LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 MR. : Hmm. I mean, if I had to. 2 MR. : But you didn't notice 3 that -- 4 MR. : But not normally. 5 MR. : -- in the desk area? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : All right. Where would 8 the hot list be located? 9 MR. : So, behind the desks, like, a 10 wall we have, that we keep it up there. 11 MR. : All right. And they're 12 supposed to be checking that, and making sure 13 those people are, one) checked on, and two) 14 have cellmates? Is that the purpose? 15 MR. : The hot list is just any - 16 it's pretty much any inmate that comes from the 17 housing unit. They come from the housing unit. 18 This guy psych alert, hey, make sure this guy 19 gets a bunkie. That's the initial check. 20 That's what the hot list is for. 21 MR. : And are they supposed to 22 check that list every day, to make those same - 23 24 MR. : I mean, you don't - no, you 25 get up there, it's, hey, on the suicide watch, EFTA00111089

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 is he on the hot list? So, it's not common to 2 check it every day. No. 3 MR. : All right. So, it's not 4 common to check it every day? 5 MR. : Every day, no. Unless it's 6 updated. 7 MR. : Only when it's updated, 8 you check it. 9 MR. : Yeah, if the guy is still on 10 it. 11 MR. : But wouldn't - again, the 12 fact that the MCC is a jail, not a prison - 13 wouldn't it be pretty regular that people are 14 being moved in and out? 15 MR. : Not on the hot list. 16 MR. : No, but the people that 17 they're bunked with. If they're required to 18 have a cellmate -- 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : -- wouldn't it be pretty 21 regular that they would have to - their 22 cellmates might be leaving? Because if it's a 23 jail, not a prison. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : So, that's what I'm EFTA00111090

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 saying. So, how are they always ensuring that 2 those people that are required to have 3 cellmates have cellmates? 4 MR. : That's when you say, hey, I 5 got a single cell up there. 6 MR. : And at what point is that 7 reviewed? 8 MR. : The single cells? 9 MR. : Yeah. Is that supposed 10 to be a daily occurrence? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : And is that - what time 13 is that? The 8:00 time that you're talking 14 about? 15 MR. : No. Usually, that's in the 16 morning. So, like, if I come in, hey, you 17 know, I'm going to - who's in the single cell? 18 You know? 19 MR. : Well, what about -. 20 MR. : At night, it's just not -. 21 At night, it's -. 22 MR. : Even when people are left 23 during the day, and then come back from court? 24 Some people come back, some people don't. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111091

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 MR. : Wouldn't that be another 2 time that they do it, or they don't do it at 3 that time? 4 MR. : I mean, I mean, like I said, 5 after that cut off time, that's when you start 6 saying, okay, we've got a single cell, of such 7 and such. Then again, remember, MCC get 8 inmates throughout the night. 9 MR. : They do? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Placed in the SHU? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Okay. And you didn't 14 work that night. Do you know of any people 15 that were placed in the SHU that night, on 16 August 9th? 17 MR. : No. Not according to this, 18 no. 19 MR. : And did you conduct any 20 counts or rounds in the SHU on August 9th? 21 MR. : I can't recall. 22 MR. : And what is the purpose? 23 Why do COs conduct counts and rounds in the 24 SHU? 25 MR. : To make sure they're alive. EFTA00111092

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : Is it also to make sure 2 everyone is there? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And are cells and counts 5 - are counts and rounds documented? 6 MR. Yup. 7 MR. : And how 8 MR. : Probably. 9 MR. : -- how are they 10 documented? 11 MR. : 30-minute log in in TruScope. 12 MR. : So, 30-minute log for 13 rounds? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And what is the TruScope? 16 MR. : Rounds. 17 MR. : That's rounds, as well? 18 MR. : You put rounds in there, too, 19 but all the counts. 20 MR. : So, counts -- 21 MR. : Mainly counts, yeah. 22 MR. : -- so, are counts also 23 are there, like, little slips that are filled 24 out? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111093

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : Who fills them out? 2 MR. : All the officers. 3 MR. : And what do they do with 4 them? 5 MR. : Give it to Internal. 6 MR. : And does Internal come to 7 the SHU, or does the SHU go to Internal? 8 MR. : It depends. 9 Not before this incident. 10 MR. -: MR. : Or it does 11 it both ways? 12 MR. : Both ways. Just get it to 13 control. 14 MR. : Okay. Do all COs who 15 work in the SHU know how to properly conduct 16 and report counts and rounds? 17 MR. : I'm not sure. 18 MR. : Should they know how to 19 conduct counts and rounds? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : And how should they know? 22 MR. : Training. 23 MR. : And do you think everyone 24 there got enough training to know how to do a 25 count and a round? EFTA00111094

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : Did you ever hear of 3 people, like, filling out count slips, or round 4 sheets? Either before, or at the very start of 5 their shift, for their entire shift, or at the 6 end of the shift for their entire shift? 7 MR. : Not before this incident. 8 MR. : Did you hear about that 9 after this incident? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : What did you hear about 12 that? 13 MR. : That they didn't count. 14 mean, it was filling out slips. It wasn't 15 counted. Wasn't making rounds. 16 MR. : And who was it that you 17 heard that wasn't conducting counts and rounds? 18 MR. : Thomas and Noel. 19 MR. : Anybody else in there? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : Did you hear anything 22 about counts and rounds not being conducted 23 prior to midnight on August 10th? So, any time 24 on August 9th, did you hear about any of those 25 counts and rounds not being conducted? EFTA00111095

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : On the watch then? 2 MR. : Any time on August 9th. 3 So, this date. 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : Even after the fact, you 6 never heard about, like, the 10:00 p.m. count, 7 or the 4:00 p.m. count, the counts not being 8 conducted? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : You haven't heard that? 11 MR. : No. I don't know. Not that 12 I know of. Some, what, counts on these days? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : No. You have the 4:00 count. 15 You have the 10:00 count. Yeah, the midnight 16 count. Yeah. 17 MR. : Right. So, what I'm 18 asking, did you -- 19 MR. : Have I heard that -- 20 MR. : -- did you hear 21 MR. -- 4:00 and 10:00 -- 22 MR. : -- that (Indiscernible 23 *01:18:33) -- 24 MR. : -- wasn't done? 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00111096

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Now, do lieutenants sign 3 the counts or the rounds? 4 MR. : The rounds. Not the counts. 5 MR. : So, what is the 6 lieutenants' responsibility for signing the 7 round sheets? 8 MR. : Making sure they're in 9 compliance with the policy. 10 MR. : All right. And do they 11 have to - is there any way for them to verify 12 if, like, the rounds were actually done? 13 MR. Hmm. No. Unless you're 14 doing a - checking a video. 15 MR. : You just - is what you do 16 is just to make sure that the - it's actually 17 filled out? 18 MR. : Correctly. 19 MR. : Correctly filled out? All 20 right. I'm going to - I apologize for this, 21 it's gotten a little longer - so, I'm going to 22 show you. What is this that I'm showing you? 23 MR. : It's a round sheet. 24 MR. : All right. And what is 25 the round sheet from? EFTA00111097

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. : The 9th. 2 MR. : The 9th. Did you have 3 anything - well, as the activities' lieutenant 4 - would of you had anything to do with signing 5 off on any of these? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Which ones would of you 8 signed off on? 9 MR. : Day watch. 10 MR. : Okay. And are you on 11 that? Did you sign any of that? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Where is your signature? 14 MR. : On the day shift. 15 MR. : So, that's your actual 16 signature? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Is that for the SHU? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Who else signed that? 21 MR. : The officer. 22 MR. : Which officer? 23 MR. : I'm not sure. 24 MR. : You can't tell by looking 25 at that? EFTA00111098

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : All right. And around 3 what time would of you signed that? Do you 4 know? 5 MR. : Some time on my shift. 6 MR. : All right. So, does that 7 indicate that you would have, then, conducted a 8 round in the SHU? 9 MR. : I'm not sure. 10 MR. : Would of you signed that 11 in the SHU? 12 MR. : Honestly, I'm not sure. 13 MR. : How else would of you 14 gotten it? 15 MR. : I'm not sure. 16 MR. : So, is the SHU sheet ever 17 sent outside of the SHU for the lieutenant to 18 sign? 19 MR. : I'm not sure. I can't recs.: 20 on this day. 21 MR. : But what I'm asking is, 22 like, have you ever signed one of these round 23 sheets outside of the SHU? 24 MR. : I'm not sure. 25 MR. : Or is it typically that EFTA00111099

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 the lieutenant would sign the sheet in the SHU? 2 Because aren't they maintained in the SHU? 3 MR. : Typically, that's what would 4 happen. 5 MR. : So, typically, you would 6 have signed this in the SHU. Correct? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : And would of you signed 9 this after the last one was filled out? I'm 10 assuming they wouldn't fill one out after you 11 signed it, would they? 12 13 14 2:07. Wouldn't that typically mean that you 15 would have been there at least 2:00? 16 MR. : I'm not sure. 17 MR. : But by looking at this 18 document, does that indicate to you, that if 19 you signed it, you would have signed it? Do you 20 ever sign -. Are these continued to be filled 21 out after the - sorry - after the lieutenant 22 signs it? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : So, even for day watch 25 right here? MR. : I'm not sure. MR. : So, this one says 2:05, EFTA00111100

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : So, you can sign it at 3 any point during this, and then, they continue 4 to fill it out? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : All right. And that's 7 what I'm asking. How does that work? I don't 8 know. So, I'm asking. 9 MR. : I mean, it's eight hours. 10 MR. : So, at any point, from 11 8:00 a.m. until basically 2:07 p.m., you could 12 have signed that? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Okay. And these are 15 genuine questions. They're not I trick you. 16 I'm just asking -- 17 MR. : No. I understand. But it 18 does seem like that, is what I'm saying. 19 MR. : And then, I'm not -- 20 MR. : That's what I'm saying, like 21 22 MR. : I promise you, I'm 23 just asking, like, this isn't, like, an "I 24 gotcha" moment. There's no -- 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00111101

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I gotcha moments in 114 2 this. This is just asking for your, like, your 3 recollection on this. 4 MR. : Yeah, I understand that. But 5 that's why I said, I'm not sure about that. I 6 don't know when I signed it. 7 MR. : All right. And that's 8 so, what I'm asking you, like, is this 9 something, typically, that you would have done? 10 And again, it's not an I gotcha. 11 MR. : Yeah. But again -- 12 MR. : It's just, it's a genuine 13 14 MR. : I'm not sure. 15 MR. : -- but so, you don't know 16 if -. But so, most of the time, I mean, these 17 are maintained in the SHU, and this is - again 18 - this is our learning experience, by talking 19 to people like you, lieutenants -- 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : -- that were there. 22 It's, again, not an "I gotcha." It's trying to 23 figure out, how does this process work? 24 MR. : But also, I'm not trying to 25 incriminate myself. EFTA00111102

