LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 SHU count slips, eyes on count shows 77. At 2 8:38 a.m., inmate Reyes is pre-removed from ZA 3 for count, and taken off the lieutenant log. 4 The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76. 5 Reyes was removed from the institution and does 6 not - and should not - appear on any counts at 7 this time. 8 At 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed 9 on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the 10 accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant 11 log. The 4:00 p.m. El shows a total of 76 12 inmates assigned to ZA." With one in attorney 13 conference, which was Epstein. "This indicates 14 that Fernandez was not keyed out of the SHU, 15 and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 16 shows 75. Inaccurate. 17 It should have reflected 74 because, 18 although there were 75 inmates assigned to the 19 SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There 20 were no inmates assigned to RA on the El 21 institutional count, and there was no count 22 slip for RA, eyes on count." This is where the 23 problem begins. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : "At 6:34 p.m., inmate EFTA00128008

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 Hemingway is moved to ZA, and brings it down to 2 74. 6:47 p.m., inmate (Phonetic Sp. 3 *02:26:10) is moved from ZA to ES, bringing it 4 down to 73. At 8:21 p.m., Felix (Phonetic Sp. 5 *02:26:15) and William is moved to ZA, to 6 suicide watch, bringing the accurate count down 7 to 71. At 8:28 p.m., inmate Garcia Pina 8 (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:23) is moved from K into 9 ZA, bringing the accurate count up to 72. 10 The 10:00 p.m. El shows a total of 73 11 inmates assigned to the ZA, but zero inmates 12 assigned to RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 13 shows 73." Oh, this is another one. I don't 14 think we brought this. "One of the counts 15 actually shows 73 plus one." Do we have that 16 in there? 17 MR. : The 10:00 p.m. 18 : Okay. 19 : I admire your guys' 20 (Indiscernible *02:26:48). 21 : Yeah. You would also 22 This is all probably -- 23 MR. : 73 (Indiscernible *02:26:52). 24 • -- all Chinese to you. 25 : That's how our count slips - EFTA00128009

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 2 : -- now, I did foreign 3 language -- 4 : I don't understand -- 5 : -- should be done. 6 : -- the fuck are you talking 7 about. 8 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 9 : Huh. 10 : This is 11 : All these initials, and this, 12 and that. 13 : -- but the count -- 14 : So, which is interesting 15 is all of these are, as you notice, crossed 16 off. 17 right. 18 : These two are not crossed 19 off. This one says 9S + 1. This one says 73 + 20 1. The question had been, when did this 21 happen? 22 : Yeah. 23 : When did they put these 24 plus ones, or why weren't they crossed out? 25 : But you can't do a -. This EFTA00128010

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 is an inaccurate count slip. Because you are 2 supposed to have the accurate count. You can't 3 do -. If this is 73 + 1, then you should have 4 74 on there. 5 : Or, in this case, it 6 should be 73 minus one because the accurate 7 count was actually 72. 8 : No, but you wouldn't write 9 minus one on there. You would write the actual 10 count on there. 11 : Right. 12 : So -- 13 : Okay. 14 : -- either it was 72 or 74. 15 : Right. 16 : But there is no -- 17 : All right. Guys, I'm going to 18 19 : -- such thing as -- 20 : -- splash water on my face 21 again. 22 : -- okay. There is no such 23 thing -- 24 : You guys are getting ready to 25 kill me. EFTA00128011

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 : -- there is no such thing as 2 plus one on the -- 3 : Right. 4 on that. 5 : You're not allowed to 6 ghost count. Correct? 7 : No. No. There should have 8 been an outcount done. So, and this should 9 have been caught, whoever the shift lieutenant 10 was, because they have to, you know, on each 11 shift, conduct a count, and review the count 12 slips. 13 : Does this tell you 14 anything, though, that these were crossed off, 15 and these weren't? 16 : Yeah. Unless, I don't know 17 why -- 18 : Do you think that they 19 were replaced at a later date, or -? 20 : I mean, it gives the 21 appearance. Because at first, I would want to 22 know, why you cross out. Why these -- 23 : They cross out because, 24 as things come in -- 25 : No. EFTA00128012

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 : -- you check it off. 2 : So, that's what I want to 3 know. Like, whose habit is this? Like, okay, 4 I'm looking at -. 5 MR. : So, basically, I think it's 6 standard practice, as a control officer? 7 : No. I mean, I've worked 8 control, and what I would do is, I would do the 9 check off, if I'm doing this. I've never -. 10 And that's people's style. 11 : Okay. 12 : That might be their style. 13 So, I just want to know -. 14 : This one is 15 (Phonetic Sp. *02:28:46), I believe. 16 : Huh? 17 MR. _: 18 : So then -- 19 : This one. 20 : -- then that's how does 21 it. So, my question is then, why isn't this 22 done -- 23 : Right. 24 : -- like that. I mean, 25 this, if does it like that, then that's EFTA00128013

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 207 1 his consistent way of checking it out. But if 2 this is all on that shift -. 3 : But point being, you will 4 agree, this indicates that, from 4:00 p.m. on, 5 the counts were not conducted. Correct? 6 : No. They weren't done 7 right. 8 : The SHU counts? 9 : Yeah. 10 : Okay. Then we don't need 11 to really go into too much -- 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : -- detail with that. Is 14 this the first that you are seeing this? 15 : Yeah. I haven't seen that 16 before. 17 : Okay. 18 : This was still on the counts? 19 : No. 20 : Now, we're going to move 21 on because the warden agrees that there is not 22 really reason to really dig further, because he 23 agrees this clearly shows that the counts were 24 not conducted in the SHU, from a certain time 25 on. EFTA00128014

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 MR. : Do you want to ask about the 2 Fernandez key? 3 : What about it? 4 MR. : Who's responsible? 5 : So, Fernandez -. Oh, can 6 you just - sorry - would you mind signing, 7 initialing and just dating? If Fernandez was 8 actually removed from the SHU -- 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- and placed onto R, you 11 know, RA dry cell, or R&D dry cell, oh, RA and 12 R&D are interchangeable. Correct? 13 : RA -- 14 : Because RA for - RA, I 15 believe, is what it shows in the count slip, 16 but it stands for the R&D -- 17 : That's the R&D -- 18 : -- right? 19 area. I believe. Yeah. 20 : So, if he's actually 21 moved there around the 3:00 p.m., on August 22 9th, 2019, who would have been responsible for 23 keying him out of the SHU, and placing him into 24 the RA, so that the count would be accurately 25 reflected? EFTA00128015

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 : SHU would have notified 2 control center, that we are moving one over to 3 R&D. 4 : And by that notification, 5 do they also say, can you please key him out, 6 and into? Or is that just automatically done 7 by control? 8 : Well, the notification is 9 made to control that inmate such and such is 10 being placed on dry cell in R&D. And then, you 11 key the inmate to that area. 12 : Sure. 13 MR. : So, I'll give you a quick 14 background. It looks like 15 : Who is that? 16 : Right. 17 MR. witnessed this. 18 : (Indiscernible 19 *02:31:02). 20 : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : And he wrote up the shot. 22 : Right. 23 MR. : And he called the lieutenant. 24 He requested the lieutenant. 25 : Right. EFTA00128016

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 MR. : And it looks like he 2 requested the lieutenant, but he never notified 3 control -- 4 : Okay. 5 MR. : -- that an inmate was being 6 moved. Right? If - and I'm (Indiscernible 7 *02:31:20). 8 : Well, no, no, no, no. I 9 wouldn't (Indiscernible *02:31:21) -- 10 MR. : He doesn't recall -- 11 : I wouldn't -. 12 : But then, while the counts 13 are going on, there is somebody in R&D. So, 14 whoever is sitting in R&D should know that I 15 need to do a count slip because I have an 16 inmate down there. 17 : Is this where somebody 18 disappears, that we're looking for? 19 : Right. 20 : Again, I told you, this 21 was more of an administrative thing. Just to 22 say what does the warden, you know, and the 23 boss of this place, what is his take on these 24 matters? Because as you have gathered, a lot 25 of things went wrong this day. So, we need to EFTA00128017

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 1 figure out why these things went wrong. So, 2 this is -. Let me just make sure, before we 3 move on, that I got everything. All right? 4 So, first, before we get into rounds, when a 5 lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU -- 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : -- are they required to 8 conduct a round of the inmates going up and 9 down the different tiers, or does the round 10 consist of just checking in with the officers 11 to make sure everything is okay? 12 : Well, you check the officer 13 to make sure they are all right, and you check 14 the documentation. So, you check, you know, 15 you edit, you would have to review the post 16 orders also. To state what their duties are. 17 I mean, all of us had different, you know, I 18 was a lieutenant, so it was different things 19 you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make 20 sure, you know, the officers checked off, you 21 know, if the person ate or not. Any medical. 22 I would check to see if medical came up. So, 23 it would factor and depend on what shift you 24 went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates 25 are up, so you're going, you know, you can go EFTA00128018

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 around. Evening shift, you can see what's 2 going on. The midnight shift, they're 3 sleeping. But you are definitely checking a 4 30-minute log, to see if the inmates are doing 5 their 30-minute checks. And, you know, just 6 documentation. 7 : Now, as the warden, did 8 you expect your lieutenants, though, to go down 9 range when they were doing their lieutenant 10 visits in the SHU? Their rounds. And this is 11 specifically when they are, like, signing off 12 on the different, like, on, as you can see, 13 this is what I'm going to be showing you. 14 These are round sheets that -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- you sent to Mr. 17 , where it shows the different 18 lieutenants signed on/off that they did their 19 round. 20 : But what does -- 21 : So, what does that -? 22 : -- what the lieutenants are 23 checking for is accuracy of the officer's 24 rounds. 25 : Okay. This is -. EFTA00128019

