LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 certain. 2 MR. : Okay. So, back then, 3 they wouldn't have been at the end of the hall? 4 They were probably at the beginning of the 5 tier? 6 : I know at one point in time, 7 they were, the clipboard was being rested on 8 that coax pipe. 9 MR. : Would this be underneath 10 L tier, or would that be where it would be? 11 : No. It's always on the 12 inside of the range. 13 MR. : Always on the inside? 14 Okay. 15 : Yeah. 16 MR. : So it would have been 17 after you opened the range door, but not at the 18 end of the hall at that time? 19 : I know I, like I said, at 20 one point, they had it on the wall to the side, 21 but at one point in time, they were putting the 22 clipboard, they were just resting it on that 23 pipe. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 : As long as it was downrange, EFTA00114575

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 it needed to be downrange. 2 MR. : So, even at that time, it 3 was supposed to be downrange? 4 : They always have to be 5 downrange. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 : Yes. 8 MR. : Per BOP policy? 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. And this is just, 11 so, we had to review a lot of emails and I see, 12 this one, I think, was directed to you. It 13 says, "BOP official legal hold notice for 14 inmate's death." What was your, was your 15 understanding of that not to destroy any 16 documents? 17 : Yes. 18 MR. : All right. Did you 19 destroy any documents? 20 : No. Not at all. 21 MR. : So you still have al] 22 your emails from then and everything? 23 : I don't have anything. 24 Like, I know the AUSA had my memo. I don't 25 even have a copy of my memo. EFTA00114576

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1. 1 MR. : Okay. 2 : And I don't, I didn't tear 3 up anything. 4 MR. : Perfect. 5 : And I've been getting these 6 periodically from you guys. 7 MR. : Oh, you still do? Okay. 8 : Yeah. 9 MR. : Do you still have, like, 10 all the emails from back then and everything? 11 : No. I mean, anything that I 12 had, I either just closed out of, but the thing 13 is, I didn't, I don't even remember having any 14 direct emails. All the official emails, like, 15 I, like, sent them to my trash bin, like even 16 these, I mean, this was just telling me not to 17 destroy anything, and I didn't destroy 18 anything. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 : So, I didn't save these. 21 MR. : Okay. But as far as, so, 22 did you understand, like, as far as if you 23 received an email pertaining to Epstein, were 24 you supposed to save that, or could have you 25 deleted that? EFTA00114577

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 : What do you mean? In, like, 2 as far as from staff? 3 MR. : Yeah, like, for instance, 4 this is another one that, I think this is the 5 email that you would have received, regarding 6 Epstein being required to have a cellmate from 7 July 30, 2019? 8 : Oh, yeah, yeah. No, these, 9 I would get them and delete them. 10 MR. : All right. So you would 11 delete those? 12 : Yeah. And as long as I 13 knew, you know, that was it. 14 MR. : So, you didn't 15 understand, like, this to mean, like, not to 16 delete anything pertaining to Epstein? 17 : No, but the thing is, at 18 least I never got anything like this, after it 19 happened. 20 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm 21 talking about, like, prior to, I think that 22 this is asking you to save anything that was 23 related to Epstein, correct? 24 : Yeah, no. I get what that, 25 you know, that, I didn't think that that was EFTA00114578

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 what it meant. Like these. These were just 2 routine things. I thought it meant -- 3 MR. : Okay. Well, that came 4 from yours. So, you didn't, I was able to get 5 it, at least. 6 : Okay. 7 MR. : You may have deleted it, 8 but my point being is, like -- 9 : Uh-huh. Well, I 10 misunderstood, maybe. I'm thinking destroying 11 means shredding. 12 MR. : But if you received an 13 email pertaining to Epstein, you thought you 14 could delete it? 15 : Yeah. I guess so. 16 MR. : Right. Fair enough. 17 : There's, like, stuff like 18 this, if it's sitting in my trash bin. I don't 19 always empty my trash. I mean, anybody in the 20 Bureau could pull those emails anyway. 21 MR. : Okay. Let me see how -- 22 : Yeah, I thought it meant, 23 like, physically, like, destroying stuff. 24 Like, I wish I could even have a copy of my 25 memo, but AUSA has it. EFTA00114579

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : Cause, like, for 2 instance, this says, "Please preserve all 3 electronic files; example, emails or 4 documents." 5 : Right. I missed, I totally 6 misunderstood. 7 MR. : All right. So, you 8 misunderstood that? 9 : Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : I wouldn't do it 12 maliciously. 13 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, 14 and that's what I wanted to know -- 15 : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : -- cause a lot of people 17 got this, so you're the first person I'm even 18 asking about this. 19 : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : So I was just curious, 21 it's like, what is your understanding. So, did 22 you not know -- 23 : Yeah. I thought it meant, 24 actually, like, physically, like, destroying 25 things, like, you know, in the shredder. EFTA00114580

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. : Right. All right. So, 2 yeah. So you didn't actually read it, I'm 3 assuming, like, where it says emails? That's 4 the first thing it says. 5 : I probably mis, no, like, I 6 remember the first one I received, I called the 7 staff attorney. I was, like, what does this 8 mean? And he was like, just that you're still, 9 it's still active. 10 MR. : Okay. Would you mind, 11 just, anything we talk to you, it's just 12 initialing and dating. 13 : Yeah. No problem. 14 MR. : It's just to say what it 15 is what we looked at and talked about. 16 : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : And you already 18 mentioned, you remember receiving this email 19 from Psychology -- 20 : Yeah. 21 MR. : from 22 23 : Yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00114581

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : Saying that he was 2 required to have a cellmate? 3 : Have a cellmate. 4 MR. : So you do remember that? 5 Okay, great. 6 : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : And you knew he was 8 required to have a cellmate? 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : Do you mind just 11 initialing and dating that? 12 : Sure. 13 MR. : Was that the same email that 14 you mentioned before? Cause you mentioned that 15 there was an email from Captain 16 : I believe there was one, as 17 far as when he, anytime he would be put as a 18 lieutenant hold. This is the one I was talking 19 about, like, Psychology would send out that, 20 about having the cellmate. 21 MR. : Oh. 22 MR. : Thank you, sir. Now, as 23 far as this, you said no one told you. So, 24 this is a memo from, at the time, SOS 25 : Uh-huh. EFTA00114582

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. : G-R-I-J-A-L-V-A. It 2 says, "Past information from Special Housing 3 Unit." It says, "On Friday, August 9, 2019, at 4 approximately 1:50 p.m., I, SOS 5 passed on to oncoming staff member, Officer 6 and present shift staff, SOS and 7 Officer , that inmate Reyes was going WAB 8 and possibly may not return. Also that inmate 9 Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival 10 from his attorney visit." Did you know 11 anything about that? 12 : No. 13 MR. : Is this the first you're 14 seeing of this memo? 15 : That's the first I'm seeing 16 of it. 17 MR. : All right. So, a couple 18 things. First, if passed on to these 19 people and those are the people that worked on 20 your shift? 21 : Yeah. Yes. Right here. 22 No, wait. What does it say? No, 23 was day shift. was day shift. 24 is the only one. 25 MR. : Okay. So, oncoming staff EFTA00114583

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 members , and Officer , so 2 let's see. When would have been working 3 on this, like, what -- 4 : 2 to 10. 5 MR. : So, would have been 6 2 to 10. 7 : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : And the present ones were 9 When would he have been working? 10 : 8 to 4. 11 MR. : And 12 : 8 to 4. 13 MR. : All right. So, I think 14 would have only been working as 15 : Till 2:00. 16 MR. : 2:00. So, if he told, 17 before he left, 2:00, and 18 19 -: 20 MR. : Right. Should any of 21 those people have notified either you or 22 , that he was, that Reyes was gone and -- 23 : Yes. 24 MR. : Yes? Okay. And nobody 25 did? EFTA00114584

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 : I wasn't told. Like I said, 2 I found out the day after it happened. Well, 3 the day that it happened, when I came in. 4 MR. : Now, on the second note 5 of this, if knew that Reyes was WAB, 6 should have he ensured that he got a cellmate 7 prior to his departure, at 1:50 p.m.? So, if 8 Reyes left at 8:38 a.m., WAB, into R&D, he's 9 keyed out of the system. Should a new cellmate 10 have been assigned to Epstein, even prior to 11 leaving? 12 : It would have been prudent 13 to do it as soon as possible. 14 MR. : Okay. So, should 15 have then notified any, you know, 16 , and it looks like , during his 17 shift, that, hey, we need to get Epstein a new 18 cellmate? 19 : Anybody that was on that, 20 that is mentioned there, should have been, if 21 the knowledge got passed, it was never passed 22 to the lieutenants. 23 MR. : Okay. But, okay. And 24 then if the lieutenants knew, so, for instance, 25 and , if told them, hey, EFTA00114585

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 Reyes is gone, should have he notified them 2 that he was WAB gone? Or, so, if he believed 3 he was at court, WAB -- 4 : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- and let's say, for 6 instance, is the Ops, so he's kind of 7 like the boss, right? 8 : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : If knew, yep, 10 know Reyes is gone. I know he is Epstein's 11 cellmate. Is there any reason, and especially 12 if he went WAB, is there any reason, any 13 argument for to be made that, well, 14 didn't know if he was coming back or not? 15 : If he wasn't notified that 16 he was WAB, it would, you wouldn't know. 17 MR. : Okay. So, if he wasn't, 18 if he didn't know he was WAS, it is an argument 19 to be made to say, well, he could have come 20 back, is that correct? 21 : Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. So, he would have 23 had to have known that he was WAB? 24 : If he didn't, he would have 25 had to have known he was WAB, if he knew he EFTA00114586

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 wasn't coming home, like, coming home, coming 2 back to the jail. 3 MR. : Okay. All right. If he 4 knew he was WAB, he should have acted and 5 gotten him a new cellmate. If he didn't know 6 he was WAB, then it was okay for him not to 7 issue him a new cellmate? 8 : Yeah. If he didn't know he 9 wasn't coming back or if he was even gone, he 10 wouldn't know. That's why I said, if the white 11 shirts didn't get notified, we don't know 12 what's happening. 13 MR. : Yeah, yeah. But you had, 14 so, let me ask you separately. If says, 15 yep, I knew Reyes was, I knew Reyes was gone. 16 I knew Reyes was Epstein's cellmate. And he 17 didn't know he was WAB. Was it okay for him 18 not to have acted? 19 : No. If he was told, it was 20 not okay. 21 MR. : But if he wasn't told 22 that he was WAB, he was just told he went to 23 court. 24 : I mean, at that point in 25 time, I would have been a little worried that EFTA00114587

