LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 inside the SHU. Yes. Because some 2 MR. : Is there always two 3 people required to be in the SHU at all times? 4 Can there ever be one person left alone in the 5 SHU? 6 MR. THOMAS: I've seen when it's been one 7 person, but it's -. If I'm not mistaken, it's 8 required for us to be I think a minimum of two. 9 MR. : Okay. So if you need to 10 actually leave the SHU during that shift when 11 there's only two people there, what do you do? 12 If two people are supposed to be there, do you 13 have to call and see if someone else can come 14 replace you? Or is it -? 15 MR. THOMAS: Um.... Uh...if you're 16 talking about like for emergencies, maybe of 17 course somebody has to replace you and maybe 18 they might be - could be just short-handed and 19 you just left alone. But I know sometimes we 20 used to have to count next door. We used to go 21 count um, nine - the 9th floor. So it just 22 varies. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: Um. 25 MR. : So do you have like a EFTA00113777

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 certain amount of time that you're allowed to 2 leave one person alone? Like for instance 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. 4 MR. : -- if you've got to go 5 help with a count? Are you allowed to say, hey 6 I'll be right back? And you get like a 10- 7 minute window or anything like that? Or -- 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't -- 9 MR. : -- how does that work? 10 MR. THOMAS: -- know if it's um, a 11 particular number or anything like that. But 12 if you're going to go count 8, or you're going 13 to count 10 and then you're going to go count 14 9. I don't -. There's no particular time. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: You know what I mean. People 17 walk different (Indiscernible *02:24:25) and 18 probably walk faster than say Mr. Or 19 yourself where some people might be walking 20 fast. It's -. As far as I know, there's no 21 particular -- 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: -- set time. 24 MR. : So you already said you 25 didn't leave the SHU on August 10th. Did you EFTA00113778

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 know if Noel left the SHU at all on August 2 10th? 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don't 4 remember. I don't remember. 5 MR. : You just know you were 6 there the whole time? 7 MR. THOMAS: If I didn't count 10. I 8 don't know if I counted 10 or not. I don't 9 remember if I counted 10 or not. 10 MR. : Now if you count 10 is 11 that considered leaving the SHU? Because isn't 12 that count part of the SHU? 13 MR. THOMAS: I've seen that that's a 14 different number. It's a different floor. 15 That's actually - you're not inside the SHU. 16 You're inside 10 South which is a totally 17 different place. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. THOMAS: But if you -. 20 MR. : But you don't have to go 21 through like control and all those door locks. 22 That's all kind of within that general SHU 23 area? 24 MR. THOMAS: Control has to pop the door. 25 MR. : Oh they do have to pop EFTA00113779

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 the door? 2 MR. THOMAS: They do have to pop the door 3 for you get inside. The same process. You take 4 the phone off the hook. You ring the officer 5 inside and control has to pop your door. And 6 then once you're out, once control pops that 7 outer door, the officer inside has to open up 8 the inner door. 9 MR. : Okay. So it is its own 10 separate unit. 11 MR. THOMAS: It's its own separate unit 12 just like any of the -. Say if I go to 13 MR. : So there's two officers 14 at 12:00 a.m. to 6:30 -. 15 MR. THOMAS: No it's one officer up there. 16 MR. : There's only one officer 17 in there? 18 MR. THOMAS: It's one officer up there. 19 So that's why somebody has to go up there and 20 count. 21 MR. : Okay. Is it always then 22 from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 one of the people that 23 are in the SHU always have to assist 10 South? 24 MR. THOMAS: They - most of the time they 25 assist 10 South and sometimes they - more often EFTA00113780

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 than not they have to assist 9 North as well. 2 MR. : Okay. And what's 9 3 North? 4 MR. THOMAS: The unit across the hall. 5 MR. : Is that also like a 6 special housing unit type of situation? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. It's a regular housing 8 unit. 9 MR. : Okay. But you don't know 10 if that's against policy or not? 11 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if it's against 12 policy if you're just helping out because 13 you're short-handed. 14 MR. : Sure. 15 MR. THOMAS: Short-handed then. 16 MR. : Alright. Are you guys 17 authorized when you're in the SHU to be able to 18 access the computers for your own personal 19 reasons? Like are you allowed to do internet 20 searches and things like that? Limited 21 personal use? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if you are or 23 aren't authorized or not but I don't know if 24 it's unauthorized or not. 25 MR. : You're not even sure? EFTA00113781

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: I'm not. 2 MR. : They don't talk to you 3 about like what you can and can't do? 4 MR. THOMAS: Well I -. I know you're 5 locked. You can't just go shoot, search 6 Facebook or YouTube and those things are not 7 allowed on those types of computers. 8 MR. : Oh, okay. You're not 9 allowed to do like email or like Facebook or 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. You can't do any of 11 that stuff and you can't access. As far as I 12 know you can't access your own personal email. 13 You have the job email and everything like 14 that. And that's about it. 15 MR. : Are you allowed to do 16 like regular internet searches though and 17 things? 18 MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. THOMAS: No. 21 MR. : Do you recall using the 22 internet on August 10th? 23 MR. THOMAS: I wrote my name and it says 24 yeah, I recall using the internet at that time. 25 MR. : Okay. Do you remember 206 EFTA00113782

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2-- 1 what you were searching for? 2 MR. THOMAS: Um, it says motorcycle. 3 MR. : Motorcycles? Alright. 4 But do you know if that was authorized or not 5 authorized? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 7 MR. : So you're not sure. 8 Okay. Are you aware if Noel also was utilizing 9 the computer? 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't know what she was on. 11 MR. : No. But do you know if 12 she was using the computer? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If she was I don't 14 know. Like I said, we're facing two totally 15 different directions. 16 MR. : Sure. Do you know, were 17 you seated -? What desk were you seated at? 18 Were you happened to be seated at the OIC's 19 desk? 20 MR. THOMAS: There's no - specifically 21 this is the OIC station and this is somebody 22 else here. It's not labeled that way. 23 MR. : Alright. The reason why 24 I ask, I'm told that there was a sign on the 25 OIC's desk that said Epstein is required to EFTA00113783

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 have a cellmate. So I was told that the OIC 2 had like a specific desk. Do you call seeing 3 that sign -- 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : -- on any of the 6 computers or desk areas? 7 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. 8 MR. : That Epstein is required 9 to have a cellmate? 10 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. 11 MR. : No. Alright. So as far 12 as visitors to the SHU. You said that there 13 was - lane came at 4:00 but you 14 don't recall any - another CO coming in at 5:30 15 a.m.? 16 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. 17 MR. : No? And the food 18 delivery. You said that's all outside of the 19 SHU? You go out and get that yourself? 20 MR. THOMAS: You go out and get that. 21 mean it happens I mean if I'm not mistaken it 22 was just me and Noel up there. At some time 23 the 6:00 count come. He's pushing it in when 24 he comes along. But I don't remember seeing 25 the 6:00 cart come in at that time. EFTA00113784

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 MR. : Alright. 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don't 3 remember if he was there or not. I really 4 don't remember. 5 MR. : Okay. And you said no 6 one entered Epstein's cell between 12:00 a.m. 7 and 6:00 a.m. that you know of? 8 MR. THOMAS: Not by my knowledge. 9 MR. : And did you enter 10 Epstein's cell at all between 6:00 and 11 approximately 6:30? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : And so never before the 14 initial -? 15 MR. THOMAS: The yes. The (Indiscernible 16 *02:28:54) 17 MR. : Okay. Do you know who 18 the last person was to enter Epstein's cell? 19 MR. THOMAS: I do not know. 20 MR. : Okay. Do you know what 21 would be the purpose of someone for the last 22 person to enter his cell? When you give people 23 food, do you do it through the food tray? 24 MR. THOMAS: Food slot. 25 MR. : Food slot. EFTA00113785

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 2 MR. : Food slot. So what would 3 be a purpose to actually enter a cell? 4 MR. THOMAS: During which shift? My 5 shift? The overnight? 6 MR. : Yeah just what would be 7 the -. So if you can think of a reason why 8 people would go into inmates' cells. What 9 would be the reason why someone would have -? 10 MR. THOMAS: Most of the time you don't go 11 in an inmate's cell. Unless authorized. The 12 lieutenant has to be there to go in there. 13 MR. : Into an inmate's cell? 14 MR. THOMAS: Well if you're talking about 15 during the morning watch. I can't go in there 16 until the lieutenant comes. I wouldn't just go 17 in unless the lieutenant was there. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : So officers don't go into 21 inmates' cells unless lieutenants are present? 22 MR. THOMAS: No not for all - if an inmate 23 is harming himself, I'm not going to wait for a 24 lieutenant -- 25 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah- EFTA00113786

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 1 yeah. 2 MR. : Yeah. That's understood. 3 You know what I'm saying. But as far as just 4 going in the cell, I'm not going to go in there 5 unless the lieutenant is present. 6 MR. : Okay. Do you recall any 7 issues with any other inmates on August 10, 8 2019? During your shift? 9 MR. THOMAS: With me? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. THOMAS: No. 12 MR. : You had no - any issues? 13 Do you remember like were inmates complaining 14 about the cells being left on or anything like 15 that? 16 MR. THOMAS: Cells being left on? 17 MR. : Sorry. The lights being 18 left on. 19 MR. THOMAS: Nah, I don't remember. They 20 complain about a lot. I don't really remember. 21 MR. : Do you know of any other 22 inmates that were like, came from suicide watch 23 or were supposed to have special attention or 24 anything? 25 MR. THOMAS: Ah no. I don't remember. EFTA00113787

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 MR. : So you don't remember 2 complaints about the lights being left on? 3 Nothing? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : How do the lights work? 6 Do you - are the lights left on down the range 7 that (Indiscernible *02:30:41)? 8 MR. THOMAS: The lights are left on down 9 the range, but all inmates cover up their 10 lights anyway. But even with the light switch 11 it doesn't cut off all the lights. It's a 12 light switch. As soon as you go into the tier 13 to the left. And it shuts off the lights. But 14 some work and some because you can shut it off 15 and an inmate could still turn on his light. 16 It doesn't shut the power off to him. 17 MR. : So they have access to 18 their own interior lights? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes they do. 20 MR. : But the outside lights 21 that you have access to - do they remain on? 22 MR. THOMAS: They remain on 24/7, seven 23 days a week, 24 MR. : They do? Alright. 25 MR. THOMAS: -- 365 days. EFTA00113788

