LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 MR. : All right. Can you give 2 me the 4 p.m. count again, now that you're 3 saying that it's sparking my memory that people 4 are saying that other documents weren't signed, 5 as they should have been, the 4 p.m. count? 6 Were there places that you, as the Ops 7 Lieutenant, you were supposed to sign that you 8 didn't here? 9 : This was, this should be 10 signed off by the day watch Operations 11 Lieutenant. 12 MR. : So that's day watch? 13 That wouldn't have been you? 14 : Yeah. Yeah. Cause here I 15 am, I signed that one, right there. 16 MR. : So, you said this one on 17 page, the third page should have been 18 that signed that one? 19 : It could have been 20 MR. : Count time, 4 p.m. 21 or myself. 22 MR. : But then you say you 23 started at 2? 24 : Yeah. No, I'm saying, it 25 could have been me. EFTA00114675

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 MR. : And you did the count? 2 : It could have been 3 either/or. 4 MR. : Who did the count? 5 -: took the count. 6 MR. : Okay. And you didn't 7 participate in the 4 p.m.? 8 : No. 9 MR. : Did you participate in 10 the count that day? 11 : I'm not sure. I don't 12 remember. I don't remember. 13 MR. : But so at 4 p.m., you 14 were from 2 to 10. was only until 2. 15 And this is the 4, so shouldn't you have signed 16 that? 17 : I could, I could have been 18 the one that should have signed it, cause I 19 signed this one right here. I signed that, I 20 know I signed that out count. 21 MR. : So what is this one that 22 doesn't have a signature? What is that for? 23 : This one right here? That's 24 the total out count and there was one cadre 25 from 11 South out. EFTA00114676

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. So that one 2 doesn't have a signature, but the fourth page 3 does and that's your signature, you said? 4 : That's me. 5 MR. : Anything else on here 6 that needed to have signatures by you guys? 7 : Yeah. I don't know who, I 8 don't know who signed that one right there. 9 MR. : That's , saying 10 that she signed -- 11 : No, that's from, it's from 12 13 MR. : Oh, cause she was still 14 in attorney conference for the 4 p.m. 15 : Yeah. This is, I don't know 16 whose signature that is. 17 MR. : But that's not yours? 18 : That's not mine. 19 MR. : So, at 4 p.m., the 20 attorney conference approved by, you can't 21 actually even make that out. 22 : I can't. I don't know who 23 that is. 24 MR. : If that's supposed to be 25 the Operations Lieutenant, this is not you, by EFTA00114677

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 looking at this daily roster, can you deduce 2 who it could have been? ? It's not 3 , because -- 4 : It's going to be or 5 , one of the two. 6 MR. : You can have 4 p.m., if 7 is gone at 2? 8 : Oh, no, no, cause he's gone 9 at 2. Both of them were gone at 2. But that's 10 not me. That's definitely not me. You see, I 11 do the M, the M circle everywhere. 12 MR. : So, is the one 13 that would have provided this to somebody to 14 sign? 15 : Yeah. She would have given 16 the out count to the Operations Lieutenant. 17 MR. : All right. So we have to 18 ask who signed this? 19 : Yeah. Cause I don't know 20 who that is. I don't know whose signature that 21 is. 22 MR. : And none of these people 23 on here that are working that day look like 24 anybody that that could, that would have the 25 authority to do that? EFTA00114678

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 : No. There are only two 2 people, these are the only, was the 3 captain, the lieutenants, and , and 4 myself are the only people. I mean 5 MR. : It's not . It's 6 not you. 7 : An acting, an acting 8 lieutenant could sign, if they're in that 9 capacity, but she was still attorney conference 10 when this was done. 11 MR. : All right. 12 : So, I don't know whose 13 signature that is. 14 MR. : And then this -- 15 : And that's mine. 16 MR. : And that one is yours, so 17 for the official out count. Is this weird to 18 you at all, this, the fact that somebody else's 19 signature is on that? 20 : Yeah. I don't know who the 21 fuck, cause I know I didn't sign it. And I 22 know, this was probably just a slip of the, I 23 forgot to sign it, the other one. 24 MR. : Uh-huh. 25 : Because I signed everything EFTA00114679

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 else. MR. : So the one, so one is that you were supposed to have signed was signed by someone else, and another one looks like you forgot. : I forgot. MR. : So, it would have been J. Smalls? : No. Smalls was the one that was in R&D. This is the R&D, coming from R&D out count. MR. : So who would have provided this to you, to sign it? : R&D. MR. : All right. So, Small would have given that to you to sign? : Yeah. MR. : But in this case, it sounds like she didn't? : No. I don't know. I don't remember if she didn't (Indiscernible *02:31:02) give it to me right off the bat, or if I just forgot to sign it. It could be, I forgot to sign it. MR. : Okay. EFTA00114680