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1_ 1 he was alone, but you're talking day watch, 2 there's constant movement. 3 MR. : Well, if Epstein's down 4 in attorney visits until 8 p.m. -- 5 : Yeah. That's probably what 6 happened. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 : He's in attorney conference, 9 thinking by the time he goes back upstairs, 10 this guy is coming back from court. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 : I'm assuming. 13 MR. : And what time did 14 work until, until that day? 15 : I relieved him at just about 16 probably 2:00. 17 MR. : Okay. So, if he is 18 saying, I knew Reyes was gone, but I didn't 19 know he wasn't coming back, would that 20 translate to mean he didn't know he was WAB? 21 : Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. So, if he didn't 23 know he was WAB, was it okay for not to 24 tell you that Reyes was gone? 25 : If he didn't think that EFTA00114588

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 there was an issue, no. 2 MR. : Should have he told you 3 that there was gone, being that it was Epstein, 4 he was required to have a cellmate, and Reyes 5 was at court? 6 : If he knew, then he should 7 have notified me. 8 MR. : So, regardless if he was 9 WAB or not, he should have notified you that 10 Reyes was at least at court? 11 : At that point in time, so, 12 see, this is where it's hard to tell. Look, 13 when you're Operations Lieutenant, you're 14 moving, you're working the entire institution. 15 MR. : Yep. 16 : You're filling overtime. As 17 you can see, filling that roster was a 18 nightmare. 19 MR. : Uh-huh. 20 : All right? You're doing 21 this, you're doing that. You're doing a 22 million things. Right? You may not even know 23 that this guy even went to court. 24 MR. : But if he says he knew? 25 : If he says he knew -- EFTA00114589

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 MR. : He says he knew he went 2 to court. He just didn't know that he wasn't 3 coming back. 4 : That's different. If he 5 knew, if he said he knew, then something should 6 have happened. 7 MR. : So, if he knew he went to 8 court, even if he says, I didn't know if he 9 wasn't coming back or not, he should have at 10 least notified you, though, hey, heads-up, 11 Reyes is at court? 12 : Uh-huh. Yeah. Or it was 13 just, or at least tell the OIC, like, listen, 14 if Epstein comes back up and this guy is not 15 back from court yet, make sure Epstein has a 16 bunkie. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 : You know, something should 19 have been put in place. 20 MR. : So, should have at 21 least, should have notified either, should have 22 notified, it sounds like, both you, as well as, 23 in this case, who was the OIC at the time? 24 : Day watch OIC? 25 MR. : So, EFTA00114590

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : SHU-1 is OIC. 2 MR. : Okay. So, but even 3 though , so was the OIC, 4 though, I think, for, like, the whole, is it 5 always SHU-1? Cause I thought was 6 just the OIC, like, in the SHU, I thought it 7 worked that, like, was -- 8 : Whoever is assigned as SHU-1 9 is the OIC. That's the OIC position. 10 MR. : All right. Cause my 11 understanding was that at this period of time, 12 was known as the OIC of the SHU. 13 : If he, unless he is 14 assigned, if he is assigned to SHU-1 -- 15 MR. : Just SHU-1? 16 : -- for the quarter, then 17 you're the OIC. 18 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, 19 though, . So, should have notified 20 21 : If he knew. 22 MR. : If he knew that, if he 23 knew that he was at court, but again, wasn't 24 sure he wasn't coming back, what should have he 25 told EFTA00114591

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 : That make sure that if 2 Epstein, when Epstein comes back from legal 3 visit, he gets a bunkie. 4 MR. : Okay. And never 5 informed you? 6 : No. 7 MR. : Okay. And should have he 8 informed you? 9 : If he knew -- 10 MR. : If he knew that he was in 11 court? 12 : -- that he wasn't going to 13 get a bunkie, I should have been told. 14 MR. : Great. But what I'm 15 asking, sorry, I think we're confusing here -- 16 : If he knew that he was 17 MR. : -- even if he didn't know 18 that he was, so, if his argument is -- 19 : Just the fact that he was 20 out. 21 MR. : Right. 22 : If he knew, yes, I should 23 have been told. 24 MR. : So, if he knew he was at 25 court, he should have let you know? EFTA00114592

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 : If he knew that, if he knew 2 that he was going to not have a bunkie, I 3 should have been, I should have known, being 4 that I was coming on. 5 MR. : So, this is where I'm 6 trying, just try to focus on my words. 7 : I'm sorry. 8 MR. : Right now, I'm asking, if 9 Reyes was at court, but didn't know that 10 he wasn't coming back. He just knew that Reyes 11 was at court, should have he told you? 12 : Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. So, regardless if 14 he was coming back or not, he should have 15 notified you? 16 : Well, see, that's the thing. 17 We don't always, we don't know who went to 18 court until we do that roster of the movement. 19 MR. : But if we talk to 20 and he says, yep, i know Reyes was at court. 21 : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : I just didn't know if he 23 was coming back or not. 24 : Yeah. 25 MR. : Should have he relayed EFTA00114593

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 that information to you? 2 : Yes. Especially because of 3 the profile found. 4 MR. : Okay. So, he should have 5 relayed that information? 6 : Yeah. 7 MR. : Okay. I just wanted to 8 get to that. Do you mind just initialing and 9 date that? 10 : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : And he did not, correct? 12 : No. 13 MR. : Thank you, sir. Do you 14 remember, while we're at it, do you remember in 15 this case being that shift says it 16 ends at 2. Well, , she's on an overtime 17 shift. So, she doesn't actually start until 4. 18 : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : Is it okay, do you know 20 if would have had to have stayed from 2 21 to 4 until he was -- 22 : Not necessarily. As long as 23 there's a lieutenant on the desk. 24 MR. : Okay. So, the fact that 25 if you're, you know, either you or is EFTA00114594

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/_ 1 there, could have ended at 2? 2 : Yes. 3 MR. : And there could be a gap 4 from 2 to 4 with -- 5 : Yeah. That was actually 6 common. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 : You know. Especially when 9 we didn't have a regular lieutenant scheduled 10 for the 2 to 10 activities. 11 MR. : Okay. So, would you 12 always get, as a lieutenant, especially as Ops 13 and Activities, would you get the prisoner 14 production lists? 15 : Yes. From R&D. 16 MR. : And then was that 17 something that you were supposed to review? 18 : It's basically, if we needed 19 it. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, for instance, this 23 one. It shows that it was dated Thursday, 24 August 8, 2019, prisoner production for August 25 9, 2019. EFTA00114595

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MR. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : Uh-huh. : It's from, it says -- : Elzahr. MR. Elzahr, E-L-Z -- : Yeah, he used to work here. Now he works for the U.S. MarshallaMarshals. MR. : Okay. E-L-Z-A-H-R. : Yeah. MR. : And then this is the attachment to it. : Uh-huh. MR. : So, it says the second list down was Efrain Reyes. Are you able to 122 tell going on with Efrain Reyes be the from this at all what it was that was that day? : Sorry. That would probably time that he had to go down to court. MR. MR. mean anything? : Okay. : Down to R&D. : Does this transfer within : I'm not familiar. It doesn't say that on our stuff. MR. : But this would have been what you got, right? This is the email that EFTA00114596

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 was sent to the lieutenants? 2 : Yeah. 3 MR. : I pulled this from your 4 emails. 5 : No, I got it. 6 MR. : So, I'm just, I'm 7 curious, is this something that, like -- 8 : Transfer within doesn't, it 9 don't jump out at me, cause I'm used to seeing, 10 like, pre-remove, pre-hold. 11 MR. : Okay. So, there's the 12 PP38 that you were talking about. 13 : Okay. 14 MR. : It shows from 8/9/2019. 15 : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : So that's the daily log. 17 : Yeah. 18 MR. : On the third page, it 19 says, "Reyes, pre-remove, 8:38." 20 : Yes. 21 MR. : If he was just going -- 22 : That's the time that he was 23 keyed out of the institution. 24 MR. : So, if he was just going 25 to court, would have he been listed to pre- EFTA00114597

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 remove? 2 : No. It would, I believe it 3 would say SDNY or EDNY, or whatever, whatever 4 court he was going to. 5 MR. : So, if it was listed as 6 pre-remove -- 7 : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : -- does that assume that 9 he's not coming back? 10 : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. So, at 8:38 -- 12 : Now, that has changed 13 before. Like, they've been pre-removed and 14 then come back 15 MR. : Okay. 16 : -- because something got 17 cancelled. 18 MR. : All right. So, is this 19 something that you got, like, as the Ops and 20 the Activities Lieutenant, are you supposed to 21 be kind of aware of this stuff? 22 : Well, we would get sent 23 this, mainly, I hate to say this, there would 24 be sometimes issues with the officers in the 25 morning, getting the inmates out to court. EFTA00114598

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. actual : Okay. : And they wouldn't have the court list, so if they had to call us and be, like, hey, Lou, you know, R&D is calling for this guy and I would just bring this up, and be like, yeah, he's on the list. But we wouldn't study this. We would just, we were included in the Marshall.;Marshals loop, because we would be the supervisors. MR. : Now, if he was actually being transferred to another institution -- : Uh-huh. MR. : -- would he be also listed on the court list? : No, he would be on the moves for the day. MR. : All right. So, here is an email from also the U.S. Meeshe4sMarshals Service, from a Choo, C-H-O-O -- MR. Prisoners MR. : Okay. : -- subject, "Transfer of from NYM to GEO." : GEO. GEO. : What's GEO? : It's the private jail. EFTA00114599

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : In New York? : Yes. I believe it's in New York. I'm not sure. MR. : Okay. And this one is also dated Thursday, August 8, 2019. It says, "The following prisoners are to be transferred." Here it says, "Reyes, Efrain." And his reg number. "Please schedule a transfer for Friday, 8/9/2019." Do you know why he would be listed on this email, on August 8th , 8th? as well as a prisoner production on August Is there any -- : No. No. That's whatever the Marshall&Marshals were doing. MR. : Have you ever seen something like that before? : What, moving an inmate? MR. : Well, so, on this, it says he's going to court, right? : Uh-huh. MR. : But on this one, it says he's being transferred. : Quite honestly, it's, I know I've seen, like I said, like on the 38, I'm just going, I'm sorry, I'm going BOP-wise. EFTA00114600