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 MR. : I got -. 2 MR. : Or nothing. That's what I'm 3 saying. I'm not sure. 4 MR. : But what I'm asking, I 5 guess, is just - and I don't even know what 6 there would be to incriminate you with - but, 7 like, what I'm asking is, like, how does this 8 process work? If you give this person a round 9 sheet, are these round sheets signed in the 10 SHU? 11 MR. : Typically. 12 MR. : Typically. All right. 13 And are you aware of them ever not being signed 14 in the SHU? 15 MR. : I'm not sure. Not that 16 know of, no. 17 MR. : All right. So, at least 18 more likely than not, you signed this document 19 in the SHU, at some point, between 8:00 and 20 2:00 p.m.? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, that means you 23 probably did a round in there? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : All right. And if it was EFTA00111103

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 between 8:00 and 2:00 p.m., both Reyes and 2 Epstein were not in their cell at that time, 3 then, correct? 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : I mean, this isn't, like 6 - again - an I gotcha. I'm just trying to 7 figure out, like, where you fall in this whole 8 thing. 9 MR. : So, that's what I'm trying to 10 figure out. Where do I fall in this whole 11 thing? 12 MR. : Because this is your 13 idea. That's what we're We're talking to 14 you just specifically about, all right, Reyes 15 was gone, at some point, he goes WAB. We 16 don't know -. 17 MR. : So, you're trying to say 18 who's to blame for it, or -? 19 MR. : Well, it's also just trying 20 to figure out what happened. We've got to talk 21 to -. 22 MR. : He left. And that's what 23 happened. 24 MR. : Right. And you, when you 25 were there, there was no conversations that you EFTA00111104

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 had with anyone? 2 MR. : No conspiracy. No. It's not 3 4 MR. : No, no, no, and we're not 5 asking -- 6 MR. -- nothing like that. 7 MR. : -- for a conspiracy. 8 It's just, we need to know who, what 9 conversations happened, where, where did the 10 MR. : I didn't know nothing about 11 it until after I saw it in the news. 12 MR. : And this is also me 13 showing you this now is more letting you know, 14 like, okay, that looks like you probably were 15 there. Does that help spark recollection? 16 MR. : I had no conversation with 17 neither one of them that day. Not that I 18 recall. 19 MR. : None of them that day? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : All right. Can you tell, 22 does this look like an RCS to you? 23 MR. : I don't know who -- 24 MR. : Why don't you have a look 25 at this? EFTA00111105

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 MR. -- whose signature that is. 2 MR. : All right. So, on day 3 watch, there was a , . As well as . Does that look 5 like any of those people to you? 6 MR. Hmm. I'm not sure. 7 MR. : Okay. All right. So, 8 you do not recall. And as we go, do you mind 9 just initialing or whatever? Okay. You got 10 those, too, if you don't mind initialing this, 11 and this, and this. Now, although it is 12 voluntary, I guess, we do have to just make 13 sure we know, it also has to be the answers are 14 truthful, you're under oath. So, that also 15 so, lack of candor can also be constituted by 16 not providing full information or, like, hiding 17 information. 18 MR. : No. If I remember, it'll - 19 and I don't hide nothing - but if I remember, 20 then I will say it. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : But when you come with these 23 24 MR. : So, it's just -- 25 MR. : -- saying it looks like, hey, EFTA00111106

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 by the way -- 2 MR. : -- and again -- 3 MR. yeah, and if I'm, like -. 4 MR. our purpose, you would 5 have been interviewed a lot earlier, if there 6 was, like, you know -- 7 MR. : Yeah, but still -- 8 MR. : -- we're -. 9 MR. -- I know, I know being that 10 day, I know it was a big profile case. Hey, 11 let's get such and such, they fill this, and 12 then -- 13 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 14 MR. and I'm, like, come on. 15 MR. : And we just need to know, 16 like, as, you know, we've got make sure that, 17 like, hey, what you do remember, you can tell 18 us. Again, it's voluntary, but, like -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : -- all right. So, these, 21 I'm going to give you these count slips from 22 August 9th up until midnight of August 10th. 23 And is it your understanding that ZA on the 24 count slip, that stands for the SHU? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111107

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 MR. : All right. Can you just 2 kind of look through those? I'm going to move 3 this aside for you, so the papers don't get 4 kind of mixed up. Actually, I'm just going to 5 give them back to you, 6 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 7 *01:26:40). 8 MR. : (Indiscernible 9 *01:26:40). 10 MR. : So, I look for what? 11 MR. : Oh, that one. 12 MR. : What am I initialing for? To 13 do what? 14 MR. : So, when we initial these 15 things, it's just to say what we showed you. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : It's not to say you're 18 certifying anything, or that you received 19 anything. It's any document we place in you, 20 this is what we do for everybody. We ask them 21 to initial and date this -- 22 MR. : That I've seen this. 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : -- no, that today you've EFTA00111108

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/. 1 seen this, not that you've seen it before 2 today. It's just that, today, while we're 3 talking to you, this is in fact the document 4 that we were talking about. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : It's not certifying its 7 accuracy. It's not saying you saw it before 8 today. It's simply to say that's the document 9 we're discussing right now. 10 MR. : And I'm looking for this 11 MR. : Thank you, sir. 12 MR. -- or -? 13 MR. : So, look at the ZAs, 14 starting. So, you're - what is this one that I 15 gave you? Is that the -. 16 MR. : So, this is the 9th at 5:02. 17 MR. : So, 5:00 a.m. count. 18 MR. : a.m., right? 19 MR. : So, okay, so, I gave you 20 the 5:00 a.m. count on the 9th. Can you just 21 take a look at the numbers? You can look at 22 the - is that - what's this first page called? 23 Is that the El? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : All right. So, look at EFTA00111109

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 the El. And then, look at the count slip for 2 ZA. So, when you're looking at El, just make 3 note of what is the number that says on the El, 4 and then, go back to probably the last page, 5 maybe the second to last page, for each, and 6 look at the ZA number, to make sure that it 7 matches with what the El shows. And I just 8 want you to do that for the one 9 MR. : You said the El and the what? 10 MR. : The El and the count slip 11 for ZA. 12 MR. : The count slips are in the 13 back. 14 MR. : should be either the last 15 or the second to last page. And I just -- 16 MR. : Where it's 5:00 in the 17 morning? 18 MR. : -- that's 5:00 in the 19 morning on the 9th. So, what do those numbers 20 show? 21 MR. : In ZA? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : So, 77. 24 MR. : Does it say both of them, 25 77? EFTA00111110

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. : On the El, yeah. 2 MR. : All right. Cool. Now, 3 you can just initial and date that, and move it 4 aside. Again, these aren't I gotcha moments. 5 These just help us explain some stuff. All 6 right. So, this El, well, can you tell me what 7 it says for the ZA on this one? And this is, 8 what, the 5:00 p.m. count? What is this? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 11 MR. : 4:00 p.m., I mean. 12 MR. : It's 4:00 count. But yeah. 13 So, that ZA is 75. 14 MR. : 75. And the last one was 15 77? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : And what does that say? 18 MR. : 75. 19 MR. : All right. 75. Cool. 20 Can you just initial that and put that on the 21 side? And you'll understand the question after 22 you look at these. And again, it's not an I 23 gotcha. It's to help us explain something. 24 All right. 25 MR. : What y'all trying to explain, EFTA00111111

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 though? 2 MR. : The count changes, and 3 I'm going to ask you how you can - if there's a 4 way for you to be able to figure out how this 5 count changed. All right. Can you look at the 6 El on here, and compare it to the count slip 7 back there? What is the -? 8 MR. : And it's the 10:00 count, 9 right? 10 MR. : 10:00 p.m. count on 11 August 9th. 12 MR. : Yeah. 73. 13 MR. : 73? On both? And is there 14 a count - does the count slip say something 15 weird on that one? 16 MR. : No, I'm just looking at the 17 seven. 18 MR. : Does it say, like, 19 plus one on there? 20 MR. : Oh, yeah. It does. 21 MR. : Have you ever seen a plus 22 one on any before, or could you understand a 23 reason why someone will put plus one? 24 MR. : Plus one. No. I don't know 25 about a plus one. EFTA00111112

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 MR. : All right. Now, this is 2 the one that I really want you to look at. 3 Look at this El. This is now August 10th at 4 midnight. Check out what it says for ZA on the 5 El. What number does that say? 6 MR. : 72. 7 MR. : All right. And check out 8 the count slip. 9 MR. : What does the count slip say? 10 MR. : It says 73. 11 MR. : So, 73, but the top one, 12 that was clear, it says 72. Right? 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : And I'll give you one 15 more, just so it's not a magic trick, look at 16 this page first, for the August 10th, and I 17 have the rest of them, too, if you want to see 18 them, but 3:00 a.m. on August 10th, and then, 19 the last page where it says the count slip. 20 What does it say on the El on the next one? 21 MR. : It says 72. 22 MR. : And on the El. And then, 23 what does the count slip say? 24 MR. : 72. 25 MR. : So, in looking at all EFTA00111113

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 this, does that tell you - as a lieutenant and 2 someone who worked in the SHU - does that tell 3 you something? 4 MR. : Yeah, but the thing is, this 5 one had up, though. 6 MR. : That's exactly -- 7 MR. : That way and clear the count. 8 MR. : -- that's exactly right. 9 So, we're trying to figure out where did this 10 count change down the 72? And does it indicate 11 to you that these counts were not actually 12 conducted? And this is not -- 13 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:33:00). 14 MR. : -- and this is not -- 15 MR. : It's the 9:00 count. 16 MR. : -- we have no reason to 17 believe you were involved in this. So, I want 18 to make sure you're -. We're actually just 19 looking for your help here. As someone who 20 worked in the SHU, and as someone that is 21 familiar with these kinds of documents, can you 22 help us put this puzzle together? How - so we 23 have reason to believe that they called in at 24 midnight 73 -- 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00111114

