LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 that -- 2 MR. : But not normally. 3 MR. : -- in the desk area? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : All right. Where would 6 the hot list be located? 7 MR. : So, behind the desks, like, a 8 wall we have, that we keep it up there. 9 MR. : All right. And they're 10 supposed to be checking that, and making sure 11 those people are, one) checked on, and two) 12 have cellmates? Is that the purpose? 13 MR. : The hot list is just any - 14 it's pretty much any inmate that comes from the 15 housing unit. They come from the housing unit. 16 This guy psych alert, hey, make sure this guy 17 gets a bunkie. That's the initial check. 18 That's what the hot list is for. 19 MR. : And are they supposed to 20 check that list every day, to make those same - 21 22 MR. : I mean, you don't - no, you 23 get up there, it's, hey, on the suicide watch, 24 is he on the hot list? So, it's not common to 25 check it every day. No. EFTA00110795

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 MR. : All right. So, it's not 2 common to check it every day? 3 MR. : Every day, no. Unless it's 4 updated. 5 MR. : Only when it's updated, 6 you check it. 7 MR. : Yeah, if the guy is still on 8 it. 9 MR. : But wouldn't - again, the 10 fact that the MCC is a jail, not a prison 11 wouldn't it be pretty regular that people are 12 being moved in and out? 13 MR. : Not on the hot list. 14 MR. : No, but the people that 15 they're bunked with. If they're required to 16 have a cellmate -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- wouldn't it be prettl. 19 regular that they would have to - their 20 celimates might be leaving? Because if it's a 21 jail, not a prison. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : So, that's what I'm 24 saying. So, how are they always ensuring that 25 those people that are required to have EFTA00110796

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 cellmates have cellmates? 2 MR. : That's when you say, hey, I 3 got a single cell up there. 4 MR. : And at what point is that 5 reviewed? 6 MR. : The single cells? 7 MR. : Yeah. Is that supposed 8 to be a daily occurrence? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : And is that - what time 11 is that? The 8:00 time that you're talking 12 about? 13 MR. : No. Usually, that's in the 14 morning. So, like, if I come in, hey, you 15 know, I'm going to - who's in the single cell? 16 You know? 17 MR. : Well, what about -. 18 MR. : At night, it's just not -. 19 At night, it's -. 20 MR. : Even when people are left 21 during the day, and then come back from court? 22 Some people come back, some people don't. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Wouldn't that be another 25 time that they do it, or they don't do it at EFTA00110797

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 that time? 2 MR. : I mean, I mean, like I said, 3 after that cut off time, that's when you start 4 saying, okay, we've got a single cell, of such 5 and such. Then again, remember, MCC get 6 inmates throughout the night. 7 MR. : They do? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Placed in the SHU? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. And you didn't 12 work that night. Do you know of any people 13 that were placed in the SHU that night, on 14 August 9th? 15 MR. : No. Not according to this, 16 no. 17 MR. : And did you conduct any 18 counts or rounds in the SHU on August 9th? 19 MR. : I can't recall. 20 MR. : And what is the purpose: 21 Why do COs conduct counts and rounds in the 22 SHU? 23 MR. : To make sure they're alive. 24 MR. : Is it also to make sure 25 everyone is there? EFTA00110798

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : And are cells and counts 3 - are counts and rounds documented? 4 MR. : Yup. 5 MR. : And how 6 MR. : Probably. 7 MR. : -- how are they 8 documented? 9 MR. : 30-minute log in in TruScope. 10 MR. : So, 30-minute log for 11 rounds? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : And what is the TruScope? 14 MR. : Rounds. 15 MR. : That's rounds, as well? 16 MR. : You put rounds in there, too, 17 but all the counts. 18 MR. : So, counts 19 MR. : Mainly counts, yeah. 20 MR. so, are counts also 21 are there, like, little slips that are filled 22 out? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Who fills them out? 25 MR. : All the officers. EFTA00110799

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : And what do they do with 2 them? 3 MR. : Give it to Internal. 4 MR. : And does Internal come to 5 the SHU, or does the SHU go to Internal? 6 MR. : It depends. 7 Not before this incident. 8 MR. -: MR. : Or it does 9 it both ways? 10 MR. : Both ways. Just get it to 11 control. 12 MR. : Okay. Do all COs who 13 work in the SHU know how to properly conduct 14 and report counts and rounds? 15 MR. : I'm not sure. 16 MR. : Should they know how to 17 conduct counts and rounds? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : And how should they know? 20 MR. : Training. 21 MR. : And do you think everyone 22 there got enough training to know how to do a 23 count and a round? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Did you ever hear of EFTA00110800

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 people, like, filling out count slips, or round 2 sheets? Either before, or at the very start of 3 their shift, for their entire shift, or at the 4 end of the shift for their entire shift? 5 MR. : Not before this incident. 6 MR. : Did you hear about that 7 after this incident? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : What did you hear about 10 that? 11 MR. : That they didn't count. 12 mean, it was filling out slips. It wasn't 13 counted. Wasn't making rounds. 14 MR. : And who was it that you 15 heard that wasn't conducting counts and rounds? 16 MR. -: and 17 MR. : Anybody else in there? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : Did you hear anything 20 about counts and rounds not being conducted 21 prior to midnight on August 10th? So, any time 22 on August 9th, did you hear about any of those 23 counts and rounds not being conducted? 24 MR. : On the morning watch then? 25 MR. : Any time on August 9th. EFTA00110801

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 So, this date. 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Even after the fact, you 4 never heard about, like, the 10:00 III. count, 5 or the 4:00 count, the counts not being 6 conducted? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : You haven't heard that? 9 MR. : No. I don't know. Not that 10 I know of. Some, what, counts on these days? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : No. You have the 4:00 count. 13 You have the 10:00 count. Yeah, the midnight 14 count. Yeah. 15 MR. : Right. So, what I'm 16 asking, did you -- 17 MR. : Have I heard that -- 18 MR. : -- did you hear -- 19 MR. : -- 4:00 and 10:00 -- 20 MR. : -- that (Indiscernible 21 *01:18:33) -- 22 MR. : -- wasn't done? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Now, do lieutenants sign EFTA00110802

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 the counts or the rounds? 2 MR. : The rounds. Not the counts. 3 MR. : So, what is the 4 lieutenants' responsibility for signing the 5 round sheets? 6 MR. : Making sure they're in 7 compliance with the policy. 8 MR. : All right. And do they 9 have to - is there any way for them to verify 10 if the rounds were actually done? 11 MR. Hmm. No. Unless you're 12 doing a - checking a video. 13 MR. : You just - is what you do 14 is just to make sure that the - it's actually 15 filled out? 16 MR. : Correctly. 17 MR. : Correctly filled out? All 18 right. I'm going to - I apologize for this, 19 it's gotten a little longer - so, I'm going to 20 show you. What is this that I'm showing you? 21 MR. : It's a round sheet. 22 MR. : All right. And what is 23 the round sheet from? 24 MR. : The 9th. 25 MR. : The 9th. Did you have EFTA00110803

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 anything - well, as the activities' lieutenant 2 - would of you had anything to do with signing 3 off on any of these? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Which ones would of you 6 signed off on? 7 MR. : Day watch. 8 MR. : Okay. And are you on 9 that? Did you sign any of that? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Where is your signature? 12 MR. : On the day shift. 13 MR. : So, that's your actual 14 signature? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Is that for the SHU? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Who else signed that? 19 MR. : The officer. 20 MR. : Which officer? 21 MR. : I'm not sure. 22 MR. : You can't tell by looking 23 at that? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : All right. And around EFTA00110804

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 what time would of you signed that? Do you 2 know? 3 MR. : Some time on my shift. 4 MR. : All right. So, does that 5 indicate that you would have, then, conducted a 6 round in the SHU? 7 MR. : I'm not sure. 8 MR. : Would of you signed that 9 in the SHU? 10 MR. : Honestly, I'm not sure. 11 MR. : How else would of you 12 gotten it? 13 MR. : I'm not sure. 14 MR. : So, is the SHU sheet ever 15 sent outside of the SHU for the lieutenant to 16 sign? 17 MR. : I'm not sure. I can't recall 18 on this day. 19 MR. : But what I'm asking is, 20 like, have you ever signed one of these round 21 sheets outside of the SHU? 22 MR. : I'm not sure. 23 MR. : Or is it typically that 24 the lieutenant would sign the sheet in the SHU? 25 Because aren't they maintained in the SHU? EFTA00110805

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 MR. : Typically, that's what would 2 happen. 3 MR. : So, typically, you would 4 have signed this in the SHU. Correct? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And would of you signed 7 this after the last one was filled out? I'm 8 assuming they wouldn't fill one out after you 9 signed it, would they? 10 11 12 2:07. Wouldn't that typically mean that you 13 would have been there at least 2:00? 14 MR. : I'm not sure. 15 MR. : But by looking at this 16 document, does that indicate to you, that if 17 you signed it, you would have signed it? Do you 18 ever sign -. Are these continued to be filled 19 out after the - sorry - after the lieutenant 20 signs it? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, even for day watch 23 right here? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : So, you can sign it at MR. : I'm not sure. MR. : So, this one says 2:05, EFTA00110806

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 any point during this, and then, they continue 2 to fill it out? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : All right. And that's 5 what I'm asking. How does that work? I don't 6 know. So, I'm asking. 7 MR. : I mean, it's eight hours. 8 MR. : So, at any point, from 9 8:00 a.m. until basically 2:07 III., you could 10 have signed that? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. And these are 13 genuine questions. They're not I trick you. 14 I'm just asking -- 15 MR. : No. I understand. But it 16 does seem like that, is what I'm saying. 17 MR. : And then, I'm not -- 18 MR. : That's what I'm saying, like 19 20 MR. : I promise you, I'm 21 just asking, like, this isn't, like, an "I 22 gotcha" moment. There's no -- 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : I gotcha moments in 25 this. This is just asking for your, like, your EFTA00110807

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1_ 1 recollection on this. 2 MR. : Yeah, I understand that. But 3 that's why I said, I'm not sure about that. I 4 don't know when I signed it. 5 MR. : All right. And that's 6 so, what I'm asking you, like, is this 7 something, typically, that you would have done? 8 And again, it's not an I gotcha. 9 MR. : Yeah. But again -- 10 MR. : It's just, it's a genuine 11 12 MR. -- I'm not sure. 13 MR. : -- but so, you don't know 14 if - But so, most of the time, I mean, these 15 are maintained in the SHU, and this is - again 16 - this is our learning experience, by talking 17 to people like you, lieutenants -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- that were there. 20 It's, again, not an "I gotcha." It's trying to 21 figure out, how does this process work? 22 MR. : But also, I'm not trying to 23 incriminate myself. 24 MR. : I got -. 25 MR. : Or nothing. That's what I'm EFTA00110808