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 207 1 : But I don't know who that is 2 on that other one. I don't even, it looks 3 like, it just looks like a squiggly line. 4 MR. : So, on the 4 p.m. count, 5 after the E-1, so there's, on the third page, 6 you forgot to sign. On the fifth page, fourth 7 page, you did sign. Seventh page, shows the 8 official count from R. . That is not 9 your signature. All right. And then the last 10 one is you as well. 11 : I signed. Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Which is the official out 13 count from the hospital. So, the attorney 14 conference room, you got to figure out whose 15 signature that is. And no one would have been 16 authorized, as you know -- 17 : A lieutenant is supposed to 18 sign the out count. 19 MR. : But it could have been a 20 lieutenant? But there are, as far as you know, 21 there is no other lieutenants that were 22 actually even in the building at that time? 23 : Unless this was done before, 24 an out count has to be in 45 minutes prior to 25 the count. So that means it would have had to EFTA00114681

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 be done no later than 3:15. Unless that was 2 done before went home, I don't know. 3 MR. : But it doesn't even look 4 like it would be a 5 : It doesn't. 6 MR. : Carlos? Oh, that could 7 be Carlos 8 : I don't know, it just, it 9 looks like a squiggly line. But that's 10 definitely not my signature. You have been 11 watching me sign papers all this interview. I 12 do the MC circle -- 13 MR. : Yeah, no, I know it's not 14 yours. That's what I'm just trying to figure 15 out who it is. 16 : Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. 17 MR. : No, there's no question. 18 It's not yours Do you remember that day, 19 though, you're positive you came in at 2? 20 : I don't even know why it 21 says non-custody here. 22 MR. : Somebody indicated that 23 someone manipulated that, and that it shouldn't 24 say non-custody. 25 : I was custody at the time. EFTA00114682

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 MR. : So, somebody, somebody 2 has told us, doesn't make any sense that 3 there's an NC there. Do you agree with that? 4 : I agree 100% there. It 5 would have said, it would have said nothing. 6 It would have said nothing, because custody 7 don't have that, NC stands for non-custody on 8 the roster. 9 MR. : The fact that this was 10 printed out on June 2, 2021, would that auto 11 : That's because I was a 12 counselor already. 13 MR. : -- would that populate to 14 non-custody automatically? 15 : Yes. Because I'm non- 16 custody now. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 : I'm a counselor. 19 MR. : So, when we printed out, 20 that date, these things would be automatically 21 generated with your name, NC. 22 : Uh-huh. Yes. 23 MR. : So would that be why then 24 (Indiscernible *02:33:27). 25 : That's probably why. I EFTA00114683

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 didn't see that this was printed this year. 2 MR. : Okay. All right. So, it 3 would be printed, based upon what you are at 4 the time, but you were custody at the time? 5 : I was a lieutenant at the 6 time. Yeah. 7 MR. : All right. So, okay. So 8 we can't put any real credence to NCs when we 9 see the, based upon the print (Indiscernible 10 *02:33:48). 11 : No, after, like, I became a 12 counselor, February 2020. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 : So I have only been non- 15 custody since then. 16 MR. : All right. And then this 17 one was just an email, saying that I was, this 18 is just confirming that, it's just an email 19 that you sent to someone, Cynthia Adorno? 20 : Adorno. 21 MR. : A-D-O-R-N-O, just saying 22 that you were Activities, and had to go to the 23 hospital to make sure staff weren't bothered by 24 media, while his body was there. "Today, I am 25 DW Ops." EFTA00114684

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2_ 1 : Day watch. 2 MR. : Day watch Ops. Okay. 3 That was just in case you had any kind of need 4 for recollection that you actually worked those 5 days. Here you go. So, here is something, 6 just saying that, so, in his first suicide 7 attempt, correct, do you remember who his 8 cellmate was at the time? 9 : He was that cop guy. I 10 forgot his name. 11 MR. : Tartaglione. 12 : Tartaglione. 13 MR. : T-A-R-T-A-G-L-I-O-N-E. 14 : Yeah. 15 MR. : So, there's an email 16 dated August 7, 2019, to all the lieutenants, 17 saying that Tartaglione was going to be in 18 attorney conference on Friday, August 2, 2009. 19 Now, (Indiscernible *02:35:03) Epstein was in 20 there at the same time. Do you know if they 21 would have had any interaction in there? 22 Together? 23 : No. They were in separate 24 rooms. 25 MR. : So they would not have EFTA00114685