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 MR. : And is that like they 2 have to remain on type of thing? 3 MR. THOMAS: I guess so. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 6 MR. : Alright. Now we're going 7 to talk about the medical emergency. Was there 8 a medical emergency in the SHU on the morning 9 of August 10, 2019? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 11 MR. : Why was the medical 12 emergency called? 13 MR. THOMAS: When I went up to the cell to 14 feed the tier, when I knocked on the door, I 15 seen Mr. Epstein and I said to come to the 16 door, come to the door. And he didn't move. 17 And then I said I'm coming in. And then I went 18 in and he was hanging. 19 MR. : Okay. When was the 20 medical emergency called? 21 MR. THOMAS: I called it immediately. I 22 couldn't tell you the exact time. 23 MR. : But you called it? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I yelled to Noel to 25 get help. EFTA00113789

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. THOMAS: I yelled to Noel. 3 MR. : So you've gone to the 4 door, saw what you saw, and you yelled to - 5 immediately? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I yelled to -. Well 7 when I got to the door, I couldn't see what I 8 was seeing. When I popped it open, I seen what 9 I saw and I yelled for help. 10 MR. : So was the medical 11 emergency called before you even entered the 12 cell? Did you call Noel to call the medical? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I called for Noel to 14 call for the medical emergency. Yes. 15 MR. : Prior to entering? 16 MR. THOMAS: Right as soon as I entered. 17 Right as soon as I entered. 18 MR. : Okay. So kind of like 19 opened the door and you said call for help. 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Exactly. 21 MR. : That type of thing and 22 you ran in. 23 MR. THOMAS: Simultaneously. Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. So at what time -? 25 So if the medical emergency was called at 6:33 EFTA00113790

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 a.m., approximately what time was Epstein 2 discovered? Do you think like a minute went 3 by? Two minutes? Three minutes? Five 4 minutes? 5 MR. THOMAS: The - I can't tell you the 6 exact time, but I know whenever I popped -. 7 Because I don't know what time the food cart 8 came. The food cart came up. I don't remember 9 if we set up all the tiers first or we set it 10 up just -. That took us -. Usually how I do 11 is I set up all the tiers and then I come back 12 to the first tier and then I put it on. I don't 13 remember if I did so or not. But when I got to 14 this particular -. When I got to his cell, I 15 got there, I came with the food. I put them 16 all on the walking food cart that's there that 17 you put - that you could take. Let's say it 18 was 15 inmates up there that you take. Usually 19 in the morning there's two trays. I walked up 20 there. I had it all set up so if the food 21 cart. I don't know who was one. Certain 22 people, food cart come up early, some people 23 the food cart come up late. If the food cart 24 came up early, let's say by the time I 25 discovered - by the time I would let's say if I EFTA00113791

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 went in there at 6:00, yelled the medical 2 emergency at 6:01 and your question was -. 3 MR. : Sorry. So the medical 4 emergency was called at 6:33. 5 MR. THOMAS: 6:33. So I opened -- 6 MR. : So I'm saying -. 7 MR. THOMAS: -- the cell at - if it's 8 closer. I opened the cell at 6:32. 9 MR. : Okay. So approximately 10 probably like a minute? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It couldn't have taken 12 her because I yelled to Noel. She yelled. It 13 couldn't have taken more than 30 seconds for 14 her to rush and yell for that emergency. 15 MR. : Alright. But you are the 16 one that discovered Epstein in his cell? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yes I am. 18 MR. : Okay. And who called the 19 medical emergency? 20 MR. THOMAS: I would assume Noel did or 21 she -- 22 MR. : Well the - 23 MR. THOMAS: -- yelled it over the radio 24 or whatever. 25 MR. : And that's what I was EFTA00113792

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217 1 going to say. How was the medical emergency 2 called? Did she call it on the radio? Did she 3 have to call on the phone? How does that work? 4 MR. THOMAS: I - if -. She could have 5 called on the radio. She could have did either 6 or. She could have called over the radio. SHU 7 need assistance. She could have the radio over 8 the phone. I don't remember 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. THOMAS: exactly which one that she 11 did. But it could have been either or. 12 MR. : Do you know what she 13 said? What did you tell her at the time? Did 14 you say we need assistance? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. I said. Yeah. 16 Medical emergency. Need help. Need help. 17 MR. : Need help. 18 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. THOMAS: I don't know my exact words. 21 I'm sure I just said to say we need help. 22 MR. : Okay. When was the last 23 time you saw Epstein prior to the discovery? 24 MR. THOMAS: Um.... Prior to the 25 discovery? That day that I sat with him. No- EFTA00113793

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 no. Probably the day prior. The day prior 2 when I fed him. 3 MR. : So the day prior. 4 MR. THOMAS: The day prior when I fed him. 5 MR. : So -. 6 MR. THOMAS: Yep. 7 MR. : On August 9th on your 8 shift sometime between I guess in the morning. 9 Around like between 6:00, 6:30? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Whatever. It's 11 between 6:00 and 6:30. 12 MR. : So approximately 24 hours 13 before? 14 MR. THOMAS: That I actually seen him or - 15 16 MR. : That you just laid eyes 17 on him. 18 MR. THOMAS: Probably when I did my count. 19 Like when you're talking about we actually fed 20 right when I did my count that night. The 21 night prior. The night when I did morning 22 watch. 23 MR. : Alright. So you wouldn't 24 have seen him when -. Did you feed him? 25 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure I did the feeding. EFTA00113794

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 MR. : But you don't actually 2 put eyes on people when you do the feeding? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. When you do the 4 feeding. So yeah, the feeding prior in that 5 time. 6 MR. : So I'm just saying when 7 you looked at him. You looked him - 8 MR. THOMAS: Oh looked at him besides -? 9 He grabbed the tray and we spoke. Yeah. 10 MR. : So probably about 24 11 hours before. 12 MR. THOMAS: Twenty-four hours prior to 13 that. Yeah. That morning watch on the 6:00 14 when I did the feeing. 15 MR. : Okay. And did -- 16 MR. THOMAS: On the 9th. 17 MR. you notice anything 18 unusual when you last saw him? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. No. 20 MR. : No? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. Just took his tray. 22 MR. : Do you know who the last 23 person was to see Epstein alive? 24 MR. THOMAS: No. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00113795

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 220 1 MR. THOMAS: Not there. 2 MR. : Do you remember hearing 3 anything from Epstein's cell between the times 4 of 12:00 a.m. and 6:33 a.m.? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. 6 MR. : So you never heard like 7 any kind of banging or rustling or you know 8 coughing or -? 9 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 10 MR. : Nothing? 11 MR. THOMAS: No. 12 MR. : No movement or anything 13 like that? 14 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 15 MR. : Alright. So you said 16 when you discovered him, you were outside the 17 door. You saw through the actual window. 18 Correct? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 MR. : And that's when you 21 noticed something was off? 22 MR. THOMAS: I noticed something off or 23 anything like that. Yes. 24 MR. : And where was Noel 25 standing? Do you remember? EFTA00113796

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 MR. THOMAS: Um... I don't -. I can't 2 recall. 3 MR. : Was she near you? Was 4 she on the same tier? Do you know if she was 5 like somewhere else? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't She -. I really 7 can't recall. I don't know. To just be 8 specific I really don't know where she was 9 standing. If she was standing at the grill or 10 if she was standing at the base. I really 11 couldn't -. I really don't remember. 12 MR. : When you're feeding the 13 inmates, is she typically near you? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. She doesn't have to be. 15 She could like I said, it all depends on how 16 that day. Like I said, we both were tired. 17 She could have been setting up the rest of the 18 tiers. If I didn't set up the tiers. So until 19 I yelled for that help, that's the minute. And 20 when I yelled for that help, she reacted to my 21 yell. 22 MR. : Do you -? When you 23 yelled for help, do you remember ever seeing 24 her? Making sure she knew? 25 MR. THOMAS: I really can't recall. EFTA00113797

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 MR. : Yeah. You just remember 2 yelling. 3 MR. THOMAS: Because I'm in the cell. 4 Yeah I'm in the cell at that time. 5 MR. : Alright. 6 MR. THOMAS: But I know she heard me. 7 MR. : You know she heard you. 8 Do you remember like her responding or 9 anything. Like I'm on it. 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 11 MR. ., Received? Copy? 12 MR. THOMAS: I really don't 13 MR. : Anything? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 15 MR. : So you just know you 16 yelled. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 18 MR. : You don't know where she 19 was? 20 MR. THOMAS: I don't know where she was. 21 She was just at the grill or whatever. Maybe 22 she was to the grill. I don't remember exactly 23 where she was at. But I yelled and I know she 24 called for help because help came. 25 MR. : Alright. So when you did EFTA00113798

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 see Epstein This is where we're going to 2 have to get into a little more detail. 3 MR. THOMAS: Sure. 4 MR. : What did you see? 5 MR. THOMAS: He was hanging by a sheet. 6 MR. : So what was he hanging 7 from? 8 MR. THOMAS: His bed. 9 MR. : From his bed? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 11 MR. : Did you see the picture? 12 Actually there (Indiscernible *02:38:12). 13 Sure. 14 MR. MITCHELL: He needs a break. 15 MR. : You want to take a break 16 - a little break? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I got another 10 18 minutes here. I've got to go. 19 MR. : Alright. 20 MR. THOMAS: The hour-and-a-half is up for 21 the thing. 22 MR. : So we have 10 minutes? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 24 MR. : Alright. Ten minutes and 25 then we'll take another little break. We're EFTA00113799

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 224 1 getting close. But. So this can help us with 2 this when we were talking about the SHU. And 3 just so can we get these maps out of there. Do 4 you mind just initialing and dating this? 5 Thank you, sir. Alright. So here's some 6 pictures I want to show you. Is this - was 7 Epstein on L tier? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. See this is exactly 9 what I'm saying. Like this is down from M tier 10 but yeah he's on L tier. 11 MR. : Okay. Where was his 12 cell? 13 MR. THOMAS: It would be back here. 14 MR. : Back on this side? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 16 MR. : Alright. What am I 17 looking at here? Are you able to tell? 18 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't tell you what tier 19 it is. But it's just a hallway and that's the 20 food cart. 21 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 22 initialing and dating that? Is this the door 23 that you walked up to when you saw? 24 MR. THOMAS: If you say it is, okay. 25 MR. : Alright. So you can't EFTA00113800

