LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 asked, as an aside, whether we would consider 2 housing him in the cadre." What is the cadre? 3 : Cadre is the camp. 4 : Is that low level? 5 : It's like our lower security 6 inmates. Yeah. 7 : So, you have an actual 8 camp at the MCC? 9 : It's low security inmates. 10 But remember, they are designated. So, we 11 couldn't put him in that unit because he's pre- 12 trial. We can't mix designated and pre-trial 13 inmates together. 14 : Okay. It says, "I 15 advised we could not," since he was a pre- 16 inmate. 17 : Right. 18 "Later that day, but 19 prior to 1:00, close out meeting, I spoke to 20 attorney on the phone. He had 21 asked whether we could house Mr. Epstein alone 22 in the SHU, to which I replied that we could 23 not, based on his prior suicide 24 attempt/gesture." 25 : It's just, I've never heard of EFTA00127908

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 his lawyers. You would think that his lawyers 2 would be somebody that I was familiar with. 3 : Yeah. 4 : Since they're probably 5 charging him $2,000 an hour. 6 : "He acknowledged that he 7 understood. To my recollection, neither 8 attorney referenced consideration for suicide 9 watch or psychological observation during 10 yesterday's conversation. Please let me know 11 if you need any further information." Now, was 12 this just a request to any contact that he had 13 with his attorneys? 14 : He was just keeping me 15 informed because the attorneys were calling 16 every day, with different types of requests. 17 : But this was the day, 18 obviously, of when he was found. So, this 19 would -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- he's talking about 22 context, just literally the previous day -- 23 : Right. 24 : -- that he was looking 25 for different housing type arrangements. EFTA00127909

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : But all right. If -. 3 : That was $1,000 a phone call. 4 : Excuse me? 5 : That was $1,000 a phone call. 6 (Indiscernible *01:18:25) charging. 7 : Oh. Now, this answers 8 our question from before. So, this actually 9 says, it's from you to , it says 10 attorney logs. This is that same thing that we 11 were looking at. 12 : Okay. 13 : So, it looks like July 14 30th is highlighted, and Mr. Epstein. And 15 again, all these -- 16 : These are the attorney 17 assignment. 18 : -- (Indiscernible 19 *01:18:43). 20 : Yeah. 21 : Yeah. So, that does now 22 clarify what it is, because, previously, there 23 was nothing that was in the subject liner. 24 : Okay. 25 : Or the body. Okay. EFTA00127910

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 was off. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10th, 2019? Saturday. 104 : Yeah. I'm looking at the stack, and I'm sitting here, just Jesus Christ. We're coming to - hey - we're almost halfway through. : Mm-hmm. : Well, that's the way you're looking at it. (Indiscernible *01:19:04). A little bit different, fellas. I'm thinking about, I'm going to miss today's workout and tomorrows. : Well. Now, you've already answered this, but did you work at the MCC on August 9th? : For that -- : 2019. was Friday. Friday, I : What about on August : 10th was a Saturday -- : Correct. -- I was, I worked on : All right. But did you EFTA00127911

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 work in response to this? 2 : No. I had to respond, if 3 the day of the suicide was August 10th -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- yeah, I had to respond if 6 I came in. 7 : Okay. So, but you 8 weren't scheduled to work? 9 : No. I wasn't scheduled to 10 work. 11 : All right. This is just 12 for - and this is going to be put in here, in 13 case you need to reference it - these are 14 emails that were from you to , with 15 the staff roster. 16 : Right. 17 : And the reason I'm using 18 these is because these were literally sent on 19 Sunday, August 11th. So, I know that we can 20 rely on these -- 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 -- based upon being so 23 close. So, this one is for Friday, August 9th. 24 It's showing who was working that day. And 25 this one is from Saturday, August 10th. Again, EFTA00127912

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 showing who was 2 MR. : This is a correctional 3 roster. 4 : -- correct. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 : Correct. This is a 7 correctional roster. Right. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : So, who was, basically I 10 think, involved with Epstein during that date? 11 So, yes. How many rosters would there be, 12 aside from correctional? 13 : Well, the correctional 14 officers are the only ones that keep a daily 15 roster. 16 : Like, R&D wouldn't do 17 anything like that? 18 : No. Because their staff are 19 already assigned to where they are working at. 20 : Okay. 21 : Yeah. And they have rosters 22 that show where everyone is working at. But 23 not, like, the correctional officer roster. 24 : Okay. So, I'm going to 25 have you just initial and date. I'm going to EFTA00127913

