LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 asked, as an aside, whether we would consider 2 housing him in the cadre." What is the cadre? 3 : Cadre is the camp. 4 : Is that low level? 5 : It's like our lower security 6 inmates. Yeah. 7 : So, you have an actual 8 camp at the MCC? 9 : It's low security inmates. 10 But remember, they are designated. So, we 11 couldn't put him in that unit because he's pre- 12 trial. We can't mix designated and pre-trial 13 inmates together. 14 : Okay. It says, "I 15 advised we could not," since he was a pre-trial 16 inmate. 17 : Right. 18 : "Later that day, but 19 prior to 1:00, close out meeting, I spoke to 20 attorney on the phone. He had 21 asked whether we could house Mr. Epstein alone 22 in the SHU, to which I replied that we could 23 not, based on his prior suicide 24 attempt/gesture." 25 MR. HAYES: It's just, I've never heard of EFTA00058971

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 his lawyers. You would think that his lawyers 2 would be somebody that I was familiar with. 3 : Yeah. 4 MR. HAYES: Since they're probably 5 charging him $2,000 an hour. 6 : "He acknowledged that he 7 understood. To my recollection, neither 8 attorney referenced consideration for suicide 9 watch or psychological observation during 10 yesterday's conversation. Please let me know 11 if you need any further information." Now, was 12 this just a request to any contact that he had 13 with his attorneys? 14 : He was just keeping me 15 informed because the attorneys were calling 16 every day, with different types of requests. 17 : But this was the day, 18 obviously, of when he was found. So, this 19 would -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- he's talking about 22 context, just literally the previous day -- 23 : Right. 24 : -- that he was looking 25 for different housing type arrangements. EFTA00058972

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : But all right. If -. 3 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 4 : Excuse me? 5 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 6 (Indiscernible *01:18:25) charging. 7 : Oh. Now, this answers 8 our question from before. So, this actually 9 says, it's from you to , it says 10 attorney logs. This is that same thing that we 11 were looking at. 12 : Okay. 13 : So, it looks like July 14 30th is highlighted, and Mr. Epstein. And 15 again, all these -- 16 : These are the attorney 17 assignment. 18 : -- (Indiscernible 19 *01:18:43). 20 : Yeah. 21 : Yeah. So, that does now 22 clarify what it is, because, previously, there 23 was nothing that was in the subject liner. 24 : Okay. 25 : Or the body. Okay. EFTA00058973

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 MR. HAYES: Yeah. I'm looking at the 2 stack, and I'm sitting here, just Jesus Christ. 3 : We're coming to - hey - 4 we're almost halfway through. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. HAYES: Well, that's the way you're 7 looking at it. (Indiscernible *01:19:04). A 8 little bit different, fellas. I'm thinking 9 about, I'm going to miss today's workout and 10 tomorrow's. 11 : Well. 12 : Now, you've already 13 answered this, but did you work at the MCC or. 14 August 9th? 15 : For that -- 16 : 2019. 17 was Friday. Friday, I 18 was off. 19 : What about on August 20 10th, 2019? 21 : 10th was a Saturday -- 22 : Correct. 23 : I was, I worked on 24 Saturday. 25 : All right. But did you EFTA00058974

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 work in response to this? 2 : No. I had to respond, if 3 the day of the suicide was August 10th -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- yeah, I had to respond if 6 I came in. 7 : Okay. So, but you 8 weren't scheduled to work? 9 : No. I wasn't scheduled to 10 work. 11 : All right. This is just 12 for - and this is going to be put in here, in 13 case you need to reference it - these are 14 emails that were from you to , with 15 the staff roster. 16 : Right. 17 : And the reason I'm using 18 these is because these were literally sent on 19 Sunday, August 11th. So, I know that we can 20 rely on these -- 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- based upon being so 23 close. So, this one is for Friday, August 9th. 24 It's showing who was working that day. And 25 this one is from Saturday, August 10th. Again, EFTA00058975

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 showing who was -- 2 : This is a correctional 3 roster. 4 : -- correct. 5 : Okay. 6 : Correct. This is a 7 correctional roster. Right. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : So, who was, basically 10 think, involved with Epstein during that date? 11 So, yes. How many rosters would there be, 12 aside from correctional? 13 : Well, the correctional 14 officers are the only ones that keep a daily 15 roster. 16 : Like, R&D wouldn't do 17 anything like that? 18 : No. Because their staff are 19 already assigned to where they are working at. 20 : Okay. 21 : Yeah. And they have rosters 22 that show where everyone is working at. But 23 not, like, the correctional officer roster. 24 : Okay. So, I'm going to 25 have you just initial and date. I'm going to EFTA00058976

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 place this, again, here, just in case we need 2 to reference it, and again, it's just if we 3 need to look at who was working, and what 4 position -- 5 : There's two on there. 6 : -- and what. Yes, 7 please. So, this one would be for the August 8 9th, that one is for August 10th. This 9 actually was not - the August 10th one - was 10 not attached to your email. Right? 11 : Yeah. You are right. 12 : So, the August 9th one 13 was attached, but the August 10th wasn't. 14 : Yeah. 15 : Yeah. So, we had to pull 16 that from -- 17 : Okay. 18 : -- just for full 19 disclosure, but just so that we have both. The 20 August 9th one was something that you had sent. 21 All right. Since Epstein was required to have 22 a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to 23 make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of 24 this requirement? 25 : That they were notified? EFTA00058977

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 : So, how -. So, Dr. Imeri 2 or Mrs. Imeri sent out that email, saying -- 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- Epstein is required to 5 have a cellmate. The one that we reviewed. 6 : Right. 7 : Who was required to make 8 sure that staff that is working in the SHU is 9 aware of that requirement? 10 : Well, the captain passes it 11 on to the lieutenants, and the officers are 12 then made aware that he, you know, any inmate, 13 if they are required a cellmate -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- that, you know, that he - 16 they are to require cellmate, if somebody 17 leaves or goes out. 18 : Now, someone such as an 19 Epstein, who was just coming off of suicide 20 watch, you know, a week, a week and a half 21 prior, should all staff know that that person 22 is supposed to be housed with a cellmate? 23 : In the Special Housing Unit, 24 anybody working in there would know that he was 25 supposed to have a cellmate. EFTA00058978

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 : Do you believe that there 2 was anybody - especially anybody that's got a 3 quarterly bit of post there -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- but anybody that's 6 working in the SHU on August 9th or 10th, do 7 you believe that there could be a reason why 8 they would say, we didn't know he was supposed 9 to have a cellmate? Do you think that would be 10 an acceptable excuse? 11 : Because you had the staff 12 that usually work up there, were up there. It 13 should be, it should have been annotated on his 14 - what do you call it? - it's called a 292. 15 : The hot list, you are 16 referring to, or -- 17 : No. Not the hot list. 18 : -- or what? Oh, you 19 mean, oh, the 292. You're talking about the 20 SHU -- 21 : Yeah. 22 : -- file. 23 : The SHU file. It should be 24 annotated on the SHU file because, when you 25 come in, you have to annotate on there his EFTA00058979

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 meals, did he eat, the medical rounds. So, it 2 would have been on there, it would have been on 3 there, too. So. 4 : Would it have also been 5 on the hot list, though? 6 MR. HAYES: Guys. I need an interpreter. 7 : Yeah. 8 MR. HAYES: What does the hot list mean? 9 : It's just -- 10 : That's -- 11 : -- sorry. 12 : -- yeah. I guess the high 13 risk suicide inmates. Yeah. So. 14 MR. HAYES: Whether it's suicide, or high 15 risk for some other kind of problem? 16 : It could be -. It's mainly 17 for, like, suicide, just to -- 18 MR. HAYES: Medical. 19 : -- to watch out for. Yeah. 20 Medical. Okay. 21 MR. HAYES: Seizures. You know, stuff 22 like that? 23 : Yeah. So. 24 : So, point being is, do 25 you think that, if any staff that is working in EFTA00058980

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 that, you know, as we know, Mr. Reyes left - - 2 : Right. 3 : -- in the morning of 4 August 9th, Mr. Epstein was found the -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- the morning of August 7 10th. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : SHU staff that is working 10 in there at that time, he's 24 hours basically 11 gone, you know, with no, without a cellmate. 12 Do you think that this is a reasonable excuse 13 for them to say that we didn't know he was 14 required to have a cellmate? 15 : No, because they did know, 16 because I - from what I understand - someone 17 wrote a memorandum, and had it that day, that 18 they knew. 19 : Okay. Well, yeah, we can 20 get into that. Now then, so these are -. 21 MR. HAYES: One other question. I want to 22 open a box. 23 : Absolutely. 24 MR. HAYES: That means I'm going to have 25 to bring a sharp object in here. Is that going EFTA00058981

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to bother anybody? 2 : No. No. 3 : No. No. 4 : No, no, no, no. 5 MR. HAYES: Okay. 6 : I'm sorry, I thought you 7 were talking about, like, this hypothetical 8 situation of if we were in the MCC or 9 something. 10 : Yeah. 11 MR. HAYES: Oh, no. No. This is just a 12 13 : You're just wanting to 14 know if you can use scissors. Yeah. That's 15 fine. 16 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 17 : I guess we should wait 18 until he gets -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- back again. If we 21 speak loudly, will you be able to hear our 22 questions? 23 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 24 : All right. We're going 25 to continue, then. The answer was yes. EFTA00058982

