101 1 the screen. 2 MR. : Right next to the screen. 3 MR. It wasn't blocking the 4 screen. It was next to the screen. 5 MR. Is it hanging on the PC? 6 MR. Yeah. 7 MR. So, not the monitor -- 8 MR. Oh, no. 9 MR. -- but the actual computer 10 itself. 11 MR. Yeah, like on the side. 12 MR. And not only, obviously, 13 that's a big orange document, was it the same 14 size as what we're showing you or is that 15 enlarged? 16 MR. It was -- 17 MR. The same size as -- 18 MR. -- the same exact -. 19 MR. -- as a regular piece of 20 paper. 21 MR. That, but a little bright 22 orange paper with black letter. 23 MR. So roughly 11" by 12" or 24 13" or whatever those are. Okay. And so 25 obviously that's a notice for everyone. Do you EFTA00116160

102 1 remember on August 9th though specifically 2 talking with anyone about conducting rounds on 3 Epstein? 4 MR. It was something we spoke 5 about every day. 6 MR. Oh, you did. 7 MR. Like -- 8 MR. There were conversations, 9 "Make sure you -." 10 MR. -- "Hey, look, this guy is 11 still here. He's right there," you know, 12 "Let's make sure -." 13 MR. Even though he was in 14 attorney conference though? 15 MR. No. Make sure we're doing 16 rounds. And everybody spoke about it, "Make 17 sure we're doing round, make sure we're doing 18 rounds." 19 MR. So even though he's gone 20 for the majority of your day at least, was that 21 something, you know, when you were like leaving 22 your shift, would you have said, "Hey, make 23 sure 24 MR. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 25 MR. -- you know, for God, EFTA00116161

103 1 make sure." 2 MR. Hell yeah. And, everybody 3 already got like from the Warden, Lieutenants, 4 "Hey, make sure you guys do your rounds." 5 MR. So that was going to be 6 my next question. So, who else was instructing 7 you on doing rounds and specifically doing 8 rounds on Epstein? 9 MR. Everybody. 10 MR. And can you remember -- 11 MR. So -. 12 MR. -- any specific direction 13 coming from anyone? 14 MR. So, Warden used to 15 walk around a lot in SHU and he say, "Hey, make 16 sure you guys keep an eye on him," pretty much 17 directly, but in the indirectly telling us to 18 do our job. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. Same thing with Lieutenant 21 He used to walk around, "Hey guys, make 22 sure you do your rounds." And, you know, 23 Lieutenant the same thing, "Hey, make 24 sure you guys do rounds." 25 MR. Now being that you were EFTA00116162

104 1 the OIC and was the SHU Lieutenant, can 2 you remember any specific conversations with 3 him with regard to Epstein and doing rounds or 4 anything? 5 MR. Well, he used to tell us 6 just, "Make sure you're on top of it. 7 MR. Do you know from the time 8 that Reyes was placed with on July 30th and the 9 need for Epstein to be placed with an inmate, a 10 cell mate. Can you recall any conversations 11 specifically with with regards to Epstein? 12 MR. I think he told us to put 13 him in with Reyes. Uh-huh. 14 MR. And again, do you know 15 why he was - Reyes was chosen? Now, I know you 16 said he was an older gentleman 17 MR. Right. 18 MR. -- and he had a cane or 19 something like that, but I mean, you -- 20 MR. So I think -. 21 MR. : -- you don't know 22 anything other than the fact that Psychology 23 MR.M: Psychology probably 24 recommended him or they looked through the 25 whole SHU roster and felt he was probably the EFTA00116163

105 1 safest person to put him with. 2 MR. Okay. And do you know if 3 people were conducting rounds on Epstein like 4 your sign said? Because you weren't there when 5 he was there, so do you know if -. 6 MR. So, after 2 o'clock, they 7 should have been conducting rounds. 8 MR. Right. 9 MR. And I don't remember - 10 MR. Well, he would get back 11 around like 8 o'clock, right? 12 MR. Right. I don't -- 13 MR. So, like 8:00 p.m. on -. 14 MR. -- remember if we started 15 showers or not going on but they should - 16 regardless while he was there or not, they 17 should have still continued the rounds. 18 MR. And I know that they 19 should have, but do you know if they were. 20 MR. I can't say, "Yes, they 21 did," or, "No, they did not. 22 MR. : But whenever you were 23 there, they were being done? 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. Okay. EFTA00116164

106 1 MR. e were all over the place. 2 MR. All right. So this is 3 where it's going to get a little complicated, 4 so just bear with me. I'm going to show you 5 these count slips from August 9th up until 6 midnight of August 10th. I'm just going to 7 have you help - this is where, remember, I said 8 I was going to help you, you know, put this 9 puzzle together. Believe we already know the 10 answers but I don't want to give you the 11 answers in fear that I'm wrong. So this is 12 from the 5:00 a.m. count to the midnight count 13 and I want to show you the Lieutenant's log 14 which, where is that? So here's the 15 Lieutenant's log. And we didn't print out that 16 paper that I made, did I? 17 MR. Which one? 18 MR. The one that I drafted 19 yesterday and said, "Make sure we print this 20 out." All right, so, we'll just start with 21 8:00 a.m., since that's when you came in, so we 22 can actually - the reason I was showing you the 23 5:00 a.m. is because I really wanted you to 24 notice - okay, two. Is ZA the SHU? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00116165

107 1 MR. : And so 77 is the total 2 count in the SHU for inmates? 3 MR. Correct. 4 MR. Then we look back at 5 these count slips and we see - sorry I'm 6 looking over you, but, ZA says -. 7 MR. Thomas. 8 MR. : And at 10:00 it says, 9 "77," correct? 10 MR. Yes. 11 MR. : all right. So we'll put 12 that here. It says on the Lieutenant's log, 13 "77," -- 14 MR. 77, yes. 15 MR. : -- correct? All right. 16 So now where are we at? We're at the 4:00 p.m. 17 count. 18 MR. 4:00 p.m., yes. 19 MR. Correct? So for ZA, it 20 shows 76 total, right? 21 MR. Yes. 22 MR. One in attorney client, 23 brings it down to 75. 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. So what should the count EFTA00116166

108 1 slip reflect then? 2 MR. At this time? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. The count, the physical 5 bodies in SHU. 6 MR. Okay. So it should 7 reflect -- 8 MR. 75. 9 MR. -- 75. Okay, great. So 10 here where ZA, ZA shows 75, correct? 11 MR. Yes. 12 MR. Okay. Now we're looking 13 at 10:00 p.m. ZA says 73, right? 73 total 14 bodies it says at 10:00 p.m.? Now the ZA - 15 where is it? ZA count slip says, "73 plus 1." 16 First, can you think of any reason why it would 17 say, "Plus 1?" 18 MR It shouldn't say, "Plus 19 unless somebody came in at night. 20 MR. Z: Okay. 21 MR. But regardless, that 22 shouldn't be like that, it should be 74. 23 MR. Okay. 24 MR. Not 73 plus 1. 25 MR. So this is where you're EFTA00116167

109 1 going to start getting interested. So at 2 midnight, the ZA count says, "72." "72," 3 right? So the count slip says, "73." Now, 4 reviewing this, the E-1 says, "72," same 5 institutional count, says, "72," the count slip 6 still says, "73." Now let's look at this. And 7 granted, you just told us this could have been 8 done later in the day so maybe this wasn't done 9 at the time. 10 MR. By that time, it should 11 have been done. 12 MR. So 8:00 a.m. So we have 13 these different places where it says these 14 people were moved. So the 8:30 a.m., do you 15 agree that inmate Reyes was removed and it 16 brings the count down to 76? 17 MR. Yes. 18 MR. All right. So we go down 19 to 75. is placed on dry cell from 20 ZA. 21 MR. Okay. 22 MR. Moves it down to -- 23 MR. 75. 24 MR. -- 75. All right. So 25 that 4:00 should have said - the 4:00 p.m. EFTA00116168

110 1 count should have said -. 2 MR. : Should have been 75. Which 3 is 75. 4 MR. Right. But, shouldn't 5 have this said, "75?" 6 MR. No. 7 MR. Because the 75, one 8 person in attorney, that should be 74, right? 9 MR. ■ 10 76. So now 11 MR. • : Yes. So this is fine at : But that, isn't that 12 referring to Epstein being in attorney? 13 MR. Yes. 14 MR. So, shouldn't this say 75 15 based upon this? 16 MR. Reyes was moved before that. 17 MR. Unless -. 18 MR. : So this is at 3:15, the 19 count goes down to 75, so shouldn't this E-1 20 say 75 here? 21 MR. No, because this guy could 22 have still been doing dry cell in SHU. 23 MR. Okay. 24 MR. Meaning, dry cell, he's 25 inside a cell. The water is off, he doesn't EFTA00116169

111 1 have any clothes. He uses the bathroom inside 2 of SHU. 3 MR. So -. 4 MR. : Let me keep my thought. 5 All right. So then this brings it down. So 6 3:15, now we go over to - brings it down to 74 7 here, IIIIIIIIII Brings that count 8 (Indiscernible *01:20:17) 74. 9 MR. He got kicked out. 10 MR. : Reid gets 73. 11 MR. He got kicked out. 12 MR. • goes down to 71. 13 MR. Another one -. 14 MR. • comes in, goes to 15 72. That's at 8:28 p.m. So 72 is the count at 16 8:28 p.m. ZA still says 73. Now let's look at 17 that. It says now, R&D now has one in it. 18 Fernandez is in R&D dry cell. It actually 19 doesn't even say he's on it in this thing. 20 MR. No. 21 MR. But, ZA says, "73," 22 there's no one for that one, correct? 23 MR. Right. 24 MR. And this is where it 25 says, "73 plus 1." Would the thought maybe EFTA00116170

112 1 saying, "73 plus 1," that one being Fernandez 2 on dry cell and they're using the institutional 3 count 73? 4 MR. Should have been, if he's 5 in dry cell in SHU, he's counted inside of SHU. 6 MR. Right. So -. 7 MR. If he's not in SHU, then he 8 shouldn't be counted. 9 MR. : So he's not in SHU. 10 MR. Correct. So that means, 11 the count should have been 73. 12 MR. And should have that 13 count been changed way back here if he's not in 14 SHU? Should have this, like we talked about, 15 this 4:00 p.m. -- 16 MR. Yes. 17 MR. -- should have said 75? 18 MR. Correct. 19 MR. And why is that? 20 MR. You count physical bodies. 21 MR. Physical bodies. You 22 don't count ghost count or you don't count 23 people that aren't in your -. 24 MR. No. if you don't see the 25 flesh and it's a stand up count, so every EFTA00116171

