101 1 : Yeah. 2 : So, not the monitor 3 : Oh, no. 4 : -- but the actual computer 5 itself. 6 : Yeah, like on the side. 7 : And not only, obviously, 8 that's a big orange document, was it the same 9 size as what we're showing you or is that 10 enlarged? 11 : It was -- 12 : The same size as -- 13 : -- the same exact -. 14 : -- as a regular piece of 15 paper. 16 : That, but a little bright 17 orange paper with black letter. 18 : So roughly 11" by 12" or 19 13" or whatever those are. Okay. And so 20 obviously that's a notice for everyone. Do you 21 remember on August 9th though specifically 22 talking with anyone about conducting rounds on 23 Epstein? 24 : It was something we spoke 25 about every day. EFTA00060473

102 1 2 3 : Oh, you did. : Like -- : There were conversations, 4 "Make sure you -." 5 : -- "Hey, look, this guy is 6 still here. He's right there," you know, 7 "Let's make sure -." 8 : Even though he was in 9 attorney conference though? 10 : No. Make sure we're doing 11 rounds. And everybody spoke about it, "Make 12 sure we're doing round, make sure we're doing 13 rounds." 14 : So even though he's gone 15 for the majority of your day at least, was that 16 something, you know, when you were like leaving 17 your shift, would you have said, "Hey, make 18 sure 19 : Oh, yeah. Yeah. 20 : -- you know, for God, 21 make sure." 22 : Hell yeah. And, everybody 23 already got like from the Warden, Lieutenants, 24 "Hey, make sure you guys do your rounds." 25 : So that was going to be EFTA00060474

103 1 my next question. So, who else was instructing 2 you on doing rounds and specifically doing 3 rounds on Epstein? 4 : Everybody. 5 : And can you remember -- 6 : So -. 7 : -- any specific direction 8 coming from anyone? 9 : So, Warden used to 10 walk around a lot in SHU and he say, "Hey, make 11 sure you guys keep an eye on him," pretty much 12 directly, but in the indirectly telling us to 13 do our job. 14 : Right. 15 : Same thing with Lieutenant 16 . He used to walk around, "Hey guys, make 17 sure you do your rounds." And, you know, 18 , the same thing, "Hey, make 19 sure you guys do rounds." 20 : Now being that you were 21 the OIC and was the SHU Lieutenant, can 22 you remember any specific conversations with 23 him with regard to Epstein and doing rounds or 24 anything? 25 : Well, he used to tell us EFTA00060475

104 1 just, "Make sure you're on top of it. 2 : Do you know from the time 3 that was placed with on July 30th and the 4 need for Epstein to be placed with an inmate, a 5 cellmate. Can you recall any conversations 6 specifically with with regards to Epstein? 7 : I think he told us to put 8 him in with Reyes. Uh-huh. 9 : And again, do you know 10 why he was - Reyes was chosen? Now, I know you 11 said he was an older gentleman 12 : Right. 13 -- and he had a cane or 14 something like that, but I mean, you -- 15 : So I think -. 16 : -- you don't know 17 anything other than the fact that Psychology 18 : Psychology probably 19 recommended him or they looked through the 20 whole SHU roster and felt he was probably the 21 safest person to put him with. 22 : Okay. And do you know if 23 people were conducting rounds on Epstein like 24 your sign said? Because you weren't there when 25 he was there, so do you know if -. EFTA00060476

105 1 : So, after 2 o'clock, they 2 should have been conducting rounds. 3 : Right. 4 : And I don't remember 5 : Well, he would get back 6 around like 8 o'clock, right? 7 : Right. I don't -- 8 : So, like 8:00 p.m. on -. 9 : -- remember if we started 10 showers or not going on but they should - 11 regardless while he was there or not, they 12 should have still continued the rounds. 13 : And I know that they 14 should have, but do you know if they were? 15 : I can't say, "Yes, they 16 did," or, "No, they did not. 17 : But whenever you were 18 there, they were being done? 19 : Yes. 20 : Okay. 21 : We were all over the place. 22 : All right. So this is 23 where it's going to get a little complicated, 24 so just bear with me. I'm going to show you 25 these count slips from August 9th up until EFTA00060477

106 1 midnight of August 10th. I'm just going to 2 have you help - this is where, remember, I said 3 I was going to help you, you know, put this 4 puzzle together. I believe we already know the 5 answers but I don't want to give you the 6 answers in fear that I'm wrong. So this is 7 from the 5:00 a.m. count to the midnight count 8 and I want to show you the Lieutenant's log 9 which, where is that? So here's the 10 Lieutenant's log. And we didn't print out that 11 paper that I made, did I? 12 : Which one? 13 : The one that I drafted 14 yesterday and said, "Make sure we print this 15 out." All right, so, we'll just start with 16 8:00 a.m., since that's when you came in, so we 17 can actually - the reason I was showing you the 18 5:00 a.m. is because I really wanted you to 19 notice - okay, two. Is ZA the SHU? 20 : Yes. 21 : And so 77 is the total 22 count in the SHU for inmates? 23 24 : Correct. : Then we look back at 25 these count slips and we see - sorry I'm EFTA00060478

107 1 looking over you, but, ZA says -. 2 3 4 "77," correct? 5 : Thomas. : And at 10:00 it says, : Yes. 6 : All right. So we'll put 7 that here. It says on the Lieutenant's log, 8 n77," -- 9 : 77, yes. 10 11 12 correct? All right. So now where are we at? We're at the 4:00 p.m. count. 13 : 4:00 p.m., yes. 14 : Correct? So for ZA, it 15 shows 76 total, right? 16 : Yes. 17 : One in attorney client, 18 brings it down to 75. 19 : Yes. 20 : So what should the count 21 slip reflect then? 22 : At this time? 23 : Yes. 24 : The count, the physical 25 bodies in SHU. EFTA00060479

108 1 : Okay. So it should 2 reflect -- 3 : 75. 4 : -- 75. Okay, great. So 5 here where ZA, ZA shows 75, correct? 6 : Yes. 7 : Okay. Now we're looking 8 at 10:00 p.m. ZA says 73, right? 73 total 9 bodies it says at 10:00 p.m.? Now the ZA - 10 where is it? ZA count slip says, "73 plus 1." 11 First, can you think of any reason why it would 12 say, "Plus 1?" 13 : It shouldn't say, "Plus 1," 14 unless somebody came in at night. 15 : Okay. 16 : But regardless, that 17 shouldn't be like that, it should be 74. 18 : Okay. 19 : Not 73 plus 1. 20 : So this is where you're 21 going to start getting interested. So at 22 midnight, the ZA count says, "72." "72," 23 right? So the count slip says, "73." Now, 24 reviewing this, the E-1 says, "72," same 25 institutional count, says, "72," the count slip EFTA00060480

109 1 still says, "73." Now let's look at this. And 2 granted, you just told us this could have been 3 done later in the day so maybe this wasn't done 4 at the time. 5 : By that time, it should 6 have been done. 7 : So 8:00 a.m. So we have 8 these different places where it says these 9 people were moved. So the 8:30 a.m., do you 10 agree that inmate Reyes was removed and it 11 brings the count down to 76? 12 : Yes. 13 : All right. So we go down 14 to 75. is placed on dry cell from 15 ZA. 16 17 18 19 : Okay. : Moves it down to 75. : -- 75. All right. So 20 that 4:00 should have said - the 4:00 p.m. 21 count should have said -. 22 : Should have been 75. Which 23 is 75. 24 : Right. But, shouldn't 25 have this said, "75?" EFTA00060481

110 1 : No. 2 : Because the 75, one 3 person in attorney, that should be 74, right? 4 : Yes. So this is fine at 5 76. So now -. 6 : But that, isn't that 7 referring to Epstein being in attorney? 8 : Yes. 9 : So, shouldn't this say 75 10 based upon this? 11 : Reyes was moved before that. 12 : Unless -. 13 : So this is at 3:15, the 14 count goes down to 75, so shouldn't this E-1 15 say 75 here? 16 : No, because this guy could 17 have still been doing dry cell in SHU. 18 : Okay. 19 : Meaning, dry cell, he's 20 inside a cell. The water is off, he doesn't 21 have any clothes. He uses the bathroom inside 22 of SHU. 23 : So -. 24 : Let me keep my thought. 25 All right. So then this brings it down. So EFTA00060482

111 1 3:15, now we go over to - it brings it down to 2 74 here, Hemmingway. Brings that count to 74. 3 : He got kicked out. 4 : Reid gets 73. 5 : He got kicked out. 6 : Felix goes down to 71. 7 : Another one -. 8 comes in, goes to 9 72. That's at 8:28 p.m. So 72 is the count at 10 8:28 p.m. ZA still says 73. Now let's look at 11 that. It says now, R&D now has one in it. 12 Fernandez is in R&D dry cell. It actually 13 doesn't even say he's on it in this thing. 14 : No. 15 : But, ZA says, "73," 16 there's no one for that one, correct? 17 : Right. 18 : And this is where it 19 says, "73 plus 1." Would the thought maybe, 20 saying, "73 plus 1," that one being Fernandez 21 on dry cell, and they're using the 22 institutional count 73? 23 : Should have been, if he's 24 in dry cell in SHU, he's counted inside of SHU. 25 : Right. So -. EFTA00060483

112 1 : If he's not in SHU, then he 2 shouldn't be counted. 3 : So he's not in SHU. 4 : Correct. So that means, 5 the count should have been 73. 6 : And should have that 7 count been changed way back here if he's not in 8 SHU? Should have this, like we talked about, 9 this 4:00 p.m. -- 10 : Yes. 11 : -- should have said 75? 12 : Correct. 13 : And why is that? 14 : You count physical bodies. 15 : Physical bodies. You 16 don't count ghost counts or you don't count 17 people that aren't in your -. 18 : No. if you don't see the 19 flesh and it's a stand up count, so every 20 person or inmate, whether it's in SHU or in a 21 unit, they have to stand up for the count and 22 you verify it, one, two, three, four, five, 23 six, then the person behind you has to verify 24 that count. 25 : All right, and so what is EFTA00060484