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 : I don't know if that was 2 somebody. 3 : There might be clients in the 4 office. 5 : Oh. 6 : Huh? 7 : Okay. 8 : That's why. 9 : Then we will wait. 10 : He wasn't kidding about the 11 knife. 12 : Oh. 13 MR. HAYES: You know why I got this? This 14 movie called Gangs of New York. 15 : That's a great movie. 16 MR. HAYES: And he - and a good movie 17 and the lead actress was a woman named Cameron 18 Diaz. 19 : Sure. 20 MR. HAYES: And I had a wild eyed crush on 21 Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife - 22 seriously - I found the guy who made the knife 23 that she carried in the show, and I said, I 24 want you to make me an exact duplicate. How 25 sick is that? Of that knife. And so, this is EFTA00058983

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 it. 2 : That's super cool. 3 MR. HAYES: So. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Sorry. I'll ask a few 6 more questions before we get into these 7 documents. Were any plans made on how to 8 address this situation for if Reyes was removed 9 as Epstein's cellmate? Like, if he -. Because 10 I know at MCC, inmates certainly leave. 11 (Indiscernible *01:26:13). 12 : No. I mean, the plan would 13 have been, you know, we would have assessed it, 14 because usually, you get ahead of time, we 15 would have just said, okay, when is -? When 16 Reyes leaves, or you know, when he was leaving, 17 then before he was placed back in that cell, an 18 assessment would have been made. 19 : Okay. Now, what is your 20 understanding of what happened with inmate 21 Reyes on August 9th, 2019? 22 : When I got back after the 23 fact, I guess the Marshals came and removed him 24 from the institution. 25 : Okay. So, there is a lot EFTA00058984

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 of people we've talked to thought he went to 2 court, and that at court, it was determined he 3 wasn't coming back. Had you heard that? 4 : That's what I heard, too. I 5 had heard he was going to court. And then, I 6 guess word got back that he wasn't coming back. 7 That's what I heard. So, I never got 8 (Indiscernible *01:27:00). 9 MR. HAYES: It's either a good day in 10 court, or a bad day in court. 11 : Yeah. I never got the 12 actual story because I was, I was removed. So. 13 : Okay. And again, what 14 does WAB mean? 15 : It means With All 16 Belongings. 17 : Okay. 18 : But I don't know, and I 19 don't know if people will say that he left, and 20 then they went and got him from the office. 21 So, I am not sure. 22 : Okay. So, this is -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- one of those documents 25 that says -- EFTA00058985

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : -- from to 3 you. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : With inmate Epstein as 6 the subject. 7 : Right. 8 : And it says, "So far, 9 this is the documentation I have in my 10 possession." 11 MR. HAYES: Wow. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : And if you see, you know, 14 here, it talks about all the documentation 15 pertaining to him. These look like all the BOP 16 database -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- things. Then down 19 here, it says, "Documentation re: Reyes, Efrain 20 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 • 23 Cellmate." 24 MR. HAYES: Right. 25 : Right. EFTA00058986

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : It says, "Court 2 documentation regarding WAB 8/09 -- 3 : '19. 4 : -- '19. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : And then, also SHU file. 7 So, "Showing court documentation regarding WAB 8 8/09/19." What documentation is she referring 9 to there? 10 : I guess whatever came 11 through R&D. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : Our Receiving and Discharge. 14 They might have gotten -. They must have 15 gotten information to release him, and that he 16 was being transferred. 17 : So, would it be at all- I 18 know R&D creates something called, like, a 19 court production list, or -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- would that be what 22 she's talking about, the court production list, 23 or would she be, do you think -- 24 : So -- 25 : -- or, like, a PP-38, or EFTA00058987

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 something, or whatever -? 2 : I think, and I'm speculating 3 now, it was probably the court list, and it 4 probably said, we're sending him off to court. 5 And it was a possibility that he might be 6 getting released. 7 : Because the document that 8 has been eluding me -- 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- is that court 11 production list. Do you know if that was ever 12 obtained? Do you know, the thing that, that 13 R&D creates this list, they provide it to the - 14 15 : Oh, the court -- 16 : -- different housing 17 units. 18 : -- list. I don't. I don't 19 know what they do with it. 20 : They just, they all say 21 they -- 22 : Now -- 23 : -- destroy it after that 24 time. 25 : Yeah, they do, but -- EFTA00058988

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 : But -- 2 : -- with him -- 3 : -- but that's what would 4 have been used by the SHU staff, in order to 5 produce Reyes to the R&D. 6 : No. Not necessarily. What 7 typically happens is, the R&D staff will call 8 up to SHU, and say, hey, I need Reyes down. He 9 has court. Or he's being released. So, there 10 wouldn't have been a document sent up. 11 : So, everyone that we 12 talked to said R&D said, yes, we created this 13 document. 14 : Right. 15 : And the SHU staff, 16 including the OIC, said, yes, we had 17 documentation showing that he was WAB. So 18 then, and they all said it was because it was 19 this court production list that you sent out 20 emails to -. 21 : Unless it's sent in the 22 early morning. 23 : And it's not something 24 that's sent electronically. It's something 25 they said that they generate, print out -- EFTA00058989

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 Right. : -- and hand to 120 3 different, the ops has one, every 4 housing unit has one. Internal goes around and 5 collects people, based upon it or something. I 6 think. And then -- 7 : So -- 8 : -- then they basically 9 destroy it at the end of the day, and nothing 10 is maintained in the system. They just use a 11 template, and create a new one for every day. 12 : So, that must have been the 13 early court movement. So, I was under the 14 impression that he was, he left in the 15 afternoon. So, when typically in the 16 afternoon, they will just call up and say, hey, 17 we got one that's leaving. So, I assumed he 18 had left that afternoon. 19 : Okay. So, is it, then, 20 are you not - then to answer that question 21 are you not sure exactly what she's referring 22 to when she says "court documentation regarding 23 WAB"? 24 : Like, the way you explained 25 it, then that means they were talking about EFTA00058990

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 morning courts. 2 : Well, that's what they 3 were -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : I'm just talking about 6 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- specifically, what 9 she's talking about in this email to you. Do 10 you -? 11 : But when you say WAB, With 12 All Belongings, it depends on the time of day 13 they left. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : You know? You could have 16 afternoon court, and you don't have that list 17 generated, and they say -- 18 : But if -- 19 : -- we need all his 20 belongings. 21 : -- this might help -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- and then, we will keep 24 this in front of you -- 25 : Okay. EFTA00058991

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 : -- this might help 2 explain this. So, this is an email that was 3 sent from the U.S. Marshal Service, someone 4 named (Phonetic Sp. *01:30:50). 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : On Thursday, August 8th, 7 2019, at 10:33 a.m. It says, "Transfer of 8 prisoners from NYM -- 9 : To GEO. 10 : -- to GEO. 11 : Okay. 12 : The following prisoners 13 are to be transferred." The second person 14 listed out of the two is, "Reyes, Efrain." 15 : Right. 16 : "85993-054." 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : "Please schedule the 19 transfer for Friday, 8/09/2019. Please include 20 seven days medication with the medical summary. 21 Thank you." 22 : Right. 23 : So, this obviously was 24 sent to R&D. Correct? 25 : Right. EFTA00058992

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. HAYES: Do we know what kind of 2 medication he was taking? 3 : Well, that's Efrain 4 Reyes. We're not talking about -. 5 : That's Reyes. 6 : We're not -. 7 MR. HAYES: I know. I just am curious. 8 : It's not -- 9 MR. HAYES: We don't know? 10 : Yeah. 11 MR. HAYES: -- relevant. 12 : Yeah. 13 MR. HAYES: Okay. 14 : I don't think it's 15 relevant. Here is another email that the U.S. 16 Marshal Service sent. This time, it was at 17 18 : Okay. 19 • -- 20 . It says, "Prisoner production." It 21 looks like it was sent to custody. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : On Thursday, August 8th, 24 2019, at 3:36 p.m. And this, this document, 25 prisoner schedule report is attached. And -- EFTA00058993

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 : You're looking at the second 2 one. 3 : -- so, for the MCC -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- it shows right here, 6 the second person listed as Efrain Reyes. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : And it just says, "TF, 9 transfer within. MCC New York." And right 10 here, it says, Judge MCC Tot, T-O-T. GEO. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : What I was told, that 13 means that he's transferring from the MCC to 14 GEO. Is that -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- your understanding? 17 : Yes. 18 : And then, on this one, 19 this is the PP-38. On the third - for 20 8/09/2019 - on the third page, it shows Reyes, 21 from ZO6-22. And that means the SHU. Correct? 22 : Yes. SHU. 23 : To pre-remove. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : At 8:38 a.m. EFTA00058994

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Mm-hmm. : So, this was 8:38 a.m. 125 3 He's keyed out of our system. We got these two 4 emails from the U.S. Marshal Service, saying 5 he's being transferred. 6 MR. HAYES: So, wait. Let me get this 7 clear. He's being transferred to what place to 8 what place? 9 : From the MCC to GEO. 10 MR. HAYES: And what is GEO? 11 : A contract facility. 12 MR. HAYES: And what is a contract 13 facility? 14 : A private prison. 15 MR. HAYES: Okay. And you had nothing to 16 do with -? In other words, somebody else 17 decides to go from one place to another -- 18 : Yes. 19 MR. HAYES: -- you (Indiscernible 20 *01:33:11). Okay. 21 : The Marshals -. 22 MR. HAYES: And would that be the judge or 23 the Marshals? 24 : The Marshals, I guess. The 25 judge. I don't know how the Marshals work, but EFTA00058995

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 they -- 2 : Prosecutors. Marshals. 3 : Yeah. 4 : Judge. 5 MR. HAYES: Okay. 6 : All in coordination, make 7 those determinations. But, and then, here is 8 an email from you to 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : With what you are talking 11 about, that memo. 12 : Right. 13 : It says, "On Friday, 14 August 9th, 2019," but before we even get into 15 that, now that you have seen this, you have 16 seen these two emails. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : From the Marshal Service 19 on August 8th. On August 9th, at 8:38, R&D 20 actually keys him out. 21 : Right. 22 : All of them say pre- 23 removed or transferred. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : Does that now tell you EFTA00058996