113 1 person or inmate, whether it's in SHU or in a 2 unit, they have to stand up for the count and 3 you verify it, one, two, three, four, five, 4 six, then the person behind you has to verify 5 that count. 6 All right, and so what is 7 your -. 8 MR. If it's a body there, he 9 gets counted. 10 MR. What is your opinion then 11 if in fact that 3:15, Fernandez is moved out of 12 the SHU and placed -- 13 MR. Then the count just 14 dropped. 15 MR. -- and placed into - 16 right. But the fact that the count slip for ZA 17 matches still what the E-1 says. Does that 18 tell you anything about if the count was 19 conducted or not? 20 It should have been - and 21 everything is should have. So -- 22 MR. So that should have said 23 - the 4:00 p.m. count should have in fact, if 24 Fernandez isn't in there, that should have 25 actually said, "74," correct? EFTA00116172

114 1 MR. Yes. 2 MR. So does that tell you 3 that they did or did not conduct the count in 4 the SHU? 5 MR. : If they counted 75 physical 6 bodies, then that's a good count. 7 MR. Right. 8 MR. But now, if there is not 75 9 physical bodies in the SHU, then they went off 10 whatever it is they were going off and verified 11 it with this paper right here, which not 12 everybody has access to it. This is the E-1 13 that we keep count on. 14 MR. So would the SHU people 15 that are in the SHU, would they have access to 16 know what the count was for this E-1, what 17 they're utilizing for that count? 18 MR. No. Unless somebody says, 19 "Hey, you're missing one, your count is 75." 20 MR. So the only way someone 21 in the SHU would be able to actually know what 22 number to provide is by actually doing the 23 count? 24 MR. orrect. 25 MR. Really? All right. So EFTA00116173

115 1 if we know that Fernandez is now not in the 2 SHU, how are they coming up with that 75 number 3 and for 4:00 p.m. and then as well as 10:00 4 p.m., they're coming up with a wrong number and 5 again at midnight, they're writing down the 6 wrong number. They're writing down the number 7 that they think the institutional count is, but 8 there's not that many people that are actually 9 in SHU. How do we explain that? 10 MR. So, the only thing I can 11 think of is they put - they locked somebody up 12 between the 4 o'clock count and the 10 o'clock 13 count meaning somebody from the unit did 14 something wrong and they ended up in the 15 Special Housing Unit. So that's how the 16 numbers would be different. 17 MR. So if we have information 18 that -. 19 MR. And - sorry to interrupt. 20 MR. : No, go ahead. 21 MR. Again, everybody is human 22 and everybody makes mistakes, unless somebody 23 write in the log missed one inmate going from a 24 unit out or leaving from SHU to a unit. 25 MR. Well, that's exactly EFTA00116174

116 2 out of the 3 until this 4 MR. 5 cell where? 6 MR. - 1 right. So at 3:15, Fernandez was never keyed SHU. He wasn't keyed out of the SHU count at midnight. So he was placed in dry So, at - he was placed in 7 dry cell at - are R&D and RA the same thing? 8 9 MR. ■ MR. 10 what it is that 11 *01:25:01) -- 12 13 14 15 16 MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. 17 read it, so. Okay. That's right. Yeah, can you just read you showed (Indiscernible Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. ■ -- no -- Okay. Sorry. -- I mean, you should 18 MR. Just, I pointed to the line 19 that states, on the day watch for Friday, 20 August 9th, there's a line that says, "Inmate 21 Fernandez, 86824054 on dry cell with staff 22 watch in R&D." Is R- Agent asked a question. 23 MR. a So, with this knowledge 24 and now also, with like I showed you - or first 25 of all, are count slips for RA and R&D, are EFTA00116175

117 1 they the same thing? 2 MR. Well it should be just R&D. 3 There's - 4 MR. Because one was on one of 5 these - let me see. It's at 12:00 a.m. It 6 actually says, "RA." 7 MR. That should be a B. 8 MR. Instead of a D? 9 MR. Yes. It should be a BA 10 which is on the second floor of persons placed 11 on watch, that's where they go. 12 MR. I=M Should that - instead of 13 saying, "RA," -- 14 MR. So -. 15 MR. -- it should say, "BA?" 16 MR. Correct. If it's -. 17 MR. Because that -. 18 MR. If it's there. But they 19 probably wrote R&D. 20 MR Well, it doesn't - so 21 this one says R&D. At 10:00 p.m. there's a 22 count slip from R&D that says, "1." It says 23 that's (Phonetic Sp. *01:26:12). 24 MR. , yes. 25 MR. 10:00 p.m. And just from EFTA00116176

118 1 reviewing this stuff, I'm assuming that this 2 one at 10:00 p.m. and this one that says, "RA," 3 at 12:00 a.m. are one in the same. Would that 4 be your logic as well? 5 MR. : Yes. It should have the 6 same number. 7 MR. So why is it - one say, 8 "RA" and one say "R&D?" 9 MR. Maybe he spelled the name - 10 spelled it wrong. 11 MR. All right, so the "RA" is 12 the one that's wrong? 13 MR. It should have been "R&D." 14 MR. R&D. 15 MR. Correct. 16 MR. Instead of RA. Okay. So 17 this RA is just - but that - you believe that's 18 actually the same 19 MR. Yes. 20 MR. -- the same location. 21 MR. Yes. 22 MR. All right. So with all 23 that information now, knowing that he's in dry 24 cell, he's out of the SHU, however somehow, 25 their count slips are matching what the EFTA00116177

119 1 institutional counts show, how do we explain 2 that if they don't have access to the 3 institutional count? 4 MR. Well they shouldn't have 5 access. 6 MR. Is there a way that they 7 can? Like how would they know to write that 8 number if only, for instance - let's even just 9 talk about 12:00 a.m. Only 72 people are 10 physically in the SHU but they're writing 73 11 and they're off ever since you leave. So 4:00 12 p.m. 13 MR. IIIIIII 10:00 p.m. 14 MR. -- 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 15 a.m. counts are all off and we're trying to - 16 this is where we're saying we're hoping that as 17 the OIC you can help us 18 MR. So -- 19 MR. -- put that puzzle 20 together. 21 MR. -- my only assumption would 22 be, whoever was working that night, had access 23 to the E-1, which is that's what we use. 24 MR. And do you know if - I IIIIII 25 think you said it was, what, EFTA00116178

120 1 Who was it that was -. 2 MR. I don't think 3 would have access. 4 MR. But they're not actually 5 supposed to have access? 6 MR. Correct. 7 MR. So yeah, I'm just trying 8 to -- 9 MR. And -. 10 MR. -- rectify this thing. 11 MR. Unless they cheated and 12 said, "Hey, how many do we have up here?" 13 That's my only - it's either they had access, 14 they looked at it. 15 MR. : Because we've also been 16 told at least by one of these people that they 17 write the count slips before ever doing the 18 count. So how would they know what number to 19 put in the count slips if they didn't actually 20 do the count? 21 MR. So they shouldn't and my 22 other explanation is they actually did have the 23 bodies, but one of them was in SHU and was 24 never written on the log. So now, there's this 25 other thing called a PB-38 that shows who goes EFTA00116179

121 1 in and outside of the building and what moves 2 are being made inside the building. 3 MR. : So would that help us 4 rectify this? 5 MR. That would actually help 6 you because it would - that's our little cheat 7 sheet, like I told you before, that we log in 8 during the day or right before I get relieved 9 at 2 o'clock, I'm going to print out that PB- 10 38, it's going to show me every inmate movement 11 in the building and whatever specific date I 12 want it. So if I'm doing today, three from SHU 13 just saying, "Left to another institution, to 14 Brooklyn." On that PB-38, it would say, 15 "Jones, Smith, Roberts moved to Brooklyn." So 16 now, I go that, I have 757, I just lost three. 17 Now I'm going down to 754. And just like it is 18 here, inmate 123 left to Brooklyn so now my 19 numbers go down. Again, we're all human, 20 sometimes there's a lot of movement, we might 21 miss one or two. So this right here -. 22 MR. But if these numbers 23 appear to all add up starting the day at 77 -- 24 MR. orrect. 25 MR. -- I showed you at 5:00 EFTA00116180

122 1 a.m., then I can show you all the way through 2 after Epstein, you know, die where I'm assuming 3 they definitely did the counts because there's 4 a - here's one that was done at 11:00 a.m., I 5 guess that was the 10:00 a.m. count on Saturday 6 7 MR. On Saturday, yes. 8 MR. : -- as well as the 5:00 9 p.m. count on Saturday. They're now all adding 10 up with what the numbers claim to be on this 11 Lieutenant's log. So, I'm assuming if they 12 were wrong on the Lieutenant's log and be right 13 on this, that would be reflected in these later 14 counts, correct? 15 MR. Yes. Yes. 16 MR. So that - so I'll 17 definitely get this document that you just 18 suggested, but does this information suggest to 19 you that the counts were or were not conducted 20 in the SHU? 21 MR. I think they were conducted 22 wrong. If the names - the only way I would 23 actually confirm it is the 38. Because an 24 inmate could be in SHU, he's already keyed in 25 SHU. Maybe he's on staff watch, it's still in EFTA00116181

123 1 SHU. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. So there's no need to key 4 him out. 5 MR._: And the 38 will able 6 to tell you this? 7 MR. Correct. The 38 will be 8 able to tell you if inmate Smith, inmate 9 Johnson was keyed out of SHU. 10 MR. Okay. Now -. 11 MR. And it would reflect on 12 this. So if the 38 - if you keyed out an 13 inmate, the count would be different. It would 14 be 75 and that's a hundred percent accurate 15 comparing everything. 16 MR. Yeah, so in talking with 17 the Lieutenant, Ops Lieutenant that was on at 18 midnight, that person said, "Fernandez was 19 never keyed out," and that's why the counts 20 were off and she keyed him out at midnight and 21 placed him over - does that give you any more 22 indication? 23 MR. So, that means 24 MR. So, (Indiscernible 25 *01:31:29). EFTA00116182

124 1 MR. -- the counts weren't 2 conducted correctly -- 3 MR. Yeah, so -- 4 MR. - until -. 5 MR. -- so the Ops Lieutenant 6 at midnight says, "Hey, I found this 7 discrepancy. This inmate Fernandez was place 8 on dry cell. I had to verify that that's in 9 fact where the person was. I had to key him 10 out of SHU and place him into there." 11 MR. That's the reason you got a 12 later -- 13 MR. Yeah. 14 MR. - out count for R&D. 15 MR. Yeah. That's the reason 16 for the change at midnight. 17 MR. Yes. 18 MR. And that, to me, tells me 19 that's the reason why all these counts were 20 actually wrong. 21 MR. Correct. And they were 22 just written - somebody must have had access to 23 this and -. 24 MR. : Right. But as far as you 25 know, no one actually knows how many inmates EFTA00116183

