LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 401 1 : By the lieutenant. 2 : -- the SHU lieutenant or 3 the OIC. 4 : Yeah. 5 : Now, when you say the 6 OIC, does one OIC of one shift take more 7 responsibility than another? 8 : No. They are all on the 9 same shift. So, it would depend on -- 10 : So, like, for instance, 11 was the OIC on the day watch, but -- 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : I think was the 14 OIC on the night watch. 15 : Right. 16 : So, would one of them had 17 more of a responsibility to do this than 18 another? 19 : No. But that should have 20 been done on the initial, when the directive 21 was put out. 22 : So, from Doctor, or Ms. 23 Imeri saying that here's coming off of 24 psychological observation, he needs to be 25 housed with a cellmate EFTA00128208

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 402 1 : Right. That would have been 2 3 : -- on July 30th. 4 : -- put out, and then, when - 5 6 : So, who, at that time, 7 should have noted that in his file? 8 : Well, you would probably 9 have to find out from the captain who he 10 directed to -- 11 : Well, the captain 12 -- to doing that. 13 : -- according to his, you 14 know, his memo that he sent to you -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- it says that he 17 specifically had these conversations on 18 multiple occasions, with -- 19 : The SHU -- 20 : -- Lieutenant 21 : -- right. So, it would have 22 been the SHU lieutenant. Whichever one he had. 23 If was the one, then would have been 24 the one. But -- 25 : Okay. "August 9th, 2019. EFTA00128209

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 403 1 8:00 a.m. Inmate Reyes, the cellmate, departs 2 for court." 3 : Right. 4 : Again, this claims court, 5 but if they are seeing WAB. Actually, you know 6 what? I heard WAB was specific to MCC. Is 7 that correct? 8 : Other institutions will tell 9 you pack up your inmates with all belongings. 10 That's, you know 11 : Because even -- 12 : -- what it is. 13 : -- on their findings, 14 they are showing that he departed for court. 15 : Yeah. 16 : Although, all the 17 documentation we showed says WAB. 18 : WAB. 19 : And transferred. 20 : Yeah. And it says -- 21 : So, even on here, they 22 are getting this wrong? 23 : And that's what the whole 24 confusion is, is the assumption that he was 25 going to court -- EFTA00128210

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 404 1 : Because then it says -- 2 -- when you look at the 3 document -- 4 : -- so -- 5 : -- go ahead. 6 : -- yeah, and then, it 7 says, "Inmate Reyes does not return to the 8 institution." 9 : Right. 10 : So, and this was when a 11 lot of things, when we were first starting this 12 investigation, we heard was court, court, 13 didn't return from court. 14 : Right. 15 : And then, when we 16 actually looked through the record, we were, 17 like -- 18 : Right. 19 : -- court. It's -. 20 : I think people thought, 21 without looking at the documentation, that he 22 went to court and got released from court. 23 : Okay. 24 : So. 25 : So then, I'm just going EFTA00128211

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 405 1 to read the question. If the documents list 2 Reyes as being WAB, and if they had the 3 transfer list, why did they say he went to 4 court and did not return? 5 : I can't answer that. 6 : Okay. "7:00 p.m. 7 Epstein was provided a social call by the 8 institutional duty officer." Does that mean 9 10 : Yeah. He was the duty 11 officer at that time, I believe. 12 : And what does the 13 institutional duty officer mean? 14 : So, what the duty officer 15 is, is after hours, they walk around and, you 16 know, report emergencies, you know -. 17 : Is that, like, the 18 highest ranking official there? 19 : That comes on at night. You 20 know, there with the lieutenants. But they 21 just make sure that if we had any issues, you 22 know, addressing inmate issues, stuff like 23 that. 24 : So, they are kind of, 25 like, the, basically the OIC for the EFTA00128212

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 406 1 institution? 2 : Kind of. I wouldn't say the 3 OIC, but you know, senior staff around. 4 : Okay. "This call was 5 done on an unmonitored line. It is extremely 6 concerning why this call would have been 7 placed, and why it would be done on an 8 unmonitored line. Without further interviews, 9 it is not possible to determine the reason for 10 this call." Just, why does it say, "extremely 11 concerning"? 12 : I don't know. Both are 13 report -- 14 : But I mean, do you also 15 find it extremely concerning? Would you 16 classify it as extremely concerning? 17 : I mean, it would be -. 18 mean, that the choice of words that they use. 19 So, I wouldn't, you know, necessarily say, use 20 the word extremely concerning. But I would 21 think, I would -- 22 : It's certainly wrong. 23 -- it would be -- 24 : But -. 25 : -- it was an issue. But EFTA00128213

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 407 1 extremely concerning. 2 : Okay. "On August 9th, 3 2019, during a shift change in SHU, the SHU 4 number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., officer 5 briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 relief, and the 6 other two, 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. officers, 7 with the likelihood inmate Reyes would not be 8 returning, and inmate Epstein would require a 9 cellmate upon return from an attorney visit. 10 Inmate Epstein was not placed with a cellmate 11 upon his return to SHU." My question to you 12 is, just, how did they know this information? 13 How would they have obtained that information? 14 Do you know? 15 : I don't know. Like I said, 16 I don't know who they spoke to during this 17 after action. 18 : Were they doing 19 interviews, though? 20 : I wasn't there. 21 : Okay. 22 : Yeah. 23 : Were they authorized, 24 though, if OIG and FBI are doing an 25 investigation, is the after action team EFTA00128214

