LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 her duty was from I think that they were a 2 little different. But it shows on this that it 3 was midnight to 8:00 a.m. I believe they 4 actually worked 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. But 5 after she would leave at either 6:00 a.m. or 6 8:00 a.m. Who would then become the person 7 with oversight of the SHU? 8 MR. THOMAS: I guess. It's either 9 MR. : Would it be or 10 and 11 MR. THOMAS: It would be both and 12 that's operations and the activities 13 lieutenant. 14 MR. : Okay. And then after 15 them would it be and 16 MR. THOMAS: Oh. Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: Well actually. Well yeah. 19 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 20 MR. : So is that how it works? 21 These people up here, these are the operations 22 lieutenant or activities lieutenant would have 23 oversight of the SHU? 24 MR. THOMAS: Well if I'm not mistaken -. 25 It I'm not mistaken, I think, as I said, the EFTA00113677

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 captain is the SHU's house. So I would say -. 2 Well direct supervisor would be the -. 3 MR. : Yeah, like the first line 4 supervisor. 5 MR. THOMAS: First line super would be the 6 operations lieutenant and activities 7 lieutenant. 8 MR. : Okay. And would it be -- 9 MR. THOMAS: That goes for 10 MR. : -- one or the other? 11 Would it be typically -? 12 MR. THOMAS: Well operations are head of 13 the whole building and then -. 14 MR. : So if you had an issue in 15 the SHU, who would you contact? 16 MR. THOMAS: The operations lieutenant. 17 MR. : Not the activities 18 lieutenant? 19 MR. THOMAS: Well activities doesn't come 20 in until 6:00 in the morning. 21 MR. : Sure. So if the 22 activities lieutenant and the operations 23 lieutenant are both present, and there was -. 24 I know you weren't working this date during 25 that time. But if someone, when they're both EFTA00113678

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 on duty, who would be contacted? Activities or 2 operations? Or is it either? 3 MR. THOMAS: I - you would just say 4 whatever SHU needed. You say operations. You 5 say operations . It really depends on the 6 situation. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. THOMAS: Depends on the situation 9 whether you would call the activities or the 10 operations but 9 out of ten times mostly with 11 this you call operations. 12 MR. : And does the activities 13 lieutenant sit in operations? 14 MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? 15 MR. : So how does that work? 16 So for instance, if you -- 17 MR. THOMAS: They can be anywhere in the 18 building. 19 MR. : -- call operations. Are 20 those two individuals together 21 MR. THOMAS: No. They're 22 MR. : typically? 23 MR. THOMAS: normally not together. 24 They can be anywhere in the building. 25 MR. : So would you ever call on EFTA00113679

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 2 3 4 say activities. MR. THOMAS: There could be an instance where you call and say activities when you don't want to bother -. It depends like I said 5 depending on the situation. 6 MR. : Okay. And on your - when 7 you were in the SHU on August 10th, who would 8 have been - who would have had oversight as 9 lieutenant on August 10th? 10 MR. THOMAS: -. 11 MR. -: -. 12 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 13 MR. : Lieutenant 14 MR. THOMAS: Lieutenant, sir. 15 MR. : Okay. Great. And then I 16 think that she left at 6:00 a.m. Who would 17 have then taken over responsibility? Would it 18 have been 19 MR. THOMAS: Uh, . Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. Who is lieutenant 21 -? And I don't know exactly how to pronounce 22 his name, but 23 MR. THOMAS: He's a -. Um, I -. 24 MR. : No-no-no. Not on this. 25 I'm sorry. Who is he? Not looking at this. EFTA00113680

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 Do you know who he is? Lieutenant 2 MR. THOMAS: Um. 3 MR. : Lieutenant 4 MR. THOMAS: He's a lieutenant at MCC. I 5 think he's might be just the quarterly SHU 6 lieutenant I guess. 7 MR. : He was the SHU 8 lieutenant? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. Do you know if he 11 was the SHU lieutenant in August of 2019? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. I'm sure - 13 . I don't know. 14 MR. : So that's not something 15 that you would know -- 16 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. 17 MR. during the day -. 18 MR. THOMAS: During the day. Yeah. 19 MR. : So that -? 20 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 21 MR. : So that's nothing -? 22 MR. THOMAS: But it's like from the 23 roster. I'm sure they posted it, it's probably 24 somewhere on the roster somewhere. But I mean 25 if he say he's the SHU lieutenant, he's the SHU EFTA00113681

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 lieutenant. I don't -. If he was that SHU 2 lieutenant. If it was his quarter to have it, 3 then he's the SHU lieutenant. 4 MR. : Okay. Do you know if he 5 was off on August 9, 2019? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't know (Indiscernible 7 *01:17:42) 8 MR. : You don't know. Sure. 9 Absolutely. Did you have any communications 10 with Lieutenant with regard to Epstein 11 being housed within the MCC? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : Or in the SHU? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 MR. : No? No - any kind of 16 emails or any kind of communication? When I 17 say communication, I mean verbal -- 18 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 19 MR. : emails, anything? 20 MR. THOMAS: Um, not that I know of. No. 21 Not -. I can't recall any. 22 MR. : Okay. So did Lieutenant 23 ever provide you with any kind of special 24 instructions with regard to Epstein? 25 MR. THOMAS: No. EFTA00113682

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. : Did Lieutenant every 2 tell you that Epstein was required to have a 3 celimate when he was assigned to the SHU? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : Do you know who is 6 Operations Lieutenant ? I guess he 7 was the operations lieutenant. 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 9 MR. : Is he regularly the 10 operations lieutenant? 11 MR. THOMAS: It - it -. 12 MR. : At that time? 13 MR. THOMAS: It varies. You know it's a 14 rotating shift, so they could have switched 15 shifts at that time. I don't -. It varies. 16 It varies. 17 MR. : Okay. So according to 18 this August 9th. 19 MR. THOMAS: This says he comes in at - 20 what is it 6:00 and 8:00 - 8:00 to 4:00 or 7:00 21 to 10:00, whichever one. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: Well it says 8:00, so it 24 would be 8:00 to 4:00. 25 MR. : Okay. I think that, from EFTA00113683

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 my understanding, some of the lieutenants were 2 actually working two hours before. 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 4 MR. : So I think he was 5 actually 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Although it's 6 confusing on this, by looking at the roster. 7 So when he was on, would have he been 8 responsible for overall oversight of the SHU? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. If he was operations 10 lieutenant. Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. Did you have any 12 communications with in regard to Epstein? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. 14 MR. : Or the SHU? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : No? So not even any kind 17 of - not even talking about Epstein, with 18 anything to do with your responsibilities in 19 the SHU - with 20 MR. THOMAS: No. 21 MR. : Okay. And again, I'm 22 going to say these names just to try to change 23 things around. 24 MR. THOMAS: Fine. 25 MR. : Did Lieutenant EFTA00113684

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 every provide you with special instructions 2 with regard to Epstein? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 MR. : Did Lieutenant ever 5 tell you that Epstein was required to have a 6 cellmate while he was assigned to the SHU? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 MR. : Who is Lieutenant 9 ? You don't even know? 10 MR. THOMAS: He just started there I 11 think. I want to say he just started there. 12 (Indiscernible *01:19:52) just a transfer now. 13 He probably was there maybe two months. I 14 think if I -. I vaguely remember him. 15 MR. THOMAS: Do you know if he had any 16 involvement or oversight of the SHU? 17 MR. THOMAS: I probably spoke to him 18 twice. 19 MR. : Twice? And do you know 20 what those communications entailed? 21 MR. THOMAS: Time (Indiscernible 22 *01:20:01) 23 MR. : Anything to do with 24 Epstein? 25 MR. THOMAS: Or EFTA00113685

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. : Or operations in the SHU? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 MR. : No? Never provided you 4 any special instructions with Epstein. 5 MR. THOMAS: No. He never provided you 6 any special instructions with Epstein. 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 MR. : Never told you that 9 Epstein was required to have a ceilmate? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 MR. : Okay. What about Senior 12 Officer Specialist 13 I? 14 MR. THOMAS: Uh-huh. Do I know her? Yes. 15 MR. : Yeah. So on August 9th 16 if you look at this. It looks like she was the 17 activities lieutenant 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- from what appears to 20 be - It says 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. Obviously 21 you weren't -- 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm not -. 23 MR. : -- there at that time. 24 Correct? 25 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. EFTA00113686

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Alright. 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I wasn't there. 3 MR. : You weren't there. 4 Correct. At any time did you have any 5 communications with SOS as far as 6 Epstein? 7 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 8 MR. : Did she ever give you any 9 special instructions with Epstein? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 MR. : Did she ever tell you 12 that Epstein was required the have a cellmate? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. 14 MR. : While assigned to the 15 SHU? No? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 17 MR. : Now we're going to talk 18 to the staff members in the SHU on August 10th 19 when you were there. 20 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 21 MR. : Alright. What BOP 22 employees worked in the SHU on August 10, 2019 23 from approximately 1200 a.m. to 6:30 a.m.? 24 MR. THOMAS: Um, Ms. Noel. 25 MR. : And yourself? EFTA00113687

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: And myself. 2 MR. : Okay. And what was your 3 role in the SHU on August 10, 2019? 4 MR. THOMAS: I was SHU 2. She was SHU 1. 5 MR. : And what does that mean? 6 MR. THOMAS: It just means that it's just 7 where you was assigned. It's just where I was 8 assigned. I was assigned there for overtime. 9 She was assigned there for overtime. 10 MR. : Is there a difference 11 between SHU 1 and SHU 2 though? Like different 12 responsibilities? 13 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't - you have to read 14 the post orders. I couldn't tell you. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: exactly what the -. 17 MR. : Is there a hierarchy? 18 MR. THOMAS: I want -. It depends. I 19 mean it really, really depends. That's 20 definitely hard to explain because is there 21 hierarchy? No. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: Remember because she has -. 24 It's no hierarchy. 25 MR. : Is the person with the EFTA00113688

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 most experience in the BOP in command? Or how 2 does that work? When you're in there with 3 another person. There's only two of you. is 4 there someone that's kind of in charge? 5 MR. THOMAS: I'm going to say -. They're 6 going to say SHU -. How it is the BOP. How it 7 is at the jail. They say SHU 1 is in charge. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: But then they with SHU 1 10 or somebody with more time. Like if I have 11 more time than SHU 1. How are you going to be 12 in charge when you have more time? It depends. 13 But then again, I'm non-custody. So it's all 14 different dynamics when it comes to that. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: But they will say SHU 1 is 17 usually in charge. If you bid for SHU 1 -. If 18 you did a bid, they'll say SHU 1 is in charge 19 of the SHU. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. THOMAS: But -. 22 MR. : And you were SHU 2 that 23 day? 24 MR. THOMAS: I was SHU 2 that day. Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. But because you EFTA00113689