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 even actually see that because it's crossed 2 with this crime scene. 3 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : But um, do you have any 5 reason to believe that that wouldn't be the 6 door that you went into -- 7 MR. THOMAS: no. 8 MR. : -- where Epstein was 9 discovered? 10 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. I have no reason to 11 believe it. 12 MR. : Okay. When you walked 13 in, does this look like it was the same type of 14 cell? Because all I'm going to ask is where he 15 was hanging. 16 MR. THOMAS: He was hanging over here to 17 this side. 18 MR. : Okay. So is this a 19 picture where -? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah because if you put them 21 together, like the bunk it's over to this side. 22 MR. : Alright. So was he 23 hanging from something in here? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Hanging from - it was 25 tied up right here and then I ripped it down EFTA00113801

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 1 and I put him to the ground. 2 MR. : So was this what he was 3 tied to? 4 MR. THOMAS: It was more - it wasn't just 5 that little thing. It was more stringed then 6 that that I ripped down. 7 MR. : Alright. 8 MR. THOMAS: Maybe it's down there or 9 something like that. Like I see some string and 10 stuff right here. 11 MR. : Do you just mind like 12 marking where it was that - where the noose or 13 whatever - the rope was tied? Just for 14 clarity? What it was attached to? 15 MR. THOMAS: It was attached to the bunk. 16 It's attached to the bunk. 17 MR. : Is this it here though? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah, it's attached to 19 the bunk to this general area eight here. 20 MR. : So just circle that 21 general area. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 23 MR. : Alright. You mind just 24 initialing and dating that? Alright. 25 MR. THOMAS: Am I doing the same with this EFTA00113802

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 227 1 one? 2 MR. : No-no-no. We'll -. Well 3 you can if you want sure. I mean you looked at 4 it. And do you believe -? So did you take 5 down this and somebody put it back up? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. I -. It was attached to 7 them and it wasn't just that singular piece. 8 It might have more rope to it. 9 MR. : Alright. There was more 10 rope to it? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 12 MR. : But this is what was 13 hanging? He was hanging - 14 /t It was something (Indiscernible 15 *02:41:36) I don't know if that's a sheet or 16 shirt or whatever the case may be. But yeah. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: He was hanging from over 19 there. 20 MR. : From this area? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 22 MR. : Alright. You mind just 23 initialing and dating that? Alright. So when 24 you went in, you found him, he was still 25 hanging. EFTA00113803

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 2 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. : And what did you do? MR. THOMAS: I ripped him down and I 4 yelled for help and I started for CPR. 5 MR. : So how did you rip him 6 down? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah I just ripped the sheet 8 down. 9 MR. : So you ripped the sheet 10 first? 11 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : And then did you like 13 pick him up or did you just throw him on the 14 floor -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. 16 MR. : -- or did he fall in the 17 floor? 18 MR. THOMAS: Kind of just like got him to 19 the floor. I ripped it off like that and then 20 he dropped of course. And then I laid him onto 21 the ground. 22 MR. : Okay. So he dropped - 23 fall? After you -? 24 MR. THOMAS: Well it's wasn't As you 25 could see, it's not that -. If you can see by EFTA00113804

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 the thing like that. (Indiscernible 2 *02:42:30). Where's the picture? 3 MR. : Right here. In the, can 4 I have the picture back? 5 MR. THOMAS: Oh. The ground it right 6 here. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. THOMAS: Like if you take he's maybe 9 like plopped to the- he was maybe about an 10 inch-and-a-half or maybe an inch off the 11 ground. 12 MR. : So. 13 MR. THOMAS: Like he was lower than the -. 14 MR. : So after you ripped this 15 thing, did he just fall first? 16 MR. THOMAS: Just dropped down. Yeah. 17 MR. : He dropped down? 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : And then you moved him? 20 So alright. 21 MR. THOMAS: I did not move him to 22 (Indiscernible *02:42:52) 23 MR. : So you rip the sheet. He 24 falls to the floor. 25 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. EFTA00113805

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 MR. : And then you moved him 2 where you could start CPR? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. So I could lay him 4 down and start CPR. 5 MR. : Alright. Do you remember 6 if his like if anything of his body hit 7 anywhere? 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 9 MR. : When he fell? 10 MR. THOMAS: No I don't remember his body 11 hitting anywhere. 12 MR. : We just - the reason why 13 we're asking is like with the autopsy -- 14 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 15 MR. : -- we've got to make sure 16 of that. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah-yeah. The - it's 18 just like a drop down. 19 MR. : Alright. So he dropped -- 20 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- basically do you 22 remember if he landed on his butt? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. On his butt. Yeah. 24 He landed on his butt here. 25 MR. : He landed on his butt? EFTA00113806

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : But his head remained 3 upright? 4 MR. THOMAS: Nah, I'm sure he 5 MR. : I don't mean upright like 6 looking at you but I mean like he was -. His 7 body remained upright. 8 MR. THOMAS: I would guess he was just 9 limped over. I would say just limped over. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. THOMAS: And I just -. 12 MR. : And then you physical 13 moved him you know to -- 14 MR. THOMAS: To the floor. 15 MR. : -- the floor. 16 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 17 MR. : Alright. Do you remember 18 if his - like anything hit harder than another 19 when you moved him -- 20 MR. THOMAS: I really don't -- 21 MR. to the floor? 22 MR. THOMAS: remember other than. 23 MR. : Yeah. No worries. 24 Alright. So he was still hanging. That was 25 the position you found him on, you ripped it EFTA00113807

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 off. He fell to the floor. You then moved him 2 to the ground. What was he wearing at the 3 time? Do you remember? 4 MR. THOMAS: Pants. 5 MR. : Was he naked or anything 6 like that? Or he still had his clothes on? 7 MR. THOMAS: He wasn't naked. He wasn't 8 naked. He still had a -. I'm going to say he 9 I want to say he had a jumper on. He had 10 his jumper how they have - it's not all the way 11 up to the top right there, but it's like around 12 the waist. So maybe he had pants on. I do 13 remember he wasn't totally naked. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. THOMAS: And he wasn't in his boxer 16 shorts or anything like that. But he was just 17 and he had a - he had no shirt on. He didn't 18 have a shirt on. 19 MR. : He didn't have a shirt 20 on. Alright. Was there -? You said this was 21 still around his neck. When he fell off did 22 that come away from his neck? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. He didn't have 24 anything around his neck when he came up. 25 Yeah. EFTA00113808

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 233 1 MR. : Okay. And what was it 2 that was around his neck? 3 MR. THOMAS: It was either a sheet or a 4 shirt. I don't know which one it is. A sheet 5 or shirt. I didn't really pay attention to it. 6 MR. : Now are the sheets and 7 the shirts both orange? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. So it wasn't - you 10 weren't able to tell if it was -. 11 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't tell you if it was 12 a sheet or a shirt. No I didn't. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: I didn't look to see what it 15 was. Now what did he look like? 16 MR. THOMAS: Um.... A white male...? i 17 don't know.... 18 MR. : Was he like completely 19 purple? 20 MR. THOMAS: No, he was - no-no-no-no. 21 Absolutely not. He wasn't completely -. He 22 was just - he just looked like he'd been 23 hanging like he just hung himself. It wasn't 24 like he was red or blue or his lips were like a 25 different color. It wasn't any of that stuff. EFTA00113809

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 He was just 2 MR. : It looked like it 3 happened just recently or like you know -? 4 MR. THOMAS: I mean I'm not a doctor, I 5 couldn't 6 MR. : Sure-sure-sure. 7 MR. THOMAS: -- tell you if a doctor -. I 8 just He didn't look um. I don't say he 9 didn't look different. I mean he just 10 MR. : So he -. 11 MR. THOMAS: -- like he just hung himself. 12 It wasn't no discoloration of anything like 13 that if that's what you're trying to get. And 14 it like - like he just hung himself. 15 MR. : Alright. So you don't - 16 he didn't' look at that much different than 17 when he looked when he was alive? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Didn't look. 19 MR. : He looked pretty much the 20 same? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Just the - not -. 22 MR. : Okay. And you said or 23 did you notice anything unusual in his cell 24 when you went in? 25 MR. THOMAS: No. No I didn't. EFTA00113810

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 MR. : No? And you said that 2 you started CPR. 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. 4 MR. : And what did you do -? 5 MR. THOMAS: I started doing chest 6 compressions. 7 MR. : Just chest compressions? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Just chest 9 compressions. 10 MR. : Any kind of like mouth- 11 to-mouth type of - 12 MR. THOMAS: No. I didn't do any mouth- 13 to-mouth. I was doing chest compressions. It 14 took maybe about -. It wasn't that long before 15 they came with the thing and they started doing 16 all the other stuff. I can't remember the 17 medic name. The guy. I can't remember his 18 name. 19 MR. : Alright. So did he stay 20 all kind - was it all kind of right there next 21 to the bed? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, it was right there 23 until - 24 MR. : Did you have to move him 25 out at all? EFTA00113811

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 1 MR. THOMAS: No because they did - they 2 was doing the AED and everything right there 3 inside the cell. 4 MR. : So right in the corner of 5 that bunk? 6 MR. THOMAS: It's not in the corner it can 7 stretch out like you know -. It's like right - 8 9 MR. : No-no-no, I'm saying for 10 you - when you're doing your chest 11 compressions. 12 MR. THOMAS: No when I'm doing my chest 13 compressions, he's laying out like right here. 14 A few feet. Maybe all right here but he's 15 laying about right here. 16 MR. : So after -. 17 MR. THOMAS: Like about this way. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. THOMAS: Without the wall of course. 20 MR. : But so he was on the 21 floor -- 22 MR. THOMAS: He was on the floor. 23 MR. : -- while you were doing 24 the -. 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113812

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 MR. : And you didn't really 2 have to move him so much -? 3 MR. THOMAS: No I did not. 4 MR. : After you like moved him 5 from the hanging position to the ground, to the 6 floor -- 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 8 MR. : Chest compressions 9 immediately. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 11 MR. : Alright. Did you do 12 anything else? 13 MR. THOMAS: Uh. 14 MR. : Other than the chest 15 compressions? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. Soon thereafter there 17 was a whole bunch of staff there. 18 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. About 19 how long were you doing chest compressions for? 20 MR. THOMAS: Um.... I don't - maybe a 21 minute or so. I don't - I can't really recall. 22 MR. : You don't remember. 23 MR. THOMAS: It seemed like the blink of 24 an eye before everybody was around me. 25 MR. : Did he seem like he was EFTA00113813