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 : So, what they are checking 2 is, okay, were the 30-minute infrequent checks 3 done? Now, if there is an easy, that they are 4 not being done, you know, so, you know, then it 5 needs to be annotated and said, okay, this is 6 what the issue was. But if they are signing 7 it, they are kind of acknowledging that, you 8 know, that the time that the round will put 9 down, that they were down. 10 : Now, what would be -? 11 This is the round, it looks lie for 8/8. Can 12 you think of a reason why these wouldn't be 13 done? But they would be signed off on right 14 here? 15 : Let me see. So, if a 16 lieutenant made rounds and saw this thing was 17 empty like this, then it is a problem. 18 : Because you have this 19 8/8. And then, there is zero rounds showing 20 that they were conducted, but this lieutenant 21 signed it. 22 : That's a problem. 23 : The same thing. We go, 24 this whole thing. So, this whole shift looks 25 like they didn't even sign it until here. On EFTA00128020

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 8/8. 2 : Wait. Did you print these 3 off the logbook, or -? 4 : This is what you sent to 5 6 : Right. 7 : On Saturday, August 10th, 8 at 6:21 p.m. 9 : Now, the only other thing I 10 can think of, and when I had gathered 11 something, I might have said, because the 12 checks are done at, like -. No, these are 30- 13 minute checks, so they -- 14 : This is also -- 15 : -- you know, these are -- 16 : -- this is the day, this 17 is two days before Epstein was found. 18 no, this is No. 19 was thinking of the log. The log did it 20 electronic. But this, no. This -- 21 : We have the electronic 22 version. 23 : -- yeah. This is 24 : Which one? 25 no, this is -. That EFTA00128021

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 means -- 2 : So, this is just wrong? 3 yeah. This is wrong. 4 : Should have this 5 lieutenant signed that? 6 : No. He should have signed 7 it. They should have put something -- 8 : Okay. 9 listed as some 10 discrepancy, why the checks weren't done. 11 : And on these, whereas it 12 looks like, this lieutenant is signing, it 13 looks like probably because these are done. Do 14 you think that is the reason why this 15 individual hadn't signed these? Because these 16 weren't correct? 17 : Probably. I can't speculate 18 on that. 19 : Because it says -- 20 : I can't. 21 : -- reviewed by morning 22 watch lieutenant. Where they do that, well, 23 that lieutenant does start signing it here, 24 where they are now filled out. 25 : Right. EFTA00128022

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 : For the same date. 2 : So, this looks - hey, I 3 don't know who it was - but this looks 4 (Indiscernible *02:36:10) worked it. 5 : Okay. 6 : Let me see how those 30- 7 minute. That's the same one. I don't know who 8 it was. Who it was. 9 : Okay. So, that was 10 (Indiscernible *02:36:19). Certainly go look, 11 but whomever it was during those shift. And 12 then, we get into, it looks like, 13 (Indiscernible *02:36:30) still. And these. 14 Here is the 8/9. Where -- 15 : Right. 16 : -- it's signed off, 17 signed off, until 2:00 p.m. 18 : That's a problem. 19 : After that, no sign off. 20 Same thing. 21 : Yeah. 22 : That's just when I think 23 left his shift, or somewhere around 24 that time. So -. 25 : The point of this, if I may EFTA00128023

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ask, is we got a miscount, right? 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : We're not -- 4 : This is -- 5 : -- we've moved on from 6 counts. Now we're on rounds. 7 : Okay. Now, counts. The 8 significance of the counts is, at some point, 9 Reyes disappears? 10 : No. The significance of 11 the counts is that, if inmates - or if the 12 staff members aren't conducting counts and - 13 counts are to the accountability of the 14 inmates, to make sure everybody is there. 15 : Right. 16 : Rounds -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : -- are basically to make 19 sure everyone is alive and breathing. Is that 20 correct, sir? 21 : You are right. Counts are 22 accountability, and then, the 30-minute checks 23 are basically safety checks. 24 : So, the point of these 25 questioning is, it looks like at - what we just EFTA00128024

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 finished was counts - we have shown that the 2 staff members were not conducting their counts. 3 : Right. 4 : Right. Because that is why 5 you have 72 when it should be -- 6 : Now we are doing rounds. 7 : -- (Indiscernible *02:37:41). 8 : To find out were the 9 staff members conducting their rounds. 10 : Got it. 11 : And again, we have, in 12 this case, a very high-profile inmate that was 13 deceased. Became deceased at some point. 14 : And they think -- 15 : And -- 16 : -- plus it's whether they 17 : -- yeah, it -- 18 : -- noticed on their rounds 19 that the guy was deceased. 20 : -- if they were 21 conducting -- 22 : Or -. 23 : -- rounds at all. And if 24 they were conducting rounds, would that be - 25 and this is a question to you, like, we'll ask EFTA00128025

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 you now, since I'm making that explanation - 2 they were conducting their rounds, would that 3 be a way to at least try to help ensure that 4 inmates such as Epstein were alive and well? I 5 know it's not going to prevent it in every 6 case, but is that part of the reason, to make 7 sure that, if they are conducting a round, you 8 are checking to see if they are alive, and they 9 are breathing. 10 : It is true, but I mean, and 11 because I mean, an inmate can, you know, you 12 can do your 30-minute rounds, and if they want 13 to do their harm to themselves, they are going 14 to do it. 15 : Right. And that goes 16 into play with why -- 17 : They just 18 : Right. 19 : -- they just look, they do 20 rounds by looking in their cell. 21 : Right. 22 : So, if you want to -- 23 : To check. 24 : -- do harm, you just wait 25 until they go passed your cell. EFTA00128026

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 220 1 : Right. And then, you kind 2 of figure out the timing of the route. But the 3 fact remains, if you are not showing on the 4 form that you did your rounds, then that's a 5 problem. 6 : So, when you are looking 7 at these rounds that you sent , are 8 you finding problems because they are not 9 completed correctly? You know, what we just 10 looked through. In fact, you know, these are 11 August 10th. (Indiscernible *02:39:09), 12 they're not signed off. There's blocks that 13 are not filled in. 14 : Yeah. Looking at them now? 15 : Right. 16 : What is the question? 17 : Well, does it show you 18 that, at least this paperwork doesn't appear to 19 be filled out correctly? 20 : Yes. 21 : And that is for the 8th, 22 as well? 23 : Right. 24 : Okay. So, that was -- 25 : And that is something, it was EFTA00128027

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 your job to pass that on to 2 : No. He requested -- 3 : No, no, no, no. 4 : -- the information. 5 : This is just to show that 6 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- what the round sheets 9 that the warden sent to the regional director 10 were these rounds. So, it's just a matter of, 11 hey, do you know if these rounds were -? It 12 has nothing to do with his, you know, if he did 13 it right or not. It's, what his staff members 14 15 : Right. 16 : -- doing it right. 17 : Right. 18 : And who was responsible 19 to make sure the round sheets are done 20 correctly? 21 : Well, the staff working up 22 there are responsible. And then, the 23 supervisor is supposed to ensure that they are 24 doing it. 25 : And what is this? This EFTA00128028

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 was also attached. What is that right there, 2 that we are looking at? 3 : Hmm. 4 : TruScope logs? 5 : Yeah. This looks like 6 TruScope. This looks like the log. And so, 7 like, if they are doing what areas they search. 8 : And these are searches? 9 : Yeah. These looks like 10 searches. 11 : Okay. 12 : Let me see that. Search. 13 Did the areas. Visiting. Strip room. 14 Recreation area. Yeah. These are 15 : Okay. 16 : -- these are search areas. 17 : Does it show anywhere in 18 there that there was any cells that were 19 searched, or are they just all, like, common 20 areas? 21 : No. They searched it. Look 22 how -. What is this? Nine South. SHU. 23 Completed all. These are, these looks like 24 everything they have done in there. The fire 25 and safety checks. This is - it looks like the EFTA00128029

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 log. 2 : Okay. So, this goes with 3 you. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : So, all to this. This is 6 something else that we asked for the BOP to 7 print out for us, and this one specifically one 8 we asked. When you send us the cell searches 9 that were conducted on 8/9/2019 -- 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : -- we got back one. By 12 Mr. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : It say that it was 15 conducted at 12:36 p.m. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : On 8/9/2019. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Is that a problem? That 20 only one cell search was conducted in the SHU? 21 According to, at least according to TruScope. 22 : Because I believe the post 23 orders state it is supposed to be - and don't 24 quote me on it -- 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00128030

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 224 1 : -- you have to look at the 2 post orders - but they state, I think five a 3 shift. A minimum of five. 4 : It's five, I believe -- 5 : Yeah. 6 : -- for the night watch. 7 The day watch, I believe, is more. And the 8 morning 9 : They're supposed to do five -- 10 : -- watch is just 11 (Indiscernible *02:41:59). 12 : -- cell searches? 13 : No, no. Each shift is 14 minimum of five. 15 : I don't think -- 16 : And then -- 17 : -- that includes that 18 morning watch, though 19 the morning watch is 20 : -- because there's -- 21 : -- area. 22 : -- right. 23 : Yeah. You are -- 24 : Common areas. 25 : -- picking the common area. EFTA00128031

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 : So, let me get this clear. 2 : Yeah. 3 : You are supposed to do five 4 cell shifts, five cell searches per shift? 5 : Yes. That is -. 6 : All right. And in this case, 7 there is only an indication that they did one? 8 : One. Right? 9 : One the whole day. 10 : One the day whole. 11 : Not per shift. The whole 12 day. 13 : Okay. Now, whose job is it -- 14 : No. 15 : -- to say why aren't you doing 16 those? I was going to use the F word. Why 17 aren't you doing all the cell shifts? 18 : Well, this is, this is my 19 question to the warden is, is that a problem, 20 that there was only one logged into TruScope? 21 : Mm-hmm. It is a problem. 22 : Does that indicate that 23 the cells were not being searched, to you? Or 24 that they just weren't logging them in? 25 : And again, whoever was EFTA00128032