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 saying. I'm not sure. 2 MR. : But what I'm asking, I 3 guess, is just - and I don't even know what 4 there would be to incriminate you with - but, 5 like, what I'm asking is, like, how does this 6 process work? If you give this person a round 7 sheet, are these round sheets signed in the 8 SHU? 9 MR. : Typically. 10 MR. : Typically. All right. 11 And are you aware of them ever not being signed 12 in the SHU? 13 MR. : I'm not sure. Not that I 14 know of, no. 15 MR. : All right. So, at least 16 more likely than not, you signed this document 17 in the SHU, at some point, between 8:00 and 18 2:00 III.? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So, that means you 21 probably did a round in there? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : All right. And if it was 24 between 8:00 and 2:00 III., both and 25 Epstein were not in their cell at that time, EFTA00110809

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 then, correct? 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : I mean, this isn't, like 4 - again - an I gotcha. I'm just trying to 5 figure out, like, where you fall in this whole 6 thing. 7 MR. : So, that's what I'm trying to 8 figure out. Where do I fall in this whole 9 thing? 10 MR. : Because this is your 11 idea. That's what we're We're talking to 12 you just specifically about, all right, 13 was gone, at some point, he goes WAB. We 14 don't know -. 15 MR. : So, you're trying to say 16 who's to blame for it, or -? 17 MR. : Well, it's also just trying 18 to figure out what happened. We've got to talk 19 to -. 20 MR. : He left. And that's what 21 happened. 22 MR. : Right. And you, when you 23 were there, there was no conversations that you 24 had with anyone? 25 MR. : No conspiracy. No. It's not EFTA00110810

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 2 MR. : No, no, no, and we're not 3 asking -- 4 MR. -- nothing like that. 5 MR. : -- for a conspiracy. 6 It's just, we need to know who, what 7 conversations happened, where, where did the 8 MR. : I didn't know nothing about 9 it until after I saw it in the news. 10 MR. : And this is also me 11 showing you this now is more letting you know, 12 like, okay, that looks like you probably were 13 there. Does that help spark recollection? 14 MR. : I had no conversation with 15 neither one of them that day. Not that I 16 recall. 17 MR. : None of them that day? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : All right. Can you tell, 20 does this look like an RCS to you? 21 MR. : I don't know who -- 22 MR. : Why don't you have a look 23 at this? 24 MR. -- whose signature that is. 25 MR. : All right. So, on day EFTA00110811

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 watch, there was 2 . As well as Does that look 3 like any of those people to you? 4 MR. Hmm. I'm not sure. 5 MR. : Okay. All right. So, 6 you do not recall. And as we go, do you mind 7 just initialing or whatever? Okay. You got 8 those, too, if you don't mind initialing this, 9 and this, and this. Now, although it is 10 voluntary, I guess, we do have to just make 11 sure we know, it also has to be the answers are 12 truthful, you're under oath. So, that also 13 so, lack of candor can also be constituted by 14 not providing full information or, like, hiding 15 information. 16 MR. : No. If I remember, it'll - 17 and I don't hide nothing - but if I remember, 18 then I will say it. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : But when you come with these 21 22 MR. : So, it's just -- 23 MR. : -- saying it looks like, hey, 24 by the way -- 25 MR. : -- and again -- EFTA00110812

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 MR. : -- yeah, and if I'm, like -. 2 MR. : -- our purpose, you would 3 have been interviewed a lot earlier, if there 4 was, like, you know -- 5 MR. : Yeah, but still -- 6 MR. : -- we're -. 7 MR. -- I know, I know being that 8 day, I know it was a big profile case. Hey, 9 let's get such and such, they fill this, and 10 then -- 11 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 12 MR. : -- and I'm, like, come on. 13 MR. : And we just need to know, 14 like, as, you know, we've got make sure that, 15 like, hey, what you do remember, you can tell 16 us. Again, it's voluntary, but, like -- 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- all right. So, these, 19 I'm going to give you these count slips from 20 August 9th up until midnight of August 10th. 21 And is it your understanding that ZA on the 22 count slip, that stands for the SHU? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : All right. Can you just 25 kind of look through those? I'm going to move EFTA00110813

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 this aside for you, so the papers don't get 2 kind of mixed up. Actually, I'm just going to 3 give them back to you, 4 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 5 *01:26:40). 6 MR. : (Indiscernible 7 *01:26:40). 8 MR. : So, I look for what? 9 MR. : Oh, that one. 10 MR. : What am I initialing for? To 11 do what? 12 MR. : So, when we initial these 13 things, it's just to say what we showed you. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : It's not to say you're 16 certifying anything, or that you received 17 anything. It's any document we place in you, 18 this is what we do for everybody. We ask them 19 to initial and date this -- 20 MR. : That I've seen this. 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. -: -- no, that today you've 24 seen this, not that you've seen it before 25 today. It's just that, today, while we're EFTA00110814

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 talking to you, this is in fact the document 2 that we were talking about. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : It's not certifying its 5 accuracy. It's not saying you saw it before 6 today. It's simply to say that's the document 7 we're discussing right now. 8 MR. : And I'm looking for this for 9 MR. : Thank you, sir. 10 MR. : -- or -? 11 MR. : So, look at the ZAs, 12 starting. So, you're - what is this one that I 13 gave you? Is that the 14 MR. : So, this is the 9th at 5:02. 15 MR. : So, 5:00 a.m. count. 16 MR. : a.m., right? 17 MR. : So, okay, so, I gave you 18 the 5:00 a.m. count on the 9th. Can you just 19 take a look at the numbers? You can look at 20 the - is that - what's this first page called? 21 Is that the El? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : All right. So, look at 24 the El. And then, look at the count slip for 25 ZA. So, when you're looking at El, just make EFTA00110815

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 note of what is the number that says on the El, 2 and then, go back to probably the last page, 3 maybe the second to last page, for each, and 4 look at the ZA number, to make sure that it 5 matches with what the El shows. And I just 6 want you to do that for the one -. 7 MR. : You said the El and the what? 8 MR. : The El and the count slip 9 for ZA. 10 MR. : The count slips are in the 11 back. 12 MR. : should be either the last 13 or the second to last page. And I just -- 14 MR. : Where it's 5:00 in the 15 morning? 16 MR. : -- that's 5:00 in the 17 morning on the 9th. So, what do those numbers 18 show? 19 MR. : In ZA? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : So, 77. 22 MR. : Does it say both of them, 23 77? 24 MR. : On the El, yeah. 25 MR. : All right. Cool. Now, EFTA00110816

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 you can just initial and date that, and move it 2 aside. Again, these aren't I gotcha moments. 3 These just help us explain some stuff. All 4 right. So, this El, well, can you tell me what 5 it says for the ZA on this one? And this is, 6 what, the 5:00 III. count? What is this? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. 4:00 III. 9 MR. : 4:00 III., I mean. 10 MR. : It's 4:00 count. But yeah. 11 So, that ZA is 75. 12 MR. : 75. And the last one was 13 77? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And what does that say? 16 MR. : 75. 17 MR. : All right. 75. Cool. 18 Can you just initial that and put that on the 19 side? And you'll understand the question after 20 you look at these. And again, it's not an I 21 gotcha. It's to help us explain something. 22 All right. 23 MR. : What y'all trying to explain, 24 though? 25 MR. : The count changes, and EFTA00110817

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 I'm going to ask you how you can - if there's a 2 way for you to be able to figure out how this 3 count changed. All right. Can you look at the 4 El on here, and compare it to the count slip 5 back there? What is the -? 6 MR. : And it's the 10:00 count, 7 right? 8 MR. : 10:00 III. count on 9 August 9th. 10 MR. : Yeah. 73. 11 MR. : 73? On both? And is there 12 a count - does the count slip say something 13 weird on that one? 14 MR. : No, I'm just looking at the 15 seven. 16 MR. : Does it say, like, 73 17 plus one on there? 18 MR. : Oh, yeah. It does. 19 MR. : Have you ever seen a plus 20 one on any before, or could you understand a 21 reason why someone will put plus one? 22 MR. : Plus one. No. I don't know 23 about a plus one. 24 MR. : All right. Now, this is 25 the one that I really want you to look at. EFTA00110818

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 Look at this El. This is now August 10th at 2 midnight. Check out what it says for ZA on the 3 El. What number does that say? 4 MR. : 72. 5 MR. : All right. And check out 6 the count slip. 7 MR. : What does the count slip say? 8 MR. : It says 73. 9 MR. : So, 73, but the top one, 10 that was clear, it says 72. Right? 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : And I'll give you one 13 more, just so it's not a magic trick, look at 14 this page first, for the August 10th, and I 15 have the rest of them, too, if you want to see 16 them, but 3:00 a.m. on August 10th, and then, 17 the last page where it says the count slip. 18 What does it say on the El on the next one? 19 MR. : It says 72. 20 MR. : And on the El. And then, 21 what does the count slip say? 22 MR. : 72. 23 MR. : So, in looking at all 24 this, does that tell you - as a lieutenant and 25 someone who worked in the SHU - does that tell EFTA00110819

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 you something? 2 MR. : Yeah, but the thing is, this 3 one had up, though. 4 MR. : That's exactly -- 5 MR. : That way and clear the count. 6 MR. : -- that's exactly right. 7 So, we're trying to figure out where did this 8 count change down the 72? And does it indicate 9 to you that these counts were not actually 10 conducted? And this is not -- 11 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:33:00). 12 MR. : -- and this is not -- 13 MR. : It's the 9:00 count. 14 MR. : -- we have no reason to 15 believe you were involved in this. So, I want 16 to make sure you're -. We're actually just 17 looking for your help here. As someone who 18 worked in the SHU, and as someone that is 19 familiar with these kinds of documents, can you 20 help us put this puzzle together? How - so we 21 have reason to believe that they called in at 22 midnight 73 -- 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : -- and the control 25 lieutenant, who was working that night, figured EFTA00110820

