate. Correct? 15 According to -- 16 : Yes. 17 : -- there? So it sounds 18 From reviewing the other interviews, it 19 looks like you were the one that didn't know. 20 Everyone else knew. Do you know why that would 21 have been? Who should have made sure you knew 22 that he needed a cellmate? 23 : I would think whoever 24 knew that he needed an inmate. 25 : So that's what I'm EFTA00114075

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 saying. Everyone else know. So like all the 2 other lieutenants and the captain. They all 3 said that they were aware that he was required 4 to have a cellmate. So the question -. So I 5 don't know if they got the information from the 6 email, if there was an all-hands. Who should 7 have made sure that you knew that he had a 8 cellmate? 9 : Okay. So if they 10 knew that. If everybody is saying that they 11 knew he should have had a cellmate, then why 12 didn't he have one? 13 : That's the -. 14 : How did we get to 15 that? 16 : That's the reason why 17 we're talking with you. That is the big issue 18 of why didn't he have one? Who? Where was the 19 communication breakdown? 20 : I don't know. 21 : So should have the 22 captain told you that? Should have the person 23 who relieved you that day? Should have that 24 person told you? Hey just so you know, Epstein 25 doesn't have a cellmate. EFTA00114076

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 : It would have been 2 nice to have, when I got relieved for someone 3 to have said yeah, by the way, we got this 4 email saying that we were notified the Epstein 5 now requires to have a cellmate. Yeah. That 6 would have been real helpful. 7 : So looking at the Friday, 8 August 9th. Was it -? It looks like 9 Was that the person who relieved you? As the 10 ops lieutenant? It looks like he was the ops 11 lieutenant. 12 : You relieved him. 13 : Yeah. I would have - 14 15 : No. She relieved him. 16 It was August 9th. 17 : Yeah. That would 18 have been who I would have relieved. 19 : Or he would have relieved 20 you. Correct? Because that's August 9th. You 21 started August 10th at 12:00 a.m. So let's see 22 how it shows here. 23 : I would have relieved 24 because was evening watch. 25 : But this was August 9th. EFTA00114077

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 And you started August 10th, 12:00 a.m. 2 : Right. So that would 3 have bene evening watch of -. 4 : You would have relieved 5 6 7 8 9 10 him. Correct. relieved him. told you? : Right. I would have : And so should have he : I would - I mean -. 11 : How would then -? Or 12 should have -? would have been gone. 13 So I'm assuming he would have been the one? 14 : Let me tell you 15 something. In the real world in a real 16 institution that was running in the manner in 17 which it should. 18 : Sure. 19 : Sure. That would 20 have -- 21 : And you're not saying -- 22 -- occurred. 23 that he did anything 24 wrong. 25 : And I'm not -. EFTA00114078

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 : Let's get this place up 2 to running as best as possible. 3 : No. Let me -. 4 : Where should have this 5 communication occurred? 6 : Let's make something 7 clear right now. 8 : Yeah. 9 : I'm not here to cover 10 for anybody. 11 : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 12 : I'm not here to make 13 excuses for anybody or any of that. 14 : Right. 15 : What I'm trying to 16 get over to you is that at that particular time 17 when - even before 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Um....this incident 20 happened with Epstein. Even before the 21 suicide. We were so busy with a number of 22 different things. 23 : Sure. 24 : We were here when we 25 were finding shanks every - an unusual amount EFTA00114079

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 of shanks, cell phones, drugs. Inmates were 2 going out of their mind on drugs and all this 3 other stuff. We had inmates fighting, inmates 4 getting stabbed, inmates getting slashed. 5 There were -. In addition to everything else 6 that we had to take care of. We were doing 7 uses of forces. We didn't' have adequate staff 8 to even do a use of force or even to respond to 9 a body alarm a lot of times. There were 10 incidents where we as lieutenants were the only 11 people here and had to do things. So -. 12 : So there's just 13 overwhelming -. You guys were just completely 14 overwhelmed. In the weeds. 15 : We -. At that time, 16 there was just so much going on. 17 : Right. 18 : You would be hell- 19 bent to stay abreast of every little thing that 20 was going on. You just -. When your relief 21 came, you know, you was like let me get some 22 fresh air. 23 : Just let me -. In this 24 circumstance. We're going to try to reign it 25 in specifically to -. EFTA00114080

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 : If everything was 2 going fine -- 3 : So how -. 4 : -- and on a good day. 5 Yes. 6 : Say he was - Reyes - 7 Epstein's inmate was released you know sometime 8 between 8:00 and 2:00. So I'm assuming the way 9 it should have worked is the CO should have 10 notified a lieutenant. The lieutenant maybe 11 should have notified the ops lieutenant. The 12 ops lieutenant should have notified the 13 captain. Is that the way it should have worked 14 in a perfect world? 15 : It depends on who is 16 here. 17 : But should -. So -- 18 : I'm saying that's -- 19 : -- that's why we're 20 looking at the 9th. 21 : -- what I would have 22 done. 23 : Right. 24 : I can't tell you what 25 somebody -- EFTA00114081

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Because - but would that 2 3 : -- else would have 4 done. 5 : -- be standard operating 6 procedure? That's the way it works? 7 : That's not standing. 8 That's just what I would have done. 9 : Okay. 10 : Just to make sure 11 that -. 12 : So let's say -. 13 : Just to answer the 14 questions that I would have had regarding that. 15 : So -. 16 : I can't explain -. I 17 can't tell you what somebody else would have 18 done. 19 : So let's say -- 20 : Or should have done. 21 for instance. 22 He was on the looks like 8:00 to 2:00 p.m. 23 Let's say he knew that Reyes was gone and 24 Epstein was required to have a cellmate. What 25 should have he done? Should have he notified 116 EFTA00114082

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 and should have he notified 2 used to -. If 3 he wasn't at that time, used to be the 4 SHU lieutenant. So probably would have 5 told them put somebody else in the cell with 6 him. 7 : Okay. 8 : You know? 9 : So you think he would 10 have just taken immediate action? 11 : I think he probably 12 would have said just put somebody in the cell 13 with him and called and say hey this 14 dude don't have a cellie. I took care of it or 15 whatever. 16 : Now what about if -- 17 : Or maybe he -. 18 : -- the executive staff 19 wants to have a hand in picking and choosing 20 who it is that Epstein is assigned to because 21 of his high-profile status? Should have 22 still done that temporarily? Or should have 23 just notified 24 : That is - that wasn't 25 written in stone. EFTA00114083

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 : Okay. 2 : That is something 3 that I would have done. 4 : You would have done what? 5 : I would - that's 6 something that I would have done. 7 : What, temporarily? 8 : I'm not saying that 9 that's across the board that every operations 10 lieutenant that was here that day and was that 11 found themselves in that position. I'm not 12 going to say that's what -. There's no 13 standard procedure for that situation because 14 that's out of the ordinary. First of all, if 15 we're going to go by what should have been 16 done, Epstein should have been on 10 South. 17 That's what should have been done. 18 : Okay. 19 : Period. 20 : And what -? 21 : Now everything when 22 23 : So you keep on going back 24 to 10 South. 25 : Right because -- EFTA00114084

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 : What the difference 2 between -- 3 : -- that's how -- 4 : -- 10 South -? 5 -- important it is. 6 : So what's the difference 7 between 10 South and the SHU? 8 : The difference 9 between SHU is that SHU is for general 10 population inmates. 11 : Okay. 12 : You know. You're not 13 guaranteed to have a cellie there. You know. 14 So you may have a cellie and you may not. 15 Epstein was a high-profile inmate. All high- 16 profile inmates they usually assign to 10 17 South. Epstein had just -. Even before he 18 committed suicide. Everybody knew and that's 19 not just here. That's people in the region. 20 You know all the way up to Donald Trump knew 21 Epstein was here. You know. And when you look 22 at Donald Trump all the way down the line, you 23 know, to the regional director, the 24 correctional services administrator. All those 25 people should have been involved in where EFTA00114085

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 Epstein was placed when he got here. Now that 2 you know because they failed to do their job, 3 you know, and place him on 9 South where he 4 never should have been to begin with. 5 : Nine South or 10? Oh 6 they put him in 9 South. 7 : 9 South. 8 : Okay. 9 : They placed him in 10 regular old SHU. 11 : Okay. 12 : For inmates that 13 faced disciplinary action. Inmates that are 14 being separated from other inmates on 15 protective custody. Those to - things of that 16 nature. 17 : So -. 18 : If he -. 19 : In 10 South, do inmates 20 all have cellmates in 10 South? 21 : Inmates on 10 South 22 don't have cellmates. But. 23 : Okay. 24 : What they do have up 25 there And I'm telling you he should have EFTA00114086