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 1 working that day, you're going to have to ask 2 them. I mean -- 3 : And we have. 4 : -- looking at -- 5 : And it was just -- 6 : -- looking on paper, I mean, 7 it shows you didn't, you didn't conduct your 8 searches. 9 : Okay. 10 : I mean, now, there might 11 have been a reason where the person said, okay, 12 the computers were down or whatever, but it is 13 highly unlikely for -. 14 : So, but you are literally 15 going into a cell and search it? Does that 16 mean -- 17 : Yeah, yeah. 18 : -- you throw over the 19 mattresses, the whole thing? 20 : No. You pull them out. You 21 look at -- 22 : Okay. 23 : -- look and check the 24 lockers. You check under their stuff. You 25 know, and you typically do it, like on certain EFTA00128033

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2z - 1 days when the guys are going out to take a 2 shower, you might go out and do that. 3 : So, with your suggestion 4 that computers could be down and things like 5 that, as you can see from the email attachment 6 that you said, there are certainly plenty of 7 searches that were entered in there 8 : Oh. 9 : -- but there is only one 10 cell search. 11 : Right. 12 : And so, I would assume, 13 would that indicate that the computers are 14 actually up and running? 15 : Yes. So, this one, this is 16 the same day? 17 : What are you looking -- 18 : That could be (Indiscernible 19 *02:43:42). 20 : -- yeah, this should be 21 8/10, and 8/9 and 8/10. 22 : 8/9 -- 23 : I would think. 24 reg number. Reg number. 25 : It shows the dates here. EFTA00128034

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 I just can't see them. 2 : Yeah. Change base. Yeah. 3 This is a search one. This is the log. 4 : Okay. So, problematic, 5 in your opinion? 6 : Yes. It is. 7 : All right. So, not only 8 searching them, but is it equally as important 9 to actually log it in, as well, so that we know 10 whether things are being searched? 11 : Yes. You should log it. 12 : All right. Now, this, 13 this comes to the kind of question on this. 14 When Epstein was found, are you aware that he 15 was in a cell that didn't coincide with what 16 his inmate history quarters, and what the BOP 17 database said, where he should have been? He 18 was in the wrong cell. 19 : I did hear, afterwards, that 20 there were some issues with Sentry and the way 21 they keyed into the cells. 22 : All right. And what did 23 you hear? 24 : I think, just that the cell, 25 the way the inmates were being keyed in was EFTA00128035

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 off, it didn't match this cell. 2 : Right. 3 : That. 4 : So, yeah, his assigned 5 cell within the BOP database was not where he 6 was located -- 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- in person. At least 9 when he was found on August 10th, 2019. 10 : Right. 11 : Now, is that something that is 12 - I should shut up, right? 13 : No, no. I'm good. 14 : Go ahead. 15 : Now, is that something that 16 goes on up to you? Is that your responsibility 17 to see where guys are being celled? 18 : No. But I mean -- 19 : Yeah. Most of my 20 questions to him isn't that -- 21 : Right. 22 : -- it's his 23 responsibility, it's whose responsibility was 24 it? 25 : Okay. Got it. EFTA00128036

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 230 : And then -. : So, who should have made 3 sure that Epstein's cell, in the BOP database, 4 matched where he was physically located? 5 Because obviously, people get a hold of the 6 information that he wasn't in his assigned 7 cell. You know, that is just more reason to 8 people not trusting the government. So, we are 9 just trying to figure out -. 10 : Well, and this is not a 11 problem limited to one person. It is a problem 12 - and I think it is a Bureau-wide problem, as 13 far as specific keying in cells. I don't think 14 this was done in a malicious -. 15 : So, what happened here, 16 our investigation shows is that when he came 17 back from -- 18 : Right. 19 : -- from suicide, or 20 psychological observation, he was placed into 21 the cell that it shows on July 30th, on this 22 form. However, because his - is it CPAP 23 (Phonetic Sp. *02:46:24)? 24 MR. : CPAP. 25 : His CPAP machine, the EFTA00128037

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 cord didn't reach the plug. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : So, they had to move him 4 to a different cell. 5 : Right. 6 : So, from July 30th to 7 August 10th, he was in the incorrectly assigned 8 cell. No one ever caught that. No one ever, 9 you know, and my thought being is, well, if 10 they are doing their cell searches -- 11 : Oh, I thought you meant -- 12 : -- wouldn't -. 13 : -- the cell didn't match up 14 with -- 15 : No, no, they -- 16 : -- (Indiscernible 17 *02:46:52). 18 : -- they logged him into 19 the cell that he was placed in, coming out of 20 psychological observation. 21 : Right. 22 : On the 30th. Then, they 23 physically moved him to a different cell. 24 : Right. 25 : On the 30th. Because his EFTA00128038

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 CPAP machine wasn't, the cord didn't reach. 2 : What is a CPAP machine? 3 : It's the snore -. It's 4 to help you breathe when you are sleeping. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : And he needed a CPAP machine? 7 : Yes, sir. 8 : For the snoring. 9 : So -- 10 : Don't call me sir. Please. 11 I'm old. All right? You're reminding me. 12 : And so, no one ever went 13 back into the system from, all the way from the 14 30th up to August 10th, and made that 15 correction. 16 : Right. 17 : Who was responsible for 18 that? 19 : So, whoever made the cell 20 change should have contacted control center. 21 : And is the control center 22 that actually made the change, not the 23 individuals in SHU, or the SHU lieutenant? 24 : No. The -- 25 : Because my understanding EFTA00128039

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 233 1 it would have been the SHU lieutenant or the 2 OIC. 3 : Bed changes? 4 : To verify their cellmates 5 where were the Wherever the BOP databases 6 said they are. 7 : So, you have to, you would 8 have to call control center to make that 9 change. 10 : Okay. So, who should 11 have called the control center? 12 : Whoever made the change in 13 Sentry. Because I - and then, don't quote me 14 if I'm wrong - because I don't believe SHU 15 staff have control over keying where an inmate 16 is in. 17 : Yeah. No. I thought the 18 OIC might, or the that the SHU -- 19 : No, because 20 lieutenant would. 21 in that case, beds would 22 be really messed up. 23 : Right, right, right. 24 : So, the control center is a 25 centralized area. EFTA00128040

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 234 : Okay. : So, a call should have been 3 made down to control, saying, hey, this is 4 where he's being keyed to, and this is what -. 5 : And who should have made 6 that call? 7 : Whoever made the change. 8 Whoever switched him. 9 : And my understanding is 10 that the OIC and the SHU lieutenant were 11 supposed to review cell assignments, to make 12 sure inmates were in their assigned cells, at 13 least on a periodical basis. Is that correct? 14 : Yeah. You do a, what we 15 call a bed book check, to make sure. Because 16 your board, you know, when you are in the unit, 17 you have a board up there, and you just match 18 where everyone is at. 19 : And how often should that 20 happen? 21 : There is no set policy, but 22 as a good practice, you know, you kind of want 23 to check what your open cells are, where, you 24 know, where individuals are. And should it 25 also be checked if they were doing cell EFTA00128041

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 searches? Would that be caught, if they were 2 doing searches? 3 : Well, if you are doing 7, 4 cell search, all you are going to do is put 5 down the cell number, and the individual in it. 6 It wouldn't -. You wouldn't necessarily be 7 able to find out if it is the correct room. 8 : Okay. 9 : And the correct bed in 10 Sentry. 11 : All right. 12 : But, you know -. 13 : So, in this instance, 14 then, and I'll shut up so I can actually let 15 you answer, who -- 16 : I have the same problem. 17 : -- who is it that should 18 have notified control center to make this 19 change? It sounds like you said whoever 20 physically moved him, at the time? 21 : So, what happens is, whoever 22 physically moved him should have said, okay, 23 this is where, you know, you are, this is where 24 we are moving him. And then, you let the - 25 typically - the OIC know, and then, they will EFTA00128042

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 call down to control center. 2 : And if that didn't -. 3 : Can I speak to my client for a 4 second? 5 : Yeah. 6 : Sure. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Do you want me -- 9 : Yeah. 10 : do you want me to push 11 pause? 12 : No. 13 : Yeah, no. I'll take him to 14 the other -. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 : Sure. Okay. It's 4:46 17 p.m., and this is Senior Special Agent 18 , and I'm pushing pause. 19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 20 off the record and back on the record). 21 : The recorder is back on. 22 It is 4:53 p.m., after a short break. And I 23 remind you, sir, you are still under oath. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : All right. So, we EFTA00128043

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 stopped with the, we were talking about who was 2 responsible for making sure Mr. Epstein was 3 logged into the correct cell within the 4 : Question. 5 : -- BOP database system. 6 : Were there other cells that 7 were wrong? 8 : Do you know that, 9 MR. : Not We don't know if -. 10 This, we know only because we checked this. 11 : Okay. So, I mean, 12 everything else could have been right, and that 13 could have been a -- 14 : No. Well, we found out, 15 this is the reason was because, again, he was 16 placed into that cell, and then moved because 17 of the CPAP machine. 18 : No. I was -- 19 : Well, our question was -- 20 : -- you know, wondering if it 21 is a systematic, or an individual problem. 22 : Correct. 23 : That's why I was just 24 curious. 25 : Yeah. And that's EFTA00128044