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 dead at that time? 2 MR. THOMAS: No he didn't. 3 MR. : He actually seemed like 4 he was alive? 5 MR. THOMAS: Well he didn't -. I don't 6 really want to say dead or alive. But he was - 7 I was doing chest compressions. I mean I'm not 8 a doctor so anything like that but I just know 9 I just kept going. I don't know if he was dead 10 or anything at that time. 11 MR. : Did you notice if he had 12 like did you check for a pulse or anything like 13 that? 14 MR. THOMAS: The doctor was there. I know 15 when I was doing chest compressions I didn't 16 stop to check for a pulse. The - I let the 17 medical staff do that because it was somebody 18 from medical doing that. 19 MR. : So how did you know to do 20 chest compressions if you didn't 21 MR. THOMAS: I mean, I don't know if 22 somebody look like they not breathing or 23 anything like that, he's not talking, I'm 24 yelling out his name, he's not -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00113814

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 MR. THOMAS: responding. So. 2 MR. : Did you check for breath? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I did check for breath. 4 Yeah. 5 MR. : So prior to doing chest 6 compressions you checked for breath? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes I checked for breath. 8 Yeah. 9 MR. : And how did you do that? 10 MR. THOMAS: I just when I would go like 11 this I was telling Epstein, like "Yo, Epstein 12 Epstein!" He wasn't breathing. So that's my 13 interpretation of checking. I'm yelling. He's 14 not breathing, he's not calling to me, he's not 15 saying anything. 16 MR. : So I guess what I'm 17 asking is so when -. 18 MR. THOMAS: Did I put my hand over here 19 and check for breath? 20 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 21 MR. THOMAS: No. I did not. 22 MR. : So you didn't like 23 MR. THOMAS: No. I was yelling for his 24 name and everything to see if he was like doing 25 any like that in there. I'm like, "Epstein - EFTA00113815

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 Epstein!" And I'm pushing on his upper torso. 2 MR. : Alright. SO you didn't 3 feel for a pulse or check for breath. 4 MR. THOMAS: No. I didn't do all that 5 stuff. No. 6 MR. : Alright. But you 7 believed he wasn't breathing? 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't believe - I don't 9 know if he was breathing or not. I know he was 10 just hanging, so I was just trying to get him 11 to start. 12 MR. : So you saw him hanging 13 and just your natural reaction then was to -? 14 MR. THOMAS: Absolutely. 15 MR. : So you don't actually 16 know if he was breathing or -? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 18 MR. : You don't know if he was 19 breathing. So you don't know if he was alive 20 or not? 21 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was alive 22 or not. No. 23 MR. : Okay. So just -. 24 Alright. So you didn't actually check for 25 anything. You just went right to chest EFTA00113816

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 compressions. 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes yeah went to chest 3 compressions and yelling. And I wasn't getting 4 no response. 5 MR. : Okay. Did you like hit 6 him or anything first? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. No. Nah. 8 MR. : Like trying to wake him 9 up? 10 MR. THOMAS: I just kept yelling his name. 11 and I'm shaking him and doing chest 12 compressions, that should be enough to wake 13 somebody up for somebody to - "hey, hey" like 14 that and I didn't =. 15 MR. : Did they teach you CPR 16 though? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yes. That's part of the ART. 18 MR. : Did they teach you that 19 prior to doing CPR you're supposed to like 20 check to see if they're alive first? 21 MR. THOMAS: Prior to CPR the standard 22 model is check for airways and everything like 23 that. But in the course of the moment, I 24 didn't slow down and say let me see I check for 25 responsiveness. And that's exactly what I did. EFTA00113817

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 When I'm yelling your name, that's checking for 2 a response. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. THOMAS: I wasn't getting any 5 response. 6 MR. : Okay. No, the only 7 reason I'm going more into details is because 8 you said you weren't sure if he was alive or 9 not. 10 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : Um, um. Alright. 12 MR. THOMAS: I understand. 13 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No. I'm 14 just trying to figure out if there's more 15 questions I need to ask with regard to that -- 16 MR. THOMAS: No problem. 17 MR. : -- specifics. Um. At 18 any time when you were doing chest compressions 19 or any of that, did he ever open his eyes or 20 seem to take a breath or -? 21 MR. THOMAS: Not that I recall. I don't 22 remember really. 23 MR. : Okay. Um. Alright. Did 24 Noel ever enter the cell to assist you? 25 MR. THOMAS: Um, I don't remember. I EFTA00113818

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 remember seeing her. I don't know if she was 2 in the cell. There were so many people in that 3 cell in such a short period of time, so I 4 really don't remember if she was one of the 5 people or not. I can only remember actually 6 two faces at this present time. One is the 7 medical person I can't remember his name and 8 the other one is uh, um, 9 MR. 10 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : How do you spell 12 MR. THOMAS: 13 MR. -: ? Okay. Who is 14 15 MR. THOMAS: Officer. 16 MR. : Just an officer that came 17 in response? 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : And I'm sorry, you may 20 have said this but I don't recall. When you 21 after you did chest compressions, you said you 22 did it for like a minute before they responded. 23 MR. THOMAS: Um, yeah. Maybe about a 24 minute. Nothing more than a minute. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113819

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: It seemed like - 2 MR. : So immediately almost? 3 MR. THOMAS: It seemed like a flash. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. THOMAS: It seemed like a flash that 6 everybody was there inside the room. 7 MR. : Okay. And when they came 8 in what did they do? 9 MR. THOMAS: Uh once the medical staff - 10 uh I can't remember his name. Once he came and 11 was doing chest compressions, I know I got a 12 little exhausted and tired and everything like 13 that. He was doing chest compressions. He put 14 the AED on and um, that's about all I can 15 remember that that guy put the AED on and 16 know he told me to stand back. 17 MR. : Alright. And did you - 18 did he check for breath or a pulse or -? 19 MR. THOMAS: I really can't remember 20 exactly -- 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. THOMAS: -- his and what he did 23 exactly. 24 MR. : Do you know when they put 25 the AED on? Did it ever advise for shock or EFTA00113820

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 anything like that? 2 MR. THOMAS: Uh, I don't remember. 3 MR. : You don't recall? 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 5 MR. : So when they came in, did 6 you stay in the room or at that point -? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I stayed in the room. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: I actually helped to carry 10 him downstairs. 11 MR. : Alright. And was the 12 medical personnel =? 13 MR. THOMAS: He was with us the whole 14 time. 15 MR. : And what was his name? 16 MR. THOMAS: I really can't -. 17 MR. : No? 18 MR. THOMAS: Um. 19 MR. : But he's the one who took 20 over chest compressions? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah he took over chest 22 compressions. He was in the room the while 23 time. 24 MR. : Alright. And you said 25 you were trained on CPR though? EFTA00113821

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. Do you know when 3 the last time you were trained on CPR? 4 MR. THOMAS: Had to be ART. 5 MR. : ART? Are you always 6 every year trained on CPR? 7 MR. THOMAS: Every year at ART there's 8 trainings. 9 MR. : Okay. So like April of 10 2019 would have been the last time? 11 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 12 MR. : Um. Alright. So after 13 medical emergency called, what -? Walk me 14 through that a little bit in detail. What 15 happened? So he came. The medical person 16 comes in. He starts going chest compressions. 17 About how long is he doing them? 18 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't know 19 how long he was doing them before he put the 20 AED on. I couldn't tell you how long he was on 21 before he actually put the AED. Because the 22 AED - right on the -. Right - you see the one 23 right there. In SHU. I know there's one right 24 there on the 9th floor. So I don't know how 25 long ago that he was doing chest compressions EFTA00113822

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 1 before he actually put the AED on. I couldn't 2 tell you a specific time like 30 second. I 3 don't know. 4 MR. : And at that time did you 5 believe that he was alive or dead? 6 MR. THOMAS: I was just I had so many 7 things going through my mind. I was just 8 hoping everything worked out. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. THOMAS: I'm -. 11 MR. : So what was going through 12 your mind at the time? 13 MR. THOMAS: A whole lot. What's going 14 on. There's a man in front of me, you know 15 what I mean. That's it. Just that it's a man 16 in front of me - hanging. I just seen him 17 hanging. 18 MR. : yeah-yeah-yeah. Had you 19 ever had to respond to something like that 20 before? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 22 MR. : So you've actually had to 23 take people off from hanging and things? 24 MR. THOMAS: No. I've responded to like 25 I've maybe seen one other hanging, but they cut EFTA00113823

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 1 him down and like that but he was actually 2 gotten alive when they were (Indiscernible 3 *02:53:33). But yeah, I've seen a few. 4 MR. : Okay. And you have to do 5 the same type of a thing? 6 MR. THOMAS: Well nothing to for where 7 they had to put the AED on a person. Just some 8 chest compressions and they were revived and -. 9 MR. : Anybody else die from it? 10 MR. THOMAS: Not that I would recall. No. 11 MR. : No. Alright. But now 12 you did say you ripped it down. You didn't cut 13 it down. 14 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I just tipped it down. 15 MR. : In the past they've 16 actually cut it down is what you just said? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 18 MR. : Oh. I thought you just 19 said that people were hanging and they cut it 20 down. 21 MR. THOMAS: Maybe if they cut it or if 22 they ripped it down. I don't know. Whatever 23 they had at their disposal at that time. 24 MR. : Okay. Though did you 25 ever have to -? EFTA00113824

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 1 MR. THOMAS: Cut somebody down? No. 2 MR. : Cut somebody -? No? 3 MR. THOMAS: This was my first one. 4 MR. : That was your first time 5 ever being the first responder? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. And do they train 8 you on that? On if you come in and find 9 someone hanging what you're supposed to do? 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember specific 11 training on like that but I know -. If I'm not 12 mistaken, it's life, limb, or something for the 13 bureau or something. I know I'm not supposed 14 to just let somebody sit there and hang. 15 MR. : Yeah-yep. No, I'm just 16 saying like do they teach you how to like 17 respond to these things? 18 MR. THOMAS: I - mm. Maybe it's something 19 in ART training. I don't know. 20 MR. : Okay. So you know CPR 21 was done in ART but you're not sure if it was 22 in response to what -? 23 MR. THOMAS: It's in a particular response 24 to if you see somebody hanging you do this. 25 No. EFTA00113825