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 MR. : -- and the control 2 lieutenant, who was working that night, figured 3 out there's actually only 72 people in there. 4 They've been calling in 73, but there's only 72 5 people in the SHU. Is there any way, from 6 looking - and that's from this point forward, 7 they're now start -- 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : -- calling in 72 - is 10 there any way, from looking at these, you're 11 able to determine, with your knowledge and 12 experience, where that changed? I would say 13 that it changed from the 10:00 count. This was 14 printed at 9:33. So, it has 73. And then, at 15 9:33, attorney conference ain't open. So, 16 Epstein would have probably been up by then. 17 He would have went back to the SHU. 18 MR. : So, he would have been 19 listed on -. Epstein would have been back at 20 least by 8:00 p.m., right? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, that would have 23 MR. : So, he should have been on 24 this count. 25 MR. : -- he should have been on EFTA00111115

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 this one. 2 MR. : So, he threw it, yeah. 3 MR. : And can you see where on 4 the - let's talk about, I guess, what's the one 5 before? The 5:00 p.m.? The 4:00 p.m.? 6 MR. : Yeah, he would have been at 7 attorney conference. Yeah. 8 MR. : And it would have showed 9 him at attorney conference on one of these, 10 correct? On the El? 11 MR. : Yeah. At 3:00, at attorney 12 conference. Well, from SHU. 13 MR. : And then, does it show 14 that he's already in SHU in this one? Is there 15 any way an attorney conference at the 10:00 16 p.m. count? 17 MR. : No. But see, what I was 18 telling you before about the numbers, see how I 19 had 76? 20 MR. : Yup. 21 MR. : And this is at the 4:00 22 count. And then, it went down to 73? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : So, you don't know until 25 after the count, about the whole cellmate EFTA00111116

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 coming back. 2 MR. : Right. But then, the 3 weird part about it is going from 73 to 72, 4 with no movement. 5 MR. : So, we don't know, okay, 6 so, they're taking off, you know, if they're 7 going from - what does it say? 76? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Down to 73. That's three 10 people, and one person vanishes. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : When it gets to 72. Are 13 you able to tell where that person vanished 14 from, or is it impossible because, possibly, 15 all of these counts were not conducted, and 16 that's - I know you weren't here for any of 17 these counts, apparently, so it's, again, I'm 18 just asking for your guidance - is that 19 correct? You weren't even working when any of 20 these counts were conducted? 21 MR. : Yeah, well, if I was - you 22 said 4:00, right? 23 MR. : Well, you possibly worked 24 up until 4:00. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111117

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 MR. : But -. 2 MR. : So, I wasn't here. I wasn't 3 there for the count. 4 MR. : Right. So again -- 5 MR. : 76. 6 MR. : I want to reassure you 7 this isn't an I gotcha moment. We're just 8 trying to help -- 9 MR. : No, no, but you know it feels 10 like it. 11 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah -- 12 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:36:12). 13 MR. : -- and I get that because 14 you've got special agents talking to you -- 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : -- it's just all about 17 trying to piece the puzzle together. So, we 18 need help with people like yourself, to be able 19 to say, what the hell happened? You know what I 20 mean? 21 MR. : Yeah. Well, there's also 22 three here. From (Indiscernible *01:36:28). 23 mean, I think I'm -- 24 MR. : And we've had other -- 25 MR. -- and we hadn't keyed them EFTA00111118

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 out, that's what it is. 2 MR. : And you just 3 MR. : Oh, they hadn't keyed them 4 out. But then, they would have keyed them out. 5 R&D leaves at 10:00. They leave at 10:00. 6 Now, they could have left somebody on, and then 7 came out. Because like I said, it's no 8 movement. The only way you get it is you key 9 out. Like, key a guy unless somebody went to 10 the hospital or something. 11 MR. : Yeah, and if there is 12 nothing that happened, but no inmates were 13 moved after 10:00 p.m. If we know that, does 14 this indicate that they were just going off on 15 numbers and just falsifying their counts, or 16 are you able to tell, by looking at these at 17 all -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- if these counts are 20 legit or not? Are you able to kind of, like, 21 give us any insight into that? 22 MR. : I mean, the one with the plus 23 one is a question because I don't see why they 24 would -. Then again, you've got R&D with a 25 plus one, too. I don't know. I don't know EFTA00111119

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 what's going on. They got R&D, (Indiscernible 2 *01:37:57) cell plus one. 3 MR. : And by looking at that 4 person in R&D, are you able to tell who that 5 is? 6 MR. : Hmm-mm. 7 MR. : Not by looking at that 8 name? 9 MR. : Not by the name. I mean, 10 there's no outcome. Don't have the out count. 11 MR. : Don't have the out count? 12 Is that what you're saying? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : And what time is that 15 for? 16 MR. : Well, I can't - you don't 17 have the out count. 18 MR. : No, what time are you 19 looking at? 20 MR. : This one is for the 10:00. 21 MR. : So, the 10:00 p.m. 22 doesn't even have an out count on it? 23 MR. : I mean, it don't add up 24 because - yeah, something is not right 25 because R&D is not on here. Unless they moved. EFTA00111120

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 I mean, some time, they say a ghost count, but 2 3 MR. : And what does a ghost 4 count mean? 5 MR. : -- so, like, the guys in 6 medical, they say, hey, I didn't have time to 7 key him in, but I'm verifying that he's down 8 here with me, and put him on my count 9 MR. : So, R&D. Does that say 10 95 plus one? 11 MR. : It could say 95 or it could 12 say 9-South. 13 MR. : Oh, 9-South plus one. 14 MR. : What is 9-South? 15 MR. : The SHU. 16 MR. : Now, this name, to me, 17 looks like (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:27). 18 Do you know any -- 19 MR. . Yeah. 20 MR. -- so, is that somebody's 21 name? 22 MR. : Yeah. That's an officer. 23 MR. : So, if someone was placed 24 in R&D, and someone was told to watch that 25 person there, would the person - at 10:00 p.m. EFTA00111121

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 - would they be able to see like a dry cell, 2 someone was still there at night? 3 MR. : Well, yeah, because you could 4 watch them down here, yeah. 5 MR. : And is that like a small 6 (Indiscernible *01:39:52)? Is it kind of like 7 you'd be able to - that person would know if 8 somebody was there or not? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Verify it. 11 MR. : Because someone could have 12 came in before the count, too. A U.S. Marshal 13 could have brung one in, and they said, hey, 14 watch this guy. He's going to 9-South. That's 15 why the plus one is throwing me off. 16 MR. : Have you ever seen plus 17 one on anything before? 18 MR. : No. I heard people calling 19 in with a plus one. But then, again, I say 20 that's like a ghost. A ghost count. 21 MR. : All right. Does this 22 MR. : But it mess up the base 23 count, though. 24 MR. : -- but seeing, especially 25 looking at the 72 -- EFTA00111122

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 MR. : Yeah, I don't know how that 2 happened. 3 MR. : -- and does this at all 4 tell you anything about any of these counts? 5 MR. : Hmm. 6 MR. : Like, we've had other 7 people, you know, in higher positions saying, 8 to me, it tells me that the counts weren't 9 done. Does that tell you that? 10 MR. : Yeah, but at 10:00? Pfft, I 11 mean, yeah. I don't know, man. Yeah. I mean, 12 I couldn't tell you, man. 13 MR. : All right. So -. 14 MR. : I couldn't tell you. I don't 15 know. I don't understand that. 16 MR. : Okay. So, is it just a 17 baffling type of deal? Because it's baffling -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- to us, and then, we're 20 just hoping that people can kind of help us 21 especially people that were there -. 22 MR. : I don't know. See, that's 23 why I don't understand that. I don't see how 24 they get 73 at the 10:00 count, and then they 25 lose one after the 10:00 count. EFTA00111123

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 MR. : And that's the same 2 thing. We're trying to figure that out. 3 MR. : Unless it wasn't keyed in the 4 system. 5 MR. : At what point - are you 6 able to tell - at what point it should have 7 been keyed in the system by that? 8 MR. : Well, if a guy came into R&D, 9 and they keyed him in SHU, and then put him 10 back in R&D. 11 MR. : So if he like went to SHU 12 13 MR. : He never went to SHU. 14 MR. : -- and then back? 15 MR. : They keyed him in the SHU. 16 They put him on this count. But he didn't make 17 it. So, the medical and stuff taking the guy 18 out. So, they say, hey, leave him down there, 19 and count him in R&D. I could see that 20 happening. 21 MR. : So if, like, he's in 22 medical, and they can't -- 23 MR. : Well, so like, medical comes 24 down there, and they checking him out, and he 25 don't make it up time in SHU, for the time, EFTA00111124

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 seeing they could say, hey, well, I'm not 2 putting him on our count, put him down there. 3 MR. : So, that would be like 4 the ghost count you're talking about? 5 MR. : No, that's a real count. 6 MR. : But if he's -. 7 MR. : That's just saying someone 8 put him in there but took him out. 9 MR. : All right. But if he's 10 not physically there, he's not actually allowed 11 to be on the count. Is he? 12 MR. : Exactly. No. That's why - 13 and this is, I don't - you see, this says RA? 14 That's R&D. 15 MR. : And does it say anybody's 16 in R&D over on this one? 17 MR. : Well, there's no out count, 18 and that's what I'm saying. There's no out 19 count with that one. 20 MR. : So, this RA -- 21 MR. : RA and R&D are separate. 22 MR. : -- is one. 23 MR. : You need an out count for 24 this. You don't need an out count for that. 25 This is a unit. EFTA00111125

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 MR. : But as far as this goes, 2 we're looking at the midnight and the 10:00 3 p.m., right? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : So, at midnight, there is 6 RA1, and the midnight, but at the 10:00 p.m., 7 you know -- 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : -- two hours earlier, the 10 zero. Correct? 11 MR. : So I'm thinking this dude 12 went back to RA. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : That's how they lost someone. 15 MR. : But there is a count slip? 16 MR. : For RA or R&D? 17 MR. : What's he talking about? 18 MR. : So, RA -- 19 MR. : That's the thing. That is 20 was -- 21 MR. : -- isn't the count slip 22 for - (Indiscernible *01:43:21). 23 MR. : At the top. 24 MR. : That's R&D. 25 MR. : Well, they could have messed EFTA00111126

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 up. They should have had the RA count slip for 2 that one. 3 MR. : What's the difference between 4 RA and R&D? 5 MR. : RA is a real unit. So, when 6 the guys come back from court, they're in RA 7 status. R&D is when they keyed out. 8 MR. : To go to leave? 9 MR. : To go to court. But if they 10 come back, they came back in their unit. If 11 they don't come back, they release them from 12 R&D. But RA is technically a unit. 13 MR. : And it doesn't count as a - 14 it doesn't show up as R&D? 15 MR. : No. (Indiscernible 16 *01:43:57). 17 MR. : Where would that one slip 18 - that says R&D in there - where would that 19 show up here? 20 MR. : That would be right here. 21 But they don't have nobody in R&D. 22 MR. : So, there's - and so, is 23 that even weirder, the fact that, at the 10:00 24 p.m. count, there's a count slip for R&D, and 25 there's nobody for R&D on this? EFTA00111127