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 out there's actually only 72 people in there. 2 They've been calling in 73, but there's only 72 3 people in the SHU. Is there any way, from 4 looking - and that's from this point forward, 5 they're now start -- 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : -- calling in 72 - is 8 there any way, from looking at these, you're 9 able to determine, with your knowledge and 10 experience, where that changed? I would say 11 that it changed from the 10:00 count. This was 12 printed at 9:33. So, it has 73. And then, at 13 9:33, attorney conference ain't open. So, 14 Epstein would have probably been up by then. 15 He would have went back to the SHU. 16 MR. : So, he would have been 17 listed on -. Epstein would have been back at 18 least by 8:00 III., right? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So, that would have -- 21 MR. : So, he should have been on 22 this count. 23 MR. : -- he should have been on 24 this one. 25 MR. : So, he threw it, yeah. EFTA00110821

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 MR. : And can you see where on 2 the - let's talk about, I guess, what's the one 3 before? The 5:00 p.m.? The 4:00 p.m.? 4 MR. : Yeah, he would have been at 5 attorney conference. Yeah. 6 MR. : And it would have showed 7 him at attorney conference on one of these, 8 correct? On the El? 9 MR. : Yeah. At 3:00, at attorney 10 conference. Well, from SHU. 11 MR. : And then, does it show 12 that he's already in SHU in this one? Is there 13 any way an attorney conference at the 10:00 14 p.m. count? 15 MR. : No. But see, what I was 16 telling you before about the numbers, see how I 17 had 76? 18 MR. : Yup. 19 MR. : And this is at the 4:00 20 count. And then, it went down to 73? 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : So, you don't know until 23 after the count, about the whole cellmate 24 coming back. 25 MR. : Right. But then, the EFTA00110822

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 weird part about it is going from 73 to 72, 2 with no movement. 3 MR. : So, we don't know, okay, 4 so, they're taking off, you know, if they're 5 going from - what does it say? 76? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Down to 73. That's three 8 people, and one person vanishes. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : When it gets to 72. Are 11 you able to tell where that person vanished 12 from, or is it impossible because, possibly, 13 all of these counts were not conducted, and 14 that's - I know you weren't here for any of 15 these counts, apparently, so it's, again, I'm 16 just asking for your guidance - is that 17 correct? You weren't even working when any of 18 these counts were conducted? 19 MR. : Yeah, well, if I was - you 20 said 4:00, right? 21 MR. : Well, you possibly worked 22 up until 4:00. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : But -. 25 MR. : So, I wasn't here. I wasn't EFTA00110823

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 there for the count. 2 MR. : Right. So again -- 3 MR. : 76. 4 MR. : I want to reassure you 5 this isn't an I gotcha moment. We're just 6 trying to help -- 7 MR. : No, no, but you know it feels 8 like it. 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah -- 10 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:36:12). 11 MR. -- and I get that because 12 you've got special agents talking to you -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : -- it's just all about 15 trying to piece the puzzle together. So, we 16 need help with people like yourself, to be able 17 to say, what the hell happened? You know what 18 mean? 19 MR. : Yeah. Well, there's also 20 three here. From (Indiscernible *01:36:28). 21 mean, I think I'm -- 22 MR. : And we've had other -- 23 MR. -- and we hadn't keyed thew 24 out, that's what it is. 25 MR. : And you just -. EFTA00110824

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 MR. : Oh, they hadn't keyed them 2 out. But then, they would have keyed them out. 3 R&D leaves at 10:00. They leave at 10:00. 4 Now, they could have left somebody on, and then 5 came out. Because like you said, it's no 6 movement. The only way you get it is you key 7 out. Like, key a guy unless somebody went to 8 the hospital or something. 9 MR. : Yeah, and if there is 10 nothing that happened, but no inmates were 11 moved after 10:00 III. If we know that, does 12 this indicate that they were just going off on 13 numbers and just falsifying their counts, or 14 are you able to tell, by looking at these at 15 all -- 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- if these counts are 18 legit or not? Are you able to kind of, like, 19 give us any insight into that? 20 MR. : I mean, the one with the plus 21 one is a question because I don't see why they 22 would -. Then again, you've got R&D with a 23 plus one, too. I don't know. I don't know 24 what's going on. They got R&D, (Indiscernible 25 *01:37:57) cell plus one. EFTA00110825

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 MR. : And by looking at that 2 person in R&D, are you able to tell who that 3 is? 4 MR. : Hmm-mm. 5 MR. : Not by looking at that 6 name? 7 MR. : Not by the name. I mean, 8 there's no out count. Don't have the out 9 count. 10 MR. : Don't have the out count? 11 Is that what you're saying? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : And what time is that 14 for? 15 MR. : Well, I can't - you don't 16 have the out count. 17 MR. : No, what time are you 18 looking at? 19 MR. : This one is for the 10:00. 20 MR. : So, the 10:00 III. 21 doesn't even have an out count on it? 22 MR. : I mean, it don't add up 23 because - yeah, something is not right 24 because R&D is not on here. Unless they moved. 25 I mean, some time, they say a ghost count, but EFTA00110826

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MR. : And what does a ghost 3 count mean? 4 MR. : -- so, like, the guys in 5 medical, they say, hey, I didn't have time to 6 key him in, but I'm verifying that he's down 133 7 here with me, and put him on my count 8 MR. : So, R&D. Does that say 9 95 plus one? 10 MR. : It could say 95 or it could 11 say 9-South. 12 MR. : Oh, 9-South plus one. 13 MR. : What is 9-South? 14 MR. : The SHU. 15 MR. : Now, this name, to me, 16 looks like.' (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:27). 17 Do you know any -- 18 MR. . Yeah. 19 MR. -: -- so, is that somebody's 20 name? 21 MR. : Yeah. That's an officer. 22 MR. : So, if someone was placed 23 in R&D, and someone was told to watch that 24 person there, would the person - at 10:00 III. 25 - would they be able to see like a dry cell, EFTA00110827

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 someone was still there at night? 2 MR. : Well, yeah, because you could 3 watch them down here, yeah. 4 MR. : And is that like a small 5 (Indiscernible *01:39:52)? Is it kind of like 6 you'd be able to - that person would know if 7 somebody was there or not? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Verify it. 10 MR. : Because someone could have 11 came in before the count, too. A U.S. Marshal 12 could have brung one in, and they said, hey, 13 watch this guy. He's going to 9-South. That's 14 why the plus one is throwing me off. 15 MR. : Have you ever seen plus 16 one on anything before? 17 MR. : No. I heard people calling 18 in with a plus one. But then, again, I say 19 that's like a ghost. A ghost count. 20 MR. : All right. Does this 21 MR. : But it mess up the base 22 count, though. 23 MR. : -- but seeing, especially 24 looking at the 72 -- 25 MR. : Yeah, I don't know how that EFTA00110828

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 happened. 2 MR. : -- and does this at all 3 tell you anything about any of these counts? 4 MR. : Hmm. 5 MR. : Like, we've had other 6 people, you know, in higher positions saying, 7 to me, it tells me that the counts weren't 8 done. Does that tell you that? 9 MR. : Yeah, but at 10:00? Pfft, I 10 mean, yeah. I don't know, man. Yeah. I mean, 11 I couldn't tell you, man. 12 MR. : All right. So -. 13 MR. : I couldn't tell you. I don't 14 know. I don't understand that. 15 MR. : Okay. So, is it just a 16 baffling type of deal? Because it's baffling 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- to us, and then, we're 19 just hoping that people can kind of help us - 20 especially people that were there -. 21 MR. : I don't know. See, that's 22 why I don't understand that. I don't see how 23 they get 73 at the 10:00 count, and then they 24 lose one after the 10:00 count. 25 MR. : And that's the same EFTA00110829

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 thing. We're trying to figure that out. 2 MR. : Unless it wasn't keyed in the 3 system. 4 MR. : At what point - are you 5 able to tell - at what point it should have 6 been keyed in the system by that? 7 MR. : Well, if a guy came into R&D, 8 and they keyed him in SHU, and then put him 9 back in R&D. 10 MR. : So if he like went to SHU 11 12 MR. : He never went to SHU. 13 MR. : -- and then back? 14 MR. : They keyed him in the SHU. 15 They put him on this count. But he didn't make 16 it. So, the medical and stuff taking the guy 17 out. So, they say, hey, leave him down there, 18 and count him in R&D. I could see that 19 happening. 20 MR. : So if, like, he's in 21 medical, and they can't -- 22 MR. : Well, so like, medical comes 23 down there, and they checking him out, and he 24 don't make it up time in SHU, for the time, 25 seeing they could say, hey, well, I'm not EFTA00110830

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 putting him on our count, put him down there. 2 MR. : So, that would be like 3 the ghost count you're talking about? 4 MR. : No, that's a real count. 5 MR. : But if he's -. 6 MR. : That's just saying someone 7 put him in there but took him out. 8 MR. : All right. But if he's 9 not physically there, he's not actually allowed 10 to be on the count. Is he? 11 MR. : Exactly. No. That's why - 12 and this is, I don't - you see, this says RA? 13 That's R&D. 14 MR. : And does it say anybody's 15 in R&D over on this one? 16 MR. : Well, there's no out count, 17 and that's what I'm saying. There's no out 18 count with that one. 19 MR. : So, this RA -- 20 MR. : RA and R&D are separate. 21 MR. -- is one. 22 MR. : You need an out count for 23 this. You don't need an out count for that. 24 This is a unit. 25 MR. : But as far as this goes, EFTA00110831

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 we're looking at the midnight and the 10:00 2 III., right? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : So, at midnight, there is 5 RA1, and the midnight, but at the 10:00 III 6 you know -- 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : -- two hours earlier, the 9 zero. Correct? 10 MR. : So I'm thinking this dude 11 went back to RA. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : That's how they lost someone. 14 MR. : But there is a count slip? 15 MR. : For RA or R&D? 16 MR. : What's he talking about? 17 MR. : So, RA 18 MR. : That's the thing. That it 19 was -- 20 MR. : -- isn't the count slip 21 for - (Indiscernible *01:43:21). 22 MR. : At the top. 23 MR. : That's R&D. 24 MR. : Well, they could have messed 25 up. They should have had the RA count slip for EFTA00110832

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 that one. 2 MR. : What's the difference between 3 RA and R&D? 4 MR. : RA is a real unit. So, when 5 the guys come back from court, they're in RA 6 status. R&D is when they keyed out. 7 MR. : To go to leave? 8 MR. : To go to court. But if they 9 come back, they came back in their unit. If 10 they don't come back, they release them from 11 R&D. But RA is technically a unit. 12 MR. : And it doesn't count as a - 13 it doesn't show up as R&D? 14 MR. : No. (Indiscernible 15 *01:43:57). 16 MR. : Where would that one slip 17 - that says R&D in there - where would that 18 show up here? 19 MR. : That would be right here. 20 But they don't have nobody in R&D. 21 MR. : So, there's - and so, is 22 that even weirder, the fact that, at the 10:00 23 III. count, there's a count slip for R&D, and 24 there's nobody for R&D on this? 25 MR. : That's why I think they put EFTA00110833