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 250 1 MR. : Right. Okay. But is 2 that something that occurs a lot? People 3 inmates hanging themselves at the MCC? 4 MR. THOMAS: Not a lot but you know 5 sometimes people have you don't know what 6 someone else's stressor is or what -- 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. THOMAS: -- they're going through at 9 home. Or what they're in for. 10 MR. : Yeah. I guess what I'm 11 asking is like does this happen like once a 12 week, once a month, or once a year? 13 MR. THOMAS: I've been there for 14 years. 14 He's been there a lot longer than me. Um. 15 I've seen maybe about 7 hangings. 16 MR. : Seven hangings in that? 17 Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : So if you were to 20 estimate about one every two years? 21 MR. THOMAS: If you want to break it down 22 to that. 23 MR. : Okay. What did you do 24 after the medical emergency was called? 25 MR. THOMAS: After I got him down to the - EFTA00113826

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 1 2 MR. : No, I'm sorry. After 3 they responded, what did you do? 4 MR. THOMAS: After they responded, I 5 helped carry him downstairs. 6 MR. : You did help them? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I helped them on the 8 stretcher carry him downstairs. 9 MR. : Now downstairs -. 10 MR. THOMAS: To the second floor. 11 MR. : To the -. 12 MR. THOMAS: To the medical floor. It's 13 the second floor. 14 MR. : So you went all the way 15 from the SHU all the way to the second floor? 16 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. And you were with 18 them the whole time? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I was with them the 20 whole time. And the medical staff was with me. 21 And it was a bunch of other people in the 22 elevator at that time. 23 MR. : And what were you doing 24 during that time? 25 MR. THOMAS: I was holding the stretcher. EFTA00113827

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 252 1 MR. : Because you were one of 2 the people -? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah. 4 MR. : So was it just you and 5 someone else? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Me and three other 7 people holding the stretcher. I don't 8 (Indiscernible *02:56:01) who else was there 9 holding the, staff, help bringing him down. 10 MR. : So it was an actual 11 stretcher that you had to carry, not something 12 that was like moving him? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. It's not a 14 stretcher. They have stretchers on the wall 15 and near like that that you have to carry. You 16 get him to the thing and then you just go. 17 MR. : Did they continue life- 18 saving efforts? 19 MR. THOMAS: The whole time. 20 MR. : So while he was being 21 moved in the stretcher, people were like doing 22 compressions? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Was there anything like 25 on his face trying to give him air or anything EFTA00113828

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 like that? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don't 3 really remember. 4 MR. : Okay. Do you have 5 pictures of that stuff? Yeah. We actually 6 have a ton of pictures. For each 7 (Indiscernible *02:56:48). Do you remember - 8 recall was this like in the -? 9 MR. THOMAS: This is in medical. 10 MR. : That's in medical? 11 MR. THOMAS: It looks like. I don't know 12 if that's - 9th floor. Is that for -? No that 13 says right here. That's EMS. 14 MR. : That's EMS. Alright. So 15 this isn't anything that's in the cell or 16 anything like what we're talking about? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. That's not. No-no-no, 18 that's not. 19 MR. : This is all after the 20 medical? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That's all medical. 22 MR. : Do you know if any 23 pictures were taken while you were doing this 24 medical emergency? 25 MR. THOMAS: I doubt it. I'm sure nobody EFTA00113829

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 254 1 stopped to grab a camera. 2 MR. : Yeah. No. Just because 3 we have all these. 4 MR. THOMAS: And again, I'm not still. I 5 didn't mean nothing by (Indiscernible 6 *02:57:29). 7 MR. : So none of these pictures 8 have anything to do with you? I mean they're 9 not. 10 MR. THOMAS: No. No. I wasn't. 11 MR. : Were you even in the room 12 during that? 13 MR. THOMAS: I wasn't in the room for none 14 of that. 15 MR. : Okay. It doesn't look 16 like we have any pictures of that stuff. But - 17 . So from the SHU all the way down to the 18 second floor, you stay with him. You were 19 carrying the stretcher, and someone was doing 20 compressions. 21 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : And trying to revive him. 23 MR. THOMAS: So you said that 24 responded and a medical personnel. 25 MR. THOMAS: I remember seeing and EFTA00113830

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 255 1 medical persons. It was - I'm sure the 2 lieutenant was there. That's just -. 3 MR. : Do you remember who the 4 lieutenant was? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. I can't remember who was 6 there. 7 MR. : Does Lieutenant 8 sound familiar? Does that make or help 9 you recall? 10 MR. THOMAS: MR. THOMAS: I mean maybe 11 maybe was there. I don't -. 12 MR. : So we can go back to that 13 duty agent roster. 14 MR. THOMAS: It shows that he came on in 15 the morning. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. THOMAS: But you know that two hour 18 prior but he probably was there. 19 MR. : So you think it was 20 probably him? And do you remember making any 21 statements after the medical emergency ride? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember what I said. 23 I could have been saying a whole lot. I mean 24 like I said, I just seen a man hanging. 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00113831

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 MR. THOMAS: You know, I don't remember 2 exactly verbatim what I said or anything. 3 MR. : Do you recall Noel saying 4 we didn't do our rounds at 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 5 a.m.? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall her saying 7 that. 8 MR. : Alright. 9 MR. THOMAS: I was (Indiscernible 10 *02:58:49) . I don't remember seeing Noel after 11 this actually. After I carried him downstairs, 12 I don't even remember seeing Noel. 13 MR. : Do you recall saying to 14 Noel that we didn't do the rounds. We messed - 15 . Or - hold on. Did you say that it was not 16 Noel's fault and say we didn't do the rounds? 17 We messed up. 18 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember saying that. 19 I could have said it. I don't remember saying 20 it. 21 MR. : So you don't remember 22 saying it's not her fault. 23 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't remember saying 24 anything. I could have said -. Like I said I 25 don't know what I said exactly from that time. EFTA00113832

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r - 1 It was three years ago. But -. 2 MR. : Alright. So my only 3 question was so that's the statement we have is 4 that you stated she said we didn't do the 5 rounds. And you said we didn't do the rounds. 6 We messed up. It's not Noel's fault. And I 7 was just wondering why you would say that it 8 wasn't her fault. 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't. 10 MR. : Do you remember like -? 11 MR. THOMAS: I really don't. I really 12 don't. 13 MR. : Yeah. You were just 14 uttering things. 15 MR. THOMAS: Just uttering things like I 16 said. I don't remember saying that. I don't 17 remember not saying it. I don't remember when 18 that was said or who said that I said that. 19 Like I said I don't remember saying that. 20 MR. : Okay. So it wasn't like 21 -. The only reason that I asked is that, it 22 sounds like you were taking responsibility for 23 the rounds and counts. And I was just wanting 24 to know if there was a reason why you would 25 have been taking responsibility. Like we said, EFTA00113833

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 1 you're both responsible. I don't know why you 2 would -- 3 MR. THOMAS: (Indiscernible *03:00:03) 4 MR. : -- take responsibility 5 over her in saying it's not her fault? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't know why I said 7 anything like that if I said it. 8 MR. : You don't know. 9 MR. THOMAS: Like I said, I don't remember 10 saying it. 11 MR. : Okay. Um. 12 MR. THOMAS: There was a lot going on. I 13 really -. 14 MR. : Alright. So what is your 15 understanding of how Epstein died? 16 MR. THOMAS: Um, it's been two years. He 17 died from a hanging. 18 MR. : So do you believe he died 19 from hanging? Do you believe he died from 20 someone trying to murder - or someone hurting 21 him? Do you believe that he died from the 22 medical response? 23 MR. THOMAS: I'm not a medical 24 professional. I don't know. I've seen so many 25 things and I'm faced with so many things. They EFTA00113834

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 1 just said that he died from a hanging. 2 MR. : And being the first 3 responder to the person in there. Do you 4 believe that is how he died now? Because you 5 said, again, previously when I was asking you 6 said I don't know if he was alive or dead. Do 7 you believe he did die from hanging? 8 MR. THOMAS: I never believe he died. I 9 don't believe the conspiracy that somebody 10 snuck into the jail catapulted -. 11 MR. MITCHELL: Just answer the questions - 12 13 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 14 MR. MITCHELL: -- yes or no. 15 MR. THOMAS: Oh. No. I mean yes, I 16 believe he died from hanging. 17 MR. : You do believe he died 18 hanging. Alright. And do you believe that 19 Epstein took his own life? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 21 MR. : Did anyone else take 22 Epstein's life? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : No? Did anyone assist 25 Epstein in taking his life? EFTA00113835

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 MR. THOMAS: Ah, no. 2 MR. : Um, did Noel take 3 Epstein's life? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : These are questions that 6 we just have to ask because you guys are the 7 first to be there and you guys were the ones on 8 duty. 9 MR. THOMAS: I'm here with you. 10 MR. : Did Noel assist Epstein 11 with taking his life? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : Did you assist Epstein 14 with taking his life? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : Did you take Epstein's 17 life? 18 MR. THOMAS: No. 19 MR. : Did you have any part in 20 Epstein's death? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. 22 MR. : Prior to Epstein dying, 23 did you have any communication - verbal, 24 electronic, handwritten, or otherwise with 25 anyone - BOP staff members or otherwise -. So EFTA00113836

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 1 civilians, inmates, anybody - about the safety 2 and wellbeing of Epstein? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 MR. : Prior to Epstein dying, 5 did you have any communications - verbal, 6 electronic, handwritten, or otherwise - with 7 anyone - - BOP staff members or otherwise -. 8 So civilians, inmates, anybody - about the 9 death of Epstein or taking Epstein's life? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 MR. : Did anyone ever offer you 12 anything, such as something of value or favors, 13 with regard to harming Epstein or taking his 14 life? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : Did anyone ever threaten 17 you in exchange for harming Epstein or taking 18 Epstein's life? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 MR. : Were any of your family 21 members? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. Absolutely not. 23 MR. : So now we're getting more 24 back into the administrative stuff. Why wasn't 25 Epstein in his assigned cell on August 10, EFTA00113837

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 262 1 2019? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 3 MR. : Are cell rotations - do 4 they occur with inmates in the SHU? That you 5 have to move them ever certain amount of days? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Alright. Who is 8 responsible? 9 MR. THOMAS: That's the SHU lieutenants. 10 MR. : That falls on the SHU 11 lieutenant? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yeah from the SHU lieutenant. 13 Well it falls on the SHU lieutenant to pass 14 down to the staff members when they're going to 15 do cell rotations or anything like that. 16 MR. : Alright. 17 MR. THOMAS: It's something that's 18 tracked. If I'm not mistaken, it might be 19 tracked computerly. I don't know. 20 MR. : That so -. In the 21 computer, who is responsible for making that 22 change in the computer? 23 MR. THOMAS: Oh I don't know. 24 MR. : Did you know Epstein was 25 not in his assigned cell? EFTA00113838