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And then the 38 -- 2 : On the 38, see, like, GCT 3 release, full-time release, FT release, or like 4 you see here, the pre-remove status and stuff 5 like that. 6 MR. : Yeah, so that's kind of 7 where we're trying to, we're trying to put 8 these pieces together. Why would he be on an 9 email here, saying that prisoner schedule 10 report, listing him as court. Here, saying 11 he's being transferred, excuse me, to the GEO. 12 : GEO. 13 MR. : And then on the 38, 14 showing he's pre-removed. 15 : Yeah. I guess, I'm 16 assuming, I could be wrong, this is just the 17 way our computer, the way our system puts it 18 in. Like, this right here, the FT release, 19 that means this guy maxed out. He's not going 20 to, like, a halfway house or anything like 21 that. Where is it? Pre-remove means he's 22 being transferred. 23 MR. : Pre-remove means he's 24 being transferred? 25 : Transferred. EFTA00114601

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 MR. : And do you know if this 2 thing next to him would be that transfer within 3 thing? Would that be -- 4 : I don't know. Honestly, I 5 have, I can't answer that. 6 MR. : Okay. Giovanne Bousy. 7 (Phonetic Sp. *01:29:42). Where's that guy? 8 Yeah, so, Bousy officer says transfer -- 9 : Pre-remove. 10 MR. : -- and he's pre-remove. 11 But these other guys don't seem to say transfer 12 within. So, is this something like, if this is 13 being sent to the lieutenant, should you be 14 able to look at this and say, like, transfer 15 within, that means he's out of here? 16 : Honestly, I can't answer 17 that. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 : I have never looked, I have 20 honestly never looked at that part. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 : I have never looked at it. 23 MR. : So, when you receive 24 this, do you, as the Ops Lieutenant, Activities 25 Lieutenant, look at these things, these EFTA00114602

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 prisoner production lists? 2 : I would glance at it, and I 3 would see what it is, but I would normally, I'm 4 not going to lie. I would put it off to the 5 side, because I would only really use that if 6 there was a problem with the officers getting 7 the inmates to court. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : And then, you know, R&D 10 calling the lieutenants over, saying, hey, I'm 11 trying to get this dude down from 7 North, and 12 they're not sending him, and then I would look. 13 MR. : All right. 14 : I didn't look at it every 15 day. 16 MR. : So, the fact that these 17 are being sent to the MCC -- 18 : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : -- saying he's transfer 20 within here, and he's here being, you know, 21 this one is, the prison production list, and 22 this one is being the transfer order for these 23 two people. 24 : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : And then obviously at EFTA00114603

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8:38, he is listed as pre-remove. So, we're being notified that Reyes is leaving the institution. With these notifications from the U.S. MarohallDMarshals Service, who should have acted? Who should have known, Reyes isn't coming back? : I mean, whoever saw it first. MR. : Who, is there somebody, like, that's responsible for, like, saying, like, all right? : Everybody in this address box gets it from the Me*ehealeMarshals. It goes out at the same time. MR. : Sure. MR. : And that's what I mean, there's a lot of people there. : Yeah. And that's the thing. MR. : There's a lot of people here, and there's less people on this one. : Uh-huh. MR. : This one, it looks like it's, does this look, can you indicate from the transfer email, can you tell at that time who those people would have been? EFTA00114604

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 R&D staff. 131 : Okay. Everybody here is the 3 MR. : Okay. So, R&D gets the 4 actual transfer notice. 5 : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : On this prisoner 7 production list, it looks like, you know, 8 Efrain Reyes saying that he's leaving and it 9 says a transfer within. 10 : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : As does the other person 12 on this email. 13 : Yeah. 14 MR. : This Giovanne -- 15 : Bousy. 16 MR. : Bousy also says 17 transfer within. 18 : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : None of the other guys 20 seem to say transfer within. They all say, 21 like, status hearing, sentencing, change of 22 plea. All that kind of stuff. 23 : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : So, being that we got 25 this going to R&D, then we got this going to, EFTA00114605

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 also, custody, saying that, you know, he is 2 being transferred within, is it the captain 3 that should have known it? Is it, who is the 4 one that should have said, like, yes, we know 5 he's leaving this institution. This is 6 Epstein's celimate. Who should have been able 7 to take action on this? 8 : I can't, I can't, I don't 9 know. 10 MR. : You don't know? 11 : I don't know. I don't know 12 who would have been the main person responsible 13 for it. I mean, I guess everybody, I guess 14 it's for everybody's eyes, but it wasn't 15 something that routinely got utilized. 16 MR. : Is this something that 17 would have been, if this is a transfer within, 18 this transfer notice, is this something that 19 the SHU staff would have been notified of? 20 Saying -- 21 : No. SHU, I don't believe 22 SHU -- 23 MR. : Cause they're not on 24 this. 25 : -- the COs were tagged on EFTA00114606

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it. MR. far as, comes : But I'm saying, like, as here's the, you know, whatever -- : Well, the inmates, whatever on that, whatever R&D gets from the MarahalloMarshals Service, they put out their own court list to the staff. MR. : Huh. : The officers get regular court lists generated. So those names of those inmates would get put on the court, the call out list. MR. : Okay. : And for the court list, and that court list gets handed out in the morning. MR. : Okay. So, as far as this, it looks like we know he's being transferred, and now that we're seeing that these two guys that were being transferred are both listed on this prisoner schedule report as transfer within -- : Uh-huh. MR. : -- what should R&D have done? Should have they, are the people that are listed on that court list, are they also EFTA00114607

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 the people that are being transferred to other 2 institutions? 3 : No. Everybody on the court 4 list, it would say exactly what they are. If 5 they're on the court list, it would say, you 6 know, court. It would say, or, it would say, 7 you know, WAB. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : So, and then they send that 10 out to the housing units, including SHU. 11 MR. : So, again, if, you know, 12 going back to that memo, knows, it 13 says, would it say WAB or court? Or both? 14 : I believe it just says, if 15 it's WAB, it would say, it would say, I think 16 it says FT remove, or I'm not 100% sure. 17 haven't seen one in so long. 18 MR. : Okay. All right. So 19 you're not exactly sure what it said, but -- 20 : No. 21 MR. : -- it's all the same 22 document of the people they need to bring down 23 that morning? 24 : Yeah, but it's, all of this 25 is not on that. EFTA00114608

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 MR. : Right. 2 : It would just say the 3 inmate's name and that he's got to be in, it 4 says a.m. court and p.m. court, from the last 5 time I saw the actual court list. A.M. court, 6 meaning he's got to be down there at 6:30 in 7 the morning, once R&D opens. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : P.M. court would be 10 afternoon. 11 MR. : All right. 12 : And SHU gets that legal, 13 that court list, just like every other housing 14 unit. 15 MR. : But again, if 16 for instance, knows that he's the one who walks 17 him down to R&D, he walks Reyes down. He knows 18 he's WAB. Again, you're saying, you know he's 19 WAS. He ain't coming back unless something 20 gets cancelled. 21 : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : Like a transport gets 23 cancelled. 24 : Basically. 25 MR. : All right. So, it sounds EFTA00114609

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 like is the one who actually should 2 have, at the very least, notified his 3 superiors, hey, we need to get him a new 4 cellmate. Is it okay that he has wrote this 5 memo, saying, I passed it on. You know, I knew 6 at 8:38 he was WAB, but I passed it on to the 2 7 p.m. people, make sure he gets a cellmate? 8 : I don't, like, can you, I'm 9 sorry. 10 MR. : So, I'm just trying to 11 figure out who messed up here. Cause 12 obviously, Epstein's required to have a 13 cellmate. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : We saw from that email. 16 We know Reyes is being transferred. We know 17 he's gone. 18 : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : So, we know the day 20 before it happens, there's emails that go out. 21 We know at 8:38, R&D listed him as pre-remove. 22 He's gone from this institution. However, 23 Epstein never gets a new cellmate. 24 : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : Somebody doesn't take EFTA00114610

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 action. So, what I'm trying to figure out is, 2 who should have taken action? 3 : I mean, I don't, I can't 4 make that decision. I don't know. 5 MR. : As the Ops Lieutenant at 6 the time, you can't figure that -- 7 : I mean, as an Ops 8 Lieutenant, I should have been told by 9 somebody. 10 MR. : Right. 11 : I should have known about 12 it. 13 MR. : Uh-huh. All right. And 14 so, when is passing, would 15 have known, though, if he were WAB? 16 : I should have been notified, 17 truth be told, the way, I was brought up in 18 this agency, I should have been notified by the 19 OIC. 20 MR. : Right. So, but you 21 weren't on the schedule? Like, in the daytime? 22 : In the daytime, no. 23 MR. : So that's where, I'm not 24 even focusing on you. 25 : No, I get it. I get it. EFTA00114611

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 MR. : I'm focusing on the 2 daytime thing. 3 : I get it. 4 MR. : What should have 5 happened? knows, WAB? 6 : The OIC should have notified 7 day watch Operations. 8 MR. : Okay. So, should 9 have known, he should have been, he should have 10 known, yes, he is WAB and he needs a new 11 cellmate. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : Then what should have he 14 done? 15 : Made sure that he got a 16 cellmate. 17 MR. : Should have he notified 18 the captain? Or should have he just gotten him 19 the cellmate? 20 : He should have got on the, 21 told the SHU OIC, hey, get, he needs a bunkie, 22 ASAP. 23 MR. : Okay. So, it basically 24 falls onto the Ops Lieutenant to have, he 25 needed to have taken that action? EFTA00114612

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 : To make sure that, ensure 2 the OIC. 3 MR. : All right. And do you 4 remember, I know you said you didn't know he 5 transferred, but should his, you know, should 6 you have known by these documentations, from 7 this prisoner report? 8 : If I had read that, well, 9 this, I don't, I have never seen this before. 10 MR. : Right. This one. 11 : But that? 12 MR. : From looking at it? 13 : I would just, from looking 14 at it -- 15 MR. : Would you even know? 16 I don't remember, recall 17 the transfer within. I would always only look 18 at the names. And know that they have to be 19 generated for a court list. 20 MR. : Okay. So you just know 21 these people are going to court? You don't 22 even know that the transfer was (Indiscernible 23 *01:37:52) the transfer? 24 : I don't always know, off the 25 top of my head, like, this guy is going here, EFTA00114613