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 him, and they keyed him in SHU. They keyed him 2 in SHU, the inmate, and then put him down in 3 R&D. And then, changed it after the count. Or 4 they could have changed it right after this 5 count cleared, and set it up for the next 6 count, say the inmates, the inmate is in - this 7 is the 10:00? 8 MR. : Yeah, that one is the 9 10:00 M. 10 MR. : Yeah. And you have the 11 midnight one. 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : That's the midnight one 14 right there. 15 MR. : That's the 3:00. 16 MR. : Oh. 17 MR. : See, (Indiscernible 18 *01:44:44) right here. 19 MR. : Oh, I think I took it. 20 MR. : So, whoever was in SHU, they 21 put him, and they keyed him into RA and R&D. 22 MR. : This is the midnight. 23 MR. : Yeah. So that's what 24 happened. 25 MR. : Does R&D have like a dry cell EFTA00110834

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 or a dry room? 2 MR. : No, they got cells. You see, 3 they got RA right here. Yeah, that's what 4 happened. I think the guy came from SHU and 5 went to RA. That's why they lost one. 6 MR. : And can you think of why 7 a person would go from SHU to RA, at that late 8 at night? 9 MR. : Body scan. Probably pulled 10 something. And they kept him down there, put 11 him through the x-ray. 12 MR. : And is there any way - by 13 looking at these - you can see how Is there 14 - you said the 4:00 III.? 15 MR. : Yeah. That's the 4:00 III. 16 MR. : Is the person in R&D a- 17 4:00 III.? Are you able to tell by this? 18 MR. : Let me see. You know the 19 inmate that was down there or no? 20 MR. : I think Fernandez. Is 21 that right? 22 MR. : Was he a witsec dude? 23 MR. : Do you anything about 24 him? 25 MR. : No, I don't. EFTA00110835

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 MR. : Yeah, but that's what it 2 looks like. It looks like they took a guy to 3 SHU, and put him in R&D, but instead of keying 4 him in R&D, they keyed him RA. Yeah. That's 5 what it looks like. 6 MR. : So, at the 4:00 III., was 7 he anything to do with Fernandez on that, or 8 anything to do with somebody in -? 9 MR. : Well, the 4:00 III. is - no, 10 because no one is out from R&D. Let me see. 11 You've got one from 11-South. You've got no 12 one else from R&D. 13 MR. : But it's also said that 14 at the 10:00 III., right? Or I don't know which 15 one I'm looking at right there, but -. 16 MR. : No, you have one out here. 17 Yeah. But it looks like this inmate, from 18 10:00, they did the count at 10:00. Plus one. 19 Yeah. Plus one. Yeah. It seemed like they 20 got screwed up by something. Either moving 21 this guy to R&D, or whatever. I mean, the 22 count slip shouldn't have accepted anyway, 23 though. So, in the 9-South, plus one. Like, 24 don't know why that was written, but -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00110836

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 MR. : -- that's what it looked 2 like. The guy came from 9-South, he went in 3 the RA. He stayed there throughout the night. 4 Whoever the inmate was -- 5 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 6 MR. -- right there. 7 MR. : And we have reason to 8 believe that that is the case. That there is a 9 guy that was in, you know, he did stay there at 10 the night, and he had somebody on him, and 11 that's one of the reasons why we want to talk 12 to somebody that was in R&D to be able to 13 verify hey, was that guy really there? 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : And by looking at that, 16 would that be that individual we just talked 17 about? 18 MR. : 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Who did the count slip? 21 MR. : It's based on the count slip 22 (Indiscernible *01:48:18). 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Um all right. Does this 25 tell you anything else? Just before we move EFTA00110837

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 on. 2 MR. : I mean just -. I don't know. 3 Yeah. I don't know. I don't understand it. 4 That's the only thing I think they probably 5 took him down for that then. 6 MR. : Is there - which, from 7 looking at these, what basic like counts seem 8 bad to you? Does this 10:00 III. one seem like 9 a bad count to you? The way that it - what you 10 just looked at? When there's nothing on the El 11 and there's a count slip? 12 MR. : Uh. 13 MR. : If you were working that 14 night and you got a count like that, is that a 15 good count or bad count? 16 MR. : I would have said bad count. 17 MR. : And who - can you tell by 18 looking at this - who was the one who took this 19 count? 20 MR. : Uh 21 MR. -: ? And was there any 22 lieutenants involved with this? 23 MR. : I mean there could have been. 24 I'm not sure. 25 MR. : But by looking at it like EFTA00110838

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 I think like probably the midnight one there 2 was an actual ops lieutenant. Are you able to 3 tell that by looking at the - I think the ops 4 lieutenant is the one who caught it at 5 midnight? Are you able to tell that that -? 6 MR. : Oh this one here? 7 MR. : Yeah. Are you able to - 8 by looking at these, are you able to tell when 9 the lieutenant actually took the count? 10 MR. : It was - says she took the 11 count - took the count at midnight. 12 MR. : All right. And it shows 13 on it? I'm looking at it upside down 14 so I can't even see. 15 MR. : That's what it says yeah. 16 MR. : And on this one does it 17 show any lieutenant was involved? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : So it would just been 20 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : All right. 23 MR. : What about the 4:00 p.m.? 24 Does it show the lieutenant's name on the 4:00 25 p.m.? EFTA00110839

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Do you have any idea what 3 first name is? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : But this does seem like a 6 bad El. 7 MR. : El seems good. But um -. 8 MR. : Even though that no one 9 is listed on R&D? 10 MR. : Yeah that's what's confusing. 11 Like -. 12 MR. : Because then you say 13 there's a count slip for -. 14 MR. : This is at 9:33. 15 MR. : Wasn't that just one that 16 was printed? Oh. Because the numbers are 17 printed on that? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : I see what you're saying. 20 So after 9:33 possibly, something changed? 21 MR. : So that could be two things. 22 Either the Marshals was trying to get one in 23 before the count and they thought they had 24 enough time to process him upstairs. And then 25 when they call in the count, it's wrong. Like EFTA00110840

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 hold on that's not it. Yeah. 2 MR. : And that's what I mean by 3 wouldn't this be incorrect if they get a count 4 slip that's not listed on the El? 5 MR. : Yeah. They got a - which one 6 did they get? R&D? Yeah. Yep. That would be 7 a bad one. 8 MR. : All right. So for this 9 it seems like the 10:00 III. on August 9th was 10 a bad El and as far as the midnight, it seems 11 like it's the count slip that's a bad slip. Is 12 that correct? Whatever that's (Indiscernible 13 *01:51:13). I'm sorry, I'm in the -. So it 14 seems like the El is good at midnight, but the 15 count slip is bad at midnight for ZA. And 16 we're primarily asking you this stuff just 17 because we've got to write a report about what 18 we're finding. And we don't want to sound - we 19 don't want to be wrong. You know what I mean? 20 MR. : Yeah. Yeah so, the count 21 slip is wrong on this one. 22 MR. : So midnight count slip is 23 wrong, El seems right. The El at 10:00 III. 24 seems wrong, but the count slips seems right. 25 At least for R&D. I - we have reason to EFTA00110841

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 believe the count slip for ZA is also wrong for 2 3 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 4 MR. : -- 10:00 III. because -. 5 Well it depends, I guess, like you said, what 6 time the individual was moved to R&D. We've 7 been told that after the you know -. People 8 are all moved prior to this time. So if that 9 person was in R&D, it would have been prior to 10 the 10:00 III. count. Does that sound right to 11 you? 12 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 13 mean something could have happened. And you 14 know taken this guy downstairs. 15 MR. : And that's why we need to 16 talk to people. So by looking at this, are you 17 able to like figure out who we can talk to? To 18 see if something happened at 10:00 III. to 19 change this count and make this -? 20 MR. : Did you see the log already? 21 MR. : The lieutenant's log? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Do we have it? Yeah. I 24 have it. 25 MR. : Anything with log? EFTA00110842

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MR. : Um so here's the - yeah. 2 So here's the log from the day you were on. 3 That's the August - it says August 10th, but 4 you know it's the August 9th log in there. Are 5 you able to tell by looking at that? And 6 here's the day after. So this is the - you've 7 got the August 9th -- 8 MR. : Okay. So moving him to the 9 dry cell. 10 MR. : -- and the August 10th. 11 MR. : Okay. So he put someone in 12 dry cell. 13 MR. : Dry cell is in the SHU isn't 14 it? 15 MR. : Yeah. If there's space. 16 Okay. So it looks like they didn't key the guy 17 up. He went to dry cell depending on what 18 time. 19 MR. : And are you able to tell 20 by these lieutenant's - I think you've got the 21 actual lieutenant log back there and I would 22 assume that that's when it should be documented 23 when people are moved. Correct? Are you able 24 to tell by looking at that when someone - you 25 know this person was moved to dry cell? EFTA00110843

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 MR. : Eh. 2 MR. : Oh. And also if you've 3 got that, are you able to tell by looking at 4 that when you worked until? No? 5 MR. : No. I wouldn't have done a 6 log that day from activities. 7 MR. : Yeah. I just didn't know 8 if it like mentioned when people - you know ops 9 or activities started or stopped. 10 MR. : No. It doesn't say when he 11 It just says Inmate Fernandez on dry cell. 12 It doesn't say when he went though. 13 MR. : There's no time associated 14 with the movement on there? 15 MR. : Should have there been? 16 MR. : I mean that's good to put it 17 there yeah. 18 MR. : So you said you wouldn't 19 have been associated with the lieutenant's log. 20 Who does the lieutenant's log? 21 MR. : Ops should take care of it. 22 MR. : Ops would so on your 23 shift it would have been 24 MR. : Yeah. But Fernandez is 25 already on dry cell on day watch it says. EFTA00110844

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 MR. : And that's where we get 2 confused. And that's why we have reason to 3 believe - because it seems like Fernandez was 4 put on day watch. 5 MR. : At 3:15. Yeah. 6 MR. : Does it say 3:15 he was 7 placed on there? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So that indicates to us 10 the 4:00 III. and that 10:00 III. count were 11 also both bad. He wasn't in the SHU. Does 12 that make sense to you? 13 MR. : I think he was -. Yeah. He 14 wasn't in the SHU, but he was he was still 15 keyed in SHU. 16 MR. : He was still keyed in the 17 SHU, but he wasn't there? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Right. So for the Els, 20 they would still show it. The only way the 21 people in control would know it is if SHU 22 actually did their count and said we only got 23 72 people in here not 73. Right? 24 MR. : I mean.... 25 MR. : Because people working in EFTA00110845