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/. 1 been put up there from day one. Most 2 especially after he attempted suicide. So if 3 you didn't place him up there from day one. 4 When he attempted suicide with a cellmate. 5 Okay? Let's not forget that because when he 6 attempted suicide, he had a cellmate. 7 : Yeah but isn't the reason 8 why he didn't - wasn't successful partly 9 because of the cellmate? My understanding was 10 because once you're - once you commit suicide, 11 you want another person to try to prevent it 12 from actually a suicide being successful. So 13 if they want someone in there to basically 14 watch him, wouldn't they want him in the SHU 15 versus 10 South? 16 : You're not guaranteed 17 that -. 18 : You're not guaranteed but 19 I think that the purpose of him being required 20 a cellmate was that they want someone in there. 21 And that's why they wanted him vetted. Because 22 the purpose was so that someone could be 23 watching him partly. If he's trying to hang 24 himself, there's obviously going to be another 25 cellmate in there saying what are you going? EFTA00114087

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 : First of all, an 2 inmate don't owe you nothing. 3 : Sure. 4 : Another inmate don't 5 owe you anything. And another inmate by policy 6 is not to be supervising another inmate. So by 7 you saying - because I don't even agree with 8 inmate companions. 9 : Okay. 10 : I've known a lot of 11 inmate companions who would antagonize the 12 person on watch just so they hang their damn 13 selves. Okay? 14 : Okay. 15 : So for you to sit 16 here and put somebody who you know is as high- 17 profile and as important as everybody made 18 Epstein out to be at that time, you relied on a 19 random inmate to keep him safe. I mean, that's 20 You're fooling yourself. 21 : Okay. 22 : You're fooling 23 yourself. 24 : Okay. So just for your 25 own personal opinion was that he should have EFTA00114088

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 been on 10 South and he shouldn't have had an 2 inmate at all. He should have just had closer 3 eyes on by staff members? 4 : That's not my 5 personal opinion. That's my professional 6 opinion. 7 : Right. 8 : Because I've worked 9 in this environment -- 10 : Sure. 11 : -- long enough to 12 know -- 13 : Okay. 14 : -- that if somebody 15 said important to you -- 16 : Where psychology -. 17 : -- and you wanted to 18 keep them safe, and for the type of inmate that 19 he was, that was the best environment for him. 20 They have cameras up there in every cell. And 21 they have a staff member -. 22 : There's cameras in the 23 cell themselves? 24 : There's cameras in 25 each individual cell. And there is - the EFTA00114089

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 officers have monitors right by their desk. 2 : Okay. 3 : So. 4 : So if they would have had 5 eyes on at all times. 6 : They would have had 7 eyes on him at all times. 8 : Awesome. Okay. So 9 alright. I just wanted to get -. 10 : And I mean 11 : I really wanted to find 12 out though, in this specific circumstance, who 13 should have told you? That's the main 14 question. 15 : I mean a lot of 16 people. 17 : Who should have informed 18 you. 19 : A lot of people could 20 have told me. 21 : Right. 22 : A lot of people could 23 have told me. 24 : And you didn't have any 25 conversations with anyone about that EFTA00114090

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 requirement? Because again, it seems like 2 everybody else knew. You didn't. So I'm just 3 trying to figure out where that communication 4 breakdown -. 5 : I don't know where it 6 7 : - occurred. 8 : -- occurred. 9 : Okay. 10 : To be honest with 11 you. 12 : Okay. Would have it been 13 the captain is responsible for that? Or is it 14 in this instance, since you said you didn't 15 know at all, should have told 16 told you? 17 : I don't -. Look. 18 Look. I'm not going to sit here and tell you 19 what somebody could have, should have, would 20 have done. Because like I said, there was a 21 lot of things going on at this institution. 22 we're going to say "shoulda-woulda-coulda," 23 then we should have had adequate staffing. 24 : Yep. 25 : We shouldn't have had EFTA00114091

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 staff here that were dead on their feet. 2 : Sure. 3 : You know. Trying to 4 watch an inmate. And when all those 5 circumstances that was going on, there was a 6 lot of things that we should have been doing 7 that wasn't done. So it's not just about what 8 happened to Epstein. It's about everything 9 else surrounding his death that occurred that 10 didn't happen. 11 : That's one point. 12 : That should have been 13 occurring that didn't happen. 14 : Okay. Now let's - I'm going 15 to take it out. Let's say you're on shift. 16 Inmate attempted to commit suicide. You know 17 there's an issue with the inmate. You're 18 leaving the shift. Do you have a conversation 19 with the person you're relieving - I mean 20 whoever's relieving you? Do you have a 21 conversation with that person and advise then. 22 what happened during your shift? 23 : Yes. I would -. 24 : Why? Why would you do it? 25 Just to, what reason -. EFTA00114092

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 : Because look. Let me 2 explain something to you. 3 : No-no-no. I just need an 4 explanation. 5 : No-no-no. I'm going 6 to give you an explanation. But I'm going to 7 give you the explanation that best suits the 8 question that you're -- 9 : Okay. 10 : -- asking me. When 11 we do these pass downs, everybody is different. 12 Some people tell you verbatim everything that 13 happened. Some people don't. That's just the 14 nature of the beast. You know. I could sit 15 here all day and say somebody should have told 16 me something. Or you know if they had the 17 information. But when you've got so many 18 things on your mind and you've dealt with so 19 many things during the course of the day, you 20 know, people don't want to continue to stand 21 there and do it. People forget. I mean they 22 could have been standing there talking to me 23 for five minutes with all the things that go on 24 during the course of the day. You know. 25 That's not just here. That's every place I've EFTA00114093

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 been when it comes to pass down. Some people 2 will tell you a bunch of stuff depending on 3 when it happened during the course of the day 4 and whatever else came behind it or came before 5 it. People they -- 6 : No, I understand that. No- 7 no. I just -. 8 : -- don't always 9 remember. 10 : I get that. But let's just 11 say as Agent already mentioned. If 12 there was instructions form the captain down 13 and the lieutenant. Let's say Lieutenant 14 was aware of the instructions, and was clear 15 instructions that Epstein had to have a 16 cellmate. And he knew that the cellmate was 17 removed. What was -. Let's just say in a 18 perfect world. What was his role? When he 19 left the shift. What should he have done? 20 would have 21 : No-no-no. It's not "would 22 have." What should he have done? 23 : They would have 24 already had -. If you're telling me that this 25 inmate left at what time? EFTA00114094

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 : Well he left the cell at 2 8:30 and by 1:30 he was gone from the 3 institution. 4 : Okay. So by the time 5 I got here at 10:00 at night, he should have 6 already had. That should have already been 7 taken care of. 8 : Okay. And that's what 9 we're asking. Who should have taken care of 10 it? 11 : The first person to 12 have known that he didn't have a cellie. 13 : So if was that 14 person, should have he, what should have he 15 done? doesn't work for the BOP anymore. 16 So we're just asking what should have happened? 17 : It doesn't matter 18 even if he was still -- 19 : I know. I just -. 20 : -- working for the 21 Bureau. I mean. If someone knew for a fact 22 that he was supposed to have had a cellie. And 23 they received some type of information or they 24 came aware of the fact that he didn't. And 25 that inmate was never coming back. Depending EFTA00114095

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 on that, they should have questioned to see 2 what was the circumstances surrounding that. 3 When they determine what the circumstances were 4 based upon the fact that if he was coming back 5 or whether or not he wasn't coming back, then 6 they should have made arrangements for him to 7 get another cellie. 8 : Okay. I'm done. Can I see 9 the roster one more time? 10 : Yeah. And then let's 11 stay specific to your instance, so we don't 12 have to ask you like what should have they 13 done? So as far as yours. If you - and again 14 you weren't. But if you were aware that he was 15 required to have a cellmate. Was there any 16 action that you should have or could have taken 17 between the hours that you were working? 18 : If I -. 19 : Could cell mates have 20 been reassigned at that time of night? 21 : Morning watch is not 22 the time to be moving inmates around because it 23 presents too much of a safety issue. 24 : Sure. 25 : And being that, if we EFTA00114096

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 don't have adequate staffing, then Morning 2 watch, period. You're not even supposed to be 3 opening doors on morning watch. 4 : So that's my question. 5 If had told you, which obviously he 6 didn't. Correct? 7 : Correct. 8 : If he had, could have you 9 even taken action? 10 : I would have 11 contacted -. Like I said. I would have called 12 or psychology or somebody. 13 : So even at that time of 14 night? 15 : Even at that - yes. 16 Even at that time of the night. 17 : Okay. 18 : To figure out what's 19 going on with I mean I can't justify just 20 leaving him up there without a cellie if he's 21 supposed to have one. How am I going to 22 justify that? And that's not even something 23 that I would even risk. 24 : What about the COs? If 25 the COs knew - so Noel and Thomas - that he was EFTA00114097