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 gone together? 2 : Unless, like, when they were 3 going in, or coming out. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 : If they were coming in or 6 out at the same time, but otherwise, they're in 7 two separate rooms. 8 MR. : So they're not even 9 seeing each other or interacting? 10 : No. They will be in, and as 11 a matter of fact, they're SHU inmates, so the 12 SHU inmates, the SHU cell, the SHU cells, the 13 attorney conference cells for the SHU inmates 14 are the same as the SHU cells. They're locked 15 in with their attorney. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 : So, they couldn't even, 18 like, come out and pass each other. 19 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 20 initialing and dating that? 21 : Sure. 22 MR. : Did you have any 23 involvement with that initial July 23, 2019? 24 : No. 25 MR. : Have you heard any rumors EFTA00114686

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 about Tartaglione attempting to harm Epstein? 2 : No. I heard that he was 3 helping him. He is the one that notified the 4 staff that he needed help. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 : That's what I heard. 7 MR. : So, you didn't hear 8 anything about him trying to harm Epstein? 9 : On the street. 10 MR. : And what -- 11 : People talking shit. 12 MR. : Do you think -- 13 : And I'm not even talking 14 about Bureau staff. I'm talking about, you 15 know how much shit, pardon my language -- 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 : I know we're on camera 18 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 19 on tape here, do you know 20 how much trash I got from people that have 21 known me my whole life, and I tell them 22 straight out, I can't answer your questions. 23 I'm not going to answer your questions. 24 MR. : Right. 25 : Don't talk stupid trash to EFTA00114687

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 me. I was, like, don't, don't even go there. 2 MR. : Do you think there's any 3 validity to any kind of a claim, saying that 4 Tartaglione attempted to harm Epstein? 5 : I don't know. I'm not in 6 the cell with them. 7 MR. : Okay. But from any 8 information that you have received, do you have 9 any reason to believe? 10 : No. I know, from what 11 know of Tartaglione, he's trying to beat his 12 case. He's trying to fight his case. So 13 don't think he would want to add any undue 14 thing to his case. 15 MR. : Okay. Okay, so I'm just 16 going to, so this was after the fact, on 17 Friday, August 16, 2019, the captain, 18 , sent a message to a number 19 of people, it looks like all the lieutenants, 20 to include yourself. It just says, 21 "Lieutenants, there has been a significant 22 change concerning the placement of inmates on 23 suicide watch at MCC. Starting 8/16/19, when 24 an inmate expresses intentions to physically 25 harm themself or behavior warrants placement on EFTA00114688

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 watch, please make sure the captain is notified 2 immediately by phone. If inmate companions are 3 needed to sit on the inmate, the overall 4 approving authority is the warden. Inmates 5 will no longer be able to remain on SHU bed 6 space, so there should be an initiative to have 7 adequate bed assignments available in the 8 Special Housing Unit." So, were people that 9 were attempting to harm themselves previously 10 not being referred to suicide watch, are you 11 aware? 12 : No. As a matter of fact, if 13 I, I, at one point in time, if I felt like a 14 new intake, if I was, let's say, Operations 15 Lieutenant on an off-shift, and we didn't have 16 Psychology here, if I felt they were a threat 17 to themselves, I would put them on watch, and 18 then all I would have to do is notify 19 Psychology. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 : Like, I would wake up the 22 on-duty psychologist at home and say, hey, doc, 23 I'm putting inmate Schmukatelli on observation. 24 MR. : All right. So, the only 25 change here was that the captain wanted to be EFTA00114689

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 notified? 2 : Yes. I believe so. 3 MR. : All right. And he wasn't 4 notified prior to that time, is that what he's 5 saying? 6 : He wasn't, he didn't have to 7 be. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : As long as we notified 10 Psychology. 11 MR. : Sure. So, people were, 12 it's not a change in practice. It's a change 13 in notification to the captain? 14 : Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 : A lot of those things change 17 like I change socks. 18 MR. : Yeah. If you don't mind, 19 just initial and date these daily assignments, 20 then. 21 : Sure. 22 MR. : For the 9th and 10th. I 23 know we have been keeping you awhile. Just 24 want to finish up these questions. 25 : (Indiscernible *02:38:42). EFTA00114690