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1_ 1 had seniority, is that -? 2 MR. THOMAS: It doesn't play out like 3 that. It doesn't play like that. In a black 4 and white sense, it doesn't play out like that. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. THOMAS: You're both equally 7 responsible because she's SHU 2 and I'm SHU 2. 8 I mean it just - it doesn't - and on paper it 9 plays out that she's SHU 1. She's in charge 10 and I'm SHU 2, but it really doesn't play out 11 like that. 12 MR. : So you're both serving 13 the same roles? 14 MR. THOMAS: Were both serving the same 15 roles, especially on morning watch. We're both 16 doing the same thing 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: were both serving the 19 same. 20 MR. : Same duties a 21 responsibilities. 22 MR. THOMAS: Same duties and 23 responsibilities. Well because you can't do 24 one thing without the other. So. 25 MR. : Okay. Because pretty EFTA00113690

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 much everything you do requires two people. Is 2 that why? 3 MR. THOMAS: Supposed to. Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 6 MR. : And did you replace 7 8 MR. THOMAS: 9 MR. . Did you 10 replace him at 12:00 a.m.? 11 MR. THOMAS: Okay. I guess. 12 Yes. If I can't remember if they said it was 13 . Yeah. Okay. I couldn't remember 14 who I -. It was somebody I had to replace. I 15 don't remember who it was but - 16 MR. : Do you remember having 17 any interaction with when you replaced 18 him? 19 MR. THOMAS: I mean is like me. 20 He's both non-custody. So we work - he's trust 21 fund like how I'm trust fund. He's a material 22 handler specialist -- 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: -- like me, so I'll probably 25 (Indiscernible *01:24:10). I couldn't remember EFTA00113691

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 our exact communication when I started. 1 2 probably said what's up. 3 MR. : Do you remember -- 4 MR. THOMAS: Smacked him on the back of 5 the head. 6 MR. : - any kind of 7 conversations? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. I really don't remember. 9 MR. : Okay. Did you speak with 10 him at all with regard to Epstein? 11 MR. THOMAS: No. 12 MR. : Anything to do with like 13 Reyes leaving and Epstein being alone? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 MR. : No? What conversations 16 did you have with Noel during your shift with 17 regard to Epstein? On August 10th. 18 MR. THOMAS: Uh, none. 19 MR. : You don't remember 20 talking about him? 21 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember talking 22 about him. 23 MR. : Do you recall if anyone 24 else was present at any time at all in the SHU 25 on August 10, 2019? Between the hours of 12:00 EFTA00113692

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 a.m. and 6:33 a.m.? 2 MR. THOMAS: Um.... I'm sure a lieutenant 3 came up. I couldn't tell you when. I'm sure 4 the lieutenant came up once or I'm sure the 5 lieutenant came up. 6 MR. : And who would have been 7 the lieutenant who would come up? 8 MR. THOMAS: Uh, Lieutenant 9 MR. 10 MR. THOMAS: 11 MR. : Okay. And do you 12 remember that interaction at all? When the 13 lieutenant came up? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. Not really. 15 MR. : No? 16 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 17 MR. : Would have that been 18 probably around like 4:00 a.m.? 19 MR. THOMAS: It's sporadic. There's no 20 set particular time that she had to be there by 21 3:00 or 2:00 or 1:00 - anything like that. But 22 I'm sure during the course of the day, during 23 the course of the night, lieutenant 24 came by SHU. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113693

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 MR. THOMAS: She always walks by. She's 2 (Indiscernible *01:25:39) walk. 3 MR. : Do you remember if any - 4 another CO came by maybe around like 5:30 a.m.? 5 MR. THOMAS: Um.... It's supposed to be 6 another CO that comes on at 6:00 to 2:00. I 7 don't recall them ever coming up. It says 8 But it's, as you can see, it's a 6:00 9 to 2:00 post. But I don't. Around 5:00, I 10 don't remember any other I don't remember 11 any other CO coming in. 12 MR. : Okay. What about like a 13 breakfast cart? Who would provide that? How 14 would that be done? 15 MR. THOMAS: Well the breakfast cart that 16 they push it into the hallway. I wouldn't see 17 the person down in food service that -. I mean 18 they push down the hallway and ring the bell. 19 And I don't remember who brought the food cart 20 up. But the food cart came up and we seen in 21 through our peripherals outside the hallway. 22 MR. : And then someone -. 23 MR. THOMAS: It's through a double door. 24 MR. : And then you go and you 25 get it? EFTA00113694

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Then we go and 2 retrieve it and we bring it inside the SHU. 3 Yes. 4 MR. : And do you remember who 5 it was that actually retrieved it that morning? 6 MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember. I 7 think she did, I did. I don't know. I don't 8 remember exactly who did it. 9 MR. : Okay. So the only person 10 that you remember that entered the SHU was 11 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. What was her 14 purpose for visiting the SHU on August 10th? 15 MR. THOMAS: She visited all the housing 16 units. Operations lieutenant she walks around 17 the building throughout the night. 18 MR. : Part of her duties and 19 responsibilities? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Part of her duties. 21 Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. Can you just 23 briefly explain what's the process of entering 24 and exiting the SHU? 25 MR. THOMAS: Um.... Wow, I can't even EFTA00113695

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 remember the door. Um. You call for the door. 2 It's the 20. You call for the door to be 3 opened. I can't remember the exact number of 4 the door. You call for the door to be opened. 5 They ring the bell. You call for the door to 6 be opened. Then you have an inner door that's 7 locked. You unlock that - you call for the 8 person. The person comes in. If it's a warden 9 or anything like that, it's usually a book that 10 they have to sign saying that there entered 11 into - that they entered in or whatever the 12 case may be. They enter in. And then you open 13 the door. 14 MR. : Okay. So you initially 15 said that they call. Who? 16 MR. THOMAS: Well one of the staff members 17 inside call for the door. 18 MR. : Okay. So -. 19 MR. THOMAS: So me or Noel had to call for 20 the door to come in. 21 MR. : So someone comes at the 22 outer door the first door someone's got to go 23 through. They call you guys in the SHU. 24 MR. THOMAS: No. They ring the bell. 25 MR. : They ring the bell? EFTA00113696

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 MR. THOMAS: If the outer door -. It's -. 2 The outer door, whichever number it is, the 3 outer door. You ring the bell. It signals 4 somebody's at the door. You look and you see. 5 I see. I say can I get your name, sir? You 6 see whoever it is. You call for the door. 7 Look to see if the (Indiscernible *01:28:05) I 8 see covering at the door. I bring - I 9 call for the door. He comes in the door. Then 10 there's another door that's locked. You unlock 11 that door and then they come in and then you 12 lock that door back. 13 MR. : So my question is though 14 on the outer door. Who do you call? The 15 control center. 16 MR. THOMAS: Yes. You call the control 17 center. 18 MR. : Okay. And then does 19 someone from the control center? 20 MR. THOMAS: Looks down it. Well the 21 control center verifies who is at the door and 22 then they open the door. 23 MR. : Okay. And is there like 24 cameras there? 25 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, there's a camera in the EFTA00113697

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 hallway. 2 MR. : Okay. Great. So control 3 center allows them in the door first. Do they 4 notify the people in the SHU that someone's 5 coming in? 6 MR. THOMAS: We notify them that someone 7 is coming in. 8 MR. : Oh, okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: Because we call for the door. 10 MR. : So they ring the bell, 11 you call control. 12 MR. THOMAS: Call control center. 13 MR. : Control then looks -- 14 MR. THOMAS: And opens the door. 15 MR. : -- and lets somebody in. 16 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 17 MR. : Okay. And then they come 18 to that. And then does control center have any 19 involvement with them when you said you unlock 20 the door? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. Then it's another key 22 for another door. The inner door. 23 MR. : Okay. And is it just the 24 people that are in the SHU that can allow 25 someone to enter and exit? EFTA00113698

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. THOMAS: For that inner door? Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. And who was it -? 3 How are the keys worked? Who maintains control 4 of those keys? 5 MR. THOMAS: Um, for the morning watch 6 shift. There's one control key and usually the 7 number one person holds it. It's the key that 8 never leaves the thing. I can't remember 9 exactly what keys are on there. 10 MR. : When you say on there. 11 Where are they maintained? 12 MR. THOMAS: They're maintained down in 13 the control center. 14 MR. : But are they like hung up 15 somewhere? 16 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. They're hung up on 17 like a dashboard that says -. 18 MR. : The control. Wait. I'- 19 sorry. So I'm not confused. There's a key 20 that you guys utilize to open the door that's 21 in the control center. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. That utilizes. Well 23 the control center has the master keys for all 24 the doors. 25 MR. : I'm sorry. But the EFTA00113699

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 control center opens that outer door. And then 2 the inner door. Doesn't the people that are 3 assigned to the SHU have - use a key to -? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That's the master key 5 that never leaves the SHU. 6 MR. : Okay. So that's the key 7 I'm talking about. Where is that key 8 maintained? You said the SHU -? 9 MR. THOMAS: Usually the number one on SHU 10 will -. 11 MR. : Like on their person? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. On the person. 13 Usually SHU 1 holds that on the person the 14 whole time. 15 MR. : Okay. So it's not hung 16 up somewhere. 17 MR. THOMAS: No. It's not hung up 18 somewhere. The SHU 1 holds that on them at al 19 times. 20 MR. : Okay. And do you recall 21 on August 9th it was Noel -? 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure. I'm sure she had 23 it. I'm sure she had it. 24 MR. : It was Noel then? Noel - 25 EFTA00113700

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 MR. THOMAS: Because I had the um, the oh! 2 Door keys and cuff key. Or if I had my cuff 3 key. 4 MR. : So if you have the door 5 keys and the cuff keys, usually the other 6 person is the one that has the outer key? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. We have - 8 MR. : Or the (Indiscernible 9 *01:30:16) 10 MR. THOMAS: It rotates. During the 11 course of the day it can't rotate or anything 12 like that. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: When during the day when like 15 somebody's feeding or somebody's doing this and 16 you -. That person would take this key I'm 17 going to go feed this row or I'm about to go do 18 this. So if somebody's doing law library. It 19 can rotate. But during the course of the 20 night, usually SHU 1 has one key and then I 21 come up with the -. I eventually grab another 22 key. 23 MR. : Okay. So on August 10th 24 you said you only recall . Do 25 you recall who allowed her to enter? EFTA00113701