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 MR. : That's why I think they put 2 him, and they keyed him in SHU. They keyed him 3 in SHU, the inmate, and then put him down in 4 R&D. And then, changed it after the count. Or 5 they could have changed it right after this 6 count cleared, and set it up for the next 7 count, say the inmates, the inmate is in - this 8 is the 10:00? 9 MR. : Yeah, that one is the 10 10:00 p.m. 11 MR. : Yeah. And you have the 12 midnight one. 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : That's the midnight one 15 right there. 16 MR. : That's the 3:00. 17 MR. : Oh. 18 MR. : See, (Indiscernible 19 *01:44:44) right here. 20 MR. : Oh, I think I took it. 21 MR. : So, whoever was in SHU, they 22 put him, and they keyed him into RA and R&D. 23 MR. : This is the midnight. 24 MR. : Yeah. So that's what 25 happened. EFTA00111128

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 MR. : Does R&D have like a dry cell 2 or a dry room? 3 MR. : No, they got cells. You see, 4 they got RA right here. Yeah, that's what 5 happened. I think the guy came from SHU and 6 went to RA. That's why they lost one. 7 MR. : And can you think of why 8 a person would go from SHU to RA, at that late 9 at night? 10 MR. : Body scan. Probably pulled 11 something. And they kept him down there, put 12 him through the x-ray. 13 MR. : And is there any way - by 14 looking at these - you can see how Is there 15 - you said the 4:00 p.m.? 16 MR. : Yeah. That's the 4:00 p.m. 17 MR. : Is the person in R&D at 18 4:00 p.m.? Are you able to tell by this? 19 MR. : Let me see. You know the 20 inmate that was down there or no? 21 MR. : I think Fernandez. Is 22 that right? 23 MR. : Was he a west side dude? 24 MR. : Do you anything about 25 him? EFTA00111129

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 MR. : No, I don't. 2 MR. : Yeah, but that's what it 3 looks like. It looks like they took a guy to 4 SHU, and put him in R&D, but instead of keying 5 him in R&D, they keyed him RA. Yeah. That's 6 what it looks like. 7 MR. : So, at the 4:00 p.m., was 8 he anything to do with Fernandez on that, or 9 anything to do with somebody in -? 10 MR. : Well, the 4:00 p.m. is - no, 11 because no one is out from R&D. Let me see. 12 You've got one from 11-South. You've got no 13 one else from R&D. 14 MR. : But it's also said that 15 at the 10:00 p.m., right? Or I don't know which 16 one I'm looking at right there, but -. 17 MR. : No, you have one out here. 18 Yeah. But it looks like this inmate, from 19 10:00, they did the count at 10:00. Plus one. 20 Yeah. Plus one. Yeah. It seemed like they 21 got screwed up by something. Either moving 22 this guy to R&D, or whatever. I mean, the 23 count slip shouldn't have accepted anyway, 24 though. So, in the 9-South, plus one. Like, 25 don't know why that was written, but -- EFTA00111130

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : -- that's what it looked 3 like. The guy came from 9-South, he went in 4 the RA. He stayed there throughout the night. 5 Whoever the inmate was -- 6 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 7 MR. right there. 8 MR. : And we have reason to 9 believe that that is the case. That there is a 10 guy that was in, you know, he did stay there at 11 the night, and he had somebody on him, and 12 that's one of the reasons why we want to talk 13 to somebody that was in R&D to be able to 14 verify hey, was that guy really there? 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : And by looking at that, 17 would that be that individual we just talked 18 about? 19 MR. -: 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Who did the count slip? 22 MR. : It's based on the count slip 23 (Indiscernible *01:48:18). 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Um all right. Does this EFTA00111131

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 tell you anything else? Just before we move 2 on. 3 MR. : I mean just -. I don't know. 4 Yeah. I don't know. I don't understand it. 5 That's the only thing I think they probably 6 took him down for that then. 7 MR. : Is there - which, from 8 looking at these, what basic like counts seem 9 bad to you? Does this 10:00 p.m. one seem like 10 a bad count to you? The way that it - what you 11 just looked at? When there's nothing on the El 12 and there's a count slip? 13 MR. : Uh. 14 MR. : If you were working that 15 night and you got a count like that, is that a 16 good count or bad count? 17 MR. : I would have said bad count. 18 MR. : And who - can you tell by 19 looking at this - who was the one who took this 20 count? 21 MR. : Uh 22 MR. -: ? And was there any 23 lieutenants involved with this? 24 MR. : I mean there could have been. 25 I'm not sure. EFTA00111132

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 MR. : But by looking at it like 2 I think like probably the midnight one there 3 was an actual ops lieutenant. Are you able to 4 tell that by looking at the - I think the ops 5 lieutenant is the one who caught it at 6 midnight? Are you able to tell that that -? 7 MR. : Oh this one here? 8 MR. : Yeah. Are you able to - 9 by looking at these, are you able to tell when 10 the lieutenant actually took the count? 11 MR. : It was - says she took the 12 count - took the count at midnight. 13 MR. : All right. And it shows 14 on it? I'm looking at it upside down 15 so I can't even see. 16 MR. : That's what it says yeah. 17 MR. : And on this one does it 18 show any lieutenant was involved? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : So it would just been 21 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : All right. 24 MR. : What about the 4:00 p.m.? 25 Does it show the lieutenant's name on the 4:00 EFTA00111133

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 p.m.? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Do you have any idea what 4 first name is? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : But this does seem like a 7 bad El. 8 MR. : El seems good. But um -. 9 MR. : Even though that no one 10 is listed on R&D? 11 MR. : Yeah that's what's confusing. 12 Like -. 13 MR. : Because then you say 14 there's a count slip for -. 15 MR. : This is at 9:33. 16 MR. : Wasn't that just one that 17 was printed? Oh. Because the numbers are 18 printed on that? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : I see what you're saying. 21 So after 9:33 possibly, something changed? 22 MR. : So that could be two things. 23 Either the Marshals was trying to get one in 24 before the count and they thought they had 25 enough time to process him upstairs. And then EFTA00111134

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 when they call in the count, it's wrong. Like 2 hold on that's not it. Yeah. 3 MR. : And that's what I mean by 4 wouldn't this be incorrect if they get a count 5 slip that's not listed on the El? 6 MR. : Yeah. They got a - which one 7 did they get? R&D? Yeah. Yep. That would be 8 a bad one. 9 MR. : All right. So for this 10 it seems like the 10:00 p.m. on August 9th was 11 a bad El and as far as the midnight, it seems 12 like it's the count slip that's a bad slip. Is 13 that correct? Whatever that's (Indiscernible 14 *01:51:13). I'm sorry, I'm in the -. So it 15 seems like the El is good at midnight, but the 16 count slip is bad at midnight for ZA. And 17 we're primarily asking you this stuff just 18 because we've got to write a report about what 19 we're finding. And we don't want to sound - we 20 don't want to be wrong. You know what I mean? 21 MR. : Yeah. Yeah so, the count 22 slip is wrong on this one. 23 MR. : So midnight count slip is 24 wrong, El seems right. The El at 10:00 p.m. 25 seems wrong, but the count slips seems right. EFTA00111135

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 At least for R&D. I - we have reason to 2 believe the count slip for ZA is also wrong for 3 4 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 5 MR. : -- 10:00 p.m. because -. 6 Well it depends, I guess, like you said, what 7 time the individual was moved to R&D. We've 8 been told that after the you know -. People 9 are all moved prior to this time. So if that 10 person was in R&D, it would have been prior to 11 the 10:00 p.m. count. Does that sound right to 12 you? 13 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 14 mean something could have happened. And you 15 know taken this guy downstairs. 16 MR. : And that's why we need to 17 talk to people. So by looking at this, are you 18 able to like figure out who we can talk to? To 19 see if something happened at 10:00 p.m. to 20 change this count and make this -? 21 MR. : Did you see the log already? 22 MR. : The lieutenant's log? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Do we have it? Yeah. I 25 have it. EFTA00111136

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MR. : Anything with log? 2 MR. : Um so here's the - yeah. 3 So here's the log from the day you were on. 4 That's the August - it says August 10th, but 5 you know it's the August 9th log in there. Are 6 you able to tell by looking at that? And 7 here's the day after. So this is the - you've 8 got the August 9th -- 9 MR. : Okay. So moving him to the 10 dry cell. 11 MR. : -- and the August 10th. 12 MR. : Okay. So he put someone in 13 dry cell. 14 MR. : Dry cell is in the SHU isn't 15 it? 16 MR. : Yeah. If there's space. 17 Okay. So it looks like they didn't key the guy 18 up. He went to dry cell depending on what 19 time. 20 MR. : And are you able to tell 21 by these lieutenant's - I think you've got the 22 actual lieutenant log back there and I would 23 assume that that's when it should be documented 24 when people are moved. Correct? Are you able 25 to tell by looking at that when someone - you EFTA00111137

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 know this person was moved to dry cell? 2 MR. : Eh. 3 MR. : Oh. And also if you've 4 got that, are you able to tell by looking at 5 that when you worked until? No? 6 MR. : No. I wouldn't have done a 7 log that day from activities. 8 MR. : Yeah. I just didn't know 9 if it like mentioned when people - you know ops 10 or activities started or stopped. 11 MR. : No. It doesn't say when he 12 . It just says Inmate Fernandez on dry cell. 13 It doesn't say when he went there. 14 MR. : There's no time associated 15 with the movement on there? 16 MR. : Should have there been? 17 MR. : I mean that's good to put in 18 there yeah. 19 MR. : So you said you wouldn't 20 have been associated with the lieutenant's log. 21 Who does the lieutenant's log? 22 MR. : Ops should take care of it. 23 MR. : Ops would so on your 24 shift it would have been 25 MR. : Yeah. But Fernandez is EFTA00111138

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lr_ 1 already on dry cell on day watch it says. 2 MR. : And that's where we get 3 confused. And that's why we have reason to 4 believe - because it seems like Fernandez was 5 put on day watch. 6 MR. : At 3:15. Yeah. 7 MR. : Does it say 3:15 he was 8 placed on there? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So that indicates to us 11 the 4:00 p.m. and that 10:00 p.m. count were 12 also both bad. He wasn't in the SHU. Does 13 that make sense to you? 14 MR. : I think he was Yeah. He 15 wasn't in the SHU, but he was he was still 16 keyed in SHU. 17 MR. : He was still keyed in the 18 SHU, but he wasn't there? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Right. So for the Els, 21 they would still show it. The only way the 22 people in control would know it is if SHU 23 actually did their count and said we only got 24 72 people in here not 73. Right? 25 MR. : I mean.... EFTA00111139