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 something that we should probably -. 2 : Well, and my question is, does 3 that have any effect on count? I mean, they 4 still should be able to look in the cells if 5 there was a (Indiscernible *02:51:28). 6 : Well, when -- 7 : Well, the problem comes 8 in, again, I think is the credibility of, hey, 9 now we have Epstein, who was found in a cell, 10 and it's not his assigned cell. So, that just, 11 you know -- 12 : But I'm saying -- 13 : -- the media says all of 14 these things that went wrong. 15 : -- yeah. 16 : One being -- 17 : I've had that. 18 : -- wait, he's not even in 19 the right cell. Well, how did that happen, and 20 who was responsible? 21 : Okay. Now, so, my question 22 is, does it make any difference? I mean, if 23 they are supposed to do the count, the count is 24 you look in the cell, and see -- 25 : Right. EFTA00128045

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 : -- whether there's a guy in 2 there. Well, whatever number he's in, or he's 3 not in, he's still in his cell. 4 : No. Correct. 5 : You know? 6 : But because we are doing 7 this deep dive review -- 8 : Okay. I gotcha. 9 : -- it's showing these 10 different, you know -- 11 : Got it. Okay. 12 : -- and again, this is, 13 this is one of those things -- 14 : You're just being extra 15 careful. Yeah. It's (Indiscernible 16 *02:52:14). 17 : -- and not like 18 (Indiscernible *02:52:15). Yeah. We just have 19 to, we have to address the fact that -- 20 : He wasn't in the right cell. 21 : -- Mr. Epstein wasn't in 22 the cell that he was assigned to. 23 : Okay. I mean, it's not just 24 that. Someone (Indiscernible *02:52:22) that 25 he said, oh, he doesn't have a roommate, and, EFTA00128046

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 you know, by the way, we also counted the wrong 2 number of prisoners. 3 : Right. 4 : That's a lot of mistakes. 5 : Right. And we haven't 6 even gotten involved. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : As I'm sure you know. 9 But -- 10 : Right. 11 : -- so, after the person 12 who moved him didn't contact and have this 13 changed, how would have, then, how would we, 14 then, how would have anyone found out that he 15 was in the wrong cell? What processes are in 16 place to ensure that where they are matches up 17 with the actual database? 18 : Well, I guess if they were 19 doing -- 20 : You said bed book counts? 21 : -- yeah. Usually, you could 22 do, you do your bed book counts, to ensure, you 23 know, that every inmate is in the cell that 24 they are supposed to be. When you are updating 25 your accountability board, you would look and EFTA00128047

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 see, okay, you got him here, where is he at? 2 And then, match it up with, you know, with 3 Sentry. 4 : And who would be doing 5 those things? 6 : The staff working up there 7 in SHU. 8 : Is the lieutenant, the 9 SHU lieutenant, at all involved, as far as you 10 know, in making sure that this is all accurate? 11 : Well, he was spearheading it 12 to make sure everything was 13 : He was the supervisor. 14 : -- was right. Yeah. He was 15 the supervisor. But going in and saying, okay, 16 let's, did this happen? Have we done this? 17 And have we done that? 18 : Okay. 19 : And -. Okay. Just to make me 20 clear, somebody dropped the ball as to whether 21 or not he should have a, he had a roommate. 22 : Right. 23 : Okay. And somebody dropped 24 the ball as to whether he was in the right 25 cell. EFTA00128048

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Right. : Okay. And then, somebody 242 3 would have dropped the ball as to either, 4 dropped the ball or they maliciously didn't 5 find out that he wasn't on the count. They had 6 said we did a count, but they didn't notice 7 that, or didn't - that he wasn't breathing, you 8 know what I mean? 9 : Right. 10 : Okay. That starts to be a 11 problem. 12 : So, just pointed 13 out to me. On the after-action review -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- they did review this. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : And it says that, 18 according to their review -- 19 : Right. 20 : -- this is not my review. 21 : Right. 22 : Or review. 23 "Significant discrepancies exist within Sentry 24 regarding cell quarters assignments." QRT. 25 QTR. "Although it is well documented, inmate EFTA00128049

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 Epstein was housed with two other inmates 2 during his assignment in SHU. Sentry does not 3 reflect this information accurately. Inmate 4 Epstein was found within cell 220, that Sentry 5 never reflects him being housed within that 6 cell at any time." But to answer your 7 question, the first sentence says that there is 8 significant -- 9 : Okay. 10 : -- discrepancies. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : The way that I read that 13 is, overall, whether they are referring to 14 specifically Epstein -- 15 : Epstein. 16 : -- that, I am not able to 17 determine -- 18 : Right. 19 : -- based upon that 20 sentence, but it does sound like, overall, that 21 they had some discrepancies. So, Lieutenant 22 would have supervised it, but it's really 23 the staff that would be responsible for doing 24 these bed book counts, and making sure 25 assignments are -- EFTA00128050

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 244 1 : Yeah. He did it right there 2 3 : -- the inmates are in 4 their assigned -? 5 : -- and then, whoever is 6 moving an inmate from a cell to a cell, you 7 make the notification. 8 : And is it surprising to 9 you that almost two weeks later, that wasn't 10 caught? 11 : At two weeks later from 12 where? 13 : From -. He was placed 14 into the cell on July 30th, 2019. He's found 15 August 10th, 2019. That entire time, it was 16 never caught that he was not -- 17 : In the right cell. 18 : -- locked in the right 19 cell. 20 : Yeah. 21 : Is that a significant 22 amount of time that went by without catching 23 that? 24 : Without catching it. It is. 25 : Now, is that, you know, EFTA00128051

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 all staff that was in there, or is it, like, 2 really -? 3 : And again, and you probably 4 have to speak to the captain who was 5 responsible for doing the checks, and doing the 6 count. 7 : So, would the captain 8 have some responsibility on this, too? 9 : Well, did the captain is in 10 charge of correctional services. So, that is 11 the unit he is over. 12 : Okay. 13 : So, he has overall 14 responsibility to make sure, you know, in 15 conjunction with the lieutenant, that the unit 16 is running the way it is supposed to run. 17 : And what should have the 18 captain done in order to make sure that that 19 was accurate? 20 : Well, now, there is 21 different ways of finding out if stuff is 22 accurate. Like, you have the perpetual audit 23 system. Where they are responsible - the 24 lieutenants - are responsible to conduct 25 perpetual audits. So, you can find out through EFTA00128052

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 those, when you do it. And they are usually 2 quarterly. But if there is discrepancies and 3 things are going on in that department of 4 correctional services, we have what we call 5 perpetual audits, which he maintained the 6 records of, and that is another checks and 7 balance where you would find out if something 8 is wrong. 9 : And how often are those 10 done? 11 : Those are done quarterly. 12 : Quarterly? 13 : Yeah. 14 : All right. So, the fact 15 that this is, we are talking about, like, ten 16 or 11 days, there is a good chance that they 17 weren't done during that time period? Or do 18 you know when they would be done? Are they 19 done, like, on a certain date? 20 : What, the quarterly? 21 : Yeah. 22 : It's - and I don't know when 23 the dates of the quarter starts - but that is 24 to your checks and balance. You know -- 25 : Right. EFTA00128053

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 1 : -- you do your perpetual 2 audits, and then you catch it, and say, oh, 3 wow. We did an audit. And this is wrong. And 4 then, you come up with the corrective action to 5 fix it. 6 : So, that's how the 7 captain could have determined, I guess -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- but how, in those -- 10 : The captain would find out. 11 : -- ten or 11 days, how 12 would have that been caught? 13 : Again, you would have to see 14 your inmate accountability board. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : You know, are you matching 17 Sentry, if you are pulling off Sentry and 18 matching it with what is on the board. 19 : But - and I apologize 20 that I'm beating -- 21 : Right. 22 : -- a dead horse here, 23 but, like, who does that? 24 : Again, I don't know who, you 25 know, who the lieutenant assigned it to, who EFTA00128054

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 1 the OIC. You know, everybody has different 2 duties, and -- 3 : So, it is not like -- 4 : -- different ways that work. 5 : -- not like morning watch 6 does this, or it's just based upon what passed 7 down from lieutenant to the OIC -- 8 : Right. Like, what 9 : -- to whoever. 10 : -- no, but basically, when 11 you decide to do it. You know, I mean, I can't 12 see, on the midnight shift, you are doing an 13 accountability check like that, because the 14 guys are sleeping, and, you know, you are 15 looking for a living, breathing body, but you 16 can't physically see them. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : You know, so, what shift was 19 picked to check and say, okay, let's make sure 20 our cell, the accountability in the cell. So, 21 I can't -- 22 : You can't really answer 23 the question. 24 : I can't really speak -. 25 : Sure. That's fine. EFTA00128055

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : All right. Let's get 3 this stuff out of your way. If you don't mind, 4 this 5 : Am I right that we are getting 6 close to the bottom of the pile? 7 : We are. We are getting 8 close. 9 : Because Jesus Christ, I can't 10 take this. L-O-L. (Indiscernible *02:58:29). 11 : We are -. (Indiscernible 12 *02:58:31) with this. 13 : Yeah. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : So, this is the email 16 with all the rounds, and the SHU assignment. 17 And these were separate. 18 : Now, let me ask the question 19 (Indiscernible *02:58:48) the supervisors. 20 Your job is the prison. It's your job to look 21 down into the prison, as far as these counts 22 and, you know, accountability boards, and so 23 forth. 24 : No. I mean, that is what 25 you have a captain for and a lieutenant for. EFTA00128056

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 (Indiscernible *02:59:06). You know? 2 : Okay. 3 : And then, we touched on 4 this before, but this is an email that the 5 captain sent to you. 6 : Right. 7 : Regarding the lieutenant 8 rounds on 8/9 to 8/10. He sent them, he sent 9 this email on August 11th, 2019. He said, 10 "Warden, here are the lieutenant rounds for 8/9 11 to 8/10. Below are the workstations logged on 12 to complete rounds." 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : But again, for you, a 15 lieutenant round, and I don't know if we ever 16 came to that conclusion, or that we may have 17 got off topic on that. But a lieutenant round 18 is used primarily to check in, and it's not 19 necessarily to go down the different ranges? 20 : On the midnight shift. So, 21 they typically not, you know, unless they have 22 an issue, but like you said, you as a 23 lieutenant can walk - should walk - around and 24 see. Now, the midnight shift is hard, but the 25 other shifts, you, you know, walk around, see EFTA00128057