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MR. THOMAS: I -. 2 MR. : Who used the key? 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember who. 4 MR. : No? 5 MR. THOMAS: No-no. I don't remember who 6 popped the door for her to come in. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. THOMAS: It had to be either me or 9 Noel. It couldn't have been nobody else. 10 MR. : And she was an authorized 11 visitor? 12 MR. THOMAS: Who? 13 MR. -: was an 14 authorized visitor? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. 16 MR. : And were you with 17 ? You or Noel with 18 during her entire visit? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. Did 21 ever approach Epstein's cell? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't 23 remember. 24 MR. : You don't recall? Do you 25 recall any conversations with EFTA00113702

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/ 1 with regard to Epstein? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 MR. : She didn't ask like how's 4 he doing or anything like that? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't. 6 MR. : And then who would have 7 allowed her to exit the SHU? 8 MR. THOMAS: Me or either me or Noel. 9 MR. : Okay. And is it the same 10 process? You would have to use a key to open 11 it? 12 MR. THOMAS: You have to use a key to open 13 the inner door. Then you open the inner door, 14 secure the inner door, and then you call the 15 control center to pop the outer door. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. THOMAS: Exactly what it's called. 18 MR. : And then do you recall 19 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall who -. 20 MR. : -- how long she was in 21 there? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. 25 MR. : But she was the EFTA00113703

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 MR. : Operations lieutenant. 2 MR. : -- supervisor -? She was 3 the operations lieutenant -- 4 MR. THOMAS: Lieutenant (Indiscernible 5 *01:31:51) 6 MR. : -- which means that she 7 was the supervisor in the SHU on August 10th 8 from 12:00 a.m. until-? 9 MR. THOMAS: She was the - I wouldn't say 10 supervisor -. Well she was supervising the 11 building on August 10th. Yes. 12 MR. : And with responsibilities 13 for the SHU? 14 MR. THOMAS: Responsibilities for SHU and 15 responsibilities of the institution. 16 MR. : Do you recall having any 17 other conversations with during 18 your shift on August 10, 2019? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 MR. : By phone call or email or 21 anything? 22 MR. THOMAS: Mm. No. 23 MR. : And did at 24 any time ever provide you with special 25 instructions with regard to Epstein? EFTA00113704

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : And again, never told you 3 that he was required to have a cellmate? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : It didn't come up the 6 fact that Reyes left the day before and Epstein 7 was without one? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. 9 MR. : That was just not 10 communicated? How about Lieutenant 11 ? Who is that? 12 MR. THOMAS: A lieutenant at MCC. 13 MR. : Was -? Did Lieutenant 14 replace at 15 approximately 6:00 a.m.? Are you able to tell 16 from looking at this roster? 17 MR. THOMAS: Well this one says he came in 18 at 8:00 to 4:00 or something, but I -. 19 MR. : Yeah, they were two hours 20 earlier. 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, two hours yeah. But 22 yeah, I remember seeing him. 23 MR. : Okay. Do you recall 24 having any interactions with Lieutenant 25 prior to 6:33 a.m. on August 10, 2019? EFTA00113705

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13C 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : And did Lieutenant 3 visit the SHU at all on August 10, 2019 prior 4 to 6:33 a.m.? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I remember. 6 MR. : Okay. And no 7 communications though? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. 9 MR. : And Lieutenant 10 didn't' provide you with any special 11 instructions with regard to Epstein? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : And he did not provide 14 you any instructions with regard to Epstein 15 having a cellmate? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 17 MR. : At any time even prior to 18 that? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 MR. : Okay. Did the control 21 center, R&D, or anyone else call the SHU on 22 August 10, 2019 about -? 23 MR. THOMAS: They would be gone by the 24 time I come in. 25 MR. : All of those people would EFTA00113706

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 have been? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 3 MR. : In the control center? 4 MR. THOMAS: No, not the -. The control 5 center would be there, but R&D would be gone. 6 MR. : Alright. So let's say I 7 did control center or anyone else call the SHU 8 on August 10, 2019 about Epstein cellmate's 9 leaving? Or the need for Epstein to have 10 another cellmate assigned? 11 MR. THOMAS: No. That would have been 12 done prior to my shift. 13 MR. : Okay. But not during 14 your shift? 15 MR. THOMAS: Not during the midnight, no. 16 That would have been done prior. 17 MR. : Alright. So being that 18 you've been in the BOP since 2017. 19 MR. THOMAS: 2007. 20 MR. : Sorry, 2007, that's what 21 I meant. I apologize. In that Epstein was 22 required to have a cellmate, after Reyes left 23 on August 9th, what should have happened? Who 24 should have taken appropriate actions? Can you 25 just kind of walk me through how that process EFTA00113707

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 should have taken place? 2 MR. THOMAS: Um. I mean. By my 3 knowledge, like you said, from being in for 4 work, if he would have left, it would have been 5 communicated to the officers via R&D that 6 somebody had left. 7 MR. : And how would have -? 8 R&D would have been the first people to notify? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. R&D would be -. Yeah. 10 R&D would be the first people to notify that an 11 inmate has been -- 12 MR. : Released. 13 MR. THOMAS: -- taken off the count. Been 14 released. Taken off the count. 15 MR. : Okay. And then who would 16 R&D contact? 17 MR. THOMAS: R&D would contact the 18 lieutenant and contact control center. 19 MR. : So R&D would contact both 20 control center and -- 21 MR. THOMAS: And R&D. 22 MR. : -- the lieutenant? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 24 MR. : Would they at all contact 25 the SHU? Or the place where the inmate was EFTA00113708

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 released from? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Well R&D would contact 3 the SHU and let them know that somebody had 4 been released. 5 MR. : So in this case, Reyes was 6 released on August 9th. Should have they 7 called all three? They should have control 8 center -. Or R&D should have contacted looks 9 like Lieutenant or potentially 10 as well as control center and the SHU staff? 11 MR. THOMAS: In a perfect world, R&D will 12 call lieutenant's office, call control, and 13 call the SHU. I'm sure somebody had to call 14 the SHU and let them know that their base count 15 has changed. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. THOMAS: Some - one way or another, 18 somebody called control to let them know that 19 the base count has changed. Who did they call? 20 I don't know, but during that - because the 21 courts close at 8:00. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: At the latest. Yeah. I 24 believe it's 8:00 p.m. So somebody called and 25 let them know. R&D got the first call that EFTA00113709

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 there would be somebody gone off your count. 2 MR. : Okay. So it wouldn't be 3 like they called the ops lieutenant and the ops 4 lieutenant would then call the SHU. R&D 5 typically would actually call all three. 6 MR. THOMAS: Usually. But I have been 7 when R&D called all three. I have been here 8 when the control center have called the SHU and 9 let them know. Yo, your base count changed. 10 Such-and-such has been released or such-a-bunch 11 has been moved to a different housing unit. 12 Yeah. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: But usually you get a call 15 either from R&D or control center. 16 MR. : Not the ops lieutenant? 17 MR. THOMAS: Not the -. I mean not -. 18 I've been in when the ops lieutenant called, 19 but nah. Not typically the ops lieutenant. 20 MR. : Alright. So it's 21 typically control center. 22 MR. THOMAS: Typically your control center 23 or R&D will call and let you know that their 24 base count have changed. 25 MR. : And you've been present EFTA00113710

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 when that's actually taken place? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I've been present when 3 that's taken place. 4 MR. : In the SHU? 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I've been present in 6 the SHU when that's taken place. 7 MR. : Okay. So how soon after 8 -? So Epstein is required to have a cellmate. 9 How soon after Reyes' departure should have 10 Epstein been assigned a cellmate? 11 MR. THOMAS: That comes from the SHU 12 lieutenant and from operations and the staff 13 member that had to be there. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. THOMAS: If -. 16 MR. : So who -? Who had the 17 responsibility to fill Epstein's cellmate 18 requirement? Who had the responsibility to 19 place Epstein with a new cellmate? 20 MR. THOMAS: I don't know offhand. But 21 I don't know offhand who had the 22 responsibility. But it had to come from either 23 the SHU lieutenant. I would say first since 24 he's a high-profile, I would say from the SHU 25 lieutenant. EFTA00113711

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 MR. : Okay. And were you -? 2 We touched on this before, but in this specific 3 instance, were -. Well you weren't there. 4 MR. THOMAS: I wasn't there. 5 MR. : So would have you, if you 6 were there, would have you been it - uh, 7 authorized to assign him a new cellmate? 8 MR. THOMAS: If I was there and it came 9 down from higher-up to assign somebody, yes. 10 If I was there, yes. 11 MR. : So if someone else told 12 you to? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If somebody told me. 14 If the SHU lieutenant told me that oh listen, 15 he needs this and such like that, yeah. Just 16 go like that because he's high -. I wouldn't 17 just put somebody in his cell. 18 MR. : Okay. What about SHU 19 staff that weren't informed by higher-ups? SHU 20 staff there could have they assigned Epstein 21 with a new cellmate even temporarily? 22 MR. THOMAS: I -. Could they have? 23 MR. : Authorized. 24 MR. THOMAS: Were they -? 25 MR. : I mean that theoretically EFTA00113712

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 they could have as in like you can do anything 2 3 MR. THOMAS: You can do anything you want. 4 MR. : -- you want -- 5 MR. THOMAS: But -. 6 MR. : But were they have been 7 authorized to have -. 8 MR. THOMAS: Nah. Not with a high- 9 profile. No. I don't think they're 10 authorized. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't know offhand, but I 13 wouldn't say from my knowledge for being 14 wouldn't say that they'd be authorized. It 15 would have to come from somebody else. 16 MR. : Okay. So the people that 17 are working in the SHU, what action should have 18 they taken as soon as they were aware that 19 Epstein's cellmate had left? 20 MR. THOMAS: What are we talking about? 21 MR. : So if they're, you know, 22 supposed to be conducting counts. Supposed to 23 be conducting rounds. As soon as they notice, 24 hey, Reyes is gone. Epstein is required to 25 have a cellmate. Is it their responsibility to EFTA00113713