113 1 your -. 2 : If it's a body there, he 3 gets counted. 4 : What is your opinion then 5 if in fact that at 3:15, is moved out 6 of the SHU and placed -- 7 : Then the count just 8 dropped. 9 and placed into - 10 right. But the fact that the count slip for ZA 11 matches still what the E-1 says. Does that 12 tell you anything about if the count was 13 conducted or not? 14 : It should have been - and 15 everything is should have. So -- 16 : So that should have said 17 - the 4:00 p.m. count should have in fact, if 18 isn't in there, that should have 19 actually said, "74," correct? 20 : Yes. 21 : So does that tell you 22 that they did or did not conduct the count in 23 the SHU? 24 : If they counted 75 physical 25 bodies, then that's a good count. EFTA00060485

114 1 : Right. 2 : But now, if there is not 75 3 physical bodies in the SHU, then they went off 4 whatever it is they were going off and verified 5 it with this paper right here, which not 6 everybody has access to it. This is the E-1 7 that we keep count on. 8 : So would the SHU people 9 that are in the SHU, would they have access to 10 know what the count was for this E-1, what 11 they're utilizing for that count? 12 : No. Unless somebody says, 13 "Hey, you're missing one, your count is 75." 14 : So the only way someone 15 in the SHU would be able to actually know what 16 number to provide is by actually doing the 17 count? 18 : Correct. 19 : Really? All right. So 20 if we know that is now not in the 21 SHU, how are they coming up with that 75 number 22 for 4:00 p.m. and then as well as at 10:00 23 p.m., they're coming up with a wrong number and 24 again at midnight, they're writing down the 25 wrong number. They're writing down the number EFTA00060486

115 1 that they think the institutional count is, but 2 there's not that many people that are actually 3 in SHU. How do we explain that? 4 : So, the only thing I can 5 think of is they put - they locked somebody up 6 between the 4 o'clock count and the 10 o'clock 7 count meaning somebody from the unit did 8 something wrong and they ended up in the 9 Special Housing Unit. So that's how the 10 numbers would be different. 11 : So if we have information 12 that -. 13 : And - sorry to interrupt. 14 : No, go ahead. 15 : Again, everybody is human 16 and everybody makes mistakes, unless somebody 17 write in the log missed one inmate going from a 18 unit out or leaving from SHU to a unit. 19 : Well, that's exactly 20 right. So at 3:15, was never keyed 21 out of the SHU. He wasn't keyed out of the SHU 22 until this count at midnight. 23 : So he was placed in dry 24 cell where? 25 : So, at - he was placed in EFTA00060487

116 1 dry cell at - are R&D and RA the same thing? 2 : Okay. That's right. 3 : Yeah, can you just read 4 what it is that you showed me? 5 : Oh, I'm sorry. 6 : I'm sorry. 7 : -- no -- 8 : Okay. Sorry. 9 : I mean, you should 10 read it, too. 11 : Just, I pointed to the line 12 that states, on the day watch for Friday, 13 August 9th, there's a line that says, "Inmate 14 Fernandez, 86824054 on dry cell with staff 15 watch in R&D." Is R- Agent asked a question. 16 : So, with this knowledge 17 and now also, with like I showed you - or first 18 of all, are count slips for RA and R&D, are 19 they the same thing? 20 : Well it should be just R&D. 21 There's - 22 : Because one was on one of 23 these - let me see. It's at 12:00 a.m. It 24 actually says, "RA." 25 : That should be a B. EFTA00060488

117 1 : Instead of a D? 2 : Yes. It should be a BA 3 which is on the second floor of persons placed 4 on watch, that's where they go. 5 : Should that - instead of 6 saying, "RA," -- 7 : So -. 8 : -- it should say, "BA?" 9 : Correct. If it's 10 : Because that -. 11 : If it's there. But they 12 probably wrote R&D. 13 : Well, it doesn't - so 14 this one says R&D. At 10:00 p.m. there's a 15 count slip from R&D that says, "1." It says 16 that's 17 , yes. 18 : 10:00 p.m. And just from 19 reviewing this stuff, I'm assuming that this 20 one at 10:00 p.m. and this one that says, "RA," 21 at 12:00 a.m. are one in the same. Would that 22 be your logic as well? 23 : Yes. It should have the 24 same number. 25 : So why is it - one say, EFTA00060489

118 1 "RA" and one say "R&D?" 2 : Maybe he spelled the name - 3 spelled it wrong. 4 : All right, so the "RA" is 5 the one that's wrong? 6 : It should have been "R&D." 7 : R&D. 8 : Correct. 9 : Instead of RA. Okay. So 10 this RA is just - but that - you believe that's 11 actually the same 12 : Yes. 13 : -- the same location. 14 : Yes. 15 : All right. So with all 16 that information now, knowing that he's in dry 17 cell, he's out of the SHU, however somehow, 18 their count slips are matching what the 19 institutional counts show, how do we explain 20 that if they don't have access to the 21 institutional count? 22 : Well they shouldn't have 23 access. 24 : Is there a way that they 25 can? Like how would they know to write that EFTA00060490

119 1 number if only, for instance - let's even just 2 talk about 12:00 a.m. Only 72 people are 3 physically in the SHU but they're writing 73 4 and they're off ever since you leave. So 4:00 5 p.m. 6 : 10:00 p.m. 7 : -- 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 8 a.m. counts are all off and we're trying to - 9 this is where we're saying we're hoping that as 10 the OIC you can help us 11 : So -- 12 : -- put that puzzle 13 together. 14 : -- my only assumption would 15 be, whoever was working that night, had access 16 to the E-1, which is that's what we use. 17 : And do you know if - I 18 think you said it was, what, • 19 Who was it that was 20 : I don't think 21 would have access. 22 : But they're not actually 23 supposed to have access? 24 : Correct. 25 : So yeah, I'm just trying EFTA00060491

120 1 to -- 2 : And -. 3 : -- rectify this thing. 4 : Unless they cheated and 5 said, "Hey, how many do we have up here?" 6 That's my only - it's either they had access, 7 they looked at it. 8 : Because we've also been 9 told at least by one of these people that they 10 write the count slips before ever doing the 11 count. So how would they know what number to 12 put in the count slips if they didn't actually 13 do the count? 14 : So they shouldn't and my 15 other explanation is they actually did have the 16 bodies, but one of them was in SHU and was 17 never written on the log. So now, there's this 18 other thing called a PP-38 that shows who goes 19 in and outside of the building and what moves 20 are being made inside the building. 21 : So would that help us 22 rectify this? 23 : That would actually help 24 you because it would - that's our little cheat 25 sheet, like I told you before, that we log in EFTA00060492

121 1 during the day or right before I get relieved 2 at 2 o'clock, I'm going to print out that PP- 3 38, it's going to show me every inmate movement 4 in the building and whatever specific date I 5 wanted. So if I'm doing today, three from SHU 6 just saying, "Left to another institution, to 7 Brooklyn." On that PP-38, it would say, 8 "Jones, Smith, Roberts moved to Brooklyn." So 9 now, I go that, I have 757, I just lost three. 10 Now I'm going down to 754. And just like it is 11 here, inmate 123 left to Brooklyn so now my 12 numbers go down. Again, we're all human, 13 sometimes there's a lot of movement, we might 14 miss one or two. So this right here -. 15 : But if these numbers 16 appear to all add up starting the day at 77 -- 17 : Correct. 18 : I showed you at 5:00 19 a.m., then I can show you all the way through 20 after Epstein, you know, died, where I'm 21 assuming they definitely did the counts because 22 there's a - here's one that was done at 11:00 23 a.m., I guess that was the 10:00 a.m. count on 24 Saturday -- 25 : On Saturday, yes. EFTA00060493

122 1 : -- as well as the 5:00 2 p.m. count on Saturday. They're now all adding 3 up with what the numbers claim to be on this 4 Lieutenant's log. So, I'm assuming if they 5 were wrong on the Lieutenant's log and right on 6 this, that would be reflected in these later 7 counts, correct? 8 : Yes. Yes. 9 : So that - so I'll 10 definitely get this document that you just 11 suggested, but does this information suggest to 12 you that the counts were or were not conducted 13 in the SHU? 14 : I think they were conducted 15 wrong. If the names - the only way I would 16 actually confirm it is the 38. Because an 17 inmate could be in SHU, he's already keyed in 18 SHU. Maybe he's on staff watch, it's still in 19 SHU. 20 : Right. 21 : So there's no need to key 22 him out. 23 : And the 38 will be able 24 to tell you this? 25 : Correct. The 38 will be EFTA00060494

123 1 able to tell you if inmate Smith, inmate 2 , was keyed out of SHU. 3 : Okay. Now -. 4 : And it would reflect on 5 this. So if the 38 - if you keyed out an 6 inmate, the count would be different. It would 7 be 75 and that's a hundred percent accurate 8 comparing everything. 9 : Yeah, so in talking with 10 the Lieutenant, Ops Lieutenant that was on at 11 midnight, that person said, "Fernandez was 12 never keyed out," and that's why the counts 13 were off, and she keyed him out at midnight and 14 placed him over. Does that give you any more 15 indication? 16 : So, that means -- 17 : So, (Indiscernible 18 *01:31:29). 19 : -- the counts weren't 20 conducted correctly -- 21 : Yeah, so -- 22 -- until -. 23 • so the Ops Lieutenant 24 at midnight says, "Hey, I found this 25 discrepancy. This inmate Fernandez was place EFTA00060495

124 1 on dry cell. I had to verify that that's in 2 fact where the person was. I had to key him 3 out of SHU and place him into there." 4 : That's the reason you got a 5 later 6 : Yeah. 7 : -- out count for R&D. 8 : Yeah. That's the reason 9 for the change at midnight. 10 : Yes. 11 : And that, to me, tells me 12 that's the reason why all these counts were 13 actually wrong. 14 : Correct. And they were 15 just written - somebody must have had access to 16 this and -. 17 : Right. But as far as you 18 know, no one actually knows how many inmates 19 are actually in there unless you actually count 20 them? 21 : Correct. You have to count 22 them. 23 : Yes. 24 : You can't assume -. 25 : That's - so it would just EFTA00060496