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 408 1 authorized to come in and interview people? 2 : So, I've done after actions. 3 And there is a point where you come to it, 4 where you, if it's an OIG or FBI investigation, 5 that I can't. I mean, I can't question certain 6 people because it might impede an 7 investigation. Like, if you are going to look 8 at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you 9 can't because most of the time, it's been 10 taken. So, I don't know -. 11 : So, possibly from that 12 memo, though, that was created? If they are 13 not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I'm 14 assuming they are not really supposed to be 15 doing interviews. 16 : I mean, I don't know who 17 authorized them to come in and do the 18 investigation. I don't know. It was, you 19 know, who set the parameters on it. I can't 20 speak on that. 21 : And is it a normal for 22 them to do something like this, when there is 23 an actual FBI and OIG investigation? 24 : We do after actions. So, I 25 don't know -. EFTA00128215

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 409 1 : But I mean, do they do 2 after actions typically, when there is an open, 3 criminal investigation, though? 4 : Not typically. 5 : No? 6 : So, I don't know. And 7 again, I don't want to speculate. I don't know 8 who authorized it. I don't know if they got 9 permission from the department to come down and 10 do it. I don't want to -. 11 : Sure. "August 10th, 12 2019." So, this is the day of. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : "6:33 a.m. A body alarm 15 is activated in the Special Housing Unit. SHU 16 staff report inmate Epstein was unresponsive in 17 cell 206-220LAD. Sentry does not reflect this 18 accurately. Staff entered the cell and 19 attempted to wake Epstein. Control center 20 announced a medical emergency, and 21 cardiopulmonary resuscitation," or CPR, "was 22 initiated." So, the question here is, I guess 23 I'll start with. Well, the information that we 24 have is and were there. 25 immediately went into the cell. EFTA00128216

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 410 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : Upon finding Epstein. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : Was it appropriate for 5 him to immediately go into the cell? Or should 6 have he waited for staff to arrive on site? 7 : You should be -- 8 : What? 9 : -- you're trained -- 10 : To go into the cell, I would 11 think. 12 : -- no, you wait for enough 13 staff to get there, and a lieutenant, before 14 you open that door. 15 : Is that right? 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : In other words, suppose the 18 fucking guy is in seizure. 19 : Well, the flip side of it 20 is, he could be trying -- 21 : Remember -- 22 he could be feigning it. 23 we're in a prison. 24 : Yeah. He could be feigning 25 the suicide, and then come on and attack you. EFTA00128217

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 411 1 And guess what? You're the only person there. 2 Now, he has the keys for every range door on 3 that door. 4 : Okay. 5 : And you can lose 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : -- you can lose the unit. 8 : Okay. Okay. 9 : So -- 10 : Yeah. Okay. I made a 11 mistake. 12 : -- that wasn't -- 13 : That's the first time -- 14 : So, he did not. 15 : -- you make a notation, 16 (Indiscernible *04:48:23). 17 : So, he didn't 18 appropriately (Indiscernible *04:48:25)? 19 : Yeah. He didn't 20 appropriately. 21 : And should have he known 22 that from his training experience? 23 : Yeah. Yeah. 24 "7:36 a.m., inmate 25 Epstein pronounced dead by the emergency room EFTA00128218

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 412 1 physician. And we've already addressed this. 2 My question was, was Epstein alive, or did he 3 show signs of -? But we dug into that plenty. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : "On August 10th, 2019, 6 the two assigned morning watch SHU officers 7 failed to make their designated rounds, or 8 count the SHU inmates for two counts. At 6:33 9 a.m., upon finding inmate Epstein unresponsive 10 in his cell, with a torn bedsheet around his 11 neck, staff utilized the body alarm to initiate 12 a call for assistance. The medical response to 13 the incident was timely, efficient, and 14 exhaustive. Staff utilized an AED, as well as 15 a continuous CPR unit care was assumed by EMS 16 personnel." Are you aware of how - what 17 information they obtained to say that the SHU 18 officers failed to make their designated rounds 19 or counts? 20 : I don't know. 21 : No? And I just say this 22 because I know, in reviewing the emails, a lot 23 of this information was provided from you to 24 Ray, and Ray was providing it to whomever, that 25 were -- EFTA00128219

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 413 1 : Right. 2 : -- was doing this, 3 though. 4 : Right. 5 : So, I was assuming, in 6 drafting these questions, that a lot of this 7 information came from you. 8 : But I wasn't here when this 9 was. 10 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. I 11 think a lot of this stuff, though, was 12 provided, you know -- 13 : Right. 14 : -- during the email 15 review, those first couple of days. 16 : Okay. 17 : So, that's why I'm asking 18 these questions, is, like, do you know where 19 this information came from? 20 : No, I don't. 21 : No? 22 : Hmm-mm. 23 : Okay. "Institution duty 24 officers do not routinely visit SHU each day, 25 as required by the institution supplement. EFTA00128220