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 notify someone? Hey, get on the phone and call 2 the ops lieutenant, control center, or 3 whomever. 4 MR. THOMAS: I would call. If it were -. 5 I would call somebody. Call somebody and let 6 them know. Operations. Epstein need a 7 cellmate. Or -. 8 MR. : Right. So the -. 9 MR. THOMAS: SHU lieutenant if he's there. 10 MR. : So the SHU lieutenant -- 11 MR. THOMAS: If the first person -. 12 MR. : -- has gone on leave -. 13 MR. THOMAS: If the SHU lieutenant has 14 gone on leave, call the operations lieutenant. 15 MR. : Okay. Alright. Now 16 we're just going to talk a little bit more 17 about rounds and counts. So the cell count. 18 What, officially, what is that? Is it 19 obtaining the official number of the inmates in 20 your housing unit? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. And can you just 23 explain the process? You touched on it before, 24 but now can you actually explain like -. So 25 when you're in the SHU for instance, and you're EFTA00113714

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 2 MR. THOMAS: What timeframe? Are we 3 talking about? 4 MR. : So your timeframe. Let's 5 talk about when you're specifically there. 6 You're there from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. 7 Correct? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 9 MR. : And you were there for 10 both August 9th and August 10th. When should 11 have you conducted counts and how should they 12 have been conducted? 13 MR. THOMAS: How it happens is one officer 14 goes up. You have the door key to the grills - 15 the outside grill. You open the outside grill. 16 One officer walks around, count, verified. Do 17 one count, then the other office go around, 18 count, and then you all combine your numbers at 19 the end. You combine your numbers at the end 20 of each tier. And then you tally up the 21 numbers at the end. Most people write them 22 down on a piece of paper, on your hand, back of 23 a count slip -. It could be a number of 24 different various where people write them down. 25 But one person go arounds count, the next EFTA00113715

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 person go arounds, count. You all say - tell 2 each other your number. I got 15. I got 15. 3 Boom. Then you move on to the next tier. Do 4 the same form for all six tiers. And then you 5 tally up your numbers at the end. 6 MR. : Okay. So when one staff 7 member is counting the inmates, on each tier -. 8 MR. THOMAS: They're the one standing at 9 the grill. 10 MR. : At the grill. And can 11 you just explain what the grill is? 12 MR. THOMAS: It's just a door. 13 MR. : Is the door closed or 14 open? 15 MR. THOMAS: Um, typically it's closed. 16 But some people leave it open. 17 MR. : Okay. So one person 18 remains outside of the tier basically at the 19 door. 20 MR. THOMAS: At the door with the key. 21 MR. : And then one staff member 22 goes around, checks on all the inmates, when - 23 and how do they check on the inmates? 24 MR. THOMAS: They look inside the, and if 25 it's not covered, they look inside a window - EFTA00113716

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 look inside the glass. I can't tell you the 2 diameter of it, but you look inside the glass 3 and you see where the inmates are 4 MR. : Now the 12:00 a.m. Is 5 there a count that's supposed to be done at 6 12:00 a.m., at 3:00 a.m. -? 7 MR. THOMAS: 12:00, 3:00, and 5:00. 8 MR. : All a.m.? 9 MR. THOMAS: All a.m. Yes. 10 MR. : And during that time, 11 when you look in the window of the door, what 12 is it you're supposed to do? 13 MR. THOMAS: You verify flesh. Make sure 14 you can just see somebody - see somebody's 15 skin. 16 MR. : Do you need to see 17 movement? 18 MR. THOMAS: No because they could be 19 asleep. 20 MR. : Does that mean you'r= 21 supposed to hit the door or anything? Make 22 sure -. 23 MR. THOMAS: No. You're not -. 24 MR. : See if they're good? 25 MR. THOMAS: They're still human beings. EFTA00113717

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 No. They're sleep is 12:00 midnight. Some are 2 up playing chess. Some are up writing letters. 3 And some are asleep. You don't hit the door to 4 make sure that they're moving. 5 MR. : Do you shine a flashlight 6 in? 7 MR. THOMAS: Some have a flashlight. You 8 have -. 9 MR. : No, do you, as in 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah, I'll have a 11 flashlight. And just flash and see live 12 breathing skin. They could be under the 13 blanket or anything like that. And -. 14 MR. : Okay. And is the purpose 15 to make-? What is the purpose? 16 MR. THOMAS: To make sure nobody has 17 escaped and see a body inside. 18 MR. : A live body? 19 MR. THOMAS: We have a live body. 20 MR. : Okay. A live body. 21 Okay. And that is the process in the SHU. 22 Correct? Like not only in the institution but 23 in the SHU? 24 MR. THOMAS: That's the process in the 25 institution. EFTA00113718

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 MR. : Right. Including the 2 SHU. 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. And when 5 conducting counts, do COs have to speak with 6 inmates? 7 MR. THOMAS: We don't have to. 8 MR. : No? Now explain to me 9 what is a round? So you said you're -. 10 MR. THOMAS: Um, same process. 11 MR. : Same? 12 MR. THOMAS: It's the same process. 13 MR. : So every 30 minutes you 14 actually have to take a count as well? 15 MR. THOMAS: No you don't have to take the 16 count. The same process without the count - 17 the counting of numbers. You just walk around 18 and verify somebody is inside. 19 MR. : Just like you said with 20 the count, each one has to go around and see if 21 their numbers match up? Does each -? 22 MR. THOMAS: No you don't have to round 23 and see if the numbers match up. No. You just 24 verify that there's a body inside the cell. 25 MR. : But does someone have to EFTA00113719

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 stand at the grill and the other person walk 2 down and have to switch places and do the same 3 thing? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 5 MR. : Both ways? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. So it is the same 8 process aside from -. 9 MR. THOMAS: Well aside for the count. 10 Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. So it's identical 12 other than you're actually counting during a 13 count. 14 MR. THOMAS: The same. Exactly. What you 15 just said. 16 MR. : Okay. And with a round, 17 you also don't need to speak with them. You 18 just have to make sure that they're in there 19 and they're alive? 20 MR. THOMAS: Just make sure that they're - 21 yeah for the round. Just make sure that 22 they're in there. 23 MR. : Okay. Um. And at all 24 times do two officers needed to do the rounds 25 and the counts? EFTA00113720

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 MR. THOMAS: Supposed to be. Yeah. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. THOMAS: Supposed to. 4 MR. : And what is the primary 5 purpose of conducing counts and rounds? 6 MR. THOMAS: To make sure there's a body 7 inside the cell? 8 MR. : Okay. And like you said, 9 no one has escaped and that there's -. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Make sure somebody's 11 in there. 12 MR. : Now are cell counts and 13 rounds documented? 14 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. And do the COs 16 sign documents after they conduct counts and 17 rounds? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 19 MR. : Um. Now if you - in this 20 case from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. there's two 21 people that are assigned to the SHU. Correct? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 23 MR. : And two people have to 24 actually conduct the rounds. Correct? 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113721

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MR. : So if you and Noel are 2 the only two officers in the SHU, were you both 3 responsible for documenting the round sheets 4 and the count slips? 5 MR. THOMAS: Documenting the count slips. 6 Not the round sheet. Whoever -. I mean it 7 doesn't -. If I'm not mistaken, there's no 8 direct responsibility. Whoever wants to do it 9 or do it it's no assigned or number one has to 10 do this or number one has to do that. The only 11 thing we both have to do is sign a count slip. 12 As far as signing a round sheet and um -. 13 MR. : So both have to sing the 14 counts. But for the rounds sheets, if one 15 person signs it, are they basically signing for 16 the both of you? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If you're going to 18 They sign it for the both -. Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : So both people are 22 responsible for that signature? For the 23 rounds? 24 MR. THOMAS: Well because I can sign it. 25 She can sign it. It doesn't make a difference EFTA00113722

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE li 1 but -. 2 MR. : But she's signing on 3 behalf of the both of you? 4 MR. THOMAS: Sign that the rounds were 5 completed. Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. And what do you do 7 with the documents after they're signed? So 8 let's talk about rounds first. After the round 9 sheets are signed -. Can you just explain to 10 me what a round sheet is? Is it -? Do you 11 keep everything on one document? 12 MR. THOMAS: All for -. Excuse me for -- 13 MR. : For rounds? 14 MR. THOMAS: -- for all three, shifts are 15 all on one document. Yes. 16 MR. : So starting on each date 17 from 12:00 a.m. to the -. 18 MR. THOMAS: If it says 12:00 a.m., I 19 can't remember the exact date. It should start 20 from 001 or maybe it's 1201 and continue on. 21 MR. : Okay. And what about 22 counts? Sorry, what do you do with those 23 sheets? Sorry. After you documents the 30- 24 minutes 25 MR. THOMAS: Uh, they stay there. I guess EFTA00113723

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 they get sent to the lieutenant's office at the 2 end -. They get sent to the lieutenant's 3 office at the end of the day. 4 MR. : At the end of a day not 5 the end of a shift? 6 MR. THOMAS: Not the end of the shift. At 7 the end of the day. 8 MR. : Okay. And who collects 9 them? 10 MR. THOMAS: Uh, internal usually collects 11 them. 12 MR. : And what is internal? 13 MR. THOMAS: Um, how do you explain 14 internal? Um. The guy that -. The staff 15 member that rides up the elevator and at the 16 end of the day you collect five security 17 sheets, round sheets, and all - a bunch of 18 different paperwork and you take -. 19 MR. : Is internal like a part 20 of control? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. It's a person in an 22 elevator. Because inmates can't ride the 23 elevators by themselves because we're in a high 24 rise. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113724

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MR. THOMAS: So it's not like a compound 2 center. So the officer on, that usually 3 collects all the rounds sheets if somebody else 4 hasn't done it, the officer on the elevator 5 will usually do it. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. THOMAS: Which is called internal. 8 MR. : Is it a lieutenant or an 9 officer or either or? 10 MR. THOMAS: It's an officer. It's an 11 officer. 12 MR. : It's an officer? Okay. 13 Um. And do you call anyone with the numbers 14 for either counts or rounds? 15 MR. THOMAS: You call control center. 16 MR. : Do you call them or do 17 they call you? 18 MR. THOMAS: No. You call them. 19 MR. : You call them? And who 20 do you call in the control center? Do you ask 21 for someone? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. You call C&A. I forgot. 23 And don't ask me what C&A stands for. But it's 24 - because you have a control center and then 25 you have another person -. And if it's still EFTA00113725

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 two because it used to be one at one time, but 2 you have the control center. And then another 3 person in there um and the person is called 4 C&A. And you would call them and they have a 5 um, a sheet that they call for the count. That 6 they verify for the count. 7 MR. : Is it just for the 8 counts? Not of the rounds? 9 MR. THOMAS: It's just for the counts. 10 MR. : Okay. When you call do 11 you give them a number? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes. You call and give them 13 a number. 14 MR. : Okay. And is it just one 15 overall number? 16 MR. THOMAS: Yes. It's one overall 17 number. 18 MR. : For the SHU. So it would 19 be -. You wouldn't say per tier. You would 20 say -. 21 MR. THOMAS: No-no. It's just one No- 22 no. No. They just say one base count of the 23 whole SHU. 24 MR. : Okay. So on August 10 25 during your shift, from 12:00 a.m. to EFTA00113726

