LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 8:38 a.m., inmate Reyes is pre-removed from ZA 2 for count, and taken off the lieutenant log. 3 The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76. 4 Reyes was removed from the institution and does 5 not - and should not - appear on any counts at 6 this time. 7 At 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed 8 on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the 9 accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant 10 log. The 4:00 p.m. El shows a total of 76 11 inmates assigned to ZA." With one in attorney 12 conference, which was Epstein. "This indicates 13 that Fernandez was not keyed out of the SHU, 14 and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 15 shows 75. Inaccurate. 16 It should have reflected 74 because, 17 although there were 75 inmates assigned to the 18 SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There 19 were no inmates assigned to RA on the El 20 institutional count, and there was no count 21 slip for RA, eyes on count." This is where the 22 problem begins. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : "At 6:34 p.m., inmate 25 Hemingway is moved to ZA, and brings it down to EFTA00059071

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 74. 6:47 p.m., inmate Reed (Phonetic Sp. 2 *02:26:10) is moved from ZA to ES, bringing it 3 down to 73. At 8:21 p.m., Felix (Phonetic Sp. 4 *02:26:15) and William moved to ZA, to suicide 5 watch, bringing the accurate count down to 71. 6 At 8:28 p.m., inmate Garcia Pina (Phonetic Sp. 7 *02:26:23) is moved from K into ZA, bringing 8 the accurate count up to 72. 9 The 10:00 p.m. El shows a total of 73 10 inmates assigned to the ZA, but zero inmates 11 assigned to RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 12 shows 73." Oh, this is another one. I don't 13 think we brought this. "One of the counts 14 actually shows 73 plus one." Do we have that 15 in there? 16 : The 10:00 p.m. 17 : Okay. 18 MR. HAYES: I admire your guys' 19 (Indiscernible *02:26:48). 20 : Yeah. You would also 21 This is all probably -- 22 : 73 (Indiscernible *02:26:52). 23 : -- all Chinese to you. 24 : That's how our count slips - 25 EFTA00059072

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 203 1 : -- now, I did foreign 2 language 3 MR. HAYES: I don't understand -- 4 : -- should be done. 5 MR. HAYES: -- the fuck are you talking 6 about. 7 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 8 : Huh. 9 : This is 10 MR. HAYES: All these initials, and this, 11 and that. 12 : -- but the count -- 13 : So, which is interesting 14 is all of these are, as you notice, crossed 15 off. 16 right. 17 : These two are not crossed 18 off. This one says 9S + 1. This one says 73 + 19 1. The question had been, when did this 20 happen? 21 : Yeah. 22 : When did they put these 23 plus ones, or why weren't they crossed out? 24 : But you can't do a -. This 25 is an inaccurate count slip. Because you are EFTA00059073

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 supposed to have the accurate count. You can't 2 do -. If this is 73 + 1, then you should have 3 74 on there. 4 : Or, in this case, it 5 should be 73 minus one because the accurate 6 count was actually 72. 7 : No, but you wouldn't write 8 minus one on there. You would write the actual 9 count on there. 10 : Right. 11 : So -- 12 : Okay. 13 : -- either it was 72 or 74. 14 : Right. 15 : But there is no -- 16 MR. HAYES: All right. Guys, I'm going to 17 18 : -- such thing as -- 19 MR. HAYES: -- splash water on my face 20 again. 21 : -- okay. There is no such 22 thing -- 23 MR. HAYES: You guys are getting ready to 24 kill me. 25 : -- there is no such thing as EFTA00059074

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 plus one on the -- 2 : Right. 3 : -- on that. 4 : You're not allowed to 5 ghost count. Correct? 6 : No. No. There should have 7 been an outcount done. So, and this should 8 have been caught, whoever the shift lieutenant 9 was, because they have to, you know, on each 10 shift, conduct a count, and review the count 11 slips. 12 : Does this tell you 13 anything, though, that these were crossed off, 14 and these weren't? 15 : Yeah. Unless, I don't know 16 why -- 17 : Do you think that they 18 were replaced at a later date, or -? 19 : I mean, it gives the 20 appearance. Because at first, I would want to 21 know, why you cross out. Why these -- 22 : They cross out because, 23 as things come in -- 24 : No. 25 : -- you check it off. EFTA00059075

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 : So, that's what I want to 2 know. Like, whose habit is this? Like, okay, 3 I'm looking at -. 4 : So, basically, I think it's 5 standard practice, as a control officer? 6 : No. I mean, I've worked 7 control, and what I would do is, I would do the 8 check off, if I'm doing this. I've never -. 9 And that's people's style. 10 : Okay. 11 : That might be their style. 12 So, I just want to know -. 13 : This one is Cale 14 (Phonetic Sp. *02:28:46), I believe. 15 : Huh? 16 : Cale. 17 : So then 18 : This one. 19 then that's how Cale does 20 it. So, my question is then, why isn't this 21 done -- 22 : Right. 23 like that. I mean, 24 this, if Cale does it like that, then that's 25 his consistent way of checking it out. But if EFTA00059076

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 this is all on that shift 2 : But point being, you will 3 agree, this indicates that, from 4:00 p.m. on, 4 the counts were not conducted. Correct? 5 : No. They weren't done 6 right. 7 : The SHU counts? 8 : Yeah. 9 : Okay. Then we don't need 10 to really go into too much -- 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : -- detail with that. Is 13 this the first that you are seeing this? 14 : Yeah. I haven't seen that 15 before. 16 : Okay. 17 MR. HAYES: This was still on the counts? 18 : No. 19 : Now, we're going to move 20 on because the warden agrees that there is not 21 really reason to really dig further, because he 22 agrees this clearly shows that the counts were 23 not conducted in the SHU, from a certain time 24 on. 25 : Do you want to ask about the EFTA00059077

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 Fernandez key? 2 : What about it? 3 : Who's responsible? 4 : So, Fernandez -. Oh, can 5 you just - sorry - would you mind signing, 6 initialing and just dating? If Fernandez was 7 actually removed from the SHU -- 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- and placed onto R, you 10 know, RA dry cell, or R&D dry cell, oh, RA and 11 R&D are interchangeable. Correct? 12 : RA -- 13 : Because RA for - RA, I 14 believe, is what it shows in the count slip, 15 but it stands for the R&D -- 16 : That's the R&D -- 17 -- right? 18 area. I believe. Yeah. 19 : So, if he's actually 20 moved there around the 3:00 p.m., on August 21 9th, 2019, who would have been responsible for 22 keying him out of the SHU, and placing him into 23 the RA, so that the count would be accurately 24 reflected? 25 : SHU would have notified EFTA00059078

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 control center, that we are moving one over to 2 R&D. 3 : And by that notification, 4 do they also say, can you please key him out, 5 and into? Or is that just automatically done 6 by control? 7 : Well, the notification is 8 made to control that inmate such and such is 9 being placed on dry cell in R&D. And then, you 10 key the inmate to that area. 11 : Sure. 12 : So, I'll give you a quick 13 background. It looks like 14 MR. HAYES: Who is that? 15 : Right. 16 witnessed this. 17 : (Indiscernible 18 *02:31:02). 19 : Uh-huh. 20 : And he wrote up the shot. 21 : Right. 22 : And he called the lieutenant. 23 He requested the lieutenant. 24 : Right. 25 : And it looks like he EFTA00059079

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 requested the lieutenant, but he never notified 2 control -- 3 : Okay. 4 -- that an inmate was being 5 moved. Right? If - and I'm (Indiscernible 6 *02:31:20). 7 : Well, no, no, no, no. 8 wouldn't (Indiscernible *02:31:21) -- 9 : He doesn't recall -- 10 : I wouldn't -. 11 : But then, while the counts 12 are going on, there is somebody in R&D. So, 13 whoever is sitting in R&D should know that I 14 need to do a count slip because I have an 15 inmate down there. 16 MR. HAYES: Is this where somebody 17 disappears, that we're looking for? 18 : Right. 19 : Again, I told you, this 20 was more of an administrative thing. Just to 21 say what does the warden, you know, and the 22 boss of this place, what is his take on these 23 matters? Because as you have gathered, a lot 24 of things went wrong this day. So, we need to 25 figure out why these things went wrong. So, EFTA00059080

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 1 this is -. Let me just make sure, before we 2 move on, that I got everything. All right? 3 So, first, before we get into rounds, when a 4 lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- are they required to 7 conduct a round of the inmates going up and 8 down the different tiers, or does the round 9 consist of just checking in with the officers 10 to make sure everything is okay? 11 : Well, you check the officer 12 to make sure they are all right, and you check 13 the documentation. So, you check, you know, 14 you edit, you would have to review the post 15 orders also. To state what their duties are. 16 I mean, all of us had different, you know, I 17 was a lieutenant, so it was different things 18 you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make 19 sure, you know, the officers checked off, you 20 know, if the person ate or not. Any medical. 21 I would check to see if medical came up. So, 22 it would factor and depend on what shift you 23 went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates 24 are up, so you're going, you know, you can go 25 around. Evening shift, you can see what's EFTA00059081

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 going on. The midnight shift, they're 2 sleeping. But you are definitely checking a 3 30-minute log, to see if the inmates are doing 4 their 30-minute checks. And, you know, just 5 documentation. 6 : Now, as , did 7 you expect your lieutenants, though, to go down 8 range when they were doing their lieutenant 9 visits in the SHU? Their rounds. And this is 10 specifically when they are, like, signing off 11 on the different, like, on, as you can see, 12 this is what I'm going to be showing you. 13 These are round sheets that -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- you sent to Mr. 16 , where it shows the different 17 lieutenants signed on/off that they did their 18 round. 19 : But what does -- 20 : So, what does that -? 21 : -- what the lieutenants are 22 checking for is accuracy of the officer's 23 rounds. 24 : Okay. This is -. 25 : So, what they are checking EFTA00059082

