LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 301 1 gosh, do we have a recording of this thing? 2 MR. : The second one, too. 3 : Okay. 4 : All right. Now, we are 5 going to get into the actual incident. 6 : Oh my God. Now, 7 (Indiscernible *03:34:06) getting ready to get 8 into. 9 : We don't have much more. 10 I promise. I mean, we are way passed the -- 11 : Yeah. 12 : -- yeah. What is your 13 understanding of what occurred in Epstein's 14 cell on August 10th, 2019? 15 : I don't know. 16 : You don't know? 17 : I didn't go up there 18 : Do you -. 19 : I never saw the cell. 20 : Do you believe if -. Do 21 you know if Epstein took his own life? 22 : That's what I've been told. 23 : Is that your 24 understanding of what happened? 25 : That was what was conveyed EFTA00128108

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to me. 2 : Do you have any 3 information, with regard to anyone else taking 4 Epstein's life? 5 : No. 6 : No. Have you heard that 7 Epstein's cell door was left opened on the 8 night of August 9th, 2019, and/or the morning 9 of August 10th, 2019? 10 : I didn't hear that. 11 : You have never heard 12 that? 13 : No. 14 : Have you heard that any 15 cellmate's in the SHU - any cells within the 16 SHU, any of their doors were left opened on the 17 night of August 9th, 2019 in the morning? 18 : I did not hear that. 19 : On August 9th. No? 20 : Hmm-mm. 21 : Do you know if anyone 22 harmed Epstein? 23 : No. I would have reported 24 it. 25 : All right. So, these are EFTA00128109

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 303 1 the - let's see - this is the Bureau of Prisons 2 Health Services Clinical Encounter. 3 : Right. 4 : Did you get to review 5 this one at all? 6 : No. 7 : It talks about responding 8 to a body alarm at 6:35 for medical emergency. 9 : I think I might have saw the 10 memorandums, but I don't I don't recall 11 seeing this. 12 : All right. So, let me 13 just read this, for the record -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- because it is a very 16 quick one. It says, "Responded to a body alarm 17 at 6:35 for a medical emergency on Nine South. 18 Upon arrival, inmate was received on the floor 19 of his cell, unresponsive, with CPR in progress 20 by correctional officers. The inmate was cold 21 with circumferential bruising around the neck 22 and posterior mottling. Pupils fixed and 23 dilated. No palpus (Phonetic Sp. *03:35:59) 24 pulses, call place for EMS, CPR continued. 25 ED placed. No shock advised. CPR EFTA00128110

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 304 1 continued. Inmate transported to HSU treatment 2 room, with CPR in progress. 18G, heplock 3 (Phonetic Sp. *03:36:12)." No. I'm not going 4 to read the rest of this. It just talks about 5 continued CPR in progress. Are you aware, 6 after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019, 7 at approximately 6:33 a.m., did he ever show 8 any signs of life? 9 : I never -. I wasn't up 10 there. 11 : Yeah. I just didn't know 12 if you had heard -- 13 : No. When I -- 14 : -- (Indiscernible 15 *03:36:34). 16 : -- when I got there, he was 17 already out. 18 : Because they said that, 19 you know, he was declared deceased at the 20 hospital. So, my question is, it sounds like, 21 from this person's report -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- he was -- 24 : Right. 25 : -- there was no signs of EFTA00128111

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 305 1 life. 2 : And that's -- 3 : And I was just wondering, 4 had you heard anything from staff? Was there 5 ever any signs of life, that you are aware of, 6 while after - from the point he was found, on. 7 : Well, the impression that I 8 was given was, he was alive when he left the 9 institution. 10 : So, you believed he was 11 actually alive? 12 : That's what was conveyed. 13 : It was conveyed to you 14 that -? 15 : I think he was still alive, 16 if I remember right. I think he was -. They 17 did the CPR. And then, they got him out. 18 : And who -. So, according 19 to this, again, this person arrived at 6:35 -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : -- they're saying the 22 inmate was cold. You know, "Pupils fixed and 23 dilated. No palpus pulses." Meaning, I'm 24 assuming, that means no pulse. You know? 25 : So, you would probably have EFTA00128112

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 306 1 to look at the response, the staff responding 2 memorandums on what -. 3 : So, up until this date, 4 did you think that he was alive when he had 5 left the institution? 6 : That's what I believed. 7 That was the impression I had. 8 : Can I ask a question? Right. 9 If he was dead when they came, and somebody 10 found him, or even if he was close to death, 11 how long would it have been that he tried to 12 kill himself, and the time that they found him? 13 In other words, does that mean he tried to kill 14 himself 45 minutes before? Does that mean he 15 tried to kill himself 30 minutes before? You 16 understand the question I'm asking? 17 : Sure. I mean, that is 18 something that the medical examiner, you know, 19 makes that determination. 20 : Because obviously, if he was, 21 had done whatever he did, during the time that 22 there was supposed to be a round, and somebody 23 fucked up, you know what I mean? If you are 24 there, with a towel around your throat, that's 25 a hint that you are not exactly in the best of EFTA00128113

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 307 1 moods. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : But the other thing is, you 4 know, I don't know, like you just said, the 5 medical examiner determines, you know, if he's 6 alive or -. 7 : Well, and that was going 8 to become my follow up. First of all, who - 9 this person. It says provider, Joseph Columbo, 10 RN. Is that someone who worked at -? 11 : He was one of the nurses 12 that worked. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : All right. And is it 15 your understanding, by saying provider, this is 16 the person who wrote this report? 17 : Yeah. Typically, who has 18 the encounter fills it, writes it in the 19 system. 20 : Okay. So, up until me 21 reading these out, you actually were under the 22 assumption that he was alive? 23 : Yeah. 24 : When he left. 25 : I thought he was alive. EFTA00128114

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 308 1 Yeah. That was my assumption. 2 : Okay. Does that have 3 anything to do with the fact that the medical 4 examiner is the only one who can declare him 5 dead? 6 : It does, too. 7 : All right. And also -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : I have heard that 10 inmates don't die at prisons. 11 : Well, I mean, people say 12 that, but again, in reality, we - no one in the 13 prison can declare an inmate dead. 14 : Right, right, right. 15 : Even if -. 16 : But is that what you mean 17 by that statement, though? Did you -. I mean, 18 had you heard that he showed signs from life? 19 : From what -- 20 : Because we have heard 21 this -- 22 : -- from -- 23 : -- type of thing -- 24 yeah, from what I 25 : -- before. EFTA00128115

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 309 1 : -- hear, they were still 2 performing life-saving measures on him, even 3 when, from - what do you call it? - EMS coming 4 in there. So, when you say to me that we are 5 performing life-saving measures, I'm assuming 6 that he is still alive. 7 : Right. Like, there is -- 8 : so -. 9 always a chance you 10 could bring him back. 11 : That, you know 12 : Or you are hoping that 13 you are going to resuscitate him. But do you 14 know of any indication of -- 15 : That he was successful -- 16 : -- signs of life? 17 : -- yeah. 18 : I didn't. Again, I'm going 19 off of, assuming that he was still alive 20 because they were still working on him. 21 : Okay. 22 : So, and if somebody start, 23 now, I've been in situations where the 24 paramedics come in, and, you know, they work on 25 them, and they say, you know what? There is EFTA00128116

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 310 1 nothing else we can do. He still hasn't been 2 declared dead. 3 : Sure. 4 : But they still -. 5 : Right. 6 : But from what I gather, they 7 were still working on them. 8 : When you say nobody dies in 9 prison, you are being facetious? 10 : It's just one of those 11 things that -- 12 : Yeah. It doesn't -. 13 : -- it happens at the -- 14 : Yeah. 15 : -- at the hospital. 16 : Yeah. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : That's where they ar= 19 declared dead. 20 : Yeah. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Right. Okay. 23 : And that's not, you know, 24 necessarily true. I mean, it's where you are 25 like, sometimes -- EFTA00128117

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : It's sort of a joke. 2 : -- yeah. 3 : To (Indiscernible *03:40:46). 4 : It's a joke. Because 5 sometimes, the bodies are still there, and -- 6 : Right. 7 and we know he is 8 deceased. But then, the doctor and the medical 9 examiner -- 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- declares -- 12 : At the hospital -- 13 : -- (Indiscernible 14 *03:40:57). 15 : -- (Indiscernible *03:40:57) 16 : Right. 17 : The guy's got a big 18 (Indiscernible *03:41:00), you know -- 19 : Uh-huh. 20 : -- whatever they call them, 21 knives in his chest. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : You know, you can tell he's 24 not coming back, but I mean, you know what I'm 25 saying, (Indiscernible *03:41:04). EFTA00128118

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 312 : Uh -huh. : But just, I just want to 3 be clear, because with that statement, without 4 me getting a little more clarification, people 5 are going to read, wait a second, the warden 6 said that he was still, he thought he was still 7 alive. Now, I want to make sure I'm clear. 8 Are you saying that there was a chance for them 9 to bring him back, or based upon the 10 conversation with someone - and my follow would 11 be that, who? - did you believe that he was 12 still alive? 13 : My assumption, from when I 14 was called, was they were working on him, and 15 he was - they were being taken to the hospital. 16 : Okay. 17 : That's -- 18 : That was -- 19 : -- that's the term. 20 : -- that -. Wait. You were 21 called at a certain time. 22 : Yeah. When the lieutenant 23 called. 24 : Okay. Now, the lieutenant 25 says -. EFTA00128119