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE L. 1 approximately 6:33 a.m., when did you conduct 2 rounds in the SHU? 3 MR. THOMAS: On August 10th? I didn't. 4 MR. : No rounds were conducted? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't recall doing any 6 rounds. 7 MR. : Okay. And when did you 8 conduct cells during your shift in the SHU on 9 August 10th? 10 MR. THOMAS: Cells 11 MR. : Sorry Cell counts. My 12 bad. When did you conduct the counts during 13 your shift? 14 MR. THOMAS: I didn't. 15 MR. : You didn't. Okay. And 16 did Noel? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. No. She didn't. 18 MR. : No, she didn't? So no 19 one conducted rounds or counts on August 10, 20 2019? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. On my shift, no. 22 MR. : Okay. Prior to 6:33 a.m. 23 on August 10, 2019, when was the last time you 24 conducted a round within the SHU? 25 MR. THOMAS: I -. EFTA00113727

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 MR. : Would you have conducted 2 rounds on August 9, 2019? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Prior. The day. The 4 day prior. 5 MR. : And do you recall if you 6 actually conducted any rounds that day? 7 MR. THOMAS: I probably did it for the 8 rounds and then my counts. I probably did a 9 couple there. Yes. 10 MR. : A couple? 11 MR. THOMAS: I know I did my count. I 12 don't know if I did my -. I don't know how 13 many rounds that I did. 14 MR. : Okay. Do you know if you 15 did the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 16 a.m. --? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 18 MR. : -- on August 9th? 19 MR. THOMAS: I would assume I did. Yes. 20 MR. : Assumption? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 22 MR. : So if we go back to the 23 video, will we be able to see that you did 24 those? 25 MR. THOMAS: You'll see if I did it. Mm- EFTA00113728

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lr 1 hmm. 2 MR. : Alright. So you're 3 belief is that August 9th you did actually 4 conduct those rounds? 5 MR. THOMAS: I would assume I did my 6 counts. Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. Were all the 8 rounds that were document conducted on August 9 9th? 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 11 MR. : No? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 13 MR. : Would you guess that they 14 weren't? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. I would guess that they 16 were before anything else. Before I said that 17 they weren't, I would guess that they were. 18 Some rounds were probably conducted. 19 MR. : Okay. Some were 20 conducted. So maybe some weren't? 21 MR. THOMAS: Maybe some wasn't. I mean 22 nobody's perfect. 23 MR. : Okay. Alright. 24 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:50:01), 25 one person have to do the round. Where's the EFTA00113729

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 notebook? 2 MR. THOMAS: That's the round sheet. Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. So this is August 4 10, 2019. The round sheets shows 12 through 5 and it was only signed up until 6:00, 6:30. 6 MR. : Different dates. 7 MR. : The (Indiscernible 8 *01:50:21) the tiers. Okay. Can you just 9 explain are these - is this for the overall SHU 10 and the different tiers listed on it? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 MR. : Alright. Now -. 13 MR. THOMAS: Well this is not -. It's not 14 It's not labeled at different tiers. No. 15 It's not labeled at different tiers. Well yes. 16 Each paper is a different tier. 17 MR. : Yeah. So like this says 18 Tier G. That one is Tier H. 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 MR. : Correct? 21 MR. THOMAS: Each thing is a 22 MR. : Tier J. 23 MR. THOMAS: different tier. 24 MR. : Tier K. 25 MR. THOMAS: Tier L. EFTA00113730

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 MR. : Tier L. 2 MR. THOMAS: And -. 3 MR. : That's a different count. 4 Okay. So these are what's signed after a round 5 is conducted? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Alright. And these were 8 all -- 9 MR. THOMAS: All -. 10 MR. : -- signed but none were 11 actually conducted? Is that correct? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. Are any of these 14 signatures actually yours? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : Okay. So whose 17 signatures are - whose initials are these? 18 MR. THOMAS: It's Noel's. 19 MR. : Alright. But as you 20 mentioned before, you are both actually 21 responsible for signing? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. We're not both 23 responsible 24 MR. : I know, but responsible 25 for -- EFTA00113731

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 MR. THOMAS: for signing. 2 MR. conducting them. 3 MR. THOMAS: Both are supposed to be 4 conducting, but yeah. Both are responsible for 5 conducting. 6 MR. : Okay. So why didn't you 7 guys conduct the rounds? 8 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't tell you. I was 9 tired that day. As you can see by the paper, 10 do a lot of overtime which is -. I was just 11 tired. Just exhausted that day. 12 MR. : Um. Alright. Can you 13 just initial and date this? Thank you, sir. 14 Um, and you said that you also didn't conduct 15 any of the cell counts on the SHU on August 10, 16 2019. Correct? 17 MR. THOMAS: Cell counts. What do you 18 mean cell counts? 19 MR. : The counts, so that was 20 the rounds. These are the counts. 21 MR. THOMAS: Counts. Yes. 22 MR. : Sorry. The inmate 23 counts. I don't know why I -somebody wrote 24 Okay. So the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., the 25 5:00 a.m. None of them were conducted? EFTA00113732

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : Um. Are these the three 3 where they're -. Yep. Can you just tell me 4 what it is we're looking at here? It looks 5 like this is the overall 12:00 a.m. -. 6 MR. THOMAS: Institution count. Yes. 7 MR. : So this is the 8 institution count? And this is the - for all 9 three of those counts - 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., 10 5:00 a.m.? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 MR. : Alright. Awesome. 13 MR. MITCHELL: And the number doesn't 14 change? Or anything? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Alright. So 17 (Indiscernible *01:53:06) A2, B2.... So is 18 that the time of the count? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. That's not the time of 20 the counts on either one of them. No. That':-, 21 not the time of the counts. 22 MULTIPLE INDIVIDUALS: [Indiscernible 23 *01:53:25 to *01:53:30] 24 MR. : Look at the bottom. 25 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, the time when it was EFTA00113733

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 printed and the time it was printed. 2 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:53:37) 3 at the top and at the bottom is the time of the 4 count. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. What time -? 6 MR. : The first one was at 7 12:49 was when it would have been cleared? Is 8 that correct? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 10 MR. : And then this one would 11 have been at 3:00, it looks like -- 12 MR. THOMAS: 3:24. 13 MR. : -- 3:24. I don't know 14 what the 3:19 on here means. 15 MR. THOMAS: It means good verbal. GV 16 means good verbal. 17 MR. : Oh, okay. So good verbal 18 at 3:19 and -. 19 MR. THOMAS: Clear counted. Yeah. 20 MR. : And the next one was 5:30 21 a.m. 22 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Okay. Alright. Awesome. 24 Um. So that's the overall count. And let's -. 25 Can you just tell me what each of -? What are EFTA00113734

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 these pages? 2 MR. THOMAS: That's just for - the 3 hospital which is the suicide room. 4 MR. : So these -. 5 MR. THOMAS: That means these three 6 inmates were out of their cells. They were 7 down at the suicide room. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: I mean those four inmates. 10 MR. : And what about this? 11 What's that? 12 MR. THOMAS: That's just the paperwork 13 that's in the computer system saying that they 14 were taken from one place to another. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: They were taken from their 17 cells to the hospital. 18 MR. : Okay. And are these the 19 actual count slips? 20 MR. THOMAS: These are actual count slips. 21 MR. : Alright. Can you find 22 which count slips were the ones from the SHU on 23 August 10th? 24 MR. THOMAS: It would say ZA. 25 MR. : I think it might be the EFTA00113735

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 next page. Okay. So that's ZA. The very last 2 page. 3 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : And whose signatures are 5 on those? 6 MR. THOMAS: Mine and Noel's. 7 MR. : You and Noel. Okay. And 8 you actually did sign that? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. And it says 11 8/10/19. And what does the time say there? 12 MR. THOMAS: 12:01. 13 MR. : Who would have filled 14 that part out? 15 MR. THOMAS: Um, the 16 MR. : Can you tell by the -? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That looks like my 18 handwriting. 19 MR. : So your handwriting would 20 have filled that out? Alright. And did you 21 have conversations with Noel at that time? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't recall any 23 conversations with her. 24 MR. : You don't recall? So was 25 it like hey, we're tired, let's just fill this EFTA00113736

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 out? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. It could 3 have been. I don't recall saying that. But it 4 could have been something to that nature. 5 MR. : Alright. Can you - so 6 what number do you have on there? 7 MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? 8 MR. : What's that count? 9 MR. THOMAS: 73. 10 MR. : Can you look at the first 11 page? And see where it says ZA? What number 12 is on there? 13 MR. THOMAS: 72. 14 MR. : Do you remember having 15 any conversations with control center or the 16 ops lieutenant about the fact that those 17 numbers are different? 18 MR. THOMAS: No. 19 MR. : So do you remember -? 20 Were you the one who called that number in that 21 night? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 23 MR. : You don't remember? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 25 MR. : You don't remember -? EFTA00113737

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 And I only say this just because of everything 2 that's surrounding this. These were the three 3 counts prior and obviously -- 4 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- this is kind of the 6 reason for us interviewing you. 7 MR. THOMAS: But then also, if -. 8 MR. : DO you remember if - it 9 says here. You can look at the next -. So. 10 MR. THOMAS: No-no. I'm just saying 11 somebody -. 12 MR. : This is ZA. What does 13 that number say? 14 MR. THOMAS: 72. 15 MR. : Whose handwriting is 16 this? 17 MR. THOMAS: This one is mine. That's 18 mine. 19 MR. : So that's all yours? And 20 you did sign this one? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 22 MR. : And this is the 3:00 a.m. 23 count? 24 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : And what does this say? EFTA00113738

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1, 1 MR. THOMAS: 72. 2 MR. : Alright. So do you 3 recall a conversation with the ops lieutenant 4 with regard to that discrepancy? 5 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don't 6 recall a conversation with (Indiscernible 7 *01:56:31) the discrepancy, but I'm sure that 8 another one was sent down changing the -. 9 Because they wanted to clear, I'm sure that 10 another one was sent down saying 72 with the 11 correct number on it. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. THOMAS: I mean I -. The person that 14 I can see that's down there definitely would 15 have verified that. Oh, you have the wrong 16 number. And switched it out. 17 MR. : Okay. And -. 18 MR. THOMAS: That's just -. 19 MR. : Do you remember though 20 speaking with the person on the phone and 21 saying that -. 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't. I don't. 23 MR. : You don't remember any 24 conversation with them telling you you've got 25 to do a new count. A new count slip. EFTA00113739