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 is, okay, were the 30-minute infrequent checks 2 done? Now, if there is an easy, that they are 3 not being done, you know, so, you know, then it 4 needs to be annotated and said, okay, this is 5 what the issue was. But if they are signing 6 it, they are kind of acknowledging that, you 7 know, that the time that the round will put 8 down, that they were down. 9 : Now, what would be -? 10 This is the round, it looks like for 8/8. Can 11 you think of a reason why these wouldn't be 12 done? But they would be signed off on right 13 here? 14 : Let me see. So, if a 15 lieutenant made rounds and saw this thing was 16 empty like this, then it is a problem. 17 : Because you have this 18 8/8. And then, there is zero rounds showing 19 that they were conducted, but this lieutenant 20 signed it. 21 : That's a problem. 22 : The same thing. We go, 23 this whole thing. So, this whole shift looks 24 like they didn't even sign it until here. On 25 8/8. EFTA00059083

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 : Wait. Did you print these 2 off the logbook, or -? 3 : This is what you sent to 4 5 : Right. 6 : On Saturday, August 10th, 7 at 6:21 p.m. 8 : Now, the only other thing 9 can think of, and when I had gathered 10 something, I might have said, because the 11 checks are done at, like -. No, these are 30- 12 minute checks, so they -- 13 : This is also -- 14 : -- you know, these are -- 15 : -- this is the day, this 16 is two days before Epstein was found. 17 : -- no, this is -. No. 18 was thinking of the log. The log did it 19 electronic. But this, no. This 20 : We have the electronic 21 version. 22 : -- yeah. This is 23 : Which one? 24 no, this is -. That 25 means -- EFTA00059084

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 : So, this is just wrong? 2 yeah. This is wrong. 3 : Should have this 4 signed that? 5 : No. He should have signed 6 it. They should have put something -- 7 : Okay. 8 : -- listed as some 9 discrepancy, why the checks weren't done. 10 : And on these, whereas it 11 looks like, this lieutenant is signing, it 12 looks like probably because these are done. Do 13 you think that is the reason why this 14 individual hadn't signed these? Because these 15 weren't correct? 16 : Probably. I can't speculate 17 on that. 18 : Because it says -- 19 : I can't. 20 reviewed by morning 21 watch Where they do that, well, 22 that does start signing it here, 23 where they are now filled out. 24 : Right. 25 : For the same date. EFTA00059085

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 : So, this looks - hey, I 2 don't know who it was - but this looks 3 (Indiscernible *02:36:10) worked it. 4 : Okay. 5 : Let me see how those 30- 6 minute. That's the same one. I don't know who 7 it was. Who it was. 8 : Okay. So, that was 9 (Indiscernible *02:36:19). Certainly go look, 10 but whomever it was during those shift. And 11 then, we get into, it looks like, 12 (Indiscernible *02:36:30) still. And these. 13 Here is the 8/9. Where -- 14 : Right. 15 : -- it's signed off, 16 signed off, until 2:00 p.m. 17 : That's a problem. 18 : After that, no sign off. 19 Same thing. 20 : Yeah. 21 : That's just when I think 22 left his shift, or somewhere around 23 that time. So -. 24 MR. HAYES: The point of this, if I may 25 ask, is we got a miscount, right? EFTA00059086

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Mm-hmm. : We're not -- 3 MR. HAYES: This is -- 4 : -- we've moved on from 5 counts. Now we're on rounds. 6 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, counts. The 7 significance of the counts is, at some point, 8 Reyes disappears? 9 : No. The significance of 10 the counts is that, if inmates - or if the 11 staff members aren't conducting counts and - 12 counts are to the accountability of the 13 inmates, to make sure everybody is there. 14 MR. HAYES: Right. 15 : Rounds -- 16 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 17 : -- are basically to make 18 sure everyone is alive and breathing. Is that 19 correct, sir? 20 : You are right. Counts are 21 accountability, and then, the 30-minute checks 22 are basically safety checks. 23 : So, the point of these 24 questioning is, it looks like at - what we just 25 finished was counts - we have shown that the EFTA00059087

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 staff members were not conducting their counts. 2 : Right. 3 MR. HAYES: Right. Because that is why 4 you have 72 when it should be -- 5 : Now we are doing rounds. 6 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:37:41). 7 : To find out were the 8 staff members conducting their rounds. 9 MR. HAYES: Got it. 10 : And again, we have, in 11 this case, a very high-profile inmate that was 12 deceased. Became deceased at some point. 13 MR. HAYES: And they think -- 14 : And -- 15 MR. HAYES: -- plus it's whether they -- 16 : -- yeah, it -- 17 MR. HAYES: -- noticed on their rounds 18 that the guy was deceased. 19 : -- if they were 20 conducting -- 21 MR. HAYES: Or -. 22 : -- rounds at all. And if 23 they were conducting rounds, would that be - 24 and this is a question to you, like, we'll ask 25 you now, since I'm making that explanation - if EFTA00059088

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 they were conducting their rounds, would that 2 be a way to at least try to help ensure that 3 inmates such as Epstein were alive and well? I 4 know it's not going to prevent it in every 5 case, but is that part of the reason, to make 6 sure that, if they are conducting a round, you 7 are checking to see if they are alive, and they 8 are breathing. 9 : It is true, but I mean, and 10 because I mean, an inmate can, you know, you 11 can do your 30-minute rounds, and if they want 12 to do their harm to themselves, they are going 13 to do it. 14 : Right. And that goes 15 into play with why -- 16 MR. HAYES: They just 17 : Right. 18 MR. HAYES: -- they just look, they do 19 rounds by looking in their cell. 20 : Right. 21 MR. HAYES: So, if you want to -- 22 : To check. 23 MR. HAYES: -- do harm, you just wait 24 until they go passed your cell. 25 : Right. And then, you kind EFTA00059089

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 220 1 of figure out the timing of the route. But the 2 fact remains, if you are not showing on the 3 form that you did your rounds, then that's, 4 that's a problem. 5 : So, when you are looking 6 at these rounds that you sent , are 7 you finding problems because they are not 8 completed correctly? You know, what we just 9 looked through. In fact, you know, these are 10 August 10th. (Indiscernible *02:39:09), 11 they're not signed off. There's blocks that 12 are not filled in. 13 : Yeah. Looking at them now? 14 : Right. 15 : What is the question? 16 : Well, does it show you 17 that, at least this paperwork doesn't appear to 18 be filled out correctly? 19 : Yes. 20 : And that is for the 8th, 21 as well? 22 : Right. 23 : Okay. So, that was 24 MR. HAYES: And that is something, it was 25 your job to pass that on to EFTA00059090

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 : No. He requested -- 2 : No, no, no, no. 3 : -- the information. 4 : This is just to show that 5 6 : Yeah. 7 : -- what the round sheets 8 that sent to 9 were these rounds. So, it's just a matter of, 10 hey, do you know if these rounds were -? It 11 has nothing to do with his, you know, if he did 12 it right or not. It's, what his staff members 13 14 MR. HAYES: Right. 15 : -- doing it right. 16 MR. HAYES: Right. 17 : And who was responsible 18 to make sure the round sheets are done 19 correctly? 20 : Well, the staff working up 21 there are responsible. And then, the 22 supervisor is supposed to ensure that they are 23 doing it. 24 : And what is this? This 25 was also attached. What is that right there, EFTA00059091

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 that we are looking at? 2 : Hmm. 3 : TruScope logs? 4 : Yeah. This looks like 5 TruScope. This looks like the log. And so, 6 like, if they are doing what areas they search. 7 : And these are searches? 8 : Yeah. These looks like 9 searches. 10 : Okay. 11 : Let me see that. Search. 12 Did the areas. Visiting. Strip room. 13 Recreation area. Yeah. These are -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- these are search areas. 16 : Does it show anywhere in 17 there that there was any cells that were 18 searched, or are they just all, like, common 19 areas? 20 : No. They searched it. Look 21 how -. What is this? Nine South. SHU. 22 Completed all. These are, these looks like 23 everything they have done in there. The fire 24 and safety checks. This is - it looks like the 25 log. EFTA00059092

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 : Okay. So, this goes with 2 you. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : So, all to this. This is 5 something else that we asked for the BOP to 6 print out for us, and this one specifically one 7 we asked. When you send us the cell searches 8 that were conducted on 8/9/2019 -- 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- we got back one. By 11 Mr. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : It say that it was 14 conducted at 12:36 p.m. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : On 8/9/2019. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : Is that a problem? That 19 only one cell search was conducted in the SHU? 20 According to, at least according to TruScope. 21 : Because I believe the post 22 orders state it is supposed to be - and don't 23 quote me on it -- 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- you have to look at the EFTA00059093

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 224 1 post orders - but they state, I think five a 2 shift. A minimum of five. 3 : It's five, I believe -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- for the night watch. 6 The day watch, I believe, is more. And the 7 morning -- 8 MR. HAYES: They're supposed to do five 9 -- watch is just 10 (Indiscernible *02:41:59). 11 MR. HAYES: -- cell searches? 12 : No, no. Each shift is a 13 minimum of five. 14 : I don't think -- 15 : And then -- 16 : -- that includes that 17 morning watch, though -- 18 : -- the morning watch is -- 19 : -- because there's -- 20 : -- area. 21 : -- right. 22 : Yeah. You are 23 : Common areas. 24 : -- picking the common area. 25 MR. HAYES: So, let me get this clear. EFTA00059094

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 : Yeah. 2 MR. HAYES: You are supposed to do five 3 cell shifts, five cell searches per shift? 4 : Yes. That is 5 MR. HAYES: All right. And in this case, 6 there is only an indication that they did one? 7 : One. Right? 8 : One the whole day. 9 : One the day whole. 10 : Not per shift. The whole 11 day. 12 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, whose job is it 13 : No. 14 MR. HAYES: -- to say why aren't you doing 15 those? I was going to use the F word. Why 16 aren't you doing all the cell shifts? 17 : Well, this is, this is my 18 question to is, is that a problem, 19 that there was only one logged into TruScope? 20 : Mm-hmm. It is a problem. 21 : Does that indicate that 22 the cells were not being searched, to you? Or 23 that they just weren't logging them in? 24 : And again, whoever was 25 working that day, you're going to have to ask EFTA00059095