125 1 kind of like them trying to keep track or 2 something on a piece of paper doing adding and 3 subtracting? Would that be a possible way that 4 they would get the count that they're using? 5 : So, the way you count -. 6 : If they're not actually 7 counting, and they're 8 : They're assuming -. 9 : -- just - because -- 10 : They're - they're 11 : -- one of these people, 12 again, told us, "I write the count slips before 13 I ever do the counts." 14 : So, if that person has 15 access or that person just assumes that the 16 count that started in the morning - because we 17 don't count at 10 o'clock in the morning during 18 Monday through Friday -- 19 : Yeah. 20 : -- unless it's a holiday. 21 : Right. 22 : So if the count at 5 23 o'clock in the morning was 75, not me 24 personally, the person could have said, "I'm 25 going to go with that count unless I see EFTA00060497

126 1 somebody leaving," and just -- 2 : So -. 3 : -- it is a possibility that 4 person, he or she, could have wrote it. 5 : So, for instance, at the 6 4:00 p.m. count, someone would have gone off of 7 the 5:00 a.m. count -- 8 : In the morning, yes. 9 : -- and just how many 10 people they remembered that came and went? 11 : Correct. 12 : As a - okay. But it's 13 not like they knew what the institutional count 14 would actually have been. 15 : Correct, unless whoever was 16 there had access to this. 17 : So let's look at the 4:00 18 p.m. then. 19 : And this is called the PP- 20 El. 21 : So at 4:00 p.m. count, 22 this is August 9th. That's ZA, it looks like 23 it was signed by who? 24 : Noel and 25 : Does have access? EFTA00060498

127 1 : That I wouldn't be able to 2 tell you if he did or didn't. He has more time 3 than she does. So it could have been a 4 possibility that he had access. 5 : Okay. And being that 6 this number lists 75 whereas we believe it 7 should have been 74 -- 8 : Yes. 9 : -- do you believe that 10 they actually conducted that count? 11 : My - I would give them the 12 benefit of the doubt that they did. 13 : Okay. And how would the 14 come - if they actually did, how would they get 15 the wrong number and specifically the number 16 that the institution had? 17 : They didn't have everybody 18 stand up and just assumed that they were right. 19 : So I guess that's what 20 I'm asking is, if they actually didn't conduct 21 the count, (Indiscernible *01:34:37) -. 22 : They could have just walked 23 around, looked in but not actually -. 24 : And that's what I mean, 25 and that's where in the beginning I was saying, EFTA00060499

128 1 "What's the difference between a count and a 2 round," so a count, you're actually counting 3 the inmates, correct? 4 : So the way you're supposed 5 to do -. 6 : Not just conducting a 7 round. 8 : Correct. If you're doing a 9 stand up count which every count is a stand up 10 count, you stand at the door, acknowledge your 11 presence, stand up count, okay, is 12 standing up, Smith is standing up, that's two. 13 I go all the way around, I do that to every 14 single cell, the eight cells. By the time I 15 get to the end, I counted 15, I write 15. Then 16 the next person behind me has to do the same 17 exact thing. Most likely, they start from this 18 way, the opposite way and not - and actually 19 count and you confirm the number, "I got 15, 20 how many you got?" "I got 14." "Oh, okay, now 21 we got to count again." Everybody stand up. 22 Now we have the same count, write down 15, we 23 go down to next tier. That's how a count 24 should be conducted. 25 : Okay. But is that how EFTA00060500

129 1 they were conducted in the SHU? 2 3 we were there. 4 : That's how I did them when : Okay. So as far as this 5 one though, if they actually conducted the 6 count, and I get that you're giving them the 7 benefit of the doubt, would you find it 8 extremely coincidental that they got the same 9 number that the institution had which were both 10 wrong? 11 : So if they did conduct the 12 count, they would have had the numbers wrong 13 from the institution. 14 : So the institution had it 15 wrong and they have everybody keyed and the one 16 guy never was keyed out. 17 : So, the institution -. 18 : And they just 19 coincidentally got the same exact number that 20 the institution had. 21 : So if the institution - the 22 institution would only know if it was keyed 23 out. 24 : That's what I'm saying. 25 That's what I'm saying. EFTA00060501

130 1 : Correct. 2 : So the institution didn't 3 know because somebody didn't key out Fernandez. 4 : They probably -. 5 : But -. 6 : They probably fucked up and 7 didn't actually count and just wrote it - it 8 comes down to that. Excuse my language, but -. 9 : No, then that's what I'm 10 assuming happened but I just want - I want to 11 know from you, why? Why do you believe that? 12 : Laziness maybe. 13 : No, no, no, no, no, why 14 do you - so, why do you believe -. 15 : So sorry. 16 : What makes you believe 17 that the count wasn't conducted? I basically 18 gave you the answer. But, like, I'm just 19 looking for you, if you're agreeing with my 20 logic and if that actually is the same logic 21 you have. I'm not trying to provide you that 22 answer, I'm just trying to see, like, "Hey, in 23 your -." 24 : So they -. 25 : You're the OIC, you're EFTA00060502

131 1 the expert in this matter basically. Does this 2 information tell you that that count wasn't 3 done? 4 : Yes. It does tell me that 5 the count was not done and they just assumed 6 and went by the cheat sheet 7 : Okay. 8 : -- because the body wasn't 9 even there. 10 : But going back to what 11 you said before, they don't actually have a 12 cheat sheet, they'd have to just kind of guess? 13 : Go off the count that was 14 at 5 o'clock in the morning if it was the same 15 number. Or they logged in where there was -. 16 : And there's no log that 17 can - there's no screen that they can say who's 18 logged into this right now, who's there, what's 19 our total count in here? 20 : No, it's just a - E - well, 21 that, no, that part, because I can log in and 22 tell you how much - how many inmates every unit 23 has right now. 24 : Because you're a 25 Lieutenant. EFTA00060503

132 1 : Without physically 2 counting. Yes. 3 : But what about the people 4 that work in the SHU? 5 : If you work Control before, 6 you would have that access. 7 : Right. Oh, so if you've 8 been in Control prior to that date. 9 : Correct. You would have 10 access. 11 : So, if for instance, if 12 worked in Control, he could have access 13 - 14 : Yes. 15 : -- to see, what's the 16 number. 17 : If she worked in Control 18 two days prior, she would have access because 19 that's what you do in Control. You 20 : When you say, "She," are 21 you talking about Tova Noel? 22 : Correct, Noel. If she 23 worked in Control before, she would have 24 access, and the reason they give us access - 25 well, all the Lieutenants have access, but the EFTA00060504

133 1 reason they give the officers access is because 2 you work in Control and you have to print out 3 this sheet, which is the E-1 that gives all the 4 numbers of all the units. 5 : Okay. 6 : So if worked there 7 before, he would have access and he would have, 8 you know 9 : Would he have indefinite 10 access? When do they take that access away? 11 : Usually when we have 12 program review and unless you're assigned to 13 Control, you cannot have access -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- and they just take it 16 back from you. 17 : All right. So is it - am 18 I understanding correctly, likely someone 19 worked in Control and had access and they 20 looked to see what the institutional count was 21 and they just wrote that down? 22 : Yes. 23 : Okay. But you do believe 24 that this - what did you call it, 38, is 25 : PP-38. EFTA00060505

134 1 -- will help us? 2 : That has more - that paper 3 would not lie. 4 : And is that paper what 5 the Lieutenants use to fill out their logs? 6 : Yes. 7 : Okay. And as far as the 8 Lieutenant log goes though, that could have 9 been created at any time though during the day 10 and specifically after all the stuff actually 11 happened? 12 : Yes. 13 : All right. And would it 14 be likely that it was created once the 15 Lieutenant at midnight actually noticed this 16 discrepancy, would they have the ability to go 17 in and then correct everything? 18 : Yes. So now we have a day 19 watch Lieutenant log, an evening watch 20 Lieutenant log, and a morning watch Lieutenant 21 log. 22 : So would this - would the 23 - let's say, would the morning watch at 24 midnight have access to the day before 25 Lieutenant log? EFTA00060506

135 1 2 3 4 : Yes. : So they -- : Yes. : -- could actually go in - 5 so the person 6 : And fix it. 7 : -- that worked at 8 midnight on August 10th could have gone into 9 August 9th and fixed everything? 10 : Correct, the discrepancies 11 on the numbers. 12 : Okay. 13 : Yes. 14 : All right. 15 : Or correct based on the 38. 16 : Right. And they probably 17 referenced the 38 to fill out the -- 18 19 20 : Yes, because if you saw : -- Lieutenant's log. : -- on the 38 you had - 21 again, let's say Fernandez wasn't on the 22 Lieutenant's log but then on the 38 you saw 23 that he moved to R&D, you go back and key him 24 out because the numbers have to be accurate by 25 the time of every shift, the ending of every EFTA00060507

136 1 shift. 2 : Right. And when we read 3 this for this Fernandez on dry cell with staff 4 watching R&D, is it possible that Fernandez was 5 in SHU dry watch and then later in the day 6 moved to R&D dry watch? 7 : He could have went from a 8 unit into dry watch or Special Housing, SHU, to 9 dry watch. 10 : How does that typically 11 work? If you're on dry watch, is there a 12 reason for them to bring you from the SHU on 13 dry watch to R&D on dry watch or would it 14 typically just go right from the SHU to dry 15 watch in R&D? 16 : It would go - there's no 17 reason to take you out of SHU -- 18 : Yeah, why would -. 19 : -- unless you're short 20 staffed. 21 : Okay. 22 : If there's two -. 23 : So in this case, do you 24 believe they were short staffed? 25 : Yes, because there was only EFTA00060508