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall any 2 conversation, but I'm almost -. I would be 3 sure that he didn't just let that just go with 4 the wrong number on there. Or maybe he did. 5 Maybe he didn't. 6 MR. : Well I think it was a 7 "she." Would you have spoken to -? 8 MR. THOMAS: It's "he." 9 MR. : Oh this person is "he"? 10 So it wouldn't have been that did 11 this one? 12 MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? 13 MR. : Who would have -? Can 14 you tell which -? Because doesn't the ops 15 lieutenant have to take one of the counts? 16 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Can you tell who it was 18 that took this count on 12:00 a.m.? 19 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't' tell by not 20 handwriting. It says -. Well I don't know who 21 took it. It doesn't say who took it. It just 22 say who prepared it. 23 MR. : Okay. Do you at all 24 recall speaking with about these 25 counts on August 10, 2019? EFTA00113740

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't. No. 2 MR. : No? So is this the first 3 that you're even noticing that the count -? 4 MR. THOMAS: That the count slip was 5 wrong? Yes. This is my first time besides in 6 the -. This is my first time in the -. 7 MR. : Would that be a big deal 8 if you're sending in a count slip that's wrong 9 though? 10 MR. THOMAS: Would it be a big -? It's a 11 Yes. It would be a big deal as far as the 12 wrong count being called in. And then the 13 correct count slip would have been changed 14 before the count was cleared. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: So I'm sure the correct count 17 slip probably was sent down. It's just 18 obviously not here. 19 MR. : But being that it's kind 20 of a big deal, that still doesn't spark your 21 memory of any kind of correction to this? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. It's not sparking my 23 memory by any kind of (Indiscernible *01:58:22) 24 but I'm sure a correct count slip would have 25 been sent down. EFTA00113741

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. THOMAS: It wouldn't have just been 3 left at 73 on there and that's the wrong 4 number. 5 MR. : So if that - a new count 6 slip would have been sent down, is there any 7 reason for them to have that count slip that 8 was originally prepared attached to this 9 document? 10 MR. THOMAS: Unless it got misplaced. No. 11 I don't know they would put that one onto this 12 document. 13 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. Were 14 any supervisors present? Or are supervisors -? 15 So you already said you didn't conduct any 16 counts, so obviously no supervisors were 17 present for any counts or rounds during your 18 shift. Correct? 19 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Were they required to be 21 present for any counts or rounds during their 22 shift? 23 MR. THOMAS: They're required to take one 24 count. I don't know which count they're 25 required -. I don't know what's the book EFTA00113742

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 1 thing. But which one they required. But are 2 they required to take rounds in the SHU while 3 I'm there? I don't know. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if they're 6 actually supposed to have to do one round per 7 unit or anything like that. I really don't 8 know that. 9 MR. : So when you say they are 10 required to take one count, do you mean in the 11 control center? 12 MR. THOMAS: In the control center 13 downstairs. Yes. 14 MR. : Yeah. They're supposed 15 to take an institution count. 16 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Exactly. 17 MR. : But are they required to 18 go to the SHU and physically do either a round 19 or a count -- 20 MR. THOMAS: I -. 21 MR. : -- during each shift? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 23 MR. : Did they ever do that 24 during any of your morning - your shifts from 25 midnight to 8:00 a.m.? EFTA00113743

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 MR. THOMAS: Did they ever come take a 2 count with me? 3 MR. : Do a round or a count 4 with you? 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I've seen them do it 6 before. I've seen them just come. Some will 7 count a unit for you from time-to-time. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall that night - 10 which lieutenant, but I've seen lieutenants, oh 11 well I'm going to be here. I'll count that 12 unit so you don't have to worry about it. 13 Since we'd be so shorthanded sometimes they - 14 if they're out and about at that time, they'll 15 just take it then. They'll take the 3:00 16 count. Like I said, it varies. There's no - 17 As far as I know, there's no black-and-white 18 way of how to do it. 19 MR. : Okay. So you don't know 20 of a -- 21 MR. THOMAS: As far as -. 22 MR. : -- requirement saying 23 that you know a lieutenant needs to do a count 24 or a round? 25 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I don't know of any EFTA00113744

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 requirement. 2 MR. : So you think when people 3 did it in the SHU, you think Your 4 understanding was they were doing it just to 5 help you out? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. If they did it while I 7 was in the SHU. Yes. 8 MR. : Um. Do you recall when 9 you worked in the SHU if there were any recent 10 times -? Like I know you worked on August 9th. 11 Do you remember at all -? I know it's a 12 different day. 13 MR. THOMAS: On the 6th I think is -. 14 MR. : Do you remember at that 15 time if a lieutenant helped or assisted with a 16 count -- 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't. 18 MR. : -- or a round? 19 MR. THOMAS: I don't. I don't. 20 MR. : You don't? 21 MR. THOMAS: I don't. 22 MR. : Fair enough. Um. 23 Alright. So you already said. We don't need 24 to go through all these individually -- 25 MR. THOMAS: Okay. EFTA00113745

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 MR. : -- one by one. You said 2 you didn't do the 12:00 a.m., at 3:00 a.m., and 3 the 5:00 a.m. What conversation did you have 4 with Noel about this during that time? 5 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 6 MR. : I know I asked you 7 specifically about the 12:00 a.m. But what 8 about it during your shift at all? Like not 9 doing any of the counts or any of the rounds. 10 What conversations did you have with Noel? 11 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember having any 12 conversations with her about it. No. 13 MR. : So it wasn't even 14 discussed like, hey we're just - it's a long 15 night, we're all tired. Let's just not do 16 these. 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 18 MR. : No? 19 MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. I don.': 20 remember anything like that. No. 21 MR. : Alright. So no one of 22 them were conducted, but no conversations with 23 regard to it? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember any 25 conversations with us talking about it or EFTA00113746

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 anything like that. 2 MR. : Okay. And on the 12:00 3 a.m., at 3:00 a.m., 5:00 a.m. Did you call in 4 the counts or did Noel call in the counts? 5 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember who called 6 in the counts. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. It had to 9 be either one. There's only us two there. I 10 don't remember who did it exactly. I really 11 don't. 12 MR. : Alright. So like you 13 said with regard to the rounds that are signed. 14 Both are responsible. You know you're supposed 15 to both conduct it. One actually has to sign - 16 17 MR. THOMAS: Somebody has to call it in. 18 MR. : Somebody has to call it 19 in. So you're both take responsibility for 20 calling them in. You both take responsibly for 21 signing the round sheets? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. So if you're 24 documenting these rounds. Did you document 25 these counts? You obviously had to document EFTA00113747

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 1 the counts at the time that they were called 2 in. Correct? Because you've got to provide 3 the count slip. 4 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 5 MR. : So if you're preparing 6 that count slip, why aren't you just -? How 7 long does it take to conduct a count? 8 MR. THOMAS: 15 minutes - 10, 15 minutes. 9 MR. : So if you're preparing 10 the count slip, why aren't you just conducting 11 them? 12 MR. THOMAS: Like I said, just exhausted. 13 Most of the time, as you can see by my monthly, 14 I do a lot of overtime. Like I said. Again, 15 I'm usually the internal. I do prefer 16 internal. But as you can see, I do SHU quite a 17 bit as well. And it's just something that just 18 happened. Um. It's really no easy way of 19 putting it. It's just something that just 20 happened. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. THOMAS: Regrettably. 23 MR. : So how often would you 24 document cell counts that you didn't conduct? 25 MR. THOMAS: Not often at all. EFTA00113748

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Not often? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 MR. : Would it be like one per 4 shift? Two per shift? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. Like -. I mean like I 6 said, no one's perfect and everything like 7 that. But I could say I've done - I usually 8 get up and do a round. Just walk around and 9 everything like that. And it shows that I 10 walked around and everything like that. But 11 it's not very often that I just said, fuck it. 12 Excuse my language. That I just disregard my 13 jobs and my duties. It's definitely not often 14 at all. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: But um, like I said, I just - 17 18 MR. : It happened in the past. 19 You just don't know how it -. 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I did. It's — I'm sure 21 it's happened in the past. Like I said, I'm 22 not going sit up and say I'm perfect. I get 23 everything on the dot - bullet that. But I try 24 to get as most of it like that. Sometimes you 25 have bad days. Sometimes you have good days. EFTA00113749

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 But with everything else, I just had one and I 2 know it was a bad day. 3 MR. : What about rounds? How 4 often would they be not -? 5 MR. THOMAS: Same thing. Same thing. 6 MR. : Same thing? 7 MR. THOMAS: Same thing. You get as many 8 as rounds as you can. I don't know what's the 9 number of if it's 7, 10, or 12 or whatever the 10 case of the number it is. But you do get the 11 rounds in and everything. Even if you get them 12 done. If you don't get them done by every half 13 an hour, you know what I mean. I've done them 14 every hour one time. You know just being 15 exhausted. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. THOMAS: But I do get some done and 18 like I said, this particular time I guess I 19 didn't get anything done. 20 MR. : Now is - does it have 21 anything to do with like being the 12:00 a.m. 22 to 8:00 a.m. shift? You know, why do they have 23 three separate counts at that time? Is there a 24 -? 25 MR. THOMAS: That's an institution thing. EFTA00113750

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 MR. : Is that when inmates like 2 typically try to harm themselves? Is that why 3 they're done more often from that time? 4 MR. THOMAS: It's actually changed. 5 Before the count was done at 9:45. Now it's 6 done at 10:00. Like it's -. I don't know the 7 particular reason why. That's just standard 8 BOP protocol since I've been there. To just 9 make those counts. 10 MR. : Okay. DO you know of 11 other staff members that are also entering on 12 these - their slip counts and rounds that 13 they're not -? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't know what other staff 15 members do. I'm locked in wherever. If I'm on 16 internal or if I'm on the (Indiscernible 17 *02:05:17). If I'm on one unit, I don't know 18 what another housing unit is doing. 19 MR. : Sure. So you mentioned 20 that there were certainly were other times that 21 you didn't do counts or rounds. So obviously 22 I'm assuming you weren't always working with 23 Noel. Correct? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I wasn't always working 25 with Noel. EFTA00113751