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 required to have a cellmate. Should have they 2 notified you? 3 : They should have 4 notified me. If they knew that he was supposed 5 to have a cellie and he didn't, yes. And they 6 would have. 7 : And in this -? 8 : If they had known 9 that they would have. 10 : In this instance they 11 never notified you though. Correct? 12 : No. 13 : So they didn't tell you, 14 and during this 4:00 a.m., it sounds like you 15 talked to them twice. They never told you that 16 Epstein didn't' have a cellmate? 17 : No. 18 : Did they discuss Epstein 19 with you at all? 20 : No. 21 : Okay. And did they - 22 when they called control or any communications 23 you had over the telephone - did they ever 24 discuss Epstein? 25 : No. EFTA00114098

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 : Or the cellmate? 2 : No. 3 : Okay. 4 : No. 5 : So these are the 6 questions. We just want more like yes-no like 7 this. And I don't mean to rush you, but we 8 have a bunch of other interviews we have to 9 conduct. So if we can keep to those like yes- 10 no type of things would be so appreciated on 11 our end. 12 : Well I can assure you 13 that everything is not going to be a flat yes 14 or no answer. 15 : Absolutely. I 100% get 16 that. 17 : Because nothing in 18 this business is -- 19 : Right. 20 : -- flat yes or no. 21 It's all off the cuff. So. 22 : Absolutely. And that's 23 what we're just saying. Like if knew, 24 what should have he done. It sounds like what 25 you're saying is he should have notified the EFTA00114099

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 captain and he should have made sure a cellmate 2 was put in there. If knew, same thing. 3 He should have notified the captain, he should 4 have put someone there. If you knew, you 5 should have notified the caption, you should 6 have put someone there. That's just the kind 7 of what the ops lieutenant does. Would it be 8 basically the ops lieutenant if it came up to 9 that person? They notify the captain. They 10 make sure it's done. Is that a fair 11 assessment? 12 : Yeah. That's a fair 13 assessment. And you're just notifying - and 14 the only reason why we're letting the captain 15 know is to let him know. Hey, you know you 16 guys, we keep telling you this guy should be on 17 10 South, but you keep him on SHU. And we keep 18 running into these close - really, really, 19 close calls. 20 : So the staff -. 21 : So that's one reason 22 why -- 23 : Is the staff ever -? 24 : -- you notify them. 25 : Did you ever have any EFTA00114100

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 discussions about him needing to be 10 South 2 with anyone prior to -? 3 : Everybody was telling 4 them that he needed to be on 10 South. 5 Everybody knew that. 6 : Alright. So prior to him 7 even dying, you know, prior to August 10th. It 8 was the captain and above were notified, hey we 9 need to get him on 10 South? 10 : Let me tell you 11 something. If we as lieutenants are 12 responsible for knowing everything that we're 13 supposed to know. And we're running this 14 institution off the cuff, we don't know what's 15 going to happen here at any given time of the 16 day or night. If we're required to know that, 17 you think that these cats in the region and in 18 the central office and at the executive staff 19 level don't know the same thing that or more 20 than we know? 21 : So I guess the question 22 is have you ever had any conversation - did you 23 ever have any conversations with the caption 24 yourself at that time? 25 : We've mentioned to EFTA00114101

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 them several times that Epstein should be on 10 2 South. 3 : So who did you have 4 conversations with regarding that? 5 : We've - I've never 6 had a conversation with anybody. But during 7 these times, when this stuff was happening, I 8 used to always say you guys need to put Epstein 9 on 10 South. Epstein needs to be on 10 South. 10 : So my question is when 11 you say, "you guys," who were you saying that 12 to? 13 . I would tell 14 15 : So you specifically told 16 17 : I would tell 18 that -. 19 : Do you remember what his 20 responses were? 21 : No. I don't remember 22 what his Apparently, it was nothing. He 23 never got moved. 24 : Right. And that's what I 25 just meant. Did you say like did he EFTA00114102

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 acknowledge at least that information that was 2 provided to him? Hey, he should be on 10 3 South? 4 : I don't know if he 5 did or not. 6 : But you do recall 7 actually telling him that? 8 : We all used to say 9 that Epstein needs to be 10 South. 10 : Did you do it with a 11 group of other lieutenants when you say, "we 12 all used to?" 13 : No. 14 : But you yourself. Do you 15 recall at least on one occasion or more that 16 you told that? 17 : Yeah. I mentioned to 18 that Epstein should be on 10 South. 19 Yes. 20 : Prior to August 10th? 21 : I don't know what the 22 date was. 23 : I just mean prior to him 24 dying you told him this? 25 : Yes. Prior to him EFTA00114103

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 dying. And after he died. I mean. 2 : Okay. Sorry, I'll hand 3 it back over to you. I apologize for 4 hijacking. 5 : Do you have anything else on 6 that topic? Because I'm going to jump through 7 that. 8 : No. The main things, 9 again, are these about the email. Why it 10 wasn't received. The cellmate requirements 11 which she said that she didn't, who was 12 responsible for telling her that? What action 13 should have been taken. What did she know -? 14 : That's (Indiscernible 15 *02:01:29) 16 : Sure. 17 : So I'm just going to jump to 18 a different topic. 19 : And you mentioned how 20 cameras are so important in 10 South. So now 21 we're going to talk about the cameras that were 22 actually in the SHU. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : So basic question. Who had 25 access to see what was happening on the EFTA00114104

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 cameras? 2 : What cameras? 3 : The cameras inside the MCC. 4 As a lieutenant did you ever utilize the 5 cameras for your job? 6 : I mean what cameras 7 are you talking about? Because we don't - 8 those of us who have access to cameras don't 9 have access to the same cameras or -. 10 : You want to know about 11 the SHU cameras. 12 : Yeah. It's about the SHU 13 cameras. 14 : Who has access to the SHU 15 cameras? 16 : Control. The control 17 center has access to the SHU cameras. We have 18 access to the SHU cameras. And as far as I 19 know, that's it. 20 : When you say "we," is 21 that the lieutenant's office? 22 : The lieutenant's 23 office. 24 : Do you normally utilize the 25 cameras for your job at all? For you daily EFTA00114105

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 routine. Do you ever use it? 2 : If we're looking for 3 - say we're looking for somebody say internal. 4 : Okay. 5 : We may glance at the 6 camera to see if we see them or something like 7 that. But we're not sitting there. We don't 8 even have time to do that. And even if we did, 9 we wouldn't be doing it. We're not sitting up 10 there the whole time during our shift and just 11 looking at the cameras to see what's going on. 12 : No. That's not what I mean. 13 I just want to know. At that time - around 14 that time period, did you know that there were 15 cameras inside the MCC that were not working? 16 : I don't believe I 17 did. 18 : So it -. 19 : Specific to the SHU. 20 : Oh. No. 21 : Did you know the cameras 22 23 : No. 24 : -- in the SHU were -- 25 : No-no-no. EFTA00114106

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 -- not working? 2 : No-no-no. I wasn't 3 aware. 4 : So even though you were 5 the lieutenant at that night did you not know - 6 7 : The only cameras that 8 I would know that I would be aware of if 9 they're working or not would be the cameras 10 that I have access to which I can look on the 11 TV monitor and see that they're actively not 12 working at the time. Or one of the other staff 13 members who have access to cameras would call 14 and tell me or say something to me about that 15 camera not working. 16 : And did you know on 17 August 10th during your shift or I guess late 18 August 9th, early August 10th, that any cameras 19 in the SHU were not working? 20 : No. I wasn't aware of 21 that. 22 : As far as you remember, 23 were the live portion of the cameras working in 24 there? The ones that you were able to monitor 25 in real-time. EFTA00114107

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 : The camera that we 2 had access to from the lieutenant's office at 3 the time was working. 4 : Would that show you both 5 the staff members as well as the range? 6 : That camera only - 7 that camera was really -. The visibility on it 8 was bad. It has always been bad. 9 : So was it only one camera 10 that you could access from your office of the 11 SHU? 12 : There was only one 13 camera that's up there on that monitor. 14 : Okay. And what does that 15 camera show? 16 : I think it shows like 17 the common area. 18 : Okay. So it doesn't even 19 20 : The SHU. 21 : -- show the range? 22 : The ranges and stuff 23 like that? No. 24 : But are there cameras on 25 the range? EFTA00114108

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 : Yes. There's cameras 2 on the range. 3 : So who has access to 4 monitor that? 5 : I mean whoever has it 6 up on their computer -. 7 : Okay. So you could 8 toggle through what you want to look at. 9 : We can't toggle 10 through -- 11 : Okay. 12 : -- on our cameras in 13 the lieutenant's office. No. 14 : Okay. 15 : And I don't 16 : So in the lieutenant's 17 office, it's just Would control center? 18 Would they be the ones that would be having 19 eyes on the range? 20 : Nobody is sitting 21 around watching the range. 22 : Sure. 23 : The only people who 24 would be watching the cameras is the officers 25 that's assigned to 10 South. EFTA00114109