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 MR. : Because people working in 2 the SHU. They know hey, we only count bodies 3 that are present. 4 MR. : Oh hold on. This is the 9th. 5 Okay. So he went to -. Transfer to special 6 housing - dry cell at 4:00. 7 MR. : At 4:00 it says? 8 MR. : On the 9th. This is done on 9 the night before. Okay. Okay. 10 MR. : Can you -? And again I 11 promise you, not a "gotcha." You're being a 12 very extremely help. Can you just note on 13 there where you're seeing these different 14 things? If you can tell at what time he was 15 moved? 16 MR. : Well this just looks like the 17 log is the same. 18 MR. : We also have reason to 19 believe that people manipulated the log after 20 the fact. 21 MR. : Yeah. That's what I'm 22 saying. Some things are (Indiscernible 23 *01:57:13). 24 MR. : Do you know anything 25 about that? While I mentioned that? EFTA00111140

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 MR. : No. I see SHU corrections; 2 Fernandez; dry cell; RA; Saturday. Yeah. So I 3 mean that's pretty much whatever. I think that 4 the dial was still keyed in the SHU. 5 MR. : But as far as -- 6 MR. : In the building physically. 7 MR. : -- are you able to -? 8 Did you say that you saw something in there 9 that said either 3:15 or then you said 4:00 10 p.m. after that? Where are you seeing that? 11 MR. : No. It looks like -- 12 MR. : The 3:00. 13 MR. : -- they're saying the guy was 14 transferred back to SHU. Hold on. But this 15 also says that I was - I relieved as 16 day watch ops. 17 MR. : It says you relieved 18 as day watch ops? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Instead of 21 mean 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Is that wrong? 24 MR. : Mm. 25 MR. : Or was it that EFTA00111141

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 potentially was late, and you relieved 2 her? 3 MR. : I don't know. I'm not sure. 4 MR. : Would that be like a 5 possibility? Like can they do that? Even if 6 you're activities' lieutenant, if she wants to 7 leave and you're there and - who is the 8 ops lieutenant - wasn't? Can they say that you 9 relieved her even though you were activities' 10 lieutenant? 11 MR. : Mm. 12 MR. : Or is she not supposed to 13 write that? Or not supposed to be in there? 14 MR. : So who wrote that? 15 MR. Uh I don't know. It could be 16 - that's the thing. It could be a - it's like 17 a from the day's prior. So if you don't catch 18 it, you just going to keep it the same. So 19 it's like - because I'm ops - I know I was ops. 20 That's what I'm saying. So I must have came in 21 on doing overtime that day. So normally I 22 would relieve her. So she probably left it 23 that way anyway thinking okay it's the same. 24 You're not changing that. You know? 25 *01:59:23 EFTA00111142

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 MR. : Oh you mean the day 2 before you were ops is what you're saying? 3 MR. : Yeah. I think I was ops that 4 whole quarter though. I think so yeah. 5 MR. : So you were - that whole 6 quarter you were ops? Why were you -? 7 MR. : Overtime. 8 MR. : So overtime was a 9 different duty? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : So you were the ops 12 lieutenant up until that day? You were 13 activities' lieutenant that day though? 14 MR. : Yeah. I think so. 15 MR. : So being that you were 16 ops, were you also potentially acting as like 17 the ops lieutenant? 18 MR. : Mm. 19 MR. : Like as in like since 20 that were your normal duties would have you 21 also took - taken that on? Like hey, I know 22 I'm activities, but I'll do the ops role? And 23 this is, again, just to try to help recollect - 24 25 MR. : I don't know. EFTA00111143

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 MR. : -- what you were doing. 2 MR. : I think I was ops that 3 quarter though. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Yeah. I was ops. 6 MR. : Again we don't have your 7 records. There was no reason for us to be 8 grabbing your records or anything like that. 9 So everything we're asking you about is simply 10 to help us fill in the blanks. 11 MR. : So based on what you said, 12 you think it's - the log is from previous date. 13 It was just a spite edit that wasn't caught on 14 to. 15 MR. : Yeah. The dry cell stuff. I 16 don't know about all that. But that's what it 17 looks like. It looked like the guy was in 18 there and they didn't key him out even though 19 he was in R&D. 20 MR. : So let's say if I'm in SHU 21 and I wanted to move somebody. Or you wanted 22 to move somebody in the SHU. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : You're going to - do you key 25 it in, or do you call in to somebody and tell EFTA00111144

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 them to key it in? Who keys it in? 2 MR. : You can do it if you want to. 3 You can do it by yourself. 4 MR. : And let's say you move it. 5 Is someone supposed to be notified hey, listen 6 this person is moved? Or you - the SHU CO's 7 can move the inmates by themselves? 8 MR. : Someone from a different 9 unit? 10 MR. : Yeah. Like control or R&D? 11 MR. : No you tell - you can call 12 control. 13 MR. : Is it policy that control 14 must be notified? 15 MR. : I don't know if it's policy, 16 but I mean, they taking a count it's good to 17 know. Hey, this is what's going on - got to 18 move this guy down to dry cell. 19 MR. : And let's say - sorry. Go 20 ahead. 21 MR. : I was going to say I 22 guess - are you asking like who is responsible 23 for doing the keying? Yeah who -? 24 MR. : It could be CNA. 25 MR. : What's CNA? EFTA00111145

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 MR. : Control number two. 2 MR. : Okay. But control would 3 be responsible for him. It's not ops or SHU 4 that would have been responsible for 5 (Indiscernible *02:01:28). It's control that 6 was -- 7 MR. : I mean SHU could -- 8 MR. : -- responsible for -? 9 MR. make that change though. 10 MR. : SHU could? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : It's not an ops 13 responsibility or activities'? 14 MR. : I mean if they say hey, 15 need this guy in dry cell. You know. Okay. 16 You notify them. You know hey, move him. 17 MR. : Okay. I guess though 18 what we're saying is like under the regular 19 practice - I understand that other - some 20 people have the ability to do it. But who 21 should have done it? 22 MR. : Should have moved keyed the 23 inmate from -- 24 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 25 MR. : SHU to R&D? EFTA00111146

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : Uh CNA, control. 3 MR. : Control should have? 4 MR. : Number two. Yeah. 5 MR. : And how should have they 6 been notified that they needed to make that 7 change? Who should have notified them that 8 that change needed to be made? 9 MR. Mm. I mean Sue could have 10 called ahead. This guy is keyed up here. He's 11 keyed down there. 12 MR. : So I guess what I'm 13 saying is like once an inmate is moved, and 14 control needs to be notified. Hey, this guy 15 that was in SHU is now in R&A. Who needs to 16 notify control to make those changes in the 17 system? 18 MR. : The SHU. They just 19 (Indiscernible *02:02:37) down there. 20 MR. : So the SHU. 21 MR. : They'll call control. Yeah. 22 MR. : Okay. So whenever - 23 let's say for instance we believe Fernandez was 24 moved from the SHU to R&A on dry cell. The SHU 25 should have contacted control and said we just EFTA00111147

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 made this movement. He needs to be rekeyed. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : All right. That's the 4 way it works? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And again, these are just 7 questions. We don't know. 8 MR. : It could be that or the 9 lieutenant could do it. Either or. Hey, I'm 10 moving this guy. I'm moving here. 11 MR. : So should have a 12 lieutenant been involved in that? 13 MR. : Not necessarily. 14 MR. : Okay. And that's why 15 we're just trying to figure out what is the 16 standard operating procedure? Like what is 17 typically - what is supposed to happen? 18 MR. : I mean there's no typical. 19 You get it done. Hey, I'm telling you to move 20 him. Or I say I'm moving this guy. The 21 lieutenant told me to move him. And yeah. 22 MR. : I guess but if anybody 23 can do it and no one is told to do it, I guess 24 - I would assume - that it would quite 25 frequently not be done because everyone would EFTA00111148

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 be like "well he could have done it - he should 2 have done it." I'm saying like who is usually 3 supposed to do it? Who is like supposed to 4 take the lead of - make sure that that's done 5 or "we just moved this guy - control you know 6 like key that out." Like how is it supposed to 7 be done? Because otherwise, it's always going 8 to fall apart because then everyone is going to 9 say, "well that person could have done it - 10 that person could have done it." 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : So is there anybody 13 that's supposed to do it? 14 MR. : To notify? 15 MR. : Yeah. To make the 16 notifications so that the numbers can be 17 changed on the El? 18 MR. : Yeah. I would say the SHU 19 staff. 20 MR. : SHU staff. 21 MR. : They kind of say hey, this 22 guy is not up there. check to see where he's 23 at. 24 MR. : All right. 25 MR. : Maybe key him to R&D. EFTA00111149

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 MR. : Sorry I didn't mean -. 2 MR. : No-no. That's exactly what I 3 was thinking or trying to get to. You said the 4 SHU staff could also key it in. If they keyed 5 it in, would this El document get updated? 6 MR. : Well these -. 7 MR. : Or would control have to 8 update it? 9 MR. : Control will update it. 10 MR. : So no matter even if the SHU 11 staff decided if they wanted to update it, 12 control manually has to update this document 13 specifically. 14 MR. : Yeah. Put a number on it. 15 Because this is the last one that was printed. 16 And then you make a change after that it's not 17 going to show. 18 MR. : Okay. This was -. 19 MR. : 9:30. 20 MR. : 9:30. But let's see the 4:00 21 p.m. count. I just want to see what time that 22 was printed. 23 MR. : 3:40. 24 MR. : And according to that, the 25 inmate was supposed to be moved at 3:15? EFTA00111150

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Nah. 2 MR. : The daily log -? 3 MR. : Well you said two 4 different - I was going to back to that. You 5 said - one time you said 3:15 and the other 6 time you said 4:00 p.m. Are you able to tell? 7 MR. : Yeah. It looks like 8 Okay. So let's start with this. This is the 9 9th, right? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : So you got nobody starting 12 the shift on dry cell. So this says 3:15 13 inmate Fernandez placed on dry cell from SHU. 14 MR. : Can you just put a star 15 next to that? All right. So then you believe 16 that that is where things got screwed up? They 17 never keyed him out. 18 MR. : Yeah. Inmate Fernandez 19 placed on dry cell; 75 in SHU; I do believe 20 .... All right. So at 9:00 on August 21 9th Friday he goes in at 3:15 in dry cell. And 22 he stays in there overnight. So the 4:00 23 count, he's still keyed in there though, right? 24 MR. : Well that's what we're 25 trying to figure out. EFTA00111151