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 MR. : So I'm assuming those 2 counts and rounds weren't conducted with 3 another staff member. Correct? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. I said they were 5 conducted -. 6 MR. : Not all of them. 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I did say maybe not all 8 of them or maybe most of them. Or maybe all of 9 them was conducted. You know what I mean? It's 10 not always as a (Indiscernible *02:05:48) just 11 not done at all. 12 MR. : Well -. 13 MR. THOMAS: But I have conducted my 14 counts before. Absolutely. 15 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. But I 16 want to make sure that we're certain that 17 obviously you -- 18 MR. THOMAS: that I said that I'm not 19 perfect? 20 MR. : Yeah-yeah. That you 21 didn't conduct all of your counts that were 22 documented. 23 MR. THOMAS: You can be certain that I'm 24 not perfect that I've conducted every single 25 one of mine all the time. But I've conducted EFTA00113752

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 most of my counts for most of the time. 2 MR. : Okay. Gotcha. 3 MR. THOMAS: Absolutely. 4 MR. : So when that happens 5 though, would you have conversations with staff 6 members in general? Like hey man, it's just a 7 long day. Let's not do this one. 8 MR. THOMAS: Um. Absolutely that depends 9 on so many different variables. There's really 10 no conversations about well you know we're not 11 going to do this or anything like that. 12 There's really no conversations about that 13 MR. : I would just think that 14 if there's no -. If it's supposed to be done 15 and there's no conversations about it, that 16 just seems like they're never done. So what do 17 you have to say -- 18 MR. THOMAS: Not really because -. 19 MR. : -- like okay let's skip 20 this one. 21 MR. THOMAS: -- you've got -. Like I said, 22 I'm not the only one that does this actually 23 looks a lot different from what I'm used to 24 seeing. As you can see because right now, 25 these only have stars. Some people have S by EFTA00113753

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 their name because they did more overtime than 2 others. So if they - sometimes you could just 3 be tired. Sometimes it doesn't have to be a 4 conversation. Somebody just didn't bother you 5 and you just did the round at all. I'm -. 6 MR. : Do you almost like wait 7 for someone to take the initiative and if they 8 don't take the initiative, you both just kind 9 sit there? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. No. Like I said, it 11 just -. It could happen in any different 12 variable way. You know what I mean? But most 13 the time, I would say most of those guys in 14 there do their counts. 15 MR. : Okay. Are more counts 16 not being done in that morning shift though 17 versus the day shift? 18 MR. THOMAS: Again, I don't know what 19 other people do. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. THOMAS: When they're in their housing 22 units or not. 23 MR. : Okay. And is it kind of 24 a common practice at the MCC not to do rounds 25 in the SHU? And the counts? EFTA00113754

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 MR. THOMAS: No. It's not a common 2 practice. I don't want to say that. 3 MR. : You wouldn't say it's a 4 common practice? So this was an unusual even 5 you're saying? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Definitely an unusual 7 event. 8 MR. : Um. 9 MR. THOMAS: Definitely. 10 MR. : Okay. I'm going to move 11 on to the next thing. Let's just talk a little 12 bit about the SHU layout. Do you have a uh -? 13 Do you mind - just so we can get these away 14 from you - do you mind just initialing 15 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 16 MR. : -- and dating the top 17 there? Both the rosters as well as the count 18 slips. We already did the rounds. Correct? 19 MR. : The rounds -. Yeah. 20 MR. : So just initial and date 21 the top. It's just to show that we're - 22 MR. THOMAS: That we spoke about it. 23 MR. : It's what we discussed. 24 And this one we didn't actually go over. My 25 bad. Thank you, sir for initialing and dating EFTA00113755

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 those. So this is the layout of the SHU. It 2 looks like -. You said that there's two levels 3 in the SHU. Correct? It starts on the 9th 4 floor. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. It starts on the 9th 6 floor and goes all the way up to the 10th. 7 MR. : Okay. Are you able to 8 tell by this - by looking at the letters which 9 one is the first floor and which one is the 10 second? 11 MR. THOMAS: No, I can't tell. 12 MR. : That isn't the cells. 13 MR. : So like the cell numbers 14 and stuff. Do you know which ones are like L, 15 H, all that kind of stuff? 16 MR. THOMAS: By the numbers? No. I 17 couldn't tell you which number is what. What 18 stay is -. Nah, I couldn't tell you what 19 number. That could be -. No. I really 20 couldn't tell you what numbers are what. 21 MR. : That's fine. So they're 22 Are they basically? 23 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure that this could be 24 the top and this could the -. 25 MR. : Are they basically EFTA00113756

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 identical layouts though? 2 MR. THOMAS: On everyone except for 3 Yeah. Every housing unit is set up the same. 4 Absolutely. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. THOMAS: Except for -. 7 MR. : So it looks like they're 8 Aside from this. This says stairs. So it 9 says kitchen area. Would the kitchen area be 10 on the first? And which is the second? 11 MR. THOMAS: The kitchen are is on every 12 housing unit. 13 MR. : You have to tell me a 14 (Indiscernible *02:10:04). 15 MR. THOMAS: It's in a 16 MR. : Like as far as so like 17 this is what I'm noticing as a difference. 18 These cells look like they're all the same 19 aside from here. It looks like there's 20 visiting activity. And then here it says 21 kitchen area. And here it has this area. So 22 by looking at that are you able to tell what's 23 the first and what's the second? So I'm 24 noticing the difference between this and this. 25 MR. THOMAS: Right. Yeah. Okay. This EFTA00113757

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 would -. No. Because this says office. 2 would have said this would have been the 3 bottom, but this says office. Maybe -. This 4 got to be the bottom because the visiting 5 floor. But -. 6 MR. : This says M over here. See, 7 this has M in front of it. This has K. 8 MR. : These are the tiers. 9 MR. THOMAS: M, H. Yeah. Okay. Okay. 10 Yeah, this is a tier. Okay. 11 MR. : That's what I was saying 12 by the (Indiscernible *02:10:57). 13 MR. THOMAS: Oh in front of there. You 14 said -. See I heard you say (Indiscernible 15 *02:11:00). So H would be the -. This would. 16 I think K is the -. G is - Where's G? G is 17 the top. There we go. 18 MR. : That's what I thought. 19 So and these are the L tier over here. 20 MR. THOMAS: Oh because this is 10 South. 21 That's a -. This is 10 South. 22 MR. : And just since you 23 mentioned it. What is 10 South? 24 MR. THOMAS: Another housing unit inside 25 the institution. EFTA00113758

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 MR. : Is it the super-secure, 2 one inmate per cell. 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. 4 MR. : It has cameras in it. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Cameras all around and 6 everything like that. 7 MR. : Right. So high-profile 8 type of thing. 9 MR. THOMAS: High-profile inmates and 10 everything like that go in there. Yes. 11 MR. : Alright. So did you say then 12 this is because that's 10 South this is the 13 second floor? 14 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 15 MR. : Alright. I'm just going 16 to write on top of this right here "second." 17 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : Second floor. And on 19 this one I'm just going to write first floor. 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. You separated by 21 floors but they're all in one place. 22 MR. : Sure. 23 MR. THOMAS: Like it's not -. 24 MR. : yeah-yeah-yeah. 25 MR. THOMAS: It's not two different EFTA00113759

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 separate floors. When you're saying floor I'm 2 thinking 9th floor, 7th floor. But this is all 3 technically -. 4 MR. : It's all the SHU. 5 MR. THOMAS: It's all the SHU. Yeah. 6 MR. : Correct. But there are 7 two floors in the SHU. Right? 8 MR. THOMAS: No it's really not Well 9 yeah. It's not two floors. 10 MR. : Like a split-level 11 almost? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't know how to explain 13 it. It's not two floors like that because then 14 you would say it's three floors. Because when 15 you go down - you go down the steps into one. 16 And you just go up the stairs but it's all in 17 one area. 18 MR. : Okay. So -- 19 MR. THOMAS: Like this would all be 10 20 South. 21 MR. : -- when I say -. 22 MR. THOMAS: And this all would be nine. 23 And then all this would be seven. But right 24 here, you'll go down and then you'll go up. 25 But it's still all on the same floor. EFTA00113760

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. THOMAS: It's all on the 9th floor. 3 MR. : So it's all 9th floor. So 4 is this the second level of the 9th floor? 5 MR. THOMAS: The second level of the 9th 6 floor. 7 MR. : Should I change 2nd floor 8 to 2nd level? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yeah just like Yeah. 10 Because you say floor you're thinking like you 11 went from one floor to another. Like this is 12 the third floor and downstairs would be the 2nd 13 floor. 14 MR. : Sure 15 MR. THOMAS: But this is all - it's all on 16 one. 17 MR. : So 9th floor 2nd level. 18 Is that correct? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Okay. I don't have a 20 problem with that. 21 MR. : So 9th floor 22 MR. THOMAS: First level. 23 MR. : First level. Alright. 24 So can you tell me where is it that the 25 officer's station is set up? Where are you EFTA00113761

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 when you work in the SHU? Is it all in a 2 centralized location? I'm assuming it's on the 3 first floor? 4 MR. THOMAS: It's on the first floor and 5 it would be roughly it'll be -. This is kind 6 of set up crazy. But it would be over. No 7 because that's K, L, so this would be -. It's 8 in between K and - 9 MR. : This is the kitchen area. 10 This is recreation. Would it be somewhere over 11 like here or -? 12 MR. THOMAS: Well see, because of the way 13 that this is set up. It would be somewhere 14 over here. But it's not level with the tiers. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: Like because how this is set 17 up if I say that -. May I? 18 MR. : Yeah. You can even draw. 19 MR. THOMAS: Alright. Like I'm saying 20 it's in this space here. Officers station. 21 But it's not on the same level as the tiers. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: Like the way if I say 24 officer's station -- 25 MR. : So it's like below it? EFTA00113762

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 MR. THOMAS: -- you're thinking it goes 2 down. If I say officer's station here, you're 3 thinking that - you're thinking that it's right 4 next to K tier and M tier. But it's not like 5 that. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. THOMAS: Like this is The 8 officer's station would be somewhere in this 9 general area right here. But then K tier is 10 over here but it's downstairs. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: And then J tier is upstairs 13 but it's still on the 9th floor. But it just 14 goes - like I said, it has steps here. Like 15 how it is. It's got steps going down to one, 16 steps going down to two. So they're not on the 17 same -- 18 MR. : I understand. 19 MR. THOMAS: -- floor as the officer's 20 station. 21 MR. : So you think it's actually 22 outside here and not more like in here? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It's kind of like in 24 between. I would say more like here. Like in 25 between them. EFTA00113763