137 1 two officers and one on morning watch. 2 : Okay. And morning watch, 3 right. So what about the day watch? 4 : Then you're supposed to 5 have four officers in SHU during the day. If 6 it would have been three, then removing one 7 officer would have left it with just two 8 officers in SHU. So if you have just three 9 officers and I'm going to put, for example, 10 Officer to do dry watch and I'm 11 sitting there and I cannot move, I have to 12 watch this inmate throughout the whole day. 13 : So with that being said, 14 do you believe it's more likely than not that 15 he was moved to the dry cell in R&D at 3, 16 whatever time we 17 18 said it was, 3:15? : It could have been. : Or because it does 19 because at 3:15, it says, "Fernandez -- 20 21 22 from ZA." 23 24 25 he left. : From. : -- placed on dry cell : SHU, that's SHU. : So to me, it looks like EFTA00060509

138 1 : So, he was -. 2 : So according to this, 3 it's saying he left -- 4 : SHU. 5 : SHU. 6 : Yes. So he should have 7 been keyed out from Special Housing -- 8 : And who was -- 9 : -- at that time. 10 : -- responsible for keying 11 him out? 12 : Control or the OIC in SHU. 13 : And who would have been 14 the OIC at that time after you left? 15 : At that time, it should 16 have been because he came in at 4:00. 17 No. , he had - would have been more 18 experienced because he worked that floor, so if 19 anything, it should have been , but 20 anybody from SHU could call Control, "Control, 21 I just lost Fernandez," in that case, "Key him 22 out for me." "Okay." 23 : Okay. So the people that 24 are in the SHU may not have been able to do it 25 themselves is what you're saying? EFTA00060510

139 1 : Correct. 2 : So they should have 3 contacted Control? 4 5 6 made that 7 : Yes. : And Control should have : Made that change, yes. 8 : All right. 9 : But now, Control cannot 10 make the change if they do not know about it. 11 : Right. And in this case, 12 we know that that key - the key - he wasn't 13 keyed out until midnight -- 14 : Correct. 15 -- so likely that 16 notification wasn't made. 17 : Right. They probably just 18 took him down to R&D, like if he was leaving 19 the building, made out count for him and just 20 forgot about him. 21 : And that 38 would verify 22 if Fernandez in fact was gone from the SHU at 23 3:15 p.m.? 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. So we got to get EFTA00060511

140 1 that 38. 2 : Where can we access that 38? 3 : On SENTRY. 4 : SENTRY has it? 5 : Yes. 6 : All right. Is there 7 anything else before we move on, kind of -. 8 : You covered that. 9 : We kind of really covered 10 it. I just wanted to make sure. That was kind 11 of the primary reason for - I wanted to make 12 sure what your opinion was on that whole thing 13 and specifically if that indicates to you that 14 those counts were not actually conducted. And 15 again, for my understanding, from your 16 response, you believe now that they were not 17 conducted, correct? 18 : Correct. 19 : And that's if 20 was in fact moved at 3:15. 21 : Right. 22 : All right. Just, I know 23 there's a lot of documents. Can you just make 24 sure that whatever we reviewed here, just 25 initialing, date the tops of them. EFTA00060512

141 1 2 Now, right? 3 : Did you show him the 5:30? : Yeah, because I showed 4 him that that was the good count for the 5 counts. It started that day. 6 : You got one more. 7 : It's been pain in the ass, 8 man. 9 : Yes, it has. 10 : Excuse me. 11 : Again, it's just -- 12 : Excuse me, guys. 13 : -- you know, there's a 14 lot of documents that we talked about. 15 : Just like, man. 16 : All right. So, how oft- 17 being that we believe now that those counts 18 were falsified by staff working the SHU, how 19 often were counts falsified by staff in the SHU 20 and was this a common practice? 21 : See, that happened four 22 years in and I was just working the SHU for 23 about almost, I would say, six months. So from 24 - again, when I started working in the SHU, it 25 was six of us throughout during the day. By EFTA00060513

142 1 the time I got out of SHU, it was three of us. 2 So when I - it's human nature, people get lazy, 3 but the whole time that I was there, I didn't 4 hear about, "Oh, this guy is going to write the 5 rounds," or, "This guy is going to count," and 6 just give in the slips. So, again, I was 7 pretty new in SHU. 8 and when I counted 9 with somebody. 10 I've always worked the unit the unit, I had to count : Did anyone ever, since 11 you were new to the unit, ever tell you, "Oh, 12 this is the way we do it in SHU, we don't 13 actually do counts." 14 : No. No. : So you -. : I worked with pretty - some 15 16 17 solid guys then. 18 : So do you know of anybody 19 that were falsifying their counts? 20 : No. 21 : Would it surprise you if 22 those people we just discussed, 23 guess it's since Noel was 24 surprise you if falsified specifically I new, would it a count? 25 , I don't think he EFTA00060514

143 1 would. 2 : You don't think he would 3 falsify it. 4 : I don't think he would 5 falsify a count. 6 : All right. 7 : Noel, I didn't know too 8 much. 9 : But being that we, you 10 know, somehow they miraculously get the same 11 number that the institution had because 12 wasn't keyed out, that does make you 13 believe that it was falsified, correct? 14 : I don't know how to answer 15 that. I would hope not. I really would hope 16 not, but it's kind of too easy to figure out. 17 : Right. 18 : Again, I think -. 19 : So the evidence suggests 20 he did, you just hope it's not -. 21 : Correct. 22 : Okay. 23 : Correct. 24 : So, but knowing him, 25 there's no reason for you to believe that -. EFTA00060515

144 1 : That he actually did 2 falsify. 3 : Right. So you don't 4 believe him to be a very dishonest person. 5 : Correct. And he left work, 6 at 10 o'clock because he relieved me from 2:00 7 to 10:00, so. 8 : Right. So is he - he's a 9 good employee otherwise? 10 : Yes. He would have did the 11 4 o'clock count. He should do the 10 o'clock 12 count, but sometimes we leave at 9:50. 13 : Sure. 14 : And then, there's always 15 two people left, so the two people could 16 conduct the count. 17 : Is still here at 18 the MCC? 19 : Yes. 20 : What's his current 21 position? 22 : He's a Senior Officer. 23 : Senior Officer 24 Specialist? Okay. 25 : Just a Senior Officer. EFTA00060516

145 1 : Just Senior Officer? 2 Okay. So do you recall what conversations you 3 had with SHU staff who worked on August 9, 4 2019, including Michael Thomas and Tova Noel 5 about making entries related to counts and 6 rounds? So, specifically what I'm asking here 7 is that you're the OIC. Do you remember any 8 conversations that you would have had with any 9 of the people that worked in the SHU? 10 : Well, I didn't see Noel. 11 : I don't mean 12 : The 9th? 13 : I don't mean on the 9th - 14 15 : Like -. 16 -- people that worked on 17 the 9th, did you ever have conversations with 18 the people that worked on the 9th about, "Make 19 sure you're doing it correctly and this is how 20 it's supposed to be done." 21 : I do, I would say, "Do what 22 you're supposed to do," as I'm leaving. 23 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 24 25 you got to do." "Don't fuck it up. Do what EFTA00060517

146 1 : And do you follow what 2 I'm saying though? I'm not saying that you 3 would have had a conversation with them on the 4 9th. I'm saying 5 : Like in general? 6 : -- of the people that 7 worked on the 9th. So these people are the 8 ones like Noel, , you know, these 9 are the people that actually worked on the 9th. 10 Ever leading up to the 9th, so any day leading 11 up to the 9th, would have you had a 12 conversation with them to say, "Make sure 13 you're doing your rounds and counts correctly." 14 : Yep. I'm sure I've told 15 them - because everybody wants to work SHU. 16 SHU is a pain in the butt, but, if you want to 17 work SHU, you got to do your rounds and do your 18 stuff how you're supposed to do it. 19 : All right. Can you 20 remember any specific conversations or when 21 those conversations would have taken place? 22 : Probably walking around, 23 talking to them, seeing or or 24 anybody. Thomas has been working for the 25 Bureau for a very long time, even before I did, EFTA00060518

147 1 so he's worked SHU before and he knows what to 2 do in SHU. 3 : Right. 4 : But he's not - he works in 5 a different department. But 6 : What about the newer 7 people like 8 : Newer people? Everybody -. 9 : Tova Noel? She's 10 newer to the - it was her quarterly bided post, 11 you're the OIC, do you know if you had any 12 conversations with her or would have you? 13 : I would have said, "Do what 14 you got to do. Don't fuck it up for us." Just 15 like that. But that's just the way I speak. 16 : When you say, "Do what 17 you got to do," though, what does that mean? 18 : Follow the rules and do 19 what's according to policy. 20 : Okay. So not, do what 21 you got to do, it's like, do what you're 22 supposed to do. 23 : Do - do - yeah, I should 24 have rephrased it a little bit, but that's the 25 way I speak to everybody -- EFTA00060519

148 1 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 2 : -- so it's pretty much, 3 we're cool, but I'm still telling you to do 4 what you have to do based on the policy, make 5 sure you don't do anything that's not supposed 6 - that you're not supposed to - against policy. 7 If it's in black and white, that's how you got 8 to do it. 9 : Okay. And do you recall 10 ever saying that to Tova Noel being that she 11 was newer? 12 : That's - I'm sure I - 13 because again, I speak like that to everybody. 14 : Okay. 15 : Even now as Lieutenant, I 16 talk to you more as a co-worker than, "I'm your 17 supervisor." 18 : Sure. 19 : But I always tell everyone, 20 "Do your job. It's simple, just do your job." 21 : And I know I'm hammering 22 this, but I mean, are you confident you would 23 have had that conversation -- 24 : Yes. 25 : -- with Tova Noel? EFTA00060520

149 1 : Yes. 2 : Or -- 3 : Yes. 4 -- would have you had 5 that conversation with Michael Thomas being 6 that he's not typically a -. 7 : Probably not. 8 : No? 9 : Just because he has way 10 more time than I do. 11 : Okay. What about 12 , the same thing, he 13 worked with us in SHU I think before that or 14 maybe after. He got - I was the SHU OIC during 15 the day and he was the SHU OIC at night. 16 : Okay. So 17 : So -. 18 : -- knew what to do. 19 : Yes. 20 : And he knew the right way 21 to do it. 22 : Yes. 23 : Okay. And what about 24 25 was EFTA00060521