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 313 1 : So, when you came back 2 and found out, did you ever find out that he 3 wasn't showing signs of life, when you came in 4 and talked to people? 5 : No. Because I - first of 6 all, when it happened, I wasn't going around 7 questioning people about -- 8 : Okay. 9 : -- okay, what's going on 10 with this, because then, I knew that it was a 11 criminal case. But not criminal, but there was 12 going to be an investigation into it. And so, 13 I didn't want to give the appearance of 14 anything, that I was interfering with any 15 investigation. But when I did call, they said 16 they were working on him, and that, you know, 17 he was being transported to the outside 18 hospital. 19 : And who was it that 20 provided you with that information? 21 : The lieutenant. Lieutenant 22 23 : So, you drew the inference 24 that that -- 25 : Uh-huh. EFTA00128120

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 314 1 -- meant he was still alive? 2 : Right. I assumed that, you 3 know, they were still working on him, and he 4 was still alive. 5 : And after that 6 conversation, though, and speaking with other 7 people, you never gathered that, oh, he was, 8 they were working on him, attempting to bring 9 him back, but he was not alive? 10 : I didn't -. 11 : From -. 12 : The assumption, my 13 assumption, was that he was deceased at the 14 hospital. 15 : Okay. 16 : Yeah. So. 17 : All right. Do you want 18 to follow up on that at all, anymore? 19 MR. : No. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : Okay. 22 MR. : That kind of covers it. 23 : Are we through now? 24 : No. 25 : No. EFTA00128121

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Oh, god. 2 : We only have, really, 3 very brief conversations left. All right. So, 4 this was an email sent from you, to 5 It just says, subject, "Names." 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : It says 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 and 10 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : Who were -? Why were 13 those people listed? 14 : Because he wanted to know 15 who was working up there that night. 16 : Okay. 17 : Who was the staff working 18 there that night. 19 : So, why did you write 20 versus, like, , or who else was 21 up there? Was Shack (Phonetic Sp. *03:43:25) 22 still there? 23 MR. : No. 24 : At least and 25 . Was left off for any reason? EFTA00128122

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 316 1 Because I think worked -- 2 : I think this -- 3 : -- until midnight, and 4 only worked until 10:00. 5 : No. For - and I don't - 6 correct me if I'm wrong - I don't know if he 7 wanted to know who was on the midnight shift. 8 And then, I included who was on Ten South. I'm 9 not sure. 10 : I think was 11 the OIC of the shift previous. And then, just 12 13 -: would have 14 : -- and were the ones 15 from -- 16 : -- been two up there. 17 : -- midnight afterwards. 18 : Yeah. 19 : And then -. 20 MR. : I think that Ten South was 21 22 : Yeah. So, I don't know, 23 remember it. But I know it had to do with the 24 question about who was working. 25 : Okay. EFTA00128123

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : So, I don't know the 2 specifics and why it listed those three. 3 : And you don't know if, 4 like, because these were, who we considered the 5 subjects. 6 : No. I mean, these two would 7 have been obvious because they were working up 8 there on the midnight shift. But I don't know 9 why got thrown in there. 10 : Okay. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : Mind just initial and 13 dating that? Okay. And this one is an email 14 from Captain to you, dated Sunday, 15 August 11, 2019. And it says, subject, "A 16 memorandum, Epstein." 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : And it says that this was 19 dated August 10th, 2019. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : It's from Captain 22 It says, subject is, "Security expectations 23 involving inmate Epstein, Jeffrey." 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : Are you familiar with EFTA00128124

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 318 1 this? Did you ever see this, that he sent? 2 : I did. 3 : Do you know what the 4 purpose of this was? 5 : Let me read it again. 6 "(Indiscernible *03:44:56), and while this 7 could be conducted, I did, I informed staff 8 (Indiscernible *03:44:59) be dealing with 9 inmate Epstein, and others were notified. 10 explained that lieutenants were to conduct 11 (Indiscernible *03:45:08), and at that point, 12 (Indiscernible *03:45:09). I explained I 13 could, and they would not (Indiscernible 14 *03:45:15)." Oh, no. I just was asking him 15 when the thing happened, what is the guidance 16 he provided? 17 : So, what did he provide 18 to, like, the SHU staff and the lieutenant? 19 Because -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- at least the last 22 little point on this first page -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- so, it says, "In 25 detailed conversations with the SHU lieutenant, EFTA00128125

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 319 1 he was informed of my expectations regarding 2 the supervision of inmate Epstein, 3 specifically, he was reminded on several 4 occasions that inmate Epstein was to be housed 5 with a cellmate." 6 : Right. 7 : So, is this all, like, 8 the expectations surrounding -- 9 : The expectations. 10 : -- Epstein? 11 : Right. Mm-hmm. 12 : And when he says, "Durin' 13 the week of July 31st, 2019, in order to 14 address management concerns with inmate 15 Epstein," do you know what he is talking about 16 there? With management concerns. 17 : The housing of them. And in 18 the Special Housing Unit. 19 : Okay. And do you know 20 if, according to this, it looks like he is 21 saying that he did perform an informal training 22 sessions with staff. Do you know if he, in 23 fact, did that, or is it just based upon 24 : Just based upon -- 25 : -- what he wrote here? EFTA00128126

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : -- on what he sent out. : Okay. So, there is no 320 3 other information, aside from what he's telling 4 you? 5 : Right. Yeah. He told me 6 that. 7 : So, this one is - I want 8 to get your take on this matter - so, this is 9 back to , who was relieved 10 at 5:30, but she stayed at the institution at 11 least until 9:30, and sent out that email, 12 detailing, you know, what day, and the 13 lieutenant's log, and the daily activity log. 14 So, Captain sent her an email on 15 8/12/2019, stating, "Lieutenant 16 reminding you to submit your supervisory 17 memorandum for the inmate Epstein incident that 18 occurred on 8/10/2019. 19 Please have it complete and ready for 20 submission on 8/13/2019." She responded with 21 no, addressing nothing, just saying, just 22 responded simply, "In your email, you state, 23 quote, `I am reminding you.' End quote. I 24 haven't spoken to you or anyone else regarding 25 the incident involving inmate Epstein or EFTA00128127

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 321 1 anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019. 2 So, how is it possible for you to be reminding 3 me? Second, I have been properly relieved, 4 prior to the incident involving inmate 5 Epstein." What is your take on that email? 6 : First of all, any major 7 incident that takes place in the institution, 8 we have to do what is called a report of 9 incident. 10 : Sure. 11 : He is well within the scope 12 of his employment, asking, okay, where is your, 13 where is And I don't know if he was asking 14 her the overall memorandum. Like, you are the 15 shift lieutenant. You know, when this incident 16 took place. So, technically, you should have 17 been doing the packet. So, he is probably 18 contacting her for that. 19 : Well, she was relieved at 20 5:30 a.m., but she was still there, and the 21 incident happened at 6:30. And again, she aws 22 there at least until 9:30. And she did respond 23 to the SHU afterwards, helping with the 24 feeding. Should have she written a memorandum? 25 : Yes. EFTA00128128

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yes? 2 : I mean, she said she 3 responded to the incident? 4 : She didn't respond to the 5 incident. She responded after the incident, to 6 help in the SHU with feeding and dealing with 7 the inmates. 8 : So, she -. Well -. 9 : So, somebody told her that the 10 fucking guy hung himself, should she have 11 Right? 12 : Again, from what I gather, I 13 am under the impression, when the lieutenant 14 relieved her, she was gone. Because, and, you 15 know, and I can't speculate on what was there. 16 So, if we -. 17 : She said she stuck 18 around, working on matters that she needed to 19 catch up on. 20 : Okay. So -- 21 : But it sounds like 22 manipulating those numbers on the counts and 23 stuff. 24 : Okay. 25 : Right? EFTA00128129

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : So, let me ask you this 2 question. I have, I have a medical emergency. 3 A suicide, right? That is an emergency 4 everyone in the institution has to respond to. 5 Why didn't you respond to it? 6 : So, you think that she 7 maybe came back after? 8 : It doesn't make sense to say 9 10 : Well, she never sent out 11 her required logs, though. 12 : Right. So, that, but -- 13 : So, you reviewed her 14 emails. And I would think that she would have 15 sent that out, if she had left, I would think 16 she would have sent that out before she left. 17 Right? As required. 18 : Right. So, did you leave 19 and come back? I mean, because if you are 20 saying that you were there, you would have been 21 one of the first responders up to the unit. 22 : Yeah, 23 : For the emergency. 24 : That's a really good 25 point. EFTA00128130

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : You know? 2 : In other words -- 3 : I wish we had -- 4 : -- they're saying it sounds 5 fishy. 6 : I wish we had thought 7 of that. 8 : I mean, so, and then, if you 9 10 : And if she didn't, why? 11 : -- and if you didn't 12 respond, why didn't you respond? 13 : If she Is it a claim 14 at all, I had been relieved, I wasn't 15 technically working? 16 : If you are in the building, 17 you have to respond. 18 : Is that right? 19 : It's an emergency. 20 : Okay. 21 : I mean, as a lieutenant -- 22 : Okay. 23 : I would want to respond, 24 and say -- 25 : And so, the fact that she EFTA00128131

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 325 1 states that she was there, and she was working 2 on her administrative responsibilities 3 : Right. 4 : -- so, is that a problem, 5 then, as the warden? What do you mean you are 6 working on the administrative? You should have 7 responded to that emergency. 8 : No. But - and I don't want 9 to speculate on when you are there - but I 10 just, there is just some questions -- 11 : Wait, and I think -- 12 : -- they just don't -- 13 : -- that is a yes or a no 14 : Right. 15 : -- you know, question. 16 : Yeah. I mean, it's a 17 problem. If you are saying I am working on it, 18 okay. Now, at what point did you say, okay, I 19 need to, because once they had said, hey, I 20 have a suicide or something going on, which is 21 probably over, you know, a real medical 22 emergency, and you hear the transmission on the 23 radio, you are going to go up there. So then, 24 you say, oh, I went up there later, to help 25 with the feeding. Either way, you were in the EFTA00128132