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 this guy is going there. I just know they have 2 to be presented so there's no problems, like, I 3 said, I would only really refer to that if R&D 4 contacted me and said, hey, LT, this guy, I'm 5 waiting an hour so far for this guy. Can you 6 get on the office? And I'd look, okay, yeah. 7 Hey, Jones, inmate Schmukatelli (Phonetic Sp. 8 *01:38:11) from 7 North, you know, you got to 9 get him to court. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : He's on the court list. 12 MR. : All right. So, and as 13 the court list, does the Op, like, would 14 have had that court list, saying, if it said 15 WAB, would have he had that, , the Ops 16 Lieutenant, have the court list? 17 : Yes and no. Sometimes, the 18 internal would drop a copy of the court list 19 off to the lieutenant's office. Mainly, the 20 main people that need it was internal, and the 21 housing units. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 : And SHU. 24 MR. : All right. So, the Ops 25 Lieutenant isn't actually provided a copy of EFTA00114614

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the court list? : It's not required. MR. : All right. Okay. Do you mind just initialing and dating these? (Indiscernible *01:38:54). MR. : While you do that, the transfer email, the one that you signed, who was that from? : It's from Elzahr. MR. : And you mentioned before, Elzahr used to work here? : Yeah. He used to be BOP. MR. : Just to clarify. Was he working here during this Epstein time (Indiscernible *01:39:07). : No, he was already gone. MR. : Okay. MR. : He's from the Ma*ehal4eMarshals Service. The Meehe44eMarshals Service. MR. : But before, he said he was working here, and now he's, I just want to clarify for the record. : No, he was -- MR. : Gone at that point? EFTA00114615

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 : -- gone long before that 2 happened. 3 MR. : Thank you. Thank you. 4 : This too? 5 MR. : Yes, please. The other 6 way, you can keep them in order. Thank you. 7 : These too? 8 MR. : We're going to keep them, 9 just so if we have to refer to them. 10 : Okay. 11 MR. : That's easier. All 12 right. So, what time is the daily activities 13 report and the lieutenant's log usually sent 14 out in the mornings for the day before? 15 : It's done on the morning 16 shift. 17 MR. : So is it always supposed 18 to be done before 6 a.m.? 19 : Yeah. As the morning watch 20 lieutenant, I have to make sure that before my 21 shift is done, I send out the whole thing, and 22 that's the roster, cause if you look at the 23 back, the last person to sign it is the evening 24 watch lieutenant. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114616

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 : I now, as the morning watch 2 lieutenant, you know, the 10 to 6 or 12 to 8, 3 whichever it is, this, I have to print out the 4 daily log, the three daily logs from the 5 midnight to 8, prior, the day shift, and the 6 evening watch and there's a thing that, and it 7 gets emailed to the exec staff, the captain, 8 and I believe it used to get emailed to the 9 executive assistant, if I'm not mistaken. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : There was a certain amount 12 of people on the thing. 13 MR. : But is it supposed to be 14 done, basically, the morning, the morning watch 15 shift ends at 6 a.m., correct? 16 : Yes. 17 MR. : So it's supposed to be, 18 like, sent out before 6 a.m.? 19 : Yes. 20 MR. : All right. So, I have 21 these emails from Tuesday, August 6, 2019. 22 This one was sent at 5:16 a.m. The next one 23 from August 7th was sent at 5:03 a.m. For some 24 reason, I wasn't able to look at Thursday, but 25 Friday, August 9'h, was sent out at 5:11 a.m. EFTA00114617

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 And then Saturday, August 10, 2019, it wasn't 2 sent out until almost, it says almost 9:30 a.m. 3 9:26 a.m. Do you know why, any reason, why 4 that could have happened, if, if (Indiscernible 5 *01:41:21). 6 : You know what? It might 7 have been because she didn't go home at the end 8 of her shift, because that kicked off. 9 MR. : But if that didn't kick 10 off until 6:33 a.m. -- 11 : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : -- her shift, she says 13 she, the person relieved her by 6 a.m. -- 14 MR. : 5:30. 15 MR. : -- at 5, so somewhere 16 between 5:30 a.m. and 6 a.m. -- 17 : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : -- is there a reason why 19 she wouldn't have sent it out before her shift 20 ended? 21 : I don't know. 22 MR. : You don't know? 23 : No, I don't know. 24 MR. : All right. And then the 25 next day, though, the next couple of days, EFTA00114618

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 Sunday, August 11th, it actually doesn't, isn't 2 sent out until 6:15 a.m., and then the day 3 after that, August 12th, it actually isn't sent 4 out until 6:36 a.m. 5 : Yeah. It all depends on, 6 like, what, like I said, I mean, that's a 7 different story. That was an emergency 8 situation, but there's things, other things 9 that happen. You get tied up. You got to get 10 pulled, you know, got to go see the captain. 11 You got to go, you're in R&D, dealing with 12 something, and then you don't get to close out. 13 Especially if you're doing a double, too. 14 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, 15 though, in these cases, like, for the morning 16 watch Ops Lieutenant, do they sometimes get 17 relieved and that's when they work on, oh, I 18 got to get all the, I got to get the activity, 19 or I got to get the daily log and lieutenant's 20 log up-to-date now? 21 : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : And then stay behind to 23 do that? 24 : As far as, well, after 25 you're relieved? EFTA00114619

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MR. : Yep. 2 : It does happen. 3 MR. : Right. 4 : You know, you can't, the 5 bottom line is, as a lieutenant, you should not 6 be leaving and leaving stuff incomplete. 7 MR. : Okay. And it's that Ops 8 Lieutenant's responsibility to complete it? 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : And then once it's 11 completed, are they then supposed to send out, 12 send it out to everybody? 13 : Yes. The morning watch 14 Operations Lieutenant -- 15 MR. : Right. 16 : -- is the one that sends out 17 the paperwork. The daily paperwork. 18 MR. : All right. So, the fact 19 that, if something wasn't sent out before 9:30, 20 does that indicate to you, you know, you, well, 21 it's because she hadn't finished it yet, so she 22 stayed behind in order to finish it? 23 : That definitely could be the 24 case. 25 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just EFTA00114620

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 initialing and dating that? 2 : Sure. 3 MR. : All right. Thank you. 4 Now, here is the one that we were just talking 5 about, that sent out on 6 Saturday, August 10, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. As 7 you'll see, this is August 10th. So I just want 8 to draw your attention to a few things. 9 Friday, August 9th, that starts at 12 a.m., then 10 we get to 8:30 a.m. On this daily activities 11 log, it shows at 8:38 a.m., Reyes, from the 12 SHU, or from ZO6-220 UAD to pre-remove. Who 13 would have filled that out? Do you know? 14 : The Operations Lieutenant. 15 MR. : At the time? 16 : Yeah. Day watch operations. 17 MR. : All right. So, is it R&D 18 should have called and told the Operations 19 Lieutenant, hey, this person is pre-removed and 20 that's how, how would they get that 21 information? 22 : No, well, normally, we would 23 do a 38. 24 MR. : Okay. So, as in, that, 25 he would have been entered in the system at EFTA00114621

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that time, saying remove? 2 : Uh-huh. That would, yeah, 3 and then, cause as the inmates leave the 4 institution, this has to get updated. 5 MR. : But wouldn't, I mean, we 6 do have the 38 that I showed you at 8:38, but 7 would this be R& doing that, or the Operations 8 Lieutenant? 9 : No. The day watch 10 Operations Lieutenant would print out a 38. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 : To do this. To be able to 13 do this. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 : Basically, we would read off 16 of that. 17 MR. : So, would only, so, for 18 this specific thing from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., is 19 this the responsibility of, for instance, in 20 this case, 21 : Day watch operations. Yes. 22 MR. : So, would, could, 23 should, could anyone after , like, you or 24 even , who sent this out -- 25 : Anybody could go back in and EFTA00114622

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 update the log. 2 MR. : And is that a problem, if 3 they do that? 4 : I don't know. I guess now 5 it is, but I don't -- 6 MR. : No, no, no. I'm not, I 7 don't know that it's a problem or not. 8 : No, we, we, we, it's common 9 practice. It's like, if, you know, we could go 10 back and correct, cause this way, look, also, 11 if an incident happened on day watch, I'm not 12 talking about this incident. If, let's say, 13 there was a use of force. 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 : And that day watch 16 lieutenant is running the use of force team, 17 the oncoming lieutenant could, like, update the 18 log, so that lieutenant could finish what, you 19 know, he or she was doing with the move. 20 MR. : Okay. But in this case, 21 at 8:38, now, he's listed as pre-removed right 22 here. 23 : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : Who do you believe would 25 have entered that? EFTA00114623

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 : It should, in my opinion, it 2 would be the day watch Operations Lieutenant. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : And then, again, if it's listed as pre-removed, would they have known, hey, Reyes is gone? He's not coming back. : That should be an indicator, yes. MR. : Okay. And again, that would have been , so entered this and it actually says, pre-remove. Hey, Reyes is gone. Epstein needs a new roommate or cellmate? : Uh-huh. MR. : All right. Do you remember anything regarding, I know this is at 3:415 p.m., but it says, "I.M. Fernandez, placed on dry cell from Il." Do you remember anything involving that? : I do not. I don't recall. MR. : All right. I'll show you some emails later. But, this, again, do you believe that would that have been the Ops Lieutenant would have entered that? : Yes. Only a lieutenant is doing this log. EFTA00114624

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 MR. : Okay. 2 : That's the lieutenant's log. 3 MR. : So, if someone after this 4 shift did this, would they have to, like, is 5 there a way to just kind of enter a line in 6 here to do, you know, extra? How would they 7 modify this? Would they have to modify 8 everything or can you just enter in -- 9 : No. You could add a space. 10 MR. : Add a space? 11 : Add a space. 12 MR. : And then do 13 (Indiscernible *01:46:31). 14 : And then just enter the time 15 and enter it then. 16 MR. : And as far as you're 17 concerned, that's actually not an issue, if 18 they go back and correct something or -- 19 : Not that they go back and 20 correct. If you go back and have to add, 21 because now you're involved in the thing. 22 Like, let's say if I was coming on and you were 23 the day watch Operations Lieutenant, I was the 24 evening watch, and I'm relieving you. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00114625