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 : Okay. 2 : Because they have the 3 monitors right there at their desks. 4 : 10 South or 9 South? 5 : 10 South. 6 : So 10 South watches the 7 SHU as well? 8 : No. Ten South 9 watches the inmates assigned to 10 South. 10 : Oh. Sorry. But specific 11 We're talking specifically to the SHU. So 12 if, for instance, the range -. 13 : No. You asked me who 14 would be watching SHU. Who would have access 15 to those cameras? And I'm telling you the only 16 person who would be watching any cameras and 17 who is required to watch them would be the 18 officers that are assigned to 10 South. 19 Outside of that -- 20 : But my question is -- 21 : -- nobody is watching 22 any camera. 23 : -- so no one is watching 24 it. But who -- 25 : As far as I know. EFTA00114110

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 : -- would have had access 2 to it I guess is what we're saying. Who - if 3 someone wanted to look at the range within the 4 special housing unit, who would have access to 5 that camera? 6 : I don't know if 7 control has access to that. 8 : Okay. But your point is 9 no one's watching that. So if it's down, who 10 would know and how? 11 : I would think the 12 people who are responsible for the cameras 13 would know. 14 : And who is responsible 15 for the cameras? 16 : The um, the 17 communication guys. 18 : Do you know who -? 19 : And that would be if 20 they -. I don't even know if they look at 21 every camera every day to make sure that -- 22 : Sure. 23 : -- they operative 24 because usually, staff reports that camera 25 stuff when they notice it. EFTA00114111

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 : Well how - so would 2 people in the SHU know that their cameras were 3 down? 4 : I don't know if they 5 would know that. I have no way of knowing 6 that. 7 : You just said if staff 8 reported it. So that's the question would be 9 like, if the range camera in the SHU was down, 10 who would know? Who would they notify? Who 11 was responsible? Do you follow? So how would 12 they know that the range camera was down? 13 : I have no idea how 14 they would know. 15 : You don't know? 16 : Unless they have 17 access to it and they know - they can see it on 18 a monitor or something like that and see that 19 it's not working. I don't know outside of that 20 how they would know. 21 : DO you know -? 22 : Unless they was told. 23 I don't know. 24 : Does the SHU have access 25 to that? EFTA00114112

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 : Not that I'm aware 2 of. 3 : Okay. So but you think 4 the communications would be the ones that would 5 know. Who in communications would be 6 responsible for getting it taken care of - 7 fixing the cameras? 8 : If they knew about 9 it? 10 : Right. 11 : The guys that work in 12 communications. 13 : All of them collectively? 14 Or is there one person? 15 : I - look. Look. I 16 don't work in communications. 17 : Sure. 18 : So I don't know if 19 one would know, another one would know, or if 20 they both would know at the same time. I don't 21 know. I can't tell you how another department 22 operates or how they conduct their business. 23 : Okay. Was there someone 24 named Mr. Daniels? (Phonetic Sp. *02:07:26) 25 : Mr. Daniels worked EFTA00114113

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 down there. Yes. 2 : Would he be potentially 3 the one responsible for fixing it? 4 : I'm not going to say 5 he would be responsible for fixing it. But if 6 he was notified of it, he would have done it. 7 : What was his -? 8 : Okay. 9 : I mean if that was 10 his job. If that's what people in this 11 institution wanted. 12 : Okay. And what -? 13 : Look. Let me make 14 this clear to you. I don't know what the 15 communications instructions were regarding 16 : And we're not asking you 17 those questions. I'm sorry. We're not asking 18 you -. We're not looking at you to solve all 19 the problems. We just need to know like as far 20 as like if a camera goes down, who fixes it? 21 : If a staff member had 22 access to a camera and that camera went out, we 23 would call the communications department to 24 have them take a look at that camera and to 25 repair it or replace it, to fix it or whatever EFTA00114114

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 needed to be done. 2 : And roughly how quickly - 3 : And that depends on 4 who answered the phone. That would be whoever 5 was working down there at the time, depending 6 on which one answered the phone. That's who we 7 would relay that information to. We weren't 8 picky about talking to a specific person. It 9 would be like if they work in that area, then 10 they should be capable of doing whatever it is 11 that we need to do to restore the cameras. Or 12 whatever manner they need to go about getting 13 it done. 14 : How quickly usually does 15 that get resolved? If a camera goes down, do 16 they really get it back up and running pretty 17 quickly? Or does it take days? 18 : If they're here and 19 they can replace it, they replace it on the 20 spot. 21 : ON the spot? 22 : Right. 23 : Would it be abnormal for 24 it to take So if someone reported it on a 25 Thursday, would it be abnormal for them to wait EFTA00114115

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 until Monday to fix it? 2 : I don't -. I can't 3 say that because I don't know what the 4 circumstances would be concerning why they're 5 waiting until Monday to do it. 6 : Okay. 7 : During your time as a 8 lieutenant during that time period, did you 9 ever see any cameras down for any extended 10 period of time? 11 : Not that I can recall 12 right at this very moment. 13 : And Mr. Daniels. What was 14 his position? Do you remember? 15 : He's the 16 communications officer. I think that's his 17 title. 18 : Do you know his first 19 name? 20 : No. 21 : I'm going to jump. 22 : Yeah. Please. 23 : Do you recall when you came 24 that evening August 9th. That evening when you 25 came on the shift. Do you recall hearing about EFTA00114116

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Epstein making a phone call? 2 : (Indiscernible 3 *02:09:51). 4 : Do you recall that? 5 : No. 6 : Okay. Is it normal practice 7 -? I'm just going to -. Is it normal practice 8 -? Let's say an inmate had to make a phone 9 call. And the inmate doesn't have that line, 10 you know the PIN set up for them, is it normal 11 for an officer to use the legal line to allow 12 the inmate to make a phone call? 13 : Not that I'm aware 14 of. 15 : Okay. Have you ever heard of 16 anyone using the legal line for other, for 17 anything unauthorized? 18 : No. 19 : Okay. Did you interact or 20 see Epstein on August 9th? Interact with or 21 see Epstein on August 9th? 22 : No. 23 : Okay. 24 : So neither August 9th nor 25 August 10th? EFTA00114117

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : No. : Did you ever have any 152 3 interactions with Epstein? 4 : Yes, I've had 5 interaction. When he committed the suicide - 6 when he attempted suicide. I interacted with 7 him then. 8 : What about after that 9 date? 10 : After that day, no. 11 : Did you even see him 12 after that day? 13 : No. 14 : No? What about the cells 15 in the SHU? Can you see through them or are 16 they like, do you open up a slide in order to 17 see in? 18 : No. You can see 19 through it. 20 : You can see through them? 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : From the SHU desk, can 23 you see? 24 : No. No. No. No. 25 : So if Epstein's desk I EFTA00114118

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 think that's what we're showing you before was 2 the SHU layout. I think it was 15 feet - the 3 closest cell to where the people are sitting in 4 the SHU. They cannot see -. 5 : I don't care where 6 you are inside a housing unit. You cannot see 7 from any - unless you're standing there in that 8 window, you can't see inside somebody's 9 : And is the window open 10 the whole time? 11 : I mean you may be 12 able to see if their light is on or something 13 like that. Whatever that window - whatever you 14 can see from that vantage point, you may be 15 able to see like the corner of something or 16 whatever. But no. 17 : Is the window open the 18 whole time? Or do you have to open it and 19 close it? 20 : The window is open 21 all the time. 22 : And about how big is that 23 window? 24 : I don't know how big 25 it is. EFTA00114119

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 : Is it like 12 inches by 2 12 inches? 3 : I don't know how big 4 it is. 5 : Okay. But you've been in 6 the SHU though? 7 : Yes I've been in the 8 SHU. But I don't have to measure the window to 9 tell you how big it is. 10 : But I mean the difference 11 between like you know a three-foot by two-feet 12 or is it like -? 13 : I'm not going to - 14 I'm not even going to speculate on the 15 measurements. I mean. 16 : Is it -? 17 : I don't know how big. 18 I don't know the measurements of the window. 19 : So we've never been in 20 there. So we're just asking because we've 21 never put eyes on - in the SHU. So is it a 22 large thing that you can - where you have to 23 kind of like get up close to it or -? 24 : No. It's a little 25 narrow. It's a small window. It's not a big, EFTA00114120

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 huge window where -. 2 : So would it be like as 3 big as this? 4 : No. It wouldn't be 5 that big. 6 : So smaller than basically 7 12X12? Roughly 16X12? 8 : Sir, go up there and 9 look at the window. Because I don't 10 : Okay. 11 : -- know the 12 measurements of the window. 13 : Okay. So for the record, 14 I'm holding up a piece of paper that's roughly 15 16 inches by 12 inches. And it is being said 16 that it is smaller than that. 17 SHU inmates. What are they 18 allowed to have in their cell? What kind of 19 items are they allowed to have inside their 20 cell? If you're placed in the SHU. 21 : It depends on what your 22 status is in the SHU. I mean you have inmates 23 that are in there on AD status. You have 24 inmates that -- 25 : What's AD? EFTA00114121