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 326 1 building. The captain is asking you, it 2 happened on your shift, you are responsible for 3 conducting the report of incident. 4 : So, that answer is yes, 5 she should have written a memorandum? 6 : She should have written one. 7 I don't understand why she didn't, you know? 8 : And is that at all - 9 reading how she responded - is that 10 insubordination at all, to you? 11 : Listen. I will put it this 12 way. I can't speak on other supervisors or how 13 they tolerate, but if you had given me a 14 memorandum like this, we would be having a 15 conversation. You know? 16 : Is that, at the very 17 least, inappropriate -- 18 : I think -- 19 : I think it's 20 inappropriate. I mean, that's the way -- 21 : I mean, I read it. I 22 thought it was inappropriate. 23 : -- yeah. 24 : I just didn't know how 25 : I would have gone to have a EFTA00128133

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 327 1 conversation, like, you know, first, are you 2 all right? And then, secondly, what is this? 3 But yeah. 4 : Fair enough. 5 : Okay, listen, one last 6 question. 7 : Sure. 8 : Does that give the implication 9 that she is covering up for somebody, or she 10 just didn't do her job? 11 : I don't know. 12 : We don't know. That's -. 13 Had you heard anything about her covering up 14 for someone? Because -. 15 : I haven't heard anything, 16 but, you know -- 17 : Did you hear about 18 inmates saying that she was making statements 19 that she was going to cover for other people? 20 : Again, I don't want to make 21 any statements -- 22 : No, no, I'm asking you 23 : -- that are not factual. 24 : (Indiscernible *03:51:56). 25 : -- did you ever hear - EFTA00128134

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 328 1 : No, I didn't hear anything. 2 : I would hate to -- 3 : You never heard it. 4 : Right. 5 : I would hate to give my own 6 client a hard time. 7 : Right. 8 : But, but it sounds to me like 9 she's got three hours where she knows this guy 10 is dead. 11 : Right. 12 : You know? And she don't say 13 much. I mean, you know, if I was him, I would 14 be drawing an inference, saying, what the fuck 15 is going on? Excuse my language, by the way. 16 I have a filthy mouth. 17 : No. I mean, I understand 18 what you are saying, but you know, I'm just, my 19 point of view is - and my concern - is 20 : Yup. 21 : -- if you were there -- 22 : Your concern is, you would 23 have asked, unlike myself, you would have asked 24 her a question first -- 25 : Right. EFTA00128135

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- rather than jumping into, 2 which is -- 3 : Because I was -- 4 : -- which is what I did. 5 : -- under the impression, 6 because when Lieutenant called me, he was 7 the operations lieutenant, and he had relieved 8 her. 9 : Right. 10 : She had gone home already. 11 : Well, he had certainly 12 relieved her, but -- 13 : Yeah. 14 : -- according to her, she 15 hadn't gone home. 16 : Yeah. 17 : Do you mind just 18 initialing and dating that? 19 : Yeah. 20 MR. : Maybe you asked this 21 question. And I just want to clarify. Being 22 that she started this shift 10:00 p.m. the 23 night before, right? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : Let's say this incident did 329 EFTA00128136

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 330 1 happen. We're not saying she did. We don't 2 know. If she went in and she altered the 3 lieutenant logs, for the previous shift, did 4 she do something wrong? 5 : Well, and again, we are 6 knowing, though, that she started at 10:00 p.m. 7 So, that is still her shift. 8 MR. : Yeah. But -- 9 : We've had this 10 conversation -- 11 MR. : -- no, no, but -- 12 : -- before. 13 MR. : -- let's just say, you know, 14 the fact that the inmate wasn't moved until 15 midnight, and then the clarification, and the 16 count, the count numbers being changed in 17 there. Now, so, the lieutenant log count 18 numbers are accurate, except the count, the 19 actual count slips, were completely off. So, 20 somewhere along the way, someone altered those 21 numbers to -- 22 : Well -- 23 MR. : -- correct it. 24 : -- the lieutenant is 25 required to take a count on each shift. So -- EFTA00128137

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : So, see, wait. : -- you got the -- 331 3 the lieutenant is supposed 4 to take in a count. Right? 5 : Right. Just to take one 6 count -- 7 : He's supposed to -- 8 on shift. 9 : An institutional count. 10 : Institutional count. 11 : Okay. 12 : Not a physical, in the 13 SHU count. 14 : Okay. So, now -- 15 : But now, if you 16 (Indiscernible *03:53:53). 17 : I got to shut up. 18 : Yeah. Go ahead. 19 : He's supposed to take a count. 20 : Right. 21 : Right? And he's supposed to 22 enter the count. 23 : Right. 24 : Right? Okay. And there was a 25 count entered, right? And there is no question EFTA00128138

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 332 1 that, at some point, the count was altered? 2 MR. : The count was wrong. 3 : The count was wrong. 4 : Okay. Okay. 5 : Well, no 6 : Yeah. (Indiscernible 7 *03:54:14) -- 8 : -- what he's saying is it 9 was altered. 10 : -- (Indiscernible *03:54:15). 11 MR. : I'm talking about the numbers 12 13 : So, if you recall 14 MR. on the paperwork. 15 : -- on August 9th, 2019, 16 the lieutenant's log says, at midnight, there 17 was 72 in the SHU. The count slip says 73. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : And the lieutenant's log 20 for the next day at midnight says there was 73. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : So, what Agent is 23 asking is, well, that obviously goes to show 24 that she went back and changed those numbers to 25 72, because -- EFTA00128139

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : But what is her motive -- 2 : -- that midnight -- 3 : -- to do that? 4 : -- she says she was just 5 trying to make things accurate. 6 : But what would be an ulterior 7 motive that would create the idea that she was 8 doing something wrong? 9 : It goes back to when you 10 asked -- 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : -- is there something to 13 do with a cover up? 14 : So, if - and granted, 15 mistakes are made in the log - but you also 16 annotate that in the log. Like, you will put, 17 okay, late entry. Because typically, if you 18 say the log is done already, when you go back 19 and make changes, you make changes for this 20 reason alone. An investigator comes in, looks 21 at it, and says, well, wait a minute, it looks 22 like you've been playing, you went back and 23 just changed the numbers. So, you can put in 24 there, and you say, okay, late entry, explain 25 what your change was, and what the mistake was. EFTA00128140

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : So, really, with this 2 : You know? 3 -- to show a malicious intent 4 in her part, there's got to be something that 5 influences her to protect one of the people 6 that were - no question - were fucking around. 7 Right? The two guys that were fucking around 8 ended up getting pinched. Right? So, if one 9 of them is her friend, then she's got a 10 malicious motive to go try and cover for that 11 guy. Like, did $8,000 (Indiscernible 12 *03:55:58) police officer, he says, well, I 13 thought he drew a gun on me. 14 : Right. 15 : And I shot him. 16 : Yeah. 17 : Oh, okay. Nobody else saw 18 that. 19 : Yeah. 20 : But you are not aware of 21 her involvement at all, you said, or 22 : As far as what? 23 : -- covering up for them, 24 or involvement in Epstein's death? 25 : No. She wouldn't have had EFTA00128141

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 335 1 that conversation with them. 2 : And you weren't - until 3 now, it sounds like - even aware that she was 4 at the institution after 5:30 a.m.? 5 : I was told she left. 6 : Okay. 7 : Yeah. 8 : And again, who told you 9 that? 10 : The operations lieutenant. 11 Because he called me and he says, hey, I 12 relieved -- 13 : So, 14 15 : Sorry. 16 : Yeah. 17 : Okay. And did you have - 18 before we move on to the next subject - do you 19 have any more on that? 20 MR. : No. 21 : So now, we are going to 22 talk about the cameras. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : Were the SHU cameras 25 recording on August 9th and 10th of 2019? EFTA00128142

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 336 1 : I didn't physically go check 2 to see if they were, were recording or not. 3 : Did you learn that they 4 were not recording? 5 : Yeah. We found out 6 afterwards, that they weren't recording. 7 : Wait. Wait. We had this 8 conversation. 9 : Right. 10 : The cameras don't work in a 11 lot of these institutions. Right? 12 : Yeah. Yeah. 13 : All right. And that's because 14 they didn't spend the fucking money to make 15 sure the cameras work. 16 : Well, it's -- 17 : And I got to stop saying 18 "fuck." 19 : -- that's the issue, too, 20 funding, and, you know, so, since that 21 incident, I guess there was some audits done by 22 the agency, and they realized that it was kind 23 of a system (Indiscernible *03:57:15). 24 : But you see, the issue is, 25 should you have checked why weren't the cameras EFTA00128143

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 working? 2 : Well, that's my question 3 is, do you know why they were not working? 4 : I don't know the specific 5 language that was used, and what was wrong with 6 it, because I guess, after I left, they kind of 7 made a determination on what was why -. What 8 was the reason. I know we were going through 9 the process of auditing and fixing some 10 cameras. But those specific SHU cameras, I 11 wasn't aware of the extent. 12 : Okay. Let's just really 13 quickly review -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- the SHU camera 16 documentation. Were you ever provided any 17 documents of a camera that actually was working 18 in the SHU? 19 : You mean, the day of the 20 Epstein thing? 21 : Right, right. At any 22 time. 23 : I don't recall. 24 : So, were you provided 25 with this? This is right outside of -- EFTA00128144