150 1 pretty new. Excuse me. He was pretty new and 2 I think he already worked for the warehouse. 3 : Okay. 4 : So, same thing. 5 : So -- 6 do-. 7 : -- if was working, 8 was the OIC at night? 9 : Yes. 10 : So would do you 11 believe, have had that conversation with 12 13 : Yes. 14 : To do what's -. 15 : Same thing with , he 16 would have, "Hey, do the right thing." 17 : Okay. And you didn't 18 work on August 10th you said, correct? 19 : Correct. 20 : Is there any way you 21 would have been able to know if the counts on 22 August 10th were correct? 23 : No. 24 : No. 25 : No way. EFTA00060522

151 1 : What - I know we just 2 talked about it, but what is the daily 3 Lieutenant's log? 4 : It's a log that we have in 5 the system that every Lieutenant has to pretty 6 much fill out every single day and make sure 7 it's accurate right before their shift ends. 8 : Does a Lieutenant have 9 their own Lieutenant's log or is it an overall 10 Lieutenant's log? 11 : It's an overall 12 Lieutenant's log. 13 : So every Lieutenant has 14 access to that same log. 15 : Correct, it's on the share 16 drive. 17 : So I was going to say, 18 where can it be found and accessed? What's the 19 share drive? 20 : The share drive, you log 21 into - well, here in this building, you log in, 22 you go to I think it's the G drive, double 23 click and you're going to see Lieutenant's log. 24 : So is it just like a 25 document and you'd go into like a shared folder EFTA00060523

152 1 or would it be on something like a SENTRY or 2 BOPWARE? 3 : Shared folder. 4 : A shared folder? So just 5 a document that you create every day 6 : Yes. 7 : -- and you - so it's not 8 actually in a system? 9 : No. 10 : All right. 11 : It's in a shared folder. 12 It's not like on TRUSCOPE or SENTRY or anything 13 like that. 14 : And at the end of the 15 day, is that then uploaded into some kind of 16 BOP system? 17 : It stays on the drive and 18 once you log in, you open the Lieutenant's log, 19 you make the changes to the number, you save it 20 and every day it gets saved. 21 : Okay. And is there 22 anything that's done with that though? Is it 23 then uploaded into something or it just stays 24 in the share folder? 25 : It stays in the shared EFTA00060524

153 1 folder, from my knowledge. 2 : Okay. And does anyone 3 aside from Lieutenants have access to change 4 that log? 5 : No, just the - well, the 6 Captain, the AW and the Warden. 7 : Yeah. 8 : But -. 9 : So Lieutenants and above? 10 : Correct. 11 : Nobody below a 12 Lieutenant? 13 : Nobody below Lieutenant. 14 : What about the people in 15 Control? 16 : No, they don't have access 17 to that. 18 : So even Control doesn't - 19 - 20 21 22 23 24 25 : No. : -- can't manipulate -- : No. : -- the Lieutenant's log? : Correct. : Okay. And I don't know EFTA00060525

154 1 that you'll be able to answer this, but are the 2 times listed on the Lieutenant's log that you 3 just reviewed accurate? 4 : I don't know. 5 : Is it all based upon 6 whoever is entering it? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. Is there any kind 9 of a verifying process? Like does anybody 10 oversight over that to kind of audit the 11 documents? 12 : The only way you could 13 verify it and the only thing would be the 14 moves. So if inmate movement in the 15 institution, you could verify it because you go 16 to the PP-38. 17 : And who creates that 18 document, the 38? 19 : The 38? You would call 20 Control, "Inmate Joe Smith left today." Or, 21 "Inmate Joe Smith was in 11 South, he was 22 moved." "Okay." I could call downstairs at 23 10:30, that's the time he moved, but it could 24 be off within a couple of - it could be off a 25 few minutes -- EFTA00060526

155 1 2 3 key it in. 4 So even -. : -- because Control has to : All right, so, that's 5 something that's created by Control. But what 6 we just said, we were going to use that to 7 verify if Fernandez left at 3:15, if the people 8 in the SHU never called Control to log 9 Fernandez out, would that be listed on the 38? 10 : No. 11 : So therefore, that might 12 not actually be the accurate document because 13 if they didn't call, the PP-38 wouldn't 14 (Indiscernible *01:55:27). 15 : The 38 would only verify 16 the movement and the time that it was keyed in. 17 : That it was keyed. 18 : Correct. 19 : So if it wasn't keyed 20 until midnight, which 21 : Then -. 22 : -- what the Lieutenant 23 said, like, "I found out that this person moved 24 earlier and he's actually in a different 25 location, I needed to make that key change at EFTA00060527

156 1 midnight." 2 : The time that he -- 3 : That's what -- 4 : -- actually moved? 5 : -- reflected on the 38. 6 : Correct. Because it's the 7 time, not the time it was keyed in the 8 Lieutenant's log 9 : All right. So there -. 10 : -- because I can change 11 those logs. 12 : So in this instance, the 13 38 would actually be incorrect if he wasn't 14 keyed out when he actually moved. 15 Correct. It wouldn't be 16 anything because he was never keyed. 17 : All right. So therefore, 18 this 38 actually would make it even more 19 confusing. 20 : Not really because it would 21 tell you if he got moved and at what time he 22 got moved. 23 : All right. So the 38 24 would list probably the same thing in the 25 Lieutenant's log, that's at midnight, Fernandez EFTA00060528

157 1 was moved at 3:15 p.m. to dry - from ZA. 2 : So the 38 would have the 3 actual time he was keyed in. 4 : Yeah, the keyed. 5 : So it would show you - 6 let's say the Lieutenant said she didn't find 7 out or he didn't find out until midnight that 8 this inmate, Fernandez, was moved and never 9 keyed out. She keys him out, now the date on 10 the 38 would be August 10th because it's after 11 midnight. 12 : Right. 13 : August 10th, 1:45 in the 14 morning, that's what the 38 would say. But on 15 the log, it would say he got moved at 3:30, 16 because that's when -. 17 : In the Lieutenant's log. 18 : Correct. 19 : So in this case, probably 20 the Lieutenant's log is the more accurate one. 21 : Yes. 22 : All right. Good to know. 23 : Just had a question. If 24 you're moving an inmate, right, doesn't the 25 outer doors of the SHU have to be buzzed by EFTA00060529

158 1 Control? 2 : Yes. 3 : When Control - does Control 4 have eyes on -- 5 : Yes. 6 : -- on - wouldn't they see an 7 inmate being moved? 8 : Yes. 9 : And wouldn't they question, 10 "How come he's not keyed in?" 11 : Well, depending on the 12 time. So like when let's say it was between 8 13 o'clock in the morning and 2 o'clock in the 14 afternoon, inmates are going in and out, in and 15 out, even SHU, like medical, dental, court, 16 attorney visits. So now you have six, seven 17 inmates going in and out, not at all times 18 you're looking, "Oh, is an inmate coming out," 19 they pop - you know, you call for the door. 20 You probably could just open the door right 21 there, but then have to run to the window, give 22 somebody a set of keys. 23 : Okay. And then just to 24 clarify on that same question. If that PP-38 25 will show the key in time of when the EFTA00060530

159 1 Lieutenant puts it in, what do you think the 2 Lieutenant or whoever updated that document got 3 the 3:15 time? 4 : Or she called R&D and said, 5 "Hey, what time this inmate got downstairs?" 6 "Oh, he came around 3:30." "All right. Well, 7 you should have told me, you know, key him 8 out," or whatever. 9 : At midnight, would that 10 employee that was on shift during evening watch 11 still be on there? 12 : Yep. 13 : What was that last 14 question? Was what? 15 : The employee in R&D, would 16 that person still be on shift at midnight. 17 : What is the time for the 18 shifts -- 19 : So, it would be -. 20 : -- in R&D? 21 : The shifts are 4:00 to 22 12:00, 4:00 to midnight. But usually, if 23 you're on dry cell -- 24 : Yeah. 25 -- watching somebody, you EFTA00060531

160 1 would not leave exactly at midnight. You would 2 leave a couple of minutes after unless you were 3 doing a double doing dry cell. 4 : All right. Let's talk - 5 the fact that that this guy wasn't 6 specifically tied to Epstein, is there any 7 chance two years later we're going to be able 8 to talk to anybody to verify when he got to the 9 dry cell? 10 : No. He probably is not 11 even in the institution anymore, 12 : That's what I mean. So 13 like even talking to R&D, do you think that 14 there's any way that they'd even remember when 15 this guy placed down there? 16 : No, because who knows who 17 was in R&D that day, who knows if they're still 18 working here. 19 : But what about, like for 20 instance, we have the count slips at least for 21 10:00 p.m. Actually, where there was no count 22 slip for him at 4:00 p.m. but we have the count 23 slips for R&D and RA at 10:00 p.m. and 24 midnight. Do you believe that even they would 25 be able to recall if it was that they EFTA00060532

161 1 watched? 2 : No. No. 3 : And why is that? 4 : Just because a lot of 5 inmate movement. 6 : How reliable do you 7 believe that that Lieutenant log saying that he 8 left at 3:15, how reliable at this point, us 9 looking at it back then and the person making 10 that change potentially at midnight that night, 11 how reliable do you view that 3:15 time? 12 : If it's Lieutenant 13 that's - she's very by the book. I'm 14 not saying that everybody else is not. 15 : Right. 16 : But, and she knows her job. 17 : Do you -. 18 : So if, that would probably 19 be maybe the only Lieutenant, especially on 20 morning watch, that would catch a mistake like 21 that. 22 : Okay. 23 : And she - numbers didn't 24 add up, she went back and changed it, made it 25 accurate EFTA00060533

162 1 : Okay. And certainly you 2 believe that the institutional count was made 3 accurate by her, but what I guess I'm 4 specifically requesting, you know, wondering, 5 how accurate do you think she would have made 6 the movement of 3:15 moved ZA from - or moved 7 to dry cell from ZA? 8 : Very. 9 : Very? 10 : Very accurate, yes. 11 : So you believe that that 12 3:15 then is probably the right time? 13 : Around the time that he got 14 moved, yes. 15 : Okay. Sounds good. And 16 no one in the SHU has access to the 17 Lieutenant's log? 18 : No. 19 : All right. We're going 20 to move on now. 21 : Oh, sorry. 22 : What - no, I'm sorry, 23 this is - again, like I said, you're kind of 24 like - when I saw that one page interview 25 report, I was like, "Oh, this is the guy that, EFTA00060534