125 1 are actually in there unless you actually count 2 them? 3 MR. Correct. You have to count 4 them. 5 MR. Yes. 6 MR. You can't assume -. 7 MR. That's - so it would just 8 kind of like them trying to keep track or 9 something on a piece of paper doing adding and 10 subtracting? Would that be a possible way that 11 they would get the count that they're using? 12 MR. So, the way you count -. 13 MR. If they're not actually 14 counting, and they're -- 15 MR. They're assuming -. 16 MR. -- just - because 17 MR. They're - they're -. 18 MR. one of these people, 19 again, told us, "I write the count slips before 20 I ever do the counts." 21 mR.S So, if that person has 22 access or that person just assumes that the 23 count that started in the morning - because we 24 don't count at 10 o'clock in the morning during 25 Monday through Friday -- EFTA00116184

126 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. -- unless it's a holiday. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. So if the count at 5 5 o'clock in the morning was 75, not me 6 personally, the person could have said, "I'm 7 going to go with that count unless I see 8 somebody leaving," and just 9 MR. So -. 10 MR. -- it is a possibility that 11 person, he or she, could have wrote it. 12 MR. So, for instance, at the 13 4:00 p.m. count, someone would have gone off of 14 the 5:00 a.m. count -- 15 MR. In the morning, yes. 16 MR. -- and just how many 17 people they remembered that came and went? 18 MR. Correct. 19 MR. As a - okay. But it's 20 not like they knew what the institutional count 21 would actually have been. 22 MR. Correct, unless whoever was 23 there had access to this. 24 MR. So let's look at the 4:00 25 p.m. then. EFTA00116185

127 1 MR. And this is called the PB- 2 El. 3 MR. So at 4:00 p.m. count, 4 this is August 9th. That's ZA, it looks like 5 it was signed by who? 6 MR. oel and 7 MR. Does have access? 8 MR. hat I wouldn't be able to 9 tell you if he did or didn't. He has more time 10 than she does. So it could have been a 11 possibility that he had access. 12 MR. Okay. And being that 13 this number lists 75 whereas we believe it 14 should have been 74 -- 15 MR. Yes. 16 MR. do you believe that 17 they actually conducted that count? 18 MR. My - I would give them the 19 benefit of the doubt that they did. 20 MR. Okay. And how would the 21 come - if they actually did, how would they get 22 the wrong number and specifically the number 23 that the institution had? 24 MR MMII They didn't have everybody 25 stand up and just assumed that they were right. EFTA00116186

128 1 MR. So I guess that's what 2 I'm asking is, if they actually didn't conduct 3 the count, (Indiscernible *01:34:37) -. 4 MR. They could have just walked 5 around, looked in but not actually -. 6 MR. And that's what I mean, 7 and that's where beginning I was saying, 8 "What's the difference between a count and a 9 round," so count, you're actually counting the 10 inmates, correct? 11 MR. So the way you're supposed 12 to do -. 13 MR. Not just conducting a 14 round. 15 MR. Correct. If you're doing a 16 stand up count which every count is a stand up 17 count, you stand at the door, acknowledge your 18 presence, stand up count, okay, Johnson is 19 standing up, Smith is standing up, that's two. 20 I go all the way around, I do that to every 21 single cell, the eight cells. By the time I 22 get to the end, I counted 15, I write 15. Then 23 the next person behind me has to do the same 24 exact thing. Most likely, they start from this 25 way, the opposite way and not - and actually EFTA00116187

129 1 count and you confirm the number, "I got 15, 2 how many you got?" "I got 14." "Oh, okay, now 3 we got to count again." Everybody stand up. 4 Now we have the same count, write down 15, we 5 go down to next tier. That's how a count 6 should be conducted. 7 MR. Okay. But is that how 8 they were conducted in the SHU? 9 MR. That's how I did them when 10 we were there. 11 MR. Z: Okay. So as far as this 12 one though, if they actually conducted the 13 count, and I get that you're giving them the 14 benefit of the doubt, would you find it 15 extremely coincidental that they got the same 16 number that the institution had which were both 17 wrong? 18 MR. So if they did conduct the 19 count, they would have had the numbers wrong 20 from the institution. 21 MR. So institution had it 22 wrong and they have everybody keyed and the one 23 guy never was keyed out. 24 MR. So, the institution -. 25 MR. And they just EFTA00116188

130 1 coincidentally got the same exact number that 2 the institution had. 3 MR. So if the institution - the 4 institution wouldn't only know if it was keyed 5 out. 6 MR. That's what I'm saying. 7 That's what I'm saying. 8 MR. Correct. 9 MR. So the institution didn't 10 know because somebody didn't key out Fernandez. 11 MR. They probably -. 12 MR. Z: But -. 13 MR. They probably fucked up and 14 didn't actually count and just wrote it - it 15 comes down to that. Excuse my language, but -. 16 MR. No, then that's what I'm 17 assuming happened but I just want - I want to 18 know from you, why? Why do you believe that? 19 MR. Laziness maybe. 20 MR. : No, no, no, no, no, why 21 do you - so, why do you believe -. 22 MR. So sorry. 23 MR. What makes you believe 24 that the count wasn't conducted? I basically 25 gave you the answer. But, like, I'm just EFTA00116189

131 1 looking for you, if you're agreeing with my 2 logic and if that actually is the same logic 3 you have. I'm not trying to provide you that 4 answer, I'm just trying to see, like, "Hey, in 5 your 6 MR. o they 7 MR. You're the OIC, you're 8 the expert in this matter basically. Does this 9 information tell you that that count wasn't 10 done? 11 MR. Yes. It does tell me that 12 the count was not done and they just assumed 13 and went by the cheat sheet -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. -- because the body wasn't 16 even there. 17 MR. But going back to what 18 you said before, they don't actually have a 19 cheat sheet, they'd have to just kind of guess? 20 MR. Go off the count that was 21 at 5 o'clock in the morning if it was the same 22 number. Or they logged in where there was -. 23 MR. And there's no log that 24 can - there's no screen that they can say who's 25 logged into this right now, who's there, what's EFTA00116190

132 1 our total count in here? 2 MR. No, it's just a - E - well, 3 that, no, that part, because I can log in and 4 tell you how much - how many inmates every unit 5 has right now. 6 MR. Because you're a 7 Lieutenant. 8 MR. Without physically 9 counting. Yes. 10 MR. But what about the people 11 that work in the SHU? 12 MR. If you work Control before, 13 you would have that access. 14 MR. Right. Oh, so if you've 15 been in Control prior to that date. 16 MR. Correct. You would have 17 access. 18 MR. So, if for instance, 19 worked in Control, he could have access - 20 - 21 MR. Yes. 22 MR. -- to see, what's the 23 number. 24 MR. If she worked in Control I 25 two days prior, she would have a cess because EFTA00116191

133 1 that's what you do in Control. You 2 MR. : When you say, "She," are 3 you talking about Tova Noel? 4 MR. Correct, Noel. If she 5 worked in Control before, she would have access 6 and reason they give us access - well, all the 7 Lieutenants have access, but the reason they 8 give the officers access is because you work in 9 Control and you have to print out this sheet, 10 which is the E-1 that gives all the numbers of 11 all the units. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. So if worked there 14 before, he would have access and he would have, 15 you know -. 16 MR. Would he have indefinite 17 access? When do they take that access away? 18 MR. Usually when we have 19 program review and unless you're assigned to 20 Control, you cannot have access 21 MR. Okay. 22 MR. -- and they just take it 23 back from you. 24 MR All right. So is it - am 25 I understanding correctly, likely someone EFTA00116192

134 1 worked in Control and had access and they 2 looked to see what the institutional count was 3 and they just wrote that down? 4 MR. Yes. 5 MR. Okay. But you do believe 6 that this - what did you call it, 38, is 7 MR. PB-38. 8 MR. will help us? 9 MR. That has more - that paper 10 would not lie. 11 MR. And is that paper what 12 the Lieutenants use to fill out their logs? 13 MR. Yes. 14 MR. Okay. And as far as the 15 Lieutenant log goes though, that could have 16 been created at any time though during the day 17 and specifically after all the stuff actually 18 happened? 19 MR. Yes. 20 MR. All right. And would it 21 be likely that it was created once the 22 Lieutenant at midnight actually noticed this 23 discrepancy, would they have the ability to go 24 in and then correct everything? 25 MR. Yes. So now we have a day EFTA00116193

135 1 watch Lieutenant log, an evening watch 2 Lieutenant log, and a morning watch Lieutenant 3 log. 4 MR. : So would this - would the 5 - let's say, would the morning watch at 6 midnight have access to the day before 7 Lieutenant log? 8 MR. Yes. 9 MR. So they -- 10 MR. Yes. 11 MR. -- could actually go it - 12 so the person -- 13 MR. And fix it. 14 MR. -- that worked at 15 midnight on August 10th could have gone into 16 August 9th and fixed everything? 17 MR. Correct, the discrepancies 18 on the numbers. 19 MR. Okay. 20 MR. Yes. 21 MR. All right. 22 MR. Or correct based on the 38. 23 MR. Right. And they probably 24 referenced the 38 to fill out the -- 25 Yes, because if you saw EFTA00116194

136 1 MR. Z: -- Lieutenant's log. 2 MR. -- on the 38 you had - 3 again, let's say Fernandez wasn't on the 4 Lieutenant's log but then on the 38 you saw 5 that he moved to R&D, you go back and key him 6 out because the numbers have to be accurate by 7 the time of every shift, the ending of every 8 shift. 9 MR. Right. And when we read 10 this for this Fernandez on dry cell with staff 11 watching R&D, is it possible that Fernandez was 12 in SHU dry watch and then later in the day 13 moved to R&D dry watch? 14 MR. He could have went from a 15 unit into dry watch or Special Housing, SHU, to 16 dry watch. 17 MR. How does that typically 18 work? If you're on dry watch, is there a 19 reason for them to bring you from the SHU on 20 dry watch to R&D on dry watch or would it 21 typically just go right from the SHU to dry 22 watch in R&D? 23 MR. MM. It would go - there's no 24 reason to take you out of SHU -- 25 MR. : Yeah, why would -. EFTA00116195

137 1 MR. -- unless you're short 2 staffed. 3 MR. 4 MR. 5 MR. Okay. f there's two -. So in this case, do you 6 believe they were short staffed? 7 MR. 8 two officers and one on morning watch. 9 MR. Okay. And morning watch, 10 right. So what about the day watch? 11 MR. Then you're supposed to 12 have four officers in SHU during the day. If 13 it would have been three, then removing one 14 officer would have left it with just two 15 officers in SHU. So if you have just three 16 officers and I'm going to put, for example, 17 Officer to do dry watch and I'm 18 sitting there and I cannot move, I have to 19 watch this inmate throughout the whole day. 20 MR. So with that being said, 21 do you believe it's more likely than not that 22 he was moved to the dry cell in R&D at through, 23 whatever time we said it was, 3:15? 24 MR. It could have been. 25 MR. Or because it does - Yes, because there was only EFTA00116196