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 the SHU. They know hey, we only count bodies 2 that are present. 3 MR. : Oh hold on. This is the 9th. 4 Okay. So he went to -. Transfer to special 5 housing - dry cell at 4:00. 6 MR. : At 4:00 it says? 7 MR. : On the 9th. This is done on 8 the night before. Okay. Okay. 9 MR. : Can you -? And again I 10 promise you, not a "gotcha." You're being a 11 very extremely help. Can you just note on 12 there where you're seeing these different 13 things? If you can tell at what time he was 14 moved? 15 MR. : Well this just looks like the 16 log is the same. 17 MR. : We also have reason to 18 believe that people manipulated the log after 19 the fact. 20 MR. : Yeah. That's what I'm 21 saying. Some things are (Indiscernible 22 *01:57:13). 23 MR. : Do you know anything 24 about that? While I mentioned that? 25 MR. : No. I see SHU corrections; EFTA00110846

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 Fernandez; dry cell; RA; Saturday. Yeah. So I 2 mean that's pretty much whatever. I think that 3 the dial was still keyed in the SHU. 4 MR. : But as far as -- 5 MR. : In the building physically. 6 MR. : -- are you able to -? 7 Did you say that you saw something in there 8 that said either 3:15 or then you said 4:00 9 after that? Where are you seeing that? 10 MR. : No. It looks like -- 11 MR. : The 3:00. 12 MR. : -- they're saying the guy was 13 transferred back to SHU. Hold on. But this 14 also says that I was - I relieved as 15 day watch ops. 16 MR. : It says you relieved 17 as day watch ops? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Instead of 20 mean 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Is that wrong? 23 MR. : Mm. 24 MR. : Or was it that 25 potentially was late, and you relieved EFTA00110847

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 her? 2 MR. : I don't know. I'm not sure. 3 MR. : Would that be like a 4 possibility? Like can they do that? Even if 5 you're activities' lieutenant, if she wants to 6 leave and you're there and - who is the 7 ops lieutenant - wasn't? Can they say that you 8 relieved her even though you were activities' 9 lieutenant? 10 MR. : Mm. 11 MR. : Or is she not supposed to 12 write that? Or not supposed to be in there? 13 MR. : So who wrote that? 14 MR. Uh I don't know. It could be 15 - that's the thing. It could be a - it's like 16 a from the days prior. So if you don't catch 17 it, you just going to keep it the same. So 18 it's like - because I'm ops - I know I was ops. 19 That's what I'm saying. So I must have came in 20 on doing overtime that day. So normally I 21 would relieve her. So she probably left it 22 that way anyway thinking okay it's the same. 23 You're not changing that. You know? 24 *01:59:23 25 MR. : Oh you mean the day EFTA00110848

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 before you were ops is what you're saying? 2 MR. : Yeah. I think I was ops that 3 whole quarter though. I think so yeah. 4 MR. : So you were - that whole 5 quarter you were ops? Why were you -? 6 MR. : Overtime. 7 MR. : So overtime was a 8 different duty? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So you were the ops 11 lieutenant up until that day? You were 12 activities' lieutenant that day though? 13 MR. : Yeah. I think so. 14 MR. : So being that you were 15 ops, were you also potentially acting as like 16 the ops lieutenant? 17 MR. : Mm. 18 MR. : Like as in like since 19 that were your normal duties would have you 20 also took - taken that on? Like hey, I know 21 I'm activities, but I'll do the ops role? And 22 this is, again, just to try to help recollect - 23 24 MR. : I don't know. 25 MR. : -- what you were doing. EFTA00110849

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 MR. : I think I was ops that 2 quarter though. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Yeah. I was ops. 5 MR. : Again we don't have your 6 records. There was no reason for us to be 7 grabbing your records or anything like that. 8 So everything we're asking you about is simply 9 to help us fill in the blanks. 10 MR. : So based on what you said, 11 you think it's - the log is from previous date. 12 It was just a spite edit that wasn't caught on 13 to. 14 MR. : Yeah. The dry cell stuff. I 15 don't know about all that. But that's what it 16 looks like. It looked like the guy was in 17 there and they didn't key him out even though 18 he was in R&D. 19 MR. : So let's say if I'm in SHU 20 and I wanted to move somebody. Or you wanted 21 to move somebody in the SHU. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : You're going to - do you key 24 it in, or do you call in to somebody and tell 25 them to key it in? Who keys it in? EFTA00110850

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 MR. : You can do it if you want to. 2 You can do it by yourself. 3 MR. : And let's say you move it. 4 Is someone supposed to be notified hey, listen 5 this person is moved? Or you - the SHU CO's 6 can move the inmates by themselves? 7 MR. : Someone from a different 8 unit? 9 MR. : Yeah. Like control or R&D? 10 MR. : No you tell - you can call 11 control. 12 MR. : Is it policy that control 13 must be notified? 14 MR. : I don't know if it's policy, 15 but I mean, they taking a count it's good to 16 know. Hey, this is what's going on - got to 17 move this guy down to dry cell. 18 MR. : And let's say - sorry. 19 ahead. 20 MR. : I was going to say I 21 guess - are you asking like who is responsible 22 for doing the keying? Yeah who -? 23 MR. : It could be CNA. 24 MR. : What's CNA? 25 MR. : Control number two. EFTA00110851

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 MR. : Okay. But control would 2 be responsible for him. It's not ops or SHU 3 that would have been responsible for 4 (Indiscernible *02:01:28). It's control that 5 was -- 6 MR. : I mean SHU could -- 7 MR. : -- responsible for -? 8 MR. -- make that change though. 9 MR. : SHU could? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : It's not an ops 12 responsibility or activities'? 13 MR. : I mean if they say hey, 14 need this guy in dry cell. You know. Okay. 15 You notify them. You know hey, move him. 16 MR. : Okay. I guess though 17 what we're saying is like under the regular 18 practice - I understand that other - some 19 people have the ability to do it. But who 20 should have done it? 21 MR. : Should have moved keyed the 22 inmate from -- 23 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 24 MR. : SHU to R&D? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00110852

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 MR. : Uh CNA, control. 2 MR. : Control should have? 3 MR. : Number two. Yeah. 4 MR. : And how should have they 5 been notified that they needed to make that 6 change? Who should have notified them that 7 that change needed to be made? 8 MR. Mm. I mean SHU could have 9 called ahead. This guy is keyed up here. He's 10 keyed down there. 11 MR. : So I guess what I'm 12 saying is like once an inmate is moved, and 13 control needs to be notified. Hey, this guy 14 that was in SHU is now in R&A. Who needs to 15 notify control to make those changes in the 16 system? 17 MR. : The SHU. Hey this guy is 18 down there. 19 MR. : So the SHU. 20 MR. : They'll call control. Yean. 21 MR. : Okay. So whenever - 22 let's say for instance we believe Fernandez was 23 moved from the SHU to R&A on dry cell. The SHU 24 should have contacted control and said we just 25 made this movement. He needs to be rekeyed. EFTA00110853

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : All right. That's the 3 way it works? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : And again, these are just 6 questions. We don't know. 7 MR. : It could be that or the 8 lieutenant could do it. Either or. Hey, I'm 9 moving this guy. I'm moving him here. 10 MR. : So should have a 11 lieutenant been involved in that? 12 MR. : Not necessarily. 13 MR. : Okay. And that's why 14 we're just trying to figure out what is the 15 standard operating procedure? Like what is - 16 typically - what is supposed to happen? 17 MR. : I mean there's no typical. 18 You get it done. Hey, I'm telling you to move 19 him. Or I say I'm moving this guy. The 20 lieutenant told me to move him. And yeah. 21 MR. : I guess but if anybody 22 can do it and no one is told to do it, I guess 23 - I would assume - that it would quite 24 frequently not be done because everyone would 25 be like "well he could have done it - he should EFTA00110854

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 have done it." I'm saying like who is usually 2 supposed to do it? Who is like supposed to 3 take the lead of - make sure that that's done 4 or "we just moved this guy - control you know 5 like key that out." Like how is it supposed to 6 be done? Because otherwise, it's always going 7 to fall apart because then everyone is going to 8 say, "well that person could have done it - 9 that person could have done it." 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : So is there anybody 12 that's supposed to do it? 13 MR. : To notify? 14 MR. : Yeah. To make the 15 notifications so that the numbers can be 16 changed on the El? 17 MR. : Yeah. I would say the SHU 18 staff. 19 MR. : SHU staff. 20 MR. : They kind of say hey, this 21 guy is not up there. check to see where he's 22 at. 23 MR. : All right. 24 MR. : Maybe key him to R&D. 25 MR. : Sorry I didn't mean EFTA00110855

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 MR. : No-no. That's exactly what I 2 was thinking or trying to get to. You said the 3 SHU staff could also key it in. If they keyed 4 it in, would this El document get updated? 5 MR. : Well these -. 6 MR. : Or would control have to 7 update it? 8 MR. : Control will update it. 9 MR. : So no matter even if the SHU 10 staff decided if they wanted to update it, 11 control manually has to update this document 12 specifically. 13 MR. : Yeah. Put a number on it. 14 Because this is the last one that was printed. 15 And then you make a change after that it's not 16 going to show. 17 MR. : Okay. This was -. 18 MR. : 9:30. 19 MR. : 9:30. But let's see the 4:00 20 count. I just want to see what time that 21 was printed. 22 MR. : 3:40. 23 MR. : And according to that, the 24 inmate was supposed to be moved at 3:15? 25 MR. : Nah. EFTA00110856

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1, 1 MR. : The daily log -? 2 MR. : Well you said two 3 different - I was going to back to that. You 4 said - one time you said 3:15 and the other 5 time you said 4:00 III. Are you able to tell? 6 MR. : Yeah. It looks like 7 Okay. So let's start with this. This is the 8 9th, right? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : So you got nobody starting 11 the shift on dry cell. So this says 3:15 12 inmate Fernandez placed on dry cell from SHU. 13 MR. : Can you just put a star 14 next to that? All right. So then you believe 15 that that is where things got screwed up? They 16 never keyed him out. 17 MR. : Yeah. Inmate Fernandez 18 placed on dry cell; 75 in SHU; I do believe 19 .... All right. So at 9:00 on August 20 9th Friday he goes in at 3:15 in dry cell. And 21 he stays in there overnight. So the 4:00 22 count, he's still keyed in there though, right? 23 MR. : Well that's what we're 24 trying to figure out. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00110857