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 338 1 : This was a -- 2 : -- Ten South. 3 : -- that says camera angle 4 out of Ten South. 5 : Right. Were you ever 6 provided with that, as far as 7 : It looks -- 8 : I think from -- 9 : -- it looks familiar, but I 10 don't -- 11 : -- from 12 : -- he might have. 13 : Okay. But you don't 14 remember specifically? 15 : Yeah. I don't specific. 16 : Okay. And then, just 17 while we are here, I guess, what are these 18 doors right to the right of this picture? 19 : This door goes into Ten 20 South. 21 : Okay. 22 : And then, this one, I think 23 is a utility room door. I'm not sure. 24 : Okay. So, the door that 25 says "46" goes into Ten South? EFTA00128145

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 339 1 : That looks like the Ten 2 South door. Oh, wait, wait. Yeah. The phone 3 is -. Yeah. That is Ten South. It looks like 4 Ten South. 5 : And what are we looking 6 at down here? 7 : So, this is the, right here 8 is the officer's station area. 9 : And do you - based upon 10 that - do you know what tier that would be 11 right there? 12 : Oh, man. You got 13 (Indiscernible *03:59:02) stopped. Let me see. 14 Is that G and H tier, I think, if I remember. 15 : And what would be right 16 to the right of the officer's station? 17 : Oh. Wait. G. H. I. J. 18 A. I don't remember if that was I and J. That 19 20 : Would this be L tier up 21 here? 22 : Yeah. L and M tier. That's 23 what -. 24 : So, right up, right to 25 the right of the officer's station, looking at EFTA00128146

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 340 1 this picture -- 2 : Right. 3 : -- would be L. And ] 4 that where Epstein was housed? 5 : I believe he was on the L 6 tier. 7 : Okay. Do you mind just 8 initialing and dating that? 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : So, here is a map that we 11 were previously provided. Does this look like, 12 then -? So, this is where we were that this 13 camera angle is focusing down here on the 14 officer's station. This is L tier. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : On the second level. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : And this is where Epstein 19 would have been housed. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : Does that look right? 22 : That looks right. 23 : Okay. Is this L tier 24 here? 25 : That's L tier. EFTA00128147

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 341 1 : Does this look like what 2 would have been Epstein's door? I know you 3 can't really see because of the police 4 crossings -- 5 : Yeah. 6 : -- on it. 7 : I noticed it. The crime 8 scene tape. 9 : Okay. Do you have any 10 reason to believe that that wouldn't be 11 Epstein's door? 12 : What do you mean? 13 : As far as, I know we 14 can't see the number -- 15 : Yeah. I don't know the 16 number, but I'm taking your word for it, that 17 that is. 18 : Okay. Now, if you see, 19 this is L tier range. And at the very end, you 20 see this camera. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Should that camera have 23 been recording? 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. And is that a EFTA00128148

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 camera that I'm actually looking at right 2 there? 3 : That is a camera. 4 : Was that camera recording? 5 : Sir, do you know if the 6 camera was recording? 7 : I didn't see. After I left, 8 I guess they said there were camera issues, but 9 I don't know what, I wasn't provided 10 information on what specific cameras were 11 working or not. 12 : So, they didn't tell you 13 if they were working or not? 14 : Well, remember, I was 15 removed. 16 : I just didn't know if you 17 found out on the 10th or 11th. 18 : No. I was removed on the, 19 you know, they said there were some camera 20 issues, and then, what they were doing, they 21 had the FBI came in, and took hard drives, and 22 I guess they were working to see what was 23 working and what wasn't working? 24 MR. : Can you initial and date 25 that? EFTA00128149

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 343 1 : I'm not going to get into 2 this since he wasn't aware that they weren't 3 recording. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 : Boy, I'm impressed by your 6 thoroughness, I'll tell you that much. 7 : That's why they put me on 8 it. I'm -- 9 : Yeah. 10 : You're very thorough? 11 : -- yes. 12 : You know, if you, if you are a 13 good trial lawyer, you know, allegedly a good 14 trial lawyer, a lot of times, you are not 15 supposed to be thorough. You are supposed to 16 put an idea in the jury's head, right? Where 17 you can see they're invulnerable, stay on that 18 fucking idea, because if you are going to be 19 thorough, you have to bring out something that 20 you don't want to bring out. You know, so you 21 to speak to the things, but you know you got 22 them. 23 : Yeah. 24 : So, this is an email that 25 was received. Who's EFTA00128150

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 344 : He's the facilities manager. : Okay. So, is this what I 3 wanted to show you? Hold on. Now, did you 4 print out the one that I sent you this morning? 5 MR. : Is that -. That should be 6 the last thing on the -. 7 : Okay. I'm not going to 8 get into those. So, you weren't aware that the 9 cameras were not - or you are not aware if the 10 cameras were or were not recording -- 11 : We had camera -- 12 : -- in the SHU? 13 : -- no. We had camera issues 14 throughout the institution. 15 : Okay. 16 : So, I don't know which 17 specific one, because we had Mr. working 18 on a project, to get some money for it. 19 : Okay. 20 : But when it came to that 21 specific night, I didn't know if they were 22 working or not. 23 : Were you ever told that, 24 either on August 8th or August 9th, that the 25 cameras were not recording in the SHU? EFTA00128151

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 345 1 : I heard - yes - I was told 2 that there were some issues with the cameras -- 3 : On either the 8th or the 4 9th, prior to Epstein? 5 : -- no. I'm talking about 6 afterwards -- 7 : Yeah, yeah, no -- 8 : -- when it happened. 9 : I'm saying -. So 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- August 10th is the day 12 he is found. 13 : Right. 14 : On August 9th or August 15 8th, even, leading up to Epstein being found, 16 were you ever informed that cameras were not 17 recording? 18 : No. I wasn't told about 19 cameras. 20 : All right. So, based on 21 our investigation, we learned that MCC, SIS 22 Lieutenant Doctor -- 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : -- and that AW 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00128152

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 346 1 : -- became aware on August 2 8th, 2019, that at least some of the MCC 3 cameras were not recording. They contacted 4 comtech , and may have also 5 notified Captain . Did you ever 6 hear anything about that? 7 : I knew prior that there was 8 some cameras in the institution that needed to 9 be fixed, but not specifically the SHU, no. 10 : Okay. 11 : Yeah. 12 : And would have that been 13 based upon what they found? The AW and 14 SIS Lieutenant Doctor? 15 : No. Because we had had some 16 issues with cameras, and we were trying to seek 17 funding. So, and we were trying to see, okay, 18 what was working and what to get fixed. But 19 specifically, in SHU, no. 20 : All right. So, only 21 because, you said that you were trying to get 22 funded. Did you know that there were already 23 cameras at the institution, and that's what 24 they were able to replace when the FBI took the 25 cameras on the 10th, they were able to EFTA00128153

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 347 1 immediately replace them with the cameras that 2 were onsite? 3 : So, cameras all -. 4 Institutions always have, like, backup cameras 5 to fix what is there. But I was talking about 6 funding to replace the whole system. 7 : So, this was from fiscal 8 year 2018 -- 9 : Right. 10 : -- back in September. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : This is a memorandum for 13 you, from a Jeff Colton, acting facilities 14 manager. 15 : Right. 16 : And these are all the 17 different documents that go with it, regarding 18 a new camera system that was purchased. 19 : Right. 20 : It was, it looks like 21 there was $800,000. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : For this total. These 24 are all the documents that - here you go - this 25 is an approval of your September 11th, 2018 EFTA00128154

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 348 1 request. So, this is a memorandum for -- 2 : Right. 3 from, it 4 looks like a (Phonetic Sp. 5 *04:05:31). 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : The assistant director 8 for administration. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : It says, request to 11 exceed the spending limit of $50,000 on a work 12 request number 8158, replace camera system at 13 MCC New York. This work request is to replace 14 the current degraded camera system. The total 15 cost of this work is not to exceed $800,000." 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : Then, at the bottom, it 18 says, "If you have any questions, please call 19 me or have your staff contact," and how do you 20 say that name? Do you know? Ponchiano 21 (Phonetic Sp. *04:05:57)? 22 : Ponchiano. 23 : Rangle the Third 24 (Phonetic Sp. *04:06:00). Chief facility 25 manager branch." EFTA00128155

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Mm-hmm. : And it says, "At the 349 3 phone number." And then, here are the, you 4 know, the work orders for that. So, we have 5 spoken with SigNet, who was the camera provider 6 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- they said that on or 9 around October or November of 2018, they were 10 delivered. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : And then, talking with 13 the (Indiscernible 14 *04:06:22) -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- city manager, he said 17 that they started working on the infrastructure 18 of the camera project on or around March 2019. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : To get everything ready 21 for the new camera system that was onsite to be 22 installed, and said that -. 23 : They had to run wires. But 24 the old system was there. So, they had to run 25 wires. And they had to get a contract done. EFTA00128156

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 350 1 : Uh-huh. 2 : In order, because you needed 3 the comtechs, and I forget the wording that 4 they used, is to run the cables, to get the new 5 camera system in. So. 6 : And do you know how long 7 that typically takes to run the new wires and 8 all that? 9 : You would have to have the 10 staff (Indiscernible *04:06:58). We didn't 11 have the staffing. 12 : So, were there two people 13 TDY'd, though, in order to do that? 14 : They started TDY'ing people 15 in, to come in. 16 : Wait a minute. Can the staff 17 run the new wires, or you have to get an 18 electrician to run the wires? 19 : No. We have staff that are 20 qualified to do it, but then, some of them were 21 new and really didn't know how to do it. So -- 22 : Okay. 23 you know, it was 24 : So, according to Mr. 25 , it says, "The camera system was EFTA00128157

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 351 1 scheduled to start March 17th, 2019, and it 2 started on schedule. When I arrived TDY 3 February 2019, we only had one communication 4 technician -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- therefore, after 7 talking to the regional office, they started a 8 project to assist in funding and labor. So, we 9 were able to start the week of March 17th, 2019 10 for the camera system, and all other 11 infrastructure throughout the institution. 12 : St. Patrick's Day. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Below is the email sent 15 to all the institution from Bond 16 (Phonetic Sp. *04:07:49), the northeast 17 regional -- 18 : Right. 19 : -- facilities 20 administrator." But point being, it looks like 21 that project had started. Correct? 22 : It has started, but -- 23 : And I only say that 24 because I wanted to make sure you weren't 25 confused, because you were saying we were EFTA00128158