138 1 because at 3:15, it says, "Fernandez 2 MR. rom. 3 MR. -- placed on dry cell 4 from ZA." 5 MR. SHU, that's SHU. 6 MR. So to me, it looks like 7 he left. 8 MR. So, he was -. 9 MR. So according to this, 10 it's saying he left 11 MR. SHU. 12 MR. SHU. 13 MR. Yes. So he should have 14 been keyed out from Special Housing -- 15 MR. And who was 16 MR. -- at that time. 17 MR. -- responsible for keying 18 him out? 19 MR. Control or the OIC in SHU. 20 MR. And who would have been 21 the OIC at that time after you left? 22 MR. At that time, it should 23 have been because he came in at 4:OO. 24 No. he had - would have been more 25 experienced because he worked that floor, so if EFTA00116197

139 1 anything, it should have been , but 2 anybody from SHU could call Control, "Control, 3 I just lost Fernandez," in that case, "Key him 4 out for me." "Okay." 5 MR. Okay. So the people that 6 are in the SHU may not have been able to do it 7 themselves is what you're saying? 8 MR. Correct. 9 MR. So they should have 10 contacted Control? 11 MR. Yes. 12 MR. And Control should have 13 made that 14 MR. Made that change, yes. 15 MR. : All right. 16 MR. But now, Control cannot 17 make the change if they do not know about it. 18 MR. Right. And in this case, 19 we know that that key - the key - he wasn't 20 keyed out until midnight -- 21 MR. Correct. 22 MR. • -- so likely that 23 notification wasn't made. 24 MR. Right. They probably just 25 took him down to R&D, like if he was leaving EFTA00116198

140 1 the building, made out count for him and just 2 forgot about him. 3 MR. And that 38 would verify 4 if Fernandez in fact was gone from the SHU at 5 3:15 p.m.? 6 MR. Yes. 7 MR. Okay. So we got to get 8 that 38. 9 MR. Where can we access that 38? 10 MR. On SENTRY. 11 MR. SENTRY has it? 12 MR. Yes. 13 MR. All right. Is there 14 anything else before we move on, kind of -. 15 MR. You covered that. 16 MR. We kind of really covered 17 it. I just wanted to make sure. That was kind 18 of the primary reason for - I wanted to make 19 sure what your opinion was on that whole thing 20 and specifically if that indicates to you that 21 those counts were not actually conducted. And 22 again, for my understanding, from your 23 response, you believe now that they were not 24 conducted, correct? 25 MR. Correct. EFTA00116199

141 1 MR. And that's if Fernandez 2 was in fact moved at 3:15. 3 MR. ight. 4 MR. All right. Just, I know 5 there's a lot of documents. Can you just make 6 sure that whatever we reviewed here, just 7 initialing, date the tops of them. 8 MR. Did you show him the 5:30? 9 Now, right? 10 MR. : Yeah, because I showed 11 him that that was the good count for the 12 counts. It started that day. 13 MR. You got one more. 14 MR. It's been pain in the ass, 15 man. 16 MR. Yes, it has. 17 MR. Excuse me. 18 MR. Again, it's just -- 19 MR. Excuse me, guys. 20 MR. you know, there's a 21 lot of documents that we talked about. 22 MR. Just like, man. 23 MR. All right. So, how oft- 24 being that we believe now that those counts 25 were falsified by staff working the SHU, how EFTA00116200

142 1 often were counts falsified by staff in the SHU 2 and was this a common practice? 3 MR. See, that happened four 4 years in and I was just working the SHU for 5 about almost, I would say, six months. So from 6 - again, when I started working in the SHU, it 7 was six of us throughout during the day. By 8 the time I got out of SHU, it was three of us. 9 So when I - it's human nature, people get lazy, 10 but the whole time that I was there, I didn't 11 hear about, "Oh, this guy is going to write the 12 rounds," or, "This guy is going to count," and 13 just give in the slips. So, again, I was 14 pretty new in SHU. I've always worked the unit 15 and when I counted the unit, I had to count 16 with somebody. 17 MR. Did anyone ever, since 18 you were new to the unit, ever tell you, "Oh, 19 this is the way we do it in SHU, we don't 20 actually do counts." 21 MR. No. No. 22 MR. : So you -. 23 MR. I worked with pretty - some 24 solid guys then. 25 MR. So do you know of anybody EFTA00116201

143 1 that were falsifying their counts? 2 MR. No. 3 MR. Would it surprise you if 4 those people we just discussed, specifically I 5 guess it's since Noel was new, would it 6 surprise you if falsified a count? 7 MR. , I don't think he 8 would. 9 MR. You don't think he would 10 falsify it. 11 MR. I don't think he would 12 falsify a count. 13 MR. All right. 14 MR. Noel, I didn't know too 15 much. 16 MR. : But being that we, you 17 know, somehow they miraculously get the same 18 number that the institution had because 19 Fernandez wasn't keyed out, that doesn't make 20 you believe that it was falsified, correct? 21 MR. : I don't know how to answer 22 that. I would hope not. I really would hope 23 not, but it's kind of too easy to figure out. 24 MR. Right. 25 MR. Again, I think -. EFTA00116202

144 1 MR. So the evidence suggests 2 he did, you just hope it's not 3 MR. Correct. 4 MR. Okay. 5 MR. Correct. 6 MR. So, but knowing him, 7 there's no reason for you to believe that -. 8 MR. That he actually did 9 falsify. 10 MR. Right. So you don't 11 believe him to be a very dishonest person. 12 MR. Correct. And he left that 13 work, that 10 o'clock because he relieved me 14 from 2:00 to 10:00, so. 15 MR. Right. So is he - he's a 16 good employee otherwise? 17 MR. Yes. He would have did the 18 4 o'clock count. He should do the 10 o'clock 19 count, but sometimes we leave at 9:50. 20 MR. Sure. 21 MR. And then, there's always 22 two people left, so the two people could 23 conduct the count. 24 MR. IIIIIIIIIII Is still here at 25 the MCC? EFTA00116203

145 1 MR. Yes. 2 MR. : What's his current 3 position? 4 MR. 5 MR. Senior Officer 6 Specialist? Okay. 7 MR. 8 MR. He's a Senior Officer. Just a Senior Officer. Just Senior Officer? 9 Okay. So do you recall what conversations you 10 had with SHU staff who worked on August 9, 11 2019, including Michael Thomas and Tova Noel 12 about making entries related to counts and 13 rounds? So, specifically what I'm asking here 14 is that you're the OIC. Do you remember any 15 conversations that you would have had with any 16 of the people that worked in the SHU? 17 MR. Well, I didn't see Noel. 18 MR. I don't mean 19 MR. The 9th? 20 MR. I don't mean on the 9th - 21 - 22 MR. Like -. 23 MR. -- people that worked on 24 the 9th, did you ever have conversations with 25 the people that worked on the 9th about, "Make EFTA00116204

146 1 sure you're doing it correctly and this is how 2 it's supposed to be done." 3 MR. I do, I would say, "Do what 4 you're supposed to do," as I'm leaving. 5 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 6 MR. "Don't fuck it up. Do what 7 you got to do." 8 MR. And do you follow what 9 I'm saying though? I'm not saying that you 10 would have had a conversation with them on the 11 9th. I'm saying -- 12 MR. Like in general? 13 MR. : -- of the people that 14 worked on the 9th. So these people are the 15 ones like Noel, , you know, these 16 are the people that actually worked on the 9th. 17 Ever leading up to the 9th, so any day leading 18 up to the 9th, would have you had a 19 conversation with them to say, "Make sure 20 you're doing your rounds and counts correctly." 21 MR. Yep. I'm sure I've told 22 them - because everybody wants to work SHU. 23 SHU is a pain in the butt, but, if you want to 24 work SHU, you got to do your rounds and do your 25 stuff how you're supposed to do it. EFTA00116205

147 1 MR. : All right. Can you 2 remember any specific conversations or when 3 those conversations would have taken place? 4 MR. Probably walking around, 5 talking to them, seeing during or watching 6 (Indiscernible *01:49:49) anybody. Thomas has 7 been working for the Bureau for a very long 8 time, even before I did, so he's worked SHU 9 before and he knows what to do in SHU. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. But he's not - he works in 12 a different department. But -. 13 MR. What about the newer 14 people like -- 15 MR. =ewer people? Everybody -. 16 MR. Tova Noel? She's 17 newer to the - she was reportedly been at post, 18 you're the OIC, do you know if you had any 19 conversations with her or would have you? 20 MR. I would have said, "Do what 21 you got to do. Don't fuck it up for us." Just 22 like that. But that's just the way I speak. 23 MR. When you say, "Do what 24 you got to do," though, what does that mean? 25 MR. Follow the rules and do EFTA00116206

148 1 what's according to policy. 2 MR. Okay. So not, do what 3 you got to do, it's like, do what you're 4 supposed to do. 5 MR. Do - do - yeah, I should 6 have rephrased it a little bit, but that's the 7 way I speak to everybody -- 8 MR. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 9 MR. -- so it's pretty much, 10 we're cool, but I'm still telling you to do 11 what you have to do based on the policy, make 12 sure you do anything that's not supposed - that 13 you're not supposed to - against policy. If 14 it's in black and white, that's how you got to 15 do it. 16 MR. Okay. And do you recall 17 ever saying that to Tova Noel being that she 18 was newer? 19 MR. That's - I'm sure I - 20 because again, I speak like that to everybody. 21 MR. Okay. 22 MR. Even now as Lieutenant, I 23 talk to you more as a co-worker than, "I'm your 24 supervisor." 25 MR. Sure. EFTA00116207

149 1 MR. But I always tell everyone, 2 "Do your job. It's simple, just do your job." 3 MR. And I know I'm hammering 4 this, but I mean, are you confident you would 5 have had that conversation -- 6 MR. .es. 7 MR. -- with Tova Noel? 8 MR. .es. 9 MR. Or -- 10 MR. es. 11 MR. -- would have you had 12 that conversation with Michael Thomas being 13 that he's not typically a -. 14 MR. Probably not. 15 MR. No? 16 MR. Just because he has way 17 more time than I do. 18 MR. : Okay. What about 19 MR. the same thing, he 20 worked with us in SHU I think before that or 21 maybe after. He got - I was the SHU OIC during 22 the day and he was the SHU OIC at night. 23 MR. : Okay. So 24 MR. So -. 25 MR. -- knew what to do. EFTA00116208