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 anything about this, court documentation 2 regarding WAB? 3 : Yeah. Now, it explains that 4 they had gotten a court order to have him go 5 out. 6 : So, what do you think is 7 referred to that court documentation? 8 : I guess it must be all of 9 these documents right here. 10 : This? 11 : Yes. 12 : So, what we're actually 13 looking at, you think she's referring to? 14 : That's, I think, that's what 15 she was referring to. 16 : All right. 17 : Yeah. 18 : So, court documentation 19 meaning, documentation from the Marshal 20 Service, saying that he was going to be 21 transferred? 22 : Right. 23 : All right. Now, based 24 upon what you are looking at here, specifically 25 from the Marshal Service -- EFTA00058997

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Mm-hmm. : -- and the fact that 128 3 Efrain Reyes, whom -. Is it -? I've been told 4 that everyone at the MCC knew who Reyes was 5 because they knew he was Epstein's cellmate. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : But at the very least, 8 everyone in the SHU should have known who 9 Efrain Reyes was. 10 : Right. 11 : Because he was Epstein's 12 cellmate. What should have happened once, on 13 August 8th, as early as 10:33 a.m., and as late 14 as 3:33 p.m., the day before Reyes is 15 transferred, what should have happened? 16 : As far as Epstein getting a 17 cellmate? 18 : Correct. 19 : Right. 20 : The notification is being 21 made that this person is being transferred, 22 everyone gathers him up. And so, what this, 23 I'm going to read this just to give you more 24 information -- 25 : Right. EFTA00058998

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 : -- on his backtrack. 2 This is a memorandum, dated August the 12th, 3 2019, to - yourself. 4 : Right. 5 : From , who, my 6 understanding is he was the 7 the time. 8 : Right. 9 : It says, "Subject passed 10 information from Special Housing Unit." So, 11 "On a Friday, August 9th, 2019, at 12 approximately 1:50 p.m., I, III 13 passed onto oncoming staff member, 14 Davis, and present shift staff, and 15 Officer Joiner, that inmate Reyes was going 16 WAB, and possibly may not return. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : Also, that inmate Epstein 19 will be needing a cellmate upon arrival from 20 his attorney visit." Now, what this doesn't 21 state is that Officer , or III 22 walked, I mean, both Epstein -- 23 MR. HAYES: I'll go get that. 24 : -- as well as Reyes, down 25 to R&D -- EFTA00058999

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : -- with all belongings. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : Spoke with both Epstein 5 and Mr. Reyes, and stated to Mr. - I think 6 Reyes stated to - make sure you get 7 him a cellmate. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : I'm not coming back. And 10 responding to Mr. Epstein, saying, 11 "Don't worry. We're going to get you a new 12 cellmate." 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Now, with all that 15 information, being that he is the OIC, he's 16 working in the SHU, he knows that he's WAB. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : We've got all this stuff 19 going on. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : This is the real big 22 reason why I want to talk to you -- 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : -- as 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059000

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 : This is kind of our 2 primary purpose -- 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- for us being here. 5 So, I apologize if you're going into that, but 6 I want you to have all the information -- 7 : Right. 8 : -- before I answer. What 9 should have happened here? So, R&D is 10 contacted the day before, or two days before 11 Epstein, or Epstein is found. One day before 12 Reyes is, you know, gone. They contacted both 13 custody, as well as R&D. 14 : Right. 15 : R&D pre-removes him at 16 8:38 on 8/09. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : The SHU OIC walks him 19 down, to R&D -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : -- and actually has this 22 conversation with Epstein and Reyes, saying, 23 know you are WAB, we're going to get you a new 24 staff, we're going to get you a new cellmate. 25 MR. HAYES: Which means - WAS means what? EFTA00059001

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 : With All Belongings, 2 neans they're not coming back. 3 MR. HAYES: But Epstein is not coming 4 back? 5 : No. 6 : His cellmate. 7 : Reyes. 8 MR. HAYES: Reyes. 9 : His cellmate. 10 MR. HAYES: So, the theory is, if you are 11 investigating, somebody says that you're not 12 going to have a cellmate anymore, and in that 13 conversation, or present during that 14 conversation, is Epstein? 15 : Epstein is present. Yes. 16 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, Epstein knows that 17 he's not going to have a cellmate for the 18 immediate future? 19 : No. Epstein is going to 20 attorney conference. So, he's going to be -- 21 MR. HAYES: No, no, but I'm saying -- 22 in attorney conference 23 until about 7:00 p.m.. 24 MR. HAYES: -- that Epstein knows that, 25 over the next, say, 24 hours, he's not going to EFTA00059002

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 have a cellee. 2 : No. , the OIC, 3 tells Epstein, as well as Reyes, that they are 4 going to get him a cellmate. Before he comes 5 back from attorney/client, his attorney visit. 6 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, Epstein would know 7 that he hasn't - going to have a cellmate. 8 : Yeah, yeah. So, this 9 isn't part of the theory. What my question to 10 your client is, what should have happened based 11 upon the knowledge that he was WAB? The 12 contact with the Marshal Service, telling him 13 that he's being transferred. The fact that 14 R&D, you know, the OIC walked him down to R&D, 15 and R&D actually logged him out of our system. 16 What should have happened? 17 : So, what should have 18 happened was, this information should have been 19 passed up to the supervisors. 20 : At what point? 21 : See, with the, this 22 information coming in, as far as, you know, 23 when R&D -- 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- typically, it would come EFTA00059003

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 up to the Special Housing Unit. Once it got up 2 to that, to the Special Housing Unit, the 3 lieutenants should have been notified. 4 : Okay. And which 5 6 : Whoever was the SHU 7 , whoever was the operations 8 9 : Now, on this case 10 : If the -. 11 : -- the SHU is 12 also on leave. 13 : Right. 14 : So, we've got the chief 15 psychologist on leave, on leave, the 16 SHU on leave. But we do have an ops 17 , we do have an activities 18 And we do have a captain. 19 : So, you should have let the 20 know, if you didn't have 21 a SHU . They, in turn, would let the 22 captain know, and the captain would push it up 23 to the execs then. Then, we would have to come 24 to a determination on who we were going to 25 house with Epstein. EFTA00059004

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Now, if the operations , his name is Perez. 135 3 : Right. 4 : Carlos 5 : Right. 6 : -- Perez. 7 : Right. 8 : If he says, yes, I know 9 Epstein was gone, but I believe that he was at 10 court -- 11 : No. You mean -- 12 : -- and he might be 13 returning back. 14 : -- Reyes is gone. 15 : Yes. 16 : So, Carlos Perez knows 17 that Sorry, did I say Epstein? 18 : Yeah. You said Epstein. 19 : Yes. Carlos Perez knows 20 that Reyes is gone. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : But I think he's at 23 court, and then, he might not be coming back. 24 I didn't pass this information onto my relief, 25 who was Cannata (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:59). EFTA00059005

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : However, as our 3 investigation has revealed, the ops 4 also has one of these court production lists, 5 that lists Reyes -- 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : -- as WAB. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : With that knowledge, is 10 that a reason that he thinks that he went to 11 court, and might be coming back? 12 : I can't interpret what his 13 thought process was, but if it said, you know, 14 he was leaving, and I don't know what he was 15 reading at the time. 16 : Right. 17 : He could have been reading, 18 because sometimes the inmates do go out to 19 court and come back. So, I don't know. I 20 can't speak to what he read. Or why he made 21 that determination. 22 MR. HAYES: So, listen, wouldn't have most 23 inmates, when they go to court, come back? 24 : The point being here 25 : What I'm saying -- EFTA00059006

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 : -- he didn't go to court. 2 : Yeah. 3 : He was transferred. 4 : He was transferred. 5 : And I know you might have 6 covered this, in your understanding, in your 7 experience at the MCC, if an inmate is listed 8 as WAB -- 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 -- With All Belongings -- 11 : Yeah. 12 : -- what is your 13 understanding? Are they coming back or are 14 they gone? 15 : That means he's 16 transferring. 17 : Has there been situations 18 where they come back? 19 : There have been 20 : After WAB? 21 -- situations that, you 22 know, they go out and they have to have them 23 sending them back, if there was an issue. 24 : Is that a unique situation, 25 or it happens quite often? EFTA00059007

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 : No. I wouldn't say. 2 would say that it's probably unique. But 3 usually, WAB, they're gone. 4 : So, as the operations 5 , if you see somebody listed as WAB, 6 should he have understood that that person is 7 gone, and not coming back? 8 : Should have. But then, 9 you're talking off the document. I don't know 10 what document they read. So, I don't want to 11 speculate what, you know, was it, you know, 12 send them to R&D, whether he saw that. I don't 13 know what document. But I'm saying, if it is 14 this document, that clearly stated WAB. 15 : Okay. But as far as your 16 concern, it doesn't sound like what you were 17 saying is, , who was the OIC at the 18 time, should have he notified the ops 19 20 : Yes. Whoever is - yeah - 21 there should have notified the operations 22 , hey, Reyes left, and -- 23 MR. HAYES: He needs a cellmate. 24 : -- he needs a cellmate, 25 : Okay. So, would it fall EFTA00059008