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 : And you're like, hey, we got 2 a use of force going on upstairs. Right? I 3 got to go run the team. Can you just finish my 4 log? That kind of thing. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 : You know? Not so much go 7 back to dot another lieutenant's I's and cross 8 another lieutenant's T's. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 : Just like piggyback off of 11 one another. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 : And I'm sorry, I have to 14 keep leaning in, cause I don't have glasses. 15 MR. : No, no, no. I'm sorry. 16 I'm sorry. So, 3:15, there's this, and this is 17 where the confusing part is. We're not sure 18 who exactly, so this was your shift. 19 : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : So, would have this top 21 part been something that you would have added, 22 or then brought over? It does say it up here. 23 So, does this all just get transferred from 24 this space over to here? 25 : Yes. Uh-huh. And then, EFTA00114626

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 anything then has to be added or added or taken 2 away. 3 MR. : Okay. So, on this one, 4 it says, "I.M. Fernandez, dry cell with staff 5 in R&D." It says, "Good verbal count 6 announced." Now, this is where it starts 7 getting a little tricky, because we have to -- 8 : Uh-huh. Yeah. I had gone 9 home almost at 10:00. This is where, like I 10 said, where the piggyback would be. 11 MR. : Yep. 12 -: would go, just and 13 close out, because she would be the one here, 14 when the clear count took place. 15 MR. : Okay. So, this is where 16 things get a little whacky, because we're 17 saying, it looks like somebody would have 18 possibly modified this, especially, see, look. 19 This one is Saturday, August 10, 2019. 20 : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : Starting at 12 a.m., 22 Lieutenant G. assumes duties. The SHU 23 says 73-5. Well, at 12 a.m., it actually came 24 over as 72-5. At 12:35 a.m., minus one SHU 25 correction, Fernandez, dry cell. Fernandez was EFTA00114627

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 not keyed out of SHU -- 2 : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- until 12:35, although 4 he was removed at 3:15 p.m. We're going to get 5 into the counts now, but all these counts are 6 off. That's not what the counts were. 7 : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : The counts were actually 9 plus one for all of these, although they should 10 have been, these should have been the accurate 11 numbers, but they weren't. 12 : Huh. 13 MR. : It came over, on the 14 counts, these are listed as 73, 73, 72, 74, 75, 15 76. 16 : Always one more. 17 MR. : Right. And it's because 18 this was corrected to go back down to 72-5, and 19 this was 73. So, I'm just trying to piece this 20 together. Would that be, why would have she 21 done that, if she has got listed that there was 22 this correction, why would have she gone back 23 and changed all that stuff? 24 : I don't know. Maybe cause 25 she didn't want to go back and change it. I EFTA00114628

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 don't know. I can't -- 2 MR. : Does that make sense to 3 do that, though? 4 : I can't answer. 5 MR. : If it came over as 73-5, 6 and this list is listed at 72-5, does that make 7 any sense to do that? 8 : No, I would want to go back 9 and verify everything, because then if the 10 count is not right. I would want to ensure 11 that the count is right. 12 MR. : All right. So, let's go 13 over the counts then. 14 : I can't really answer the 15 question, though. I don't know why it was 16 done. 17 MR. : So, here, just to close 18 the loop with Fernandez, here is, so, for 19 instance, here is a, to the lieutenants, it 20 says it's from (Phonetic Sp. *01:50:02) 21 22 : PA, physician's assistant. 23 MR. : Okay. So, it says, you 24 know, inmate name. Here is another one that's 25 from the captain to you, asking you to use a EFTA00114629

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 specific form. It looks like this is a 2 synopsis from on what actually, I guess, 3 transpired. 4 : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : I'm assuming maybe you 6 sent it to him or . So, here is one 7 that sent to you on Friday, August 9, 8 2019, at 6:07 p.m. 9 And this is the, you know, synopsis of 10 what happened. "On August 9, 2019, at 11 approximately 1:40 p.m., SOS , while 12 assigned to the Special Housing Unit, proceeded 13 to enter the 9 South visiting room. As I 14 walked towards the door, I observed through the 15 visiting door inmate Fernandez attempt to grab 16 an unknown item from his visitor. Once inmate 17 Fernandez reached to grab the item, I 18 (Indiscernible *01:50:55) the door and called 19 for a lieutenant. Once I was able to enter the 20 visiting room, I gave inmate Fernandez a direct 21 order to walk to the visiting room to conduct a 22 visual search. Inmate Fernandez complied and a 23 visual search was conducted. Operations 24 Lieutenant was contacted and inmate Fernandez 25 was removed from the unit." EFTA00114630

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 So, should have this been listed as 3:15 2 p.m., or should it have been listed as 1:40 3 p.m.? Do you know? 4 : No, the 3:40 p.m. would be 5 the time that he was placed on dry cell. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 : Would not necessarily be the 8 time of the incident. 9 MR. : All right. So, this, 10 where he did the visual search -- 11 : This is the time, this is 12 the time of the incident. 13 MR. : -- but not the time, 14 okay. This is the time of the incident, dry 15 cell would have been a different thing. All 16 right. Do you remember, I mean, do you 17 remember at all that incident on that day? 18 : I don't recall. It happened 19 so often, so. 20 MR. : Sure. Now, would 21 it says that he sent you this at 6:07 22 p.m. Would have he sent this to you from 23 inside the institution? 24 : Yeah. It would have been 25 from the computer. Email. EFTA00114631

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 MR. : Okay. So, if he's not 2 listed on anywhere. He's listed as leaving at 3 1:50 p.m. Is it, we're able to tell where 4 was? 5 : That's odd. That is very 6 odd. 7 MR. : And it all makes sense 8 that he was there at 6:07, because all these 9 inmates' emails are going back, you know, use 10 this one. That was at 4:38 p.m., from the 11 captain to you. And from the PA was the one at 12 3:11 p.m. So, I'm trying to figure out, why 13 was here at 6:07 p.m.? 14 : That's very odd. I don't 15 recall. I don't remember. 16 MR. : No? 17 : I don't recall. 18 MR. : But that would have had 19 to have been sent from in here? Especially 20 from an officer, right? 21 : That's, yeah. An officer 22 doesn't have the outside email access. I 23 didn't, as a lieutenant. 24 MR. : Right. So he was 25 definitely here at 6:07 p.m.? EFTA00114632

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 : If that came through at that 2 time, that's on the government computer. 3 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 4 initialing and dating that? Sorry. 5 : No problem. 6 MR. : All right. Now, here's 7 the inmate history move. Just to, so, again, 8 close that loop. So, it shows Fernandez, here 9 are his inmate history quarters. And it shows 10 11 : (Indiscernible *01:53:05) 12 MR. : -- that on 8/2/2019, he 13 was brought to the SHU, Z, and then it shows on 14 15 MR. : 8/10, right next to it. 16 MR. : Yeah, I'm just, just give 17 me a second. So, yeah, then it says that 18 8/10/2019, at 0035, that's when he was moved 19 over, I guess, to, what does that stand for? 20 : That's the R&D cells. 21 MR. : So, R01 is the R&D cells? 22 : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : So, that's when he was 24 keyed out of the system, at 0035. Which does 25 correspond to that, 12:35 a.m. EFTA00114633

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 : Yeah, he was probably never 2 punched out, and they, somebody probably ghost- 3 counted him. 4 MR. : Okay. So, do you mind 5 just initialing and dating that? Thank you, 6 sir. All right. Now, we're going to go into 7 these, just while these lieutenant sheets are 8 up, kind of go into some of these counts. All 9 right. So, here we got the 8/9/2019, Federal, 10 or, sorry, Bureau of Prisons count sheet. This 11 is the E-1, correct? 12 : Yes. 13 MR. : And on the E-1, a- II, 14 what does the number 6 show? 15 : 77. 16 MR. : All right. So, 77. 17 Let's go back to this guy and see what the 18 number says. All right. So, it looks like 77. 19 Okay. Now, what does the /5 mean? 20 : 10 South. 21 MR. : 10 South? 22 : Wait, what, I'm sorry, what? 23 MR. : So, this /5? 24 : Yeah, that's 9 South/10 25 South. EFTA00114634

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 MR. : All right. So, on the 2 daily, on the daily lieutenant's log, it shows 3 77/5, and on the E-1, it shows 77 for II and 5 4 for ZB. And we go, we look at the 5 corresponding count slip for ZB. It says 5. 6 For II, it says 77, correct? 7 : Yeah. 8 MR. : All right. Mind just 9 initialing and dating that? 10 MR. : Is that the 5A one? 11 MR. : 5A, yeah. All right. 12 Thank you, sir. Okay. So, now this is where 13 we start getting a little bit into the weeds 14 here. So, this is the 4 p.m. count, correct, 15 on August 9, 2019? 16 : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : All right. So, the E-1 18 shows for II, there is, it says for the census 19 column 76, for the count, 75. And is that 20 because one is -- 21 : One is keyed out, right 22 here. Look. Right here, one is from attorney 23 conference. This Atty right here? 24 MR. : Yep. 25 : Is attorney conference, so EFTA00114635

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 you had one out count and two attorney 2 conference. 3 MR. : So, Epstein is in 4 attorney conference. We got one there. So, 5 inside the SHU should be 75, correct? 6 : Yes. 7 MR. : All right. So, for the 4 8 p.m. count, (Indiscernible *01:56:10) count in 9 progress, it shows there should have been 75 or 10 should, this said 76. What should that have 11 said there? 12 : If he was keyed out -- 13 MR. : So, looking at this E-1 - 14 15 : The E-1 is showing that he 16 was in attorney conference. 17 MR. : Right. So, should this 18 number on the lieutenant's log have said 75 or 19 76, based upon this? Should it have said this, 20 76 number or should it -- 21 : It's whatever this is. 22 MR. : So, this should have said 23 75, as of this -- 24 : Yes. Yes. 25 MR. : All right. Now let's go EFTA00114636

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 look at the corresponding. ZB shows 5. II 75. : 75. MR. : All right. So, that's correct, then? MR. MR. : Yes. : Based upon that? Yep. : All right. Do you mind initialing and dating? MR. : Just a question on that. Keep in mind, you started off the day at 77. : Uh-huh. MR. : (Indiscernible *01:57:07)Efrain Reyes was removed. MR. MR. MR. that? : We'll get into that. Okay. 74. : Yeah, I'm just, what's MR. : Shouldn't this be 74? MR. : I'm just, I just want to know, according to this, cause we can go back to things. MR. : Okay. MR. : All right. So, here is the 8/9/2019. It shows, this is for the 10 EFTA00114637