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 1 them. I mean -- 2 : And we have. 3 looking at 4 : And it was just -- 5 looking on paper, I mean, 6 it shows you didn't, you didn't conduct your 7 searches. 8 : Okay. 9 : I mean, now, there might 10 have been a reason where the person said, okay, 11 the computers were down or whatever, but it is 12 highly unlikely for -. 13 MR. HAYES: So, but you are literally 14 going into a cell and search it? Does that 15 mean -- 16 : Yeah, yeah. 17 MR. HAYES: -- you throw over the 18 mattresses, the whole thing? 19 : No. You pull them out. You 20 look at -- 21 MR. HAYES: Okay. 22 : -- look and check the 23 lockers. You check under their stuff. You 24 know, and you typically do it, like on certain 25 days when the guys are going out to take a EFTA00059096

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22- 1 shower, you might go out and do that. 2 : So, with your suggestion 3 that computers could be down and things like 4 that, as you can see from the email attachment 5 that you said, there are certainly plenty of 6 searches that were entered in there 7 : Oh. 8 : -- but there is only one 9 cell search. 10 : Right. 11 : And so, I would assume, 12 would that indicate that the computers are 13 actually up and running? 14 : Yes. So, this one, this is 15 the same day? 16 : What are you looking -- 17 : That could be (Indiscernible 18 *02:43:42). 19 : -- yeah, this should be 20 8/10, and 8/9 and 8/10. 21 : 8/9 -- 22 : I would think. 23 reg number. Reg number. 24 : It shows the dates here. 25 I just can't see them. EFTA00059097

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 : Yeah. Change base. Yeah. 2 This is a search one. This is the log. 3 : Okay. So, problematic, 4 in your opinion? 5 : Yes. It is. 6 : All right. So, not only 7 searching them, but is it equally as important 8 to actually log it in, as well, so that we know 9 whether things are being searched? 10 : Yes. You should log it. 11 : All right. Now, this, 12 this comes to the kind of question on this. 13 When Epstein was found, are you aware that he 14 was in a cell that didn't coincide with what 15 his inmate history quarters, and what the BOP 16 database said, where he should have been? He 17 was in the wrong cell. 18 : I did hear, afterwards, that 19 there were some issues with Sentry and the way 20 they keyed into the cells. 21 : All right. And what did 22 you hear? 23 : I think, just that the cell, 24 the way the inmates were being keyed in was 25 off, it didn't match this cell. EFTA00059098

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 : Right. 2 : That. 3 : So, yeah, his assigned 4 cell within the SOP database was not where he 5 was located -- 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : -- in person. At least 8 when he was found on August 10th, 2019. 9 : Right. 10 MR. HAYES: Now, is that something that is 11 - I should shut up, right? 12 : No, no. I'm good. 13 : Go ahead. 14 MR. HAYES: Now, is that something that 15 goes on up to you? Is that your responsibility 16 to see where guys are being celled? 17 : No. But I mean -- 18 : Yeah. Most of my 19 questions to him isn't that -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- it's his 22 responsibility, it's whose responsibility was 23 it? 24 MR. HAYES: Okay. Got it. 25 : And then -. EFTA00059099

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 : So, who should have made 2 sure that Epstein's cell, in the BOP database, 3 matched where he was physically located? 4 Because obviously, people get a hold of the 5 information that he wasn't in his assigned 6 cell. You know, that is just more reason to 7 people not trusting the government. So, we are 8 just trying to figure out -. 9 : Well, and this is not a 10 problem limited to one person. It is a problem 11 - and I think it is a Bureau-wide problem, as 12 far as specific keying in cells. I don't think 13 this was done in a malicious -. 14 : So, what happened here, 15 our investigation shows is that when he came 16 back from -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- from suicide, or 19 psychological observation, he was placed into 20 the cell that it shows on July 30th, on this 21 form. However, because his - is it CPAP 22 (Phonetic Sp. *02:46:24)? 23 : CPAP. 24 : His CPAP machine, the 25 cord didn't reach the plug. EFTA00059100

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 231 : Mm-hmm. : So, they had to move him 3 to a different cell. 4 : Right. 5 : So, from July 30th to 6 August 10th, he was in the incorrectly assigned 7 cell. No one ever caught that. No one ever, 8 you know, and my thought being is, well, if 9 they are doing their cell searches -- 10 : Oh, I thought you meant -- 11 : -- wouldn't -. 12 : -- the cell didn't match up 13 with -- 14 : No, no, they -- 15 : -- (Indiscernible 16 *02:46:52). 17 : -- they logged him into 18 the cell that he was placed in, coming out of 19 psychological observation. 20 : Right. 21 : On the 30th. Then, they 22 physically moved him to a different cell. 23 : Right. 24 : On the 30th. Because his 25 CPAP machine wasn't, the cord didn't reach. EFTA00059101

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 MR. HAYES: What is a CPAP machine? 2 : It's the snore -. It's 3 to help you breathe when you are sleeping. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. HAYES: And he needed a CPAP machine? 6 : Yes, sir. 7 : For the snoring. 8 : So -- 9 MR. HAYES: Don't call me sir. Please. 10 I'm old. All right? You're reminding me. 11 : And so, no one ever went 12 back into the system from, all the way from the 13 30th up to August 10th, and made that 14 correction. 15 : Right. 16 : Who was responsible for 17 that? 18 : So, whoever made the cell 19 change should have contacted control center. 20 : And is the control center 21 that actually made the change, not the 22 individuals in SHU, or the SHU 23 : No. The -- 24 : Because my understanding 25 it would have been the SHU or the EFTA00059102

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 OIC. 2 : Bed changes? 3 : To verify their cellmates 4 where were the Wherever the BOP databases 5 said they are. 6 : So, you have to, you would 7 have to call control center to make that 8 change. 9 : Okay. So, who should 10 have called the control center? 11 : Whoever made the change in 12 Sentry. Because I - and then, don't quote me 13 if I'm wrong - because I don't believe SHU 14 staff have control over keying where an inmate 15 is in. 16 : Yeah. No. I thought the 17 OIC might, or the that the SHU -- 18 : No, because -- 19 would. 20 : -- in that case, beds would 21 be really messed up. 22 : Right, right, right. 23 : So, the control center is a 24 centralized area. 25 : Okay. EFTA00059103

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 234 1 : So, a call should have been 2 made down to control, saying, hey, this is 3 where he's being keyed to, and this is what -. 4 : And who should have made 5 that call? 6 : Whoever made the change. 7 Whoever switched him. 8 : And my understanding is 9 that the OIC and the SHU were 10 supposed to review cell assignments, to make 11 sure inmates were in their assigned cells, at 12 least on a periodical basis. Is that correct? 13 : Yeah. You do a, what we 14 call a bed book check, to make sure. Because 15 your board, you know, when you are in the unit, 16 you have a board up there, and you just match 17 where everyone is at. 18 : And how often should that 19 happen? 20 : There is no set policy, but 21 as a good practice, you know, you kind of want 22 to check what your open cells are, where, you 23 know, where individuals are. And should it 24 also be checked if they were doing cell 25 searches? Would that be caught, if they were EFTA00059104

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 doing searches? 2 : Well, if you are doing a 3 cell search, all you are going to do is put 4 down the cell number, and the individual in it. 5 It wouldn't -. You wouldn't necessarily be 6 able to find out if it is the correct room. 7 : Okay. 8 : And the correct bed in 9 Sentry. 10 : All right. 11 : But, you know -. 12 : So, in this instance, 13 then, and I'll shut up so I can actually let 14 you answer, who -- 15 MR. HAYES: I have the same problem. 16 : -- who is it that should 17 have notified control center to make this 18 change? It sounds like you said whoever 19 physically moved him, at the time? 20 : So, what happens is, whoever 21 physically moved him should have said, okay, 22 this is where, you know, you are, this is where 23 we are moving him. And then, you let the - 24 typically - the OIC know, and then, they will 25 call down to control center. EFTA00059105

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 1 : And if that didn't -. 2 MR. HAYES: Can I speak to my client for a 3 second? 4 : Yeah. 5 : Sure. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : Do you want me 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- do you want me to push 10 pause? 11 : No. 12 MR. HAYES: Yeah, no. I'll take him to 13 the other -. 14 : Okay. 15 : Sure. Okay. It's 4:46 16 p.m., and this is Senior Special Agent 17 Matulewicz, and I'm pushing pause. 18 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 19 off the record and back on the record). 20 : The recorder is back on. 21 It is 4:53 p.m., after a short break. And I 22 remind you, sir, you are still under oath. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : All right. So, we 25 stopped with the, we were talking about who was EFTA00059106

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 responsible for making sure Mr. Epstein was 2 logged into the correct cell within the -- 3 : Question. 4 -- BOP database system. 5 : Were there other cells that 6 were wrong? 7 : Do you know that, 8 : Not We don't know if -. 9 This, we know only because we checked this. 10 : Okay. So, I mean, 11 everything else could have been right, and that 12 could have been a -- 13 : No. Well, we found out, 14 this is the reason was because, again, he was 15 placed into that cell, and then moved because 16 of the CPAP machine. 17 : No. I was -- 18 : Well, our question was 19 : -- you know, wondering if it 20 is a systematic, or an individual problem. 21 : Correct. 22 : That's why I was just 23 curious. 24 : Yeah. And that's 25 something that we should probably -. EFTA00059107