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 MR. : Because it's not caught 2 until -. So we believe from people that we 3 talked to, it was caught at midnight. And that 4 person who caught it said like this person is 5 on dry cell and then revised the numbers and 6 the count. 7 MR. : Mm-hm. 8 MR. : Now we're trying to 9 determine were the counts ever conducted in the 10 SHU? 11 MR. : Mm. 12 MR. : It doesn't appear to us 13 that they would have been. Because they would 14 have caught that at 4:00 III. and the 10:00 15 They would have said this is the number 16 of people we physically have present. 17 MR. : Yeah but I don't see -. 18 MR. : And even at midnight it 19 still says 73. And it's changed to 72. And to 20 us it suggests - and everyone else that we're 21 talking to - that we haven't shared this 22 information with many people. You're one of a 23 very select few that we're even showing this 24 stuff to. 25 MR. : Mm-hm. EFTA00110858

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 MR. : But the people that we've 2 showed it to before says, hey the fact that 3 they're reporting 73 and the actual count is 4 72, they're basically getting the number from 5 this and just writing that down. They're not 6 actually conducting the counts. Would you 7 agree with that statement? 8 MR. : They could do that. Or they 9 could actually be counting but not counting. 10 Making sure that they're just walking and 11 making sure they're alive. 12 MR. : So doing more of a round 13 than a count? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And that is also one of 16 the things that we believe happened. Is that 17 at least on one of the instances, they did do a 18 round, but they didn't do an actual count. 19 MR. : Yeah. Because honestly, I 20 don't see it on this end. A 4:00 and a 10:00. 21 MR. : You don't see what? 22 MR. : The missing of 4:00 and 23 10:00. 24 MR. : Yeah. The fact that they 25 missed both seems very unlikely. EFTA00110859

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : If they're actually 3 counting. Correct? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : And that's why we believe 6 - and it sounds like you agree - they didn't 7 actually do the 4:00, the 10:00, or the 8 midnight count. 9 MR. : No. I mean I'm thinking they 10 did to the 4:00 and the 10:00. 11 MR. : Even though the numbers 12 are wrong? 13 MR. : Yeah. They probably just 14 went off the numbers. 15 MR. : SO you think -- 16 MR. : What -- 17 MR. : -- they conducted the round? 18 MR. : They conducted a round 19 not a count. 20 MR. : Yeah. Or something. 21 MR. : I mean because they can't 22 miss the number if they're actually counting 23 numbers both at 4:00 - or all not just both. 24 At 4:00, at 10:00, and at midnight, all of the 25 count slips are wrong. EFTA00110860

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 1 MR. : Yeah but then that's what 2 those (Indiscernible *02:08:32) to plus one. 3 It's like they know they got someone, but then 4 it's like -. Like maybe they was told -. 5 MR. : But they're still using 6 the 73 plus one. It should be 72 plus one if 7 they're doing that. 8 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 9 MR. : Unless it was 73 minus 10 one. Then they could do it. But 73 plus one 11 seems to indicate they're using the number 12 that's provided -- 13 MR. : On the El. 14 MR. : -- and saying we got one 15 more down there. 16 MR. : Yeah. I don't know what was 17 going on with this. That's baffling. 18 MR. : All right. To your 19 knowledge, if they're not doing the count 20 though that's all on the SHU? The people that 21 are in there right now? Nothing to do with 22 lieutenants. 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. There's no way for 25 like anyone else other than the people in the EFTA00110861

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 SHU -. Or let me ask it a different way. Is 2 there any way for anyone other than the SHU to 3 know that they're not doing the counts? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : No? Okay. Anything that 6 you didn't initial, just again to say what it 7 is we showed you. 8 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:09:41) 9 MR. : Is this one you or me? 10 MR. : That's (Indiscernible 11 *02:09:48) 12 MR. : So what does this pertain all 13 to - and 14 MR. : Well it's everybody know. 15 Because everybody that's in the SHU. Right? 16 We've got to talk to them. Hey, did you 17 conduct these counts. Or these you know? 18 Because this just brought to light the fact 19 that it doesn't appear that the counts were 20 ever being conducted. So we've got to - that's 21 why we've got to talk to the people that we 22 want to talk to first. People like yourself 23 that were lieutenants on duty. Hey, do you 24 know anything about this? Did you - do you 25 know? EFTA00110862

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 MR. : I mean they wasn't counting. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I know. 3 But I mean just letting you know like, oh yeah, 4 first we want to know about the cellmate. Hey, 5 did you know anything about this? Did you - it 6 looks like -. From the way that this memo 7 reads, we assumed that either you or told 8 hey, he's WAB. Make sure he gets a 9 cellmate. Because that's one of the reasons 10 why we want to talk -. 11 MR. : Based on that memo? 12 MR. : Yeah. because like the 13 fact that He's saying, I knew. I knew he 14 was going WAB. And I told him. 15 MR. : Mm-hm. 16 MR. : Hey, make sure he gets a 17 cellmate. So the assumption that we were going 18 off of is that either you and/or 19 MR. : Mm-hm. 20 MR. : -- spoke to ana 21 said he's going WAB. Make sure he gets a 22 cellmate. 23 MR. : Mm. 24 MR. : But it sounds like what 25 you're saying is you don't -. You didn't even EFTA00110863

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 know, and you never had that conversation. 2 MR. : With and everything. 3 No. I don't even know - I never knew the dude 4 until that thing came out. You know what I 5 mean. He would have been notified. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : But then again, I mean, we do 8 get notified. But usually R&D calls us up. 9 Hey, those two guys ain't coming back. 10 MR. : And is it your belief 11 though by that -? Would it be -? All right. 12 If you said you dint' speak to him. So 13 probably he was notified directly from control? 14 Or R&D? 15 MR. : I would say probably R&D. 16 MR. : So R&D wouldn't call 17 control. And control wouldn't call him? R&D 18 would call directly to the SHU? 19 MR. : That's how we used to do it. 20 MR. : Okay. That's how it 21 would always be? So when you were in the SHU - 22 23 MR. : They call up -. 24 MR. : R&D would call you 25 directly? EFTA00110864

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : But again that's evening 2 watch. Again that's on evening watch. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : That guy's not coming back. 5 MR. : But at 1:50 that's early. 6 And that's when it notified. All right. So if 7 he doesn't have WAB listed on his name on the 8 court list that morning. And that's what 9 people have told us. So we're going on the 10 assumption that - and this is an assumption. 11 That he was - somebody was contacted in the SHU 12 saying hey, it looks like he's not coming back. 13 He did write possibly. But that's the first 14 that we're seeing WAB. 15 MR. : Mm-hm. 16 MR. : So the thought is that 17 someone contacted . We haven't - we've 18 got to talk to him. But like and say, hey, 19 doesn't look like he's coming back. You know 20 we're just notifying you now. 21 MR. : Mm-hm. 22 MR. : And again we were told 23 typically the way it works - and it sounds like 24 you're correcting us - R&D typically calls 25 control. Control calls ops. Ops calls SHU. EFTA00110865

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 1 Is that not correct? 2 MR. : What. When an inmate doesn't 3 come back? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : No? It doesn't work that 7 way? So R&D you're saying typically just would 8 go straight to SHU? 9 MR. : That's a heads up. That's a 10 courtesy. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : Hey, this guy's not coming 13 back. Control knows. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : Control knows. They could 16 call control too. But usually they call in you 17 know why would you call me? 18 MR. : I don't know. 19 MR. : You know? You in SHU. 20 MR. : That's just what we were 21 told. 22 MR. : Hey, this guy's not coming 23 back. 24 MR. : And then again, we're 25 only as good as who the people we talk to. EFTA00110866

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hm. 2 MR. : Whatever information we 3 get is like people like yourself trying to like 4 -. Hey, I know it's probably like yourself it 5 sounds like. At least in the beginning of this 6 thing, you seemed pretty nervous to talk to us 7 because we're really just trying to 8 MR. : No-no. The thing about it 9 The thing is. I know this. This is a high- 10 profile case, looking to point fingers. 11 MR. : Right-right-right-right. 12 MR. : Blame someone. Who dropped 13 the ball? Who did this and that? 14 MR. : Totally get it. 15 MR. : I mean two years later, now 16 it's still like okay, let's go down and see. 17 MR. : And the reason why and 18 I'm sure you saw on the papers what happened 19 recently. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Well that now allows us 22 to try to come back and try to figure out. All 23 right. Now we can do 24 MR. : Yeah. But you're going to go 25 after a whole shift. You know. EFTA00110867

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 MR. : It's not necessarily go 2 after the whole shift. But we've got to figure 3 out what went wrong at the MCC. And what needs 4 to be fixed. Do you know what I'm saying? 5 MR. : I mean -. 6 MR. : But I get -. Trust me -. 7 MR. : Just to deal - they have 8 suicides man. Like they do. 9 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. Totally. 10 MR. : He just happened to be a 11 high-profile one. 12 MR. : Right. And because it's 13 so high-profile, and the fact that there were - 14 15 MR. : The other things with the -- 16 yeah-yeah-yeah. 17 MR. : All these other things 18 are going on now. It looks like there was some 19 false you know slips that were created. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : They weren't doing 22 counts. You know we're getting these signs 23 saying that -- 24 MR. : Yeah but that stuff is -- 25 MR. : -- hey, you're supposed EFTA00110868

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1- 1 to check on him every 2 MR. not the normal though. 3 MR. : Right-right-right-right. 4 MR. : That's not the normal. 5 Definitely. 6 MR. : Yeah. So yeah. And 7 you're right. It's because it's a high-profile 8 9 MR. : I was there for ten years. I 10 used to do that stuff and all that. That's not 11 normal. 12 MR. : What's not normal? 13 MR. : Missed counts and all this 14 and -. Yeah. 15 MR. : And so you're saying that 16 this seems to be abnormal? 17 MR. : It's definitely abnormal. 18 MR. : When you were in the SHU, 19 did you ever - were you ever - did you ever 20 experience people not doing counts? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : People always did counts 23 when you were there? 24 MR. : Yeah. Yeah but here. 25 MR. : And that's -. EFTA00110869