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : Because it's not caught 3 until -. So we believe from people that we 4 talked to, it was caught at midnight. And that 5 person who caught it said like this person is 6 on dry cell and then revised the numbers and 7 the count. 8 MR. : Mm-hm. 9 MR. : Now we're trying to 10 determine were the counts ever conducted in the 11 SHU? 12 MR. : Mm. 13 MR. : It doesn't appear to us 14 that they would have been. Because they would 15 have caught that at 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 16 p.m. They would have said this is the number 17 of people we physically have present. 18 MR. : Yeah but I don't see -. 19 MR. : And even at midnight i- 20 still says 73. And it's changed to 72. And to 21 us it suggests - and everyone else that we're 22 talking to - that we haven't shared this 23 information with many people. You're one of a 24 very select few that we're even showing this 25 stuff to. EFTA00111152

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 MR. : Mm-hm. 2 MR. : But the people that we've 3 showed it to before says, hey the fact that 4 they're reporting 73 and the actual count is 5 72, they're basically getting the number from 6 this and just writing that down. They're not 7 actually conducting the counts. Would you 8 agree with that statement? 9 MR. : They could do that. Or they 10 could actually be counting but not counting. 11 Making sure that they're just walking and 12 making sure they're alive. 13 MR. : So doing more of a round 14 than a count? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : And that is also one of 17 the things that we believe happened. Is that 18 at least on one of the instances, they did do a 19 round, but they didn't do an actual count. 20 MR. : Yeah. Because honestly, I 21 don't see it on this end. A 4:00 and a 10:00. 22 MR. : You don't see what? 23 MR. : The missing of 4:00 and 24 10:00. 25 MR. : Yeah. The fact that they EFTA00111153

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 missed both seems very unlikely. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : If they're actually 4 counting. Correct? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And that's why we believe 7 - and it sounds like you agree - they didn't 8 actually do the 4:00, the 10:00, or the 9 midnight count. 10 MR. : No. I mean I'm thinking they 11 did to the 4:00 and the 10:00. 12 MR. : Even though the numbers 13 are wrong? 14 MR. : Yeah. They probably just 15 went off the numbers. 16 MR. : SO you think -- 17 MR. : What -- 18 MR. : -- they conducted the round? 19 MR. : They conducted a round 20 not a count. 21 MR. : Yeah. Or something. 22 MR. : I mean because they can't 23 miss the number if they're actually counting 24 numbers both at 4:00 - or all not just both. 25 At 4:00, at 10:00, and at midnight, all of the EFTA00111154

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 count slips are wrong. 2 MR. : Yeah but then that's what 3 those (Indiscernible *02:08:32) to plus one. 4 It's like they know they got someone, but then 5 it's like Like maybe they was told -. 6 MR. : But they're still using 7 the 73 plus one. It should be 72 plus one if 8 they're doing that. 9 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 10 MR. : Unless it was 73 minus 11 one. Then they could do it. But 73 plus one 12 seems to indicate they're using the number 13 that's provided -- 14 MR. : On the El. 15 MR. : -- and saying we got one 16 more down there. 17 MR. : Yeah. I don't know what was 18 going on with this. That's baffling. 19 MR. : All right. To your 20 knowledge, if they're not doing the count 21 though that's all on the SHU? The people that 22 are in there right now? Nothing to do with 23 lieutenants. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Okay. There's no way for EFTA00111155

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 like anyone else other than the people in the 2 SHU Or let me ask it a different way. Is 3 there any way for anyone other than the SHU to 4 know that they're not doing the counts? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : No? Okay. Anything that 7 you didn't initial, just again to say what it 8 is we showed you. 9 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:09:41) 10 MR. : Is this one you or me? 11 MR. : That's (Indiscernible 12 *02:09:48) 13 MR. : So what does this pertain to 14 - Thomas and Noel? 15 MR. : Well it's everybody know. 16 Because everybody that's in the SHU. Right? 17 We've got to talk to them. Hey, did you 18 conduct these counts. Or these you know? 19 Because this just brought to light the fact 20 that it doesn't appear that the counts were 21 ever being conducted. So we've got to - that's 22 why we've got to talk to the people that we 23 want to talk to first. People like yourself 24 that were lieutenants on duty. Hey, do you 25 know anything about this? Did you - do you EFTA00111156

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 know? 2 MR. : I mean they wasn't counting. 3 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I know. 4 But I mean just letting you know like, oh yeah, 5 first we want to know about the cellmate. Hey, 6 did you know anything about this? Did you - it 7 looks like -. From the way that this memo 8 reads, we assumed that either you or told 9 hey, he's WAB. Make sure he gets a 10 cellmate. Because that's one of the reasons 11 why we want to talk -. 12 MR. : Based on that memo? 13 MR. : Yeah. because like the 14 fact that He's saying, I knew. I knew he 15 was going WAB. And I told him. 16 MR. : Mm-hm. 17 MR. : Hey, make sure he gets a 18 cellmate. So the assumption that we were going 19 off of is that either you and/or 20 MR. : Mm-hm. 21 MR. : -- spoke to ana 22 said he's going WAB. Make sure he gets a 23 cellmate. 24 MR. : Mm. 25 MR. : But it sounds like what EFTA00111157

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 you're saying is you don't -. You didn't even 2 know, and you never had that conversation. 3 MR. : With Reyes and everything. 4 No. I don't even know - I never knew the dude 5 until that thing came out. You know what I 6 mean. He would have been notified. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : But then again, I mean, we do 9 get notified. But usually R&D calls us up. 10 Hey, those two guys ain't coming back. 11 MR. : And is it your belief 12 though by that -? Would it be -? All right. 13 If you said you dint' speak to him. So 14 probably he was notified directly from control? 15 Or R&D? 16 MR. : I would say probably R&D. 17 MR. : So R&D wouldn't call 18 control. And control wouldn't call him? R&D 19 would call directly to the SHU? 20 MR. : That's how we used to do it. 21 MR. : Okay. That's how it 22 would always be? So when you were in the SHU - 23 24 MR. : They call up -. 25 MR. : R&D would call you EFTA00111158

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 directly? 2 MR. : But again that's evening 3 watch. Again that's on evening watch. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : That guy's not coming back. 6 MR. : But at 1:50 that's early. 7 And that's when it notified. All right. So if 8 he doesn't have WAB listed on his name on the 9 court list that morning. And that's what 10 people have told us. So we're going on the 11 assumption that - and this is an assumption. 12 That he was - somebody was contacted in the SHU 13 saying hey, it looks like he's not coming back. 14 He did write possibly. But that's the first 15 that we're seeing WAB. 16 MR. : Mm-hm. 17 MR. : So the thought is that 18 someone contacted We haven't - we've 19 got to talk to him. But like and say, hey, 20 doesn't look like he's coming back. You know 21 we're just notifying you now. 22 MR. : Mm-hm. 23 MR. : And again we were told 24 typically the way it works - and it sounds like 25 you're correcting us - R&D typically calls EFTA00111159

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 1 control. Control calls ops. Ops calls SHU. 2 Is that not correct? 3 MR. : What. When an inmate doesn't 4 come back? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : No? It doesn't work that 8 way? So R&D you're saying typically just would 9 go straight to SHU? 10 MR. : That's a heads up. That's a 11 courtesy. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Hey, this guy's not coming 14 back. Control knows. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : Control knows. They could 17 call control too. But usually they call in you 18 know why would you call me? 19 MR. : I don't know. 20 MR. : You know? You in SHU. 21 MR. : That's just what we were 22 told. 23 MR. : Hey, this guy's not coming 24 back. 25 MR. : And then again, we're EFTA00111160

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 only as good as who the people we talk to. 2 MR. : Mm-hm. 3 MR. : Whatever information we 4 get is like people like yourself trying to like 5 -. Hey, I know it's probably like yourself it 6 sounds like. At least in the beginning of this 7 thing, you seemed pretty nervous to talk to us 8 because we're really just trying to 9 MR. : No-no. The thing about it -. 10 The thing is. I know this. This is a high- 11 profile case, looking to point fingers. 12 MR. : Right-right-right-right. 13 MR. : Blame someone. Who dropped 14 the ball? Who did this and that? 15 MR. : Totally get it. 16 MR. : I mean two years later, now 17 it's still like okay, let's go down and see. 18 MR. : And the reason why and 19 I'm sure you saw on the papers what happened 20 recently. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Well that now allows us 23 to try to come back and try to figure out. All 24 right. Now we can do -. 25 MR. : Yeah. But you're going to go EFTA00111161

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1- 1 after a whole shift. You know. 2 MR. : It's not necessarily go 3 after the whole shift. But we've got to figure 4 out what went wrong at the MCC. And what needs 5 to be fixed. Do you know what I'm saying? 6 MR. : I mean -. 7 MR. : But I get -. Trust me -. 8 MR. : Just to deal - they have 9 suicides man. Like they do. 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. Totally. 11 MR. : He just happened to be a 12 high-profile one. 13 MR. : Right. And because it's 14 so high-profile, and the fact that there were - 15 16 MR. : The other things with the -- 17 yeah-yeah-yeah. 18 MR. : All these other things 19 are going on now. It looks like there was some 20 false you know slips that were created. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : They weren't doing 23 counts. You know we're getting these signs 24 saying that -- 25 MR. : Yeah but that stuff is -- EFTA00111162

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 MR. : -- hey, you're supposed 2 to check on him every -. 3 MR. -- not the normal though. 4 5 6 7 MR. • MR. ■ Definitely. MR. : Right-right-right-right. : That's not the normal. : Yeah. So yeah. And 8 you're right. It's because it's a high-profile 9 10 MR. : I was there for ten years. I 11 used to do that stuff and all that. That's not 12 normal. 13 MR. : What's not normal? 14 MR. : Missed counts and all this 15 and -. Yeah. 16 MR. : And so you're saying that 17 this seems to be abnormal? 18 MR. : It's definitely abnormal. 19 MR. : When you were in the SHU, 20 did you ever - were you ever - did you ever 21 experience people not doing counts? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : People always did counts 24 when you were there? 25 MR. : Yeah. Yeah but here. EFTA00111163