150 1 MR. Yes. 2 MR. : And he knew the right way 3 to do it. 4 MR. 5 MR. 6 7 MR. Yes. Okay. And what about was 8 pretty new. Excuse me. He was pretty new and 9 I think he already worked for the warehouse. 10 MR. Okay. 11 MR. So, same thing. 12 MR. So -- 13 MR. do-. 14 MR. -- if was working, 15 was the OIC at night? 16 MR. Yes. 17 MR. So would do you 18 believe, have had that conversation with 19 IIIIIIIII 20 MR. Yes. 21 MR. : To do what's -. 22 MR. Same thing with Shakir, he 23 would have, "Hey, do the right thing." 24 MR. : Okay. And you didn't 25 work on August 10th you said, correct? EFTA00116209

151 1 MR. Correct. 2 MR. : Is there any way you 3 would have been able to know if the counts on 4 August 10th were correct? 5 MR No. 6 MR No. 7 MR No way. 8 MR What - I know we just 9 talked about it, but what is the daily 10 Lieutenant's log? 11 It's a log that we have in 12 the system that every Lieutenant has to pretty 13 much fill out every single day and make sure 14 it's accurate right before their shift ends. 15 MR. Does a Lieutenant have 16 their own Lieutenant's log or is it an overall 17 Lieutenant's log? 18 MR. It's an overall 19 Lieutenant's log. 20 MR. So every Lieutenant has 21 access to that same log. 22 MR.IIIIIIIII Correct, it's on the share 23 drive. 24 MR. So I was going to say, 25 where can it be found and accessed? What's the EFTA00116210

152 1 share drive? 2 MR. IIIIIIIII The share drive, you log 3 into - well, here in this building, you log in, 4 you go to I think it's the G drive, double 5 click and you're going to see Lieutenant's log. 6 MR. : So is it just like a 7 document and you'd go into like a shared folder 8 or would be on something like a SENTRY or 9 (Indiscernible *01:53:09)? 10 MR. Share folder. 11 MR. A share folder? So just 12 a document that you create every day -- 13 MR. Yes. 14 MR. -- and you - so it's not 15 actually in a system? 16 MR. 17 MR. 18 MR. No. : All right. It's in a share folder. 19 It's not like on TRUSCOPE or SENTRY or anything 20 like that. 21 MR. And at the end of the 22 day, is that then uploaded into some kind of 23 BOP system? 24 MR. It stays on the drive and 25 once you log in, you open the Lieutenant's log, EFTA00116211

153 1 you make the changes to the number, you save it 2 and every day it gets saved. 3 MR. : Okay. And is there 4 anything that's done with that though? Is it 5 then uploaded into something or it just stays 6 in the share folder? 7 It stays in the share 8 folder, from my knowledge. 9 MR. Okay. And does anyone 10 aside from Lieutenants have access to change 11 that log? 12 MR. No, just the - well, the 13 Captain, the AW and the Warden. 14 MR. Yeah. 15 MR. But -. 16 MR. So Lieutenants and above? 17 MR. Correct. 18 MR. Nobody below a 19 Lieutenant? 20 MR. : Nobody below Lieutenant. 21 MR. What about the people in 22 Control? 23 MR. No, they don't have access 24 to that. 25 MR. So even Control doesn't - EFTA00116212

154 1 - 2 MR. No. 3 MR. -- can't manipulate -- 4 MR. No. 5 MR. -- the Lieutenant's log? 6 MR. Correct. 7 MR. Okay. And I don't know 8 that you'll be able to answer this, but are the 9 times listed on the Lieutenant's log that you 10 just reviewed accurate? 11 MR. I don't know. 12 MR. Is it all based upon 13 whoever is entering it? 14 MR. Yes. 15 MR. Okay. Is there any kind 16 of a verifying process? Like does anybody 17 oversight over that to kind of audit the 18 documents? 19 MR. The only way you could 20 verify it and the only thing would be the 21 moves. So if inmate movement in the 22 institution, you could verify it because you go 23 to the PB-38. 24 MR. And who creates that 25 document, the 38? EFTA00116213

155 1 MR. : The 38? You would call 2 Control, "Inmate Joe Smith left today." Or, 3 "Inmate Joe Smith was in 11 South, he was 4 moved." "Okay." I could call downstairs at 5 1O:3O, that's the time he moved, but it could 6 be off within a couple of - it could be off a 7 few minutes -- 8 MR. So even -. 9 MR. -- because Control has to 10 key it in. 11 MR. All right, so, that's 12 something that's created by Control. But what 13 we just said, we were going to use that to 14 verify if Fernandez left at 3:15, if the people 15 in the SHU never called Control to log 16 Fernandez out, would that be listed on the 38? 17 MR. No. 18 MR. So therefore, that might 19 not actually be the accurate document because 20 if they didn't call, the BP-38 wouldn't 21 (Indiscernible *O1:55:27). 22 MR. The 38 would only verify 23 the movement and the time that it was keyed in. 24 MR. : That it was keyed. 25 MR. Correct. EFTA00116214

156 1 MR. So if it wasn't keyed 2 until midnight, which -- 3 MR. hen 4 MR. what the Lieutenant 5 said, like, "I found out that this person moved 6 earlier and he's actually in a different 7 location, I needed to make that key change at 8 midnight." 9 MR. The time that he -- 10 MR. : That's what -- 11 MR. -- actually moved? 12 MR. : -- reflected on the 38. 13 MR. Correct. Because it's the 14 time, not the time it was keyed in the 15 Lieutenant's log -- 16 MR. All right. So there -. 17 MR. -- because I can change 18 those logs. 19 MR. So in this instance, the 20 38 would actually be incorrect if he wasn't 21 keyed out when he actually moved. 22 MR. Correct. It wouldn't be 23 anything because he was never keyed. 24 MR. All right. So therefore, 25 this 38 actually would make it even more EFTA00116215

157 1 confusing. 2 MR. Not really because it would 3 tell you if he got moved and at what time he 4 got moved. 5 MR. All right. So the 38 6 would list probably the same thing in the 7 Lieutenant's log, that's at midnight, Fernandez 8 was moved at 3:15 p.m. to dry - from ZA. 9 MR. So the 38 would have the 10 actual time he was keyed in. 11 MR. : Yeah, the keyed. 12 MR. So it would show you - 13 let's say the Lieutenant said she didn't find 14 out or he didn't find out until midnight that 15 this inmate, Fernandez, was moved and never 16 keyed out. She keys him out, now the date on 17 the 38 would be August 10th because it's after 18 midnight. 19 MR. Right. 20 MR. August 10th, 1:45 in the 21 morning, that's what the 38 would say. But in 22 the log, it would say he got moved at 3:30, 23 because that's when -. 24 MR. In the Lieutenant's log. 25 MR. Correct. EFTA00116216

158 1 MR. So in this case, probably 2 the Lieutenant's log is the more accurate one. 3 MR. Yes. 4 MR. All right. Good to know. 5 MR. Just had a question. If 6 you're moving an inmate, right, doesn't the 7 outer doors of the SHU have to be buzzed by 8 Control? 9 MR. Yes. 10 MR. When Control - does Control 11 have eyes on 12 MR. Yes. 13 MR. -- on - wouldn't they see an 14 inmate being moved? 15 MR. Yes. 16 MR. nd wouldn't they question, 17 "How come he's not keyed in?" 18 MR. Well, depending on the 19 time. So like when let's say it was between 8 20 o'clock in the morning and 2 o'clock in the 21 afternoon, inmates are going in and out, in and 22 out, even SHU, like medical, dental, court, 23 attorney visits. So now you have six, seven 24 inmates going in and out, not at all times 25 you're looking, "Oh, is an inmate coming out," EFTA00116217

159 1 they pop - you know, you call for the door. 2 You probably could just open the door right 3 there, but then have to run to the window, give 4 somebody a set of keys. 5 MR. Okay. And then just to 6 clarify on that same question. If that PB-38 7 will show the key in time of when the 8 Lieutenant puts it in, what do you think the 9 Lieutenant or whoever updated that document got 10 the 3:15 time? 11 MR. Or she called R&D and said, 12 "Hey, what time this inmate got downstairs?" 13 "Oh, he came around 3:30." "All right. Well, 14 you should have told me, you know, key him 15 out," or whatever. 16 MR. At midnight, would that 17 employee that was on shift during evening watch 18 still be on there? 19 MR. ep. 20 MR. What was that last 21 question? Was what? 22 MR. The employee in R&D, would 23 that person still be on shift at midnight. 24 MR. What is the time for the 25 shifts -- EFTA00116218

160 1 MR. So, it would be -. 2 MR. -- in R&D? 3 MR. The shifts are 4:00 to 4 12:00, 4:00 to midnight. But usually, if 5 you're on dry cell -- 6 MR. Yeah. 7 MR. -- watching somebody, you 8 would not leave exactly at midnight. You would 9 leave a couple of minutes after unless you were 10 doing a double doing dry cell. 11 MR. : All right. Let's talk - 12 the fact that that this guy Fernandez wasn't 13 specifically tied to Epstein, is there any 14 chance two years later we're going to be able 15 to talk to anybody to verify when he got the 16 dry cell? 17 MR. No. He probably is not 18 even in the institution anymore, Fernandez. 19 MR. That's what I mean. So 20 like even talking to R&D, do you think that 21 there's any way that they'd even remember when 22 this guy placed down there? 23 MR. No, because who knows who 24 was in R&D that day, who knows if they're still 25 working here. EFTA00116219

161 1 MR. But what about, like for 2 instance, we have the count slips at least for 3 10:00 p.m. Actually, where there was no count 4 slip for him at 4:00 p.m. but we have the count 5 slips for R&D and RA at 10:00 p.m. and 6 midnight. Do you believe that even they would 7 be able to recall if it was Fernandez that they 8 watched? 9 MR. No. No. 10 MR. And why is that? 11 MR. Just because a lot of 12 inmate movement. 13 MR. How reliable do you 14 believe that that Lieutenant log saying that he 15 left at 3:15, how reliable at this point, us 16 looking at it back then and the person making 17 that change potentially at midnight that night, 18 how reliable do you view that 3:15 time? 19 MR. If it's Lieutenant 20 that's - she's very by the book. I'm 21 not saying that everybody else is not. 22 MR. Right. 23 MR. But and she knows her job. 24 MR. Do you -. 25 MR. So if that would probably EFTA00116220

162 1 be maybe the only Lieutenant, especially on 2 morning watch, that would catch a mistake like 3 that. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. And she - numbers didn't 6 add up, she went back and changed it, made it 7 accurate 8 MR. Okay. And certainly you 9 believe that the institutional count was made 10 accurate for her, but what I guess I'm 11 specifically requesting, you know, wondering, 12 how accurate do you think she would have made 13 the movement of 3:15 moved ZA from - or moved 14 to dry cell from ZA? 15 MR. Very. 16 MR. Very? 17 MR. Very accurate, yes. 18 MR. So you believe that that 19 3:15 then is probably the right time? 20 MR. Around the time that he got 21 moved, yes. 22 MR. Okay. Sounds good. And 23 no one in the SHU has access to the 24 Lieutenant's log? 25 MR. No. EFTA00116221