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : You know and that's what 3 people - that's what the conspiracy theorists 4 come in and all that kind of stuff. Like wow, 5 this is one day? And that's where we've got to 6 -. All right. Well let's figure out what 7 actually happened. Is this abnormal or is it 8 normal? You're saying that this seems to be a 9 very abnormal day. 10 MR. : I'm talking about that's why 11 the counts and the slips and the rounds and the 12 falsifying stuff like that. But everything 13 else, I mean, this place is a busy place. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : You know? They lose - 16 inmates go out WAB all the time. New inmates 17 come in. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : So this is a revolving door. 20 MR. : All right. I know we're 21 taking a lot longer than we thought. Let me 22 just go through a lot of these things now. 23 Just back to the round sheet where -. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : What is the purpose of a EFTA00110870

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 1 supervisor actually signing this round sheet? 2 MR. : Making sure the officer is 3 following and doing their rounds how they're 4 supposed to be. 5 MR. : And we don't really need 6 to look at it. Just. All right. So it's not 7 to verify that they were done. It's to verify 8 that the sheets are being kept up? 9 MR. : So if I go up there and I see 10 the times. You all made a round after 40 11 minutes. What happened here? 12 MR. : So you ask them about 13 that. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : But on this date you 16 can't - you don't remember going and speaking 17 to them? 18 MR. : I said I could have went. 19 don't recall. 20 MR. : Okay. And again just 21 going forward, know that these are just simply 22 questions to see what we can find out about 23 that day. And as well as you know the point 24 being you saying that this is such an abnormal 25 day. And it was such a big event that's been EFTA00110871

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 in the news now for two years. 2 MR. : Mm-hm. 3 MR. : Just try and really place 4 yourself. What was your role on that day? 5 MR. : Yeah. Like I said I just 6 know I worked. And that was it. 7 MR. : All right. And as far as 8 you know, were rounds being conducted in the 9 SHU at that time? 10 MR. : Yeah. It's day watch. 11 You've got to make rounds. 12 MR. : On day watch you've got 13 to? 14 MR. : There's no way you can avoid 15 a round on day watch. 16 MR. : What about for - and I'm 17 not talking about just your shift - I'm saying 18 the SHU in general. Are you aware that rounds 19 weren't being conducted on evening watch or 20 morning watch? 21 MR. : Weren't? 22 MR. : Yeah. Were not. 23 MR. : Evening watch you've got to 24 make rounds too. I worked SHU for years. 25 MR. : Yeah-yeah. EFTA00110872

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 MR. : You have to. You've got to 2 go. Yeah . 3 MR. : So when you were there 4 they were being conducted? 5 MR. : Yeah. That's why I'm saying. 6 The whole mess of the count thing. I'm like I 7 don't know. That's -. 8 MR. : Any of those people that 9 we discussed that were on day watch and you 10 know anybody working in the SHU on August 9th 11 and August 10th. Do you have any recollection 12 of speaking with any of those people about 13 morning watch or -? I mean not morning watch. 14 About speaking with about rounds or counts. 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : No. And now being that 17 you were an ops - the ops lieutenant. It 18 sounds like your quarterly post. Would that be 19 something that you would visit with them and 20 just say hey guys make sure you're doing your 21 rounds or anything like that? Would that be a 22 duty or responsibility of an ops lieutenant? 23 MR. : Yeah. But not - it's not 24 really my responsibility. It's the SHU 25 lieutenant. EFTA00110873

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 MR. : Yeah-yeah. Did you have 2 any conversations with the SHU lieutenant? At 3 the time? 4 MR. : Yeah. I talked to the SHU 5 lieutenant. Yeah. 6 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 7 MR. : Oh no you said it was 8 Right? 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Do you remember talking 12 to him at all about Epstein or 13 MR. : I ain't seen him since that 14 day. 15 MR. : Prior -? No. What I'm 16 asking about is up until August 10th. 17 MR. : Mm-hm. 18 MR. : Do you remember ever 19 conversing with about make sure you're 20 going these rounds and that Epstein is being 21 you know looked at or he's got a cellmate or 22 anything like that? 23 MR. : Man, I don't recall that. 24 MR. : No? 25 MR. : Yeah. But we all you know. EFTA00110874

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 It's hey, you got the email. 2 MR. : Right. The email saying 3 he needs a cellmate. 4 MR. : Yeah-yeah. And all the 5 lieutenants know. They say oh no, such-and- 6 such we got the email. He was off of watch. 7 You know? 8 MR. : Do you think it's 9 acceptable for any lieutenant to say that they 10 didn't know that Epstein needed a cellmate? 11 MR. : Some people say they didn't 12 know the cellmate left. 13 MR. : No. The - if they're 14 saying that Let's talk about just the 15 people on that day. Let's talk about like for 16 instance somebody that maybe wasn't normally a 17 lieutenant. Can you - 18 MR. : Mm-hm. 19 MR. : All right. So she's in - 20 you said basically she's in training. She's 21 like an acting lieutenant. She's the person -. 22 MR. : I don't think she was acting 23 that day either though. I mean -. 24 MR. : Well I just mean that she 25 was activities' lieutenant. EFTA00110875

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 2 MR. : Sorry. She was the 3 activities' lieutenant and she was either 4 training or she's typically an SOS at the time 5 though. Should have she known by Epstein being 6 on the hotlist and Epstein you know coming off 7 suicide watch. Should she have known that he 8 was required to have a cellmate? Just by -? 9 MR. : Uh-uh. No. 10 MR. : No? What about 11 Should he have known? 12 MR. : I mean that's only if you're 13 aware though. If I'm not aware, the guy left. 14 MR. : I thought you said if 15 you're - first of all, I thought you said that 16 17 MR. : Well, no. 18 MR. : Everybody knows that in 19 the SHU you're supposed to have a cellmate 20 unless you're a certain classification. 21 MR. : Yeah. But sometimes it be an 22 odd number and they can't have one. 23 MR. : But then the second thing 24 would be he's on the hotlist. Everybody knows 25 if you're on the hotlist you're supposed to EFTA00110876

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 have a cellmate. Right? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : And then the third thing 4 would be that there's an actual email that was 5 sent out and that said he's supposed to have a 6 cellmate. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : So that's where -. With 9 that all in mind -. And I'm not -- 10 MR. : About the notifications -. 11 MR. : -- pointing to one person 12 out in particular. What I'm just asking is 13 these people that were working. So you're not 14 like throwing somebody under the bus. 15 MR. : Oh well. 16 MR. : I'm just asking like as 17 far as these people. Should have known 18 that there should have been -? And I'm not 19 saying that he knew. These people may very 20 well have not have known that I'm 21 just asking like -. 22 MR. : Yeah but I'm thinking. 23 MR. : In general with their 24 positions. 25 MR. : In general. Well EFTA00110877

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 probably never got the email. 2 MR. : Like you're saying you 3 knew. So yes. He knew. Should have 4 known? 5 MR. : I think all lieutenants 6 should know. 7 MR. : What about -? 8 MR. : But then again, we all - if 9 you're not aware to the inmate's leaving, 10 there's no reason to follow-up. 11 MR. : And that's why I started 12 after you. So at this point you said at least 13 by 8:00, people should know -. 14 MR. : That the guy's not coming 15 back or something. 16 MR. : He's not coming back. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : So that's where I'm going 19 off of -. Alright, there's three lieutenants 20 from that point. After you leave, there's 21 three lieutenants. Right? There's 22 MR. : Mm-hm. 23 MR. -: 24 MR. : Mm-hm. 25 MR. : And then the next EFTA00110878

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 morning, . Should - who 2 replaced you - should she have known that he 3 needed a cellmate? 4 MR. : I could see her not knowing. 5 MR. : And is that because she 6 wasn't a lieutenant? 7 MR. : Not a lieutenant. 8 MR. : Okay. What about 9 10 MR. He's not a lieutenant. 11 MR. : So should have he known? 12 MR. : Yeah. Or knew. Like I said. 13 we all knew. 14 MR. : You all knew. 15 MR. : Because we got the email. 16 MR. : And then what about 17 ? Not only the email though. It 18 sounds like there was at least three checks. 19 One: he's in the SHU. Should have a cellmate. 20 Two: he came off of suicide watch. Should have 21 a cellmate. Three: an email was sent out to 22 all the lieutenants. Should have a cellmate. 23 So is there any -? 24 MR. : Yeah, but two and three 25 happens all the time though. Like the guy EFTA00110879

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 comes off suicide watch. You put him in SHU 2 with a cellmate. And then again, that's not 3 forever. 4 MR. : Yeah-yeah. But in this 5 case, you know, July 30th to August 9th or 6 10th. 7 MR. : But is it a set -? I don't 8 think -. That's up to psychology. Because we 9 have guys that - suicide watch. Same thing. 10 Once they leave, they didn't commit suicide and 11 it's nothing. 12 MR. : So if you get this email 13 then on July 30th saying make sure he's got a 14 cellmate. 15 MR. : There's no time on it. 16 MR. : In your mind, is that -? 17 Well two weeks from now? He doesn't need one 18 anymore. 19 MR. : There's no set time. It's 20 just immediately this guy's coming off. A guy 21 maybe got kicked to the unit. 22 MR. : Okay. So in his case -. 23 All right. How should it have been -? What 24 kind of notification should have been made 25 then? EFTA00110880

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 MR. : This is a tough one. But if 2 a guy goes to court and he leaves, you know and 3 you're doing your daily operations. There's so 4 much going on. Epstein ain't the - I know he's 5 high-profile out to the outside. 6 MR. : But I mean he's still on 7 the hotlist. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So he's on the hotlist 10 still. So doesn't that indicate he needs 11 cellmate? If he's still on the hotlist. 12 MR. : Yeah. But he had one. 13 Right? 14 MR. : Right. And that's why 15 I'm saying. By - we're knocking you and we're 16 knocking out of this thing because you're 17 saying 8:00. So let's now look at 8:00 on. 18 Let's say - even for this instance let's even 19 say and they didn't know. Now 20 let's look at Certainly by 21 midnight you should have known. Right? 22 MR. : Yeah. But not a lieutenant 23 though. 24 MR. : No? 25 MR. : Like if the information isn't EFTA00110881

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 told to me -. 2 MR. : But if they're coming in 3 You said that they needed to do a around. 4 Right? Don't these - for this case 5 needed to do a round in the SHU. 6 Correct? 7 MR. : Mm-hm. 8 MR. : Check on all the inmates. 9 MR. : Check inmates, feeding, or 10 officers - making sure they doing the rounds or 11 got to go to SHU. 12 MR. -: Was she 13 required to check on all the inmates and do a 14 round? 15 MR. : When she was probably doing a 16 round. Yeah. 17 MR. : All right. So as far as 18 her. By that point, now we've only got You 19 know we're now -. You know let's say that 20 she's the one that corrected you know the count 21 slip. She caught that. She goes. She visited 22 -. She's supposed to go to the SHU. She's 23 supposed to actually visit all the tiers and do 24 a round? 25 MR. : I mean our policy is really EFTA00110882