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2_ - 1 MR. : So what is your 2 understanding of what happened to Epstein on 3 August 9th and 10th, 2019? 4 : My understanding is that he 5 committed suicide. That he hung up. 6 MR. : Is that, you understand 7 of how he died was from suicide and hanging? 8 : That's what I understand. 9 Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 11 information with regard to any suspicious 12 activity that occurred on August 9'h or 10'h, 13 2019, leading up to the discovery of Epstein in 14 his cell? 15 : No. 16 MR. : I'm just going to go over 17 just some broad, general issues and just ask 18 you if you have any information on it. So, we 19 just talked about his first suicide attempt on 20 July 23, 2019. Are you aware if Epstein was 21 placed on suicide watch after that? 22 : I'm not sure. I'm not 100% 23 sure. I think he was placed on observation 24 after that incident. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114691

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 : If I'm not mistaken. 2 MR. : And is observation, 3 suicide watch, are they basically the same 4 thing, just a matter of, if you give your 5 clothes or not? 6 : It's a matter of the 7 clothing. Observation, they were allowed to 8 have their regular attire on, with an inmate 9 companion. Suicide watch, they were in the 10 smock and had the, like, the sleeping bag, the 11 suicide sleeping bag. 12 MR. : And that is outside of 13 the SHU, correct? 14 : That is outside of the SHU. 15 MR. : What floor is that? 16 : In the event, in the event 17 that suicide watch on second floor was 18 overbooked, overfilled, we would do suicide 19 watch in SHU, but it would be a staff member 20 watching. 21 MR. : Okay. And is it your 22 understanding, though, that Epstein was removed 23 from the SHU and placed on either suicide watch 24 or psychological observation after the initial 25 incident on July 23"I? EFTA00114692

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 : I've seen him down on 2 suicide watch and observation on the second 3 floor. 4 MR. : So, you actually did see 5 him there? 6 : Yes. That's where I fed 7 him. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : Cause lieutenants have to 10 feed the inmates. 11 MR. : Oh, so that notation of 12 feeding on this was actually not regarding the 13 14 : It was probably, it might 15 have, it may have been in the SHU, if he was a 16 lieutenant hold at the time. But when he was 17 on observation, I have fed him down there. 18 MR. : Okay. So you had 19 interaction with him when he was actually on 20 : Yeah, basically just, as far 21 as opening the slot, handing him his food 22 trays, collecting his trash, locking the slot, 23 you okay? You okay? Okay. And, can I talk to 24 the Psychology Department? Go get the psyche. 25 That's it. EFTA00114693

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 220 1 MR. : Anything that he said to 2 you that was cause for concern? 3 : No. 4 MR. : No? Anything more than 5 can you get me this or get me that? 6 : No. That was it. 7 MR. : Okay. Do you believe 8 that Epstein was prematurely removed from 9 psychological observation or suicide watch? 10 : No. I mean, the Ph.D. 11 psychologist felt that it was appropriate. 12 They're the doctors. 13 MR. : Have you heard any rumors 14 about anyone else having any say in him being 15 removed? 16 : No. 17 MR. : Have you heard any rumor 18 about the judge calling the warden and asking 19 him to have him removed so he could continue 20 with his attorney visits? 21 : I have never heard the 22 rumor. 23 MR. : No? By anyone, streets 24 or inside or otherwise? 25 : No. EFTA00114694

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 MR. : Okay. We already talked 2 about Reyes being removed. Although you 3 received that email the day before, that wasn't 4 something that you reviewed, so you didn't know 5 that Reyes was actually being removed from the 6 institution or transferred, correct? 7 : No. No. Yes. Yes. 8 Correct. 9 MR. : And no one told you? 10 : No. 11 MR. : Aside from that email? 12 : Aside from the email. 13 MR. : Okay. And that, again, 14 is that, oh, you already answered it. Do you 15 know anything about other falsified counts 16 being conducted in the MCC prior to August 10, 17 2019? 18 : No. 19 MR. : Do you believe that 20 counts were being conducted in the MCC, prior 21 to August 9th and 10th, 2019? 22 : I would hope so. 23 MR. : Anything about the SHU, 24 though, I mean, if they're sleeping in the SHU, 25 we have heard rumors that maybe in the SHU, EFTA00114695

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 they were sleeping a lot. Had you heard 2 anything about that, them sleeping during their 3 shifts in the SHU? 4 : What, the staff? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 : Well, all I could say is 7 this. The staff were walking around like 8 zombies. 9 MR. : Right. 10 : These guys and girls were 11 getting stuck four days a week, sometimes five 12 days a week, doing 16 hour shifts. I have 13 never in my career have seen so many write-ups 14 for officers refusing mandates. I have had to 15 write-up countless officers because they 16 refused a mandate, when I told them they had to 17 stay. And then, but at the same time, I 18 didn't, I felt bad for them. 19 MR. : Uh-huh. 20 : I really did. Because they 21 were zombies. I was a zombie. And I was only 22 getting hit, like, twice a week. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 : And I was a zombie. I'm 25 also pushing 47 now. I'm not a young kid EFTA00114696