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 place this, again, here, just in case we need 2 to reference it, and again, it's just if we 3 need to look at who was working, and what 4 position -- 5 : There's two on there. 6 : -- and what. Yes, 7 please. So, this one would be for the August 8 9th, that one is for August 10th. This 9 actually was not - the August 10th one - was 10 not attached to your email. Right? 11 MR. : Yeah. You are right. 12 : So, the August 9th one 13 was attached, but the August 10th wasn't. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 : Yeah. So, we had to pull 16 that from -- 17 : Okay. 18 : -- just for full 19 disclosure, but just so that we have both. The 20 August 9th one was something that you had sent. 21 All right. Since Epstein was required to have 22 a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to 23 make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of 24 this requirement? 25 : That they were notified? EFTA00127914

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 : So, how -. So, Dr. Imeri 2 or Mrs. Imeri sent out that email, saying -- 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- Epstein is required to 5 have a cellmate. The one that we reviewed. 6 : Right. 7 : Who was required to make 8 sure that staff that is working in the SHU is 9 aware of that requirement? 10 : Well, the captain passes it 11 on to the lieutenants, and the officers are 12 then made aware that he, you know, any inmate, 13 if they are required a cellmate -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- that, you know, that he - 16 they are to require cellmate, if somebody 17 leaves or goes out. 18 : Now, someone such as an 19 Epstein, who was just coming off of suicide 20 watch, you know, a week, a week and a half 21 prior, should all staff know that that person 22 is supposed to be housed with a cellmate? 23 : In the Special Housing Unit, 24 anybody working in there would know that he was 25 supposed to have a cellmate. EFTA00127915

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 : Do you believe that there 2 was any anybody - especially anybody that's got 3 a quarterly bit of post there -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- but anybody that's 6 working in the SHU on August 9th or 10th, do 7 you believe that there could be a reason why 8 they would say, we didn't know he was supposed 9 to have a cellmate? Do you think that would be 10 an acceptable excuse? 11 : Because you had the staff 12 that usually work up there, were up there. It 13 should be, it should have been annotated on his 14 - what do you call it? - it's called a 292. 15 : The hot list, you are 16 referring to, or -- 17 : No. Not the hot list. 18 : -- or what? Oh, you 19 mean, oh, the 292. You're talking about the 20 SHU -- 21 : Yeah. 22 : -- file. 23 : The SHU file. It should be 24 annotated on the SHU file because, when you 25 come in, you have to annotate on there his EFTA00127916

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 meals, did he eat, the medical rounds. So, it 2 would have been on there, it would have been on 3 there, too. So. 4 : Would it have also been 5 on the hot list, though? 6 : Guys. I need an interpreter. 7 : Yeah. 8 : What does the hot list mean? 9 : It's just -- 10 : That's -- 11 : -- sorry. 12 : -- yeah. I guess the high 13 risk suicide inmates. Yeah. So. 14 : Whether it's suicide, or high 15 risk for some other kind of problem? 16 : It could be -. It's mainly 17 for, like, suicide, just to -- 18 : Medical. 19 : -- to watch out for. Yeah. 20 Medical. Okay. 21 : Seizures. You know, stuff 22 like that? 23 : Yeah. So. 24 : So, point being is, do 25 you think that, if any staff that is working in EFTA00127917

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that, you know, as we know, Mr. Reyes left - - 2 : Right. 3 : -- in the morning of 4 August 9th, Mr. Epstein was found the -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- the morning of August 7 10th. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : SHU staff that is working 10 in there at that time, he's 24 hours basically 11 gone, you know, with no, without a cellmate. 12 Do you think that this is a reasonable excuse 13 for them to say that we didn't know he was 14 required to have a cellmate? 15 : No, because they did know, 16 because I - from what I understand - someone 17 wrote a memorandum, and had it that day, that 18 they knew. 19 : Okay. Well, yeah, we can 20 get into that. Now then, so these are -. 21 : One other question. I want to 22 open a box. 23 : Absolutely. 24 : That means I'm going to have 25 to bring a sharp object in here. Is that going EFTA00127918

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to bother anybody? 2 : No. No. 3 : No. No. 4 : No, no, no, no. 5 : Okay. 6 : I'm sorry, I thought you 7 were talking about, like, this hypothetical 8 situation of if we were in the MCC or 9 something. 10 : Yeah. 11 : Oh, no. No. This is just a 12 13 : You're just wanting to 14 know if you can use scissors. Yeah. That's 15 fine. 16 : Yeah. 17 : I guess we should wait 18 until he gets -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 • -- back again. If we 21 speak loudly, will you be able to hear our 22 questions? 23 : Yeah. 24 : All right. We're going 25 to continue, then. The answer was yes. EFTA00127919