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 to say you've got to do a round in the SHU. 2 You know. So you in SHU, you in SHU. I don't 3 know what did she do. 4 MR. : And that's where I was 5 getting to before. Is doing a round in the SHU 6 for a lieutenant - does that mean just walking 7 into the SHU and walking out? Or does that 8 entail actually doing something when you're in 9 there? 10 MR. : I don't think -. There's no 11 guidance on that. 12 MR. : So we've had other people 13 tell us that when you - a lieutenant is 14 actually required to walk the tiers and conduct 15 a round. Not to list it on the round sheet, 16 but like it were - like the people who list 17 those rounds on the rounds sheet. Is that 18 you're understanding of what you were supposed 19 to do? 20 MR. : I mean yeah. 21 MR. : So is that what she 22 should have done? She should have walked the 23 tiers and checked on the inmates? 24 MR. : Yeah. I mean -. 25 MR. : By policy I'm saying. EFTA00110883

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 MR. : By policy you've got to make 2 a round. 3 MR. : And that round is 4 classified as like a round like the COs who are 5 in the SHU do a round? 6 MR. : I've got to double check on 7 that. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : To tell you the truth. 10 MR. : And that's what's unsure? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : You're unclear? Okay. 13 And that's where I'm still trying. Because 14 we've also had less people - but some people 15 have also said no, a round for a lieutenant and 16 a round for a CO is different. A round for a 17 lieutenant is visiting the SHU and checking in 18 with the officers. We've had more people say 19 no-no-no-no-no. You need to go into the SHU. 20 You need to check in with the officers, but you 21 also need to walk the tier. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : And I'm trying to get 24 that like -. 25 MR. : It depends on the lieutenant. EFTA00110884

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 MR. : And then their 2 interpretation? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : But there's no -? 5 MR. : Like I said that's why I 6 really don't - I'll have to check on that part. 7 MR. : Okay. And what policy 8 would that be in? Where it would spell that 9 out? 10 MR. : That would be in inmate 11 discipline which is SHU. And it also would 12 probably be in psychology. 13 MR. : So it would be psychology 14 for if the lieutenant needs to do it? 15 MR. : I know it's about 30 rounds 16 and everything. 17 MR. : But it would also be like 18 19 MR. : But for lieutenants -. 20 MR. : It would also be like a 21 SHU type of -? 22 MR. : Yeah. But I'm thinking it's 23 more You got the polices? 24 MR. : Well I got the SHU 25 policies. I don't have the psychology. EFTA00110885

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 2 3 4 MR. MR. going to look. MR. Isn't it in there? : I don't know. I was : Yeah. Let me see. It might 5 be. Psychology is definitely the 30-minute 6 7 8 rounds. I know. MR. : Again these aren't "I gotcha." These are just genuine questions. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : But psychology you think 11 might have it with like lieutenants -. 12 MR. : Well they definitely with the 13 30 minutes. The -. 14 MR. : Yeah. I mean the SHU 15 policy clearly states that rounds need to be 16 conducted. I just haven't seen anything that 17 said lieutenants need to do it. And that's 18 where - I mean you can look through them if you 19 want. 20 MR. : Nah. 21 MR. : If you can -. 22 MR. : I think it's in there. It 23 may not be in this, but it's definitely in 24 there. 25 MR. : Speaking of lieutenants, EFTA00110886

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 we don't need to make you look in this. We'll 2 look it up. 3 MR. : This is post orders. 4 MR. : We'll dig into that. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : But you think it's 7 probably in the SHU? 8 MR. : Yeah. It's a round, but to 9 say specific go 10, check on and all that. I 10 don't know if it says all that. 11 MR. : All right. It just says 12 you need to conduct a round. And then 13 different people interpret it different way. 14 MR. : Yeah. Yep. 15 MR. : All right. You said -. 16 MR. : But then again, if she don't 17 get the information, I can see it being missed. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : Because if no one tells me 20 that the guy left -. 21 MR. : But if she says that i 22 know left, I know Epstein is by himself. 23 But I didn't know he needed a cellmate. 24 MR. : Mm-hm. 25 MR. : Does that make sense to EFTA00110887

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 you at all? 2 MR. : I mean. Unless she didn't 3 read the email or she's not -. I don't know 4 how it is. Maybe she wasn't aware. 5 MR. : But I mean that fact that 6 - again - those three things we talked about. 7 I understand you say like odd number or you 8 know that kind of stuff. But the fact that 9 there's an email that went out, there's the 10 hotlist that has his name on it, and the fact 11 that he's in the SHU and he's not one of those. 12 So one of those three, she should have at least 13 known, right, that Epstein was required to have 14 a cellmate? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : So her saying I didn't 17 know. Is that to you like, of course you knew. 18 You've been around for a long time. Whereas -. 19 MR. : I mean I'm thinking she needs 20 - no one told her. 21 MR. : No one verbalized it to 22 her. 23 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 24 MR. : But do you think that 25 that's an appropriate excuse for a lieutenant? EFTA00110888

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 Saying that I didn't know if those three things 2 are in place? 3 MR. : I'm not sure. 4 MR. : You're not sure. And I 5 know you don't want to like - you know - but 6 like - I'm just trying to reconcile it too. 7 Like alright, if you're saying you didn't know, 8 how is that possible if everybody else -. 9 Everybody else I talked to seems to know. 10 MR. : Then again, I told you the 11 hotlist and all that. That's things that's 12 like -. Like the email, even though it's out, 13 that's - there's no timeframe on that. 14 MR. : Yeah. But the fact that 15 they're still on the hotlist, I would think 16 that that would continue because the email went 17 out -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- but then you're also 20 placed on the hotlist. And if you're on the 21 hotlist it basically corresponds with that 22 email. Correct? 23 MR. : Yeah. But the hotlist is for 24 initial. So you get locked up, that's when I'm 25 checking. I know I'm checking to see if this EFTA00110889

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 inmate is on the hotlist. Initially. 2 MR. : So only when the hotlist 3 changes? You're not looking at the people that 4 are still on the hotlist? 5 MR. : Well I'm saying like if 6 there's ten on there. and a guy gets locked up 7 - Williams from 11 North. He comes and he just 8 got a psych alert and we make sure he get a 9 bunkie. He got a bunkie. He goes a month with 10 a bunkie. Day 31 we're not still - you know. 11 MR. : Yeah-yeah. So in this 12 case you think even July 30th to August 9th 13 when the guy leaves that could be enough time 14 to say he doesn't need one anymore? 15 MR. : I mean I'm not psychology. 16 MR. : All right. And you don't 17 know of psychology making any more -? No one 18 told you -? 19 MR. : No one specified the time 20 frame - 21 MR. : I need to -. 22 MR. : -- about how long he was 23 going to be -. 24 MR. : Did anyone after July 25 30th after receiving that email, did anyone EFTA00110890

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 talk to you about Epstein needing a cellmate? 2 MR. : Not that I recall. 3 MR. : No? Who should have? If 4 he in fact did continue to need a cellmate, who 5 should have told you? 6 MR. : I say psychology. 7 MR. : Psychology? Not the 8 captain or another lieutenant? It was 9 psychology? 10 MR. : Psychology. They deal with 11 that. 12 MR. : And who in psychology? 13 MR. : Any one of them. 14 MR. : Anybody? 15 MR. : Anyone. Hey, it's an email. 16 MR. : So just you think that 17 they should have continued like once a week or 18 something sending out an email? Or how often? 19 MR. : I mean 20 MR. : Because that wasn't even 21 two weeks after that email went out. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : So like how soon should 24 they? 25 MR. : I don't think a weekly or you EFTA00110891

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 know. 2 MR. : That was maybe ten days. 3 MR. : Because I don't know. I 4 don't know. I know they (Indiscernible 5 *02:30:39) to us so I don't know their policy. 6 Because I know they supposed to follow-up. And 7 then there's steps to it. I don't know. I'm 8 not familiar with that policy. 9 MR. : Okay. But you think it 10 was psychology's - they're the ones that should 11 have made sure like there's people -- 12 MR. : Well they -. 13 MR. : -- in the SHU and the -. 14 MR. : They sent out the email to 15 us. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : They notified us. 18 MR. : But you're saying like 19 that could be like a day or two. It doesn't 20 mean that two weeks from there it matters. 21 MR. : Yeah, I mean. That happens 22 two weeks after that? Yeah. The guy goes to 23 court. He leaves. There's a time and 24 opportunity. And I don't think it's nobody's 25 fault. EFTA00110892

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 MR. : You think it's just -? 2 MR. : I just don't think it's 3 nobody's fault. 4 MR. : Okay. And do you recall 5 this sign - or any sign - hanging up saying 6 that he needed a cellmate, or he needed to be 7 30-minute rounds on him? 8 MR. : I definitely don't recall 9 that Signs about you saying him needed rounds 10 or -? 11 MR. : That's the rounds. 12 MR. : No the one that - 13 MR. : And then you don't -. 14 MR. : Another one is. 15 MR. : Another one saying that 16 he was required to have a cellmate. 17 MR. : The sign? 18 MR. : So we've been told that 19 there was a sign saying that Epstein was 20 required to have a cellmate in the SHU on the 21 desk area. 22 MR. : Could have been. I don't 23 know. I don't be in the desk area. 24 MR. : So you don't - you're not 25 aware? But you know that there was a hotlist EFTA00110893

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 at least. 2 MR. : No. The hotlist is there. 3 It's been there since I was working there. The 4 hotlist is back there. And that's about it. 5 MR. : And do you know if 6 Epstein was on the hotlist? 7 MR. : No. I'm not sure. 8 MR. : You're not sure. 9 MR. : Do you have the hotlist? 10 MR. : Not with us. No. I don't 11 think. Do we have it? No. You said you 12 didn't even as the ops lieutenant you don't 13 recall specific conversations with anybody that 14 worked in the SHU on August 9th or 10th? No? 15 MR. : Specific conversation, no. 16 It was a regular day. 17 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I mean 18 up - leading from basically July 30th to August 19 9th. 20 MR. : Oh. About the -? 21 MR. : About the need for 22 checking on Epstein or a cellmate or anything 23 to do with Epstein? 24 MR. : No. All I know is when he 25 tried it the first time, he went to suicide EFTA00110894