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 anymore, and some of these kids, 20 something years old, they would literally, they would be standing up and exhausted. MR. : So people are just too exhausted to do their job, is it? How, I mean, I spent time in the Marine Corps and I remember going 36, 40 hours on three hours of sleep and that was rough at 18, 19 years old. MR. : Right. : You know? Doing 16 hours, it's not human. MR. : Uh-huh. : Our bodies are not made for that. MR. : Okay. So, being that they were exhausted and people were sleeping during their shifts, especially with the focusing (Indiscernible *02:43:49) in on the SHU. Do you believe that it's likely that counts weren't being conducted prior to August 9, 2019? : I hope to God not. MR. : Okay. : I really do. I can't EFTA00114697

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 224 1 confirm nor deny it. I just hope to God not. 2 MR. : What about rounds? Do 3 you know if they were being conducted in the 4 SHU prior to that? 5 : I would hope, once again, I 6 would hope so. 7 MR. : But you're unaware for 8 both? 9 : I'm unaware. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : I can't confirm. 12 MR. : All right. What do you 13 know about the MCC, and particularly the SHU 14 cameras not working on August 9th and 10th, 2019? 15 : I found that out when 16 everybody else did. I honestly didn't know 17 they weren't working. 18 MR. : So, during your, 19 especially on August 9th, when you were working, 20 did anyone ever notify you that the cameras 21 were not recording? 22 : No. 23 MR. : Is there any way for you 24 to have known? 25 : No. I don't know. The only EFTA00114698

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 thing, like in the lieutenant's office and in 2 control, we can see the cameras, but we don't 3 know if they're actually recording or not. 4 MR. : So, there's nothing to 5 indicate if they're recording? 6 : Like, that's kept somewhere 7 else, like in the Computer Services people. 8 MR. : Do you know at the time 9 where that was kept? 10 : I think, if I'm not 11 mistaken, there's one on 3, by the com room, 12 and I'm not sure if there is one down here on 13 1. 14 MR. : Do you know if, at the 15 time, do you know if the cameras where the 16 recording would have been kept in the SIS 17 office? 18 : Well, there's, where the 19 cameras, like, the hard drives are in the back 20 of where the com room is. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 : Which is part of the whole 23 SIS shop back there. 24 MR. : So, if someone wanted to 25 knock the cameras offline and intentionally EFTA00114699

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 1 stop them from recording, like, where could 2 have they done that from? 3 : I'm not 100% certain. I 4 don't know if it could be done from back there 5 or not. I just know that that's where the room 6 is. 7 MR. : And do you know anything 8 about anyone knocking the cameras offline? 9 : No. I do not. 10 MR. : Have you heard any rumors 11 about that? 12 : No. 13 MR. : Do you have any kind of, 14 even theory or explanation of why the cameras 15 were not recording specifically in the SHU? 16 : No. 17 MR. : No? And you hadn't heard 18 anything about that? 19 : Not until I heard it from, 20 you know, what everybody else going on around, 21 like, yo, the cameras didn't work. The cameras 22 didn't pick anything up. And the newspapers. 23 MR. : Is that surprising to 24 you, for you to hear? 25 : No. Cause everything here EFTA00114700

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2z - 1 is gone. This building is decrepit. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 : I'm sorry. I can't put it 4 lightly. 5 MR. : Oh, no. That's why we're 6 here, is to figure out -- 7 : I've been here, listen, I've 8 been here 20 out of my 21 years on the job. 9 I'm rounding it off. I mean, I don't have 10 exactly 21 years. I've seen this place on a 11 steady decline. 12 MR. : I know. What about the 13 cameras? Weren't they all fixed? 14 : They were just recently 15 fixed. Now, the cameras are phenomenal. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 : Like, when I was a 18 lieutenant, I wished the cameras were as good 19 as they are now. You could actually see faces 20 of inmates fighting. 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 : And identify them. But 23 before that, you couldn't. 24 MR. : Who is responsible for 25 the cameras? EFTA00114701

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 : The com room. I'm sorry. 2 Not the com room. The com shop, the com techs. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : And do you know who that would have been at the time? : Who was here? I think . I think . I'm not sure of who else. MR. MR. would have remember so. MR. : So, • • : Do you know if been here at the time? : I don't remember. I don't when he started. : Okay. : He's the head of Facilities, MR. : And who is, what's his name? what? MR. • • • MR. : Who is : Right now, he is the lock shop. The Chief of the lock shop. Lock and Security -- MR. : Do you know where he would have been at the time? EFTA00114702