163 1 MR. All right. We're going 2 to move on now. 3 MR. Oh, sorry. 4 MR. What - no, I'm sorry, 5 this is - again, like I said, you're kind of 6 like - when I saw that one page interview 7 report, I was like, "Oh, this is the guy that, 8 you know, has all the answers." But what is 9 the MCC policy on conducting cell searches in 10 the SHU? And let's specifically talk about, if 11 you can remember, in August. So in August of 12 2019, do you remember what the MCC policy was 13 on conducting cell searches in the SHU? 14 MR. You got to conduct cell 15 search every time an inmate comes out. I don't 16 know if that's actual policy or not. 17 MR. Was it something like 18 some of the shifts you had to do five cell 19 searches -- 20 MR. Per shift 21 MR. -- during that shift? 22 MR. Yes. 23 MR. Or if the person may be, 24 you know, in the day watch, maybe if someone 25 went to rec, you're supposed to -. EFTA00116222

164 1 MR. So, the way we did it, you 2 came out to the shower, that was our cell 3 search. 4 MR. Okay. 5 MR. So, every Monday, Wednesday 6 and Friday we showered everybody, everybody's 7 cell was searched. 8 MR. So every Monday, 9 Wednesday and Friday everyone's cell was 10 searched? 11 MR. Yes, because everybody got 12 a shower. So we took that as okay -. 13 MR. And officers would 14 actually go in and search their cells? 15 MR. Yes. 16 MR. Okay. And what about the 17 non-shower days, how would you do searches or 18 would you -. 19 MR.M= When somebody went to rec, 20 when somebody went to R&D, if somebody has to 21 go to medical, we'll bring you out and we 22 search the cell. 23 MR. : Okay. And then, what is 24 the responsibility of the SHU OIC with regard 25 to SHU cell searches, if anything? EFTA00116223

165 1 MR. To make sure they're logged 2 in and make sure they get conducted. 3 MR. Okay. So like, is the 4 OIC the one - were you the one that would 5 actually log them into like TRUSCOPE? 6 MR. : Well, anybody could log 7 them in but most the time I did it or I was 8 searching the cell myself. 9 MR. : And what is the 10 responsibility of the SHU Lieutenant with 11 regard to cell searches, if any? 12 MR. To make sure the OIC got it 13 done. 14 MR. Okay. And were cell 15 searches being conducted and logged in to 16 TRUSCOPE for the SHU in August of 2019? 17 MR. hey should have. Yes. 18 MR. All right. So we 19 requested to - just because we're going to get 20 into what was found in Epstein's cell later, 21 but you're the one who logged this in, but we 22 only found one cell search for June 9, 2019. 23 MR. August 9th. 24 MR. Or sorry, August 9 - is 25 that June 9th or August 9th? What does that EFTA00116224

166 1 say? 2 MR. August 9th. 3 MR. : Okay. August 9, 2019. 4 Does that - would that be normal that there 5 would only be one logged in? 6 MR. : No. Again, it's depending 7 what was going on during the day -. 8 MR. : So that would have been 9 one of those shower days, I guess, though. 10 MR. And I worked - yes, from 11 1:00 - I worked until 2 o'clock that day. 12 MR. : But do you believe that 13 there was only one cell search conducted or do 14 you believe that there were more? 15 MR. There was one cell search 16 probably logged in. 17 MR. Okay. But all of them 18 were conducted? 19 MR. ould have been conducted, 20 yes. 21 MR. And do you believe that - 22 I know we're talking two years ago. Do you 23 believe that all of them were conducted? 24 MR. The majority. 25 MR. Yeah. EFTA00116225

167 1 MR. The majority. 2 MR. Any reason - do you know 3 if Epstein's cell would have been searched on 4 August 9th? 5 MR. It should have been because 6 him and Reyes both left at the same time. 7 MR. Right And who would 8 have done that cell search? 9 MR. Well, took them out to the 10 shower. 11 MR. Okay. And is that like 12 everybody? Does everybody - how does that 13 work? Who 14 MR. So, technically the OIC is 15 not supposed to - he has the big set which is 16 the keys to the - on the ranges and the door 17 and everybody else goes in and out the tiers. 18 MR. Okay. 19 MR. But we were all involved. 20 We all moved inmates from this tier to another 21 tier. Okay, "You two on that side, okay, bring 22 them out," search their cell. If I'm on this 23 side, I'm going to bring them out, do the cell 24 search. 25 MR. Okay. And this isn't - EFTA00116226

168 1 I'm not trying to be and I gotcha, at all at 2 any moment, I'm just trying to get a greater 3 understanding. So if all of the cells were 4 searched, why would only one search be entered 5 for that day? 6 MR. I'm busy during the day. 7 MR. And was that like does 8 that happen often though like it's too busy to 9 actually log the searches in? 10 MR. The system is kind of a 11 pain in the butt because you've got to do one 12 by one by one, you know, unless you do all of 13 them. I mean, unless you do one, then enter, 14 then another one and enter. It's not like you 15 could do multiple cell searches or click them 16 that you did them at one time. 17 MR. Okay. Now it's my 18 understanding that after you left, the night 19 watch is then responsible for conducting on 20 every shift, five cell searches, correct? 21 MR. Yes. 22 MR. And who would have logged 23 that in? 24 MR. Anybody could have logged 25 it. EFTA00116227

169 1 MR. Anyone? 2 MR. But it should be the OIC. 3 MR. So that would have been 4 who should have done that? 5 MR. Correct. Yes. 6 MR. : All right. And does the 7 fact that you had your one that you entered 8 earlier in the day, the fact that there's none 9 for the rest of the day, is that problematic in 10 your opinion? 11 MR. Not really because 12 throughout the day, we pretty much do the 13 showers. So we went into every single cell. 14 MR. Okay. 15 MR. Now maybe it should have 16 been keyed so it could reflect because if 17 there's no cameras, you can say, "Yeah, all 18 right," -- 19 MR. Right. 20 MR. -- you only did one because 21 you keyed in one. But, you know, they should 22 because they also have rec at night time. When 23 you bring back an inmate or you bring them out 24 to attorney visit, you're still bringing the 25 inmates out. EFTA00116228

170 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. So they should have been 3 keyed in. 4 MR. So although they were not 5 keyed in, do you believe that they were being 6 conducted on August 9, 2019? 7 MR. Yes. 8 MR. Yes? 9 MR. Yes. 10 MR. What about after you 11 left, do you believe that there would have been 12 - the five cell searches would have been 13 conducted on 2019 at this point? 14 MR. They should have because I 15 know we had legal visits and maybe we had 16 regular like visits for the inmates with their 17 family members. 18 MR. Do you recall, what is 19 the policy at least in August of 2019 related 20 to what inmates are allowed to have in their 21 cells? 22 MR. Well, no contraband of 23 course. Five hard cover books only. 24 MR. : What about like medical? 25 MR. Two sheets, one blanket. EFTA00116229

171 1 2 3 If you have the CPAP machine, you can get that. MR. How - and just for the record, how do you spell that? What is it? 4 That machine? 5 MR. What, the CPAP? 6 MR. Is it CPAC or CPAP? 7 MR. CPAP, CPAP. 8 MR. Is it for snoring? 9 MR. Yes. 10 MR. That's what you're 11 talking about? So you can breathe better? 12 MR. .es. 13 MR. Okay. 14 MR. o CPAP, right? 15 MR. I actually don't know. 16 MR. is it? 17 MR. That's why I was asking. 18 MR. Is it C-P-A-P? 19 MR. I think that's what it is. 20 Not even sure. But it was a machine that you 21 use to help you breathe in the middle of the 22 night -- 23 MR. : I just know 24 MR. -- and you go to sleep with 25 it. EFTA00116230

172 1 MR. (Indiscernible *02:08:22). 2 MR. I just know the 3 transcriber for this would be like, "What the 4 heck is he saying?" 5 MR. Is that for sleep apnea? 6 MR. Yes. That's - I think it 7 helps you - it clears your whatever it is, your 8 nose or your throat so you can be able to 9 breathe better in the middle of the night. 10 MR. : And I did interrupt, I 11 apologize, when you were getting into the 12 linens. How many sheets and blankets and all 13 that? Can you 14 MR. It should be - if it's 15 August, it should be two sheets, one blanket. 16 MR. Two sheets, one blanket. 17 That's for each individual -- 18 MR. Yes. 19 MR. -- inmate. So, for each 20 cell, if there's two inmates, it would be four 21 sheets and two blankets. 22 MR. Correct. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. And the wintertime, it's 25 two sheets, two blankets. EFTA00116231

173 1 MR. : Okay. Was Epstein 2 authorized to have pills in his cell within the 3 SHU? 4 MR. Well, if you have 5 medication, yes, you can have your own 6 medication. 7 MR. And that's - okay. 8 MR. We don't set a number on 9 that. 10 MR. Who is responsible for 11 determining what medication inmates have? 12 MR. The Medical Department. 13 MR. And do they provide it to 14 them? 15 MR. Yes. 16 MR. And then they're able to 17 just keep it in their cell and take it? 18 MR. Yes. 19 MR. Is there ever a problem 20 with like overdose or anything like that? 21 MR. I mean, we've had inmates 22 take more than they're supposed to take. 23 MR. Is it dependent upon what 24 type of medication if they can have it in their 25 cell or not? EFTA00116232

174 1 MR. IIIIIIII: So, certain medication, the 2 pill line, which is Medical, they'll come 3 around and give it to you daily if that's what 4 - you're only supposed to have it daily, 5 Medical Department will come around and give it 6 to the inmates themselves. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. Anything else, if you have 9 your own medication, it would be in your cell. 10 MR. Okay. I'm going to just 11 show you some pictures of August 10th and I 12 just wanted, if you can just kind of let me 13 know what I'm looking at. Is this L Tier, is 14 that where Epstein would have been housed? 15 MR. Yes. 16 MR. : Okay. And then another 17 picture of L Tier. This wasn't his cell there. 18 MR. No. 19 MR. Do you remember what cell 20 number he was in? 21 MR. I know exactly. It was the 22 first one to the right, 221 maybe? 23 MR. 221 or maybe 222 or 24 something? 25 MR. (Indiscernible *02:10:30). EFTA00116233

175 1 MR. All right. I think it's 2 220, but is this his tier? 3 MR. That's L Tier, yes, here on 4 the right. 5 MR. Does this look like it 6 would have been - it looks like it would have 7 been 220. 8 MR. eah. 9 MR. But would that have been 10 Epstein's cell? 11 MR. Yes. 12 MR. All right. So 220 was 13 the first door on the right when you're walking 14 down the -- 15 MR. Yes. 16 MR. -- the tier? 17 MR. hen you walk into - yes. 18 MR. All right. So, I want to 19 just - I'll let you look through these. Can 20 you just let me know if this looks like an 21 abnormal amount of linens and blankets and 22 clothing? And we don't know, so that's why 23 we're asking. And that's again, not a gotcha, 24 I don't know if it's more than should be or 25 what. EFTA00116234