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 MR. : And that's -. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : You know and that's what 4 people - that's what the conspiracy theorists 5 come in and all that kind of stuff. Like wow, 6 this is one day? And that's where we've got to 7 -. All right. Well let's figure out what 8 actually happened. Is this abnormal or is it 9 normal? You're saying that this seems to be a 10 very abnormal day. 11 MR. : I'm talking about that's why 12 the counts and the slips and the rounds and the 13 falsifying stuff like that. But everything 14 else, I mean, this place is a busy place. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : You know? They lose - 17 inmates go out WAB all the time. New inmates 18 come in. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So this is a revolving door. 21 MR. : All right. I know we're 22 taking a lot longer than we thought. Let me 23 just go through a lot of these things now. 24 Just back to the round sheet where -. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111164

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 1 MR. : What is the purpose of a 2 supervisor actually signing this round sheet? 3 MR. : Making sure the officer is 4 filing and doing their rounds how they're 5 supposed to be. 6 MR. : And we don't really need 7 to look at it. Just. All right. So it's not 8 to verify that they were done. It's to verify 9 that the sheets are being kept up? 10 MR. : So if I go up there and I see 11 the times. You all made a round after 40 12 minutes. What happened here? 13 MR. : So you ask them about 14 that. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : But on this date you 17 can't - you don't remember going and speaking 18 to them? 19 MR. : I said I could have went. 20 don't recall. 21 MR. : Okay. And again just 22 going forward, know that these are just simply 23 questions to see what we can find out about 24 that day. And as well as you know the point 25 being you saying that this is such an abnormal EFTA00111165

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 day. And it was such a big event that's been 2 in the news now for two years. 3 MR. : Mm-hm. 4 MR. : Just try and really place 5 yourself. What was your role on that day? 6 MR. : Yeah. Like I said I just 7 know I worked. And that was it. 8 MR. : All right. And as far as 9 you know, were rounds being conducted in the 10 SHU at that time? 11 MR. : Yeah. It's day watch. 12 You've got to make rounds. 13 MR. : On day watch you've got 14 to? 15 MR. : There's no way you can avoid 16 a round on day watch. 17 MR. : What about for - and I'm 18 not talking about just your shift - I'm saying 19 the SHU in general. Are you aware that rounds 20 weren't being conducted on evening watch or 21 morning watch? 22 MR. : Weren't? 23 MR. : Yeah. Were not. 24 MR. : Evening watch you've got to 25 make rounds too. I worked SHU for years. EFTA00111166

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 2 MR. : You have to. You've got to 3 go. Yeah . 4 MR. : So when you were there 5 they were being conducted? 6 MR. : Yeah. That's why I'm saying. 7 The whole mess of the count thing. I'm like I 8 don't know. That's -. 9 MR. : Any of those people that 10 we discussed that were on day watch and you 11 know anybody working in the SHU on August 9th 12 and August 10th. Do you have any recollection 13 of speaking with any of those people about 14 morning watch or -? I mean not morning watch. 15 About speaking with about rounds or counts. 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : No. And now being that 18 you were an ops - the ops lieutenant. It 19 sounds like your quarterly post. Would that be 20 something that you would visit with them and 21 just say hey guys make sure you're doing your 22 rounds or anything like that? Would that be a 23 duty or responsibility of an ops lieutenant? 24 MR. : Yeah. But not - it's not 25 really my responsibility. It's the SHU EFTA00111167

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 lieutenant. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah. Did you have 3 any conversations with the SHU lieutenant? At 4 the time? 5 MR. : Yeah. I talked to the SHU 6 lieutenant. Yeah. 7 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 8 MR. : Oh no you said it was 9 Right? 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Do you remember talking 13 to him at all about Epstein or Reyes? 14 MR. : I ain't seen the fence that 15 day. 16 MR. : Prior -? No. What I'm 17 asking about is up until August 10th. 18 MR. : Mm-hm. 19 MR. : Do you remember ever 20 conversing with about make sure you're 21 going these rounds and that Epstein is being - 22 you know looked at or he's got a cellmate or 23 anything like that? 24 MR. : Man, I don't recall that. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00111168

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 MR. : Yeah. But we all you know. 2 It's hey, you got the email. 3 MR. : Right. The email saying 4 he needs a cellmate. 5 MR. : Yeah-yeah. And all the 6 lieutenants know. They say oh no, such-and- 7 such we got the email. He was off of watch. 8 You know? 9 MR. : Do you think it's 10 acceptable for any lieutenant to say that they 11 didn't know that Epstein needed a cellmate? 12 MR. : Some people say they didn't 13 know the cellmate left. 14 MR. : No. The - if they're 15 saying that Let's talk about just the 16 people on that day. Let's talk about like for 17 instance somebody that maybe wasn't normally a 18 lieutenant. Can you - 19 MR. : Mm-hm. 20 MR. : All right. So she's in - 21 you said basically she's in training. She's 22 like an acting lieutenant. She's the person -. 23 MR. : I don't think she was acting 24 that day either though. I mean -. 25 MR. : Well I just mean that she EFTA00111169

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 was activities' lieutenant. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 3 MR. : Sorry. She was the 4 activities' lieutenant and she was either 5 training or she's typically an SIS at the time 6 though. Should have she known by Epstein being 7 on the hotlist and Epstein you know coming off 8 suicide watch. Should she have known that he 9 was required to have a cellmate? Just by -? 10 MR. : Uh-uh. No. 11 MR. : No? What about 12 Should he have known? 13 MR. : I mean that's only if you're 14 aware though. If I'm not aware, the guy left. 15 MR. : I thought you said if 16 you're - first of all, I thought you said that 17 18 MR. : Well, no. 19 MR. : Everybody knows that in 20 the SHU you're supposed to have a cellmate 21 unless you're a certain classification. 22 MR. : Yeah. But sometimes it be an 23 odd number and they can't have one. 24 MR. : But then the second thing 25 would be he's on the hotlist. Everybody knows EFTA00111170

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 if you're on the hotlist you're supposed to 2 have a cellmate. Right? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And then the third thing 5 would be that there's an actual email that was 6 sent out and that said he's supposed to have a 7 cellmate. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : So that's where With 10 that all in mind -. And I'm not -- 11 MR. : About the notifications 12 MR. : -- pointing to one person 13 out in particular. What I'm just asking is 14 these people that were working. So you're not 15 like throwing somebody under the bus. 16 MR. : Oh well. 17 MR. : I'm just asking like as 18 far as these people. Should have known 19 that there should have been -? And I'm not 20 saying that he knew. These people may very 21 well have not have known that I'm 22 just asking like -. 23 MR. : Yeah but I'm thinking. 24 MR. : In general with their 25 positions. EFTA00111171

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 MR. : In general. Well 2 probably never got the email. 3 MR. : Like you're saying you 4 knew. So yes. He knew. Should have 5 known? 6 MR. : I think all lieutenants 7 should know. 8 MR. : What about -? 9 MR. : But then again, we all - if 10 you're not aware to the inmate's leaving, 11 there's no reason to follow-up. 12 MR. : And that's why I started 13 after you. So at this point you said at least 14 by 8:00, people should know -. 15 MR. : That the guy's not coming 16 back or something. 17 MR. : He's not coming back. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : So that's where I'm going 20 off of -. Alright, there's three lieutenants 21 from that point. After you leave, there's 22 three lieutenants. Right? There's 23 MR. : Mm-hm. 24 MR. -: 25 MR. : Mm-hm. EFTA00111172

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 MR. : And then the next 2 morning, . Should - who 3 replaced you - should she have known that he 4 needed a cellmate? 5 MR. : I could see her not knowing. 6 MR. : And is that because she 7 wasn't a lieutenant? 8 MR. : Not a lieutenant. 9 MR. : Okay. What about 10 11 MR. : He's not a lieutenant. 12 MR. : So should have he known? 13 MR. : Yeah. Or knew. Like I said. 14 we all knew. 15 MR. : You all knew. 16 MR. : Because we got the email. 17 MR. : And then what about 18 ? Not only the email though. It 19 sounds like there was at least three checks. 20 One: he's in the SHU. Should have a cellmate. 21 Two: he came off of suicide watch. Should have 22 a cellmate. Three: an email was sent out to 23 all the lieutenants. Should have a cellmate. 24 So is there any -? 25 MR. : Yeah, but two and three EFTA00111173

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 happens all the time though. Like the guy 2 comes off suicide watch. You put him in SHU 3 with a cellmate. And then again, that's not 4 forever. 5 MR. : Yeah-yeah. But in this 6 case, you know, July 30th to August 9th or 7 10th. 8 MR. : But is it a set -? I don't 9 think -. That's up to psychology. Because we 10 have guys that - suicide watch. Same thing. 11 Once they leave, they didn't commit suicide and 12 it's nothing. 13 MR. : So if you get this email 14 then on July 30th saying make sure he's got a 15 cellmate. 16 MR. : There's no time on it. 17 MR. : In your mind, is that -? 18 Well two weeks from now? He doesn't need one 19 anymore. 20 MR. : There's no set time. It's 21 just immediately this guy's coming off. A guy 22 maybe got kicked to the unit. 23 MR. : Okay. So in his case -. 24 All right. How should it have been -? What 25 kind of notification should have been made EFTA00111174

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 then? 2 MR. : This is a tough one. But if 3 a guy goes to court and he leaves, you know and 4 you're doing your daily operations. There's so 5 much going on. Epstein ain't the - I know he's 6 high-profile out to the outside. 7 MR. : But I mean he's still on 8 the hotlist. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So he's on the hotlist 11 still. So doesn't that indicate he needs 12 cellmate? If he's still on the hotlist. 13 MR. : Yeah. But he had one. 14 Right? 15 MR. : Right. And that's why 16 I'm saying. By - we're knocking you and we're 17 knocking out of this thing because you're 18 saying 8:00. So let's now look at 8:00 on. 19 Let's say - even for this instance let's even 20 say and they didn't know. Now 21 let's look at Certainly by 22 midnight you should have known. Right? 23 MR. : Yeah. But not a lieutenant 24 though. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00111175

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 MR. : Like if the information isn't 2 told to me 3 MR. : But if they're coming in 4 You said that they needed to do a around. 5 Right? Don't these - for this case 6 needed to do a round in the SHU. 7 Correct? 8 MR. : Mm-hm. 9 MR. : Check on all the inmates. 10 MR. : Check inmates, feeding, or 11 officers - making sure they doing the rounds or 12 got to go to SHU. 13 MR. -: Was she 14 required to check on all the inmates and do a 15 round? 16 MR. : When she was probably doing a 17 round. Yeah. 18 MR. : All right. So as far as 19 her. By that point, now we've only got -. You 20 know we're now -. You know let's say that 21 she's the one that corrected you know the count 22 slip. She caught that. She goes. She visited 23 -. She's supposed to go to the SHU. She's 24 supposed to actually visit all the tiers and do 25 a round? EFTA00111176