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 414 1 Additionally, the IDO reports consistently 2 document the condition of SHU as satisfactory, 3 when observations have shown the SHU to be less 4 than satisfactory." Do you have any comment on 5 that? Do you agree with that assessment? 6 : Oh, I don't know what day 7 they went in there. Again, when these 8 observations were done, I wasn't the warden in 9 the institution. 10 : Okay. But prior to, when 11 you were the warden, do you know about the 12 institution duty officers not routinely 13 visiting the SHU each day as required? 14 : No. I didn't know about 15 that. 16 : You didn't know about 17 that. 18 : I didn't. I ensured 19 sanitation. You know? I made sure they made, 20 made sure the areas were clean. So. 21 : Okay. And what was their 22 ultimate responsibility when they would visit 23 the SHU? 24 : I guess same thing, to make 25 rounds in the unit. Check on the inmates. EFTA00128221

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 415 1 Make sure there are no issues. 2 : And is that, like you 3 said, the idea was the guy that's on at night? 4 : That's the duty officer. 5 The institution duty officer. 6 : Always at night, though? 7 : They use - they typically 8 work from, like, 1:00 to 9:00, 12:00 to 9:00. 9 They cover the evening shift. 10 : Because I thought it was 11 explained to me, it was kind of, like, the 12 person in charge when you are not here. 13 : Well, yeah. But then, the 14 other flip side of it go to the other shifts, 15 you know, the operations lieutenant is the CEO 16 in the absence of a warden. So -- 17 : Okay. 18 : -- the duty officer is just 19 the bridge to the executive staff. 20 : But they were actually 21 supposed to be conducting those SHU rounds 22 every day? 23 : And then, again, I don't 24 know if they were or were not. I don't know 25 what they were, you know, what he was looking EFTA00128222

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 416 1 at. 2 : Now, why would, was 3 a reoccurring -- 4 : What? 5 6 Was he a reoccurring -? 7 : No. The duty officers. 8 Like, sometimes, you can get it twice a year. 9 : Oh, okay. 10 : So, I don't -. 11 : But is it, like, a 12 quarterly -- 13 : Well, remember -- 14 : -- submitted post type of 15 thing? 16 : remember, he is also, he 17 is the duty officer, but he is also his unit 18 manager. 19 : But was he -- 20 : So -. 21 : -- the consistent duty 22 officer? 23 : No, no, no, no. They 24 rotate. 25 : Every day? EFTA00128223

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : No. Every week. : Every week. 3 : Yeah. You have other ones, 4 every week. So -. 5 MR. : So, it goes between other 6 unit managers? 7 : Other unit managers. Other 8 department heads. So, it kind of goes, you 9 know? 10 : What is the grade -- 11 MR. : And do they -. 12 : -- level requirement? 13 : The department heads. It's 14 usually 12 or higher. 15 : 12 or higher. 16 : And some, like, maybe some 17 GS-11s. Our trust fund supervisors. 18 : What grade level are you? 19 : Huh? 20 : What level are you? 21 : SES. 22 : Which means? 23 : It's like a general. 24 : No. A staff. 25 : No. It's what it's EFTA00128224

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 418 1 equivalent to. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 : Right. 4 : So, if you're looking at 5 the military equivalent -- 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : Hey, man. 8 : -- it would be -- 9 : I can't be too -- 10 : -- the general. 11 : -- cheap. 12 : No. No. No. I can't 13 afford that. I got kids. 14 : Well, fuck. Why didn't -- 15 : Yeah. 16 : -- why didn't somebody tell me 17 that before? 18 : No, no, no. I got -- 19 : (Indiscernible *04:52:52). 20 : -- yeah. 21 : Yeah. 22 : So, the highest level you 23 can go to in the GS level is 15. And that is 24 basically a full (Indiscernible *04:53:00) 25 colonel in the military. SES is the general EFTA00128225

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 419 1 level. So, don't -. He's being modest. 2 : No. Yeah. 3 : I always liked him anyway. 4 : I did not know. I 5 thought, I assumed you were 15 since your AWs 6 are 14s, though. 7 : No. But certain 8 institutions, you are SESs. 9 : And MCC was one of those 10 institutions? 11 : MCC is one. Your pre-trials 12 are 15s. Your penitentiaries. Your big lows. 13 Like, Fort Dix. Certain mediums. 14 : And have you maintained? 15 Are you still an SES now? 16 : Yes. 17 : Okay. Since this time, 18 have you ever been demoted or anything like 19 that? 20 : No. 21 : No. 22 : You know, man, I really -- 23 : No. Just got -- 24 : I really got (Indiscernible 25 *04:53:45) for this guy. EFTA00128226

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- no. 2 (Indiscernible *04:53:45). 3 You know how, I always give law enforcement 4 guys a big, you know, a discount. But I 4 5 didn't, he's fuck - he's a fucking 6 (Indiscernible *04:53:52) -- 7 : I'm (Indiscernible 8 *04:53:52) a discount. 9 : -- (Indiscernible *04:53:54) 10 couldn't afford him to pay. 11 : Remember, I'm a federal 12 employee. 13 : Federal boys. It doesn't 14 matter if you're a general or not. 15 : We don't make any money. 16 : You're not making a lot 17 of money. 18 : Yeah. 19 : But -. 20 : Remember, I think the 21 president makes, what? 22 : Yeah. 23 : 250, and he's the 24 : 400. 25 : -- 400. EFTA00128227