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 1 what's going on. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : All right. So, should 4 they, though, be walking down the ranges on 5 both the morning, or the day watch and the 6 night watch? Evening watch. 7 : This is what I will say. 8 You probably got to look at the post orders and 9 see -- 10 : Yeah. The post orders -- 11 : -- the post orders. 12 : -- aren't clear with 13 that. 14 : Yeah. 15 : We haven't -- 16 : So, it's not -. 17 : -- we haven't been able 18 to -- 19 : It's not -- 20 : -- specifically 21 determine. 22 : -- that's what I mean, it's 23 not a requirement. 24 : Okay. 25 : You know, for the EFTA00128058

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 252 1 (Indiscernible *03:00:26), they are in there, 2 making rounds, checking the books, to see if 3 you got a problem on the range. You would call 4 that. But most lieutenants do, you know, just 5 walk the ranges. Just to see what is going on. 6 : Because most lieutenants 7 that we talked to -- 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- said that they were 10 absolutely required to do -- 11 : Right. 12 : -- a round, just like a 13 SHU staff member -- 14 : Right. 15 : -- was to do a round. 16 Some lieutenants -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : -- specifically, 19 lieutenants that worked that day -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- said, nope, there's no 22 requirement to do that. 23 : But -- 24 : So, that's where I'm, as 25 the warden -- EFTA00128059

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r- 1 : Well -- 2 : -- who is right? 3 : No. The expectation is, 4 like you hit any unit, you make your rounds 5 within the unit. The SHU unit is no different. 6 That you say, hey, I'm going to go in there, 7 make sure everything is, you know, check on the 8 inmates. And make sure they are fine. But if 9 we are talking about the post orders, were they 10 required to? The post, you know, the post 11 orders, I don't believe had the requirement 12 that they have to, you know -- 13 : Okay. 14 : -- physically go in the 15 (Indiscernible *03:01:24). 16 : So, does that - if I 17 understand you correctly - the expectation was 18 that they conduct a round, just like a SHU 19 staff member, but there is no requirement to do 20 so? 21 : Yeah. You should be walking 22 around. 23 : All right. 24 : To see if everything -. 25 : But it's not like you EFTA00128060

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 254 1 told them, you gave them a directive, make sure 2 you are doing this. 3 : No. 4 : So, there is no 5 : No. 6 : -- so, if someone wasn't 7 doing it, it's not like something they would be 8 disciplined for? 9 : See, that's hard. I mean, 10 to say you would discipline. There is a 11 difference between what is written down, and 12 what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are 13 coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, 14 want to see what's going around the unit. I 15 might ask the officer, all right, do we have 16 any problems. The inmates, when you come on, 17 hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, 18 lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are 19 going down the ranges. You know, so, when you 20 are going down the range, you are seeing 21 something. You get to another range. The 22 inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, 23 it is something you should be doing as part of 24 your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just 25 walking around, to make sure everything is -. EFTA00128061

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 255 1 : But if you were still the 2 warden of the MCC, and found out that your 3 lieutenants, when they were signing off on 4 doing rounds -- 5 : Right. 6 : -- and you found out that 7 they were only checking in with the staff 8 members, and they were not actually walking 9 down the ranges, is that something that you 10 would find problematic? 11 : I would correct it. 12 : And when you say correct 13 it, what do you mean by that? 14 : I would tell, you know, get 15 with the captain, and I would tell the captain 16 they need to be, you know, in inmate grounds, 17 they need to walk the ranges. 18 : So, they should be 19 walking the ranges, then? 20 : Off of the post orders, it's 21 not in there, you know -- 22 : I know. I -- 23 : -- any place saying that you 24 have to do it. But as a supervisor, that like 25 any unit you walk on, you want to see what is EFTA00128062

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 going on in the unit. So, do I want to use the 2 word "sound correctional judgement"? You know, 3 just to see, as a supervisor, what is going on. 4 I mean, you have some people that go above and 5 beyond. And then, do their job, and you have 6 some people that want to do the bear minimum. 7 But that is something 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- from a rounds point of 10 view, I would say you need to make those 11 rounds. 12 : Okay. Let me ask you a 13 question. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : You do the rounds. Does that 16 mean literally walk up and down this, what we, 17 what I would call the cell block? 18 : Yeah. You walk around the 19 unit. You know, you are interacting with 20 inmates. You are talking to inmates. Same 21 thing with the inmates in SHU. You know, you 22 are walking around. Hey, what's going on? 23 : So, what you are not 24 familiar with is the way the SHU is set up. 25 : Right. EFTA00128063

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r - 1 : There is different 2 levels, and there is different -- 3 : Yeah, I've been to the SHU. 4 : -- hallways. 5 : Know what I remember about the 6 SHU, it's fucking cold. 7 : Right. 8 : Yeah. So, like, if you 9 are just, you can simply go in and go to the 10 officer's station, and check in with the staff 11 and say -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- everything good? You 14 got all your paperwork in order? All your 15 paperwork is actually right here on the desk. 16 Did you find it problematic that they are 17 keeping all of their round sheets on the desk 18 versus on the ranges themselves? 19 : Different places do it 20 different ways. 21 : Okay. 22 : Some -- 23 : So -. 24 : -- some places have it, they 25 keep it at the end of the range, and you sign EFTA00128064

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 1 it. Some have it right there, the log, you 2 know, take the logbook and they just sign it. 3 So -. 4 : So, the individuals, the 5 ops lieutenants and activities lieutenant that 6 we spoke to, that worked on August 9th and 7 August 10th -- 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- a majority of them 10 said, if not all of them, no, no, no, all i 11 needed to do was go to that officer's station, 12 check in with my officers, make sure their 13 paperwork is done, and then I left. Every 14 other lieutenant that we talked to said, no. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : When you sign that paper, 17 you are signing it just like you conducted a 18 round, as if the SHU staff conducted a round. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : You had to go down every 21 range -- 22 : Right. 23 -- make sure everything 24 was good to go. You are not just checking on. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00128065

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 1 : So, what we are trying to 2 say is, which one is right? 3 : Well, now, for the ones that 4 are saying that I don't have to go down and 5 check every range, they are going off the post 6 office. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : The ones that are doing 9 their job, they are going around and checking 10 every time. 11 : Okay. 12 : Making sure the wellbeing of 13 the inmates, and you are checking on the 14 wellbeing of your staff. 15 : All right. So, it kind 16 of sounds like nobody is right, and nobody is 17 wrong? They need to change the post orders? 18 : Well, they would, they would 19 have - should put in -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- their post orders, but 22 they should be going around, and 23 : So, they should have a rule 24 : -- the wellness check. 25 : -- that says, you got to go EFTA00128066

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 around? 2 : Yeah. 3 : Okay. 4 : So. 5 : So, no one technically 6 did anything wrong. They should just really do 7 it? 8 : They should. They should 9 just do it. 10 : Okay. Fair enough. 11 MR. : The term used was "sound 12 correctional judgment. 13 : Yes. 14 : All right. So, that - 15 again - was that email from to you, with 16 the lieutenant rounds. 17 : Damn. That pile is a lot 18 lower. 19 MR. : Unless you want to go right 20 back on it. 21 : Now, this says -- 22 : Wait a minute. Wait a minute. 23 I'm fucking out of here. If you bring that 24 pile back, I'm out of here. Now, I'm going to 25 give you some of that money back, but I can't EFTA00128067

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 1 take this shit no more. 2 : So, this one says it's 3 from 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : To you. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : Who is 8 : He aws a unit manager there 9 for the PCU Unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:23). 10 : Okay. At the MCC? 11 : Yeah. 12 : It says, subject, "Weekly 13 rounds -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- as requested." 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : So, these are weekly 18 rounds from August 4th, 10, 2019. What is that 19 for? 20 : That was for our Wood sec 21 unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:34). 22 : Oh, okay. 23 : Yeah. 24 : So, you actually had your 25 own separate wood sec unit? EFTA00128068

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 262 1 : Yeah. 2 : So, that is not in SHU? 3 Or is it? 4 : Huh? No. That's not in 5 SHU. That is a separate unit all together. 6 : So, why was this 7 provided? For any reason? 8 : Because I like to -. I used 9 to like to track who was making their rounds 10 and not making their rounds. 11 : All right. 12 : So, they had to send it to 13 me every week. 14 : So, was this just 15 coincidental? Nothing to do with Epstein? 16 : Yeah. This had nothing to 17 do with him. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : This was probably what he 20 had to send up that week. 21 : Okay. 22 : It was the end of the week. 23 : Okay. 24 : So, that's what he sent. 25 So, that had nothing to do with him. EFTA00128069

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 do with Epstein. 3 4 5 going to -- 263 : So, this has nothing to No. : All right. I'm not even 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 : -- you can keep that over 8 here, so we don't get that confused. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 : All right. So, this one. 11 As far as this one, it says, from you to Mr. 12 It says SHU rounds. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : What SHU rounds are we 15 looking at here? This is a new document here. 16 : Okay. This is on -. This 17 is eight, for the -- 18 : This is for executive 19 staff -- 20 : -- the week starting at 21 eight -- 22 • or-? 23 this is starting for 8/4 24 rounds. So, this is, these are my rounds that 25 I'm doing. EFTA00128070