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 MR. HAYES: Well, and my question is, does 2 that have any effect on count? I mean, they 3 still should be able to look in the cells if 4 there was a (Indiscernible *02:51:28). 5 : Well, when -- 6 : Well, the problem comes 7 in, again, I think is the credibility of, hey, 8 now we have Epstein, who was found in a cell, 9 and it's not his assigned cell. So, that just, 10 you know -- 11 MR. HAYES: But I'm saying -- 12 : -- the media says all of 13 these things that went wrong. 14 MR. HAYES: -- yeah. 15 : One being -- 16 MR. HAYES: I've had that. 17 wait, he's not even in 18 the right cell. Well, how did that happen, and 19 who was responsible? 20 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, so, my question 21 is, does it make any difference? I mean, if 22 they are supposed to do the count, the count is 23 you look in the cell, and see -- 24 : Right. 25 MR. HAYES: -- whether there's a guy in EFTA00059108

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 there. Well, whatever number he's in, or he's 2 not in, he's still in his cell. 3 : No. Correct. 4 MR. HAYES: You know? 5 : But because we are doing 6 this deep dive review -- 7 MR. HAYES: Okay. I gotcha. 8 : -- it's showing these 9 different, you know -- 10 MR. HAYES: Got it. Okay. 11 : -- and again, this is, 12 this is one of those things -- 13 MR. HAYES: You're just being extra 14 careful. Yeah. It's (Indiscernible 15 *02:52:14). 16 : -- and not like 17 (Indiscernible *02:52:15). Yeah. We just have 18 to, we have to address the fact that -- 19 MR. HAYES: He wasn't in the right cell. 20 : -- Mr. Epstein wasn't in 21 the cell that he was assigned to. 22 MR. HAYES: Okay. I mean, it's not just 23 that. Someone (Indiscernible *02:52:22) that 24 he said, oh, he doesn't have a roommate, and, 25 you know, by the way, we also counted the wrong EFTA00059109

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE _1 - 1 number of prisoners. 2 : Right. 3 MR. HAYES: That's a lot of mistakes. 4 : Right. And we haven't 5 even gotten involved. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : As I'm sure you know. 8 But -- 9 MR. HAYES: Right. 10 : -- so, after the person 11 who moved him didn't contact and have this 12 changed, how would have, then, how would we, 13 then, how would have anyone found out that he 14 was in the wrong cell? What processes are in 15 place to ensure that where they are matches up 16 with the actual database? 17 : Well, I guess if they were 18 doing -- 19 : You said bed book counts? 20 : -- yeah. Usually, you could 21 do, you do your bed book counts, to ensure, you 22 know, that every inmate is in the cell that 23 they are supposed to be. When you are updating 24 your accountability board, you would look and 25 see, okay, you got him here, where is he at? EFTA00059110

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 And then, match it up with, you know, with 2 Sentry. 3 : And who would be doing 4 those things? 5 : The staff working up there 6 in SHU. 7 : Is the , the 8 SHU , at all involved, as far as you 9 know, in making sure that this is all accurate? 10 : Well, he was spearheading it 11 to make sure everything was -- 12 MR. HAYES: He was the supervisor. 13 : -- was right. Yeah. He was 14 the supervisor. But going in and saying, okay, 15 let's, did this happen? Have we done this? 16 And have we done that? 17 : Okay. 18 MR. HAYES: And -. Okay. Just to make me 19 clear, somebody dropped the ball as to whether 20 or not he should have a, he had a roommate. 21 : Right. 22 MR. HAYES: Okay. And somebody dropped 23 the ball as to whether he was in the right 24 cell. 25 : Right. EFTA00059111

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 MR. HAYES: Okay. And then, somebody 2 would have dropped the ball as to either, 3 dropped the ball or they maliciously didn't 4 find out that he wasn't on the count. They had 5 said we did a count, but they didn't notice 6 that, or didn't - that he wasn't breathing, you 7 know what I mean? 8 : Right. 9 MR. HAYES: Okay. That starts to be a 10 problem. 11 : So, just pointed 12 out to me. On the after-action review -- 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : -- they did review this. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : And it says that, 17 according to their review -- 18 : Right. 19 : -- this is not my review. 20 : Right. 21 : Or review. 22 "Significant discrepancies exist within Sentry 23 regarding cell quarters assignments." QRT. 24 QTR. "Although it is well documented, inmate 25 Epstein was housed with two other inmates EFTA00059112

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 during his assignment in the SHU. Sentry does 2 not reflect this information accurately. 3 Inmate Epstein was found within cell 220, that 4 Sentry never reflects him being housed within 5 that cell at any time." But to answer your 6 question, the first sentence says that there is 7 significant -- 8 : Okay. 9 : -- discrepancies. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : The way that I read that 12 is, overall, whether they are referring to 13 specifically Epstein -- 14 : Epstein. 15 : -- that, I am not able to 16 determine -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- based upon that 19 sentence, but it does sound like, overall, that 20 they had some discrepancies. So, 21 Rice would have supervised it, but it's really 22 the staff that would be responsible for doing 23 these bed book counts, and making sure 24 assignments are -- 25 : Yeah. He did it right there EFTA00059113

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21_ 1 2 : -- the inmates are in 3 their assigned -? 4 : -- and then, whoever is 5 moving an inmate from a cell to a cell, you 6 make the notification. 7 : And is it surprising to 8 you that almost two weeks later, that wasn't 9 caught? 10 : At two weeks later from 11 where? 12 : From -. He was placed 13 into the cell on July 30th, 2019. He's found 14 August 10th, 2019. That entire time, it was 15 never caught that he was not -- 16 : In the right cell. 17 : -- locked in the right 18 cell. 19 : Yeah. 20 : Is that a significant 21 amount of time that went by without catching 22 that? 23 : Without catching it. It is. 24 : Now, is that, you know, 25 all staff that was in there, or is it, like, EFTA00059114

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 really -? 2 : And again, and you probably 3 have to speak to the captain who was 4 responsible for doing the checks, and doing the 5 count. 6 : So, would the captain 7 have some responsibility on this, too? 8 : Well, did the captain is in 9 charge of correctional services. So, that is 10 the unit he is over. 11 : Okay. 12 : So, he has overall 13 responsibility to make sure, you know, in 14 conjunction with the , that the unit 15 is running the way it is supposed to run. 16 : And what should have the 17 captain done in order to make sure that that 18 was accurate? 19 : Well, now, there is 20 different ways of finding out if stuff is 21 accurate. Like, you have the perpetual audit 22 system. Where they are responsible - the 23 lieutenants - are responsible to conduct 24 perpetual audits. So, you can find out through 25 those, when you do it. And they are usually EFTA00059115

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 quarterly. But if there is discrepancies and 2 things are going on in that department of 3 correctional services, we have what we call 4 perpetual audits, which he maintained the 5 records of, and that is another checks and 6 balance where you would find out if something 7 is wrong. 8 : And how often are those 9 done? 10 : Those are done quarterly. 11 : Quarterly? 12 : Yeah. 13 : All right. So, the fact 14 that this is, we are talking about, like, ten 15 or 11 days, there is a good chance that they 16 weren't done during that time period? Or do 17 you know when they would be done? Are they 18 done, like, on a certain date? 19 : What, the quarterly? 20 : Yeah. 21 : It's - and I don't know when 22 the dates of the quarter starts - but that is 23 to your checks and balance. You know -- 24 : Right. 25 : -- you do your perpetual EFTA00059116

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 1 audits, and then you catch it, and say, oh, 2 wow. We did an audit. And this is wrong. And 3 then, you come up with the corrective action to 4 fix it. 5 : So, that's how the 6 captain could have determined, I guess -- 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- but how, in those 9 : The captain would find out. 10 : -- ten or 11 days, how 11 would have that been caught? 12 : Again, you would have to see 13 your, your inmate accountability board. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : You know, are you matching 16 Sentry, if you are pulling off Sentry and 17 matching it with what is on the board. 18 : But - and I apologize 19 that I'm beating -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- a dead horse here, 22 but, like, who does that? 23 : Again, I don't know who, you 24 know, who the assigned it to, who 25 the OIC. You know, everybody has different EFTA00059117

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 1 duties, and -- 2 : So, it is not like -- 3 different ways that work. 4 : -- not like morning watch 5 does this, or it's just based upon what passed 6 down from lieutenant to the OIC -- 7 : Right. Like, what -- 8 : -- to whoever. 9 : -- no, but basically, when 10 you decide to do it. You know, I mean, I can't 11 see, on the midnight shift, you are doing an 12 accountability check like that, because the 13 guys are sleeping, and, you know, you are 14 looking for a living, breathing body, but you 15 can't physically see them. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : You know, so, what shift was 18 picked to check and say, okay, let's make sure 19 our cell, the accountability in the cell. So, 20 I can't -- 21 : You can't really answer 22 the question. 23 : I can't really speak -. 24 : Sure. That's fine. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059118

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 1 : All right. Let's get 2 this stuff out of your way. If you don't mind, 3 this -- 4 MR. HAYES: Am I right that we are getting 5 close to the bottom of the pile? 6 : We are. We are getting 7 close. 8 MR. HAYES: Because Jesus Christ, I can't 9 take this. L-O-L. (Indiscernible *02:58:29). 10 : We are -. (Indiscernible 11 *02:58:31) with this. 12 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : So, this is the email 15 with all the rounds, and the SHU assignment. 16 And these were separate. 17 MR. HAYES: Now, let me ask the question 18 (Indiscernible *02:58:48) the supervisors. 19 Your job is the prison. It's your job to look 20 down into the prison, as far as these counts 21 and, you know, accountability boards, and so 22 forth. 23 : No. I mean, that is what 24 you have a captain for and a lieutenant for. 25 (Indiscernible *02:59:06). You know? EFTA00059119