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 MR. : Okay. So from the 2 officer's station can you see like the doors to 3 the cells? 4 MR. THOMAS: You can see doors to the 5 cells. Yes. 6 MR. : You can? 7 MR. THOMAS: You can see inside the cells, 8 absolutely not. But I can see the doors to the 9 cell. 10 MR. : So you can see the doors 11 but you can't see inside? 12 MR. THOMAS: You can't see inside the 13 cells. No. You could just see the door. 14 MR. : Alright. Could you see 15 he door to Epstein's cell? 16 MR. THOMAS: You can see his door from. 17 Yes. You can see his door from there. 18 MR. : Okay. So from the 19 officer's station, was Epstein pretty much the 20 closest cell to the officer's station? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. 22 MR. : It wasn't? 23 MR. THOMAS: No, it's not the closest. 24 The M tier because if I'm not mistaken, Epstein 25 was on the second tier. So he would have been EFTA00113764

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 on L tier. He would have been up here. So all 2 the cells in M tier just right here would have 3 been the closest to the officer's station. N 4 tier and even this tier would be closer than. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. THOMAS: If I'm not mistaken, Epstein 7 was up this -. 8 MR. : Do you remember which 9 cell he was in? 10 MR. THOMAS: I - up This one. 11 MR. : DO you mind just marking 12 that like put a star or something? Okay. But 13 you could see his door, but you just couldn't - 14 But -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, you could see -. 16 MR. : -- it wasn't the closest. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, it's not the closest to 18 it. 19 MR. : Is it - does it sit up 20 there though if you can see like from down 21 here. You can see there? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know why he would sit 23 there in that particular cell. 24 MR. : But you can see the door? 25 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. EFTA00113765

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 MR. : Okay. And - I'll just go 2 through -. And you said you couldn't see 3 actually inside the cell though? 4 MR. THOMAS: No, you can't see inside the 5 cell. No. Absolutely not. 6 MR. : And you, approximately 7 like how far would that be from the officer's 8 station? Epstein's cell? The estimate was 15 9 feet. 10 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 11 MR. : Does that sound right? 12 MR. THOMAS: We're good with that. 13 MR. : So on August 10, 2019, 14 did you ever see anyone inside of Epstein's 15 cell? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 17 MR. : Not from the hours of 18 12:00 a.m. to 6:33 a.m.? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. Yeah. From - I never 20 seen anybody going inside that cell. 21 MR. : Okay. So you didn't ever 22 witness anyone - inmates, staff members, or -. 23 MR. THOMAS: No. I didn't. 24 MR. : Okay. And were you 25 present in the SHU for your entire shift from EFTA00113766

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 12:00 a.m. to 6:33 a.m.? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. Is there like a 4 bathroom and everything in the SHU for you to 5 utilize? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes there is. Yes. 7 MR. : But you don't recall ever 8 leaving? 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall going to the 10 bathroom. I don't know if I -. 11 MR. : No, not the bathroom. I 12 just mean like there was no reason for you to 13 leave that door. That someone would have had 14 to unlock or lock to let you into, the control 15 center would have to let you out. 16 MR. THOMAS: Well somebody -. Well no 17 reason somebody had to go upstairs and count 18 the other units, but - well, one of us had to 19 up there and count the other unit. But there's 20 no reason to -. There is a reason if you want 21 to go use the bathroom or get a drink of water 22 you can go over there but I don't remember if 23 left or not. I don't really recall. 24 MR. : So is your recollection 25 hat you remained in the SHU from the hours of EFTA00113767

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 12:00 a.m. to about 6:33 a.m.? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 3 MR. : So point being you would 4 have known if someone went in or out of 5 Epstein's cell? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. And no one did? 8 MR. THOMAS: No one went in as far as I 9 know. No. 10 MR. : Are you aware of any 11 issues with the camera system in the SHU on 12 August 10, 2019? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. 14 MR. : No? Did you know if any 15 of them weren't recording? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 17 MR. : No. And you never spoke 18 with anybody about the camera system? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 MR. : Did someone live monitor 21 you all when you're in the SHU? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 23 MR. : You don't know. Do you 24 know if someone is live monitoring the range of 25 these tiers? EFTA00113768

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 2 MR. : You're not sure? 3 MR. THOMAS: I'm not sure. I don't think 4 so. 5 MR. : Does each -? Do you know 6 how like camera systems are set up? What 7 they're pointing at and what they're supposed 8 to be covering? 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't - because some of the 10 tiers have cameras. I mean some of the cells 11 have cameras. I don't know. 12 MR. : When you say some have 13 cameras -- 14 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't tell you. 15 MR. : -- would that be just 16 like 10 South and then 10 South lower are the 17 ones that have cameras? 18 MR. THOMAS: No because some of the other 19 tiers - some of the other cells have cameras 20 inside. 21 MR. : Some of the other cells 22 do have cameras in them? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 MR. : Aside from 10 South and 25 10 South Lower? EFTA00113769

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. And what is the 3 purpose of that? 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. Just when I 5 came here they had cameras. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. THOMAS: So that they -. 8 MR. : So not outside of their 9 cells. But in their cells? 10 MR. THOMAS: Inside of the cells. Yes. 11 MR. : Was there a camera inside 12 of Epstein's cell? 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if his tier 14 particularly have cameras. But I know some of 15 the tiers actually do have - besides 10 South 16 Lower. G tier - if I'm not mistaken. It's 17 either G or H. But I think it's G. Yeah, G. 18 Besides G and 10 South, yes, some of the other 19 cells do have cameras in them. 20 MR. : Okay. Anything that you 21 know that would capture the Epstein cell area? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. Not inside his cell. 23 No. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. THOMAS: If he doesn't have a camera EFTA00113770

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 inside his cell. 2 MR. : Okay. Okay. I'm going 3 to move on to the next section. This is about 4 sleeping. DO you recall sleeping in the SHU on 5 August 10, 2019 between the hours of 12:00 a.m. 6 and approximately 6:33 a.m.? 7 MR. THOMAS: I recall dozing off from here 8 and there. Yes I do. 9 MR. : Do you recall how long 10 you were asleep? 11 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. 12 MR. : Do you recall if Noel 13 also slept on her shift? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. No, I don't know. 15 MR. : So you don't know how 16 long she was asleep for? 17 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. 18 MR. : Okay. Were you and Noel 19 seated next to each other on August 10, 2019? 20 MR. THOMAS: If you're saying seated like 21 how me and -? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. THOMAS: No. We're not seated like 24 that. It's -. 25 MR. : How far away were you? EFTA00113771

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 MR. THOMAS: Not even - maybe a foot, two 2 feet apart. I mean it's not too far but we're 3 not sitting like right adjacent and next to 4 each other. It's like how it is it's an L 5 shape. 6 MR. : Okay. But I mean you're 7 sitting with one another. 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 9 MR. : You're not like touching 10 or -. 11 MR. THOMAS: We're sitting in the same 12 area. 13 MR. : But you're sitting with - 14 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. You're sitting -- 16 MR. : -- with one another. 17 Yeah-yeah-yeah. 18 MR. : -- in the same area. But 19 like one person is facing gone way and another 20 person is facing another way. 21 MR. : Okay. And you don't 22 recall seeing Noel actually sleeping? 23 MR. THOMAS: No I don't recall her 24 sleeping. 25 MR. : And you did doze off. EFTA00113772

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 You did sleep. But you don't remember about 2 how long? 3 MR. THOMAS: I do not. 4 MR. : Was it about two hours 5 sound about right? 6 MR. THOMAS: I really couldn't tell you. 7 MR. : Okay. Do you know if you 8 were both asleep at the same time? 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 10 MR. : Did you discuss like hey, 11 I'm going to sleep, you stay awake? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. We did not 13 MR. : No? Okay. No 14 discussions were had. Are you authorized to 15 sleep during your shift in the SHU? 16 MR. THOMAS: No you're not. 17 MR. : Okay. Is that policy 18 that you're not allowed to sleep? Like how do 19 you know that you're not authorized to sleep. 20 MR. THOMAS: You're just not allowed to 21 sleep at work. I don't know if it's policy or 22 not. Just don't (Indiscernible *02:20:59). 23 MR. : Okay. And you knew at 24 the time, obviously. 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113773

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 MR. : Okay. And just to go 2 back, you knew at the time you know you had to 3 You knew that you were falsifying those 4 records at the time of the rounds, counts, and 5 those count slips on August 9th. When you 6 the 10th I mean. When you were actually 7 certifying when you knew that you were 8 incorrectly certifying them? 9 MR. THOMAS: The count slip? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Have you ever 13 fallen asleep previously while on duty at the 14 MCC? 15 MR. THOMAS: I probably have. 16 MR. : Yeah? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 18 MR. : Is that kind of like 19 understood if you work that shift you kind of 20 can doze off? 21 MR. THOMAS: NO. 22 MR. : No? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : Is it a lot less active 25 during the hours of 12:00 a.m. to -? EFTA00113774

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 MR. THOMAS: I mean of course everybody's 2 asleep at that time. All inmates are asleep at 3 that time. But it's a lot - no bodies - no 4 interaction or anything like that. So I mean 5 sometimes you get bored and you know I mean you 6 can sleep through what (Indiscernible 7 *02:21:51) you just nod a little bit. It's 8 I'm sure it's -. It's happened with me a few 9 times but I mean I do get up from time-to-time 10 and try to drink and definitely got a case of 11 Red Bull on hand from now on. 12 MR. : Okay. What about Noel? 13 Have you worked with her in the past? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. Maybe I 15 have. I don't know exactly who I've I've 16 been here 14 -. 17 MR. : So do you recall her 18 sleeping in the past? 19 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. Hm-mm. 20 MR. : What about other people 21 that you work with? You recall other people 22 would also sleep? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. I can't recall if they 24 were sleeping or not. 25 MR. : You're just taking EFTA00113775

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 ownership for yourself. You know you fell 2 asleep, but -. 3 MR. THOMAS: That's it. 4 MR. : Okay. Did Noel ever try 5 to wake you up when you were sleeping? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. 7 MR. : No? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't think so. 9 MR. : Did anyone report -? 10 That you know of? Did anyone contact you and 11 try to wake you up? If people were watching 12 you on the cameras. Did anybody say hey, wake 13 up, or did Noel ever say hey, you've got to 14 wake up? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : No? Where is a CO 17 required to be during their shift in the SHU? 18 Is it just all over the area? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 20 MR. : Just walking around - 21 just within the SHU? 22 MR. THOMAS: It's just with - yeah, just 23 guess in the SHU. Yeah. Well some -- 24 MR. : On your -. 25 MR. THOMAS: -- it - you're required to be EFTA00113776