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 solely on the shoulders of 2 : No. I mean, okay, so, 3 here's the other checks and balance. So, what 4 about the other people on the other shift? 5 : That's my question. 6 : Yeah. 7 : So, or 8 : I mean 9 : -- or the people that are 10 working on his same shift. 11 : -- yeah. On his own same, 12 shift -- 13 : So, who -- 14 : -- if it was the 15 notification should have been made to the 16 . Or the captain. And 17 said, hey, cellmate left. He needs a cellmate. 18 : Okay. 19 MR. HAYES: And that cellmate would now, 20 at some point, he goes back to the cell, but 21 that's at the end of the day. 22 : At the end of the day. 23 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, nobody is in a 24 position to say, hey, he's in a cell by 25 himself. Until the end of the day. EFTA00059009

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 : Right. But the information 2 is passed onto each other. You know, when you 3 4 : And they are supposed to 5 be doing 30-minute rounds, where they would 6 notice that one cell had zero inmates in it. 7 : Had zero inmates in it. 8 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 9 : So, I mean -- 10 MR. HAYES: And that's what brings us all 11 to -- 12 : Right. 13 MR. HAYES: -- here today. 14 : So -- 15 : Uh-huh. 16 : I mean, that's how it 17 would have made, and when that got pushed up, 18 we would have said, okay, we would have to 19 formulate, okay, who can we get a cellmate for, 20 for Epstein? 21 : And I apologize to ask 22 this because, but, like, so, on each shift 23 would be the OIC, that would be responsible for 24 that. So, for instance, would be on 25 the day watch shift up until 2:00 p.m., he EFTA00059010

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 would be the one to responsible to provide the 2 , but then, the following shift, 3 would it be -- 4 : Whoever is the -- 5 : -- the next OIC -- 6 : -- right. 7 : -- or would also the 8 people that are working in that unit, the other 9 SHU staff, would they be responsible? Or is 10 that a chain of command thing? Like, no, the 11 OIC is really the person making that 12 notification. 13 : Everybody has a 14 responsibility for their safety. Everybody. I 15 mean -- 16 : Sure. 17 : I might be the OIC, but I 18 have some responsibilities. If I know, okay, 19 you know what? They might need a cellmate, 20 because I, in essence, I can have an individual 21 assigned to that post, and they're just filling 22 in for somebody that, the regular person that's 23 up there. And then, I have the regular people 24 working up there, who are familiar with what's 25 going on. So, it's kind of everyone's EFTA00059011

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 responsibility. You know? 2 : So, is everyone kind of 3 equally responsible, then, for this? That was 4 working there and didn't pass the information 5 on. 6 MR. HAYES: Can you say? Don't guess. 7 : You know what? 8 : No, as 9 would be able to say. 10 : I mean, it should have been, 11 it should have been passed on. So, I don't 12 know the dynamics to, as far as what was going 13 on that day, who was working up there. What 14 rounds were being made -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- up there. You know, was 17 the lieutenant coming around? Was the captain? 18 How busy they were. 19 : So, the lieutenant was 20 not on - the lieutenant of the SHU - was not 21 on. However, we do have records that the 22 activities lieutenant at least visited -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- the SHU -- 25 : You have -- EFTA00059012

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 : -- at that point. 2 -- you have two other 3 lieutenants. Now, I don't know if you are 4 familiar with the Special Housing Unit, but it 5 is a very busy unit. 6 : Yeah. 7 : You know, you're giving out 8 showers. You're giving out recreation. You're 9 doing a whole lot of stuff. You, you know, 10 running around all day, and, you know, 11 sometimes things happen. 12 : Understood. But in this 13 case, wasn't Epstein at your most high-profile 14 inmate? At that time. 15 : I mean, besides my terrorist 16 inmates that I had up there on Ten South. 17 : Well, I guess, at least 18 the Nine South. 19 : I would say he was a high- 20 profile. Yeah. He was a high-profile inmate. 21 : Is it, I mean, on that 22 note, don't you think that they would have, you 23 know, found it pretty important to notify? 24 Especially they - and I don't know that we 25 brought this today - but there was even signs EFTA00059013

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 2 3 4 5 up that they created, saying, "Mandatory 30- minute rounds on Epstein, signed by God." Or something, you know, along the lines. Not, you know, meaning, like, do this. You know? Like 6 : No, that was me. 7 MR. HAYES: Is that right? 8 : That was me. No. I mean, I 9 mean, but it was emphasized to them. I mean, 10 so, no one could say that they didn't know. 11 : So, point being, there 12 was, like, signs specific to even Epstein, 13 check on this guy every 30 minutes. 14 : Right. 15 : You know, orange signs 16 that are posted up there. 17 : Right. 18 : So, point being, with 19 this -- 20 : It should have been passed 21 up. 22 : -- and that is where -. 23 So, for us, I guess -- 24 : Right. 25 : -- again, and I know that EFTA00059014

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 you are probably trying to, you know, hesitate 2 on maybe saying, like, this person did 3 something wrong, but really, who dropped the 4 ball here? Knowing, though, that you could 5 take a look, the day before, all these people 6 are the ones who received the email -- 7 : Right. 8 : -- in custody. And so, I 9 know we see Rice. I'm sure - I'm 10 assuming would be on there. 11 : I think Perez is on there. 12 : Who? 13 : Is Perez on there? 14 : It's just -- 15 : I didn't see Perez. 16 : -- maybe. 17 : But again, this one, that 18 one is not even as clear. This one 19 specifically spells out -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- this one, you would 22 actually have to go in and look at this 23 prisoner's schedule report. 24 MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me just take a 25 look, just so I have, my mind is clear. There EFTA00059015

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 is a prisoner's schedule. The prisoner's 2 schedule literally means prisoner's schedule. 3 : Well, yeah. So, the 4 prisoner's schedule report is something like 5 6 7 this, but it will tell you that they are either going to, like, transfer, or they are going to go to court. Whereas this other document that 8 was sent to R&D was just specifically about the 9 transfer. 10 MR. HAYES: Okay. But there is nothing 11 that says recreation, personnel care. It's 12 mostly going to and from court, or leaving the 13 institution. 14 : Yeah. Because it's a 15 prisoner's schedule. 16 MR. HAYES: Okay. 17 : Report. 18 MR. HAYES: Okay. 19 : So, it's, like, what they 20 are scheduled to do. Sorry. Yeah. No. It's 21 not, like, what their daily schedule is. Like, 22 in the institution. 23 MR. HAYES: Right. 24 : It's a U.S. Marshal 25 Service report that is provided to the BOP, so EFTA00059016

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11- 1 that they know which inmates 2 MR. HAYES: Right. 3 : -- they need to produce, 4 and for what reason. 5 MR. HAYES: Okay. Got it. 6 : Now, is that correct? 7 : Yes. 8 : So, yeah. Based upon 9 what you are looking at here, on the 8th, and 10 then again, what we know about at the 11 very least producing, at 8:00, knowing he was 12 WAB, and R&D knowing he was WAB. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : What should have happened 15 there? Like, who, in your opinion here, 16 dropped the ball? 17 : I think at all levels, it 18 was the checks and balance. If it went to the 19 lieutenant's office, somebody should have 20 picked it up. Working in the unit. It should 21 have been passed up to the lieutenant's office. 22 So, there were a couple of safety nets that 23 could have caught it. 24 : So, pretty much everybody 25 dropped the ball? EFTA00059017

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 : I mean, if we're looking at 2 it like this, if you're saying going by an 3 email being sent around. 4 : Well, not only the email, 5 6 but I mean, the email, I can understand if people are busy and they don't always, you 7 know, this one -- 8 : Right. 9 : -- it would be hard to - 10 that one would be hard to -- 11 : Right. 12 : -- you know, say that you 13 didn't know. This one, I could see maybe, you 14 know, the prisoner's schedule 15 : Well, this one, I don't 16 : -- (Indiscernible 17 *01:48:52). 18 : I mean, I don't know what 19 gets sent out. I know, if this whole thing, I 20 don't know if it gets sent out to the staff. I 21 think more -- 22 : Well, this is -- 23 : -- of a condensed version. 24 : -- this is with this. 25 : Right. EFTA00059018

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 : So, this was what was 2 sent with this. This was sent specifically, 3 just that. It's not a document. That's the 4 body. 5 : Right. That was sent. 6 : But that is, again, R&D. 7 : Right. 8 : But, which again, R&D 9 we didn't cover this - R&D is outside of 10 custody. Correct? 11 : Right. 12 : But speaking with R&D, 13 they said they would have produced this list, 14 which SHU would have had, as well as ops 15 lieutenant -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- the lieutenant's 18 office, all the housing units, which listed 19 Reyes as WAB. 20 : Right. 21 : Do you know if they are 22 actually looking - like, the lieutenant's 23 office, people in the lieutenant's office, or 24 the ops lieutenant, activities lieutenant - are 25 they actually look at that list and saying, or EFTA00059019

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 that's just based upon the busyness of their 2 day? 3 : Yeah. I wouldn't speculate. 4 I mean, I don't know. I can't say what -- 5 : Okay. 6 lieutenant is looking at 7 stuff. I mean, it's, like, the documents. 8 : No. I mean, but should 9 have they, I guess is the question? 10 : As far as what? Emails that 11 are coming through, on who's leaving? 12 : No, no, no. This would 13 be a physical paper that they were provided. 14 : Right. 15 : Internal would go around 16 and provide everybody with this physical paper 17 that they create, and then, they apparently 18 destroy it at the end of the day. 19 : Right. So, I don't know if 20 the, you know, when internal gets the forms to 21 go, they are dropping it off at different 22 units. So, I don't know if one was passed off 23 to the lieutenant. The lieutenant would - I 24 guess this probably be the only document -- 25 : No, no, no. EFTA00059020