176 1 MR. : No, I think this was his 2 and his bunkie's. 3 MR. So does that make you 4 believe that his bunkie's was never removed? 5 And when should have they been removed? 6 MR. As soon as they figure out 7 that he's not coming back. 8 MR. So at either 4:00 p.m. or 9 certainly before 8:00 p.m.? 10 MR. Yes. 11 MR. : Would it have been when 12 Epstein was returned to attorney client visit, 13 definitely at that time, should have they made 14 sure -. 15 MR. : Well, by 8 o'clock, they 16 should - while walking Epstein back into the 17 cell, they should have said, "Oh shit, he 18 doesn't have a bunkie," and, "Oh shit, his 19 bunkie is gone." 20 MR. All right. So by looking 21 at those photos, you just believe that that was 22 actually both Epstein and Reyes's? 23 MR. Yes. 24 MR. Okay. 25 MR. It probably -. EFTA00116235

177 1 MR. So it does look like more 2 than one inmate so it looks like that would be 3 the amount of linens and clothing for two 4 inmates? 5 MR. Well, probably a couple of 6 extra sheets in there. 7 MR. And do you know if 8 Epstein was provided extra sheets than he was 9 supposed to have been provided? 10 MR. He shouldn't have. 11 MR. Can you just explain to 12 me, how does that work? How does the process 13 14 MR. : Well, when the inmate comes 15 into the Special Housing Unit, we give them two 16 sheets, one blanket. When they do the showers, 17 we should go in there - initial these two? 18 MR. Please. Not all of them, 19 we just need the top picture. 20 MR. When we should go - when we 21 go in there when we bring them out to the 22 shower, we should go in there and shake it 23 down, that's when we go in there and take 24 anything extra that they're not supposed to 25 have. EFTA00116236

178 1 MR. So if he took a shower 2 that day on August 9th - so you believe from 3 looking at those pictures, he actually had even 4 more than if it were just him and Reyes, he had 5 some extra 6 MR. Yes, he probably had like 7 two extra blankets. 8 MR. Is that an issue? 9 MR. They should never have 10 that. 11 MR. Okay. So, if that cell 12 was searched on August 9th, at that point, 13 someone should have removed them? 14 MR. Yes. Somebody should 15 remove all the extra, left him with what he's 16 supposed to have and nothing more. 17 MR. And on that date, who 18 would have been responsible for doing that? 19 MR. When we brought them out to 20 the shower. 21 MR. So not only do they bring 22 them out to the shower but they also are 23 responsible for (Indiscernible *02:13:15). 24 MR. Correct. Might as well. 25 If you're on the same tier, you put them in the EFTA00116237

179 1 shower, it takes two seconds. 2 So where is the shower? 3 Are the showers on the same tier? 4 MR. Yes. 5 MR. Okay. 6 MR. So on that tier, if you 7 look at his cell, right to the right. 8 MR. So -. 9 MR. This is the shower here. 10 MR. Okay. Like there? 11 MR. Yeah. 12 MR. Okay. So it's kind of 13 like almost in the middle or the start is like 14 almost like the second door. 15 MR. Yes. 16 MR. : This one? 17 MR. No, it's actually, see this 18 little gate? 19 MR. (Indiscernible 20 *02:13:46). 21 MR. You can't really see it. 22 MR. Can you see it from here? 23 MR. No. 24 MR. Like it's the start of 25 the tier? EFTA00116238

180 1 MR. Yeah. So if you come in, 2 you walk in, you kind of make a right turn. 3 You see this gate right here? 4 MR. : Maybe I'll have you - if 5 you can mark it on either SHU map here that 6 we're going to - I'm going to show you for a 7 second just so you can - I'm going to ask you 8 about like the cameras and what cameras should 9 have been in there, that kind of stuff, so you 10 can just show me where. So do you know if 11 Epstein was provided any of these special 12 privileges to have extra clothing or linen? 13 MR. No, I know he should not 14 have. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. But he always asked for a 17 clean uniform every time he showered. 18 Would he give his other 19 uniform -- 20 MR. es. 21 MR. -- back though? 22 MR. es. 23 MR. So what is your believe 24 on why he would have had extra blankets? 25 MR. Somebody who doesn't EFTA00116239

181 1 normally work SHU just said, "Okay," or he 2 probably asked for one because he was cold. 3 MR.-: And how would people that 4 worked in the SHU know what the rules were with 5 as far as exchanging your linens and your 6 clothing? 7 MR. Well, we talk about it. 8 Two sheets, one blanket. 9 MR. Is that not provided at 10 training? 11 MR. I don't remember. I don't 12 think that's in the SHU training, but it also 13 tells you not to have an excess of linen inside 14 the SHU. 15 MR. The training does? 16 MR. es. 17 MR. Okay. So at training, 18 they do say they're not supposed to have, you 19 know, extra? 20 MR. -Correct. 21 MR. And then, from working in 22 the SHU, would it be the OIC to tell people, 23 (Indiscernible *02:15:10). 24 MR. The OIC or anybody who kind 25 of -. EFTA00116240

182 1 MR. Works in there? 2 MR. Because OIC is not always 3 there, so. 4 MR. All right. During 5 showers, who would have been working on August 6 9, 2019 looking at the daily assignment roster? 7 MR. Would have been 8 and myself. 9 MR. Okay. As far as, did you 10 notice that there was an extra mattress in 11 Epstein's cell. 12 MR. There's one on the floor. 13 MR. Yes. We're told that 14 Epstein actually had two mattresses, one on the 15 floor, one on the bottom bunk and then Reyes 16 had one as well. Would that be abnormal that 17 he was provided two mattresses? 18 MR. Definitely shouldn't have 19 happened. Somebody probably felt bad for him 20 because he maybe said his back hurts. 21 MR. Do you know where Epstein 22 slept? 23 MR. Well, this only shows two 24 right here. 25 MR. It's the height of the EFTA00116241

183 1 mattress. 2 MR. I think he slept on the bed 3 and Reyes slept on the floor. 4 MR. Oh, that's your belief? 5 MR. I think so. 6 MR. Oh, we were told the 7 opposite. 8 MR. Opposite? 9 MR. So you believe Reyes was 10 actually on the floor? 11 MR. I think so. 12 MR. Okay. But if they had - 13 if there in fact were three mattresses in there 14 -. 15 MR. There weren't supposed to 16 be three mattresses in there. 17 MR. 18 that happened? 19 MR. When and how would have Maybe one of them wasn't 20 thick enough, somebody else gave him another 21 one or they just didn't see the mattress 22 because a lot of times, the inmates put it on 23 the wall and if you don't physically go inside 24 the cell, you just give them another mattress. 25 MR. : So it - how would they EFTA00116242

184 1 explain the fact that they didn't have a 2 mattress? 3 One would be standing 4 against the wall. 5 MR. : But, I mean, would they 6 say like somebody came in and took it? 7 MR. No, just sometimes we move 8 mattresses around because we're going to put 9 two inmates over there. They only have one, 10 then we'll take it. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 MR. problem if there are MR. depending who is MR. MR. Okay. Is that a big extra mattresses then? You're not supposed to, in charge that's there -- Yeah. -- and at night time, if but you don't want to deal with it - well, not me or - but if some people don't want to deal with it, like, "All right, here's another mattress." MR. So what's the purpose of making sure that inmates only have one mattress as well as the correct amount of linens and 23 blankets? 24 MR. Well, the linen because 25 just so we can have for everybody. The EFTA00116243

185 1 mattress, the same thing, you only have one 2 mattress, that's all you're allowed. 3 MR. Are there any kind of 4 security issues that go along with it? 5 MR. Unless it's a troubled 6 inmate, they'll put the mattress to barricade 7 the door. 8 MR. No, I mean like is there 9 any security issues that go along with making 10 sure an inmate doesn't have extra linens or 11 doesn't have extra blankets, is something, 12 like, to do with, like, potentially escaping or 13 harming themselves or anything like that. Is 14 that ever taught or do you know anything about 15 that? Or was it more of an administrative 16 thing? 17 MR. It's more an administrative 18 thing. 19 MR. : Okay. So your 20 understanding was administrative, nothing to do 21 with like harming themselves or escaping. 22 MR. : Right. I don't think the 23 mattress or linen have anything to do with 24 that. 25 MR. : Okay. Who did you say EFTA00116244

186 1 was responsible for making sure that inmates 2 had the correct amount of linens and mattresses 3 and things? 4 MR. Everybody. 5 MR. Everybody? 6 MR. Everybody. 7 MR. Okay. What - can you 8 just explain - we're going to move to the next 9 one. What - did you want to follow up on 10 anything with that? 11 MR. No, no. 12 MR. Can you explain cell 13 rotations in the SHU for me? 14 MR. : Cell rotations have to be 15 conducted every 21 days. 16 MR. Every 21 days? 17 MR. es. 18 MR. And is that like every 21 19 days from the time that the inmate arrives at 20 the SHU or is it like on a set schedule, this 21 is the day, this is the 21st day? 22 MR. GRIJALVA: From the inmate arrives to 23 the cell. 24 MR. : Okay. So every inmate is 25 different. EFTA00116245

187 1 MR. So if an inmate comes in 2 and he's assigned to cell 101 today, within 21 3 days or at 21 days, he needs to move to another 4 cell that is not cell 101. 5 MR. Okay. And who is 6 responsible for kind of making sure that that 7 happens? 8 MR. IIIIIIII: The Lieutenant should 9 oversee but usually we all go and assist them 10 and we have a print out of the 21 - "Oh, this 11 guy is on 18 days, it's time for him to move." 12 "Oh, this guy is on 21 days, let's move him." 13 MR. So is it has to be done 14 by 21 days, it can be done prior to 21? Is 15 that what you're saying? 16 MR. Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. So it's not like 18 the OIC's responsibility, it's everybody's 19 joint responsibility? 20 MR. Yes. As long as you're not 21 in the same cell for more than 21 days, you can 22 move every 15 and you can move every 10 as long 23 as it doesn't go over 21. 24 MR. So, who is like checking 25 to make sure that that's done or is it some EFTA00116246