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Yeah. : Is it 400 now? 421 3 : And the Vice President makes 4 two something. 5 : Yeah, yeah. No. That's 6 7 : And never disciplined. When 8 I was moved, never given a reason why I was 9 moved. I was just moved. 10 : Okay. So, is the report 11 also says that, "Psychology intake screening of 12 Epstein contained errors in identifying 13 details, including that Epstein was referred to 14 as a black inmate, and by different inmate 15 names." 16 : Oh, no. You're kidding me. 17 They said he was black? Hell, that was a 18 mistake. 19 : Do you know anything 20 about that? 21 : I don't know anything about 22 that. 23 : Would that be a 24 psychology issue? 25 : That is a psychology, EFTA00128228

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 whoever was doing that review. 2 : All right. "SHU has 3 multiple cells equipped with video recording 4 capability. Inmate Epstein was not housed in 5 one of these cells. And there appears to be no 6 set guidance on when to utilize these cells." 7 So, you already said you didn't believe, like, 8 he should have been. 9 : So -- 10 : Is that correct? 11 : -- let me correct that. 12 None of the cells, none of the cells that we 13 had in SHU had cameras in the cells that were 14 being, working and being used. The only ones 15 up in SHU that had cameras in the cell is Ten 16 South. 17 : Okay. So, no 18 : So, they -- 19 : -- where else in the 20 institution -- 21 : -- nowhere else in there 2.ad 22 cameras in the cell. 23 : Hmm. 24 : Ten South, we have it in the 25 cells where you can see -- EFTA00128229

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That -- 2 : How about, like, Nine 3 South lower, or something like that? Would 4 they? Isn't that, like, the mini Ten South? 5 : That's the - yeah - that's 6 the -- 7 : Or G tier. 8 : G tier. 9 : That's not -- 10 : Right. 11 : -- what this is. 12 : So, that -- 13 : Did they have cameras? 14 : -- that did have recording 15 cameras in -- 16 : Just live cameras? 17 in South, yeah. Just 18 Nope. But then, we had no cameras on there 19 that had live cameras in the South. 20 : Okay. So, only 21 : Ten South. 22 : -- Ten South. 23 : Only Ten South. 24 MR. : So -- 25 : So -. EFTA00128230

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 424 1 MR. : -- this statement might 2 actually associate Ten South as part of the 3 SHU. 4 : Right. Because a lot of 5 people that come in, when they first come in, 6 Ten South is part of there, actually part of 7 Nine South. We call it -. It's part of an 8 annex. So, when most people come in, and they 9 have never been there, they don't 10 differentiate. 11 : So, being that these are 12 BOP individuals that did this report, what is 13 your response to them saying that there appears 14 to be set guidance on when to utilize these 15 cells? If they are referring to Ten South. 16 Was there guidance on that? 17 : Yeah. Ten South, like 1 18 said, was specifically for the SAMs inmates. 19 : So, do you -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- also believe that tnat 22 is an incorrect statement, then? 23 : If that's what they are 24 referring to, I do believe it is. 25 : And you believe there was EFTA00128231

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 425 1 no other working cameras, outside of Ten South? 2 : Ten South is -- 3 : For a single cell. 4 : -- is the one where we had 5 our cameras. 6 : Okay. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 : Because we had also been 9 informed that there were cells outside of Ten 10 South that had cameras in them, specifically I 11 think G tier. That's inaccurate? 12 : G tier. There is no 13 recording of inmates in those cells. 14 : Just live? 15 : And I don't even believe 16 live. I know the only ones we had was Ten 17 South. 18 : Okay. 19 MR. : We also heard that Ten South 20 wasn't supped to be utilized anymore. It was 21 actually supposed to be phased out. 22 : It was supposed to be what: 23 MR. : Phased out. 24 : What do you mean phased out? 25 MR. : He was actually brought up, EFTA00128232

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 brought out during the time, after 9/11, to 2 house terrorists inmates. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : Have you ever heard anything 5 about the fact that no one was supposed to be 6 housed up there anymore (Indiscernible 7 *04:57:12)? 8 : No. It's not -. It's not 9 to house terrorists' inmates. It's to house 10 inmates that have a SAMs on them. So, mostly, 11 the most of the inmates that have SAMs on them 12 are terrorist inmates or, you know, maybe an 13 inmate housed for espionage. You know? And 14 then -- 15 MR. : Was it supposed to have been 16 phased out due to PREA concerns? 17 : I didn't -. I don't know 18 anything about that. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 : No. 21 : Okay. The next one is, 22 the report also shows that, "A review was done 23 regarding the overtime conducted by the C.O.s 24 at the MCC, and the shortage of staff." It 25 doesn't say much about it. Do you know what 42.5 EFTA00128233