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 : I don't know if that was 2 somebody. 3 MR. : There might be clients in the 4 office. 5 : Oh. 6 : Huh? 7 : Okay. 8 MR. : That's why. 9 : Then we will wait. 10 MR. : He wasn't kidding about the 11 knife. 12 : Oh. 13 : You know why I got this? This 14 movie called Gangs of New York. 15 : That's a great movie. 16 : And he - and a good movie - 17 and the lead actress was a woman named Cameron 18 Diaz. 19 : Sure. 20 : And I had a wild eyed crush on 21 Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife - 22 seriously - I found the guy who made the knife 23 that she carried in the show, and I said, I 24 want you to make me an exact duplicate. How 25 sick is that? Of that knife. And so, this is EFTA00127920

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 it. 2 : That's super cool. 3 : So. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Sorry. I'll ask a few 6 more questions before we get into these 7 documents. Were any plans made on how to 8 address this situation for if Reyes was removed 9 as Epstein's cellmate? Like, if he -. Because 10 I know at MCC, inmates certainly leave. 11 (Indiscernible *01:26:13). 12 : No. I mean, the plan would 13 have been, you know, we would have assessed it, 14 because usually, you get ahead of time, we 15 would have just said, okay, when is -? When 16 Reyes leaves, or you know, when he was leaving, 17 then before he was placed back in that cell, an 18 assessment would have been made. 19 : Okay. Now, what is your 20 understanding of what happened with inmate 21 Reyes on August 9th, 2019? 22 : When I got back after the 23 fact, I guess the Marshals came and removed him 24 from the institution. 25 : Okay. So, there is a lot EFTA00127921

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 of people we've talked to thought he went to 2 court, and that at court, it was determined he 3 wasn't coming back. Had you heard that? 4 : That's what I heard, too. I 5 had heard he was going to court. And then, I 6 guess word got back that he wasn't coming back. 7 That's what I heard. So, I never got 8 (Indiscernible *01:27:00). 9 : It's either a good day in 10 court, or a bad day in court. 11 : Yeah. I never got the 12 actual story because I was, I was removed. So. 13 : Okay. And again, what 14 does WAB mean? 15 : It means With All 16 Belongings. 17 : Okay. 18 : But I don't know, and I 19 don't know if people will say that he left, and 20 then they went and got him from the office. 21 So, I am not sure. 22 : Okay. So, this is -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- one of those documents 25 that says -- EFTA00127922

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 you. 4 : Mm-hmm. : -- from Charisma : Mm-hmm. 5 : With inmate Epstein as 6 the subject. 7 8 : Right. : And it says, "So far, 116 9 this is the documentation I have in my 10 possession." 11 : Wow. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : And if you see, you know, 14 here, it talks about all the documentation 15 pertaining to him. These look like all the BOP 16 database -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- things. Then down 19 here, it says, "Documentation re: Reyes, Efrain 20 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 • 23 Cellmate." 24 : Right. 25 : Right. EFTA00127923

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : It says, "Court 2 documentation regarding WAB 8/09 -- 3 : '19. 4 : -- '19. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : And then, also SHU file. 7 So, "Showing court documentation regarding WAB 8 8/09/19." What documentation is she referring 9 to there? 10 : I guess whatever came 11 through R&D. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : Our Receiving and Discharge. 14 They might have gotten -. They must have 15 gotten information to release him, and that he 16 was being transferred. 17 : So, would it be at all- 18 know R&D creates something called, like, a 19 court production list, or -- 20 : Right. 21 : -- would that be what 22 she's talking about, the court production list, 23 or would she be, do you think -- 24 : So -- 25 : -- or, like, a PP-38, or EFTA00127924

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 something, or whatever -? 2 : I think, and I'm speculating 3 now, it was probably the court list, and it 4 probably said, we're sending him off to court. 5 And it was a possibility that he might be 6 getting released. 7 : Because the document that 8 has been alluding me -- 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- is that court 11 production list. Do you know if that was ever 12 obtained? Do you know, the thing that, that 13 R&D creates this list, they provide it to the - 14 15 : Oh, the court -- 16 : -- different housing 17 units. 18 : -- list. I don't. I don't 19 know what they do with it. 20 : They just, they all say 21 they -- 22 : Now -- 23 : -- destroy it after that 24 time. 25 : Yeah, they do, but -- EFTA00127925