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 151 : -- they tear up. : We are being told, by the 3 lieutenants, as well as -- 4 : Right. 5 : -- by R&D, they all have 6 it, and they all, and it would all - and it 7 would have said WAB. Unfortunately, I haven't 8 found that document to show you this is what 9 I'm referring to. But it's a document they 10 apparently create, which they call the court 11 production list. Are you 12 : The court list. 13 : -- yeah. 14 : I've heard of the court 15 list. 16 : But it's like a -- 17 : And it -. 18 : -- from my understanding, 19 it is an informal document that they are just 20 providing so that, you know, these are the 21 people that we need to produce today. 22 : For internal, yeah. The 23 internal officer goes around and drops them off 24 at every, you know, every unit, like hey, I 25 need this guy, I need that guy. It's a court EFTA00059021

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 list. 2 : Yeah. 3 : In the morning. 4 : Exactly. 5 : So, yeah, that's not 6 anything that's kept on record. 7 : Right. So, I guess the 8 question, though, being that they had these 9 court lists, is another one of these checks and 10 balances? Or is that really just for the 11 Special Housing Unit? 12 : I think they You mean as 13 far as the court list, I don't understand your 14 question, but -- 15 : Yeah. It's just getting 16 back to the point of, like, Reyes left. We 17 were notified on the 8th. He left on the 18 morning of the 9th. 19 : Right. 20 : Epstein was found on the 21 10th. Didn't have a cellmate for 24 hours, and 22 we knew for almost 48 hours. What should have 23 happened, and who didn't do their job? Is 24 really the question. 25 : And like I said before, when EFTA00059022

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 the notification, whoever was on the unit, knew 2 that he was leaving, it should have been passed 3 up to his supervisor. 4 : All right. 5 : This guy is leaving. But 6 then, okay, let's say the supe, or whoever is 7 working in there, doesn't do it, and somebody 8 should have stepped up and said, hey, this guy 9 needs a cellmate. And notified the 10 that he needs a cellmate. 11 : And that goes back to my, 12 anyone that was working in the SHU, should have 13 made that notification. 14 : Should have said it. It 15 doesn't just -. Just because you are not OIC, 16 doesn't mean all the responsibilities falls on 17 you. It's everybody's job up there to say, 18 hey, okay, we need to, you know, this is what 19 we need to do. 20 : And would that be the 21 case for, when he left during the day shift 22 : Right. 23 : -- the next shift is the 24 night shift, when he would have - I believe 25 during the night shift - he would have come EFTA00059023

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 back -- 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : -- and again, if they 4 were doing rounds, they would have noticed that 5 Reyes wasn't there in the first place. But 6 also, certainly, when they brought -- 7 : Epstein back. 8 : -- Epstein back to his 9 cell. There would have been no cellmate in 10 there. 11 : You should have known he was 12 a cellmate. 13 : And would it be the same 14 thing for the morning shift? That they would 15 know that Epstein was in there alone? 16 : Because if the morning shift 17 is doing their 30-minute checks, you would have 18 realized he was in there by himself. 19 : So, should have every 20 single shift reported it to the ops 21 that there is no one -? 22 : Whoever caught it should 23 have, you know, let's say one shift missed it, 24 the next shift should have picked up and said, 25 you know, called and said, , we got a EFTA00059024

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 - this guy needs a -- 2 MR. HAYES: A cellmate. 3 : -- a cellmate. 4 : And again, I know we're 5 Monday morning quarterback because of the 6 result here, but what is your - as 7 of the institution, on these dates - how do you 8 interpret this? Is this a really significant 9 failure on their part, the not have caught this 10 and passed that information up? 11 : It's not following the 12 directive. I mean, and then, look at result. 13 : Right. 14 : So, I mean, the result is 15 what, you know, caused it to be a serious 16 matter. 17 : Okay. 18 : Yeah. 19 : Now, as far as going back 20 to this memo, do you know why Mr. 21 wrote this memo. 22 : I forgot. I might have 23 called -. I might have called 24 Perez, and said - and I don't know if he was 25 working - said, what happened up there? EFTA00059025

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 : Now, when you say Perez, 2 because he was the ops or are you 3 talking about Rice, who was the SHU 4 : Perez, who was the 5 operations Because first, I know when I got 6 back, somebody told me Rice wasn't at work, 7 because that was my first question. Who was 8 the SHU ? Where they are at. And 9 then, I think I did reach out to Perez, and 10 said, what happened up there? 11 : Okay. 12 : And that's when I found that 13 out. 14 : And did you ever speak 15 with either Perez or about this? 16 : No. 17 : Okay. 18 : Because by the time I had 19 gotten it, was the day -. That, I got that the 20 day of, when I had to go up to, I think the 21 U.S. Attorney's Office. 22 : Okay. To speak with them 23 about this? 24 : When I speak up to them, and 25 them the agent had the memorandum. EFTA00059026

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 : He already had it on him? 2 : He had it on him. Because 3 he was during the interrogation, he presented 4 it to the U.S. Attorney that was there. 5 : And was that the first 6 time you had seen it? 7 : No. I think I -. I don't 8 recall when I first saw it, but I know I had 9 gotten it. And I don't know if I had gotten 10 it, and then sent it up to my boss. And then, 11 given it to the IG. I forgot. I forget his 12 name, and who was handling the case. 13 : For the IG? 14 : Yeah. 15 : Carpenter. 16 : If you weren't giving it 17 to (Indiscernible *01:55:18), it would have 18 been Dave Carpenter. 19 : Because he sat in there with 20 us. 21 : David Carpenter. 22 : So, he - I remember - he had 23 a copy of it. 24 : Okay. 25 : Because we had told him that EFTA00059027

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 they knew that they were supposed to -. 2 : So, not including when 3 you were speaking with the OIG and the FBI, did 4 you discuss this at all with anyone from the 5 BOP, such as Perez or 6 : No. I just got the 7 memorandum, and that was it. Because I was, 8 like, wanting to know, like, what happened. 9 The, you know, the directives were given. What 10 happened? 11 : And when you asked what 12 happened, was there a verbal response? 13 : It was a verbal response. 14 : And what did you -? What 15 were you told? 16 : That they knew he was 17 supposed to -. That had passed it on 18 to other individuals about it. 19 : Now, do you think that 20 that What is your thought process of 21 who is the one who actually presented 22 - excuse me - Reyes to R&D and WAB, what is 23 your thought of him now saying, you know, prior 24 to the end of my shift at 2:00 p.m., I passed 25 it on to the next guy, saying that you guys got EFTA00059028

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 to do it. 2 : Now -- 3 : Do you think he should 4 have done it, passed the information on during 5 his shift? 6 : Yeah. Absolutely. It 7 should have been letting the know. 8 : Uh-huh. 9 : That, hey, this is - we got 10 a guy that needs to be -- 11 MR. HAYES: A cellmate. 12 : -- that needs a cellmate. 13 : I should clarify that. 14 : What? 15 : I think on the elevator it 16 was Monge. 17 : Right. 18 : Monge was escorting Reyes 19 down to R&D. And was escorting 20 Epstein over to attorney conference. They just 21 happened to cross paths, I think -- 22 : Yeah, they were together, 23 though. Right? 24 : -- yeah, but I think Monge is 25 the one that brought him down to the - Reyes - EFTA00059029

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 down to R&D. 2 : Then that would make sense. 3 Because if Monge is internal, internal takes 4 him to court. 5 : Okay. 6 : And then, if somebody is 7 going to R&D, I mean, to attorney visit, then 8 it would be SHU staff taking him. 9 : All right. So, if Monge 10 is the one who is actually providing him to 11 R&D, did he have a responsibility, that if he 12 was WAB, to make any notifications? 13 : I don't know if internal -. 14 You know, Monge was internal, and I don't know 15 if he knew, you know, the situation. 16 : And typically, would it 17 be internal's job - if they come and collect 18 somebody as WAB - would it be their job to tell 19 control, or the ops , to say this guy 20 is off our books, or anything, or -? 21 : No. Because we have a lot 22 of inmates that move in and out. 23 : Sure. 24 : So, he wouldn't be able to 25 keep track of every particular inmate that is EFTA00059030

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 2 3 4 going and coming. Okay. Basically, everyone had a share of responsibility? : (Indiscernible *01:57:54). 5 : All right. Before we 6 belabor this thing anymore, we want to just 7 initial and date these both documents. We can 8 get them out of your way and move on. 9 : All of them? 10 : Oh, yeah. Top of this, 11 top of this. 12 : Okay. 13 : This guy. You know, this 14 one. All right. 15 : Let me take this. 16 : Thank you, sir. Now, 17 prior to this meeting, did you know that Reyes 18 was actually transferred at MCC, and didn't go 19 to court? 20 : Wait, prior to when? 21 : This meeting. 22 : Oh, no. I knew he -. I 23 heard that. You know? After his death, that 24 he was -- 25 : Transferred. EFTA00059031

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- removed. That he was 2 transferred. 3 : Okay. 4 : When I came in on Saturday. 5 : Were you required - or 6 mean - were you aware that the Marshal Service 7 had sent those emails on August 8th, 2019? 8 : I was not aware. 9 : No? Well, did anyone 10 ever, prior to August 10th, did anyone ever 11 make you aware that Reyes was transferred from 12 the institution? 13 : Prior to October 10th? 14 : August 10th. 2019. 15 : I found out when I came in 16 that morning, because I -- 17 : Okay. 18 was, like, where is his 19 cellmate? 20 : Okay. So, you didn't 21 know that he didn't have a cellmate on August 22 9th? 23 : No, I did not. 24 : Now, who was ultimately 25 responsible to make sure that Epstein has a 162 EFTA00059032