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 263 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : So this is the first 3 you're hearing that? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 5 MR. : Alright. Is that 6 something that you guys are supposed to monitor 7 or do when you're in the SHU during your 8 assignment? Are you supposed to make sure that 9 inmates are in their assigned cells? 10 MR. THOMAS: When I come on at 12:00, 11 that's all taken care of from - you don't move 12 anybody at 12:00 at midnight. 13 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I just 14 didn't know if that's something that you guys 15 are supposed to like pay attention to. Like 16 alright, this guys is supposed to be in this 17 cell. This guy's supposed to be in that cell. 18 MR. THOMAS: It's 70-something inmates or 19 something. If 15 inmates come down on short 20 staff and they got to move, maybe all 15 won't 21 get done, so maybe somebody is in a 21-day 22 rotation, they're probably laid over for like 23 five or whatever couple days. But I don't know 24 as far as you're going by cell rotation and oh 25 his cell rotations is up 21 days and he wasn't EFTA00113839

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 1 moved there and he was in the wrong cell. 2 don't know that. I don't know. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. THOMAS: Like I said, I'm not custody. 5 I wouldn't deal with all that. 6 MR. : Okay. So who - I'm 7 assuming it's the officers who actually move 8 them physically to different cells? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 10 MR. : Who goes into the system 11 and changes it in that BOP database? Would 12 that also be the officers? 13 MR. THOMAS: Officers or the operations 14 or the SHU lieutenant. 15 MR. : Okay. But that is 16 nothing that's done at that 12:00 a.m. to - 17 MR. THOMAS: That is nothing that's done 18 at 12:00 a.m. No it's not. 19 MR. : Alright. Do you know why 20 pill bottles were found within Epstein's cell? 21 MR. THOMAS: No I do not. 22 MR. : It's - are they - inmates 23 allowed to have medication within their cells? 24 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure some are allowed. 25 Yes. EFTA00113840

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 1 MR. : They are allowed? 2 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure that some are 3 allowed medications. I don't know what 4 medications they need or anything like that. 5 MR. : Do you recall ever seeing 6 - here's a picture I'm showing you with 7 medication that was in Epstein's cell. Do you 8 recall seeing this? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. 10 MR. : Does that look like 11 something that he would be authorized to have 12 with that much medication? 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't know what they are. 14 I don't know what they're authorized and what 15 they're not authorized. 16 MR. : Okay. Just because 17 showed it to you, can you do you mind just 18 initialing and dating it? 19 MR. THOMAS: I'm sorry. I keep closing 20 this. 21 MR. : Nah, no worries. And so 22 you don't know anything about like policies are 23 related to what they're authorized or not 24 authorized -? 25 MR. THOMAS: As far as that? No. EFTA00113841

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 1 MR. : Would that be up to like 2 medical? 3 MR. THOMAS: Medical. Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. Are you familiar 5 just in general, non-medical related, what 6 inmates are authorized and not authorized -? 7 MR. THOMAS: No I'm not. 8 MR. : You're not even familiar 9 with -- 10 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 11 MR. : -- what they can and 12 can't have in their cells? 13 MR. THOMAS: No I'm not. No. 14 MR. : Do you know if the SHU is 15 any different than the rest of the institution 16 of what inmates can and cannot have in their 17 cell? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Absolutely. I'm sure 19 it's if (Indiscernible *03:06:02) different I 20 don't know though because I'm sure it's 21 different because that's the 23 on 1 so I'm 22 sure it's different from a regular housing unit 23 on there to walk around. 24 MR. : What's 23 on 1 now? 25 MR. THOMAS: They're locked down 23 hours EFTA00113842

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 1 a day == 2 MR. : oh. 3 MR. THOMAS: and then 1 hour is rec. 4 MR. : Um but as far as what 5 they're allowed to have in their cells. 6 MR. THOMAS: No I don't know the book 7 version of what they're allowed and what 8 they're not allowed. 9 MR. : So do you know of other 10 inmates are allowed to have medications in 11 their cell at this time? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 13 MR. : You don't know. How many 14 changes of clothing and linens are allowed in 15 inmates' cells within the SHU? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 17 MR. : You don't know. 18 MR. THOMAS: That's something that would 19 be done prior to my shift. 20 MR. : Sure. So does this look 21 like an exorbitant amount of closing and linens 22 that are in Mr. Epstein's cell in these 23 pictures? 24 MR. THOMAS: It looks like a lot um, but 25 that could have just been -. I don't know what EFTA00113843

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 1 that's from the previous inmate that's left 2 over that they didn't take his stuff. like 3 again, I don't know. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. THOMAS: The inmate that left, they 6 didn't take his linen or not. And you can't 7 tell from these pictures which is ripped up and 8 what is not ripped up is. Most inmates will 9 get a bed sheet, rip it up, and put it up as 10 all types of stuff that goes on. But I don't 11 know if that's something doing or not. It has 12 to be broken down to alright, this is seven 13 sheets. And if I have seven sheets or 14 something like that then yes that's excessive. 15 But other than that, I don't know what they're 16 supposed to have within - what they're not 17 supposed to have, one sheet, one -. I really 18 don't know. 19 MR. : Is it supposed to be a 20 one-for-one exchange? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yes. It's a one-for-one 22 exchange. 23 MR. : So they're only 24 technically supposed to have one -. 25 MR. THOMAS: It's two sheets one blanket I EFTA00113844

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 1 think it is. Or one blanket, one sheet, and 2 one towel and one washcloth. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. THOMAS: And I can't remember the full 5 thing. 6 MR. : And do you -? 7 MR. THOMAS: That's not something that 8 happens on morning watch. That's something 9 that happens prior to the morning watch when I 10 stayed there from 12:00 to 1:00. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: That's not something I have. 13 12:00 to 1:00 you don't take the inmates out. 14 MR. : Sure. So - 15 MR. : And I don't know and you 16 don't give them anything unless somebody's 17 coming in off the street. It's already pre-bed 18 was made that you're giving to them to put this 19 over here. And usually they try to put them on 20 G tier, single cell until they can find out 21 what their affiliation is or anything like 22 that. 23 MR. : Okay. But to you though, 24 if there's one person in that cell, does that 25 look like it's too much linen and too much EFTA00113845

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 1 clothing? 2 MR. THOMAS: Like again, I can't tell 3 what's ripped up and what's not ripped up. 4 MR. : Okay. But -. Okay. Do 5 you mind just initialing and dating these? 6 MR. : I've just got a question. 7 Did the cell look like that when you walked in? 8 MR. THOMAS: Uh, I don't remember the 9 clothes and stuff being on the floor. I don't 10 remember that much linen being on the floor. 11 just remember -. Honestly I couldn't tell you 12 what's there so I just remember him hanging on 13 this side. 14 MR. MITCHELL: Break's already 15 (Indiscernible *03:08:48) 16 MR. : Push pause? Alright. 17 We're being asked to take a break. It is 18 currently -- 19 MR. THOMAS: 1:26. Oops. 20 MR. : 1:26 p.m. This is 21 Senior Special Agent and I am 22 pushing pause on the recorder. [Whereupon, the 23 above-entitled matter went off the record and 24 went back on the record.] Alright. The 25 recorder is back on. It is 1:38 p.m. on June EFTA00113846

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 17, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 2 We are resuming the interview. I 3 just remind you it is a voluntary interview and 4 you are under oath. Alright. So where we left 5 off was we were talking about the linens. 6 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 7 MR. : And we were showing you 8 the pictures. 9 MR. THOMAS: Absolutely. 10 MR. : Did you provide Epstein 11 with any additional clothing or linens? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : Ever? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 MR. : No. Is that anything 16 that would typically happen between the hours 17 that you work? 18 MR. THOMAS: No. 19 MR. : 12:00 to 8:00 a.m.? 20 MR. THOMAS: No. 21 MR. : Okay. Is providing 22 inmates with extra clothing and linens a 23 security risk? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't -. I 25 don't know if it's a security risk or anything EFTA00113847

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 272 1 like that because I know when -. I don't know. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 4 MR. : And when - we touched on 5 this but when inmates are provided linens, is 6 it supposed to be a one-for-one exchange? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 8 MR. : Alright. And is that 9 typically what they are utilizing in order to 10 do things like hang themselves? 11 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I really don't 12 know what's the typical thing. 13 MR. : That's what they used in 14 this case though it appears? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah that's what it appears 16 in this case. You see the sheet or a shirt. 17 don't know what it is. 18 MR. : Okay. And somebody on 19 suicide watch. Do you think it's abnormal? 20 Again, you didn't provide the linens. But do 21 you think that's abnormal if he had extra 22 linens if he was someone that was just on 23 suicide watch? Or a -? 24 MR. THOMAS: It's not abnormal for someone 25 to have extra linen and -. EFTA00113848

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : It's not? 2 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 3 MR. : So is that a -? If it's 4 supposed to be a one-for-one exchange is that 5 like a constant problem then at the MCC? 6 MR. THOMAS: In a perfect world. In a 7 perfect world it couldn't be but I like I said, 8 I'm not custody. I'm not always up there like 9 that. And when, as you can see, all the linen 10 and that stuff is already done. 11 MR. : Okay. And again, we 12 talked about his briefly. But what material 13 was used to take Epstein's life in August 2019? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't know what is that a 15 sheet or a shirt? I don't know exactly what it 16 is. 17 MR. : This orange cotton which 18 could be either -- 19 MR. THOMAS: A sheet or a shirt. 20 MR. : -- a sheet or a shirt . 21 Okay. 22 MR. THOMAS: A sheet or a shirt. 23 MR. : Does this appear to be 24 what it was that removed from Mr. Epstein? 25 MR. THOMAS: It appears to be. Yes. EFTA00113849

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 274 1 MR. : Okay. Can you just walk 2 me through? Like this thing specifically looks 3 like it's still intact. 4 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : Did you have to rip it 6 off or slide it over his head? 7 MR. THOMAS: No, not -. What are you 8 talking about was this still intact? Yeah. I 9 took that off his head. I guess I took it off 10 his head. I don't remember I did, but I guess 11 I took it off him. But like I said when I 12 ripped it, it was tied to the other portion of 13 it. 14 MR. : Okay. So maybe -. 15 MR. THOMAS: That's what I mean when I 16 ripped it off, like that just when I just 17 pulled it off. 18 MR. : Okay. So maybe it could 19 have also been possible was that this part 20 that's what was actually connected and this is 21 the part that you possibly ripped? 22 MR. THOMAS: Just pushed off. Yeah like 23 that. It probably just slipped through or 24 whatever the case be through that. 25 MR. : Okay. But um so you EFTA00113850