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 1 : Now, is there some kind 2 of a requirement that you conduct rounds? 3 : Yeah. The warden is 4 supposed to go up and go -. 5 : So, you are supposed to 6 conduct rounds in the SHU? 7 : Yeah. About once 8 : Or is this -- 9 : -- a week. Like, you can go 10 up as many times, but, you know, the warden is 11 supposed to be going. 12 : All right. 13 : Now, that means you are 14 supposed to conduct rounds in the SHU? 15 : Yeah. I go in the SHU. I 16 walk around and do rounds in every area of the 17 institution. So. 18 : And is everyone on here 19 supposed to do a round weekly? Because I have 20 never seen this round sheet until reviewing 21 your emails. 22 : No. This is every Bureau 23 institution has this. This is where you sign 24 into the Special Housing Unit. This is the 25 log. And this is showing that they made their EFTA00128071

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 1 rounds. So, these are the lieutenants right 2 here, showing that they made their rounds. So, 3 at the end of the week, when they send me the 4 round sheet, and let's say it looked like this, 5 my question would be, okay, did they make 6 rounds, or did they forget to make rounds? 7 : Is this and this the same 8 thing? 9 : For the lieutenants, it 10 would be. 11 : Just the lieutenants? 12 And no one else? 13 : Yeah. No one else. This is 14 computer services. The duty officer has to go 15 up there. 16 : Now, so -- 17 : Right there. 18 : -- this shows that you 19 did two rounds. 20 : Right. 21 : And you are only required 22 to do one. Correct? 23 : Yeah. 24 : AW programs. 25 : That, she did it on Friday. EFTA00128072

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 1 : So, the fact that AW 2 operations has nothing in there, is that 3 problematic? 4 : And here is the other thing 5 could have happened. A lot of times, they make 6 the rounds, sometimes they forget to initial 7 and sign it. 8 : All right. 9 : So, what I would do is, I 10 would look at it and say, okay, when I got at 11 the end of the week, what happened? How come 12 you didn't make rounds? 13 : So, all of these blank 14 spaces, were these people supposed to be doing 15 rounds in SHU? 16 : Not everybody is required. 17 They should have been up there, but they are 18 not required. Like, the finance facility -- 19 : The correctional judgement -- 20 : -- food services. 21 : -- would be they could go up 22 to that. 23 : But health services has to 24 make rounds. 25 : You're getting it. EFTA00128073

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : The PA's. 2 : By the end of the day, man, 3 I'll be ready to go to MCC myself. I hated 4 going to prison. 5 : Psychology. You know? 6 : So, which ones on here 267 7 that are actually required to conduct rounds? 8 : You have the unit team 9 that's supposed to go up. The lieutenants. 10 : Well, SIS, it doesn't 11 appear that they did any rounds. 12 : That's -. 13 : But I'm assuming they 14 certainly should have. Correct? 15 : SIS should have been up 16 there, to go around. So, and again, I would 17 look at it and see who was on leave. Somebody 18 might have been on leave, not on leave. 19 : And what are - so, when 20 these type of individuals, it looks like more 21 high level such as, I mean, obviously, you are 22 the highest level, what is a warden round look 23 like? Do you all have to walk down the range, 24 or -- 25 : So, what I -- EFTA00128074

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 1 : -- is that what you do? 2 -- what I do is, I walk 3 around and I go to every cell, and I talk to 4 the guy, got any issues, any problems? 5 They're, like, no, I'm good. You might have 6 some that say, hey, I'm up here for an 7 investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up 8 here? So, I take my little notes. Okay. 9 Fine. Some of it I can address right there, 10 some of it I can't. But I would typically walk 11 around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, 12 that is the reason why you are up there. Why 13 am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, 14 you go by it, it says 15 : It's because you are a fucking 16 mass murderer, that's why you're up here. 17 and, like, you know why 18 you are locked up. And then, they would say, 19 well, how come the investigation is taking so 20 long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, 21 if it was an OIG investigation. It would 22 depend. So, you know, I would usually tell 23 them, like, you know, it's an outside agency 24 handling. We are in contact with them. And 25 somebody will come see. EFTA00128075

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Okay. : Some could be up for 269 3 administrative, like an incident report. 4 : So, you went through and 5 talked to everybody, but were you required to 6 do that, or is it just because you just were a 7 good employee? 8 : I mean, that's what you 9 should be doing. 10 : That's what you should 11 do. But I mean, like you talked about before, 12 well, the post orders don't say that. 13 : Well, I don't have post 14 orders. 15 : Right. 16 : Yeah. So, I mean 17 : But you are -. But 18 something does say that you are required to do 19 it once a week? 20 : There's nothing in writing 21 to tell me you have to do it. But just like 22 visit every area, I have to, I visit every area 23 of the institution. You know, make sure I see 24 every employee going there on the off shifts. 25 I would go on the off shifts, you know, to see EFTA00128076

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 1 the staff, but it's -- 2 : It's a surprise. In other 3 words, you are not telling them you are coming, 4 you are just going. 5 : Yeah. I'm coming up. I'm 6 making my rounds. I'm sitting, talking to 7 staff. What's your issues? I mean, it's more 8 the issue of them just work. I mean 9 : So, when you say there's 10 nothing in writing, saying that you should do 11 it, or is there something in writing saying 12 these people that didn't do it, that they 13 should have done it? 14 : No. And there could be 15 reasons. Now, they - and this is what I would 16 get the report and look into - like, there are 17 people that make the rounds, they come up to 18 SHU but they forget to sign in. 19 : Right. 20 : So, when I get the report, 21 would, you know, talk to the captain, that this 22 the entrance log, and say, hey, why didn't such 23 and such make a round? Now, that AW might have 24 been out that week, and I had this one covering 25 both. So, they came up with the AW. EFTA00128077

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 271 1 : Now, is there any way to 2 determine, like, these people that, for 3 instance, visited on Friday, what time they 4 visited? Because this is the day that Reyes 5 was gone. So, it says the captain was in there 6 on Friday. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Should have he noticed 9 that Reyes wasn't there? 10 : Not necessarily. If he 11 didn't go down range. And he could have come 12 up, and remember, we have Ten South that's 13 connected. So, I don't know if he came up 14 there, you know, for an issue for Ten South. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : So, I don't know. And then, 17 him making his rounds, even if he's making his 18 rounds, you are going to have empty cells on 19 the range. 20 : Oh, you will? 21 : Yeah. Well, somebody -- 22 : Even if - 23 : -- somebody could be at 24 medical. Somebody could be on an attorney 25 visit. EFTA00128078

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : So, it wouldn't -- 2 : So -. 3 : -- it wouldn't caused a 4 red flag, you don't think, if he saw, like, 5 Epstein's cell empty? 6 : Well, if empty cell is 7 empty, the first thing you're saying, he's down 8 on attorney visit. Because the rounds are made 9 during the daytime. 10 : And in that note, would 11 they say, though, because it says 12 , and it looks like was there, too 13 : Right. 14 : -- should have those two 15 people, if they actually did a round, say 16 Epstein is down there, but where is Reyes? 17 : I mean, they could have. 18 mean, but Reyes could have been in the shower. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : You know? I mean -- 21 : But it wouldn't be 22 something that would be normally asked? 23 : No. 24 : It was, like, oh -- 25 : Hmm-mm. EFTA00128079

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 273 1 Epstein, high-profile 2 guy, where is his cellmate? That wouldn't be - 3 4 : No. I mean -- 5 : No. 6 : -- you're just saying, okay, 7 Epstein is downstairs, his, you know, or maybe 8 his cellmate was in attorney visit, it could 9 have been on a shower day. He could have been 10 in rec. 11 : Okay. 12 : I mean -. 13 : So, you are more 14 concerned about the people that are there, as 15 opposed to who weren't there, it sounds like 16 that? To check in with them. 17 : That, I mean, you want to 18 see, making sure you are around, making rounds, 19 talking to everyone. So, I don't know what, 20 you know, what the thought process is, or, you 21 know, if somebody was in the shower or not. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : So. 24 : Sure. No. And I'm not 25 trying -- EFTA00128080

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 that. 4 : Mm-hmm. : -- to get you to say : How many days a week can you 5 take a shower when you're in -? 6 : The entire of three times. 7 Monday. Typically, it's Monday, Wednesday, and 8 Friday. 9 : And what about this one? 10 This one is from to you. Weekly 11 rounds on August 12th, 2019. Is this 12 : The PCU. 13 : -- is this -? So, this 14 is the same thing? 15 : That's the PCU unit. Wood 16 sec unit. 17 : The wood sec unit. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : All right. So, this 20 might be the exact same thing as -. Oh, this 21 is what I did (Indiscernible *03:14:50). 22 Sorry. All right. That sounds good. Do you 23 mind just initialing and dating that? 24 : Now, we are getting close to 25 the end. EFTA00128081

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Hmm. you had two 275 3 follow up questions before we move on. Why 4 don't you ask those? 5 MR. : If the counts and the rounds 6 were done -- 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. as they were supposed to 9 be done, let's say in the afternoon, by the SHU 10 C.O.s, would they have caught the fact that 11 Epstein's cell was empty, and inmate Reyes was 12 actually not where he was supposed to be? In 13 terms of that, if he was assigned, if Epstein 14 was required to have a cellmate, and Reyes was 15 transferred, would they have caught onto the 16 fact that Epstein needed a cellmate? 17 : I don't understand what -. 18 MR. : Let's say Reyes was 19 transferred, right? 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : If the counts and the rounds 22 were done, in the afternoon, the 4:00 p.m. 23 count, the rounds in between, if they were 24 done, would the SHU C.O.s have caught on to the 25 fact that Reyes was missing from the cell? EFTA00128082