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 cellmate? 2 : I mean, if it's the 3 directive that is given out, I mean, whoever is 4 working decide - passes it up, and then, that 5 ensures, you know, to make sure he has a 6 cellmate. So -. 7 : So, SHU staff. 8 : Whoever was working up 9 there. 10 : Okay. When you say 11 working up there, does that include, like, 12 lieutenants doing rounds and things 13 like that? Or -? 14 : Well, yeah, from what 15 transpired, it is obvious the lieutenants 16 didn't know. I mean, they knew he was, based 17 on the email that, you know, they knew he was 18 leaving, but as far as when the finality of it 19 was, when you realize, okay, Reyes is gone. 20 You take Epstein, you bring him back up in his 21 cell, and he doesn't have a cellmate. I mean, 22 something should have went off on somebody to 23 make some notifications. 24 : Okay. I know we're going 25 to talk about counts. EFTA00059033

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Mm-hmm. : Mm-hmm. 164 3 MR. HAYES: Wait, wait. The notification. 4 Would that go up as high as you? If someone 5 would say? 6 : They would send it up to the 7 lieutenants, then they would tell the captain. 8 And the captain would let the associate warden 9 know, and then it would get up to me. 10 : Especially an instance 11 since you have a say in who -- 12 : Right. 13 : gotcha. 14 : We would have to sit down 15 and say, okay, of all the available individuals 16 that are on the unit now, who can we house 17 Epstein with? 18 : Now, what about in this 19 case, where as you actually weren't working 20 that day, would that -- 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- should have they 23 called you -- 24 : Yeah. Whoever is -- 25 : -- on the -? EFTA00059034

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 : -- whoever was the acting 2 warden. 3 : That would make the 4 determination? 5 : She would have made the 6 determination to. 7 : Who was the acting warden 8 that day, do you know? 9 : I don't know if I left 10 or in -- 11 : Okay. 12 : -- as the acting. 13 : One of those two. 14 : It would be one of those 15 two. 16 : And it wouldn't be the 17 18 : No. He's the executive 19 assistant. 20 : Now, what is the 21 difference between, like, an executive 22 assistance and an AW? 23 : The associate warden is a 24 GS-14, and the executive assistant is a 13. 25 : Okay. So, they are not - EFTA00059035

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : No. 3 : -- but what, is that 4 executive assistant just mainly to assist you 5 in your functions? 6 : He assists in the functions. 7 I had also given him some other departments to 8 monitor. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : So, they manage, also, those 11 other departments. 12 : Okay. 13 : I just got a question. I 14 don't know if you may be asked him about the 15 backup list. Was there a backup list of names? 16 : For? 17 : I think, I think we did 18 talk about it, but if Reyes - we did 19 : Okay. 20 : -- but -- 21 : Sorry. 22 : -- when we talked about 23 if Reyes was removed because the institution 24 always has people coming and going -- 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059036

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 1 -- so frequently, was 2 there, like, a list that was set in place, that 3 we would now consider these people, or would it 4 be just the whole new -? 5 : No. Because we would have 6 to base it on who was there. 7 : Okay. 8 : Because of the turnover in 9 the unit. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : All right. Now, we're 12 going to get into counts. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : So, this is an email sent 15 from you to . It's the count slips 16 for -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : -- it was sent on 19 Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 5:11 p.m. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : This shows, ZA is the 22 SHU. Correct? 23 : Right. 24 : So, this says, at 8:10, 25 it shows that the count for ZA was 73. Signed EFTA00059037

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 by M. and Ms. Noel. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : And it says, that count 4 was done, it looks like, at -- 5 : 12:01 a.m. 6 : -- 12:01 a.m. And then, 7 we get the next one is at 3:00 a.m. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : It goes down to 72. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : At 5:00 a.m., there is 12 72. And here is the count, the institutional 13 count, it shows 72 at - what time? - 12:00 a.m. 14 Or no. This one is 3:00 a.m. 15 : 3:00 a.m. 16 : I don't know why this is 17 all out of order. 5:00 a.m. So, at 12:00 18 a.m., this says 72. 72. 19 : I think that was just an -- 20 : 72. 21 : -- attachment to that email 22 that you sent. 23 : So, but as you know, as 24 you notice, one of them said -. So, the count 25 slip said 73 for 12:00 a.m., over the EFTA00059038

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 institutional count. And as you see here, for 2 12:00 a.m., it said 72. 3 MR. HAYES: By the institution, you mean 4 the SHU? 5 : No. The institution. 6 : It means the whole. 7 : MCC does a count -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- and -- 10 MR. HAYES: Right. 11 : -- it's what the official 12 13 MR. HAYES: The count. 14 : -- number show -- 15 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Okay. 16 : -- the SHU, these count 17 slips are supposed to be the -. Actually, let 18 you, you can answer my question. What is 19 supposed to be the difference between what 20 happens with the count slip, and what happens 21 with the institutional count? So, I'm not 22 answering your question. 23 : So, what happens is, on the 24 shift, you call the count, and the different 25 units call in the count to control center. EFTA00059039

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 : And how do they get that 2 count number? 3 : From counting. They have to 4 go around and count. 5 : Physically counting an 6 inmate? 7 : You have to -- 8 : Correct? 9 : -- physically count the 10 bodies. 11 : And then, they take that 12 total amount of inmates, and they call that 13 into the control center? 14 : They call that into the 15 control. 16 : And where does the 17 control center get their numbers from? 18 : This is what is called an 19 El. Which is a print out of the number of 20 inmates in each unit. 21 : Right. 22 : So, if an instance, for 23 example, we look at BA unit. So, there is 24 supposed to be 26 in there. If somebody calls 25 it in there, they say, it says 25, they tell me EFTA00059040

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1-I 1 it's a bad count. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : So, they have to go back and 4 count again. 5 : So, the El is created 6 based upon what inmates are listed within your 7 system. 8 : Right. 9 : The count slips are based 10 upon how many inmates they actually count. 11 : What they count. 12 : And the purpose of that 13 is what? Why are the inmates counting inmates, 14 and why are they providing that number to 15 control? 16 : So, we make sure every 17 inmate is in the institution. 18 : The accountability of the 19 inmates. Correct? 20 : Yes. 21 : Great. So, the - so, 22 does that answer your question? 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : So, the next email is 25 sent about one hour later, at 6:13 p.m., on EFTA00059041

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 August 10th. It says, "Why did the count 2 change from 73 to 72 between 12:00 a.m. and 3 3:00 a.m.?" 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Do you remember what your 6 response was to that? 7 : I don't. 8 : And then, this one is 9 another one from III to yourself. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : It says, "The 12:00 a.m. 12 count slip reads 73, and the 12:00 a.m. -- 13 : El. 14 : -- El says 72." 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : So, those kind of go 17 together. Do you remember what your findings 18 were there? 19 : I don't remember. Because 20 typically what happens on the count, you are 21 supposed to - the lieutenant is supposed to 22 take one count at night, and then review 23 documentation. So, I don't know what happened 24 with the discrepancy. 25 MR. HAYES: I mean, this isn't really that EFTA00059042

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 1 relevant, because we noted Epstein was there. 2 : No. It's relevant for 3 our investigation. 4 : Right. 5 : All right. So, if you 6 don't mind, just initialing and dating that, 7 and then, we can explain to you why that is 8 relevant. So, you don't, though, recall? You 9 didn't find out what actually happened? 10 : I don't recall what the 11 response is I gave. 12 : No? And do you remember 13 looking into it at all? 14 : When was that sent? 15 : That was the day 16 : When did he send it? 17 : -- that was the day of. 18 : The day of. 19 : The day Epstein was 20 found. 21 : I don't because it was just 22 so much going on. 23 : Yeah. 24 : That I can't really remember 25 what, how I responded to them on that day. EFTA00059043

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 : Do you remember learning 2 anything about the accuracy or inaccuracy of 3 the counts, on the 9th and 10th? 4 : What do you mean the 5 accuracy and inaccuracy? 6 : Like, if the counts were 7 actually accurate or not. 8 : I don't recall that. 9 : You don't recall -- 10 : No. I can't think of that. 11 : -- finding out about 12 that? 13 : No. 14 : Did you recall, did you 15 find out if the SHU counts and rounds were not 16 conducted by the SHU on August 9th or 10th, 17 2019? By the SHU staff. 18 : If they did rounds or not? 19 : Correct. Did you find 20 out if the SHU staff had conducted both 30- 21 minutes rounds, as well as the institution 22 counts on August 9th and 10th? 23 : I don't know if it was after 24 the fact that I was told that the Officer did 25 make their rounds. And I don't recall if it EFTA00059044

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 was, they put it in the logbook, that they made 2 rounds, but that in all actuality, it wasn't 3 done. 4 : Okay. 5 : So, that might have been 6 something that came up afterwards. 7 : But you are not super -. 8 You know, this, you don't really know what 9 happened or didn't happen? 10 : That day. Because I mean, 11 it happened that weekend, everything was 12 moving, and then, by Monday -- 13 : Right. So -- 14 everything else just 15 changed. So -- 16 : -- but on the 10th or 17 11th, you didn't hear -- 18 -- I didn't -- 19 -- find out? 20 : -- hear anything about, 21 recall anything about that. 22 : But had you heard that 23 they didn't at least conduct some of their 24 rounds and counts? 25 : That they didn't? EFTA00059045