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 MR. HAYES: Okay. 2 : And then, we touched on 3 this before, but this is an email that the 4 captain sent to you. 5 : Right. 6 : Regarding the lieutenant 7 rounds on 8/9 to 8/10. He sent them, he sent 8 this email on August 11th, 2019. He said, 9 here are the lieutenant rounds 10 for 8/9 to 8/10. Below are the workstations 11 logged on to complete rounds." 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : But again, for you, a 14 lieutenant round, and I don't know if we ever 15 came to that conclusion, or that we may have 16 got off topic on that. But a lieutenant round 17 is used primarily to check in, and it's not 18 necessarily to go down the different ranges? 19 : On the midnight shift. So, 20 they typically not, you know, unless they have 21 an issue, but like you said, you as a 22 lieutenant can walk - should walk - around and 23 see. Now, the midnight shift is hard, but the 24 other shifts, you, you know, walk around, see 25 what's going on. EFTA00059120

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 1 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 2 : All right. So, should 3 they, though, be walking down the ranges on 4 both the morning, or the day watch and the 5 night watch? Evening watch. 6 : This is what I will say. 7 You probably got to look at the post orders and 8 see -- 9 : Yeah. The post orders 10 : -- the post orders. 11 : -- aren't clear with 12 that. 13 : Yeah. 14 : We haven't -- 15 : So, it's not -. 16 : -- we haven't been able 17 to -- 18 : It's not -- 19 : -- specifically 20 determine. 21 : -- that's what I mean, it's 22 not a requirement. 23 : Okay. 24 : You know, for the 25 (Indiscernible *03:00:26), they are in there, EFTA00059121

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 252 1 making rounds, checking the books, to see if 2 you got a problem on the range. You would call 3 that. But most lieutenants do, you know, just 4 walk the ranges. Just to see what is going on. 5 : Because most lieutenants 6 that we talked to -- 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- said that they were 9 absolutely required to do -- 10 : Right. 11 : -- a round, just like a 12 SHU staff member -- 13 : Right. 14 : -- was to do a round. 15 Some lieutenants -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- specifically, 18 lieutenants that worked that day -- 19 : Right. 20 : -- said, nope, there's n- 21 requirement to do that. 22 : But -- 23 : So, that's where I'm, as 24 25 : Well -- EFTA00059122

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : -- who is right? : No. The expectation is, 2`? 3 like you hit any unit, you make your rounds 4 within the unit. The SHU unit is no different. 5 That you say, hey, I'm going to go in there, 6 make sure everything is, you know, check on the 7 inmates. And make sure they are fine. But if 8 we are talking about the post orders, were they 9 required to? The post, you know, the post 10 orders, I don't believe had the requirement 11 that they have to, you know 12 : Okay. 13 : -- physically go in the 14 (Indiscernible *03:01:24). 15 : So, does that - if I 16 understand you correctly - the expectation was 17 that they conduct a round, just like a SHU 18 staff member, but there is no requirement to do 19 so? 20 : Yeah. You should be walking 21 around. 22 : All right. 23 : To see if everything 24 : But it's not like you 25 told them, you gave them a directive, make sure EFTA00059123

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you are doing this. 2 : No. 3 : So, there is no -- 4 : No. 5 : -- so, if someone wasn't 6 doing it, it's not like something they would be 7 disciplined for? 8 : See, that's hard. I mean, 9 to say you would discipline. There is a 10 difference between what is written down, and 11 what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are 12 coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, I 13 want to see what's going around the unit. 14 might ask the officer, all right, do we have 15 any problems. The inmates, when you come on, 16 hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, 17 lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are 18 going down the ranges. You know, so, when you 19 are going down the range, you are seeing 20 something. You get to another range. The 21 inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, 22 it is something you should be doing as part of 23 your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just 24 walking around, to make sure everything is -. 25 : But if you were still the EFTA00059124

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 255 1 warden of the MCC, and found out that your 2 lieutenants, when they were signing off on 3 doing rounds -- 4 : Right. 5 : -- and you found out that 6 they were only checking in with the staff 7 members, and they were not actually walking 8 down the ranges, is that something that you 9 would find problematic? 10 : I would correct it. 11 : And when you say correct 12 it, what do you mean by that? 13 : I would tell, you know, get 14 with the captain, and I would tell the captain 15 they need to be, you know, in inmate grounds, 16 they need to walk the ranges. 17 : So, they should be 18 walking the ranges, then? 19 : Off of the post orders, it' , 20 not in there, you know -- 21 : I know. I -- 22 : -- any place saying that you 23 have to do it. But as a supervisor, that like 24 any unit you walk on, you want to see what is 25 going on in the unit. So, do I want to use the EFTA00059125

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 word "sound correctional judgment"? You know, 2 just to see, as a supervisor, what is going on. 3 I mean, you have some people that go above and 4 beyond. And then, do their job, and you have 5 some people that want to do the bare minimum. 6 But that is something 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 from a rounds point of 9 view, I would say you need to make those 10 rounds. 11 MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me ask you a 12 question. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. HAYES: You do the rounds. Does that 15 mean literally walk up and down this, what we, 16 what I would call the cell block? 17 : Yeah. You walk around the 18 unit. You know, you are interacting with 19 inmates. You are talking to inmates. Same 20 thing with the inmates in SHU. You know, you 21 are walking around. Hey, what's going on? 22 : So, what you are not 23 familiar with is the way the SHU is set up. 24 : Right. 25 : There is different EFTA00059126

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 levels, and there is different -- 2 MR. HAYES: Yeah, I've been to the SHU. 3 : -- hallways. 4 MR. HAYES: Know what I remember about the 5 SHU? It's fucking cold. 6 : Right. 7 : Yeah. So, like, if you 8 are just, you can simply go in and go to the 9 officer's station, and check in with the staff 10 and say -- 11 : Right. 12 : -- everything good? You 13 got all your paperwork in order? All your 14 paperwork is actually right here on the desk. 15 Did you find it problematic that they are 16 keeping all of their round sheets on the desk 17 versus on the ranges themselves? 18 : Different places do it 19 different ways. 20 : Okay. 21 : Some -- 22 : So -. 23 : -- some places have it, they 24 keep it at the end of the range, and you sign 25 it. Some have it right there, the log, you EFTA00059127

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 1 know, take the logbook and they just sign it. 2 So -. 3 : So, the individuals, the 4 ops lieutenants and activities lieutenant that 5 we spoke to, that worked on August 9th and 6 August 10th -- 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- a majority of them 9 said, if not all of them, no, no, no, all I 10 needed to do was go to that officer's station, 11 check in with my officers, make sure their 12 paperwork is done, and then I left. Every 13 other that we talked to said, no. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : When you sign that paper, 16 you are signing it just like you conducted a 17 round, as if the SHU staff conducted a round. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : You had to go down every 20 range -- 21 : Right. 22 : -- make sure everything 23 was good to go. You are not just checking on. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : So, what we are trying to EFTA00059128

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 1 say is, which one is right? 2 : Well, now, for the ones that 3 are saying that I don't have to go down and 4 check every range, they are going off the post 5 office. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : The ones that are doing 8 their job, they are going around and checking 9 every time. 10 : Okay. 11 : Making sure the wellbeing of 12 the inmates, and you are checking on the 13 wellbeing of your staff. 14 : All right. So, it kind 15 of sounds like nobody is right, and nobody is 16 wrong? They need to change the post orders? 17 : Well, they would, they would 18 have - should put in -- 19 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 20 : -- their post orders, but 21 they should be going around, and 22 MR. HAYES: So, they should have a rule 23 : -- the wellness check. 24 MR. HAYES: -- that says, you got to go 25 around? EFTA00059129

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 : Yeah. 2 : Okay. 3 : So. 4 : So, no one technically 5 did anything wrong. They should just really do 6 it? 7 : They should. They should 8 just do it. 9 : Okay. Fair enough. 10 : The term used was "sound 11 correctional judgment." 12 : Yes. 13 : All right. So, that - 14 again - was that email from to you, with 15 the lieutenant rounds. 16 MR. HAYES: Damn. That pile is a lot 17 lower. 18 : Unless you want to go right 19 back on it. 20 : Now, this says -- 21 MR. HAYES: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. 22 I'm fucking out of here. If you bring that 23 pile back, I'm out of here. Now, I'm going to 24 give you some of that money back, but I can't 25 take this shit no more. EFTA00059130

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 1 : So, this one says it's 2 from Norman Reed. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : To you. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : Who is Norman Reed? 7 : He aws a unit manager there 8 for the PCU Unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:23). 9 : Okay. At the MCC? 10 : Yeah. 11 : It says, subject, "Weekly 12 rounds -- 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : -- as requested." 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : So, these are weekly 17 rounds from August 4th, 10, 2019. What is that 18 for? 19 : That was for our wit sec 20 unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:34). 21 : Oh, okay. 22 : Yeah. 23 : So, you actually had your 24 own separate wit sec unit? 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059131

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 262 1 : So, that is not in SHU? 2 Or is it? 3 : Huh? No. That's not in 4 SHU. That is a separate unit all together. 5 : So, why was this 6 provided? For any reason? 7 : Because I like to I used 8 to like to track who was making their rounds 9 and not making their rounds. 10 : All right. 11 : So, they had to send it to 12 me every week. 13 : So, was this just 14 coincidental? Nothing to do with Epstein? 15 : Yeah. This had nothing to 16 do with him. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : This was probably what he 19 had to send up that week. 20 : Okay. 21 : It was the end of the week. 22 : Okay. 23 : So, that's what he sent. 24 So, that had nothing to do with him. 25 : So, this has nothing to EFTA00059132

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 253 1 do with Epstein. 2 : No. 3 : All right. I'm not even 4 going to -- 5 : Yeah. 6 : -- you can keep that over 7 here, so we don't get that confused. 8 : Yeah. 9 : Alright. So, this one. 10 As far as this one, it says, from you to Mr. 11 . It says SHU rounds. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : What SHU rounds are we 14 looking at here? This is a new document here. 15 : Okay. This is on -. This 16 is eight, for the -- 17 : This is for executive 18 staff -- 19 : -- the week starting at 20 eight -- 21 : or-? 22 : -- this is starting for 8/4 23 rounds. So, this is, these are my rounds that 24 I'm doing. 25 : Now, is there some kind EFTA00059133