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 1 : But they already knew that. 2 MR. : If the word of mouth -. 3 : So, the claim is -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 made up that 6 stuff in the memo. And says 7 never told me that. 8 : Right. 9 : That they say that's 10 bullshit, and he's lying. 11 : Right. 12 : The people that he said 13 were present say the same thing. 14 : Right. 15 : He didn't say that. 16 : Right. 17 : So, point being is, well, 18 if didn't pass that information on, if 19 they were actually conducting their rounds, 20 should they have noticed that he wasn't there? 21 : Yeah. If they knew that he 22 didn't If they knew, they knew that - 23 what's his name? - Epstein wasn't supposed to 24 have a cellmate. So, if you see his cell on 25 there, that I guess, and on the outside of the EFTA00128083

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 1 cell, they would have his name and the other 2 person. Then you should be saying, okay, where 3 is the cellmate? We know he's not in the 4 attorney room. 5 : Okay. 6 : So. 7 : I got it. 8 : So, you know he's down in 9 the attorney room. So, you would have said, 10 okay, somebody's got to be in that cell. 11 : Hmm. Ace bastard. That's a 12 way to fuck with the other guys. 13 MR. : Meaning, if they actually did 14 the rounds and the counts like they were 15 supposed to, there was more than enough time 16 for them to turn around and assign another 17 cellmate, if needed. 18 : Or to say, of course, to 19 your point, where they are saying that nobody 20 ever told them, if you were making your rounds, 21 you would have saw that there was nobody in 22 that cell, and then ask you a question, where 23 he's at. 24 : And the person whose job it is 25 to make sure they are doing their rounds is the EFTA00128084

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 1 lieutenant or the captain? 2 : On the shift, it is the 3 lieutenant would check. But now, in fairness 4 to the lieutenant, if you are going off of a 5 sheet, and the sheet says, hey, you made your 6 rounds, and then, something like this happens, 7 then you find out people didn't make their 8 rounds. 9 : And I think what 10 question to you was, does this suggest to you 11 that they were not actually conducting their 12 rounds? The fact that Reyes was gone for 24 13 hours, and the notifications weren't made? 14 : It would appear that that is 15 the appearance. 16 : (Indiscernible *03:18:07). 17 : Yeah. I mean. 18 MR. : I just have one other 19 question. 20 : When I do cross examinations, 21 and it says, it would appear that, yeah, 22 that's, yeah, somebody found. 23 MR. : Have you ever heard of C.O.s 24 pre-filling round sheets? 25 : When he says pre-filling, EFTA00128085

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 1 what he is saying is that, the beginning of 2 their shift, they are going in and they are 3 just writing, they are initialing and putting 4 in the time. At the very beginning, for the 5 rest of their shift. 6 : So, let me put it to you 7 this way. If I -- 8 MR. : I saw you smile -- 9 : -- no, no. 10 MR. : -- when he asked that. 11 : Because if I become aware 12 and know that somebody is doing something like 13 that, that is reportable misconduct. I'm going 14 to report that. So, if somebody came to me and 15 said, well, this person is pre-filling out 16 count slips, that would be something that 17 would say, okay, you know, I have to do a 18 referral, or if I don't have enough evidence 19 for it, I would have a supervisor, you know, 20 put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count 21 slips. 22 : So, if we have people 23 confessing, admitting that they are not only 24 pre-filling out their count slips, but also 25 doing it with their round sheets -- EFTA00128086

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 280 : Right. : -- what is your response 3 to that? How bad of a -? How bad is that? 4 : Well, that is a referral. I 5 would have to do a referral for you guys to 6 look into it. 7 : And then, if they are 8 actually pre-filling those out, does that also 9 suggest to you that they didn't do their counts 10 or their rounds? 11 : Well, I mean, if they're 12 telling you that we pre-filled it out, it's 13 obvious that they did not, they are not 14 counting. 15 : Right. 16 : Because if somebody is pre- 17 filling out a sheet, that means 18 : They're not counting. 19 : -- they have no intention of 20 counting. 21 : And does that indicate to 22 you, as the warden, that they are falsely 23 certifying rounds and counts that they did not 24 conduct? 25 : If they come to you, and EFTA00128087

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 they say, hey, we didn't fill out, we haven't 2 done our count slip, that is an admission of 3 misconduct. 4 : Right. But a false 5 certification, as well. Correct? 6 : Yeah. That is falsifying the 7 document. I mean, but they have admitted that 8 to you. But as far as -- 9 : Now, what if you -- 10 : -- me -. 11 : -- what if they are 12 saying - they are a newer employer - and they 13 are saying, well, we are doing it because we 14 watched a 20-year guy do it. That's how I 15 learned. He didn't tell me to do it. But I 16 watched him do it. 17 : So -- 18 : So, I did that. 19 : I would -. So, I would 20 say to you, when did that person come in? 21 Because anybody that came in under me, you get 22 the spiel that, hey, I was new, I was an 23 officer. I know what it is to be new. But I 24 always, always tell people, you got to know 25 what's near and dear to you. EFTA00128088

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 1 : And that is why I asked 2 you specifically -- 3 : Right. 4 : -- with . Are 5 you confident that you gave her that spiel? 6 : Talk to whoever was in her 7 class, and you talk to any, any new class that 8 came through, and they will tell you my spiel. 9 : Okay. 10 : Okay? You can go into our 11 annual training, when we have it, talk to 12 people, and they will tell you about my spiel. 13 : Do you say that always at 14 annual training? 15 : I cover everything. Because 16 I have -- 17 : Yeah, but do you always say 18 is, you have to do what you have to do. Don't 19 do it just because the 20-year-old guy did 20 that. 21 : I do. I tell people about 22 doing their job. The same thing when it comes 23 to use of force. I tell staff all the time. 24 Use enough force necessary to control the 25 situation. EFTA00128089

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 283 1 : But specifically about 2 not watching the 20-year guy. What is it that 3 you tell them? 4 : So, what I tell them is, I 5 come in -- 6 : Because it sounds like it 7 is the same thing you tell them every time. 8 : -- right. So, what I 9 basically tell them, I said, you got some good 10 people that work in the institution. And then, 11 I had, you got some people with time, that just 12 want to do what they want to do. And I tell 13 them, don't follow them around. I said, you've 14 got one. If you are on probation coming in, 15 you need to be doing your job. I said, if 16 someone comes in, and they're not doing their 17 job, or they're telling you not to do 18 something, you make sure you let your 19 supervisor know. I said, I make rounds, you 20 can talk to me. 21 : Okay. 22 : You know? So, the 23 expectation was clear. But with any other 24 agency - and I'm not just saying our agency - 25 there are people that come in and they become EFTA00128090

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 followers. 2 : Now, we're going to move 3 on. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : We talked about the phone 6 call. 7 : Right. 8 : On August 9th. What is 9 your understanding of what transpired with 10 Epstein being provided a phone call on the 11 night of August 9th, 2019? 12 : So, from what I understand, 13 when you come in, you have to be able to do, 14 for the monitored calls, the voice analysis and 15 all that. So, from what I understand 16 afterwards, Epstein was never available for 17 that to be done. Because he went down to the 18 attorney room, and he would come up at night. 19 So, from what I understand, he was given an 20 unmonitored call. 21 : And what do you mean by 22 an "unmonitored call"? 23 : An unmonitored call is a 24 call that is not recorded with the inmate phone 25 system. EFTA00128091

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Is it your -- : In other words, they don't 285 3 listen to what you say? 4 : Right. They don't. 5 is it your 6 understanding that anyone physically monitored 7 the call, or did you -? 8 : From what I understand, the 9 individual was standing right there when he 10 made the call. 11 : All right. So, it is our 12 understanding that, "On August 9th, 2019, 13 Epstein made a request to MCC unit manager, 14 , to provide him with a phone 15 call, so that he - Epstein - could call his 16 mother. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 checked Epstein's 19 pack and PIN, and found out it was not yet set 20 up. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Therefore, toe< 23 Epstein to a shower area in the SHU, and 24 plugged a phone into a legal line. 25 dialed the number. A man answered. He handed EFTA00128092

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 1 the phone to Epstein. And then, left 2 for the day. stayed -". Oh, sorry. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : "Then we found out that 5 the SHU C.O.s were around. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : And did not 8 specifically instruct any one of them to 9 monitor their phone call. Instead, he called 10 the SHU after he departed from the MCC, to make 11 sure that the phone was taken away from Epstein 12 after his allotted time." Had you heard that 13 before? 14 : I have -. What I heard was 15 he was there and did the monitoring. 16 : So, your understanding 17 was that, was there the entire time of 18 his call? 19 : That, at the entire time of 20 his call. 21 : So, a number of questions 22 off of that. The fact that dialed the 23 number that he gave him, and a man called. A 24 man answered. Who, he said he was calling his 25 mother. A man answered and he gave him the EFTA00128093

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 287 1 phone. Is that problematic to you? 2 : I didn't hear that it was a 3 -. Who did I -? They said it was his -. 4 MR. : So, that information might 5 have come out after. 6 : It came out after. I didn't 7 - I heard that after the fact - so, I didn't 8 hear any specifics, but I heard it was -. _ 9 forgot who they said it was that called, but 10 then afterwards, they said, whoever they said 11 it was, was deceased. That he didn't have that 12 talk. 13 : I think it was his 14 mother. 15 : Yeah. I think it might -. 16 So, and that, that is what I heard. 17 : His -- 18 : Yeah. 19 : -- his mother died during the 20 time of this investigation. 21 : Hmm. 22 MR. : She was previously deceased. 23 : Deceased. 24 : So, wait, wait, wait, wait, 25 wait. EFTA00128094