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 427 1 the overall team's finding was? Do you agree 2 that there was a shortage of staff? 3 : Yeah, there was. I mean 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : I'll give you an example. 6 We were short staffed. I was relieving 7 officers on their posts, and on some weekends, 8 I would come in and work a post. I mean -- 9 : You, as the warden? 10 : -- as the warden. I mean, 11 we had -. We were short. I mean -. 12 : Now, is there a Was 13 there a way to rectify that issue? 14 : We could. I mean, hiring. 15 We had, I mean, 40 or 50 staff on OWCP 16 (Phonetic Sp. *04:58:23). 17 : And can you explain what 18 that is? 19 : Workers compensation. 20 : Oh. And what was the 21 percentage there, you said? 22 : About 40 or 50 staff on it. 23 : 40 or 50 staff. 24 : Yeah. On there -. 25 : Did they seem to abuse EFTA00128234

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 428 1 that? 2 : We all knew it was an abuse. 3 I mean, we -. We had even had conversations 4 with the IG about, you know, you're going to 5 the same doctor. But I mean, I understand. So 6 7 : So -- 8 : -- every -. 9 : -- they were all using the 10 same doctor? 11 : The same doctor. But again, 12 I understand, every agency is short. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : I mean, so, we just had that 15 constant problem. 16 : That's, like -- 17 : You know? 18 : -- they use some of these -. 19 Some things, they use the same expert witnesses 20 all the time. 21 : Right. The hiring. We haa 22 a lot of department heads that we would use to 23 cover. Some of my associate wardens, you know, 24 would cover. So, it was just, you know, had to 25 make do with what we had. EFTA00128235

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 429 1 : Now, was there, like, a 2 plan in place to try to get you guys up to 3 proper staffing levels? 4 : I mean, we were working on 5 hiring. You know, and getting people in. But 6 it's a process. You know? To get somebody 7 hired, it takes between six and eight months. 8 : And were there a number 9 of people in the pipeline? 10 : Not really. I mean, we went 11 out and did recruiting, because we were 12 competing with other agencies. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : You know? Other agencies 15 are hiring, you know, and we had incentives. 16 You know? To get people on. So, it was just a 17 matter of, you know, getting people on board. 18 : And do you think it could 19 have been handled better by some, in some way, 20 by the BOP, in order to rectify that issue? 21 : There's certain things we 22 don't control. Staffing. You know, the 23 budget. We don't -. I don't -. We don't 24 control that. I mean, we can turn around and 25 say, I want this, but once the law is passed, EFTA00128236

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 430 1 and it said, this is what you are getting, you 2 don't -. We need to work with what we've got. 3 : No, and I understand 4 that, that as, like, as far as the BOP goes. 5 But I mean, the MCC, especially, you know, 6 covering Epstein in a lie *05:00:18), and 7 having such high-profile inmates. Was there - 8 do you think that there could have been 9 anything done better, though, by the BOP, to 10 make sure that your institution, specifically 11 MCC, was better staffed? 12 : You could - so, let's go TDY 13 - we couldn't really, couldn't TDY to a point, 14 but then, there are other institutions around 15 the agency that were, you know, the staffing 16 was an issue. So, they can't send somebody out 17 to help, you know? And then, it just brought 18 down the finding. I mean, and getting people 19 to clear your background. Not everybody can 20 clear a background to work. I mean, yeah, we 21 can go out in the street and say, hey, we got a 22 job for you, but can you pass the guidelines? 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : And a lot of time, do we 25 know. EFTA00128237

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 431 1 : All right. So, we're 2 literally less than half of a page left. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : But this next one is just 5 going to be, I'm going to have you just kind of 6 read it -- 7 : Okay. 8 : -- along with me because 9 it's so long. "He was also an inmate who had 10 risk factors for assault by other inmates, and 11 did require careful selection for appropriate 12 cellmates. Although these issues were noted, 13 well documented, and communicated, a failure 14 still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be 15 placed in the cell alone. Although feasible 16 for an inmate to effectuate suicide while 17 housed with a cellmate, the odds of this 18 occurring are significantly lowered when housed 19 with another inmate." 20 The report continues. "It is apparent 21 various staff at the institution made a point 22 of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned 23 cellmate. The captain personally instructed 24 the lieutenants, individually. A mass email 25 was distributed by psychology, and it is EFTA00128238

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 apparent some SHU officers were aware. 2 Although many people acknowledge this is an 3 important fact, ultimately, the final staff 4 responsible for not - or did not ensure the 5 requirement was met, including vital 6 directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and 7 a mass email does not ensure -." (Indiscernible 8 *05:02:20) -- 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- including vital 11 directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and 12 a mass email does not ensure those who truly 13 need that information do, in fact, receive it 14 timely. In this case, inmate Epstein was 15 actually placed with a cellmate when removed 16 from psychological -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : -- observation. After 19 that moment, it is clear there was no 20 additional written directive, or a fail safe 21 system established, to ensure inmate Epstein 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : -- would have had a 24 cellmate going forward." So, I guess, first 25 and foremost, do you believe, probably the 4 EFTA00128239