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 : I don't remember. I think 2 he was, was he plumbing at the time or was he 3 in the lock shop? I'm not sure. 4 MR. : Do you know if he had 5 anything to do with cameras? 6 : I'm not, I'm not 100% 7 certain. 8 MR. : So, is in charge 9 of the cameras. Who would have he reported to, 10 do you know? 11 -• 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 : Well, I think, I guess his 14 boss would be and the assistant. 15 MR. : The assistant, who? 16 : Facilities Manager. 17 MR. : All right. So, there's a 18 Facilities Manager and an Assistant Facilities 19 Manager? 20 : They are, and they're not. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 : When we're fully staffed, 23 there is usually a boss and an assistant. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 : I don't recall who it was at EFTA00114703

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 the time. 2 MR. : Do you know if Epstein 3 was in his assigned cell on August 10, 2019, 4 when he was found? 5 : I'm not 100% sure. I know 6 he was in that corner cell, that's all I know. 7 MR. : Who would be responsible, 8 if he, in the BOP database, the system, he is 9 assigned to a different cell than he is 10 actually physically located? Who would be 11 responsible for making that change within the 12 BOP? 13 : Oh, within Sentry? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 : As soon as the, basically, 16 the SHU Lieutenant would have to stay up on top 17 of that. 18 MR. : So, it's the SHU 19 Lieutenant's responsibility for that? 20 : To make sure that everything 21 is where it's supposed to be in his unit. 22 MR. : Does Ops or lieutenants 23 or anybody that visits the SHU and do rounds, 24 are they responsible at all for -- 25 : No. You're not going to EFTA00114704

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 pick up a PP30 -- 2 MR. : Sure. 3 : -- when you're making 4 rounds. Like I said, your predominant, the 5 predominant function of doing the rounds is to 6 make sure the officers are doing their job. 7 MR. : Do you have, do you know 8 if Epstein was always in that cell that you 9 described? 10 : No. Like I said, at one 11 point in time, I think he was down on H tier. 12 I do know 13 MR. : Let's say, after he 14 returned from suicide watch or psychological 15 observation, do you know if he was always 16 : I don't remember. 17 MR. : You don't remember? 18 : I don't remember. 19 MR. : Do you know if, at least 20 for the days leading up to August 9t", was he in 21 that same cell? 22 : I mean, at least a couple of 23 days, I believe, yes. I'm not 100% certain, 24 though. 25 MR. : Okay. And you mentioned, EFTA00114705

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 this will be the last of the big topics, you 2 mentioned that you knew that was 3 allowing Epstein to place a telephone call on 4 August 9, 2019? 5 : Yeah. When I came around to 6 escort him, he said, I got it. I'm going to 7 bring him up to SHU, and I'm going to give him 8 a legal call. I said, okay. 9 MR. : And do you know why he 10 was being afforded a legal call? 11 : No, I do not. 12 MR. : Especially the fact that 13 he is already in with his attorneys? 14 : And his attorney had left 15 already. I do not know. 16 MR. : Do you know if it was 17 actually a legal call that he placed? 18 : I don't know. I don't know. 19 MR. : Do you know anything 20 about it at all? 21 : Other than he brought him on 22 the elevator and that was the last I saw of 23 Epstein. 24 MR. : And did you talk to 25 about that at all after the fact? EFTA00114706

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 233 1 : No. No. 2 MR. : Did you see after 3 he returned him? 4 : No. I think he went home. 5 I think he left the building. 6 MR. 7 : Yeah. 8 MR. : All right. Did you find 9 it unusual that he was being allowed to place a 10 11 : No. I mean, we have done it 12 for other inmates before, too. Like, if, let's 13 say, you know, oh, I forgot to ask my lawyer, 14 it's all about, what's the word I'm looking 15 for? Convenience. If it's not inconveniencing 16 the person or the time, or if it's going to be 17 an issue or a security issue, or something like 18 that, and you feel like doing it, you can do 19 it. There's nothing to say -- 20 MR. : What if Epstein told them 21 that he is actually not calling his lawyer, but 22 he's calling his -- 23 MR. : Mother. 24 MR. : -- mother? 25 : I don't know. EFTA00114707