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 1 : Yeah. 2 : So, he calls, looking for his 3 mother. 4 : He said he wanted to talk 5 to his mother. 6 : But his mother was already 7 dead. 8 : Right. 9 : And the person who 10 answered the phone was a male. But he still 11 gave the phone to Mr. Epstein. Is that 12 problematic? That he says he wants to talk to 13 his mother. A man answers. And then gives the 14 phone to Mr. Epstein. 15 : Well, remember, I am hearing 16 this, that it was a call that all along said 17 I'm calling the mother. I don't know anything 18 about a man answering the phone. 19 : No, no, no, no, no. I'm 20 providing this information as in, like, you are 21 the warden, what is your take on this? Did he 22 do something wrong there? 23 : Well, as far as, you know, 24 you are saying you want to talk to your mother, 25 and the EFTA00128095

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 1 : And a man answers the 2 phone. 3 : -- and then, a man answers 4 the phone. Yeah. It might have been some 5 questions he should have been asking. 6 : Should have he verified 7 who it was he was providing -? If he is giving 8 him an unmonitored call, on an unmonitored 9 line, should have he verified who it was that 10 was on that other line? 11 : Right. If a male picked up 12 the phone. 13 : Why do you know it's an 14 unmonitored line? 15 : Because the legal line 16 isn't recorded? 17 : Right. 18 : So, that means unmonitored, 19 that it's -- 20 : Yeah. That you can't -. 21 : -- it's not recorded. 22 : Right. 23 : Correct. 24 : Okay. 25 : On that note, were there EFTA00128096

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 1 any lines that Mr. could have plugged 2 the phone into, that were monitored, versus if 3 they didn't have a pack and PIN? 4 : Not on the ranges, I 5 believe. I'm not sure. 6 : No? 7 : I don't think there was 8 anything on there. 9 : Because, yeah, we had 10 been told by someone that many, if not most, 11 BOP facilities have the ability, if a pack and 12 PIN such as that wasn't set up. There are 13 lines that you could plug it into, that are 14 monitored, but at MCC, that wasn't the case 15 : No. 16 : -- in SHU? 17 : Not on the ranges. 18 : Okay. 19 : No. 20 MR. : You said not on the ranges? 21 : Yeah. 22 MR. : Where would it be? 23 : I'm not sure. I think 24 religious services might have a line. The 25 Chaplin. EFTA00128097

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : But not in the SHU? : Not in the SHU. 291 3 : Okay. So, not only did 4 he do that, but he then left the SHU for the 5 day. Obviously, he was supposed to sit there 6 and listen to the call. Correct? 7 : Right. 8 : Should have he put it on 9 speaker phone? 10 : Either listen to the call, 11 or if he had somebody else take over the call. 12 : Okay. 13 : You know, so, somebody 14 should have been monitoring the call. 15 : Right. 16 : Just to stand there and 17 listen. 18 : All right. Now, the fact 19 that, you know, obviously, dropped the 20 ball there. He gave him a call, he just wanted 21 to talk to his mom, his mom is deceased, and a 22 male answered. 23 : Right. 24 : Second, he didn't stay to 25 listen to the call. Third, he didn't tell EFTA00128098

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 292 1 anybody else to listen to the call. Now, the 2 fact that the other - he leaves the unit - the 3 fact that the other people are in the unit, 4 should have they then, at some point, also 5 said, like, hey, this guy is on a phone call, 6 let's go monitor it, or should have that been 7 something that 8 : Yeah, you couldn't -- 9 : -- would have directed? 10 : -- you couldn't -. But 11 that's what I'm saying. I don't know the 12 conversation that took place between them. If 13 the call was made, and somebody was told to go 14 monitor it. Did they go over it? Did they not 15 go over it? 16 : No. 17 : So, I don't -. 18 : So, Mr. told the 19 people -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- he's on a phone call. 22 Get it back after - whenever it was - 15 23 minutes. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : They were giving him an EFTA00128099

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 unmonitored call. 2 : The significance of this is 3 that, if somebody had monitored the phone call, 4 they might have found out that he was very 5 depressed, or he was -? 6 : Well, there is Can 7 you tell us, why is it important for us to know 8 that what inmates are talking about on their 9 phone calls? 10 : I mean, just for the safety 11 and the security of the institution. 12 : Is it true that they 13 could potentially operate their businesses, 14 their illegal businesses, from there? 15 : You could. 16 : Or they call a hit on 17 someone. Or they could, they could do a lot of 18 different illegal activities, if we are not 19 monitoring those calls -- 20 : Right. That's -- 21 : -- that we wouldn't know 22 23 : -- why we monitor them. 24 : All right. I have one more 25 story. EFTA00128100

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 ' 1 : Yeah. Right. 2 : I'm a young lawyer. And I 3 know it's hard to believe I was ever young. 4 But I go - I'm supposed to interview a prison - 5 and I go to the interview, and he says, this 6 person is the main rat against, and I said, no, 7 he's not. I said, that person has got no - 8 fucking nothing to do with it. He don't say 9 nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, 10 oh, man, I better make a phone call. 11 : So, is it standard 12 practice to allow inmates to make personal 13 calls, as had done? 14 : You do I, sometimes if they 15 come in, they don't have a pack number. Like, 16 you could have a family member that has passed 17 away, and, you know, you allow them to make a 18 call under that circumstance. You know, I have 19 a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, 20 but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, 21 you make a call to another agency. And the 22 inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is 23 such and such. But you stay and you listen to 24 the conversation. 25 : Was there ever an EFTA00128101

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 295 1 instance that you wouldn't listen to the 2 conversation? 3 : On an unmonitored line? 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : No. Somebody should be 6 standing there. 7 : All right. And what are 8 your thoughts on this specific matter from what 9 we just, from what I just told you? 10 : Like I said, if it's 11 problematic, if you said, if it's the way you 12 said it, yeah. 13 : And is it a serious 14 concern and safety violation? 15 : Well, yeah. I mean, it's a 16 breach. 17 : And why? 18 : Because we don't know what 19 the conversation was. 20 : Okay. You said -. Okay. 21 You answered that. These are just on this 22 note, there is just a couple of these. There 23 is a phone call. This one says it's from an 24 Do you know who that is? 25 : Yeah. He's the supervisory EFTA00128102

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 296 1 attorney. 2 : So, he is an attorney? 3 Oh, okay. That's the same guy. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Supervisory staff 6 attorney. It says, "For client Jeffrey 7 Epstein. Good afternoon. Below, please find 8 complaints from Epstein's attorneys. Can you 9 check to see if he has toilet paper, and that 10 his CPAP is plugged in? I am less concerned 11 regarding his complaint of having had two 12 calls, but they were on unmonitored lines. So, 13 there is no recording of them. His phone 14 account is set up, so we could get a call on 15 the ITS, when 30 days has -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- elapsed." 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : So, it looks like this 20 was actually discussed, and this again, was on 21 August 6, 2019. Do you know if this was -? It 22 looks like this was the whole, to the whole 23 executive staff -- 24 : Right. 25 : -- team. Was this talked EFTA00128103

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 297 1 about at all? 2 : It was sent out, and that's 3 when, and I don't recall the timeline, I said 4 he needs to get his stuff set up. Anything -- 5 : Okay. 6 that he needs, needs to 7 get it set up. So, I believe that was the day 8 when I sent everybody up there, in the attorney 9 room area, and said, get his stuff set up. 10 : Now, did you - the 11 captain, I believe, informed that he 12 would give him this call, just make sure it's 13 monitored. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : Prior to that, did the 16 captain talk to you about this at all? 17 : About what? 18 : Well, affording this un, 19 you know, this call on an unmonitored line, but 20 just making sure it was monitored? 21 : No. 22 : No? 23 : Hmm-mm. 24 : But what you had said, 25 make sure his pack and PIN is set up? EFTA00128104

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 298 1 : Yeah. I had to. Because 2 there was some other things to get set up, and 3 I said, hey, we got to make sure that we can 4 get his stuff going. If that's the date, if I 5 remember, where everyone went up and talked to 6 him at the, where he was in the attorney room. 7 : Okay. Now, this is one 8 that's going to be -. Now, did you -. Were 9 you able to print out that attachment? 10 MR. : No. That's just our screen. 11 It's not what they would see. 12 : I was just hoping 13 Okay. So, this is one we got. It's something 14 from 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : And who is that? 17 : That's the communication 18 guy. 19 : Correct. And he is in 20 charge of, like, the phones 21 : The phones. 22 : -- the cameras. 23 : Right. 24 : Correct? 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00128105

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 299 1 : And he's to you, and it 2 says, "Phone record 104." 3 : Right. 4 : Sent on Saturday, August 5 10th, 2019, at 3:04 p.m. Now, it has an 6 attachment here, titled 8.19.19.cap. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : That we are unable to 9 open. Do you know what that would have been? 10 It appears that it is related to the phone call 11 that Mr. Epstein made. Do you remember if you 12 ever received a recording of that phone call? 13 : No. I didn't get any 14 recordings. 15 : Would it have 16 : Nuh-uh. 17 : -- been, maybe, then, the 18 number that he dialed? 19 : I think it might -. And it 20 might have been the number. I'm not sure. I 21 can't -. I don't recall. 22 : Okay. 23 : What that is. 24 : Do you remember asking 25 Mr. to provide you with any specific EFTA00128106

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 300 1 information with regards to the call? 2 : We might have called him 3 about the line, and what was the number that 4 was called. 5 : Okay. 6 : And could they have pulled 7 it up. So, we might have asked him that. 8 : But it definitely wasn't 9 an actual recording on the phone? 10 : No. It was -- 11 : Okay. 12 I think it might have 13 been the number that, you know, I think wanting 14 to pass on to the FBI. 15 : Great. 16 : Uh-huh. 17 : Do you mind just 18 initialing -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- and dating that? 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : I just didn't know what 23 that .cap was. 24 : Right. 25 : So, we didn't know, oh my EFTA00128107