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 176 : That they did not. : It was - and I don't want to 3 use the word that it was just, you know, an 4 assumption, you know, like, because one of 5 them, I had asked to come up and speak with, 6 but it was , and he wouldn't come up. 7 : And this was on the 10th 8 in the morning? 9 : This was on the 10th, when 10 we got him up, because I wanted to speak with 11 him because people were telling me he was 12 distraught. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : So, I wanted to make sure he 15 was all right. You know? And he just, he 16 didn't want to come up and talk. 17 : What are your thoughts of 18 as an employee? 19 : I've known a couple 20 years. I never had any issues with him. You 21 know, it was any, you know, like any other 22 employee, you do something, I correct you on 23 the spot, and that's it. But I have never 24 encountered him to do anything, known him not 25 to count, do his job, you know? EFTA00059046

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 177 : What about Ms. Tova Noel? : She was new. So, she had 3 just gotten there. You know, she got the same 4 spiel from me that everybody else does. You 5 know? You are new. You can't do the things 6 that somebody at 20, that has 20 years in it. 7 They're not doing their job, you shouldn't be 8 following it. 9 : And did you -- 10 : So -. 11 : -- actually speak with 12 her about that? 13 : Oh, I do that in my 14 (Indiscernible *02:09:22) class, when they 15 first come in. 16 : Okay. So, that is 17 something -- 18 : And I had -. 19 : -- you would have said to 20 everyone? 21 : Oh, I said it clear as day. 22 And same thing I would say in my ART class. 23 Annual Refresher Training. 24 : Because this is -- 25 : (Indiscernible *02:09:34). EFTA00059047

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 : -- one of her excuses, 2 saying that 20 year guys, I'm following them, 3 they are not doing it, so I'm not doing it. Is 4 that something you clearly entrust -- 5 : So, here's my speech 6 : -- to her? 7 : -- my spiel I used to tell 8 people. I said, go ahead and follow that 20 9 year guy, and you are on probation, guess what 10 happens? He might get some time in the street. 11 You're getting fired. 12 : And are you confident 13 that Ms. Noel would have heard that speech from 14 you? 15 : She heard the speech from 16 me. 17 : Okay. 18 : Yeah. I'm confident. 19 That's the speech I gave everybody. Same thing 20 in the ART. 21 : Okay. 22 : Yeah. 23 : Good enough. 24 : So. 25 : All right. So, this is EFTA00059048

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 going to go back. This is just my little list 2 that I wrote of exactly what happened, and then 3 I'll read to you, but -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : I just want just for 6 our purposes, I'm going to just show you, and 7 you can refer to them. On this one, at first, 8 going to be the count on the 9th, that was 9 conducted at -- 10 : 4:00 p.m. 11 : -- is this 4:00 p.m. Is 12 this the 4:00 p.m. or the 5:00 p.m. here? 13 : No. This? 14 : 4:00 p.m. 15 : 4:00 p.m. count. There's 16 just signed off -- 17 : No. There's no 4:00 p.m. 18 count. 19 : -- yeah, it's the 5:00. 20 : 5:00. Sorry. 21 : Yeah. It's -- 22 : Yeah. 23 12:00. 12:00. 3:00. 24 And 5:00. 25 : No, no. This is afternoon. EFTA00059049

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yeah. So, this is 2 Friday. 3 MR. HAYES: I'd say (Indiscernible 4 *02:10:40)-- 5 : All right. Friday. Is 180 6 that a -- 7 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:10:41) 8 : -- 4:00 p.m. -- 9 : You told him about overnight. 10 : -- count? 11 : Oh, it's a 4:00 p.m. count. 12 : It's a 4:00 p.m. 13 : Yeah. 14 : Okay. 15 : Then 4:00 p.m. Then 16 there is the 8:00 p.m. 17 : No, no. 4:00 p.m. 10:00. 18 : 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 19 Sorry. 20 : And midnight. 21 : 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 22 Midnight. 23 : 3:00 and 5:00. 24 : 3:00. And 5:00. So, 25 these are basically the time period in EFTA00059050

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 question. Everywhere from 4:00 p.m. through 2 the 5:00 a.m. count the next day, on August 9th 3 and 10th. 4 : Okay. 5 : Here are the lieutenant 6 logs. And these are the emails that, again, 7 I'm going, just going over these just because, 8 so I'm not pulling things out of thin air. 9 These are the -- 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : -- yeah, emails that we 12 were able to obtain. So, this was from a 13 . Who was the 14 at that time. 15 : Right. 16 : Fairly regularly. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : And during the morning 19 watch. So, this one was sent, from her, on 20 Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. It 21 says, these are the August 10th, 2019. Daily 22 activity report. And then, we got the daily 23 lieutenant's log here. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : So, where would this -? EFTA00059051

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 This is just out of order. This should have 2 been first. So, Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 3 sends one at -. So, first, I want to ask this 4 question. So, on Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 5 sends one at 5:11 a.m. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : And Saturday, she sends 8 it at August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : And on Sunday, August 11 11th, 2019, she sends it at 6:15 a.m. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : Now, reviewing all of the 14 lieutenant logs that came out prior to that 15 time, they are all sent out pretty much between 16 5:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : -- by all the various -- 19 : Right. 20 ops lieutenants. Do 21 you find it odd that she didn't send this one 22 out until 9:26 a.m., being that, I know Epstein 23 was found at 6:33 a.m., but typically, they 24 were sent out much earlier than that. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00059052

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 : Is that -? I know she 2 sent it out after the incident, and after, you 3 know, everything happened, but do you think it 4 was weird that she sent that one out at 9:26 5 a.m. versus prior to that 6:33 a.m., when her 6 shift ends at 6:00 a.m.? 7 : I mean -. 8 : She was relieved at 5:30 a.m. 9 by 10 : That's what I'm saying. She 11 wasn't at the -. When I got there, 12 was the lieutenant -- 13 : Correct. 14 : -- who contacted me 15 regarding -. 16 : She was supposed to be 17 gone by 5:30 a.m. 18 : So, yeah. I don't know. If 19 she left at 5:30 or whatever, and I don't know 20 how they (Indiscernible *02:13:07). 21 : Well, that's when she was 22 relieved. She didn't leave until after this 23 was sent out at 9:26 a.m. 24 : I don't recall her being in 25 the institution around then. EFTA00059053

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 : She - after Epstein was 2 found - she actually went into the SHU. She 3 helped with feeding. And then, she went back, 4 and she did some things on the computer. 5 : I thought -- 6 : And she sent it. 7 : I thought relieved 8 her, and she left. 9 : At 5:30 a.m., she was 10 relieved. She stuck around because she said 11 she had work to do. After Epstein was found, 12 she came to the SHU, and assisted 13 , who also wasn't working in the SHU, but 14 was there because he was the Comtech guy. And, 15 at the time, was gone. Noel was there. 16 But at some point, Noel left. 17 : And I'm looking at this, but 18 I was under the impression, when had told 19 me he had relieved her, and she left. 20 : So, do you find that odd, 21 then, that she was still there until -- 22 : Until 9:30. 23 at least 9:30 a.m.? 24 : Yeah. I didn't, I didn't 25 Yeah. EFTA00059054

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 : This is the first you're 2 hearing of this? 3 : Yeah. Because when I was 4 told she was gone. So, unless -- 5 : Because you wanted to 6 talk with her? 7 : -- no. I mean, he relieved 8 her. So, I guess, technically, when you 9 relieve somebody, then, then it becomes your 10 issue. So, I was talking to 11 But I didn't want, you know, I, I assumed she 12 was the one that -. But I heard she had left. 13 I didn't know she had come back. 14 : She allegedly did not 15 come back. She allegedly was there 16 : There. 17 : -- the entire time. 18 : So then, that is kind of 19 odd, because usually, your log is completed 20 before you leave. 21 : Right. 22 : On your log, you will write 23 on there, I'm relieved by such and such. 24 : So, is that suspicious to 25 you at all? EFTA00059055

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 : Kind of. Yeah. But I'm 2 curious as to why you didn't log it down 3 something. 4 : Now, why -? What kind of 5 employee is 6 : Had some issues with her. I 7 mean, I don't want to -. You know, everything 8 that is going on is an allegation. So, I don't 9 want to go speaking on allegations that I have 10 sent up. 11 : Was she a problem 12 employee, then? 13 : I had some issues. Yeah. 14 : Any reason why she 15 believed that she might be involved with 16 Epstein and his death? 17 : Oh, no. I wouldn't put it 18 as far as that. I mean, but it is just, I 19 wouldn't. And I don't know -- 20 MR. HAYES: She's (Indiscernible 21 *02:15:29) to tell. I mean -- 22 : I mean -- 23 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:15:29). 24 : -- that's why I went over -. 25 Can you rephrase your question, like, what are EFTA00059056

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 we saying? 2 : Yeah. I mean, I'm going 3 all the way to -. I just ramped it up to 100 4 miles an hour. I'm just saying all the way to 5 6 : I can't -- 7 : -- to probably, could you 8 -. Was there any reason to believe that she 9 could be potentially involved with this? 10 : As far as doing harm to him? 11 : Keeping his cell door 12 open. And letting another cell door open for 13 someone else. You know -- 14 : I wouldn't -- 15 : -- anything like that. 16 : I wouldn't see that. 17 : No? 18 : I couldn't see that. No. 19 : No reason to believe it 20 would go that far, just maybe insubordination 21 is the highest that she goes? 22 : Yeah. I would, you know, - 23 24 : She -- 25 : -- she has the allegations EFTA00059057

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 up. I know you guys were seeing the 2 allegations. So, I, yeah, but I wouldn't go 3 that far. But I can't -. 4 MR. HAYES: Well, is she in a position to 5 do something like that? 6 : What? 7 MR. HAYES: To leave the door open, or 8 something that's egregious? 9 : She does 10 rounds. 11 : Yeah. 12 : She's the= 13 MR. HAYES: She is in position to do that. 14 : But remember, when you are 15 going down range and the range door keys, you 16 can't have both. Somebody would have to let 17 her down there. 18 : Okay. 19 : And those keys. Those keys 20 go down. 21 : Do you know if she was 22 particularly friendly with either Noel or 23 24 : I don't know what their 25 relationship was. She was the shift 188 EFTA00059058