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- are on DS. 2 Administrative Detention. You have inmates 3 that they're on disciplinary segregation. You 4 have inmates up there that are up there for 5 protective custody. You have inmates up there 6 for various reasons. So there is different 7 items that each, depending on their status, 8 they are allowed to have. 9 : So there's no set SHU policy 10 on what inmate is allowed to have and not have 11 in the cell? 12 : I don't know what 13 their polices - what their policy is. If they 14 have a set policy here, in general, I've never 15 seen a set policy for this institution in 16 particular about what the inmates can have or 17 what they couldn't have if they're in SHU. 18 : Okay so no -. 19 : But I'm sure there 20 has to be something. 21 : So what kind of holding was 22 Epstein under? What would he fall under? 23 : I don't know what. 24 To be honest with you, I don't know what, 25 because he wasn't up there for disciplinary 156 EFTA00114122

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lr - 1 action. He wasn't up there pending 2 disciplinary action. So I'm going to - and I 3 don't want to say he was up there for 4 protective custody. Because like I said 5 previously, and I'll continue to say that, for 6 someone in his position, he never should have 7 been up on SHU. 8 : Now someone in the SHU. Are 9 they allowed to have the same types of items as 10 a normal person in a regular cell? Or they 11 have only a limited amount of items? 12 : Um, Epstein, to be 13 honest with you, there's no telling what they 14 didn't allow Epstein to have in his cell. 15 : Why do you say it like that? 16 : I say it like that 17 because I know that he was always trying to get 18 things that he wasn't supposed to have. And to 19 be honest with you, I don't know if they 20 approved them or not. 21 : What was he trying to get? 22 : He was - when he was 23 in attorney conference he was trying to get his 24 meals delivered - his hot trays and stuff like 25 that. Regular inmate trays delivered to EFTA00114123

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 attorney conference. Things of that nature. 2 So -. 3 : Did he get special 4 privileges? 5 : I don't know if he 6 did or not because I worked nights. So I 7 didn't' have a lot of interactions with Epstein 8 or any other inmates during the daytime because 9 I wasn't here. 10 : Was Epstein allowed to have 11 pill bottles in his cell? 12 : I don't know if he 13 was or not. 14 : Are inmates allowed to have 15 pill bottles in the cell? 16 : If medical says that 17 they can have them, yes. 18 : Okay. How many changes of 19 clothing or linens are inmates allowed to have 20 in the SHU? 21 : I don't know what 22 their policy is up there on SHU. My previous 23 institution, they in SHU, they don't have any 24 exchange of clothing up in SHU. When they get 25 their shower, their rec and shower, they're EFTA00114124

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 given a new set of clothing at that time. But 2 they don't maintain any additional clothing in 3 the special housing unit outside of that. I 4 don't know what they do here. But that's how 5 it was always done at my previous institution. 6 : So inmates shouldn't have two 7 or three different pairs of -? 8 : Like I said, I don't 9 know what their policy is or was in SHU at that 10 time because things change here. Because 11 things around here change on a moment-to-moment 12 basis. 13 : How was Epstein interaction 14 with other inmates? Did he have any issues 15 with any inmates? 16 : I don't know what his 17 interaction was with other inmates. 18 : When was the last time you 19 interacted with Epstein? 20 : I just told you. 21 When he attempted suicide. 22 : Okay. Do you know why 23 Epstein was in prison? 24 : Uh, because of some 25 allegation that he was having - engaging in EFTA00114125

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 sexual acts with underage females. 2 : So the next set of questions 3 is just general questions we have to ask. Did 4 you have any specific feelings regarding why he 5 was in prison? 6 : No. 7 : Okay. Did you speak about 8 Epstein with other inmates? 9 : No. 10 : What time did you leave shift 11 hat day? I know -. 12 : It was right after 13 5:00. 14 : After 5:00? 15 : Yes. 16 : And when did you hear about 17 the incident? 18 : I think it was - I 19 was working late that day because I had some 20 I was still finishing up my work. And I don't 21 know probably 7:00 sometime after 7:00 I guess. 22 : You left after 7:00? Or you 23 heard after 7:00? 24 : I think it was after 25 7:00. I wasn't really looking at the clock. EFTA00114126

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 was here working. I had went downstairs to 2 finish some work that I had that I didn't get 3 to finish during my shift. And at some point 4 in time, that's when I heard that um that they 5 had had a medical emergency up in SHU. 6 : But were you here on the 7 premises? 8 : Yes. I was still 9 here. 10 : Did you respond up there at 11 all? 12 : I called up there to 13 make sure everybody was okay. And they - when 14 I asked who was up there they was telling me 15 that they didn't have but one or two staff 16 members up there. So yes. I went up there to 17 see if they needed some help because I knew 18 feeding and all that stuff still needed to be 19 done. 20 : So when you went up to the 21 SHU after the incident, was Epstein still in 22 the SHU or was he removed already? 23 : No. He wasn't there. 24 : He wasn't there. Did you get 25 to see the inside of the cell? EFTA00114127

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : No. No. Nope. : Did you have any 162 3 communications with or Tova Noel 4 after this incident? 5 : Noel was still there. 6 I asked her if she was okay. And she said, you 7 know, not really. And I went to help them feed 8 and shortly after that, when I came back up out 9 the range after feeding the tier, she was gone. 10 They had pulled her off her post. 11 : Okay. After that day, did 12 you have any communications with them? 13 : No. 14 : Okay. 15 : When inmates come off of 16 suicide watch and are in or assigned to the 17 SHU, so suicide watch to the SHU. Are they 18 assigned a cellmate? 19 : One more time. 20 : So when inmates come off 21 of suicide watch or psych observation and 22 they're on psych observation due to suicide 23 watch, are they assigned If they are then 24 assigned to the SHU, are they assigned a 25 cellmate? EFTA00114128

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : No. : No? When you said that 3 you were working nights, were you working 4 nights all in August 2019? 5 : I don't. If that was 6 my quarterly post, more than likely I was. But 7 offhand I can't remember. 8 : Do you remember if you 9 would have been working days as well? I'm just 10 trying to rectify -. 11 : I mean I would have 12 to look at my schedule. 13 : Sure. 14 : I don't know if I was 15 working both or if I was strictly assigned to 16 that one. I'm not sure. 17 : Okay. 18 : I just had a follow-up on 19 that. 20 : So you said. Sorry, go 21 ahead. 22 : Did you work overtime during 23 that time? 24 : What do you mean? 25 : You mentioned everyone's EFTA00114129

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 working overtime during that time. Right? 2 Everyone's mandated and everything. 3 : I'm sure at some 4 point in time. I don't' know if it was around 5 that time, but yeah. If a lieutenant then 6 called in sick, yeah. We was required to stay 7 and work that shift. 8 : Would that be -? So that 9 would be the day watch? 10 : It could have been 11 either or. Well depending on what shift you're 12 working. 13 : So you said you were 14 involved with responding to the July 23rd 15 incident where Epstein originally tried to 16 commit suicide? 17 : Yes. 18 : Now is it your 19 understanding that he tried to commit suicide? 20 : As far as I know. 21 : Did you hear anything 22 about his cellmate attempting to kill him? 23 : There was some 24 reference that I guess he had mentioned at that 25 time that his cellmate had done that to him. EFTA00114130

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 But when I went back and spoke to him he never 2 mentioned that to me. He never said anything. 3 : When you say, you 4 actually questioned Epstein? 5 : Yes. 6 : And what did he say to 7 you? 8 : He didn't say 9 anything. He really didn't say anything about 10 the incident. He said that he had gotten up to 11 get some water and the next thing he knew -. 12 think that was what he said. He had gotten up. 13 I would have to look at my memo. I think he 14 said he had gotten up to get some water or 15 something like that. And the next thing he 16 knew we were there. 17 : Okay. And what number 18 were you in responding? 19 : I don't know what - 20 if I was first if we went because usually when 21 we respond to an emergency, we -. Even if 22 get on the elevator first, the elevator may 23 stop and pick up somebody else along the way. 24 But I think it was me and I don't know. I 25 don't' remember. EFTA00114131

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 : When you did respond, 2 what did you see? 3 : Um. 4 : When you got to the cell? 5 : He was lying on the 6 floor. He appeared to be unresponsive. But 7 when we walked up to him, we would see his 8 chest rising. And he was kind of clammy. 9 : Did he have anything 10 around his neck? 11 : No. He didn't have 12 anything around his neck. 13 : Okay. 14 : And there were 15 different times when he would open one eye and 16 kind of you know like he was trying to see what 17 we were doing. And then he would close his 18 eyes. But he would never respond to us. He 19 just wanted to maintain that mode like he was 20 unconscious or something like that. I guess. 21 I don't' know what was going through his mind. 22 : Do you know if someone 23 removed something that was around his neck? 24 : I don't know if 25 someone. I don't' know. EFTA00114132