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 : But -- 2 : -- with him -- 3 : -- but that's what would 4 have been used by the SHU staff, in order to 5 produce Reyes to the R&D. 6 : No. Not necessarily. What 7 typically happens is, the R&D staff will call 8 up to SHU, and say, hey, I need Reyes down. He 9 has court. Or he's being released. So, there 10 wouldn't have been a document sent up. 11 : So, everyone that we 12 talked to said R&D said, yes, we created this 13 document. 14 : Right. 15 : And the SHU staff, 16 including the OIC, said, yes, we had 17 documentation showing that he was WAB. So 18 then, and they all said it was because it was 19 this court production list that you sent out 20 emails to -. 21 : Unless it's sent in the 22 early morning. 23 : And it's not something 24 that's sent electronically. It's something 25 they said that they generate, print out -- EFTA00127926

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Right. : -- and hand to 120 3 different, the ops lieutenant has one, every 4 housing unit has one. Internal goes around and 5 collects people, based upon it or something. I 6 think. And then -- 7 : So -- 8 : -- then they basically 9 destroy it at the end of the day, and nothing 10 is maintained in the system. They just use a 11 template, and create a new one for every day. 12 : So, that must have been the 13 early court movement. So, I was under the 14 impression that he was, he left in the 15 afternoon. So, when typically in the 16 afternoon, they will just call up and say, hey, 17 we got one that's leaving. So, I assumed he 18 had left that afternoon. 19 : Okay. So, is it, then, 20 are you not - then to answer that question 21 are you not sure exactly what she's referring 22 to when she says "court documentation regarding 23 WAB"? 24 : Like, the way you explained 25 it, then that means they were talking about EFTA00127927

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/ 1 morning courts. 2 : Well, that's what they 3 were -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : I'm just talking about 6 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- specifically, what 9 she's talking about in this email to you. Do 10 you -? 11 : But when you say WAB, With 12 All Belongings, it depends on the time of day 13 they left. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : You know? You could have 16 afternoon court, and you don't have that list 17 generated, and they say -- 18 : But if -- 19 : -- we need all his 20 belongings. 21 : -- this might help -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- and then, we will keep 24 this in front of you -- 25 : Okay. EFTA00127928

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 : -- this might help 2 explain this. So, this is an email that was 3 sent from the U.S. Marshal Service, someone 4 named (Phonetic Sp. *01:30:50). 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : On Thursday, August 8th, 7 2019, at 10:33 a.m. It says, "Transfer of 8 prisoners from NYM -- 9 : To GEO. 10 : -- to GEO. 11 : Okay. 12 : The following prisoners 13 are to be transferred." The second person 14 listed out of the two is, "Reyes, Efrain." 15 : Right. 16 ." 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : "Please schedule the 19 transfer for Friday, 8/09/2019. Please include 20 seven days medication with the medical summary. 21 Thank you." 22 : Right. 23 : So, this obviously was 24 sent to R&D. Correct? 25 : Right. EFTA00127929

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Do we know what kind of 2 medication he was taking? 3 : Well, that's Efrain 4 Reyes. We're not talking about -. 5 : That's Reyes. 123 6 : We're not -. 7 : I know. I just am curious. 8 : It's not -- 9 : We don't know? 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- relevant. 12 : Yeah. 13 : Okay. 14 : I don't think it's 15 relevant. Here is another email that the U.S. 16 Marshal Service sent. This time, it was at 17 Georgios. G-E-O-R -- 18 : Okay. 19 • -- . It says, "Prisoner production." It 21 looks like it was sent to custody. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : On Thursday, August 8th, 24 2019, at 3:36 p.m. And then, this, this 25 document, prisoner schedule report is attached. EFTA00127930

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 And -- 2 MR. : You're looking at the second 3 one. 4 : -- so, for the MCC -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- it shows right here, 7 the second person listed as Efrain Reyes. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : And it just says, "TF, 10 transfer within. MCC New York." And right 11 here, it says, Judge MCC Tot, T-O-T. GEO. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : What I was told, that 14 means that he's transferring from the MCC to 15 GEO. Is that -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- your understanding? 18 : Yes. 19 : And then, on this one, 20 this is the PP-38. On the third - for 21 8/09/2019 - on the third page, it shows Reyes, 22 from ZO6-22. And that means the SHU. Correct? 23 : Yes. SHU. 24 : To pre-remove. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00127931

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : At 8:38 a.m. : Mm-hmm. 125 3 : So, this was 8:38 a.m. 4 He's keyed out of our system. We got these two 5 emails from the U.S. Marshal Service, saying 6 he's being transferred. 7 : So, wait. Let me get this 8 clear. He's being transferred to what place to 9 what place? 10 : From the MCC to GEO. 11 : And what is GEO? 12 : A contract facility. 13 : And what is a contract 14 facility? 15 : A private prison. 16 : Okay. And you had nothing to 17 do with -? In other words, somebody else 18 decides to go from one place to another -- 19 : Yes. 20 : -- you (Indiscernible 21 *01:33:11). Okay. 22 : The Marshals -. 23 : And would that be the judge or 24 the Marshals? 25 : The Marshals, I guess. The EFTA00127932