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 234 1 MR. : Is that at all, do you 2 believe that to be an acceptable practice, to 3 4 : I wouldn't, I wouldn't do 5 it. If you're telling me you need a legal 6 call, you're going to call your attorney. 7 MR. : Right. 8 : I'm not going to put you on 9 with the attorney and then sit there and hear 10 you say, oh, hi, Mom. No. Cause if you tell 11 me a legal call, I'm giving you a legal call. 12 MR. : Do you know, would have 13 needed approval to allow him to place a 14 call like that? 15 : Well, you, is a unit 16 team member, and unit team would normally do 17 the legal calls for the inmates. 18 MR. : Okay. So, would have, if 19 it was a legal call they provided him, but not 20 to his legal team, to his mother, would have he 21 needed to obtain approval for that? 22 : I don't know. I'm assuming 23 yes. I don't know. I never heard of any, I 24 never heard that it was to his mom. I always, 25 he told me, I'm giving him a call. EFTA00114708

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 MR. : Okay. So that's all you 2 know about it? 3 : That's all I know about it, 4 and he got on the elevator and brought him up 5 to SHU. 6 MR. : Okay. What do you know 7 about someone else taking Epstein's life? 8 : Nothing. Except for the, 9 pardon my language, the BS rumors that you hear 10 out in the media, on social media, and in the 11 public. 12 MR. : Okay. What do you know 13 about others assisting with taking Epstein's 14 life? 15 : I don't believe that. 16 MR. : What do you, when you say 17 you don't believe it, do you know of any rumors 18 or -- 19 : No, I don't know of 20 anything, and I don't believe it. I don't, 21 there is nothing I know about it. And I have 22 seen, not just at MCC New York, you hear about 23 it throughout the Bureau. Somebody could hang 24 themselves, just leaning forward on a bed. And 25 it only takes a couple of minutes. EFTA00114709

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 1 MR. : So, did Epstein take his 2 own life? 3 : I believe so, yes. 4 MR. : Did Epstein act alone in 5 taking his own life? 6 : I believe so. 7 MR. : Did you have any 8 involvement with Epstein -- 9 : Absolutely not. 10 MR. : What would have prevented 11 Epstein's death, in (Indiscernible *02:52:11)? 12 : In all actuality, if he 13 really wanted to commit suicide, nothing would 14 have prevented it, because anybody that really 15 wants to kill themselves can kill themselves. 16 Epstein's cell overlooked the OIC's desk. He 17 was watching the staff. He knew when he could 18 and when he couldn't. 19 MR. : Okay. So do you think 20 that if they were actually conducting their 21 counts and rounds as they should have, would 22 have that helped in preventing the death? 23 : It could have helped, but it 24 wouldn't have totally prevented it, because it 25 just takes minutes to kill yourself. If I EFTA00114710

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 wanted to do it, I would wait for you to make 2 your round. I now know, I have 30 minutes to 3 kill myself. It only takes two or three. 4 MR. : What about the fact that 5 he was mandated to have a cellmate, and the 6 cellmate was removed and no one backfilled it? 7 Do you think that would have helped? 8 : Yes or no. Remember what I 9 told you, in 2003. That dude committed suicide 10 and he had a bunkie. 11 MR. : And then in the same 12 token, though, you said Tartaglione was the one 13 that notified them when he attempted the first 14 time. 15 : Yeah. So, like, yes and no. 16 That's why I said yes and no. Like, if that 17 inmate is asleep, and let's say that inmate is 18 a heavy sleeper, Epstein could have strung up 19 while he was asleep. 20 MR. : Okay. And then this is 21 just the last overall question that I have and 22 then I'll turn it over. What are some of the 23 systematic problems inside the MCC, and 24 specifically, the SHU that allowed for Epstein 25 to die? EFTA00114711

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 : I'm sorry. Can you just 2 restate the question? 3 MR. : So, what are some of the 4 problems in the SHU? We just talked about, 5 obviously, if they didn't conduct their rounds 6 and the counts as they should have, the SHU 7 staff -- 8 : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : -- and people didn't act 10 in order to get him a new cellmate, what are 11 some of the other problems, systematic 12 problems? It sounded like you may have 13 mentioned that people were too tired to work 14 (Indiscernible *02:54:04). 15 : Well, that's the only thing 16 I got. Especially at that time. Right now, 17 staffing got a little better. It got a lot 18 better, and staff got put on 12 hour shifts. 19 So, this way, they have more time off. And 20 they can't get stuck for 16s every day. Right? 21 That's now. Then, they were tired. They were 22 tired. And you also didn't, you never had a 23 regular crew. What I mean by a regular crew, 24 you never, you didn't always have the 25 consistent staff in there. And you had staff EFTA00114712