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 352 1 looking for funding. 2 : No. No. I misspoke. What 3 I'm saying is, I meant that the project 4 started, but the cameras hadn't been replaced. 5 Because they were still running wires for the, 6 to get the new system started. 7 : Okay. 8 : So, that unit still had the 9 old cameras. 10 : Right. But then, the 11 camera system was actually onsite, and they 12 were working on it? 13 : Well, yeah, but they weren't 14 - you didn't have enough staff to install, to, 15 you know, to rewire the whole place, because we 16 had, we wanted to put one, some on the ranges 17 that never had cameras. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : So, it was a tedious 20 project. 21 : I see. 22 : That required us to TIDY 23 staff from other institutions. And then, you 24 know -. 25 : Yeah. And were you kept EFTA00128159

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 353 1 apprise of where they were on that? On the 2 camera project. 3 : I would acquire about it, 4 like, where we were with it. But we were to 5 the point where we were bringing people in from 6 other institutions. To get it done. 7 : Okay. And do you know 8 when the camera system was scheduled to 9 actually be installed, or was it ever 10 scheduled? 11 : From - and if I remember 12 right - it was a matter of before you even 13 installed it, you had to run the wiring for it. 14 : Right. And that's what - 15 16 : (Indiscernible *04:09:13). 17 : I think was -- 18 : Right. 19 : -- what they were saying 20 in March of 2019. 21 : But that had -- 22 : That -. 23 been completed. Because 24 you had to TDY people there. And to get it 25 done. EFTA00128160

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 354 1 : And they never provided 2 you with an update as far as, like, when it 3 would actually be completed? 4 : It was still ongoing. 5 : Okay. 6 : Now -- 7 : (Indiscernible *04:09:27). 8 : -- but after I left, they 9 got people in there and completed it. 10 : Yeah. Yeah. Because I 11 think, I think that whole week, they were able 12 to complete the whole thing. Correct? 13 : I don't know when. 14 : You don't know? 15 : You know, because they had 16 people come in from different institutions. 17 : Now, is that, did they 18 ever, did the facilities manager, Captain 19 Whomever, ever explain to you how bad the 20 system was, and that it kept on shutting down, 21 and stopping, you know, cameras weren't 22 recording? 23 : I mean, we would have 24 incidents where, you know, something would 25 happen, and we tried to go back and find the EFTA00128161

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 355 1 tape, and we couldn't. So, and it would break 2 down, they would fix it. So, I mean, we did 3 have issues like that before. But it was the 4 age of the cameras. The -- 5 : Yeah. 6 : -- you know, we had 7 infrastructure issues. So. 8 : Because, yeah, the 9 comtech claims that, you know, like, he had 10 been, I mean, he's a very soft-spoken person, 11 but like, basically, screaming at the top of 12 his lungs as much as a very soft-spoken person 13 can, we need to fix these things, this is a 14 continual problem. 15 : So, here is what it is. We 16 don't have money readily available at an 17 institution to fix it. That money comes from 18 what we call buildings and funds. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : Which is funded by Congress. 21 So, you would have to talk to somebody in the 22 region about what the regional budget is, but 23 other institutions have issues going on. 24 : But being that -- 25 : Yeah. EFTA00128162

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- we have all these 2 cameras already onsite, and they had already 3 done the wiring for, you know, at least six 4 months prior to this -- 5 : Well, not all the wiring 6 they -. 7 was done. 8 : Yeah. He just, he didn't say 9 the wiring was done. 10 : Yeah. 11 : No, no, no. I'm just 12 saying, like, is that, I'm just trying to get a 13 feel for what was the plan here, and who was 14 responsible. 15 : Well, the plan was to get 16 the manpower to get it installed, but at the 17 time, we only had one person. Which was 18 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : So, one person can't 21 : Well, and the TDY staff. 22 : -- right, but even the TDY 23 staff came, they did help. You know, but then, 24 we also had other TDY staff that were coming in 25 for, because of our staffing issues. EFTA00128163

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 357 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : But -. 3 : Well, that's what 4 told us. That the TDY staff that was assigned 5 for him sometimes were getting put on the 6 custody posts. Do you know if that is accurate 7 or not? 8 : We might have had to do it a 9 time or two because we wanted to staff. 10 : Okay. 11 : Yeah. Yeah. 12 : And whose responsibility 13 were the cameras? To make sure that those 14 things were going to be operational and working 15 properly. 16 : Well, it's not a matter of 17 who was responsible. It's, like, working on 18 getting it installed. 19 : Okay. 20 : So, there was no deadline as 21 far as, you know, okay, when they had to be up. 22 You know, they just had to be installed. 23 : Okay. Because we were 24 told the cameras are the captain's baby. Is 25 that accurate? EFTA00128164

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No. No. It's not. 2 : Yeah. That -- 3 : It's not. 4 : -- that can't be true. 5 Captains don't know how to install it. 6 : Yeah. He doesn't -- 7 : (Indiscernible *04:12:11). 8 : No, no, no. Not to 9 install them. But to make sure that they are 10 operational, and get the right people to 11 actually get it done. 12 : Well, I -- 13 : That can't be right, either. 14 : -- well, I -- 15 : Because how the fuck would you 16 know what -- 17 right. I -- 18 : Well, because 19 : -- who the right people is. 20 : -- because what we were 21 told is that this was constantly happening, 22 whereas the cameras would stop working. And 23 then, nothing would be recorded. 24 : So -. 25 : The only way you find out EFTA00128165

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 359 1 that that is happening is to physically check 2 the DVR recording to see if there has a light 3 on it, or if you try to attempt to rewind, and 4 you are unable to. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : Because everything is 7 still live monitored feed, showing, so you 8 can't tell just by looking at the cameras. 9 It's only when you try to rewind them, that you 10 can say, oh my gosh, they are not recording. 11 : Right. But that, it wasn't 12 just as simple as that. I mean, there were 13 technical aspects of it that you had to check 14 to see if the cameras are working or not. 15 : Oh. Absolutely. 16 : Right. And the captain 17 basically looking to see if, okay, is the 18 screen up? And then, is it recording? But 19 there was some instances where the hard drives 20 weren't working, and you don't know that until 21 you get deep into it, into the system. So, I 22 wouldn't, you know -- 23 MR. : That's -- 24 : -- put that -. 25 MR. : -- that's what he just EFTA00128166

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 360 1 stated. 2 : Yeah. 3 MR. : Like, the fact that the only 4 way we would know if the hard drives were not 5 working is by going in 6 : Right. 7 MR. : -- to check the video. And 8 the video, there is no videos that they can 9 pull back. 10 : Right. 11 MR. : That's when they know the 12 hard drives stopped recording. 13 : Stopped recording. And 14 then, and look at them. But then, this is, you 15 know, there was other technical aspects of it 16 that, you know -- 17 : I can't imagine that 18 : -- yeah -- 19 : -- the captain would know. 20 sure as hell wouldn't. 21 right. 22 : So, I guess, knowing, 23 though, that this was, like, a reoccurring 24 problem, and the fact that, well, what we 25 didn't say is, it seems, it appears that the EFTA00128167

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 361 1 cameras actually stopped recording all the back 2 in July, and for half of the institution. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : Who should have made sure 5 that that camera system was replaced, and that 6 we had an operational camera system in there? 7 : Well, the centralized area, 8 and I don't know where the break down was. So, 9 if it's a centralized area, then it would be, 10 you know, within our facility department has 11 access to -- 12 : Well, the camera -- 13 : -- the comm -- 14 : -- you are asking where 15 the cameras are? 16 : -- no, the comm room. 17 : Yeah. The comm room. 18 Where these recorders were, were all in the SIS 19 secured area. 20 : Right. The actual cameras. 21 But where - if you go out - where -? And I 22 don't know the word, what's the word? Where 23 your centralized main area is for the whole 24 system. Yeah. That SIS areas has the cameras. 25 But that's fine. EFTA00128168

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 362 1 : Not the control room. 2 But it's back around where, it's a locked door 3 within the SIS locked room, where the actual 4 DVR recording and rack is, and everything. 5 : Right. 6 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's 7 8 : But -- 9 : -- is that what you are 10 talking about? 11 : -- that, but there is also 12 another, should be another area in the 13 institution, just for the communications. 14 Where everything comes into. So, I don't know 15 if it was back there or whatever, but our 16 facilities department, you know, their 17 communication guys check that, too, if there is 18 something intricate with it. 19 : Now, so, was either Mr. 20 , or , how do you pronounce his 21 name? 22 -: 23 : Was , or Captain 24 , were either of them expressing the need 25 to you at all, to, hey, we need to get these EFTA00128169

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 363 1 things fixed? 2 : I mean, the request had been 3 sent up. 4 : Yeah, yeah. No. 5 : So, yeah. 6 : And these were all 7 onsite. 8 : Right. So, yeah. IU mean, 9 we were going through -- 10 : And again -- 11 : -- the process of getting 12 the system up and running. 13 : But there was no set 14 schedule for when it was actually going to be 15 completed? 16 : No. Because we had to TDY 17 people. Sometimes we got them in, sometimes we 18 couldn't get them. And then, towards the end, 19 you know, boil down to money, with getting 20 people in to come fix them. 21 : And when people are TDY, 22 do you - when you say boil down to money - does 23 that come out of -- 24 : It comes out of our -- 25 : -- MCC's pocket? EFTA00128170