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 1 : Okay. Point being, like 2 if he's claiming someone tried to kill him, but 3 also at the same time is saying that he's 4 trying to commit suicide. He didn't' have 5 anything around his neck. Is there any reason 6 for you to believe that his cellmate was 7 actually trying to kill him? 8 : No. I mean I had no 9 proof that his cellmate tried to do anything to 10 him. And I'm trying to remember what the 11 officer said. I don't' even remember offhand 12 what the officers were telling me. I don't 13 know if they saw him with something around his 14 neck or what they observed. But I can't 15 remember. I would have to refer back to my 16 notes. Because that was a long time ago. 17 : Sure. So if counts are 18 not conducted. And I'm assuming -. Are counts 19 more important than rounds? Or are they both 20 just as equally as important? 21 : I mean they're born 22 important. They are both independently 23 important. 24 : Okay. So let's go first 25 with counts. If counts are not conducted, who EFTA00114133

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 is -. So if counts are signed off on. You're 2 given a count slip. If those counts actually 3 weren't conducted. So if let's say for 4 instance that during your shift, the 12:00 5 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. If they 6 were not conducted - those counts- who is 7 responsible for that? For them being signed 8 and certified? Who - so I'm assuming the 9 people? Noel and Thomas are the ones assigned 10 to that shift. And they are the ones who 11 certify that those counts were conducted and 12 then provided to you. Are they the only ones 13 that are responsible for providing false 14 information? 15 : Providing false 16 information? 17 : Correct. So if they're 18 saying they conducted counts but they didn't. 19 So they were providing you with something 20 saying either 72 or 73, but those counts were 21 not conducted. 22 : How would I know if 23 they weren't conducted? 24 : Right. That's what I'm 25 asking. So are they the only ones that are EFTA00114134

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 responsible for falsifying that? 2 : Who else would know 3 whether or not they did them or not? I mean -- 4 : That's what I'm asking. 5 no one else would 6 have any way of knowing. 7 : So it doesn't' go above 8 them. If they are the ones that are saying it, 9 there's no other people that can like verify 10 that it actually was conducted. 11 : How would they verify 12 it? 13 : That's my question to 14 you. 15 : And that's what I'm 16 saying to you. If they're the ones that are -. 17 There is no reason whatsoever for us to ever 18 believe that someone is not conducting their 19 counts or doing what they're supposed to be 20 doing. You know. We're not out there with 21 them. I mean we have no way of knowing what 22 As far as I know, no one has any way of knowing 23 what I'm doing when I'm here. 24 : Sure. 25 : You know so you have EFTA00114135

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 to have confidence in and you have to know your 2 staff. That's what it comes down to. You have 3 to walking and talking. It's not just about 4 the inmates. It's not just about you know what 5 we did with Epstein. It's about every inmate 6 that was being housed at MCC at the time. 7 Every inmate had the potential to hang 8 themselves or kill themselves or do whatever. 9 It wasn't just about Epstein. We're 10 responsible for every inmate in this 11 institution. 12 : Sure. 13 : And I have - if i 14 have absolutely no reason to believe that a 15 staff member in this building, or doubt, unless 16 they reveal something to me that would make me 17 doubt what they said is true. 18 : So -. 19 : Other than that, i 20 have no reason to believe that a staff member 21 isn't doing what they're supposed to be doing. 22 : So if you were told that 23 the 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. counts 24 were not conducted on August 10th, does that 25 surprise you? EFTA00114136

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yes, that would 2 surprise me. 3 : It does surprise you? 4 : Yes. 5 : Okay. Do you have any 6 reasons to believe that either Thomas or Noel 7 did not conduct counts in the past? 8 : No. 9 : No? 10 : I have no reason to 11 believe. I don't even believe that they didn't 12 do it that night to be honest with you. But 13 no, I have no reason to believe that they 14 didn't -=. 15 : Have you heard that they 16 made any statements to any other staff members 17 about not conducting rounds or counts? 18 : No. No. 19 : So you never heard those 20 either? 21 : No. 22 : Okay. And you don't know 23 of them ever not conducting counts or rounds 24 other than -? 25 : I don't know of them EFTA00114137

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 or any other staff members not conducting 2 counts or rounds or anything like that. 3 : Okay. And you didn't -? 4 On August 10th, did you speak to them at all 5 about hey did you guys really do these counts? 6 : No. 7 : Okay. 8 : No. 9 : What about with the 10 rounds? So would you be surprised to find out 11 that they didn't' do rounds on August 10th 12 during your shift? 13 : Yes. I would be 14 surprised to find out -- 15 : Okay. 16 : -- that they didn't' 17 do rounds. Yes. 18 : So if it were found out 19 that they didn't do any rounds. That to you is 20 shocking? You would be like wait what? 21 : Yes. I would be 22 surprised that they didn't do 23 : Okay. Do you have any 24 follow-ups on those specific questions? 25 Specifically with regards to falsification of EFTA00114138

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 1 rounds and counts? Who has to sign off on the 2 counts and rounds? 3 : What do you mean? 4 : So is it solely the COs 5 that are in the SHU? Or does someone else have 6 to verify on the counts that they were 7 conducted? 8 : I mean you can't 9 verify that they're conducted. You can verify 10 that the -. 11 : That they provided you 12 that information. 13 : Right. That they 14 turned in the count slip. 15 : Right. 16 : But you can't verify 17 anything else. 18 : So there's no procedure 19 in place for a lieutenant to make sure that COs 20 are actually performing the duties that they 21 say they're doing? 22 : Do you know how many 23 people who have -? Supervisors would have to 24 be in -? That would mean that a supervisor 25 would have to be on every unit during every EFTA00114139

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 count. 2 : Well I'm talking 3 specifically about the SHU. 4 : And watching the 5 count. 6 : I'm speaking specifically 7 to the SHU. So in the special housing unit, 8 there's no verification process. If the COs 9 are saying they did it, you just take their 10 word. There's no way to verify it? 11 : SHU is no different, 12 sir. Before this incident with Epstein, SHU 13 was no different than any other unit in this 14 building. It's not about whether or not solely 15 whether or not SHU is doing it. It's about 16 whether -- 17 : So you're saying -- 18 : -- everybody on every 19 unit -- 20 : -- prior to this incident 21 22 : -- is doing it. 23 : -- is there something 24 that has been implemented since then? To 25 ensure that counts and rounds are being EFTA00114140

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 conducted? 2 : No. 3 : So it's still the same. 4 It's all up to the COs. If they're certifying 5 that they did it, the lieutenants are taking 6 their word for it. 7 : That's correct. 8 : Okay. 9 : That's correct. As 10 far as I know. Yes. 11 : On August 10th during 12 your shift from August 9th 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 13 a.m. the following day. What was the chain of 14 command? Was it Noel or Thomas, or was there a 15 hierarchy? Was one in charge of the other? 16 Was one subordinate or were they both equal? 17 : What do you mean? 18 You mean inside the SHU? 19 : Correct. So does one 20 give the other orders or do they work tougher? 21 Is there a hierarchy in there? 22 : Well they should be 23 working together. 24 : Okay. But there's no 25 like person that's in charge of the other? EFTA00114141

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 : No. 2 : So if -? 3 : No. 4 : And how was it determined 5 with counts and rounds? Is there someone that 6 takes lead on it? Or is it? 7 : No. 8 : No? 9 : I mean we all have 10 the same responsibilities. 11 : Okay. Back over to you. 12 : Just for in terms of policy- 13 wise. If a count is wrong. Right, there's an 14 issue with the count. What does the policy 15 state? What should happen? 16 : What type of issue? 17 : Let's say the COs in the SHU 18 did a count. And the count comes to the 19 control center and it's wrong. They identify 20 the fact that it's wrong. What's the next 21 step? 22 : What do you mean? It's wrong 23 how? 24 : The count is off. The number 25 is wrong. Let's say it said 72 -. EFTA00114142

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 1 : You mean the count 2 slip? The count slip comes to control -? 3 : Yes. 4 : And the count slip is 5 wrong? 6 : Yes. 7 : Then if control is 8 aware of that, and especially if control is 9 taking the count. Then control will call them 10 back and tell them I need a new count slip 11 because this one is not right. And usually the 12 only time that that would happen is would be 13 like in the incidents where we may have moved a 14 staff member during that time. And we need to 15 go back and update that count slip that we were 16 originally getting. Or like in this case with 17 the inmate being in R&D. We needed to go back 18 and get another count slip that reflected the 19 new count which was 72. Once we put the inmate 20 in R&D. 21 : Okay. On that same topic, if 22 the count was wrong, and you told them that 23 they needed to go back and do another count. 24 : Not that the count 25 was wrong. That the count slip was wrong. The EFTA00114143