163 1 you know, has all the answers." But what is 2 the MCC policy on conducting cell searches in 3 the SHU? And let's specifically talk about, if 4 you can remember, in August. So in August of 5 2019, do you remember what the MCC policy was 6 on conducting cell searches in the SHU? 7 : You got to conduct cell 8 search every time an inmate comes out. I don't 9 know if that's actual policy or not. 10 : Was it something like 11 some of the shifts you had to do five cell 12 searches -- 13 : Per shift 14 : -- during that shift? 15 : Yes. 16 : Or if the person may be, 17 you know, in the day watch, maybe if someone 18 went to rec, you're supposed to -. 19 : So, the way we did it, you 20 came out to the shower, that was our cell 21 search. 22 : Okay. 23 : So, every Monday, Wednesday 24 and Friday we showered everybody, everybody's 25 cell was searched. EFTA00060535

164 1 : So every Monday, 2 Wednesday and Friday everyone's cell was 3 searched? 4 : Yes, because everybody got 5 a shower. So we took that as okay -. 6 : And officers would 7 actually go in and search their cells? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. And what about the 10 non-shower days, how would you do searches or 11 would you -. 12 : When somebody went to rec, 13 when somebody went to R&D, if somebody has to 14 go to medical, we'll bring you out and we 15 search the cell. 16 : Okay. And then, what is 17 the responsibility of the SHU OIC with regard 18 to SHU cell searches, if anything? 19 : To make sure they're logged 20 in and make sure they get conducted. 21 : Okay. So like, is the 22 OIC the one - were you the one that would 23 actually log them into like TRUSCOPE? 24 : Well, anybody could log 25 them in but most the time I did it or I was EFTA00060536

165 1 searching the cell myself. 2 : And what is the 3 responsibility of the SHU Lieutenant with 4 regard to cell searches, if any? 5 : To make sure the OIC got it 6 done. 7 : Okay. And were cell 8 searches being conducted and logged in to 9 TRUSCOPE for the SHU in August of 2019? 10 : They should have. Yes. 11 : All right. So we 12 requested to - just because we're going to get 13 into what was found in Epstein's cell later, 14 but you're the one who logged this in, but we 15 only found one cell search for June 9, 2019. 16 : August 9th. 17 : Or sorry, August 9 - is 18 that June 9th or August 9th? What does that 19 say? 20 : August 9th. 21 : Okay. August 9, 2019. 22 Does that - would that be normal that there 23 would only be one logged in? 24 : No. Again, it's depending 25 on what was going on during the day -. EFTA00060537

166 1 : So that would have been 2 one of those shower days, I guess, though. 3 : And I worked - yes, from 4 1:00 - I worked until 2 o'clock that day. 5 : But do you believe that 6 there was only one cell search conducted or do 7 you believe that there were more? 8 : There was one cell search 9 probably logged in. 10 : Okay. But all of them 11 were conducted? 12 : Should have been conducted, 13 yes. 14 : And do you believe that - 15 I know we're talking two years ago. Do you 16 believe that all of them were conducted? 17 18 19 : The majority. : Yeah. : The majority. 20 : Any reason - do you know 21 if Epstein's cell would have been searched on 22 August 9th? 23 : It should have been because 24 him and both left at the same time. 25 : Right. And who would EFTA00060538

167 1 have done that cell search? 2 • 3 shower. 4 ■ : Well, took them out to the : Okay. And is that like 5 everybody? Does everybody - how does that 6 work? Who 7 : So, technically the OIC is 8 not supposed to - he has the big set which is 9 the keys to the - on the ranges and the door 10 and everybody else goes in and out the tiers. 11 : Okay. 12 : But we were all involved. 13 We all moved inmates from this tier to another 14 tier. Okay, "You two on that side, okay, bring 15 them out," search their cell. If I'm on this 16 side, I'm going to bring them out, do the cell 17 search. 18 : Okay. And this isn't 19 I'm not trying to be an I gotcha, at all at any 20 moment, I'm just trying to get a greater 21 understanding. So if all of the cells were 22 searched, why would only one search be entered 23 for that day? 24 : I'm busy during the day. 25 : And was that like, does EFTA00060539

168 1 that happen often though, like it's too busy to 2 actually log the searches in? 3 : The system is kind of a 4 pain in the butt because you've got to do one 5 by one by one, you know, unless you do all of 6 them. I mean, unless you do one, then enter, 7 then another one and enter. It's not like you 8 could do multiple cell searches or click them 9 that you did them at one time. 10 : Okay. Now it's my 11 understanding that after you left, the night 12 watch is then responsible for conducting, on 13 every shift, five cell searches, correct? 14 : Yes. 15 : And who would have logged 16 that in? 17 : Anybody could have logged 18 it. 19 : Anyone? 20 : But it should be the OIC. 21 : So that would have been 22 who should have done that? 23 : Correct. Yes. 24 : All right. And does the 25 fact that you had your one that you entered EFTA00060540

169 1 earlier in the day, the fact that there's none 2 for the rest of the day, is that problematic in 3 your opinion? 4 : Not really because 5 throughout the day, we pretty much do the 6 showers. So we went into every single cell. 7 : Okay. 8 : Now maybe it should have 9 been keyed so it could reflect because if 10 there's no cameras, you can say, "Yeah, all 11 right," -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- you only did one because 14 you keyed in one. But, you know, they should 15 because they also have rec at night time. When 16 you bring back an inmate or you bring them out 17 to attorney visit, you're still bringing the 18 inmates out. 19 : Okay. 20 : So they should have been 21 keyed in. 22 : So although they were not 23 keyed in, do you believe that they were being 24 conducted on August 9, 2019? 25 : Yes. EFTA00060541

170 1 : Yes? 2 : Yes. 3 : What about after you 4 left, do you believe that there would have been 5 - the five cell searches would have been 6 conducted on 2019 at this point? 7 : They should have because I 8 know we had legal visits and maybe we had 9 regular like visits for the inmates with their 10 family members. 11 : Do you recall, what is 12 the policy at least in August of 2019 related 13 to what inmates are allowed to have in their 14 cells? 15 : Well, no contraband of 16 course. Five hard cover books only. 17 : What about like medical? 18 : Two sheets, one blanket. 19 If you have the CPAP machine, you can get that. 20 : How - and just for the 21 record, how do you spell that? What is it? 22 That machine? 23 : What, the CPAP? 24 : Is it CPAC or CPAP? 25 : CPAP, CPAP. EFTA00060542

171 1 : Is it for snoring? 2 : Yes. 3 : That's what you're 4 talking about? So you can breathe better? 5 : Yes. 6 : Okay. 7 : So CPAP, right? 8 : I actually don't know. 9 : Is it? 10 : That's why I was asking. 11 : Is it C-P-A-P? 12 : I think that's what it is. 13 Not even sure. But it was a machine that you 14 use to help you breathe in the middle of the 15 night -- 16 : I just know -. 17 18 it. 19 : (Indiscernible *02:08:22). : -- and you go to sleep with 20 : I just know the 21 transcriber for this would be like, "What the 22 heck is he saying?" 23 : Is that for sleep apnea? 24 : Yes. That's - I think it 25 helps you - it clears your whatever it is, your EFTA00060543

172 1 nose or your throat so you can be able to 2 breathe better in the middle of the night. 3 : And I did interrupt, I 4 apologize, when you were getting into the 5 linens. How many sheets and blankets and all 6 that? Can you 7 : It should be - if it's 8 August, it should be two sheets, one blanket. 9 : Two sheets, one blanket. 10 That's for each individual -- 11 : Yes. 12 • -- inmate. So, for each 13 cell, if there's two inmates, it would be four 14 sheets and two blankets. 15 : Correct. 16 : Okay. 17 : And the wintertime, it's 18 two sheets, two blankets. 19 : Okay. Was Epstein 20 authorized to have pills in his cell within the 21 SHU? 22 : Well, if you have 23 medication, yes, you can have your own 24 medication. 25 : And that's - okay. EFTA00060544

173 1 2 that. 3 : We don't set a number on : Who is responsible for 4 determining what medication inmates have? 5 : The Medical Department. 6 : And do they provide it to 7 them? 8 : Yes. 9 : And then they're able to 10 just keep it in their cell and take it? 11 : Yes. 12 : Is there ever a problem 13 with like overdose or anything like that? 14 : I mean, we've had inmates 15 take more than they're supposed to take. 16 : Is it dependent upon what 17 type of medication if they can have it in their 18 cell or not? 19 : So, certain medication, the 20 pill line, which is Medical, they'll come 21 around and give it to you daily if that's what 22 - you're only supposed to have it daily, 23 Medical Department will come around and give it 24 to the inmates themselves. 25 : Okay. EFTA00060545

174 1 : Anything else, if you have 2 your own medication, it would be in your cell. 3 : Okay. I'm going to just 4 show you some pictures of August 10th and I 5 just wanted, if you can just kind of let me 6 know what I'm looking at. Is this L Tier, is 7 that where Epstein would have been housed? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. And then another 10 picture of L Tier. This wasn't his cell there. 11 : No. 12 : Do you remember what cell 13 number he was in? 14 : I know exactly. It was the 15 first one to the right, 221 maybe? 16 : 221 or maybe 222 or 17 something? 18 : (Indiscernible *02:10:30). 19 : All right. I think it's 20 220, but is this his tier? 21 : That's L Tier, yes, here on 22 the right. 23 : Does this look like it 24 would have been - it looks like it would have 25 been 220. EFTA00060546