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 1 ripped it. You said you ripped it off. 2 MR. THOMAS: Yeah ripped it. I just 3 ripped it from the piece that's still dangling. 4 MR. : You don't recall actually 5 sliding it? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. If it's 7 still intact, maybe it did. I don't recall 8 taking it off but -- 9 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah, and 10 again, I don't know that that was what was 11 actually around his neck. 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 13 MR. : But that does appear to 14 be probably what was around his neck? 15 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 16 MR. : Is that correct? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 18 MR. : You're not exactly sure. 19 MR. THOMAS: I'm not exactly sure. 20 MR. : But does that look like 21 something like what you recall when you did 22 take if off of him? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 MR. : Alright. Just because I 25 showed it, you want to just initial and date. EFTA00113851

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 1 , you had a couple of follow-up 2 questions. Can you do that now? 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : With regard to when you 5 conducted the (Indiscernible 6 MR. THOMAS: No problem. 7 MR. : Well he -. Agent just 8 mentioned it too. So you walked in. And 1 9 Epstein to your right or your left? 10 MR. THOMAS: My right. 11 MR. : Okay. And when you see him, 12 right. Is he hanging? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 14 MR. : And where was in comparison 15 to this - sorry. In comparison to this 16 picture, whereabouts what his head? 17 MR. THOMAS: Maybe a little bit below the 18 circle. Maybe about right here I guess. I 19 don't -. I can't remember exactly or maybe a 20 little bit below the circle. 21 MR. : And was his whole body on the 22 floor? Was his butt on the floor? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : What part of his body was on 25 the floor? EFTA00113852

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall what was on 2 the floor. I don't think anything was on the 3 floor. I don't really remember. 4 MR. : Was his legs on the floor? 5 Feet on the floor? 6 MR. THOMAS: Well I'm going to say his 7 feet was on the floor? 8 MR. : You would assume because 9 it doesn't look that high. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Because it doesn't' 11 have the - yeah. 12 MR. : So you think his feet 13 were on the floor? 14 MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember 15 exactly. But I mean I would assume his feet 16 was on the floor. 17 MR. : So when you saw the - now see 18 there's a knot on the noose right here. What 19 part of the neck was the knot on? Like when 20 you see it, did you try to loosen it or tried 21 to take it off, what part of the neck was that 22 on? Do you recall at all? 23 MR. THOMAS: I really don't. I really 24 don't. 25 MR. : And when you pulled it. It EFTA00113853

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 1 looks like there's a portion left back on here. 2 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : Was that attached to this? 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. like he said, he 5 said that was the portion that -. like I said, 6 when I remember ripping all that down, I don't 7 know if I just if it slipped through or 8 whatever the case may be. I just remember 9 going like this and he going to the ground. 10 And then we started doing chest compressions. 11 MR. : And he came off easily? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes he came off easily. It 13 didn't come off too hard. 14 MR. : And you don't recall trying 15 to -? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall taking the 17 noose off. I really don't. I don't recall 18 taking the thing from around his neck. 19 MR. : Do you remember if the linen 20 ripped so it's separated from this or if this 21 is possibly the same thing as that? Do you 22 recall when you ripped it. Do you remember if 23 it like tore and broke and came into two 24 separate pieces? 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't. EFTA00113854

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 1 MR. : No? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 3 MR. : So when you looked into his 4 cell. Was the lights on and stuff? 5 MR. THOMAS: I want to say the lights was 6 on. I think the lights was on. 7 MR. : Okay. You knocked on the 8 cell. And he didn't answer. So you had to 9 open it? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 11 MR. : Do you recall actually 12 opening the - turning the key to open the cell 13 or was the cell already open? 14 MR. THOMAS: Nah. The cell was - I had to 15 open the cell. 16 MR. : Okay. And you walked in. 17 You saw this. Now I want to - in this picture, 18 I saw something. This picture right here. The 19 one you initialed. You see the mattress on the 20 floor? 21 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 22 MR. : Was that on the floor when 23 you walked in? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. I don't 25 know. EFTA00113855

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 280 1 MR. : Because he would have been 2 technically he would have been laying here, 3 right? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, he's off to -- 5 MR. : On the right side? 6 MR. THOMAS: -- the side. Yeah, you can't 7 see the -. You can't see this side right here. 8 But he's off to this side. 9 MR. : And -. 10 MR. THOMAS: Because there's a lip like 11 you said there's a lip right here is covering 12 that side of the wall. 13 MR. : And this mattress. Where 14 does that belong. Up here on top? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If that one's on the 16 floor yeah, that belongs on the top. 17 MR. : And you don't recall all of 18 this laying around or anything? 19 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. No I don't. 20 MR. : We're just trying to get an 21 idea. Was the cell a mess or anything like 22 that? 23 MR. THOMAS: It could be a totally 24 different things because I've seen inmates like 25 it looked like that and they mattress on the EFTA00113856

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 floor. Some inmates sleep on the floor. Just 2 because it's a bunkbed, they don't have to 3 sleep on the top. Some people just sleep on 4 the floor. And then. I mean, I'm just saying 5 because all that stuff was up top there, maybe 6 he just slept on the floor. I don't know. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Alright. Now we're going 9 back to the linens. 10 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : Was Epstein given any 12 special privileges to have extra clothing? Or 13 linens? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 15 MR. : You're not sure. If he 16 was, what shift would typically take care of 17 that. 18 MR. THOMAS: It could be day watch or 19 evening watch. 20 MR. : So either of the two 21 other shifts? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 23 MR. : Okay. Was - do you know 24 if anything was in Epstein's cell that should 25 not have been in there? EFTA00113857

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 2 MR. : Can you tell me a little 3 bit about cell searches and how they work in 4 the SHU? 5 MR. THOMAS: Um.... They usually conduct 6 it on the day shift. Because that's when most 7 people are around just in case you have an 8 uncooperative inmate. And you check the cell 9 for contraband. Contraband can be anywhere 10 from a leftover tray being in there to too much 11 papers. Inmates who get mail, too many papers 12 left in there which is called nuisance trash. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: But it all depends on anybody 15 else. Who is conducting it. 16 MR. : And this isn't regarding 17 your specific shift. I mean it discussed your 18 shift, but for cell searches this shows it's 19 the MCC New York Special Post Order Special 20 Housing Unit. For here it says, "All SHU staff 21 are expected to conduct searches of the special 22 housing unit. The morning watch officer will 23 conduct searches of the common areas and 24 document their findings in the search section 25 of the TruScape program. The day watch EFTA00113858

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 officers will conduct a search of every 2 inmate's cell who attends recreation. The 3 evening watch officers will conduct a minimum 4 of five cell searches during their shift. The 5 entire special housing unit will be searched 6 each and every week." Um, do you know, is that 7 your understanding of what the policy is? 8 MR. THOMAS: Uh, yes. 9 MR. : Do you know if the other 10 - if MCC was following this policy? The 11 officers that were assigned. Were they 12 actually conducting -- ? 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't know. 14 I don't know. 15 MR. : Um do you have any 16 knowledge of anybody conducting cell searches 17 in the SHU? 18 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure that they do. like 19 I said, I'm not custody up there during the day 20 and during the evening, so I don't know what 21 their - what time and no specific time when 22 those have to be done. So I don't know. 23 MR. : Alright. And again, just 24 because I showed it to you. Do you mind just 25 initialing page 5 of 14 on the uh special post EFTA00113859

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 orders for the SHU? Do you know of any 2 interactions that Epstein had with other 3 inmates? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : No. And you said the 6 last time that you interacted with Epstein was 7 when you fed him the morning before? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 9 MR. : And I apologize now it 10 was so many hours ago, what was his state of 11 mind? At the time? Could you tell? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : Did he seem unusual? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 MR. : No? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 17 MR. : Did it at all strike you 18 that maybe he was getting ready to kill himself 19 or anything? 20 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. No. 21 MR. : In distress? No? Did he 22 complain about anything? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : Did you talk with him at 25 all? EFTA00113860

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 285 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : You didn't say good 3 morning or anything? 4 MR. THOMAS: If I did, I don't remember. 5 If I did say, here's your tray. 6 MR. : Do you know of any 7 threats that were made to Epstein? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. 9 MR. : Do you know why Epstein 10 was in prison? 11 MR. THOMAS: Now I do, yes. 12 MR. : Did you at the time? 13 MR. THOMAS: I really didn't know who 14 Epstein was. 15 MR. : You didn't? 16 MR. THOMAS: Or the stipulations behind 17 everything behind him. No. 18 MR. : Alright. So at the time, 19 did you have any specific feelings in regard to 20 21 MR. THOMAS: No. 22 MR. : -- Epstein? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : No? Did you speak about 25 Epstein with other inmates? EFTA00113861

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 1 MR. THOMAS: No 2 MR. : No. When the medical 3 emergency was discovered, do you believe that 4 you and Noel acted appropriately per BOP 5 policy? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Were you and/or Noel 8 supposed to take immediate action or should 9 have you waited for responding staff? 10 MR. THOMAS: I think we're supposed to 11 take immediate action. 12 MR. : Okay. Did BOP policy say 13 that you should have called a lieutenant and 14 wait for their arrival prior to entering 15 Epstein's cell? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't know what the policy 17 says. 18 MR. : Yeah-yeah. So is it -? 19 Have you ever been taught that like it could be 20 a ruse and if you go in there by yourself 21 without responding staff, they could then 22 overtake you and then potentially have you as a 23 hostage? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I've heard that. I've 25 heard that before. But then I've always heard EFTA00113862

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 287 1 it has to be two staff members to one inmate. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. THOMAS: And me and Noel was there. 4 So. 5 MR. : Okay. So you believe 6 because Noel was there you followed the policy? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: I'm not worried about. 10 MR. : So you said that after 11 the medical emergency, you actually went down 12 with them to the second floor. Did anything 13 happen with Epstein's body on the way? Did you 14 guys like drop the stretcher 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : -- or anything like that? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. 18 MR. : He remained - his body 19 maintained? What about when you were getting 20 him on to the stretcher? Was he - did he do a 21 smooth transition from the floor up to the 22 stretcher? 23 MR. THOMAS: As far as I can remember. 24 don't really recall directly, but -- 25 MR. : You don't remember EFTA00113863