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 number that was reflected on the count slip was 2 wrong. 3 : Did you see them do the 4 count? 5 : No. 6 : So the number they reported 7 was wrong. The count should have been -. 8 : They said that they 9 had -. They said that they had their count was 10 73 but that they had there was an inmate that 11 was in R&D. So that was the problem. They 12 never did a count slip saying - they never said 13 my count is 73 and left it at that. They were 14 clear to say that the count is - SHU has 73 but 15 there is an inmate that is down on the third 16 floor in R&D. Or something to that effect. 17 They notified me that there was an inmate that 18 was off their housing unit. 19 : So you're saying the count 20 wasn't wrong. 21 : What was on the count 22 slip was wrong. 23 : The count slip was wrong 24 but she said that they explained it when they 25 delivered it. EFTA00114144

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 : But you just stated a little 2 bit before that the count wasn't wrong, the 3 count slip was wrong. 4 : The count slip was 5 wrong. 6 : Why did you ask them to go 7 back and do the count? 8 : Because I needed to 9 find out what was going on with this dude in 10 R&D so that, you know, if they in fact -. If 11 we made changes to whatever the status was to 12 this guy in R&D. If he was in fact going to be 13 there overnight or whatever the case may be, 14 then we needed to get him off of their count. 15 So while I was verifying that, I said, you know 16 what, just go back and do it again just to make 17 sure. While I'm looking into this thing with 18 this dude. I didn't say that to them. I'm 19 thinking to myself. I'll have them go back and 20 do another count while I check on this inmate 21 that was -. 22 : There's a possibility the 23 count was wrong then. 24 : What do you mean? 25 : You said go back and verify EFTA00114145

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 if the guy was still there or not there. 2 : I didn't say go back 3 and verify if the guy was still there. I said 4 while I verify what's going on with this guy in 5 R&D to see if he's still in R&D. That's what 6 I'm talking about. I wanted to verify if he 7 was still in R&D. And if he was, if he was 8 going to be staying there. Because I wasn't 9 aware that there was an inmate in R&D. So from 10 my own, and I wasn't verbalizing this. I was 11 saying this to myself. 12 : But the point being is 13 you got a count that was a 73 and you said do 14 it again. Correct? 15 : The count slip that 16 was 73 was broke down because they had put the 17 count slip out. 18 : Right. And you -- 19 : So - 20 : -- asked them to do the 21 count again though. Because you got a count 22 slip - and this is where I just want to make 23 sure that we're all on the same page here. So 24 you did though, take action. You got a count 25 slip that seemed to be inaccurate and EFTA00114146

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 questioned it. You said can you do the count 2 again. 3 : I hadn't even gotten 4 the count slip then. 5 : Oh, okay. 6 : Like I said, when 7 they called in the count, they said the count 8 like the count in the book or wherever they was 9 reading it from say 73 but there is an inmate 10 that's in R&D. 11 : So that's how they called 12 the count in? There's 73, but there's one 13 inmate in R&D. And you said, can you do the 14 count again? 15 : They wasn't even 16 really calling in the count. They was 17 questioning. You know, they were basically 18 informing me that we've got 73 -. Because they 19 weren't even sure what they should do or how 20 they should go about it. 21 : Okay. 22 : You know. They just 23 wanted it to be known that there was an inmate 24 off their housing unit that was somewhere else. 25 He wasn't physically on the housing unit. And EFTA00114147

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 that was the whole question as to how do they 2 want us to do - how are we supposed to count 3 this guy? What's the deal with that? So I'm 4 saying, you know, let me - I need to figure 5 this out. Because I wasn't - I didn't even 6 know that there was a guy in R&D at the time. 7 So I need to verify that there is a guy in R&D 8 and what's the status of this dude in R&D, why 9 he's there. All these questions I have to ask 10 before I can even tell them anything about it. 11 : So at what point would 12 have they filled out the count slip? After you 13 did the verification? Would have they then 14 created the count slip? 15 : They would have 16 created a new count slip. 17 : Okay. So -. 18 : And that count slip 19 apparently was never picked up because -- 20 : Never picked up or not 21 recorded. 22 : -- because the one 23 that you all was able to get a copy of was the 24 73 and not the one that reflected the in count 25 which would have been 72. EFTA00114148

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 : And do you know that 2 there was a count slip that was created? 3 : I have no reason to 4 believe that there wasn't. 5 : But do you have a reason 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to believe that there was? Did you ever see one? If I had saw it, it would have been during the time that I would have taken the count and I would have attached it to the rest of the count slips and went on about my business. So at the same time we're saying to you there's no reason to believe that there wasn't. there's also then no reason to believe that there was. : I - let me tell you - The point being is that you don't know. You don't know if there was a count slip. If -. Let me tell you something. Based upon the fact that I've worked with these guys for a certain period of time and I know what they're capable of doing. EFTA00114149

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 I can for the most part tell you what somebody 2 would do and what they wouldn't do. I have 3 never had a problem with a staff member not 4 correcting their count slip or not sending me 5 another - a corrected count slip. 6 : Now we're only asking you 7 because I have personally not seen it. So I'm 8 asking you if there's another one, do we need 9 to go try to find this. Or do you not know. 10 : You're not going to 11 find it. I mean it's two years later. 12 : Right. 13 : Where are you going 14 to find it at? If it wasn't picked up - I mean 15 the fact that they could have put it out there 16 and no one picked it up. 17 : Here's a question. If they 18 did do one, right, it's expected that they 19 should have for that one. Right. A new one. 20 Yes or no? Because of the error, it was 21 expected that they would have filled out a new 22 one with the correct number. 23 : I'm sure that they 24 filled that they filled out another one and 25 probably put it out in and it was an oversight EFTA00114150

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 on somebody's part and they didn't pick it up. 2 : Yeah but here's the thing. 3 You don't know if - yes or no. Did you see it 4 for that? Yes or no. 5 : No. I didn't' see 6 it. 7 : No-no. We're going that, 8 would it possibly have been picked up at the 9 3:00 a.m. count? 10 : I don't know when it 11 could have been picked up, sir. 12 : Is it in the same place? Or 13 is it a different place it's kept? 14 : Depending. I mean 15 they could have put it in the same place. They 16 could have put it in a different place. I 17 don't know. 18 : Okay. That's it. We just 19 want to know. 20 : I can't tell you something 21 that I didn't see. If I didn't see it, I can't 22 23 : And that's what -- 24 : -- tell you where 25 they put it or who picked it up or what EFTA00114151

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 happened to it. 2 : And that's what we're 3 getting at. The point being is that you're not 4 sure. So we just don't want to - because you 5 said you have no reason to believe that they 6 didn't. That indicates that they did. And we 7 just want to make sure that you're correct. 8 You've never seen it. You're actually not sure 9 if they did or not. 10 : Okay. 11 : Is that correct though? 12 : No. I never saw the 13 count slip. 14 : Okay. Perfect. I mean 15 it's not like a "gotcha," we just want to make 16 sure -- 17 : Yeah. 18 : -- that you dint - there 19 isn't a count slip out there that we need to 20 try to go find. 21 : Let me tell you 22 something. It's —. If-if-if. I can't - if _ 23 can make something right that's wrong or need 24 correcting, then that's what I'm here for. I'm 25 not here to like I said, and I'll say this a EFTA00114152

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 thousand times. I'm not here to cover for 2 nobody. I'm not here to provide false answers 3 for something that somebody had done, but at 4 the same time, you all are throwing these 5 questions at me about what somebody would have 6 done. I don't know what's in somebody's mind - 7 8 : Ma'am, we're absolutely 9 not asking -- 10 : -- with the stuff -- 11 : -- those questions. 12 We're asking you -- 13 : -- that's taken 14 place. 15 : We're saying did you see 16 it. So that's what we're trying to get you to 17 answer more like yes, no, hey I don't know on 18 that front. So we're trying to keep it 19 consolidated and ask you direct questions. 20 What did you know? Did you know if they did 21 another count slip? 22 : Well what I also know 23 is there's no reason for them to not have done 24 it. I've never had a reason or a circumstance 25 where somebody didn't do a corrected count EFTA00114153

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 slip. I mean it's - there's really nothing to 2 it. 3 : And this is only because 4 of the way you're answering this. Should have 5 you ensured that they did a new count slip? 6 : I had no reason to. 7 : But was it your 8 responsibility to ensure that they created a 9 new count slip? 10 : It was my 11 responsibility to tell them. Well they knew to 12 create it. If the count was different, they 13 knew to create a new count slip. I'm not 14 required to wait around for that count slip to 15 manifest itself in SHU when I have a thousand 16 other duties to do. 17 : Okay. 18 : I leave that you 19 know. 20 : So it's your requirement 21 to do a new count but it's not your requirement 22 to follow up to obtain a new count slip. 23 : Because what 24 generally happens is that the internal officers 25 would go pick that count slip up and bring it EFTA00114154

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 down to the control center. And they would 2 attach it to that count. 3 : And would have it then 4 been Noel or Thomas' responsibility to contact 5 internal to tell them to come get it? Or would 6 it have been your responsibility to tell 7 internal to? 8 : Sometimes I would 9 tell them. Sometimes SHU would tell them. It 10 just depends -- 11 : Okay. 12 : -- on the 13 circumstance. 14 : In this circumstance do 15 you know who would have been responsible for 16 that? 17 : I mean we all could 18 have done it. 19 : Okay. 20 : We all could have 21 done it. 22 : So when you say depending 23 on circumstance, in this -. 24 : Well that was just 25 something I said. But any of us could have EFTA00114155