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 364 1 -- it comes out of our 2 budget. It comes out of budget. It comes out 3 of the region sometimes gives it. Plus, on top 4 of that, we were for TDY to come to our 5 correctional post, because we were so short. 6 : All right. So, what 7 would you say is the main reason, then, that 8 the cameras were onsite, but not installed? 9 Lack of manpower and funding? 10 : Well, manpower to get it in. 11 And then, it kind of boiled down to funding. 12 You know, to keep TDY people, to get it done. 13 : But do you have money, you can 14 really keep the TDY people. You don't have 15 money -- 16 : Yeah. 17 : -- you can't keep them. Yo:: 18 know? 19 : But again, there is no, 20 there was no actual set schedule of it will be 21 operational by the end of this calendar year -- 22 : No. 23 : -- or anything like that? 24 : No. 25 : That wasn't discussed? EFTA00128171

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 365 1 : That wasn't discussed. We 2 were trying, you know, doing the best we can 3 with the hand we were dealt. 4 : Okay. And Monday morning 5 quarterbacking that. Should it have been 6 discussed, or planned ahead, that these cameras 7 be installed? 8 : Would -? I don't understand 9 the question. 10 : Well, being that there 11 is, it seems that there was potentially around 12 two weeks of no cameras, and in the SHU, no 13 cameras. Aside from that one outside of Ten 14 South. 15 : Right. 16 : That were recording. 17 : But that wasn't known -- 18 : But it was, according to 19 the, you know, according to the facilities, as 20 well as the comtech, they said it was very well 21 known that this continually happened, and that 22 the comtech guy continually had to rebuild hard 23 drives because they kept on crapping out and 24 not recording. 25 : I mean, it is an antiquated EFTA00128172

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 366 1 system. 2 : Right, right, right. 3 : So, when you go down, yeah, 4 obviously, you go fix it. But nobody knew 5 until after the fact that you, you know, that 6 you had a system that was out for two weeks. 7 You know, I mean, you go to any other, any 8 institution, the cameras go down. 9 : Sure, sure. 10 : And when the system breaks, 11 somebody discovers it, and they fix it. But as 12 far as getting the new system up, we were 13 working on it. 14 : Okay. You want to follow 15 up with any of that? 16 MR. : You mentioned no one knew. 17 But the problem was, according to the comtech, 18 the system failed, the motherboard had to be 19 replaced on the 29th -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- they had a failure. 22 : Right. 23 MR. : And then, of course, no one 24 checked it until the 8th. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00128173

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 367 1 MR. : August 8th. When the AW and 2 the Lieutenant Doctor went in and they tried to 3 4 : Right. 5 : -- review video. Now, being 6 that they identified the system wasn't working 7 that day -- 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : -- how soon should it have 10 been fixed? 11 : What do you mean? When they 12 -? 13 MR. : On the 8th. 14 : Right. 15 MR. : This is two days before that 16 Epstein was found. If they identified on the 17 8th that, hey, listen, the camera is not 18 working. It's technically not recording. How 19 much of a priority is it to make sure that 20 those cameras are up and running immediately? 21 : It's a priority. So, what 22 happens is, and we have run into this before, 23 the parts. Sometimes the parts weren't readily 24 available. So, you have to go somewhere and 25 call for the parts, and depending on where it EFTA00128174

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 368 1 is at, it could be in California, or whatever. 2 So, you got to see how long it takes to get 3 that part. 4 : Yeah. 5 : Over to repair. 6 : And the key part for my 7 heating system -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- is in fucking Belarus. 10 : Right. 11 MR. : My understanding is they, it 12 was the hard drive that they needed. Right? 13 And the hard drive was sitting with the 14 computer services. 15 : Yeah. On the 8th. They 16 weren't able to get it. 17 : I don't know. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 : And on the 9th, they got 20 it. But then, he claims that he wasn't able to 21 gain access to the room because it was an SIS 22 shop, and he needed to go until later in the 23 day, and they were gone. 24 : I mean 25 : And on the 10th -. EFTA00128175

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 369 1 we have an emergency keys 2 to get into any area of the institution. So, 3 if he is saying he couldn't get in to the SIS 4 office -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- you got the captain, you 7 know, we got the techs that work in there. 8 We've got their glass is behind - what we call 9 in control center - behind a box. You know, we 10 can get that box open. 11 : So, he said that the only 12 way to be able to get into it is if he broke 13 the glass -- 14 : He can break the glass. 15 : mm-hmm. It's okay 16 that he would have done that? And then, should 17 have he? 18 : Yeah. If you couldn't 19 reach, you could just -. Well, he should have 20 gone to the captain or somebody and said, hey, 21 captain, I need to get into your SIS office. 22 : Do you think it's at all 23 acceptable, if knew on August 8th that these 24 cameras were down, and he didn't actually start 25 working on it, or at least, I guess he was EFTA00128176

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 370 1 working on getting the parts, but then got the 2 parts again on the, some time on the 9th, 3 claims he didn't work on it because he couldn't 4 get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was 5 going to work on it on the 10th, on that 6 Saturday. 7 : So, the question -- 8 : -- and what is your -? 9 : -- the question I would pose 10 to you is, did he notify anybody that he 11 couldn't get in there? Did he make any attempt 12 to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey, 13 I need to get into that office to get a part to 14 do it, because if he had told the captain that, 15 the captain would have got that office open for 16 him. 17 : Yeah. I agree with you. 18 It's a he says that the MCC was a different 19 So, at any other BOP institution, in the 20 country, that would have happened with, his 21 experience taught him that, at the MCC, 22 basically it could wait until tomorrow. 23 : They wait until tomorrow. 24 : So, that's his opinion. But 25 again, I'm going to pose a question. Who did EFTA00128177

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 371 1 he bring up the issue to? Because my thing is, 2 if you know it's an emergency, and it's a 3 situation to say this is the MCC, is a cop-out. 4 : And is it, would that be 5 classified as an emergency? 6 : If the cameras are down, 7 yeah. 8 : That is an emergency. So 9 10 : Let's get them back. 11 : -- he should have 12 absolutely gotten into that room -- 13 : He should have gotten -- 14 one way or another? 15 in there, and he knows he 16 could have gotten into the room, because you 17 can, we can break - if he said that stuff was 18 sitting in there, whatever room he said it in 19 there, guess what? You can break glass. You 20 can break glass after hours, if you need to, 21 and it's an emergency to get in, into an area. 22 : So, his claim is that, he 23 has rebuilt these things so many times. And 24 every knew that these cameras needed to be 25 reinstalled, and he had been saying that they EFTA00128178

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 372 1 needed to be reinstalled. And now he's being 2 looked at as the fall guy. 3 : You know, it sounds like he 4 could, you know -. 5 : I don't -. This is not an 6 issue of being the fall guy. 7 : Right. 8 : So, let's take every issue 9 we just talked about. We talked about the 10 camera project that we were working on. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : We were getting the people 13 in there to working. So now, let's talk about 14 the specific issue that you were talking about. 15 He did not notify anybody to get into that 16 room, to get to that part. That part was to 17 fix the current system. It had nothing to do 18 with the new system coming in. This is, he is 19 saying that this was a part that we needed to 20 fix, get put in, to deal with the current 21 system . 22 : Now, what about the fact 23 that Lieutenant Doctor is saying both she and 24 the AW knew that the cameras were down on 25 August 8th. They told to fix them. And EFTA00128179

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 373 1 they also notified Lieutenant Doctor, so that 2 she not only notified the captain, but wrote a 3 memo and provided it to him about the cameras 4 being down on the 8th. 5 : Right. 6 : So, at that point, what 7 are the responsibility of the captain and the 8 AW? 9 : So, what the captain does is 10 he notifies facilities where works for, 11 and says, hey, the cameras are broken, you need 12 to fix them. 13 : So, should the captain 14 have, on the 9th, ensured that those things 15 were fixed? 16 : Well, I don't know what 17 conversation he had with facilities to say we 18 are getting, you know, was it being fixed or 19 not. 20 : Well, do you know 21 (Indiscernible *04:23:25). If he knows to tell 22 somebody on the 9th, is it possible to fix it 23 on the 9th? 24 : Well, the 9th is a 25 Friday. So, the 8th is when we are told that EFTA00128180

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 he was told, informed, learned. 2 : Right. 3 : So, we have all Friday on 4 the 9th to make sure it's done. 5 : Right. 6 : On the 10th, 7 unfortunately, is when -- 8 : But -- 9 : -- we know the severity 10 of the issue. 11 : -- but that's my point. You 12 knew that, okay, you were made aware that the 13 cameras needed to be fixed. Okay. So, your 14 answers, what you are saying is, I couldn't get 15 into a certain area, so -- 16 : Well, that's what 17 is saying. Yeah. 18 : -- but that, okay, but -- 19 : But my question is, 20 should the AW or the captain have followed up 21 with that, to make sure that it was actually 22 being done. 23 : And to them, I don't, you 24 know, I don't want to make the assumption 25 because I don't know. There could have been EFTA00128181

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 375 1 some follow up. I don't want to speak on it, 2 but you know, if he had told him something on 3 the 8th, you know, I don't know the 4 conversations that were taking place between 5 them. Like, where is that, and what is he 6 saying? Right now, I'm responding to what he 7 is saying, and it makes no sense. 8 : Yeah. No. I would just 9 think that, you know, being a captain or an AW 10 would be -- 11 : Right. 12 : -- whoa. The cameras are 13 down in the institution? 14 : Right. 15 : Well, let's make sure 16 that those things are back up -- 17 : So, and -- 18 : -- so they would at least 19 check back in on the 9th, and say -- 20 : -- and then -- 21 : -- where are we at on 22 this thing? 23 : -- but then, I don't know, 24 you know, what that conversation was. I don't 25 know if, on the 9th, even came to work. EFTA00128182