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 1 MR. THOMAS: -- I don't think it was any 2 different. 3 MR. : -- him dropping or 4 landing -- 5 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't 6 MR. : -- on anything like that? 7 MR. THOMAS: remember any of that. 8 MR. : What about when he was 9 going from the stretcher to whatever they put 10 they put him on when you got to the second 11 floor? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, once we got to the 13 second floor and he got into the room, I was 14 hands-off though. There were so many other 15 people around, I didn't - I wasn't part of 16 that. 17 MR. : And did you leave at that 18 time? Leave that room? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I left that room at that 20 time. 21 MR. : Where did you go? And 22 what did you do? 23 MR. THOMAS: Um....um.... I don't 24 remember exactly where I went. I think I went 25 to my office and then I stepped outside. EFTA00113864

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 1 MR. : Okay. Did any 2 supervisors or staff talk to you about the 3 incident? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : No? Did you make any 6 statements to anyone? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 MR. : Did you sign any 9 paperwork? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 MR. : What time did your shift 12 end? 13 MR. THOMAS: Right after that incident. 14 MR. : Okay. So what time did 15 you depart the MCC approximately? 16 MR. THOMAS: I, uh, maybe about 9:30-ish I 17 guess. 18 MR. : Alright. So it happened 19 at like 6:33, but you did stay until -? 20 MR. THOMAS: No, I stayed until because 21 about 8 - let's say about 8:00 something 22 because when I was trying to leave and go home, 23 I kept getting calls of course from everybody 24 then and then um, uh, and the warden called me. 25 And told me he was just concerned about me EFTA00113865

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 1 because of what I've seen and me being 2 traumatized and so he sent somebody to come 3 talk to me and they met me further down from 4 the thing to come talk to me. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. THOMAS: Somebody from the crisis 7 support team -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: --came to talk to me. 10 MR. : Alright. So probably 11 around 8-ish is when you're thinking? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, about 8-ish or so. 13 MR. : Okay. Did you handle or 14 touch any of Epstein's files or paperwork on -- 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : -- August 10, 2019? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. 18 MR. : During your shift, would 19 you - do you ever 20 MR. THOMAS: No. 21 MR. : -- handle any files? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. They're in their 23 sleeping. No, we don't touch any of those. 24 MR. : Uh.... 25 MR. THOMAS: You're talking about any EFTA00113866

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291 1 files inside his cell? 2 MR. : No, the files that you 3 guys have that you maintain for the inmates. 4 MR. THOMAS: No, I didn't touch any of 5 those things. 6 MR. : I think they are called 7 292s or something. 8 MR. THOMAS: Oh yeah. No, I didn't touch 9 any of those things. 10 MR. : And do you ever touch 11 them during your shifts? 12 MR. THOMAS: During a shift? No. 13 MR. : No? 14 MR. THOMAS: Well excuse me. Let me 15 change that. After you finish feeding, you 16 mark that you fed everybody. But that's not a 17 paperwork thing, I think - if I'm not mistaken 18 that's done on the computer. 19 MR. : Okay. So that's not 20 something you do -- 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 22 MR. : -- like on August 9th, 23 you wouldn't have gone into Epstein's file? 24 MR. THOMAS: No. 25 MR. : Have you ever seen EFTA00113867

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Epstein's file? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 MR. : No? Do you know anybody 4 that did potentially remove files from 5 Epstein's files? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 MR. : Do you know that anybody 8 that went back into the SHU and removed any 9 like tags or documents or -? 10 MR. THOMAS: I was gone. I don't know. 11 MR. : Okay. But did you remove 12 anything from the office? 13 MR. THOMAS: I didn't remove any. No. 14 MR. : No? 15 MR. : Can I ask, do you know where 16 the file is kept? 17 MR. THOMAS: Ah, no. 18 MR. : And so you never removed 19 or destroyed any of Epstein's paperwork? 20 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. 21 MR. : And you never removed or 22 destroyed any signs related to Epstein? 23 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. 24 MR. : That were up in the SHU? 25 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. EFTA00113868

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 293 1 MR. : Um, did you ever access 2 any BOP databases such as BOPWARE, Sentry, 3 TruView, after Epstein was discovered on August 4 10th? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. I haven't been back to 6 that institution. No. 7 MR. : No? And you can only 8 access that from the institution? 9 MR. THOMAS: Exactly. 10 MR. : Did you ever discuss 11 anyone altering any documents? 12 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. 13 MR. : Removing any documents? 14 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. 15 MR. : Accessing any BOP 16 databases? 17 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. 18 MR. : No. Did anyone tell you 19 that they -? 20 MR. THOMAS: No, they did not. 21 MR. : -- destroyed anything? 22 MR. THOMAS: No, they did not. 23 MR. : Moved anything? 24 MR. THOMAS: No, sir. 25 MR. : Or access to any EFTA00113869

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 ' 1 databases? 2 MR. THOMAS: No, sir. 3 MR. : Have you reported for any 4 shifts following August 10, 2019? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. 6 MR. : No. Were you placed on 7 administrative leave? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 9 MR. : By whom? 10 MR. THOMAS: Whoever is in charge. I 11 can't remember what my letter says. It's the 12 warden I guess. 13 MR. : So they didn't speak to 14 you directly? 15 MR. THOMAS: Um, no. I got a letter in 16 the mail. 17 MR. : And that's how they 18 informed you? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. What did the 21 letter say? 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm placed on administrative 23 leave pretty much. 24 MR. : Oh. 25 MR. THOMAS: And a whole bunch of pending EFTA00113870

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 295 1 something. I can't remember exact lettering 2 wording that they said. 3 MR. : Okay. And is that what 4 you remain on now? Administrative leave? 5 MR. THOMAS: Um, no. I'm on 6 MR. : Indefinite suspension? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 8 MR. : Did you communicate with 9 Noel after Epstein's body was discovered? 10 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 11 MR. : So you have not 12 communicated with her since? 13 MR. THOMAS: Uh, besides one time we had a 14 sit-down and talk after the case was over. 15 Well after the um, the thing, we just had a 16 union meeting. That was it. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: And she did come there and 19 that type of thing. But we didn't discuss the 20 case. 21 MR. : You didn't discuss the 22 case? 23 MR. THOMAS: No, we did not. 24 MR. : Okay. So who from the 25 MCC have you communicated with regarding EFTA00113871

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 296 1 Epstein's incident on August 10th? 2 MR. THOMAS: Nobody. 3 MR. : No one? 4 MR. THOMAS: Nobody. 5 MR. : I'm assuming aside from 6 your union representative? 7 MR. THOMAS: Well I just actually just 8 started to him more often. But yeah. 9 MR. : Okay. So he would be the 10 only one? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Him. The union 12 president. 13 MR. : Okay. Can 10 S - and 14 this is something that I just thought of when 15 you just took a break - something that I 16 realized I didn't ask. Can 10 South obtain 17 access to the SHU? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 19 MR. : And can they do that 20 without anyone allowing them to enter? 21 MR. THOMAS: No-no. You're talking about 22 from the outside? No. 23 MR. : So 24 MR. THOMAS: They have to come through the 25 SHU to get to 10 South. There's no other way EFTA00113872

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 297 1 from anybody from the outside or from any other 2 part in the institution to get the SHU besides 3 from the outer door. 4 MR. : Okay. So could have - 5 could have anyone from 10 South accessed the 6 SHU without you or Noel being -? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 MR. : No? And can you just 9 show who was in 10 South when you were there? 10 Can you show me on the Daily Assignment Roster? 11 So who would have been in 10 South when you 12 guys were there? 13 MR. THOMAS: . I. 14 MR. : And do you remember if. 15 visited the SHU at any time? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 17 MR. : Would have they been the 18 closest unit to you though? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. But you don't 21 recall if -? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall (Indiscernible 23 *03:26:38) 24 MR. : Okay. And for feeding or 25 any counts or anything like that, did you guys EFTA00113873

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 298 1 - would you typically interact? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Well if they just for 3 the count to help them count. 4 MR. : Okay. Would that - would 5 he personally -? What time would he be on too? 6 Same shift as you? Until 8:00 a.m.? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Same shift. 8 MR. : Would he possibly be the 9 person that showed up at 5:30 a.m. in the SHU? 10 MR. THOMAS: No because he was on for the 11 morning watch. If he was on there from 12:00 12 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. 13 MR. : Alright. But you don't 14 recall -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Somebody coming in at 5:30? 16 MR. : -- who showed up at 5:30 17 a.m.? 18 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't recall anybody 19 coming in at 5:30. 20 MR. : Okay. So 4:00 a.m. was 21 Lieutenant but you don't remember 22 anybody at 5:30 a.m.? 23 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't remember anybody 24 at 5:30 a.m. 25 MR. : Alright. But there's no EFTA00113874

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 299 1 -. You were there and there's no way that 2 anyone could have accessed the SHU aside from 3 4 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, nobody -. 5 MR. : -- Noel or you allowing 6 them to get in? 7 MR. THOMAS: To allow them to get in. 8 Yeah. 9 MR. : Okay. And you said 10 Epstein's cell was locked when you -- 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 MR. : -- went there? And when 13 you did find him and rip the thing off, did you 14 notice that his body was either cold or warm? 15 MR. THOMAS: I didn't notice. 16 MR. : You didn't notice that? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. 18 MR. : Is there anything that 19 I'm missing? Anything you want to add to this? 20 MR. THOMAS: Um, I don't. I guess I'm not 21 well-versed in -. No. 22 MR. : Please, well-versed in 23 what? 24 MR. THOMAS: Well-versed in the policy or 25 anything, but no, I have nothing to add. EFTA00113875

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30C 1 MR. : Okay. , would you 2 like to -? 3 MR. : I just have a few follow-up 4 questions. 5 MR. THOMAS: Sure. 6 MR. : When we showed you that email 7 from . You said that you've seen 8 that before. Right? 9 MR. THOMAS: I said I've seen that before? 10 MR. : Is that - not that email 11 specifically. But you've seen that type of 12 email sent out from psych before. 13 MR. THOMAS: I said I've seen that type of 14 email that you know I thought I didn't read 15 the top of the email because some of them just 16 say MYM all staff. Because they say all staff 17 and it's sent out to everybody. 18 MR. : Is it normally sent out to 19 everyone? 20 MR. THOMAS: No. Sometimes it is. 21 Sometimes with that specific probably was just 22 sent out to the SHU and staff. Because my name 23 wasn't on it. And I'm not custody, so it was 24 probably just sent out to custody. 25 MR. : If it was an important EFTA00113876