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 MR. : I mean our policy is really 2 to say you've got to do a round in the SHU. 3 You know. So you in SHU, you in SHU. I don't 4 know what did she do. 5 MR. : And that's where I was 6 getting to before. Is doing a round in the SHU 7 for a lieutenant - does that mean just walking 8 into the SHU and walking out? Or does that 9 entail actually doing something when you're in 10 there? 11 MR. : I don't think -. There's no 12 guidance on that. 13 MR. : So we've had other people 14 tell us that when you - a lieutenant is 15 actually required to walk the tiers and conduct 16 a round. Not to list it on the round sheet, 17 but like it were - like the people who list 18 those rounds on the rounds sheet. Is that 19 you're understanding of what you were supposed 20 to do? 21 MR. : I mean yeah. 22 MR. : So is that what she 23 should have done? She should have walked the 24 tiers and checked on the inmates? 25 MR. : Yeah. I mean -. EFTA00111177

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 MR. : By policy I'm saying. 2 MR. : By policy you've got to make 3 a round. 4 MR. : And that round is 5 classified as like a round like the COs who are 6 in the SHU do a round? 7 MR. : I've got to double check on 8 that. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : To tell you the truth. 11 MR. : And that's what's unsure? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : You're unclear? Okay. 14 And that's where I'm still trying. Because 15 we've also had less people - but some people 16 have also said no, a round for a lieutenant and 17 a round for a CO is different. A round for a 18 lieutenant is visiting the SHU and checking in 19 with the officers. We've had more people say 20 no-no-no-no-no. You need to go into the SHU. 21 You need to check in with the officers, but you 22 also need to walk the tier. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : And I'm trying to get 25 that like -. EFTA00111178

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 MR. : It depends on the lieutenant. 2 MR. : And then their 3 interpretation? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : But there's no -? 6 MR. : Like I said that's why I 7 really don't - I'll have to check on that part. 8 MR. : Okay. And what policy 9 would that be in? Where it would spell that 10 out? 11 MR. : That would be in inmate 12 discipline which is SHU. And it also would 13 probably be in psychology. 14 MR. : So it would be psychology 15 for if the lieutenant needs to do it? 16 MR. : I know it's about 30 rounds 17 and everything. 18 MR. : But it would also be like 19 20 MR. : But for lieutenants -. 21 MR. : It would also be like a 22 SHU type of -? 23 MR. : Yeah. But I'm thinking it's 24 more You got the polices? 25 MR. : Well I got the SHU EFTA00111179

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 policies. I don't have the psychology. 2 MR. : Isn't it in there? 3 MR. : I don't know. I was 4 going to look. 5 MR. : Yeah. Let me see. It might 6 be. Psychology is definitely the 30-minute 7 rounds. I know. 8 MR. : Again these aren't "I 9 gotcha." These are just genuine questions. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : But psychology you think 12 might have it with like lieutenants -. 13 MR. : Well they definitely with the 14 30 minutes. The -. 15 MR. : Yeah. I mean the SHU 16 policy clearly states that rounds need to be 17 conducted. I just haven't seen anything that 18 said lieutenants need to do it. And that's 19 where - I mean you can look through them if you 20 want. 21 MR. : Nah. 22 MR. : If you can 23 MR. : I think it's in there. It 24 may not be in this, but it's definitely in 25 there. Speaking of lieutenants, we don't need EFTA00111180

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 to make you look in this. We'll look it up. 2 MR. : This is post orders. 3 MR. : We'll dig into that. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : But you think it's 6 probably in the SHU? 7 MR. : Yeah. It's a round, but to 8 say specific go 10, check on and all that. I 9 don't know if it says all that. 10 MR. : All right. It just says 11 you need to conduct a round. And then 12 different people interpret it different way. 13 MR. : Yeah. Yep. 14 MR. : All right. You said -. 15 MR. : But then again, if you don't 16 get the information, I can see it being missed. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : Because if no one tells me 19 that the guy left -. 20 MR. : But if she says that I 21 know Reyes left, I know Epstein is by himself. 22 But I didn't know he needed a cellmate. 23 MR. : Mm-hm. 24 MR. : Does that make sense to 25 you at all? EFTA00111181

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 MR. : I mean. Unless she didn't 2 get the email or she's not -. I don't know how 3 it is. Maybe she wasn't aware. 4 MR. : But I mean that fact that 5 - again - those three things we talked about. 6 I understand you say like odd number or you 7 know that kind of stuff. But the fact that 8 there's an email that went out, there's the 9 hotlist that has his name on it, and the fact 10 that he's in the SHU and he's not one of those. 11 So one of those three, she should have at least 12 known, right, that Epstein was required to have 13 a cellmate? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : So her saying I didn't 16 know. Is that to you like, of course you knew. 17 You're been around for a long time. Whereas -. 18 MR. : I mean I'm thinking she needs 19 - no one told her. 20 MR. : No one verbalized it Lc 21 her. 22 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 23 MR. : But do you think that 24 that's an appropriate excuse for a lieutenant? 25 Saying that I didn't know if those three things EFTA00111182

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 are in place? 2 MR. : I'm not sure. 3 MR. : You're not sure. And I 4 know you don't want to like - you know - but 5 like - I'm just trying to reconcile it too. 6 Like alright, if you're saying you didn't know, 7 how is that possible if everybody else -. 8 Everybody else I talked to seems to know. 9 MR. : Then again, I told you the 10 hotlist and all that. That's things that's 11 like -. Like the email, even though it's out, 12 that's - there's no timeframe on that. 13 MR. : Yeah. But the fact that 14 they're still on the hotlist, I would think 15 that that would continue because the email went 16 out -- 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- but then you're also 19 placed on the hotlist. And if you're on the 20 hotlist it basically corresponds with that 21 email. Correct? 22 MR. : Yeah. But the hotlist is for 23 initial. So you get locked up, that's when I'm 24 checking. I know I'm checking to see if this 25 inmate is on the hotlist. Initially. EFTA00111183

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 MR. : So only when the hotlist 2 changes? You're not looking at the people that 3 are still on the hotlist? 4 MR. : Well I'm saying like if 5 there's ten on there. and a guy gets locked up 6 - Williams from 11 North. He comes and he just 7 got a psych alert and we make sure he get a 8 bunkie. He got a bunkie. He goes a month with 9 a bunkie. Day 31 we're not still - you know. 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah. So in this 11 case you think even July 30th to August 9th 12 when the guy leaves that could be enough time 13 to say he doesn't need one anymore? 14 MR. : I mean I'm not psychology. 15 MR. : All right. And you don't 16 know of psychology making any more -? No one 17 told you -? 18 MR. : No one specified the time 19 frame - 20 MR. : I need to -. 21 MR. : -- about how long he was 22 going to be -. 23 MR. : Did anyone after July 24 30th after receiving that email, did anyone 25 walk to you about Epstein needing a cellmate? EFTA00111184

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 MR. : Not that I recall. 2 MR. : No? Who should have? If 3 he in fact did continue to need a cellmate, who 4 should have told you? 5 MR. : I say psychology. 6 MR. : Psychology? Not the 7 captain or another lieutenant? It was 8 psychology? 9 MR. : Psychology. They deal with 10 that. 11 MR. : And who in psychology? 12 MR. : Any one of them. 13 MR. : Anybody? 14 MR. : Anyone. Hey, it's an email. 15 MR. : So just you think that 16 they should have continued like once a week or 17 something sending out an email? Or how often? 18 MR. : I mean -. 19 MR. : Because that wasn't even 20 two weeks after that email went out. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So like how soon should 23 they? 24 MR. : I don't think a weekly or you 25 know. EFTA00111185

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 MR. : That was maybe ten days. 2 MR. : Because I don't know. I 3 don't know. I know they (Indiscernible 4 *02:30:39) to us so I don't know their policy. 5 Because I know they supposed to follow-up. And 6 then there's steps to it. I don't know. I'm 7 not familiar with that policy. 8 MR. : Okay. But you think it 9 was psychology's - they're the ones that should 10 have made sure like there's people -- 11 MR. : Well they 12 MR. : -- in the SHU and the 13 MR. : They sent out the email to 14 us. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : They notified us. 17 MR. : But you're saying like 18 that could be like a day or two. It doesn't 19 mean that two weeks from there it matters. 20 MR. : Yeah, I mean. That happens 21 two weeks after that? Yeah. The guy goes to 22 court. He leaves. There's a time and 23 opportunity. And I don't think it's nobody's 24 fault. 25 MR. : You think it's just -? EFTA00111186

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 MR. : I just don't think it's 2 nobody's fault. 3 MR. : Okay. And do you recall 4 this sign - or any sign - hanging up saying 5 that he needed a cellmate, or he needed to be 6 30-minute rounds on him? 7 MR. : I definitely don't recall 8 that. Signs about you saying him needed rounds 9 or -? 10 MR. : That's the rounds. 11 MR. : No the one that - 12 MR. : And then you don't -. 13 MR. : Another one is. 14 MR. : Another one saying that 15 he was required to have a cellmate. 16 MR. : The sign? 17 MR. : So we've been told that 18 there was a sign saying that Epstein was 19 required to have a cellmate in the SHU on the 20 desk area. 21 MR. : Could have been. I don't 22 know. I don't be in the desk area. 23 MR. : So you don't - you're not 24 aware? But you know that there was a hotlist 25 at least. EFTA00111187

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 MR. : No. The hotlist is there. 2 It's been there since I was working there. The 3 hotlist is back there. And that's about it. 4 MR. : And do you know if 5 Epstein was on the hotlist? 6 MR. : No. I'm not sure. 7 MR. : You're not sure. 8 MR. : Do you have the hotlist? 9 MR. : Not with us. No. I don't 10 think. Do we have it? No. You said you 11 didn't even as the ops lieutenant you don't 12 recall specific conversations with anybody that 13 worked in the SHU on August 9th or 10th? No? 14 MR. : Specific conversation, no. 15 It was a regular day. 16 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I mean 17 up - leading from basically July 30th to August 18 9th. 19 MR. : Oh. About the -? 20 MR. : About the need for 21 checking on Epstein or a cellmate or anything 22 to do with Epstein? 23 MR. : No. All I know is when he 24 tried it the first time, he went to suicide 25 watch. Came off. And they put him with the EFTA00111188