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 p.m. count. So, this II says 73 and 73, 2 correct? 3 : Yes. 4 MR. : All right. So, the 10 5 p.m. count, good verbal announced. What does 6 that say? 7 : 72. 8 MR. : 72, so the daily 9 lieutenant's log says 72 here, but this says 10 73. 11 : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Okay. Do you know why 13 that would be? 14 : I don't know. There might 15 have been somebody, math was messed up, as far 16 as the lieutenants. As long as this is right, 17 and this jives with the officer's counting in 18 the units, that's what matters. That means we 19 don't have an escape. This, you know, people, 20 I'm not the greatest mathematician in the 21 world. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 : You know, you make a, what's 24 the word, an arithmetic mistake. 25 MR. : Sure, sure. Do you EFTA00114638

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 believe, though, this would have said 73, since 2 this over here says 73, on the next day? 3 : I mean, it should. If there 4 was no movement. 5 MR. : Right. 6 : Between the evening watch 7 and the morning watch. 8 MR. : Right. And we'll go 9 through the numbers, like you were just 10 suggesting, later. I'm just trying to 11 correlate what this says, what this says, with 12 what this says. 13 : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : You know, so they are 15 different numbers here. All right. So, the 16 fact that this says on it? 17 : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : Would that mean that he 19 would have been the one that actually takes the 20 count? 21 : He was the one that took the 22 count. 23 MR. : So, even though, when we 24 go back before you said that, I think you said 25 that Control 1 would have been doing the keys EFTA00114639

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 and all that stuff. 2 : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : And , did I 4 pronounce that? 5 -: 6 MR. would have been, 7 but looking at the actual E-1, it looks like I. 8 actually took the count? 9 : Yeah. Well, at 10:00, 10 though, nobody is coming in or out, except 11 basically whoever is on 2 to 10. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 : And also at 10:00, he's 14 alone. 15 MR. : Oh, he's alone? So, 16 is not there? 17 : Yeah, cause goes home 18 at 10:00. 19 20 21 22 23 p.m. Okay. So, is the one who did the 24 10 p.m. All right. Now we're on the same 25 page. Now we're going to look at the MR. : All right. So, is there. Who was the one on the 4 p.m.? MR. MR. : Okay. did the 4 EFTA00114640

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 1 corresponding count slips. You would have been 2 gone by this count, correct? 3 : Yeah. 4 MR. : All right. So you're 5 gone now. So here's R&D. We get 1. But on 6 the, where would it have shown R&D on this? 7 : Wherever he was keyed out 8 of. 9 MR. : Would it have been this 10 RA? 11 : Yeah. It should have been 12 II. It should have been somewhere over here in 13 this column. 14 MR. : All right. So, we got 15 no, we got a count slip for R&D 1. 16 : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : But nothing on the E-1, 18 saying there was anybody in there. And then 19 we've got II, 73. So, this one says 95 plus 1, 20 on top of the R&D 1, and then we go over to the 21 count slip. Or not, sorry. 22 : 9 South plus 1. 23 MR. : 9 South plus 1. Sorry. 24 : That's why, they ghost- 25 counted him from 9 South in R&D. EFTA00114641

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 MR. : All right. So, if you 2 read this, this one says, for II, says 73 plus 3 1. 4 : Yeah, plus 1. 5 MR. : Does that mean that that 6 actually should be 74, if they're saying plus 7 1? 8 : Unless that's the plus 1, I 9 don't know how they did the numbers. How they 10 did the math. 11 MR. : Okay. Have you ever seen 12 anything like this before? Plus ls? 13 : I've seen them ghost- 14 counting. 15 MR. : Have you seen plus is on 16 our count slips? 17 : No. 18 MR. : All right. What about 19 the fact that -- 20 : Cause honestly, in 21 years, 21 this is the first time I'm seeing a plus 1 on a 22 count slip. 23 MR. : Okay. So you have never 24 seen a plus 1 before? 25 : No. EFTA00114642

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 MR. : What about, have you ever 2 seen anything where every single count slip is 3 crossed off, aside from these two? 4 : Yes. I don't know about 5 these two. I know as, when you're taking the 6 count -- 7 MR. : Yep. 8 : I normally, that's how we 9 get the clear count. 10 MR. : Sure. 11 : When we do the good verbal 12 by, what we do is, we make one line. When the 13 unit officers call 14 MR. : On the E-1, right? 15 : -- we make the one line on 16 the E-1. Once I get all the paper, cause what 17 we'll do is, like, once I have a good verbal, i 18 do the one line and I see every unit has got a 19 good verbal. That's when I tell Control, we 20 got a good verbal count at whatever time. And 21 then we say, awaiting paper. And once internal 22 brings down all the count slips, whoever that 23 person is that's taking the count will have 24 those count slips in front. Not everybody does 25 it. I do it. I would, I'm a crosser. And EFTA00114643

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 what I do is I verify everything and that's 2 when I make my X on the E-1. 3 MR. : Does this suggest 4 anything to you, though, the fact that every 5 one of these count slips is crossed off, aside 6 from R&D, where there is no one actually on the 7 E-1 -- 8 : And SHU. 9 MR. : -- and then SHU, which 10 has the 73 plus 1, on the E-1, it says 73. On 11 the count slip, it says 73 plus 1, but on the 12 daily log, it says 72. Any, does that indicate 13 anything to you, the fact that those aren't 14 crossed out? 15 : The only thing that jumps 16 out at me is that it might have been somebody 17 else that did these two count slips versus 18 these. 19 MR. : Like someone who was 20 taking the count, like ? Would 21 would have been the person that, like, crossed 22 these things out? 23 : I don't recall if he was a 24 crosser or not. 25 MR. : But who, if it wasn't I. EFTA00114644

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 , who would it have been? 2 : At that point in time, it 3 was only him in Control. 4 MR. : All right. And it was 5 : If the lieutenant was in 6 there, she would, her name would be here. 7 MR. : So who would have taken 8 over for you? You said you only worked until 9 10? 10 : I worked until 10. 11 MR. : So who would have taken 12 over at 10? 13 -: relieved me that 14 night. 15 MR. : So, would have 16 relieved you at 10? 17 : And then she worked until 6 18 in the morning. 19 MR. : Okay. So, she didn't 20 start at midnight. She started at 10. Okay. 21 : Yeah. That's why I was 22 saying the Ops Lieutenant, we used to do the 23 two hour differences. 24 MR. : So, is it possible that 25 actually took this count? EFTA00114645

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I'm trying to, may I? 2 MR. : Yeah. Absolutely. Are 3 you able to even tell -- 4 : She did take it. This is 5 her signature. 6 MR. : All right. So, 7 took the 10 p.m. count? 8 -: prepared the count. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 : This is her, this is her 11 loop in there, taking the count. 12 MR. : All right. So, 13 took the 10 p.m. count. Okay. And then, this 14 is where, so, can you tell from this E-1 on 15 August 10, 2019, at the 12 a.m. 16 : 3, this is 3:40. 17 MR. : Sorry. Oh, no, no, no. 18 So, you're saying the 12 a.m. count, 19 took? 20 : Yes. 21 MR. : All right. Not the 10 22 p.m.? 23 : The 10 p.m., did by 24 himself. 25 MR. -: took, so, forget EFTA00114646

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that. 2 : I'm sorry, the time is, I 3 mean. 4 MR. : Yeah, absolutely. So, 5 did the 10 p.m., the ones that have the 6 count slips with the 9 South plus 1, and the 73 7 plus 1. did the 12 a.m. count. 8 : 12, yeah. 9 MR. : And the 12 a.m. count is 10 the one where it goes from the E-1 at 10 p.m., 11 the day before, with 73, the 12 a.m. E-1, is 12 72, and now let's go to the corresponding count 13 slips. II, what's the number on that? 14 : 73. 15 MR. : 73. So the count slip 16 says 73 for 12 a.m., but the E-1 says 72. 17 : Yeah. 18 MR. : Can you think of why that 19 would be? 20 : Like I said, the only thing 21 that comes to mind is a ghost count. 22 MR. : Okay. Then the RA still 23 says 1, though. Can you ghost count someone if 24 they're putting in count slips for 1? 25 : No, cause then there would EFTA00114647

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 be, it would be off by plus I. 2 MR. : And then R&D now has 1 in 3 there, correct? 4 : One, yeah. 5 MR. : So, 72 in II, 1 in RA. 6 : This is, this is jiving with 7 this. That's working. 8 MR. : Now it's working, here it 9 wasn't. 10 : From what I understand. 11 From what I'm, the way I'm reading it. 12 MR. : Right. Have you ever 13 seen anything like this before? 14 : I have never seen plus is 15 written on the count slip. 16 MR. : Plus, what about count 17 slips that aren't corresponding with what's -- 18 : I have seen staff, but 19 normally, you have, you call that unit officer 20 and be, like, hey, I need a new count slip. 21 The count slip is wrong. That I have seen. 22 MR. : All right. 23 : Plus is, I have never seen. 24 I have never seen anybody write a plus 1 on a 25 count slip. EFTA00114648

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 MR. : Okay. And then 3 a.m. 2 again is a Does this mean that -- 3 : Cause he's alone, yeah. A 4 lieutenant only has to do one count on a shift. 5 MR. : Sure. And is there any 6 indication that anybody on here did anything, 7 other than 8 : No. That's his -- 9 MR. : Okay. And then again, 10 says 72, 72. Z-- 11 : ZB? 12 MR. : ZB says 5. And RA says 1 13 and 1. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : And again, there are the 16 corresponding count slips now. The count slips 17 for II do say 72, and ZB says 5, and the RA 18 says 1. Same thing with the -- 19 : 5 a.m. 20 MR. : -- the 5 a.m. count. 21 Same deal. We don't need to go into the rest 22 of them for this. So, does this indicate to 23 you for all, does this indicate anything to you 24 for all of this? Does it indicate that they 25 weren't conducting their counts at all? Let's EFTA00114649