175 1 : Yeah. 2 : But would that have been 3 Epstein's cell? 4 : Yes. 5 : All right. So 220 was 6 the first door on the right when you're walking 7 down the -- 8 : Yes. 9 : -- the tier? 10 : When you walk into - yes. 11 : All right. So, I want to 12 just - I'll let you look through these. Can 13 you just let me know if this looks like an 14 abnormal amount of linens and blankets and 15 clothing? And we don't know, so that's why 16 we're asking. And that's again, not a gotcha, 17 I don't know if it's more than should be or 18 what. 19 : No, I think this was his 20 and his bunkie's. 21 : So does that make you 22 believe that his bunkie's was never removed? 23 And when should have they been removed? 24 As soon as they figure out 25 that he's not coming back. EFTA00060547

176 1 : So at either 4:00 p.m. or 2 certainly before 8:00 p.m.? 3 : Yes. 4 : Would it have been when 5 Epstein was returned to attorney client visit, 6 definitely at that time, should have they made 7 sure -. 8 : Well, by 8 o'clock, they 9 should - while walking Epstein back into the 10 cell, they should have said, "Oh shit, he 11 doesn't have a bunkie," and, "Oh shit, his 12 bunkie is gone." 13 : All right. So by looking 14 at those photos, you just believe that that was 15 actually both Epstein and Reyes's? 16 : Yes. 17 : Okay. 18 : It probably -. 19 : So it does look like more 20 than one inmate so it looks like that would be 21 the amount of linens and clothing for two 22 inmates? 23 : Well, probably a couple of 24 extra sheets in there. 25 : And do you know if EFTA00060548

177 1 Epstein was provided extra sheets than he was 2 supposed to have been provided? 3 : He shouldn't have. 4 : Can you just explain to 5 me, how does that work? How does the process 6 7 : Well, when the inmate comes 8 into the Special Housing Unit, we give them two 9 sheets, one blanket. When they do the showers, 10 we should go in there - initial these two? 11 : Please. Not all of them, 12 we just need the top picture. 13 : When we should go - when we 14 go in there when we bring them out to the 15 shower, we should go in there and shake it 16 down, that's when we go in there and take 17 anything extra that they're not supposed to 18 have. 19 : So if he took a shower 20 that day on August 9th - so you believe from 21 looking at those pictures, he actually had even 22 more than if it were just him and , he had 23 some extra -- 24 : Yes, he probably had like 25 two extra blankets. EFTA00060549

178 1 : Is that an issue? 2 : They should never have 3 that. 4 : Okay. So, if that cell 5 was searched on August 9th, at that point, 6 someone should have removed them? 7 : Yes. Somebody should 8 remove all the extra, left him with what he's 9 supposed to have and nothing more. 10 : And on that date, who 11 would have been responsible for doing that? 12 : When we brought them out to 13 the shower. 14 : So not only do they bring 15 them out to the shower but they also are 16 responsible for (Indiscernible *02:13:15). 17 : Correct. Might as well. 18 If you're on the same tier, you put them in the 19 shower, it takes two seconds. 20 : So where is the shower? 21 Are the showers on the same tier? 22 23 24 : Yes. : Okay. : So on that tier, if you 25 look at his cell, right to the right. EFTA00060550

179 1 : So -. 2 : This is the shower here. 3 : Okay. Like there? 4 : Yeah. 5 : Okay. So it's kind of 6 like almost in the middle or the start is like 7 almost like the second door. 8 : Yes. 9 : This one? 10 : No, it's actually, see this 11 little gate? 12 : (Indiscernible 13 *02:13:46). 14 : You can't really see it. 15 : Can you see it from here? 16 : No. 17 : Like it's the start of 18 the tier? 19 : Yeah. So if you come in, 20 you walk in, you kind of make a right turn. 21 You see this gate right here? 22 : Maybe I'll have you - if 23 you can mark it on either SHU map here that 24 we're going to - I'm going to show you for a 25 second just so you can - I'm going to ask you EFTA00060551

180 1 about like the cameras and what cameras should 2 have been in there, that kind of stuff, so you 3 can just show me where. So do you know if 4 Epstein was provided any of these special 5 privileges to have extra clothing or linen? 6 : No, I know he should not 7 have. 8 : Okay. 9 : But he always asked for a 10 clean uniform every time he showered. 11 : Would he give his other 12 uniform -- 13 : Yes. 14 : -- back though? 15 : Yes. 16 : So what is your belief on 17 why he would have had extra blankets? 18 : Somebody who doesn't 19 normally work SHU just said, "Okay," or he 20 probably asked for one because he was cold. 21 : And how would people that 22 worked in the SHU know what the rules were with 23 as far as exchanging your linens and your 24 clothing? 25 : Well, we talk about it. EFTA00060552

181 1 Two sheets, one blanket. 2 3 training? 4 : Is that not provided at : I don't remember. I don't 5 think that's in the SHU training, but it also 6 tells you not to have an excess of linen inside 7 the SHU. 8 : The training does? 9 : Yes. 10 : Okay. So at training, 11 they do say they're not supposed to have, you 12 know, extra? 13 : Correct. 14 : And then, from working in 15 the SHU, would it be the OIC to tell people, 16 (Indiscernible *02:15:10). 17 : The OIC or anybody who kind 18 of -. 19 : Works in there? 20 : Because OIC is not always 21 there, so. 22 : All right. During 23 showers, who would have been working on August 24 9, 2019 looking at the daily assignment roster? 25 : Would have been EFTA00060553

182 1 , Monge and myself. 2 : Okay. As far as, did you 3 notice that there was an extra mattress in 4 Epstein's cell. 5 : There's one on the floor. 6 : Yes. We're told that 7 Epstein actually had two mattresses, one on the 8 floor, one on the bottom bunk and then 9 had one as well. Would that be abnormal that 10 he was provided two mattresses? 11 : Definitely shouldn't have 12 happened. Somebody probably felt bad for him 13 because he maybe said his back hurts. 14 : Do you know where Epstein 15 slept? 16 : Well, this only shows two 17 right here. 18 : It's the height of the 19 mattress. 20 : I think he slept on the bed 21 and slept on the floor. 22 : Oh, that's your belief? 23 : I think so. 24 : Oh, we were told the 25 opposite. EFTA00060554

183 1 : Opposite? 2 : So you believe was 3 actually on the floor? 4 : I think so. 5 : Okay. But if they had 6 if there in fact were three mattresses in there 7 8 : There weren't supposed to 9 be three mattresses in there. 10 : When and how would have 11 that happened? 12 : Maybe one of them wasn't 13 thick enough, somebody else gave him another 14 one or they just didn't see the mattress 15 because a lot of times, the inmates put it on 16 the wall and if you don't physically go inside 17 the cell, you just give them another mattress. 18 : So it - how would they 19 explain the fact that they didn't have a 20 mattress? 21 : One would be standing 22 against the wall. 23 : But, I mean, would they 24 say like somebody came in and took it? 25 : No, just sometimes we move EFTA00060555

184 1 mattresses around because we're going to put 2 two inmates over there. They only have one, 3 then we'll take it. 4 : Okay. Is that a big 5 problem if there are extra mattresses then? 6 : You're not supposed to, but 7 depending who is in charge that's there 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- and at night time, if 10 you don't want to deal with it - well, not me 11 or - but if some people don't want to deal with 12 it, like, "All right, here's another mattress." 13 : So what's the purpose of 14 making sure that inmates only have one mattress 15 as well as the correct amount of linens and 16 blankets? 17 : Well, the linen because 18 just so we can have for everybody. The 19 mattress, the same thing, you only have one 20 mattress, that's all you're allowed. 21 : Are there any kind of 22 security issues that go along with it? 23 : Unless it's a troubled 24 inmate, they'll put the mattress to barricade 25 the door. EFTA00060556

185 1 : No, I mean like is there 2 any security issues that go along with making 3 sure an inmate doesn't have extra linens or 4 doesn't have extra blankets, is something, 5 like, to do with, like, potentially escaping or 6 harming themselves or anything like that. Is 7 that ever taught or do you know anything about 8 that? Or was it more of an administrative 9 thing? 10 : It's more an administrative 11 thing. 12 : Okay. So your 13 understanding was administrative, nothing to do 14 with like harming themselves or escaping. 15 : Right. I don't think the 16 mattress or linen have anything to do with 17 that. 18 : Okay. Who did you say 19 was responsible for making sure that inmates 20 had the correct amount of linens and mattresses 21 and things? 22 : Everybody. 23 : Everybody? 24 : Everybody. 25 : Okay. What - can you EFTA00060557

186 1 just explain - we're going to move to the next 2 one. What - did you want to follow up on 3 anything with that? 4 : No, no. 5 : Can you explain cell 6 rotations in the SHU for me? 7 : Cell rotations have to be 8 conducted every 21 days. 9 : Every 21 days? 10 : Yes. 11 : And is that like every 21 12 days from the time that the inmate arrives at 13 the SHU or is it like on a set schedule, this 14 is the day, this is the 21st day? 15 : From the inmate arrives to 16 the cell. 17 : Okay. So every inmate is 18 different. 19 : So if an inmate comes in 20 and he's assigned to cell 101 today, within 21 21 days or at 21 days, he needs to move to another 22 cell that is not cell 101. 23 : Okay. And who is 24 responsible for kind of making sure that that 25 happens? EFTA00060558

187 1 : The Lieutenant should 2 oversee but usually we all go and assist them 3 and we have a print out of the 21 - "Oh, this 4 guy is on 18 days, it's time for him to move." 5 "Oh, this guy is on 21 days, let's move him." 6 : So is it has to be done 7 by 21 days, it can be done prior to 21? Is 8 that what you're saying? 9 : Yes. 10 : Okay. So it's not like 11 the OIC's responsibility, it's everybody's 12 joint responsibility? 13 : Yes. As long as you're not 14 in the same cell for more than 21 days, you can 15 move every 15 and you can move every 10 as long 16 as it doesn't go over 21. 17 : So, who is like checking 18 to make sure that that's done or is it some 19 kind of an alert that is provided? 20 : Excuse me. Usually the OIC 21 and the Lieutenant. 22 : Are the ones saying, "Let 23 these go." Yeah. 24 : "Hey, we got to move these 25 guys." The Lieutenant goes like, "Hey, OIC, EFTA00060559