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 1 of a requirement that you conduct rounds? 2 : Yeah. is 3 supposed to go up and go -. 4 : So, you are supposed to 5 conduct rounds in the SHU? 6 : Yeah. About once -- 7 : Or is this -- 8 a week. Like, you can go 9 up as many times, but, you know, is 10 supposed to be going. 11 : All right. 12 MR. HAYES: Now, that means you are 13 supposed to conduct rounds in the SHU? 14 : Yeah. I go in the SHU. I 15 walk around and do rounds in every area of the 16 institution. So. 17 : And is everyone on here 18 supposed to do a round weekly? Because I have 19 never seen this round sheet until reviewing 20 your emails. 21 : No. This is every Bureau 22 institution has this. This is where you sign 23 into the Special Housing Unit. This is the 24 log. And this is showing that they made their 25 rounds. So, these are the lieutenants right EFTA00059134

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 1 here, showing that they made their rounds. So, 2 at the end of the week, when they send me the 3 round sheet, and let's say it looked like this, 4 my question would be, okay, did they make 5 rounds, or did they forget to make rounds? 6 : Is this and this the same 7 thing? 8 : For the lieutenants, it 9 would be. 10 : Just the lieutenants? 11 And no one else? 12 : Yeah. No one else. This is 13 computer services. The duty officer has to go 14 up there. 15 : Now, so -- 16 : Right there. 17 : -- this shows that you 18 did two rounds. 19 : Right. 20 : And you are only required 21 to do one. Correct? 22 : Yeah. 23 : II programs. 24 : That, she did it on Friday. 25 : So, the fact that II EFTA00059135

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 1 operations has nothing in there, is that 2 problematic? 3 : And here is the other thing 4 could have happened. A lot of times, they make 5 the rounds, sometimes they forget to initial 6 and sign it. 7 : All right. 8 : So, what I would do is, I 9 would look at it and say, okay, when I got at 10 the end of the week, what happened? How come 11 you didn't make rounds? 12 : So, all of these blank 13 spaces, were these people supposed to be doing 14 rounds in SHU? 15 : Not everybody is required. 16 They should have been up there, but they are 17 not required. Like, the finance facility -- 18 MR. HAYES: The correctional judgment 19 : -- food services. 20 MR. HAYES: -- would be they could go up 21 to that. 22 : But health services has to 23 make rounds. 24 : You're getting it. 25 : The PA's. EFTA00059136

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 1 2 3 4 MR. HAYES: By the end of the day, man, I'll be ready to go to MCC myself. I hated going to prison. : Psychology. You know? 5 : So, which ones on here 6 that are actually required to conduct rounds? 7 : You have the unit team 8 that's supposed to go up. The lieutenants. 9 : Well, SIS, it doesn't 10 appear that they did any rounds. 11 : That's -. 12 : But I'm assuming they 13 certainly should have. Correct? 14 : SIS should have been up 15 there, to go around. So, and again, I would 16 look at it and see who was on leave. Somebody 17 might have been on leave, not on leave. 18 : And what are - so, when 19 these type of individuals, it looks like more 20 high level such as, I mean, obviously, you are 21 the highest level, what is a warden round look 22 like? Do you all have to walk down the range, 23 or -- 24 : So, what I -- 25 : -- is that what you do? EFTA00059137

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 1 : -- what I do is, I walk 2 around and I go to every cell, and I talk to 3 the guy, got any issues, any problems? 4 They're, like, no, I'm good. You might have 5 some that say, hey, I'm up here for an 6 investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up 7 here? So, I take my little notes. Okay. 8 Fine. Some of it I can address right there, 9 some of it I can't. But I would typically walk 10 around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, 11 that is the reason why you are up there. Why 12 am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, 13 you go by it, it says -- 14 MR. HAYES: It's because you are a fucking 15 mass murderer, that's why you're up here. 16 : -- and, like, you know why 17 you are locked up. And then, they would say, 18 well, how come the investigation is taking so 19 long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, 20 if it was an OIG investigation. It would 21 depend. So, you know, I would usually tell 22 them, like, you know, it's an outside agency 23 handling. We are in contact with them. And 24 somebody will come see you. 25 : Okay. EFTA00059138

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 1 : Some could be up for 2 administrative, like an incident report. 3 : So, you went through and 4 talked to everybody, but were you required to 5 do that, or is it just because you just were a 6 good employee? 7 : I mean, that's what you 8 should be doing. 9 : That's what you should 10 do. But I mean, like you talked about before, 11 well, the post orders don't say that. 12 : Well, I don't have post 13 orders. 14 : Right. 15 : Yeah. So, I mean -- 16 : But you are But 17 something does say that you are required to do 18 it once a week? 19 : There's nothing in writing 20 to tell me you have to do it. But just like 21 visit every area, I have to, I visit every area 22 of the institution. You know, make sure I see 23 every employee going there on the off shifts. 24 I would go on the off shifts, you know, to see 25 the staff, but it's -- EFTA00059139

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 1 MR. HAYES: It's a surprise. In other 2 words, you are not telling them you are coming, 3 you are just going. 4 : Yeah. I'm coming up. I'm 5 making my rounds. I'm sitting, talking to 6 staff. What's your issues? I mean, it's more 7 the issue of them just work. I mean 8 : So, when you say there's 9 nothing in writing, saying that you should do 10 it, or is there something in writing saying 11 these people that didn't do it, that they 12 should have done it? 13 : No. And there could be 14 reasons. Now, they - and this is what I would 15 get the report and look into - like, there are 16 people that make the rounds, they come up to 17 SHU but they forget to sign in. 18 : Right. 19 : So, when I get the report, I 20 would, you know, talk to the captain, that this 21 the entrance log, and say, hey, why didn't such 22 and such make a round? Now, that • might have 23 been out that week, and I had this one covering 24 both. So, they came up with the II 25 : Now, is there any way to EFTA00059140

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2-1 1 determine, like, these people that, for 2 instance, visited on Friday, what time they 3 visited? Because this is the day that Reyes 4 was gone. So, it says the captain was in there 5 on Friday. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : Should have he noticed 8 that Reyes wasn't there? 9 : Not necessarily. If he 10 didn't go down range. And he could have come 11 up, and remember, we have Ten South that's 12 connected. So, I don't know if he came up 13 there, you know, for an issue for Ten South. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : So, I don't know. And then, 16 him making his rounds, even if he's making his 17 rounds, you are going to have empty cells on 18 the range. 19 : Oh, you will? 20 : Yeah. Well, somebody -- 21 : Even if - 22 : -- somebody could be at 23 medical. Somebody could be on an attorney 24 visit. 25 : So, it wouldn't -- EFTA00059141

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 272 : So -. : -- it wouldn't caused a 3 red flag, you don't think, if he saw, like, 4 Epstein's cell empty? 5 : Well, if empty cell is 6 empty, the first thing you're saying, he's down 7 on attorney visit. Because the rounds are made 8 during the daytime. 9 : And in that note, would 10 they say, though, because it says 11 and it looks like was there, too -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- should have those two 14 people, if they actually did a round, say 15 Epstein is down there, but where is Reyes? 16 : I mean, they could have. 17 mean, but Reyes could have been in the shower. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : You know? I mean 20 : But it wouldn't be 21 something that would be normally asked? 22 : No. 23 : It was, like, oh -- 24 : Hmm-mm. 25 : -- Epstein, high-profile EFTA00059142

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 273 1 guy, where is his cellmate? That wouldn't be - 2 3 : No. I mean -- 4 : No. 5 : -- you're just saying, okay, 6 Epstein is downstairs, his, you know, or maybe 7 his cellmate was in, in, in attorney visit, it 8 could have been on a shower day. He could have 9 been in rec. 10 : Okay. 11 : I mean -. 12 : So, you are more 13 concerned about the people that are there, as 14 opposed to who weren't there, it sounds like 15 that? To check in with them. 16 : That, I mean, you want to 17 see, making sure you are around, making rounds, 18 talking to everyone. So, I don't know what, 19 you know, what the thought process is, or, you 20 know, if somebody was in the shower or not. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : So. 23 : Sure. No. And I'm not 24 trying -- 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059143

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 274 1 : -- to get you to say 2 that. 3 MR. HAYES: How many days a week can you 4 take a shower when you're in -? 5 6 : The entire of three times. Monday. Typically, it's Monday, Wednesday, and 7 Friday. 8 : And what about this one? 9 This one is from Norman Reed to you. Weekly 10 rounds on August 12th, 2019. Is this 11 : The PCU. 12 : -- is this -? So, this 13 is the same thing? 14 : That's the PCU unit. Wit 15 sec unit. 16 : The wit sec unit. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : All right. So, this 19 might be the exact same thing as -. Oh, this 20 is what I did (Indiscernible *03:14:50). 21 Sorry. All right. That sounds good. Do you 22 mind just initialing and dating that? 23 MR. HAYES: Now, we are getting close to 24 the end. 25 : Hmm. EFTA00059144

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 1 you had two 2 follow up questions before we move on. Why 3 don't you ask those? 4 : If, if the counts and the 5 rounds were done -- 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 as they were supposed to 8 be done, let's say in the afternoon, by the SHU 9 C.O.s, would they have caught the fact that 10 Epstein's cell was empty, and inmate Reyes was 11 actually not where he was supposed to be? In. 12 terms of that, if he was assigned, if Epstein 13 was required to have a cellmate, and Reyes was 14 transferred, would they have caught onto the 15 fact that Epstein needed a cellmate? 16 : I don't understand what 17 : Let's say Reyes was 18 transferred, right? 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : If the counts and the rounds 21 were done, in the afternoon, the 4:00 p.m. 22 count, the rounds in between, if they were 23 done, would the SHU C.O.s have caught on to the 24 fact that Reyes was missing from the cell? 25 : But they already knew that. EFTA00059145