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 433 1 primary reason why Epstein was able to take his 2 own life was because he didn't have a cellmate? 3 On top of the fact that they weren't conducting 4 rounds in SHU? And counts. 5 : I can't speak to the 6 mindset. Only I can speak to is, he killed 7 himself. 8 : But what I'm asking is, 9 would it have certainly helped prevent his 10 death by one) having an inmate; and two) having 11 rounds and counts conducted? 12 : Oh, if people did their job. 13 : Right. 14 : You know? And -. 15 : Like, obviously, if he 16 killed himself, he did it. 17 : Right. 18 : But the way that the 19 government can better ensure that that doesn't 20 happen is by ensuring that, when it is mandated 21 that someone has a cellmate, they have a 22 cellmate. 23 : Right. 24 : And when they do their 25 job, like you just said, they conduct rounds EFTA00128240

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 434 1 and counts, that -. Is that what you believe 2 would have helped keep him alive today, if, you 3 know, from the government perspective? 4 : I mean, again, I'm going to 5 just say, I can't say what would have kept him 6 alive, but I will say, you know, if people made 7 their rounds, did their job, followed 8 instructions that they were given, then it 9 might have -. Could have minimized what, you 10 know -- 11 : The risk. 12 : -- you know, what happened. 13 The risk. But I can't talk to, you know, if he 14 would have done it or not done it. If that 15 would have stopped him. 16 : Now, as far as this last 17 sentence, what they wrote, "After that moment, 18 it is clear there was no additional written 19 directive, or fail safe system established to 20 ensure inmate Epstein would have a cellmate 21 going forward." What do you think could have 22 been done, and who should have done it? 23 : So, directives and the 24 information was conveyed to people verbally, 25 documented on forms, on what you are supposed EFTA00128241

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 435 1 2 3 4 to do. There was signs up. : Now, what signs do you know that were up? : No, I mean, the one you read 5 to me, about the sign about doing the 30-minute 6 checks. 7 : Oh, I think this is -- 8 : So -. 9 : -- specifically talking 10 about the cellmate requirement. 11 : No. I mean, (Indiscernible 12 *05:05:02) cellmate requirement. It was put 13 out by the captain. Directives were given. 14 Staff was spoken to. You know, it's kind of 15 boiled down to people not doing their job. I 16 mean, if I tell you, you have to do something, 17 it's given to you in writing, what more do we 18 have to do? 19 : Well, that's kind of my 20 question, because the BOP is the one who wrote 21 that finding. So, I'm curious myself -- 22 : I mean, that's 23 : -- what you think -- 24 : I mean -- 25 : -- that could have been EFTA00128242

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 done. 2 : -- that's somebody's 3 opinion. 4 : Right. 5 : You know? That's a Monday 6 morning quarterback that came in and make an 7 opinion. I don't know what their ulterior 8 motive is 9 : Can you think of any -- 10 for making it. 11 : -- anything that wasn't 12 done? Can you think of anything, like, oh, if 13 this could have helped, or maybe he should have 14 done that? As far as the cellmate requirement. 15 : I can't think of anything 16 they should have done. 17 : No. Okay. 18 MR. : Can I ask? 19 : Yeah. 20 MR. : I know it's bound to - based 21 on once everything comes up, these are 22 questions that they're going to have. So, I 23 got to ask. I know you mentioned that you 24 couldn't have secondary selection. Like, 25 another replacement for Reyes, because inmates EFTA00128243

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 437 1 keep moving. But is it possible that a list 2 should have been created? That, you know, 3 should have told the SHU officers, hey, listen, 4 if Reyes ever gets removed, here is a list of 5 maybe possible five inmates that you could 6 choose from? 7 : But I mean, under, you know, 8 different inmates, we can do that, but he was a 9 high-profile inmate that 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 : I would have had to get 12 that name and run it up to the department, to 13 see if it was okay. it wasn't just him. I was 14 going to arbitrarily say, listen, I need you 15 to, you know, we're going to put this guy -. I 16 was, just like with the other ones, sent up to 17 the department. So, again, it would have been 18 based on who was there. 19 : And because -- 20 : If that. 21 : -- because of that 22 extreme detail that had to go into selection, 23 think what is asking you is, should have 24 there been a list of names that the higher ups 25 signed off on, in case someone was removed, EFTA00128244

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 438 1 they went to court, they didn't come back, they 2 were transferred, things like this. 3 MR. : Like, that's what they list 4 as a fail safe. Like -- 5 : Right. I mean -- 6 MR. : -- as a precautionary 7 measure. 8 : -- it could have been, but 9 then it would have still been based on who was 10 there that day, at the time. 11 : And that's why I think 12 he's saying, like, a list of five people versus 13 one or two. So, if this person is not -- 14 : I don't -- 15 : -- there, what about this 16 one? That one is not there, either. But maybe 17 this guy. You know, that type of thing. Or 18 did you -- 19 : I just -- 20 : -- just stand by a hunch? 21 : -- yeah. I just, I just 22 feel, like, you know -- 23 : Don't know. 24 : -- it was, I can't, no. I 25 mean -- EFTA00128245