188 1 you got to get these guys moved." 2 : All right. And then 3 after they're moved, who is responsible for 4 keying the movement? 5 : Well, the OIC could do it 6 - 7 : Okay. 8 : -- but usually we'll call 9 Control. 10 : So Control or the OIC? 11 : Yes. 12 : All right. As the OIC 13 though, is that kind of like your job every 21 14 days to make sure and then you can either call 15 Control or is it -. 16 : Well, I used to do it on my 17 own because I can -. 18 : Right, right. 19 : Instead of calling Control, 20 waiting five minutes for them to pick up, I 21 just do it on my own. 22 : Now are you aware that 23 Epstein was in the wrong cell on August 9th and 24 10th of 2019? 25 : No. EFTA00060560

189 1 : And so he was in cell 220 2 as we just discussed and in the system he's 3 logged in at 206L. Do you know anything about 4 that? 5 : I actually found that out 6 the week after. 7 : (Indiscernible *02:20:49) 8 so, if you found out, do you know why that is, 9 like what happened? Because obviously the 10 conspiracy theorists are going to be all over 11 that if that gets out, that he was in the wrong 12 cell. So, do you know if it would have been 13 one of those things that - was he ever moved or 14 was he just moved in the system or vice versa? 15 Do you know how that 16 : I think -. 17 : -- discrepancy happened? 18 : I think what happened was 19 when he was moved up from suicide watch, he was 20 placed in, let's say, 206. And then, after he 21 went to attorney conference, when they got him 22 with his bunkie - I mean, once, let's say, he 23 went - he did go to attorney conference, "Okay, 24 he's coming back, we're going to put him with 25 this bunkie," we're just going to move him and EFTA00060561

190 1 somebody forgot to key him in to the right 2 cell. 3 : So do you know if Epstein 4 was ever in a different cell other than 220? 5 : No. He was actually with 6 Tartaglione. 7 : So that was - so when he 8 was with Tartaglione prior to July 23rd, he was 9 actually in a different cell? 10 : Yes. 11 : Is that listed on that? 12 Does it show? 13 : Trying to remember what 14 cell is downstairs right from above that one. 15 : Well, I have a list of 16 the SHU map if that helps you out. It's the 17 first and second floor. I can't remember which 18 one is the first page and - I would just assume 19 that whatever L Tier is on, that's the second 20 floor, correct? 21 22 23 24 25 : Yes. Now -. So the letter corresponds -. : The numbers are off -- : Yeah. : -- on that for some EFTA00060562

191 1 reason. 2 : Definitely. 3 : And we all - and we can't 4 explain that, why that SHU map shows the wrong 5 letters or the wrong numbers, I mean. Seems 6 like they say the wrong - they show the wrong 7 or the correct letters although the numbers 8 appear to be wrong. 9 : This is also - I'm not - is 10 this the second floor? 11 : Here, let me see. 12 : I'm not -. 13 : My understanding would be 14 since this says, "L," that this would be the 15 second floor and this would be the first floor. 16 Is H, K, M, are they on the first floor? 17 : Yes. H is on the bottom. 18 : So H is on the - H is not 19 even on the same thing as K and M? Oh yeah 20 21 22 showing -- 23 : They're on : -- because this is : They're on -. 24 : -- stairs, so I guess - 25 so is this like - this is what you're - is EFTA00060563

192 1 there like three levels then? 2 : No, there's only two, but 3 so H is downstairs, GT is right upstairs and 4 then there's J, K, L, M. 5 : So does this not make 6 sense the way that this is 7 : No, not really. 8 : So, okay. So even 9 looking at this, this doesn't even add up 10 : No. 11 : -- the way you're looking 12 at it? 13 : Because this is the 14 officer's station and the office is the second 15 floor G Tier. This is a weird - but he 16 : So this doesn't add up to 17 you? So we're going to have to see about 18 getting a different SHU map. 19 : No. 20 : But, from your 21 understanding, does this kind of look right 22 though? If this is the officer's station over 23 there, is this where 24 : So -. 25 : -- Epstein was housed? EFTA00060564

193 1 Looking at it that way? 2 : No, so this is the office. 3 That probably means the Lieutenant's office 4 which is on the second floor -- 5 : So that's the LT's 6 office? 7 : -- right next to G Tier. 8 Correct. 9 : Okay. So that's where 10 : And then recreation -- 11 12 -- we thought this was -- would be downstairs. 13 : So this office and this 14 are not even on the same floor? 15 : No. This is on the second 16 floor and this is downstairs. 17 : All right. 18 : So these might be the 19 original blue prints where the rooms might have 20 been changed over time. 21 : All right. Yeah, we're 22 probably going to have to just ask the SIA to 23 give us a tour. Where - so if this is - if 24 we're going to assume that this is the second 25 floor -- EFTA00060565

194 1 : That's if -. 2 : -- because it has L. 3 : That's LT and then the 4 officer's station should be right here. 5 : Right here? 6 : Because I could look up to 7 the office. 8 : So I'm going to write 9 this circle where you're pointing and just put 10 OS for Officer's Station. And this would be 11 Epstein? 12 : Yes. 13 : I'll write E there. 14 : And this is the shower -- 15 : Does -. 16 : -- like I was telling 17 earlier. 18 : Oh, so this is the shower 19 here? All right, so the shower is actually 20 outside of the tier. 21 : Yes. 22 : Shower. And then, if 23 this is 220, where would 206 be? 24 : 19, 18 -- 25 : It's all the way down? EFTA00060566

195 1 : -- 17, 16, 15, 14, 13. 2 : Or is there even? I 3 mean, this sheet says 206 -. 4 : How many cells are in there? 5 : There's four on one side 6 and four on the opposite side. 7 : And would you understand 8 it to mean 206L for 206 L Tier? 9 : No, 206 is lower. That's 10 the -. 11 : Oh, so this wouldn't even 12 mean that he was on the L Tier. 206 -. 13 : Lower and then like upper. 14 : Because this is where it 15 says, if I'm reading this correctly, does it 16 say that on 8/10/2019 that's where he should 17 have been assigned -- 18 : Correct. 19 : -- 206 lower? Does that 20 show you at all - it says, "Z range," right? 21 : Yeah. So -. 22 : What does that 23 : So -. 24 • -- show you that where 25 it's saying that is that he was assigned? And EFTA00060567

196 1 it seems like he had a lot of assignments in 2 there. 3 : So H is the suicide watch. 4 : Okay. So where it says, 5 "H," next to -. 6 : So he went from 201, which 7 that's G Tier, to suicide watch on the 8th of 8 August, then he went to SHU. 9 : The 8th of August? 10 : Of July, I'm sorry, of 11 July. D05. 12 : So July 23rd is when he 13 should have been placed in the -. 14 : That's when actually -. 15 : And July 30th he should 16 have returned. 17 : July 23rd he was in suicide 18 watch. 19 : Right. 20 : July 29th, he went to SHU - 21 - 22 : What -. 23 -- and -. 24 : What cell was he placed in? 25 : 206 on July 29th. Then - EFTA00060568

197 1 hmm. He has - so he was never placed in 220. 2 We never keyed him into 220. 3 : Well, does it show that 4 he was in 206 ever since the time he came back? 5 : Yeah. 6 : Could you -. 7 : So it says the 29th he was 8 in H001 then the next day - the next date would 9 be 206. 10 : And by the number 206, 11 does that tell you at all where that is in the 12 SHU? 13 : 206, I have to -. 14 : I mean, do they - is it 15 so each tier doesn't have like their own 16 number? Is it just, you know, 206 could be 17 like G Tier or -. 18 : So I think - little 19 confusing because I think it goes H Tier is 20 one, two, three, four, these are all four, 205, 21 five, six, then this one should be 06, L Tier 22 should be 06. 23 24 25 : L Tier -- : I have to see it. : -- should be 206? EFTA00060569

198 1 : I have to see it, sorry. 2 : Yeah, yeah, and I get it. 3 : See, because it's a little 4 confusing. 5 : Trying to - absolutely. 6 : Because the way they have 7 it is the opposite. Like one is on the bottom, 8 two is on top and then three back to the 9 bottom, four to the top. 10 : Yeah, so we'll definitely 11 have to check on that. But do you know, was he 12 even ever in 206 after he returned from suicide 13 watch? 14 : If -. 15 : So he returned from 16 suicide watch, it sounds like, like you just 17 said, on the 29th of July. I guess I thought 18 it was the 30th based upon that email. So the 19 29th of July through August 9th, 21 days does 20 not even elapse. 21 : He should be on 220. So he 22 should have got keyed into 220 because that's 23 where -- 24 : So someone -- 25 : -- what it says. EFTA00060570

199 1 : -- keyed him in 2 incorrectly is what it sounds like? 3 : Unless they put him there 4 and said, "Oh, shit, he needs a bunkie and then 5 moved him. But once they moved him, he was 6 never keyed into the right cell. 7 : All right. And do you 8 know who would have keyed in the 206? 9 : Maybe Control the day they 10 came upstairs? Maybe whoever was working SHU? 11 : All right, then -. 12 : So probably maybe even me, 13 but I don't think I would put him in the wrong 14 cell. 15 : So from the time - and 16 you're the one that put him in the cell? 17 : Yeah, like, I wouldn't put 18 him - if you came to 205, that's where I would 19 key you into, 205. 20 : So, are you - but are you 21 the one that placed him initially into 220? 22 : No. 23 : Do you know who did? 24 : I don't remember that. 25 : Do you know how it was EFTA00060571

200 1 decided that he went into 220? My 2 understanding is he was placed in that cell 3 because you could see - you could all - you 4 could see his door up front. 5 : They put him there so we 6 can see him, but maybe was in that cell 7 already. 8 : Who made the 9 determination to place him in that cell? 10 : I don't know. Not me. 11 Like I said, maybe because was already in 12 there. 13 : Yeah, yeah. 14 : Could have been in there, 15 so, you know, it's easier to move him in with 16 • 17 : Oh, yeah. So, that's 18 what I was saying before. I thought the 19 determination was made because from the 20 officer's station, like you said 21 : You could -. 22 : -- where I circled 23 : You could see him. 24 : -- you could see the 25 door. EFTA00060572