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 take this out of the picture and let's directly 2 focus on the E-1 and the count slips here. The 3 fact that at the 10 p.m. count, they're listed 4 73. The count slip says 73 plus 1. And then 5 the 12 a.m. says 72. Count slip says 73. And 6 then on the daily lieutenant's log, the guy, 7 Fernandez, is keyed out at 035 hours, because 8 he was keyed into the SHU the whole time. 9 : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : And then everything is, 11 from that point forward, is corrected to 72. 12 So he was never present in the SHU. We have 13 got the 10 p.m. and the 12 a.m. counts, we both 14 have count slips for, saying that he's there in 15 RA, and somehow, their numbers, there is only 16 72 people in the SHU. So the count slips are 17 showing 73 people. There's only 72 people in 18 there. The E-1 at 10 p.m. says 73, even though 19 there's only 72 people in there. 20 : Two. 21 MR. : The E-1 at midnight does 22 show 72, but that's only because at 12:35 -- 23 : It was corrected. 24 MR. : It was corrected. And 25 the count slip says 73, although there were EFTA00114650

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 1 only 72 people in there. Does that indicate to 2 you that the people in the SHU were just 3 basically going off of what the E-1 should have 4 said, versus counting it themselves? 5 : It's possible. I mean, I 6 know that they are charged with falsifying 7 documents. 8 MR. : Yep. 9 : I know they say that they 10 did not conduct a count, so I guess so. I 11 guess that's what they, I don't know. 12 MR. : How would have they 13 gotten the number 73? So, 73 is what is on the 14 E-1. 15 : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : There is only 72 people 17 in the SHU. But they're listing 73 on the 18 count slip. 19 : It could have been easily, 20 in my opinion, it could have been easily as 21 they were going off of the SHU locator, and the 22 locator wasn't corrected. 23 MR. : What's the SHU locator? 24 : It's basically a chart with 25 the cell assignments and the inmates names and EFTA00114651

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 numbers written in it. So, basically, you have 2 what inmates are in where. Right? 3 MR. : So, it's like a document? 4 : It's not, like, an official 5 BOP thing. It's something that was brought, 6 it's like made in Word. It's basically like, 7 almost like a blueprint. But it's of, it will 8 have the cells, and it will state what names, 9 like, the SHU staff use it to also, when 10 they're doing the showers, right, they'll mark 11 off who got their showers. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 : And everything like that. 14 MR. : Is that something that 15 only the SHU staff has? 16 : That's only, that's 17 upstairs. Unless you're -- 18 MR. : Does the E-1 people, does 19 Control have access to that? 20 : Not everybody has access to 21 a PPE-1. 22 MR. : So, the thing, though, 23 that, if they're using this thing that you 24 just, what did you call it again? 25 : The locator. EFTA00114652

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 MR. : So, if they're, the SHU 2 staff is using a locator, does the people in 3 Control have access to that locator? 4 : Not to the locator, no. 5 That's a SHU thing. 6 MR. : All right. And then some 7 people in the SHU could have had access to, 8 what are the people in the Control utilizing? 9 : Control have the E-1 access. 10 Lieutenants have an E-1 access. 11 MR. : All right. 12 : Not everybody has full 13 Sentry access. 14 MR. : All right. So, going to 15 this 10 p.m. count, do you know if, so who, on 16 the II count slip, it says and Noel, 17 correct? 18 : That's definitely 19 Yeah, Noel, all right. I don't know what I'm 20 looking at. I'm sorry. I don't have my 21 readers. 22 MR. : Sure. 23 : N-O-E-L, yeah. 24 MR. : Do you know if either of 25 these people would have had access to this E-1 EFTA00114653

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 data? it. : I do not know if they had MR. : You don't know? : I do not know. MR. : Okay. : Computer Services would have a record of who has access to what on Sentry. MR. : All right. Fair enough. And do you know anything about them falsifying their counts? : I do not. MR. : No? : Like I said, I only know what I have read and what I hear. MR. : Okay. And what have you heard? : The same thing that you, they're being charged with ringing (Indiscernible *02:10:43). I heard that they were sleeping and they didn't count and -- MR. : Had you heard at all that either the 4 p.m. or the 10 p.m. counts weren't conducted? : No. I heard the overnight EFTA00114654

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 counts. 2 MR. : All right. So just the 3 midnight, 3, and 5? 4 : Yes. 5 MR. : But you hadn't heard 6 about the 4 or 10? 7 : I was told that at 10:00, 8 not that I was told, from what I heard, at 9 10:00, he was alive. 10 MR. : Okay. Again, though, 11 going back to this lieutenant -- 12 : Do you want me to sign this? 13 MR. : Yeah. I'm going to have 14 you do that now. Going back to these 15 lieutenant logs, do you know why, how that 16 could be off, too, though, if the E-1 and the 17 count slips are all saying 73 at 10 p.m., why 18 would they be writing 72 here? 19 : Honestly, I don't know. 20 Like I said, some people are better in math 21 than others. It could be just a simple 22 arithmetic mistake. 23 MR. : But do you think that 24 being that it came over as 73, 25 is the one that corrected Fernandez being out, EFTA00114655

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 and then she doesn't send the activities report 2 daily log out until 9:30 a.m. Do you think 3 that she would have gone back in there and 4 maybe she just -- 5 : I don't know. I don't know. 6 MR. : Would have she been 7 authorized to do that? 8 : No. I don't know. I can't 9 answer that question. I have, I'm not -- 10 MR. : But you had mentioned 11 that people can go in and (Indiscernible 12 *02:11:57). 13 : It can be done. You can go 14 back and do it. 15 MR. : Now, should she have? 16 : No. Not that I know, unless 17 she saw that, unless she was trying to make the 18 correction, to make sure that everything was 19 right with the count. 20 MR. : And that's what I mean. 21 : Which we, you know, we all 22 try to look, you know, to better, at the end of 23 the day, remember, accountability is the most 24 important thing. 25 MR. : Yeah, yeah. EFTA00114656

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 : So, we would try to make 2 sure that it's there, and it's not to, like, 3 cover up or anything like that, cause at this 4 point in time, nothing was wrong. So, you're 5 not covering up anything. And at that point in 6 time, once that happened in the morning, she 7 wouldn't have been able to do this anyway, 8 cause the FBI was already here, taking 9 everything. 10 MR. : Well, if someone says 11 that at 9:30, well, this is all, this is all 12 done electronically, right? She sent this out 13 electronically? 14 : You get, have to email that, 15 yes. 16 MR. : Right. And is it my 17 understanding that this is actually created in, 18 like, a Word document, that is in a shared 19 folder? 20 : It's in the shared folder. 21 It's in, but only lieutenants have access to 22 that. 23 MR. : Right. 24 : And the captain. 25 MR. : So, if someone is in that EFTA00114657

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 shared folder, and they can tell, someone is 2 modifying that thing right now, and it's at, 3 like, 9:30. 4 : Oh, well, that's the thing. 5 But if there is, only one person can be in 6 there at the time. 7 MR. : Right. 8 : If I try to go into that log 9 program and another lieutenant was on it, I 10 wouldn't be able to. 11 MR. : Right. So, if the 12 captain notices that someone is in there, 13 modifying that log -- 14 : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : -- at that time, is that 16 okay? 17 : I'm sure that would bring, 18 like, flag something. The captain would be, 19 like, what's going on? 20 MR. : Right. 21 : Yeah. 22 MR. : But, okay. But if you 23 were , and you were the one 24 modifying this thing, and you are going back 25 and basically, you know, changing this stuff, EFTA00114658

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 do you think that would be acceptable? Or 2 should have she left it as it was and just left 3 her one saying 73, I corrected it, brought it 4 back to 72 and left the day before, the August 5 9th date alone and just stuck with August 10th? 6 : I believe so. 7 MR. : You believe she should 8 have just stuck with August 10th? 9 : I do my own things. 10 MR. : Right. 11 : It's not my job to correct 12 another lieutenant. 13 MR. : All right. And do you 14 believe there would be something wrong with her 15 doing that, though? Going back to August 9th 16 and changing things? 17 : No. Because it was past 18 practice. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 : You know, it's something 21 that we have always done that, you know, from 22 the very first time. I personally don't like 23 correcting other people. 24 MR. : All right. 25 MR. : But you mentioned it would EFTA00114659

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 have been that, if you piggyback off each 2 other. 3 : Yeah. 4 MR. : Something came up. She 5 (Indiscernible *02:14:29). 6 : Like I said, like, for 7 instance, I go home at 10, right? She is 8 relieving me at 10, but there is still going to 9 be a good verbal and a clear count after I'm 10 gone. 11 MR. : And that's true. 12 : But then she would have to 13 go -- 14 MR. : She's actually starting 15 on August 9th. 16 : She would have to be going 17 back into mine in order to put the, clear the 18 count, because she can't put 10:30 good verbal 19 and 10:45 clear count on her log, cause it's 20 after midnight. Does that make sense? So, she 21 will go, like, things like that, you piggyback. 22 Just like if, like, we end up, we do the two 23 hour relief thing, you know, you got to, you 24 piggyback, but otherwise, I don't go back to, 25 like, correct another person. That's me, EFTA00114660

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 personally. 2 MR. : But she did start on 3 August 9th, and what you're saying is you don't 4 find it problematic that she did correct 5 something? You don't think there's anything 6 wrong with it? You just wouldn't have done it? 7 : I wouldn't have done it 8 personally. 9 MR. : Right. 10 : But I don't think there's 11 nothing wrong with what she did. 12 MR. : Did you want to talk 13 about these anymore, about the lieutenant logs? 14 MR. : No. We covered it. 15 MR. : All right. Okay. 16 : I don't know if there is a 17 certain order I'm supposed to -- 18 MR. : No, yeah, I just keep it, 19 I kept them in order. They're all in order of 20 the counts. Thank you for initialing and 21 signing everything. And we had to go past 22 that, so, this would be, thank you, sir. 23 : You're welcome. 24 MR. : This is the last thing we 25 have got. All right. So, we have only got two EFTA00114661

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 more documents or something. So, these are 2 the, what are these? 3 : These are the round sheets. 4 MR. : So, is this L tier? 5 Would that be where Epstein was housed for 6 8/9/2019, in the SHU? 7 : Yes. 8 MR. : All right. And did you 9 say you had heard that these were not 10 conducted? 11 : Well, like, for instance, 12 case in point, I don't know who this is, but I 13 wouldn't have, when I made rounds, unless he 14 made rounds around this time, or prior to this 15 time, these were never finished. 16 MR. : Okay. So, this person, 17 if you didn't go do the round, who, do you 18 believe, would have gone in and actually signed 19 off on that? 20 : It would be the either/or. 21 I don't recognize -- 22 MR. : Does that look like -- 23 : I know this is me. 24 MR. : Okay. So, you actually 25 did a round in there? EFTA00114662