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 376 1 : Right. 2 : I don't know. He could have 3 said -- 4 : Well, we do -- 5 : -- oh, well, I'm not going 6 7 : -- we know. But yeah. 8 : -- huh? 9 : And we know. 10 : Right. 11 : Yeah. 12 : So, I don't know. I don't 13 want to speculate on that part. 14 : Yeah, yeah, no. That's 15 what we are trying to tell you. Is, like 16 : Right. 17 : -- we know he was there. 18 : Right. 19 : On the 8th, he couldn't 20 get the parts. On the 9th, he got the parts. 21 But then, he said, he tried to get into the SIS 22 office. He was told by the - it wasn't an SIS 23 tech, because there were only two people there. 24 It was somebody that -- 25 MR. : Monitored. EFTA00128183

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- monitored the 2 telephones. I think he's now retired. Tay? 3 : Tay. Yeah. 4 : Was there. And he said, 5 I'm getting ready to leave, and he can't come 6 in here without me. And then, he said, I 7 didn't have access to the room after that. So, 8 my plan was to come in on the 10th, the 9 Saturday, because I was coming in anyway. And 10 that's what I was going to work on. 11 : He's the com shop. He can 12 go anywhere, where there are computers. 13 : So, that is not an 14 acceptable answer that he provided? 15 : I don't understand that 16 answer. 17 : Okay. 18 : It's because that room is 19 not in where the SIS shop is. That's the phone 20 monitor room. That's the camera room. 21 MR. : And the key for the camera 22 room is how, I think it's only the SIS 23 lieutenant, and the SIA that has the keys for 24 it. 25 : That's what the SIS EFTA00128184

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 378 1 office said -- 2 : So, the -- 3 : -- they said that -. 4 : -- the phone monitor is, 5 he's in the SIS, but he draws keys to get into 6 that room. So, that room is all -. And you 7 can draw keys to get into that room. 8 : Yeah. 9 MR. : When you saw draw keys, what 10 do you mean? 11 : Well, you get them from 12 control center. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 : Yeah. 15 : You know? 16 : Well, we were told by 17 Lieutenant Doctor, the only way he could have 18 gotten them is to break the glass, which he 19 could have done. But -. 20 : You could have broken the 21 glass. And that time of time it was 8:00. The 22 captain is there. The security officer who 23 controls all the keys in the institution is 24 there. 25 : Right. EFTA00128185

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : You can go to them and say, 2 hey, I need -- 3 : The key. 4 : Now -- 5 -- I need the key. 6 : -- now, did either the 7 captain or the AW inform you of this issue? 8 : No. I don't -- 9 : So, you didn't know -- 10 I don't 11 : -- anything about this? 12 recall anything about 13 that issue. 14 : Should have they? 15 : So, if -- 16 : If it was a Thursday, 17 they found out, and it was all -. You weren't 18 there for that. 19 : I weren't there on Friday. 20 : Okay. 21 : I wasn't there on Friday. 22 : You weren't even -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- there on Friday. 25 : So, you know -. 379 EFTA00128186

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 380 1 : And who - I'm sorry - can 2 you remind me, who was acting in your stead on 3 Friday? 4 : I believe it was 5 , I think. 6 : Okay. 7 : So. 8 MR. : Now -- 9 : Okay. 10 : Yeah. 11 : So, you weren't even 12 there. 13 : Yeah. 14 MR. : Our understanding is, I think 15 Captain was in the institution, too, 16 about 8:00 p.m. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : On the 9th. 19 MR. : On the 9th. 20 : Right. 21 MR. : So -- 22 : On Friday. 23 MR. -- could have been to 24 any time during that period? 25 : He could have seen him. I EFTA00128187

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 381 1 mean, just, you can't -. If it's an emergency 2 to get something for, I don't understand. That 3 is not -. 4 : No. That's great to 5 know. 6 : Yeah. 7 : About this. So, you say 8 that's not acceptable. 9 : No. You can, you can get in 10 there. So, I don't know -. 11 : Well, one of the things is, is 12 in prison, you need a camera. Yeah. 13 : Right. Especially in the 14 SHU. 15 : Right. Especially in the SHU. 16 : Now, who was responsible 17 to have the new camera system installed? 18 : What do you mean as far as 19 responsible? 20 : Like, who had overall 21 oversight on that? 22 : The facilities manager. 23 : Mr. 24 : Mr. . Yeah. So, he - 25 EFTA00128188

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 382 1 : All right. 2 -- gets the people in there, 3 but we're allocating things. But again, I want 4 to say, that was, you know, with manpower. 5 : Okay. Now, you've pretty 6 much answered this, and you can say it's the 7 same answer, but I just want to read you the 8 question. What are your thoughts on the fact 9 that the new camera system was there since 10 October 2018, but it wasn't installed after the 11 Epstein incident that occurred on August 10th, 12 2019? 13 : It's the manpower. 14 : Manpower. 15 : Yeah. You know, getting 16 people, qualified people in there to do it. I 17 mean, one person couldn't do that. It was, and 18 we were putting in new cameras in new areas. 19 So, he needed more people. One person couldn't 20 do it. 21 : Okay. Do you mind just 22 initialing? And don't have to go through this, 23 just the top is fine. Anything more on the 24 camera issue? 25 : Oh, Christ. You got more EFTA00128189

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 383 1 issues? 2 : No. I think the -. We 3 have one more issue, and then just a couple of 4 questions based upon the BOP's findings. It 5 does say that there's leaks information. Where 6 are those emails? 7 MR. : It was in -. Did we mix that 8 up? 9 : Here it is. So, here is 10 two emails that were sent both from 11 One to you, and one to (Phonetic 12 Sp. *04:29:13). 13 : Yeah. He was the acting 14 director at the time. 15 : Director of the BOP? 16 : Yeah. 17 : Okay. So, the first one 18 was on August 10th, 2019, at 6:14 p.m. to you. 19 And the subject is, "Urgent request. Potential 20 leak in hospital regarding Epstein's death." 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : It looks like -- 23 : You mean -- 24 : -- where is the -- 25 : -- media leak? EFTA00128190

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 384 1 : -- yeah. It says, 2 "Please ensure this information is given to the 3 OIG FBI. Thanks." 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : And then, this next one, 6 like you said, is from Ormand to the director. 7 Subject, "Prison guards skip mandatory checks 8 before Epstein's death." This, the body says, 9 "Couldn't see the entire article on my phone, 10 but I wouldn't be surprised there are staff 11 that are paid contacts for local media outlets. 12 This has also been discussed at the department 13 level, all the way to the White House. And who 14 knows who may have overheard those 15 discussions." 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : Do you know anything 18 about leaks in the media from the MCC? 19 : So, what happened was, when 20 (Phonetic Sp. *04:30:17) came to see me, 21 the issue we had was - and I told him about it 22 - was there was a article in the Post that took 23 a picture of our staff, and our staff rode with 24 Epstein on it. So, I told about it, and 25 I guess they said one of the paramedics had EFTA00128191

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 385 1 leaked the information. 2 : Like, took a picture of 3 them, like -- 4 : Took a picture -- 5 : -- posing with him? 6 : -- took a picture of them 7 coming in the room, when they got to the 8 emergency room. Took a picture of Epstein 9 being rolled in. And our - what do you call 10 it? - and our staff. So, I talked to 11 about that, and then, I had also told him that, 12 you know, there might be some staff, you know, 13 because, and I didn't know where it was coming 14 from, because the information was just coming 15 out, you know, so quickly, and it was, like, 16 where is this, you know, coming from? So, I 17 called and made him aware, you know, told him 18 about it when he came on Sunday. But the main 19 one was because of the picture in the Post. 20 : Now, who is it that you 21 suspect would have been leaking information to 22 him? 23 : I couldn't, I couldn't even 24 tell. But I just was, you know, with this 25 whole thing. You know, stuff would leak, had EFTA00128192

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 been leaked out to the media, and you are, 2 like, where is this coming from? 3 : Do you have any 4 suspicions, though? 5 : I can't speculate. I mean - 6 7 : That's my boy. I mean, I 8 don't know nothing. 9 : (Indiscernible *04:31:48). 10 : You're talking like an 11 attorney. 12 : No, I mean -- 13 : But like that, I don't know 14 nothing, but what I do know, I don't know. 15 : I mean, I can't speculate. 16 I mean, the half of it was towards me. I mean, 17 so -. 18 : Did you leak the 19 information, you mean? 20 : No. I said it was towards 21 me. 22 : Oh, you mean the 23 information -- 24 : Like, the negative press -- 25 : -- and the negative to EFTA00128193

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 387 1 you? 2 : -- yeah. It reverted back 3 to me. 4 : Uh-huh. 5 : So, I mean, that's, you 6 know, and it was just, it was fast and furious. 7 : So, like, negative things 8 to people, you believe someone in the BOP was 9 leaking negative information about you? 10 : I don't -. I mean, I, you 11 know -- 12 : Can you give me, like, an 13 example of what was leaked about you? 14 : Well, I mean, you know, 15 stuff that happened, you know -- 16 : Listen, the -- 17 and I'm not saying 18 : -- (Indiscernible *04:32:26) 19 investigation was going on. 20 : -- specifically -- 21 : I mean, you know -- 22 : -- specifically -- 23 : -- whose fault is it? 24 right. Towards me. But 25 it was just automatically the blame was, you EFTA00128194