188 1 kind of an alert that is provided? 2 MR. Excuse me. Usually the OIC 3 and the Lieutenant. 4 MR. MIRRIIIRILIF Are the ones saying, "Let 5 these go." Yeah. 6 MR. "Hey, we got to move these 7 guys." The Lieutenant goes like, "Hey, OIC, 8 you got to get these guys moved." 9 MR. All right. And then 10 after they're moved, who is responsible for 11 keying the movement? 12 MR. Well, the OIC could do it - 13 - 14 MR. Okay. 15 MR. -- but usually we'll call 16 Control. 17 MR. So Control or the OIC? 18 MR. Yes. 19 MR. All right. As the OIC 20 though, is that kind of like your job every 21 21 days to make sure and then you can either call 22 Control or is it -. 23 MR. : Well, I used to do it on my 24 own because I can 25 MR. : Right, right. EFTA00116247

189 1 MR. Instead of calling Control, 2 waiting five minutes for them to pick up, I 3 just do it on my own. 4 MR. : Now are you aware that 5 Epstein was in the wrong cell on August 9th and 6 10th of 2019? 7 MR. No. 8 MR. And so he was in cell 220 9 as we just discussed and in the system he's 10 logged in at 206L. Do you know anything about 11 that? 12 MR. I actually found that out 13 the week after. 14 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:20:49) 15 so, if you found out, do you know why that is, 16 like what happened? Because obviously the 17 conspiracy theorists are going to be all over 18 that if that gets out, that he was in the wrong 19 cell. So, do you know if it would have been 20 one of those things that - was he ever moved or 21 was he just moved in the system or vice versa? 22 Do you know how that 23 MR. I think -. 24 MR. -- discrepancy happened? 25 MR. I think what happened was EFTA00116248

190 1 when he was moved up from suicide watch, he was 2 placed in, let's say, 206. And then, after he 3 went to attorney conference, when they got him 4 with his bunkie - I mean, once, let's say, he 5 went - he did go to attorney conference, "Okay, 6 he's coming back, we're going to put him with 7 this bunkie," we're just going to move him and 8 somebody forgot to key him in to the right 9 cell. 10 MR. So do you know if Epstein 11 was ever in a different cell other than 220? 12 MR. IIIIIIIII No. He was actually with 13 Tartaglione. 14 MR. So that was - so when he 15 was with Tartaglione prior to July 23rd, he was 16 actually in a different cell? 17 MR. Yes. 18 MR. Is that listed on that? 19 Does it show? 20 MR. Trying to remember what 21 cell is downstairs right from above that one. 22 MR. Well, I have a list of 23 the SHU map if that helps you out. It's the 24 first and second floor. I can't remember which 25 one is the first page and - I would just assume EFTA00116249

191 1 that whatever L Tier is on, that's the second 2 floor, correct? 3 MR. : Yes. Now -. 4 MR. So the letter corresponds -. 5 MR. The numbers are off -- 6 MR. Yeah. 7 MR. -- on that for some 8 reason. 9 MR. Definitely. 10 MR. And we all - and we can't 11 explain that, why that SHU map shows the wrong 12 letters or the wrong numbers, I mean. Seems 13 like they say the wrong - they show the wrong 14 or the correct letters although the numbers 15 appear to be wrong. 16 MR. This is also - I'm not - is 17 this the second floor? 18 MR. : Here, let me see. 19 MR. I'm not 20 MR. : My understanding would be 21 since this says, "L," that this would be the 22 second floor and this would be the first floor. 23 Is H, K, M, are they on the first floor? 24 MR. Yes. H is on the bottom. 25 MR. So H is on the - H is not EFTA00116250

192 1 even on the same thing as K and M? Oh yeah -- 2 MR. They're on 3 MR. -- because this is 4 showing -- 5 MR. They're on -. 6 MR. -- stairs, so I guess - 7 so is this like - this is what you're - is 8 there like three levels then? 9 MR. No, there's only two, but 10 so H is downstairs, GT is right upstairs and 11 then there's J, K, L, M. 12 MR. So does this not make 13 sense the way that this is -. 14 MR. o, not really. 15 MR. So, okay. So even 16 looking at this, this doesn't even add up 17 MR. No. 18 MR. -- the way you're looking 19 at it? 20 MR. Because this is the 21 officer's station and the office is the second 22 floor G Tier. This is a weird - but he 23 MR. So this doesn't add up to 24 you? So we're going to have to see about 25 getting a different SHU map. EFTA00116251

193 1 MR. No. 2 MR. But, from your 3 understanding, does this kind of look right 4 though? If this is the officer's station over 5 there, is this where -- 6 MR. o 7 Epstein was housed? 8 Looking at it that way? 9 MR. No, so this is the office. 10 That probably means the Lieutenant's office 11 which is on the second floor -- 12 MR. So that's the LT's 13 office? 14 MR. -- right next to G Tier. 15 Correct. 16 MR. : Okay. So that's where 17 MR. And then recreation -- 18 MR. • • we thought this was 19 MR. -- would be downstairs. 20 MR. : So this office and this 21 are not even on the same floor? 22 MR. No. This is on the second 23 floor and this is downstairs. 24 MR. All right. 25 MR. So these might be the EFTA00116252

194 1 original blue prints where the rooms might have 2 been changed over time. 3 MR. All right. Yeah, we're 4 probably going to have to just as the SIA to 5 give us a tour. Where - so if this is - if 6 we're going to assume that this is the second 7 floor -- 8 MR. That's if -. 9 MR. 10 MR. That's LT and then the 11 officer's station should be right here. 12 MR. Right here? 13 MR. ecause I could look up to 14 the office. 15 MR. So I'm going to write : -- because it has L. 16 this circle where you're pointing and just put 17 OS for Officer's Station. And this would be 18 Epstein? 19 MR. Yes. 20 MR. I11 write E there. 21 MR. And this is the shower 22 MR. Does -. 23 MR. -- like I was telling 24 earlier. 25 MR. Oh, so this is the shower EFTA00116253

195 1 here? All right, so shower is actually outside 2 of the tier. 3 MR. Yes. 4 MR. Shower. And then, if 5 this is 220, where would 206 be? 6 MR. 19, 18 -- 7 MR. It's all the way down? 8 MR. -- 17, 16, 15, 14, 13. 9 MR. Or is there even? I 10 mean, this sheet says 206 -. 11 MR. How many cells are in there? 12 MR. There's four on one side 13 and four on the opposite side. 14 MR. And would you understand 15 it to mean 206L for 206 L Tier? 16 MR. No, 206 is lower. That's 17 the -. 18 MR. Oh, so this wouldn't even 19 mean that he was on the L Tier. 206 -. 20 MR. Lower and then like upper. 21 MR. Because this is where it 22 says, if I'm reading this correctly, does it 23 say that on 8/10/2019 that's where he should 24 have been assigned -- 25 MR. Correct. EFTA00116254

196 1 MR. -- 206 lower? Does that 2 show you at all - it says, "Z range," right? 3 MR. Yeah. So -. 4 MR. What does that -- 5 MR. So -. 6 MR. show you that where 7 it's saying that is that he was assigned? And 8 it seems like he had a lot of assignments in 9 there. 10 MR. So H is the suicide watch. 11 MR. Okay. So where it says, 12 "H," next to -. 13 MR. : So he went from 201, which 14 that's G Tier, to suicide watch on the 8th of 15 August, then he went to SHU. 16 MR. The 8th of August? 17 MR. Of July, I'm sorry, of 18 July. DOS. 19 MR. So July 23rd is when he 20 should have been placed in the -. 21 MR. hat's when actually -. 22 MR. And July 30th he should 23 have returned. 24 MR. July 23rd he was in suicide 25 watch. EFTA00116255

197 1 MR. Right. 2 MR. July 29th, he went to SHU - 3 - 4 MR. What -. 5 MR. -- and -. 6 MR. What cell was he placed in? 7 MR. 206 on July 29th. Then 8 hmm. He has - so he was never placed on 220. 9 We never keyed him in to 220. 10 MR. Well, does it show that 11 he was in 206 ever since the time he came back? 12 MR. Yeah. 13 MR. ould you -. 14 MR. So it says the 29th he was 15 in H001 then the next day - the next date would 16 be 206. 17 MR. And by the number 206, 18 does that tell you at all where that is in the 19 SHU? 20 MR. 206, I have to -. 21 MR. I mean, do they - is it 22 so each tier doesn't have like their own 23 number? Is it just, you know, 206 could be 24 like G Tier or 25 MR. So I think - little EFTA00116256

198 1 confusing because I think it goes H Tier is 2 one, two, three, four, these are all four, 205, 3 five, six, then this one should be 06, L Tier 4 should be 06. 5 MR. L Tier -- 6 MR. I have to see it. 7 MR. -- should be 206? 8 MR. I have to see it, sorry. 9 MR. Yeah, yeah, and I get it. 10 MR. See, because it's a little 11 confusing. 12 MR. : Trying to - absolutely. 13 MR. Because the way they have 14 it is the opposite. Like one is on the bottom, 15 two is on top and then three back to the 16 bottom, four to the top. 17 MR. Yeah, so we'll definitely 18 have to check on that. But do you know, was he 19 even ever in 206 after he returned from suicide 20 watch? 21 MR. If -. 22 MR. So he returned from 23 suicide watch, it sounds like, like you just 24 said, on the 29th of July. I guess I thought 25 it was the 30th based upon that email. So the EFTA00116257

199 1 29th of July through August 9th, 21 days does 2 not even elapse. 3 MR. He should be on 220. So he 4 should have got keyed into 220 because that's 5 where 6 MR. So someone -- 7 MR. -- what it says. 8 MR. -- keyed him in 9 incorrectly is what it sounds like? 10 Unless they put him there 11 and said, "Oh, shit, he needs a bunkie and then 12 moved him. But once they moved him, he was 13 never keyed into the right cell. 14 MR. All right. And do you 15 know who would have keyed in the 206? 16 MR. Maybe Control the day they 17 came upstairs? Maybe whoever was working SHU? 18 MR. All right, then -. 19 MR. So probably maybe even me, 20 but I don't think I would put him in the wrong 21 cell. 22 MR So from the time - and 23 you're the one that put him in the cell? 24 MR. Yeah, like, I wouldn't put 25 him - if you came to 205, that's where I would EFTA00116258

200 1 key you into, 205. 2 MR. So, are you - but are you 3 the one that placed him initially into 220? 4 MR. 5 MR. Do you know who did? 6 MR. I don't remember that. 7 MR. Do you know how it was 8 decided that he went into 220? My 9 understanding is he was placed in that cell 10 because you could see - you could all - you 11 could see his door up front. 12 MR. They put him there so we 13 can see him, but maybe Reyes was in that cell 14 already. 15 MR ' Who made the 16 determination to place him in that cell? 17 MR. I don't know. Not me. 18 Like I said, maybe because Reyes was already in 19 there. 20 MR. Z: Yeah, yeah. 21 MR. Could have been in there, 22 so, you know, it's easier to move him in with 23 Reyes. 24 MR. Oh, yeah. So, that's 25 what I was saying before. I thought the EFTA00116259