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 439 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 -- again, I'm operating in 3 hindsight. I mean, at the time -- 4 : Okay. 5 : -- you know, that's what was 6 done. 7 MR. : Yeah, we know you do. 8 : Yeah. And we are 9 absolutely asking you to operate in hindsight. 10 : Right. 11 : Saying, like 12 : Yeah. 13 : -- Monday morning 14 quarterbacking -- 15 : Right. 16 : -- yourself and your own 17 institution, I get it. But, like, Monday 18 morning quarterbacking this situation 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- what do you think 21 they, you know, they are referring to this as 22 the BOP, and we are not the experts. 23 : Right. 24 : We're coming in. But BOP 25 is saying this. I'm just saying, what do they EFTA00128246

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 440 1 mean by this? 2 : Right. But 3 : And what are some things 4 that could have been done? 5 : -- but those are individuals 6 that are coming in, looking at a situation, 7 that weren't deeply involved in it. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : You know, they weren't the 10 ones that were told, hey, okay, I'm talking to 11 my boss, and it's going all the way up to the 12 department. That wasn't That wasn't privy 13 to them. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : That was a need to know 16 basis. 17 MR. : But unfortunately, everyone 18 is who going to eventually look at this case -- 19 : Right. 20 MR. -- is going to be doing the 21 same exact thing as they are. 22 : No. But what I'm saying is, 23 if we're looking at assessing the situation on 24 what happened in real time, that's what I'm 25 talking about. So, in real time, now, if they EFTA00128247

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 441 1 had known that, hey, you know what? These 2 names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at 3 the same time, maybe it would have been a 4 different thought process. 5 MR. : And was it possible - and 6 maybe you discussed this - was it possible 7 that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have 8 replaced -? Did they have the ability to 9 replace Reyes, if they wanted to, or did they 10 have to come up the chain of command, for the 11 chain of command to tell them who the new 12 inmate -? 13 : They were instructed, hey, 14 let us know when - where he's to have a 15 cellmate at all time - and to notify, let 16 someone know. Because again, due to the 17 individual that he was, you just don't want to 18 throw anybody. 19 MR. : Okay. But doesn't that kind 20 of hinder them from taking action? Let's say, 21 at that point on that day, you are not in the 22 institution, Captain was there, I 23 understand. 24 : There was an acting warden 25 there. You had the executive staff there. EFTA00128248

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 442 1 Just because the warden is not there doesn't 2 mean the institution doesn't run. That's why 3 you have, you know, people acting on your 4 behalf. You know? That could make -- 5 : So, maybe -- 6 those decisions. 7 : -- maybe, what 8 you are trying to ask is, would somebody, since 9 it sounds like you would have to go over your 10 head to even make that decision, has to go to 11 the regional director level, would the 12 associate warden have the ability to go to the 13 regional director, or would have they known to 14 go to the regional director? 15 : So, let's say that did 16 happen, right? They would have -- 17 : Well, it did happen. 18 no, I'm saying, as far as 19 finding out that, hey, he needed a cellmate. 20 So, even though I'm off that day, I'm still 21 working. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : Because I got the government 24 phone. And they're going to call me and tell 25 me, hey, this is what we got going on. He EFTA00128249

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 443 1 needs a cellmate. And then, I would be, like, 2 okay, let's see what we have, so we can send it 3 up. 4 MR. : So, basically, you were 5 always available. Someone was always 6 available, that if the proper notification was 7 being made, up the chain of command -- 8 : Right. 9 MR. : -- a newer inmate could have 10 been assigned. 11 : That's why I carried it. 12 That's why I had (Indiscernible *05:10:23). 13 So, to, I get calls all hours of the night, 14 even if I'm off, I'm not off. If there is an 15 issue, an emergency, I'm called. Yeah. 16 MR. : Okay. And if someone does 17 ask, should the SHU officers have been given 18 the ability? Your answer to that would have 19 been, you have that phone with you, someone 20 should have made that notification. So -- 21 : Right. 22 MR. : -- someone in the higher -- 23 : And they -- 24 MR. : -- of command. 25 : -- and they would contact EFTA00128250

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 444 1 me. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 : So, it was not, like, I'm 4 off on paper. Because I am using my leave. 5 But I'm still on duty because you can call me 6 on my phone. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 : Yeah. 9 : My last two questions. 10 Based on your conversation, and after this -- 11 : Thank God. 12 : -- based on your 13 conversations, and this after-action report 14 that we just reviewed those topics, what are 15 the failures of the BOP that allowed Epstein to 16 die? 17 : I'm not -. I mean, that's - 18 . I think -. I can't -. That's -. You know, 19 like, I - again - I'm speculating, and I'm 20 giving personal opinions. I'm not -- 21 : Again, and I'm not asking 22 you to say why he killed himself. 23 : Right. 24 : Or if he could have. 25 What I'm saying is, what are the failures of EFTA00128251

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 445 1 the BOP? 2 : He killed himself because he 3 ain't stupid. He said to himself, holy shit, 4 I'm going to spend the rest of my life in 5 prison. 6 : Yeah, yeah, and I'm not - 7 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- and I'm not, 10 absolutely not asking -- 11 : No. 12 : -- as far as what is his 13 mental state, and could have he had the ability 14 15 : But I can't -- 16 : -- but are the failures, 17 as you see them, after we reviewed all this, 18 that you believe -. What did the BOP do wrong, 19 in this instance? Unless you don't think that 20 they did anything wrong. 21 : No. I'm not saying they did 22 anything wrong. But again, these are things 23 that you are going to find. I mean, right now, 24 I can look at it and say, we're looking at 25 people not making rounds and all that. But EFTA00128252