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 388 1 know, put on me. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : And then, you know, the 4 other part of it was, I don't know if it came 5 from the department. I don't know if it came 6 from the institution. 7 : Okay. 8 : Because all that information 9 was going, you know -- 10 : But did anybody -- 11 up on different levels. 12 : -- did anyone tell you 13 that they believed that a certain person was 14 leaking information? 15 : No. I didn't hear if it was 16 a certain person. I didn't, you know? 17 : Okay. And did you leak 18 any information to the media? 19 : Absolutely not. 20 : Okay. Do you mind just 21 initialing and dating that? Do you believe, 22 though, somebody in the BOP was leaking 23 information? 24 : And I'm not -- 25 : And I don't mean that EFTA00128195

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 389 1 personally. I just mean 2 : -- no. But -- 3 : -- you know, you could 4 always get -- 5 : - I don't -- 6 : -- the second one under 7 there. 8 : -- it could have been up to 9 the department, because the information was 10 going up to them. I mean -- 11 : But I just mean, like, 12 based upon what information was being leaked, 13 do you believe that someone in the BOP - not 14 necessarily the MCC, I just mean BOP - was 15 leaking the information? 16 : I will put it this way. The 17 Department of Justice might -- 18 : Yeah. 19 because all the 20 information -- 21 : Because it could be -- 22 was -. Yeah. 23 : OIG. FBI. 24 MR. : Initial. 25 : Anybody. EFTA00128196

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 390 1 : It could have been anybody. 2 So, I don't want to -- 3 : Gotcha. 4 : -- kind of put it 5 : Sure. 6 : -- on one person. 7 : All right. The last 8 actual topic, before we ask a couple about the, 9 a couple about the findings. Epstein's will. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : Do you know anything 12 about Epstein changing his will just prior to 13 his death? 14 : Mo. 15 : Had you ever heard that? 16 : After the fact. 17 : Right. And when you say 18 after the fact, how did you learn about it 19 after the fact? 20 : I don't know. Reading it. 21 Or hearing it on the news. 22 : Did you ever hear about 23 it in an official capacity? 24 : No. 25 : All right. Do you know EFTA00128197

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 391 1 if it's true? 2 : Don't know. 3 : Okay. 4 : He left this all to his 5 brother. Right? 6 : I -- 7 : Is that true? 8 : I can't comment on 9 that kind of stuff. But what actions should 10 have been taken, or you don't know if it was. 11 If it was learned that Epstein's will had been 12 changed just prior to his death, do you believe 13 any specific actions should have been taken? 14 : I don't know anything. 15 mean, I can't comment on that. 16 : Okay. So, that's the 17 last of the topics. Now, we have - 18 (Indiscernible *04:34:38) refer to it - I don't 19 think we have to refer to anything other than 20 the - where is that? 21 MR. : The after action? 22 : Yeah. Do you have it? 23 And I don't know what we actually need to cite 24 (Indiscernible *04:34:53) initial them. This 25 is the after action report. Is that -? That EFTA00128198

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 392 1 the BOP created in response. So, just a few 2 quick questions on it. It says, "On August 3 1st, 2019, at 8:30 a.m., psychology documented 4 they were notified by correctional systems of a 5 form received from the United States Marshal 6 Service, the previous day, stating inmate 7 Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies." 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : Do you know anything 10 about that, and what transpired? 11 : Wait. Read that again. 12 : So, "On August." So, 13 just to refresh your memory of a time, 14 timeline. On July 30th, he comes off of 15 psychological -- 16 : Psychological observation. 17 : -- observation. 18 : Right. 19 : And goes to the SHU. 20 "Two days later" - so, there's July 31st and 21 August 1st - "8:30 a.m., psychology documented 22 they were notified by correctional systems of a 23 form received from the United States Marshal 24 Service, the previous day." So, I guess on 25 July 30th. EFTA00128199

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Mrn-hmm. : The 31st, I mean. 3 "Stating inmate Epstein had reported suicidal 4 tendencies." This was the BOP's finding. Do 5 you know anything about that? 6 : I don't know anything about 7 that. And that's before, when he first came in 8 the system, or -? 9 : No. That was after he 10 came off of psychological observation. So, 11 after his actual first attempt at suicide. 12 : Right. 13 : Or potential harm from 14 Tartaglione. 15 : No. I didn't. 16 : You don't know anything 17 about that? 18 : Nuh-uh. 19 : Okay. And do you know 20 anything about the suicidal tendencies that he 21 was showing? 22 : No. 23 : No. All right. And 24 then, on the same date, August 1st, 2019, 25 again, this is after the Tartaglione incident. EFTA00128200

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Mm-hmm. : And after coming off of 3 psychological observation. "1:00 p.m. 4 Psychology conducts a suicide risk assessment 5 noting watch is not indicated, with a 6 recommendation for follow up in one week. The 7 delay in conducting this assessment is not 8 justified in the report." Did you learn 9 anything about that? 10 : No. I don't. 11 : Yeah, yeah. 12 : I -- 13 : And again -- 14 : -- it's psychological. 15 : -- this is just some of 16 the -- 17 : Yeah. 18 : -- the negative findings. 19 : Okay. 20 : We just want to know your 21 take on it. I don't expect you to know any, 22 all of this, or anything. 23 : Right. 24 : It's just asking because 25 there's some negative findings. Okay. The EFTA00128201

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 395 1 next one. It says, "Significant -- 2 : Don't bring this guy in on 3 another case. All right? If the next time 4 this comes up, and he says, I'm going to bring 5 this guy, don't fucking do it. 6 : It says, "Significant 7 discrepancies exist within Sentry, regarding 8 admission/release status, ARS." 9 : Right. 10 : Sentry does not reflect 11 inmate Epstein being escorted from the 12 institution by the U.S. Marshal Service on July 13 31st, 2019. Although a signed prisoner remand 14 form is on file, documenting -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : having received him 17 from the U.S. Marshal Service. Additional 18 review revealed inmate Epstein departed the 19 institution for a total of four court 20 appearances, and only one of these occasions 21 was an ARS change made within Sentry. It 22 appears there is a culture of foregoing this 23 vital function, due to the likelihood of the 24 inmate returning from court. This lapse in 25 procedure is a severe inmate accountability EFTA00128202

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 deficiency." 2 : Well, that statement is 3 incorrect. I know the regional office looked 4 into it and said that a pre-trial institution 5 can outcount an inmate to go into court. So, 6 he doesn't have to be keyed out on the ARS. 7 : Okay. 8 : So, the way they were doing 9 it, they looked at it after the fact, and said 10 there was nothing wrong with that. 11 : So, they did re-review 12 this matter, and -- 13 : Yes. 14 : -- said that there was -- 15 : They were fine 16 : -- they were doing it 17 with it. 18 : Okay. 19 : Yeah. Because they kept 20 thinking, when they were looking out, same 21 thing like you said, he was going out to court, 22 but they can outcount him in that area. 23 : All right. And what are 24 they talking about, like, pre-removing him or 25 something like that, when he goes to court? EFTA00128203

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 397 1 : No. Going to court. 2 : Yeah, yeah. 3 : And if anyone is going to 4 court, because you have so much court movement 5 that you can outcount them. And then, when the Marshals say, hey, he's not going out, then you 7 release him out of -- 8 MR. : So, this is -- 9 : Okay. 10 MR. : -- this means, on the El, he 11 would be listed on the outcount? 12 : As court. 13 MR. : As court. 14 : Yeah. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 : And that's what they were 17 actually doing? 18 : That's what they were doing. 19 : Okay. 20 : They had him on the El. 21 : So -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- so, this is no longer 24 25 : That's not -- EFTA00128204

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 398 1 : -- an issue. 2 : -- an issue. 3 : All right. The next one, 4 it says, "No notations concerning a requirement 5 for a cellmate were entered into the SHU 6 program, and subsequently available for SHU 7 officers to reference." Who would have been 8 responsible for noting that in the SHU program? 9 : So -. 10 : First of all, what is the 11 SHU program? 12 : The SHU program is -- 13 : Is that the 292? 14 with the 292s. So, 15 don't know, from what I understand, and was 16 told after the fact, that they couldn't find 17 the information on Epstein in the SHU program. 18 So, I don't know how you came to that 19 conclusion. 20 : By the way, let the record 21 indicate that he is not sweating under his 22 armpits. A good sign. 23 : We didn't. BOP came to 24 these conclusions. 25 : Right. So, I don't know EFTA00128205

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 399 1 where that conclusion came from because from 2 what I gather, they couldn't get - they 3 couldn't find the -. Because usually -- 4 : Well, they found the 5 292s, but they were just very limited. 6 : Right. The 292s usually had 7 to have everything indicated on it. So 8 : And on that note, we were 9 told the 292, his file, was extremely small, 10 and it should have been larger. Had you heard 11 anything about people removing documents from 12 files? 13 : From what I understand, and 14 was told, that there was no file. They 15 couldn't -. They had every other inmates file, 16 but not his. 17 : They couldn't even find 18 it. You didn't think they could find his file 19 at all? 20 : No. That's what was told to 21 me. 22 : And who told you that? 23 : I think I heard that after 24 the fact. I don't know if the regional 25 director told me after they came in and did the EFTA00128206

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 400 1 check, that they couldn't find it. So, I don't 2 know. 3 : That's after they found out 4 the Hilary Clinton -- 5 : Yeah. 6 : -- came down and had them 7 (Indiscernible *04:40:44) a certain 8 (Indiscernible *04:40:45). 9 : Right. 10 : But back to the original 11 question, whether it was there or not. 12 : Right. 13 : If it, the cellmate 14 requirement was not entered in the SHU program, 15 who should have made sure that it was? 16 : On the, in the 292? And I 17 don't know who was doing it. It should have 18 been the lieutenant, to ensuring that it's all 19 in there. 20 : So, the SHU lieutenant? 21 : When they - yeah - when they 22 deny it, or the OIC. So, if the captain 23 conveyed the information to him, that should 24 have been put on the 292. 25 : So, either EFTA00128207