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 done it. If control - if I see that control -. 2 : So let's get at it this 3 way. Did you contact internal? 4 : Let me tell you 5 something. If internal comes to the control 6 center, and I walk over there to drop off count 7 slips that they've already collected. And I 8 walk over there and I see them there. And I'll 9 say hey, can you go grab the new one from 9 10 South. That would be an example of a 11 circumstance. 12 : Okay. So in this 13 circumstance, did you contact internal and tell 14 them to get the new slip? 15 : I didn't contact -- 16 : Okay. 17 : -- internal to tell 18 them. 19 : And are you aware if 20 Thomas and Noel contacted internal to come 21 collect a new slip? 22 : They may have. And I 23 may have -. 24 : But you're not aware? 25 : And control may have EFTA00114156

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 announced it over the intercom. I can't 2 remember from -- 3 : Sure. 4 : -- this year to that 5 one. 6 : You're not aware. Great. 7 : You know if that 8 actually occurred. 9 : Now you mentioned that an 10 all-staff email should have been put out that 11 Epstein had a requirement. Who should have put 12 that out? 13 : The person - the 14 : Was that psychology? The 15 warden? The captain? The AW? 16 : I mean they all 17 should have been doing it. 18 : Okay. 19 : To be honest with 20 you, they all should have known that he should 21 have been up on 10 South. 22 : Okay. 23 : But. 24 : Has an all-staff email 25 ever gone out before saying that this person is EFTA00114157

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 on suicide watch. He's required to have an 2 email. I mean a cellmate. 3 : Here? 4 : Yes. 5 : I've never seen that. 6 I've never seen that done here. But we didn't 7 have -. I'm trying to remember a time when 8 prior to Epstein that I had even seen an email 9 period about an inmate needing an inmate in the 10 cell to be housed with another inmate. To be 11 honest with you. 12 : Okay. Now speaking to 13 that though, you know, we showed you the email 14 that was sent to you that you said you don't 15 recall ever receiving it. Do you have a lot of 16 emails that have gone unread? 17 : I'm sure I do. 18 : Okay. So yeah. You 19 didn't receive this but there's also a lot of 20 emails that you didn't receive -- 21 : There's a lot of 22 emails that I received -- 23 : -- and you probably 24 haven't -- 25 : -- and haven't had EFTA00114158

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 time to read at that time because of everything 2 that was going on during our shift and in this 3 building. 4 : And is that just a 5 constant issue of just trying to keep up with 6 emails as well as do your job? 7 : That was a constant 8 issue. Yes. Because there was so much going 9 on in this building at the time. So much 10 chaos. That you didn't have time to read. 11 : Okay. 12 : You didn't have time 13 to read a lot of the emails that you'd gotten. 14 But most importantly, if when you're talking 15 about information that's that important, you 16 know. Whoever is sending out the information. 17 Whoever got the information should always be 18 trying to make sure that everybody knows that 19 this is important. We have to make sure that 20 he has a cellie because like I said, the 21 officers are the main ones who come in contact. 22 : And that goes back to our 23 original question. 24 : With the inmates. 25 : If the chain of command EFTA00114159

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 went up to during that time and that he 2 knew that he was required to have a cellmate 3 and didn't, what should have he done? 4 : If what? 5 : If you were the ops 6 lieutenant at the time, so put yourself into 7 the place of . If you knew that Epstein 8 was required to have a cellmate, and his 9 current cellmate was removed, he should have - 10 and what you said was, I believe, he should 11 have notified the captain and ensured that a 12 cellmate was put in place. 13 : That's what I would 14 have done. 15 : Correct. 16 : I said was the 17 SHU lieutenant at one point. So he probably 18 would have assigned another inmate to the cell. 19 It just depends on you as a supervisor. 20 : Sure. 21 : There is nothing 22 written in stone concerning how you're going to 23 - indicating how you're going to handle that 24 situation because -. 25 : And if the inmate that EFTA00114160

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 was removed - Reyes - was done at the end of 2 his shift, should have he then passed that 3 information on to the next operations 4 lieutenant to be able to handle the situation? 5 : That's if he knew 6 about it. But chances are, he probably would 7 have handled it -- 8 : No, let's -- 9 : -- himself before he 10 left. 11 : Okay. 12 : I can't -. 13 : So you think that 14 : Look. I can't answer 15 for him. 16 : Sure. 17 : I don't know what he 18 should have done or what he would have done or 19 what -- 20 : If it was -. 21 : -- he could have 22 done. 23 : -- as an ops lieutenant. 24 Do you think even if it happened at the end of 25 a shift, he should have handled it? EFTA00114161

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 : I'm not saying what 2 he should have done. 3 : Okay. 4 : I'm saying Look. 5 What he should have done and what he could have 6 done and what he would have done is on him. 7 : Sure. 8 : We don't have - there 9 is no instruction or no instructional manual 10 that tells us every little thing that we're 11 supposed to be doing -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- for every scenario 14 because it'll never happen. 15 : Okay. 16 : You'll never have an 17 exact scenario for everything that happens. 18 You just have to use your common sense and good 19 judgment regarding it. 20 : So going back to what you 21 said about your hours aren't specific to what 22 the duty agent roster says. You said you would 23 work -. Although the roster says 12:00 a.m. to 24 8:00 a.m., you were actually 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 25 a.m. What would have have been on August EFTA00114162

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 9th. Looking at the duty roster. What times 2 would he have actually - have worked according 3 to that? 4 : I'm thinking he would 5 have worked he would have came in around 6 6:00 and worked until 2:00. 7 : Okay. So he would have 8 been 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.? 9 : Yes. 10 : And then would 11 have been 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.? 12 : That's correct. 13 : Okay. If he didn't -. 14 If didn't tell that, would have 15 it then been the ultimate responsibility for 16 the COs to again report it up the chain of 17 command? Or because they reported it 18 previously, would that have covered them with 19 hey we got it up to the ops lieutenant. That 20 person's supposed to take care of it. Do you 21 follow what I'm saying? So for people working 22 in the SHU. They had already reported it up. 23 It got to . At that point, is everybody 24 in the SHU covered? They reported it. Or 25 should each subsequent shift have also EFTA00114163

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 reported, hey he's supposed to have an inmate - 2 he's supposed to have a cellmate in here. He 3 doesn't. 4 : That's if they knew. 5 There is no reason for me to believe that those 6 guys that was there on SHU that if they knew 7 that, whether or not before they left, I'm sure 8 they would have questioned that again as to 9 what you want me to do about this particular 10 situation. 11 : Okay. So should have 12 each So then let's say if Thomas and Noel 13 did know. And they knew he was without a 14 cellmate. Should have they then told you? 15 When you did your rounds? Like when they're 16 calling control. And you're stopping by at 17 4:00 a.m. Would have it been their 18 responsibility to say hey, just so you know, 19 he's required to have a cellmate and he 20 doesn't. 21 : I'm not going to say 22 that that's what they should have done because 23 there's no rules and regulations regarding 24 that. But they - I would have - if it was me, 25 I would have mentioned it. EFTA00114164

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 : Okay. So even if they 2 know, somebody told them just make sure, he's 3 required to have a cellmate in SHU at that 4 point, they're not actually required to notify 5 someone. 6 : If what? If somebody 7 tells -? 8 : So you're saying that 9 there's no rules and - 10 : If who tells them 11 that? 12 : So if they are told. And 13 I'm not saying you did. 14 : You're saying -. Okay 15 so now you're saying if they knew that he was 16 supposed to have a cellie. 17 : Correct. 18 : Yeah. If they knew 19 the was supposed to have a cellie. 20 : If they knew -. Yeah. 21 So if they then because it was during their 22 shift. They should have at some point informed 23 you hey he's supposed to have a cellmate and he 24 doesn't. And they didn't do that. Correct? 25 : That's correct. EFTA00114165

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 : Okay. Fair enough. 2 That's it. You done? 3 : (Indiscernible *02:48:29) 4 : What? 5 : Do you know of any - 6 currently, do you know of any policy violations 7 that's happening at the MCC? 8 : As far as what? 9 : For August 9th and 10th 10 or are you talking about -- 11 : No-no-no. Just in general. 12 : -- just in general? 13 : In general. In general, do 14 you know of any policy violations or any kind 15 of violations happening here at the MCC? 16 : What I do know is 17 that there are people here who abuse their 18 power. They blame everybody for everything and 19 they expect everybody to members of 20 correctional services and to take on the 21 responsibilities of other departments when it's 22 clearly not their responsibility. You have a 23 lot of people that come here that really are 24 not versed on what it is they're supposed to be 25 doing - their responsibilities. So they pawn EFTA00114166