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 446 1 there's still an investigation going on. So, I 2 don't want to sit here and speculate 3 : No, but we are the ones 4 5 and say -- 6 : -- doing the 7 investigation, and -- 8 : -- right. 9 : -- you are the leader of 10 the organization that, you know, of the place. 11 That's why this is a very relevant question for 12 you to answer because -- 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : -- you know, this was the 15 facility that you oversaw. 16 : Right. So -- 17 : So, we're just All 18 I'm simply asking is, what do you think the 19 problems are, as you see them? After you just 20 heard everything we just talked about for, it 21 seems like the last five hours. 22 : No. I mean, if we would 23 talk - I mean, you're not counting. You didn't 24 make your rounds in that unit, to check on an 25 inmate. I mean, that is, that is the basics EFTA00128253

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 447 1 right there. 2 : Okay. 3 : You know, we can talk about 4 all the other stuff, but the basic is, you did 5 not go and make those rounds. 6 : And would you also, 7 though, add to that the fact that they didn't 8 replace Reyes -- 9 : Oh. 10 : -- like they wer supposed 11 to? 12 : Yes. 13 : Okay. What actions could 14 the BOP have taken to possibly prevent 15 Epstein's death? 16 : It doesn't sound like -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- still, you were nervous. 19 : Totally. 20 : That's all. I mean, you could 21 have -- 22 : It just, it sounds like 23 they quote, the answer would be, conduct your 24 rounds, conduct your counts. Get a 25 : Do your job. EFTA00128254

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- do your job. Get 2 Reyes -. 3 : 99 times out of a 100, it 4 wouldn't have happened. 5 : Right. So 6 : You know, it's -. 7 : -- but in this case, it 8 does seem, like, a lot of this was a result of 9 - like you keep on saying - people not doing 10 their jobs. 11 : Jobs. 12 : But I mean -- 13 : Yeah. 14 : -- but in all fairness, 15 we've had, since Epstein died, and before, 16 we've had almost 60 suicides. So, it's the 17 same reoccurring theme. 18 : Right. 19 : You know, people not making 20 their rounds and doing what they're supposed to 21 do. 22 : And is that the same 23 thing that's happening with them, they're not 24 doing their rounds or counts? 25 : I mean, and nine times out EFTA00128255

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 449 1 of ten, every time you look into something, it 2 is a matter of them doing checks, you know, not 3 counting, you know? So, it's the normal 4 things. 5 : Are these other 6 instances, where we find out that they didn't 7 have cellmates? 8 : Single cell. You know, I 9 mean, you have access to the data. I mean, you 10 look at it, and you look at the numbers of 11 single cell inmates. But there is instances 12 where, you know, sometimes you do have to put 13 somebody in a cell single. 14 : Sure. 15 : But, you know, there is 16 other suicides, and they don't stop. You know? 17 Some of it is, you know, staff had no control 18 over it, and some staff had control over it. 19 : And I do apologize. I 20 said that was the last question, but I guess 21 should ask. In Monday morning quarterbacking 22 yourself, is there anything that you should 23 have done differently? 24 : Hmm. 25 : As the MCC warden? EFTA00128256

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : As far as what? This 2 situation? 3 : Yeah. Just anything that 4 you feel, like, oh, you know, like, I should 5 have done this better, or I could have done 6 this better. That type of thing. 7 : I can't. 8 : Just for the record, let 9 me just -- 10 : I can't think of anything 11 for that. 12 : -- okay. Anything else 13 you have? 14 MR. : No. 15 : That's it? 16 : Anything that -- 17 : Jesus Christ. 18 : -- you wanted to add to 19 anything, Warden, anything that -- 20 : I didn't know if you said 21 : -- we missed, or you want 22 to -? 23 : -- generally. 24 : No. No. That's it. 25 MR. : Is there anything you think EFTA00128257

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 451 1 we missed asking about? 2 : Don't ask him that. 3 : Not that I can think of. 4 : You have a right to remain 5 silent. (Indiscernible *05:15:06). Guys, 6 listen, you know? 7 : Yeah. No. We got you. 8 : Like, I was impressed that you 9 did that. He couldn't go through this. I 10 would have been to the bathroom, like, I got to 11 do this, I got to do this. I mean, I got to 12 make a phone call. I want to take a nap. He 13 just sat there and answered all the questions. 14 I mean, he's not -- 15 : Yeah. 16 : -- even sweating under his 17 armpits. 18 : And thank you very much - 19 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- for your cooperation - 22 23 : No. I appreciate -- 24 : Especially -- 25 : -- you guys. EFTA00128258

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 452 1 : -- the recording is 2 showing that this is five hours and 15 minutes. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So, this was an epic, epic interview. It is currently 7:18 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent , and I am turning off the recorder. EFTA00128259

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 453 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00128260