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 : I did the rounds somewhere, 2 no, wait a minute, is this me? 3 MR. : I thought you said 4 did the round. 5 -: did make the round in 6 SHU. I don't know why I'm, I don't know why my 7 signature is on here. 8 MR. : That is your signature, 9 though? 10 : It looks like my MC. But I 11 didn't make rounds in SHU. I know that. I 12 didn't make the evening watch rounds. 13 MR. : Shoot. I didn't print 14 off the list for the lieutenants, cause 15 there's, but that is your signature on there? 16 : That looks like my MC. 17 MR. : And would have you had to 18 have gone to the actual SHU to do that? 19 : Yes, I would have had to 20 have, and I didn't make rounds up there that 21 night. 22 MR. : Any idea how that would 23 have gotten on there, if you didn't, you 24 weren't in there? 25 : No. No. I don't. EFTA00114663

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 MR. : Do you know if anyone 2 asked you after the fact to sign off on 3 something? 4 : Not necessarily. No. But I 5 know I didn't make rounds up there, but that 6 looks like my MC. And this is the first I'm 7 seeing this. 8 MR. : Yeah. It does look 9 exactly like what you have been doing. I 10 didn't even notice that before. So, this is 11 your signature on the 8/9/2019 -- 12 : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : -- 30 minute check sheet, 14 but you did not visit the SHU on August 9th? 15 : No. I did not make rounds. 16 My Activities Lieutenant made rounds that 17 night. 18 MR. : Would it have anything to 19 do with the fact that she was an Acting 20 Activities Lieutenant? 21 : I mean, no, because I don't 22 remember, I don't recall signing the round 23 sheet for that shift. 24 MR. : Cause it looks like all 25 of, it looks like all of them are you, right? EFTA00114664

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 : Well, some, one thing right 2 here, too, it's not signed off on here, either. 3 MR. : So the bottom aren't 4 signed off on. Well, who -- 5 : The morning watch went, upon 6 coming in, oh, you know what? I'm 7 not, I don't remember doing it, but the only 8 thing I could think of is when it gets picked 9 up, but the thing is, this don't get picked up, 10 it don't get sent down until morning watch. 11 So, I don't, I don't remember, I really don't 12 remember signing that. But I really don't 13 remember signing that, and it looks like the 14 morning watch lieutenant didn't sign, either. 15 Cause then if you look at this, I wouldn't have 16 signed, if I saw rounds not done. Remember, I 17 said that earlier. 18 MR. : So does this at all look 19 like it could have been, like, cut and paste or 20 why, why would that be modified? 21 : I don't know. 22 MR. : Do you have any reason to 23 believe that that is not your signature? 24 : I don't recall signing it, 25 but that looks like my MC. I always initial. EFTA00114665

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 I don't ever fully sign. I always do the MC, 2 as you can see, I do the MC in the circle. 3 Yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't 4 recall. I don't recall signing it, but that is 5 my signature. I didn't make rounds. The only 6 thing I could, I could assume is maybe 7 asked me to sign because she made the round, 8 but she is not an actual lieutenant. But I 9 don't recall. 10 MR. : But would have she had, 11 like, literally have been allowed to bring, 12 take the -- 13 : No. No. That's the thing. 14 They can't leave the unit until morning watch. 15 This gets sent down for the morning watch. 16 MR. : All right. 17 : Like, when came in 18 for Saturday morning watch -- 19 MR. : Uh-huh. 20 : -- this, after midnight, 21 between 11:30 and 12 is the last round for the 22 evening shift. Then this gets sent out. 23 That's why I'm looking at this, look, it's on 24 this one. It's on this one, but where is it 25 here? It's not here. It's not here. So, EFTA00114666

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 what, was one tier, two tiers done and not the 2 other? There's six tiers up there. 3 MR. : And they're all for 4 8/9/2019? So, we got some kind of discrepancy 5 going on with these. 6 : I don't remember signing 7 that. 8 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:21:12). 9 MR. : And you would, you would 10 have signed it before 10 p.m.? Before you 11 left? 12 : Yeah. Before I left. 13 MR. : So you don't remember 14 ever visiting the SHU? 15 : I might have been up in the 16 SHU, like, to move an inmate or whatever have 17 you, or like, to lock somebody up, but I don't 18 even remember if I did or not, honestly. I 19 don't remember. 20 MR. : Do you believe that you 21 didn't? 22 : I don't remember signing it. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 : I do not remember signing 25 the round sheet and I know made rounds EFTA00114667

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 that night. 2 MR. : So, what, I guess what 3 I'm asking is, what is this? So, this one 4 still says 8/9, but for ZB -- 5 : That's 10 South. 6 MR. : But 10 South, you got to 7 go through the SHU to get to 10 South. 8 : Yes. 9 MR. : Who is that person? 10 : I'm not sure. I don't know. 11 I don't recognize it. It could be 12 It looks like an R and something else. 13 MR. : So, do you believe that 14 in some way, then, do you believe that you did 15 not sign the 8/9/2019 count sheet? 16 : I don't remember signing it. 17 MR. : Right. Right. 18 : I could have very well 19 MR. : I guess what I'm asking 20 is, like, do we now have to look into, oh, 21 crap, this stuff might have been, like, copied 22 and pasted and put onto something else? 23 : I don't know. Well, 24 actually, I don't know. I can't answer that 25 question. I just don't, I do not, I can tell EFTA00114668

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 you I do not remember signing it, but I do 2 remember, I did not make rounds in SHU. I 3 don't remember signing it. I don't. 4 MR. : All right. 5 : But that is, I can't, that's 6 my MC. 7 MR. : All right. So, your 8 signature is on these, but you don't recall 9 signing it, and you did not do rounds? 10 : I did not make the round in 11 SHU. 12 MR. : So, if you didn't do a 13 round in SHU, were you off, could have you 14 signed it? 15 : What do you mean? Wait, I'm 16 17 MR. : So, you signed it, saying 18 that you did a round, but you didn't actually 19 do a round? 20 : I didn't make the rounds in 21 SHU. And I don't remember signing this. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 : Could I have signed it, 24 like, hey, you missed a signature? Possibly. 25 But I don't remember signing it. Cause I know EFTA00114669

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 I didn't make rounds that night. 2 MR. : Right. So, your 3 signature is on there, saying you did a round, 4 but you did not do rounds? 5 : Huh-uh. But I didn't, I 6 wasn't there. I didn't make the round in SHU. 7 MR. : Why do you clearly remember 8 that you didn't go in the SHU that night? 9 : I'm sorry? 10 MR. : Why do you remember that you 11 never went -- 12 : Because I was trying to hire 13 overtime for the morning watch shift most of 14 the night. At that point in time, with how 15 short we were lieutenants, and how short we 16 were staffed, an Operations Lieutenant would 17 spend at least four hours a shift, trying to 18 just fill the overtime. And I remember, cause 19 I even, I think, if I recall correctly, I 20 remember, I even mandated Noel to work in SHU 21 that night, for the overnight. 22 MR. : So you think you spent most 23 of the time in the office, trying to -- 24 : Yes. I was doing the 25 roster, trying to fill the roster when EFTA00114670

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 said, hey, I got it, Lou. I'll take Epstein 2 upstairs, the night before. 3 MR. : Do you think anyone could 4 have filled your signature in? 5 : Unless, unless they traced 6 it. 7 MR. : But that does appear to 8 be your signature? 9 : It's my MC, but it doesn't 10 look the same on all of them, like, this one, 11 it looks a little different than here. 12 MR. : But, for, I guess, the 13 next person to come in and sign would have been 14 this individual. 15 : That's 16 MR. -: 17 : Yeah. 18 MR. : So, do you have any 19 reason to believe that would have 20 signed for you? 21 : No. No. 22 MR. : If she noticed that this 23 block was empty? 24 : No. No. 25 MR. : So you don't believe EFTA00114671

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 would have done that? : No. I don't believe 198 3 would have done that at all. 4 MR. : So you do believe that 5 this is your signature? 6 : I believe it's my signature, 7 but I just don't remember signing that. I 8 don't. 9 MR. : And you don't remember 10 even going to the SHU. 11 : I didn't make rounds that 12 evening, no. 13 MR. : And you don't remember 14 actually even going into the SHU that -- 15 : Not that I recall. No. 16 MR. : So that's (Indiscernible 17 *02:25:05) like how could have your signature 18 got on there? 19 : You would have to, you would 20 have to, you would have to review the cameras, 21 but I don't recall signing this paper. And I 22 know I didn't make rounds, because even when 23 went in with you guys in the FBI and the AUSA, 24 she even told me name before I even 25 said it. I said, my Activities Lieutenant made EFTA00114672

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 rounds that night in SHU, and she said, that's 2 Acting Lieutenant, II . I 3 said, you are, I said, correct. I still 4 recall, I recall that interview. 5 MR. : So, because this has such 6 a high level focus now -- 7 : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : -- this is something that 9 is actually, unfortunately, brand-new to us -- 10 : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : -- we're going to have to 12 somehow resolve that. 13 : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : Do you have any, any kind 15 of explanation to how that could have happened 16 then? You didn't do rounds in SHU. You never 17 even went in the SHU, and you could only sign 18 this document from within the SHU. 19 : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : And this is the documents 21 that were obtained. 22 : No, this could get signed in 23 the lieutenant's office, after it's collected. 24 MR. : All right, so this could 25 have been collected -- EFTA00114673

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 : Every night, this gets, the 2 six round sheets gets sent down to the 3 lieutenant's office. 4 MR. : So, do you think -- 5 : That might have been when I 6 signed it, but this would have, I wasn't here 7 on morning watch. 8 MR. : What about on August 10th, 9 when you did come back from the hospital? You 10 came back, right, on August 10th? 11 : Yeah. I was here the whole 12 day. I didn't go home. I don't remember 13 exactly, but I know it was, like, around 4:00 14 ish, 5:00 ish, when I got home, when I left. 15 MR. : So, I mean, it doesn't 16 look like, these things look like they were 17 taken right away, you know? 18 : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : After Noel -- 20 : That might have very well 21 been what happened. 22 MR. : That you signed it the 23 next day? 24 : I might have signed it when 25 it was sitting on the lieutenant's office pile. EFTA00114674