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 . So, I don't know what 2 relationships. Who she's had (Indiscernible 3 *02:16:48). 4 : For the 8th, I just realized 5 we might not have the daily log for it. 6 : Fortunately, I brought 7 backups of different things. So, I think I got 8 9 MR. HAYES: Jesus Christ. 10 : The 9th and the 10th is in 11 there. 12 MR. HAYES: I keep looking at this pile. 13 I think those eff'ing sons a bitches are 14 working hard. 15 : I don't think the 9th is 16 in there. 17 : Yeah. 18 : Just the 10th. 19 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 20 : No, no. It's the second set. 21 : No, that's the 10th. 22 : No, the dates are 23 : Can I say -? 24 -- the following dates. 25 Sorry. EFTA00059059

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 : Can I see the time 2 (Indiscernible *02:17:14)? 3 : Just, I just want to confirm 4 with that. 5 : Of course. Yeah, yeah. 6 Okay. That's the August 9th. 7 : Yeah. 8 : Okay. Great. 9 : So, those two. 10 : Yeah. 11 : That's the previous date we 12 don't have. 13 : All right. 14 (Indiscernible *02:17:25) right now. All 15 right. So, what did you want to see? 16 : I wanted to see that 9:26 17 one. 18 : Yeah. So, that is -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- and this is what we 21 were going to show you, is the count numbers, 22 that's what we are getting at next. 23 : Wait. Which is the one -? 24 : So, this is from Friday, 25 August 9th. EFTA00059060

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 : Okay. This is at what time? 2 : This just, that says morning 3 watch. 4 : Ish. 5 : Yeah, but why is it saying 6 the 10th? 7 : So, it was, the email was 8 sent out on the 10th morning. Right? But when 9 10 : So, she was -. Her -- 11 : -- she included everything - 12 13 : -- shift -- 14 : -- everything from the 15 previous day. 16 : Yeah, but this is August 17 9th. 18 : They sent it out the dal. 19 after. 20 : Epstein is back. 21 : So, see this one? This 22 one is sent out on Sunday, August 11th, for the 23 day prior, starting -- 24 : Right. So -- 25 : -- Saturday, August 10th. EFTA00059061

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 no, I get that. So, she 2 started. Her shift was morning watch on 3 Friday. Okay? So, she goes to 12:00. So, she 4 is relieved by 5 : So, no, no. 6 : No, this is This should 7 be Thursday into Friday. 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. No. I -- 10 : So then, it goes -- 11 : -- yeah. See. I thought 12 this was -- 13 : -- into day watch. 14 : -- the day of. Then you go 15 to day watch, and it goes to evening watch. 16 Now, what is the -? Which log is it for the 17 day of? 18 : So, this is the day of. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : Okay. 21 : And this is, we are going 22 to get into. So, this one is the day before, 23 August 9th, when Reyes left, and we can look to 24 see on here, as well, where it says -. So, if 25 we go to this 8:38 on the lieutenant's log, it EFTA00059062

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 says that Reyes is pre-removed. Right here. 2 "Reyes to pre-remove at 8:38 a.m." 3 : Okay. So -- 4 : That is August 9th, 2019. 5 So, we're going to go all the way down to 6 The one thing, I guess -- 7 : So, the count 8 : -- we want to look at is, 9 here, we got this individual, lam Fernandez 10 (Phonetic Sp. *02:19:31). Who is on dry cell 11 with staff in R&D watch. 12 : Right. 13 : From the SHU. So, if you 14 look at the count -. Where the heck is the -? 15 : Okay. So, I just want to go 16 back to clarify something with 17 : Yup. 18 with 19 So, we are saying this is at 9:23, she did it. 20 Right? 21 : 9:26. 22 : So - 9:26 -- 23 : She did it. 24 : -- this was on -- 25 : The 10th morning. Saturday EFTA00059063

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 morning. 2 : -- this is when she sent it 3 out. 4 : Correct. Like, three 5 hours after Epstein was found. 6 : And this is 7 : (Indiscernible 8 *02:20:03). 9 : -- Friday's log. 10 : Correct. 11 : That that's -. 12 : But they - the same 13 thing, though - they all seem to sending it out 14 the day before. 15 : The day before. And then, 16 she sent the day before logs out on Saturday. 17 Yeah. 18 : She combined it. If you look 19 through it, it has everything combined. 20 : Right. 21 : It goes from morning watch, 22 day watch, evening watch, into -- 23 : Right. But I'm just -. 24 That should have been done the day before. 25 Okay. EFTA00059064

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 : I don't think you're 2 right, bud. I think she's just doing the 9th. 3 The next day does the 10th. 4 : Yeah. That's right. 5 : Yeah. Okay. 6 : (Indiscernible *02:20:41) 7 combined. 8 : Yeah. That's what -- 9 : Okay. 10 : -- that's why I'm a little 11 confused about. 12 : Yeah. No. She's not -- 13 : Because when she came -- 14 : -- she does the day 15 before. 16 : -- she came on shift at 10:00 17 p.m. 18 : She started her shift at 19 10:00 -- 20 : 10:00 p.m. 21 : -- p.m. 22 : Of the 9th -- 23 : And worked until -- 24 : -- evening. 25 : -- 6:00 a.m., but got EFTA00059065

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 relieved at 5:30. So 2 : That's right. 3 : -- yeah. 4 : The lieutenants were working 5 from 10:00. 10:00 to 6:00. 6 : Correct. Because the, we 7 were told because of traffic issues -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- or something else. 10 : And short -. Yeah. 11 : So, what we want to, and 12 I want to kind of reference here is, Iam 13 Fernandez on dry cell, with SHU staff and R&D. 14 : Right. 15 : And the end of this shows 16 72. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : So, on August 9th, 2019, 19 at 11:59 a.m. - or August 10th, 2019, at 12:00 20 a.m. - there is supposed to be 72 inmates, 21 according to this log that sent 22 out. 23 : Right. 24 : There is supposed to only 25 be 72 inmates there. EFTA00059066

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Right. : Now, look at the shift 197 3 for August 10th, when this person started their 4 shift, there was 73. 5 : So -- 6 : And the institutional 7 logs -- 8 right. 9 show at 12:00 a.m., 10 there were - or so, that looks like - so, there 11 is -. Let's go. So, for ZA, there shows 75 at 12 the 4:00 p.m. count. The 10:00 p.m. count, 13 there shows 73. And then, at the midnight 14 count, there it says 72. However, the count 15 slips, if you recall 16 : 73. 17 : -- where are the count 18 slips? So, it is -- 19 : The counts. 20 : -- it says the SHU 21 submitted a count slip for 73 at 12:00 a.m. 22 Here you go. So, that is not the count. Oh, 23 yeah. There. So, see? 12:00 a.m., they 24 submit it. /Noel submitted 73. 25 Although, the institutional count says 72. EFTA00059067

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 Now, not , but the next one 2 shows that, the next ops lieutenant shows that 3 73 is what is written in this. She went back 4 and changed 72, the day before, with the 9:30, 5 because it was determined -- 6 : That he was on the outcount, 7 and on -- 8 : -- oh, yeah. 9 : -- (Indiscernible 10 *02:22:57). 11 : And so, Fernandez was 12 never removed -. So, look at -. It shows it 13 on this. "One SHU correction. Fernandez dry 14 cell." So, at 12:35 a.m., and we do have 15 Fernandez right here. 16 : Looking back. 17 : Okay. So, this just 18 says, this is what happened with him. He was 19 found to have contraband, that he was providing 20 to a visitor in the SHU, at approximately, 21 like, I think 1:00 p.m. on August 9th. He was 22 moved from the SHU to dry cell. And he was 23 never -- 24 : Keyed in. 25 : -- keyed out. EFTA00059068

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 : What - yeah - what they 2 should -- 3 : Keyed out of the SHU. 4 So, the institutional counts were reflecting -- 5 : 73. 6 : -- 73. That is what the 7 SHU continued reporting. 73. Because that is 8 what - that's what, according to the system, 9 was supposed to be in there. But if they had 10 physically -- 11 : Counted. 12 -- counted -- 13 : They would have known 14 : -- it would have -- 15 : -- he wasn't there. 16 : -- been 72. Correct? 17 : Right. 18 : So, with this 19 information, and I guess as would 20 that suggest to you that they were not actually 21 conducting their counts? 22 : They weren't counting. And 23 then, there is no count slip here for the 24 inmate that was on dry cell in R&D. 25 : Right. EFTA00059069

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 : There should have been a 2 count slip for him over there. So, what should 3 have happened was, the inmate - him - he should 4 have been outcounted in R&D. And then, the 5 R&D, you would have seen one. So, there was a 6 count slip. Whoever is sitting and watching 7 him should have did a count slip on him. And 8 then, whoever his back up was should have done 9 a count slip. 10 : And this is, from my 11 review of everything -- 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : -- this is what I found. 14 I don't want to put my words into 15 mouth, but let me know if this makes sense to 16 you. It says, "Count discrepancy on the August 17 9th, 2019. Per the daily activity report dated 18 August 10th, 2019, and the attachment 19 log from August 9th, 2019." So, 20 that's what we are looking at here. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : "The day began with 77 23 inmates assigned to ZA." Or the SHU. "The 24 5:00 a.m. El institution count, respective ZA 25 SHU count slips, eyes on count shows 77. At EFTA00059070