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : If the word of mouth -. 2 : So, the claim is -- 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 made up that 5 stuff in the memo. And Davis says 6 never told me that. 7 : Right. 8 : That they say that's 9 bullshit, and he's lying. 10 : Right. 11 : The people that he said 12 were present say the same thing. 13 : Right. 14 : He didn't say that. 15 : Right. 16 : So, point being is, well, 17 if didn't pass that information on, if 18 they were actually conducting their rounds, 19 should they have noticed that he wasn't there? 20 : Yeah. If they knew that he 21 didn't If they knew, they knew that - 22 what's his name? - Epstein wasn't supposed to 23 have a cellmate. So, if you see his cell on 24 there, that I guess, and on the outside of the 25 cell, they would have his name and the other EFTA00059146

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 1 person. Then you should be saying, okay, where 2 is the cellmate? We know he's not in the 3 attorney room. 4 MR. HAYES: Okay. 5 : So. 6 MR. HAYES: I got it. 7 : So, you know he's down in 8 the attorney room. So, you would have said, 9 okay, somebody's got to be in that cell. 10 MR. HAYES: Hmm. Ace bastard. That's a 11 way to fuck with the other guys. 12 : Meaning, if they actually did 13 the rounds and the counts like they were 14 supposed to, there was more than enough time 15 for them to turn around and assign another 16 cellmate, if needed. 17 : Or to say, of course, to 18 your point, where they are saying that nobody 19 ever told them, if you were making your rounds, 20 you would have saw that there was nobody in 21 that cell, and then ask you a question, where 22 he's at. 23 MR. HAYES: And the person whose job it is 24 to make sure they are doing their rounds is the 25 lieutenant or the captain? EFTA00059147

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 1 : On the shift, it is the 2 lieutenant would check. But now, in fairness 3 to the lieutenant, if you are going off of a 4 sheet, and the sheet says, hey, you made your 5 rounds, and then, something like this happens, 6 then you find out people didn't make their 7 rounds. 8 : And I think what 9 question to you was, does this suggest to you 10 that they were not actually conducting their 11 rounds? The fact that Reyes was gone for 24 12 hours, and the notifications weren't made? 13 : It would appear, yeah, that 14 is the appearance. 15 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *03:18:07). 16 : Yeah. I mean. 17 : I just have one other 18 question. 19 MR. HAYES: When I do cross examinations, 20 and it says, it would appear that, yeah, 21 that's, yeah, somebody found. 22 : Have you ever heard of C.O.s 23 pre-filling round sheets? 24 : When he says pre-filling, 25 what he is saying is that, the beginning of EFTA00059148

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 1 their shift, they are going in and they are 2 just writing, they are initialing and putting 3 in the time. At the very beginning, for the 4 rest of their shift. 5 : So, let me put it to you 6 this way. If I -- 7 : I saw you smile -- 8 : -- no, no. 9 -- when he asked that. 10 : Because if I become aware 11 and know that somebody is doing something like 12 that, that is reportable misconduct. I'm going 13 to report that. So, if somebody came to me and 14 said, well, this person is pre-filling out 15 count slips, that would be something that 1 16 would say, okay, you know, I have to do a 17 referral, or if I don't have enough evidence 18 for it, I would have a supervisor, you know, 19 put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count 20 slips. 21 : So, if we have people 22 confessing, admitting that they are not only 23 pre-filling out their count slips, but also 24 doing it with their round sheets -- 25 : Right. EFTA00059149

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 280 1 : -- what is your response 2 to that? How bad of a -? How bad is that? 3 : Well, that is a referral. I 4 would have to do a referral for you guys to 5 look into it. 6 : And then, if they are 7 actually pre-filling those out, does that also 8 suggest to you that they didn't do their counts 9 or their rounds? 10 : Well, I mean, if they're 11 telling you that we pre-filled it out, it's 12 obvious that they did not, they are not 13 counting. 14 : Right. 15 : Because if somebody is pre- 16 filling out a sheet, that means -- 17 MR. HAYES: They're not counting. 18 : -- they have no intention of 19 counting. 20 : And does that indicate to 21 you, as that they are falsely 22 certifying rounds and counts that they did not 23 conduct? 24 : If they come to you, and 25 they say, hey, we didn't fill out, we haven't EFTA00059150

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 done our count slip, that is an admission of 2 misconduct. 3 : Right. But a false 4 certification, as well. Correct? 5 : Yeah. That is falsifying the 6 document. I mean, but they have admitted that 7 to you. But as far as -- 8 : Now, what if you -- 9 : -- me -. 10 : -- what if they are 11 saying - they are a newer employer - and they 12 are saying, well, we are doing it because we 13 watched a 20-year-old guy, 20-year guy do it. 14 That's how I learned. He didn't tell me to do 15 it. But I watched him do it. 16 : So -- 17 : So, I did that. 18 : I would -. So, I would 19 say to you, when did that person come in? 20 Because anybody that came in under me, you get 21 the spiel that, hey, I was new, I was an 22 officer. I know what it is to be new. But I 23 always, always tell people, you got to know 24 what's near and dear to you. 25 : And that is why I asked EFTA00059151

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 1 you specifically -- 2 : Right. 3 : -- with Tova Noel. Are 4 you confident that you gave her that spiel? 5 : Talk to whoever was in her 6 class, and you talk to any, any new class that 7 came through, and they will tell you my spiel. 8 : Okay. 9 : Okay? You can go into our 10 annual training, when we have it, talk to 11 people, and they will tell you about my spiel. 12 : Do you say that always at 13 annual training? 14 : I cover everything. Because 15 I have -- 16 MR. HAYES: Yeah, but do you always say 17 is, you have to do what you have to do. Don't 18 do it just because the 20-year-old guy did 19 that. 20 : I do. I tell people about 21 doing their job. The same thing when it comes 22 to use of force. I tell staff all the time. 23 Use enough force necessary to control the 24 situation. 25 : But specifically about EFTA00059152

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 283 1 not watching the 20-year guy. What is it that 2 you tell them? 3 : So, what I tell them is, I 4 come in -- 5 : Because it sounds like it 6 is the same thing you tell them every time. 7 : -- right. So, what I 8 basically tell them, I said, you got some good 9 people that work in the institution. And then, 10 I had, you got some people with time, that just 11 want to do what they want to do. And I tell 12 them, don't follow them around. I said, you've 13 got one. If you are on probation coming in, 14 you need to be doing your job. I said, if 15 someone comes in, and they're not doing their 16 job, or they're telling you not to do 17 something, you make sure you let your 18 supervisor know. I said, I make rounds, ycu 19 can, you can talk to me. 20 : Okay. 21 : You know? So, the 22 expectation was clear. But with any other 23 agency - and I'm not just saying our agency - 24 there are people that come in and they become 25 followers. EFTA00059153

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 : Now, we're going to move 2 on. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : We talked about the phone 5 call. 6 : Right. 7 : On August 9th. What is 8 your understanding of what transpired with 9 Epstein being provided a phone call on the 10 night of August 9th, 2019? 11 : So, from what I understand, 12 when you come in, you have to be able to do, 13 for the monitored calls, the voice analysis and 14 all that. So, from what I understand 15 afterwards, Epstein was never available for 16 that to be done. Because he went down to the 17 attorney room, and he would come up at night. 18 So, from what I understand, he was given an 19 unmonitored call. 20 : And what do you mean by 21 an "unmonitored call"? 22 : An unmonitored call is a 23 call that is not recorded with the inmate phone 24 system. 25 : Is it your -- EFTA00059154

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 285 1 MR. HAYES: In other words, they don't 2 listen to what you say? 3 : Right. They don't. 4 : -- is it your 5 understanding that anyone physically monitored 6 the call, or did you -? 7 : From what I understand, the 8 individual was standing right there when he 9 made the call. 10 : All right. So, it is our 11 understanding that, "On August 9th, 2019, 12 Epstein made a request to 13 , to provide him with a phone 14 call, so that he - Epstein - could call his 15 mother. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 checked Epstein's 18 pack and PIN, and found out it was not yet set 19 up. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : Therefore, took 22 Epstein to a shower area in the SHU, and 23 plugged a phone into a legal line. 24 dialed the number. A man answered. He handed 25 the phone to Epstein. And then, left EFTA00059155

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 1 for the day. stayed -. Oh, sorry. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : Then we found out that 4 the SHU C.O.s were around. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : And did not 7 specifically instruct any one of them to 8 monitor their phone call. Instead, he called 9 the SHU after he departed from the MCC, to make 10 sure that the phone was taken away from Epstein 11 after his allotted time. Had you heard that 12 before? 13 : I have -. What I heard was 14 he was there and did the monitoring. 15 : So, your understanding 16 was that, was there the entire time of 17 his call? 18 : That, at the entire time of 19 his call. 20 : So, a number of questions 21 off of that. The fact that dialed the 22 number that he gave him, and a man called. A 23 man answered. Who, he said he was calling his 24 mother. A man answered and he gave him the 25 phone. Is that problematic to you? EFTA00059156

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 287 1 : I didn't hear that it was a 2 Who did I -? They said it was his 3 : So, that information might 4 have come out after. 5 : It came out after. I didn't 6 - I heard that after the fact - so, I didn't 7 hear any specifics, but I heard it was -. 8 forgot who they said it was that called, but 9 then afterwards, they said, whoever they said 10 it was, was deceased. That he didn't have that 11 talk. 12 : I think it was his 13 mother. 14 : Yeah. I think it might -. 15 So, and that, that is what I heard. 16 MR. HAYES: His -- 17 : Yeah. 18 MR. HAYES: -- his mother died during the 19 time of this investigation. 20 : Hmm. 21 : She was previously deceased. 22 : Deceased. 23 MR. HAYES: So, wait, wait, wait, wait, 24 wait. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059157