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 that were exhausted, on top of exhaustion. And 2 the SHU unit, in my opinion, always has, when I 3 was even, when I was a SHU officer back in the 4 early 2000s, that was the post. That was one 5 of the most high-profile posts in this 6 building. 7 MR. : The SHU was? 8 : SHU. Yeah. I mean, even 9 until this whole thing happened. 10 MR. : Why? 11 : We had, we had El Chapo for 12 two years. 13 MR. : Right. 14 : Without a hitch. With 15 nothing. 16 MR. : But he was also not in 17 SHU. He was in 10 South. 18 : He was in 10 South. 19 MR. : Do you believe that 20 Epstein should have been in 10 South or G tier? 21 : I mean, my personal opinion 22 really doesn't matter with the grand scope of 23 things. I'm not a decision maker. 24 MR. : Well, just with 20 years 25 at MCC, do you believe he should have -- EFTA00114713

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 : I feel he should have been 2 on 10 South. 3 MR. : Okay. And why? 4 : Because that is the Super 5 Max Unit. That's even more higher security 6 than SHU. And it's also a lot, it's easier, 7 let's say, for instance, on a staff member 8 that's totally exhausted. There's only six 9 cells up there. And you don't have to crawl up 10 and down stairs. You walk from the first cell, 11 it's like a U, almost. 12 MR. : Is it also true that 13 every cell has their own individual camera? 14 : Yes. 15 MR. : And who monitors those 16 cameras? 17 : The officer that is working 18 the unit has the screens up and, right in front 19 of his or her station and the same cameras can 20 be seen in the com room. 21 MR. : Okay. So, is anybody 22 actually monitoring in the com room? 23 : Not on the off-shifts. 24 MR. : Okay. What shifts? 25 : Day shift. EFTA00114714

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 MR. : Just day shift? 2 : There used to be, when the 3 staff was available, the night shift. But for 4 the most part, it was the day shift. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 MR. : Okay. So, but the person that's actually assigned to 10 South, and is this the same for, does the 10 South guy also review G South? The G tier cameras, as well? : I believe the cameras are in there, too. You can see them on that screen, yes. MR. : So, 10 South would watch 13 both -- 14 : Yeah. Uh-huh. 15 MR. : -- 10 South, as well as G 16 tier? 17 : I believe so. 18 MR. : And all of them have 19 cameras? 20 : I could be wrong, but I 21 believe so. 22 MR. : Okay. But you believe 23 that by placing him on 10 South, he would have 24 had more visibility? 25 : Yes. That's my personal EFTA00114715

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 opinion. 2 MR. : Okay. Is there anything 3 else that you want to add that we haven't 4 addressed? 5 : No. 6 MR. : No? 7 MR. : You have about covered 8 everything. Just a last question. Are COs 9 allowed to conduct rounds, counts by 10 themselves? 11 : If there's less than five 12 inmates. 13 MR. : If, let's say in the SHU. 14 Are they allowed to do counts by themselves? 15 : No. There's more than five 16 inmates. Ten South, if there's four inmates on 17 10 South, the officer doesn't need another 18 officer to count. 19 MR. : If they did the count by 20 themselves, is that an actual count? Is it 21 considered as a count? 22 : It's not a proper count. 23 It's not a proper count. I mean, I could 24 count, easily count 96 inmates, 100 inmates, 20 25 inmates, whatever it is, by myself. It's not EFTA00114716

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 going to be an official count unless you have a 2 back-up person. You have, the way the policy 3 works is one officer is supposed to stay at the 4 end of the range, one officer goes downrange, 5 counts the inmates, come back and that other 6 officer goes down and counts the range. And 7 then when you meet back up at the front, I got 8 15, 15, okay. Then they go to the next tier. 9 Cause I might have 15 and you might have 10 counted 14. We got to redo that count. And 11 then until we both jive, and then go to the 12 next tier, same thing, another tier, another 13 tier, whatever, how many tiers there are in the 14 unit, then we come up with our total number, 15 and that's what we call into Control. Say, 16 hey, II, and , I got 55. Fifty- 17 five is a good verbal. All right. Thank you. 18 Sign the count slip. You sign, I give it to 19 you, you sign the count slip. Send it down to 20 internal to control. 21 MR. : Nothing from me. 22 MR. : Nothing? All right. 23 Nothing else? 24 : No. 25 MR. : Any questions for us? EFTA00114717

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Nope. 2 MR. : All right. It is 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 currently 12:22 p.m. on Wednesday, August 4, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent , and I am turning off the recorder. EFTA00114718

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of eiorU-A-7 Marcella Conley, Transcriber EFTA00114720