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 1 MR. HAYES: So, he calls, looking for his 2 mother. 3 : He said he wanted to talk 4 to his mother. 5 MR. HAYES: But his mother was already 6 dead. 7 : Right. 8 : And the person who 9 answered the phone was a male. But he still 10 gave the phone to Mr. Epstein. Is that 11 problematic? That he says he wants to talk to 12 his mother. A man answers. And then gives the 13 phone to Mr. Epstein. 14 : Well, remember, I am hearing 15 this, that it was a call that all along said 16 I'm calling the mother. I don't know anything 17 about a man answering the phone. 18 : No, no, no, no, no. I'm 19 providing this information as in, like, you are 20 , what is your take on this? Did he 21 do something wrong there? 22 : Well, as far as, you know, 23 you are saying you want to talk to your mother, 24 and the -- 25 : And a man answers the EFTA00059158

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 1 phone. 2 : -- and then, a man answers 3 the phone. Yeah. It might have been some 4 questions he should have been asking. 5 : Should have he verified 6 who it was he was providing -? If he is giving 7 him an unmonitored call, on an unmonitored 8 line, should have he verified who it was that 9 was on that other line? 10 : Right. If a male picked up 11 the phone. 12 MR. HAYES: Why do you know it's an 13 unmonitored line? 14 : Because the legal line 15 isn't recorded? 16 : Right. 17 MR. HAYES: So, that means unmonitored, 18 that it's -- 19 : Yeah. That you can't -. 20 MR. HAYES: -- it's not recorded. 21 : Right. 22 : Correct. 23 MR. HAYES: Okay. 24 : On that note, were there 25 any lines that Mr. could have plugged EFTA00059159

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 1 the phone into, that were monitored, versus if 2 they didn't have a pack and PIN? 3 : Not on the ranges, I 4 believe. I'm not sure. 5 : No? 6 : I don't think there was 7 anything on there. 8 : Because, yeah, we had 9 been told by someone that many, if not most, 10 BOP facilities have the ability, if a pack and 11 PIN such as that wasn't set up. There are 12 lines that you could plug it into, that are 13 monitored, but at MCC, that wasn't the case 14 : No. 15 : -- in SHU? 16 : Not on the ranges. 17 : Okay. 18 : No. 19 : You said not on the ranges? 20 : Yeah. 21 : Where would it be? 22 : I'm not sure. I think 23 religious services might have a line. The 24 Chaplin. 25 : But not in the SHU? EFTA00059160

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291 1 : Not in the SHU. 2 : Okay. So, not only did 3 he do that, but he then left the SHU for the 4 day. Obviously, he was supposed to sit there 5 and listen to the call. Correct? 6 : Right. 7 : Should have he put it on 8 speaker phone? 9 : Either listen to the call, 10 or if he had somebody else take over the call. 11 : Okay. 12 : You know, so, somebody 13 should have been monitoring the call. 14 : Right. 15 : Just to stand there and 16 listen. 17 : All right. Now, the fact 18 that, you know, obviously, dropped the 19 ball there. He gave him a call, he just wanted 20 to talk to his mom, his mom is deceased, and a 21 male answered. 22 : Right. 23 : Second, he didn't stay to 24 listen to the call. Third, he didn't tell 25 anybody else to listen to the call. Now, the EFTA00059161

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 292 1 fact that the other - he leaves the unit - the 2 fact that the other people are in the unit, 3 should have they then, at some point, also 4 said, like, hey, this guy is on a phone call, 5 let's go monitor it, or should have that been 6 something that 7 : Yeah, you couldn't -- 8 -- would have directed? 9 : -- you couldn't -. But 10 that's what I'm saying. I don't know the 11 conversation that took place between them. If 12 the call was made, and somebody was told to go 13 monitor it. Did they go over it? Did they not 14 go over it? 15 : No. 16 : So, I don't -. 17 : So, Mr. told the 18 people -- 19 : Right. 20 -- he's on a phone call. 21 Get it back after - whenever it was - 15 22 minutes. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : They were giving him an 25 unmonitored call. EFTA00059162

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 293 1 MR. HAYES: The significance of this is 2 that, if somebody had monitored the phone call, 3 they might have found out that he was very 4 depressed, or he was -? 5 : Well, there is Can 6 you tell us, why is it important for us to know 7 that what inmates are talking about on their 8 phone calls? 9 : I mean, just for the safety 10 and the security of the institution. 11 : Is it true that they 12 could potentially operate their businesses, 13 their illegal businesses, from there? 14 : You could. 15 : Or they call a hit on 16 someone. Or they could, they could do a lot of 17 different illegal activities, if we are not 18 monitoring those calls -- 19 : Right. That's -- 20 : -- that we wouldn't know 21 22 : -- why we monitor them. 23 MR. HAYES: All right. I have one more 24 story. 25 : Yeah. Right. EFTA00059163

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. HAYES: I'm a young lawyer. And I 2 know it's hard to believe I was ever young. 3 But I go - I'm supposed to interview a prison - 4 and I go to the interview, and he says, this 5 person is the main rat against, and I said, no, 6 he's not. I said, that person has got no - 7 fucking nothing to do with it. He don't say 8 nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, 9 oh, man, I better make a phone call. 10 : So, is it standard 11 practice to allow inmates to make personal 12 calls, as had done? 13 : You do I, sometimes if they 14 come in, they don't have a pack number. Like, 15 you could have a family member that has passed 16 away, and, you know, you allow them to make a 17 call under that circumstance. You know, I have 18 a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, 19 but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, 20 you make a call to another agency. And the 21 inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is 22 such and such. But you stay and you listen to 23 the conversation. 24 : Was there ever an 25 instance that you wouldn't listen to the EFTA00059164

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 295 1 conversation? 2 : On an unmonitored line? 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : No. Somebody should be 5 standing there. 6 : All right. And what are 7 your thoughts on this specific matter from what 8 we just, from what I just told you? 9 : Like I said, if it's 10 problematic, if you said, if it's the way you 11 said it, yeah. 12 : And is it a serious 13 concern and safety violation? 14 : Well, yeah. I mean, it's a 15 breach. 16 : And why? 17 : Because we don't know what 18 the conversation was. 19 : Okay. You said -. Okay. 20 You answered that. These are just on this 21 note, there is just a couple of these. There 22 is a phone call. This one says it's from an 23 Do you know who that is? 24 : Yeah. He's the supervisory 25 attorney. EFTA00059165

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 296 1 : So, he is an attorney? 2 Oh, okay. That's the same guy. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : Supervisory staff 5 attorney. It says, "For client Jeffrey 6 Epstein. Good afternoon. Below, please find 7 complaints from Epstein's attorneys. Can you 8 check to see if he has toilet paper, and that 9 his CPAP is plugged in? I am less concerned 10 regarding his complaint of having had two 11 calls, but they were on unmonitored lines. So, 12 there is no recording of them. His phone 13 account is set up, so we could get a call on 14 the ITS, when 30 days has -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- elapsed." 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : So, it looks like this 19 was actually discussed, and this again, was on 20 August 6, 2019. Do you know if this was -? It 21 looks like this was the whole, to the whole 22 executive staff -- 23 : Right. 24 : -- team. Was this talked 25 about at all? EFTA00059166

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 297 1 : It was sent out, and that's 2 when, and I don't recall the timeline, I said 3 he needs to get his stuff set up. Anything -- 4 : Okay. 5 that he needs, needs to 6 get it set up. So, I believe that was the day 7 when I sent everybody up there, in the attorney 8 room area, and said, get his stuff set up. 9 : Now, did you - the 10 captain, I believe, informed that he 11 would give him this call, just make sure it's 12 monitored. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Prior to that, did the 15 captain talk to you about this at all? 16 : About what? 17 : Well, affording this un, 18 you know, this call on an unmonitored line, but 19 just making sure it was monitored? 20 : No. 21 : No? 22 : Hmm-mm. 23 : But what you had said, 24 make sure his pack and PIN is set up? 25 : Yeah. I had to. Because EFTA00059167

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 298 1 there was some other things to get set up, and 2 I said, hey, we got to make sure that we can 3 get his stuff going. If that's the date, if 4 remember, where everyone went up and talked to 5 him at the, where he was in the attorney room. 6 : Okay. Now, this is one 7 that's going to be -. Now, did you -. Were 8 you able to print out that attachment? 9 : No. That's just our screen. 10 It's not what they would see. 11 : I was just hoping -. 12 Okay. So, this is one we got. It's something 13 from 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : And who is that? 16 : That's the communication 17 guy. 18 : Correct. And he is in 19 charge of, like, the phones 20 : The phones. 21 : -- the cameras. 22 : Right. 23 : Correct? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : And he's to you, and it EFTA00059168

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 299 1 says, "Phone record 104." 2 : Right. 3 : Sent on Saturday, August 4 10th, 2019, at 3:04 p.m. Now, it has an 5 attachment here, titled 8.19.19.cap. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : That we are unable to 8 open. Do you know what that would have been? 9 It appears that it is related to the phone call 10 that Mr. Epstein made. Do you remember if you 11 ever received a recording of that phone call? 12 : No. I didn't get any 13 recordings. 14 : Would it have -- 15 : Nuh-uh. 16 : -- been, maybe, then, the 17 number that he dialed? 18 : I think it might -. And it 19 might have been the number. I'm not sure. I 20 can't I don't recall. 21 : Okay. 22 : What that is. 23 : Do you remember asking 24 to provide you with any specific 25 information with regards to the call? EFTA00059169

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 300 1 : We might have called him 2 about the line, and what was the number that 3 was called. 4 : Okay. 5 : And could they have pulled 6 it up. So, we might have asked him that. 7 : But it definitely wasn't 8 an actual recording on the phone? 9 : No. It was -- 10 : Okay. 11 I think it might have 12 been the number that, you know, I think wanting 13 to pass on to the FBI. 14 : Great. 15 : Uh-huh. 16 : Do you mind just 17 initialing -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- and dating that? 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : I just didn't know what 22 that .cap was. 23 : Right. 24 : So, we didn't know, oh my 25 gosh, do we have a recording of this thing? EFTA00059170