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 judge. I don't know how the Marshals work, but 2 they -- 3 : Prosecutors. Marshals. 4 : Yeah. 5 : Judge. 6 : Okay. 7 : All in coordination, make 8 those determinations. But, and then, here is 9 an email from you to 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : With what you are talking 12 about, that memo. 13 : Right. 14 : It says, "On Friday, 15 August 9th, 2019," but before we even get into 16 that, now that you have seen this, you have 17 seen these two emails. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : From the Marshal Service 20 on August 8th. On August 9th, at 8:38, R&D 21 actually keys him out. 22 : Right. 23 : All of them say pre- 24 removed or transferred. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00127933

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 : Does that now tell you 2 anything about this, court documentation 3 regarding WAS? 4 : Yeah. Now, it explains that 5 they had gotten a court order to have him go 6 out. 7 : So, what do you think is 8 referred to that court documentation? 9 : I guess it must be all of 10 these documents right here. 11 : This? 12 : Yes. 13 : So, what we're actually 14 looking at, you think she's referring to? 15 : That's, I think, that's what 16 she was referring to. 17 : All right. 18 : Yeah. 19 : So, court documentation 20 meaning, documentation from the Marshal 21 Service, saying that he was going to be 22 transferred? 23 : Right. 24 : All right. Now, based 25 upon what you are looking at here, specifically EFTA00127934

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 from the Marshal Service 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : -- and the fact that 4 Efrain Reyes, whom -. Is it -? I've been told 5 that everyone at the MCC knew who Reyes was 6 because they knew he was Epstein's cellmate. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : But at the very least, 9 everyone in the SHU should have known who 10 Efrain Reyes was. 11 : Right. 12 : Because he was Epstein's 13 cellmate. What should have happened once, on 14 August 8th, as early as 10:33 a.m., and as late 15 as 3:33 p.m., the day before Reyes is 16 transferred, what should have happened? 17 : As far as Epstein getting a 18 cellmate? 19 : Correct. 20 : Right. 21 : The notification is being 22 made that this person is being transferred, 23 everyone gathers him up. And so, what this, 24 I'm going to read this just to give you more 25 information -- EFTA00127935

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 : Right. 2 -- on his backtrack. 3 This is a memorandum, dated August the 12th, 4 2019, to the warden - yourself. 5 : Right. 6 : From , who, my 7 understanding is he was the OIC of the SHU at 8 the time. 9 : Right. 10 : It says, "Subject passed 11 information from Special Housing Unit." So, 12 "On a Friday, August 9th, 2019, at 13 approximately 1:50 p.m., I, SOS 14 passed onto oncoming staff member, Officer 15 , and present shift staff, SOS and 16 Officer , that inmate Reyes was going 17 WAB, and possibly may not return. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Also, that inmate Epstein 20 will be needing a cellmate upon arrival from 21 his attorney visit." Now, what this doesn't 22 state is that Officer , or SOS 23 walked, I mean, both Epstein 24 : I'll go get that. 25 : -- as well as Reyes, down EFTA00127936

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 to R&D -- 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : -- with all belongings. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : Spoke with both Epstein 6 and Mr. Reyes, and stated to Mr. - I think 7 Reyes stated to - make sure you get 8 him a cellmate. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : I'm not coming back. And 11 responding to Mr. Epstein, saying, 12 "Don't worry. We're going to get you a new 13 cellmate." 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : Now, with all that 16 information, being that he is the OIC, he's 17 working in the SHU, he knows that he's WAB. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : We've got all this stuff 20 going on. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : This is the real big 23 reason why I want to talk to you -- 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- as the warden. EFTA00127937

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : This is kind of our 3 primary purpose -- 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- for us being here. 6 So, I apologize if you're going into that, but 7 I want you to have all the information -- 8 : Right. 9 : -- before I answer. What 10 should have happened here? So, R&D is 11 contacted the day before, or two days before 12 Epstein, or Epstein is found. One day before 13 Reyes is, you know, gone. They contacted both 14 custody, as well as R&D. 15 : Right. 16 : R&D pre-removes him at 17 8:38 on 8/09. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : The SHU OIC walks him 20 down, to R&D -- 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : -- and actually has this 23 conversation with Epstein and Reyes, saying, 24 know you are WAB, we're going to get you a new 25 staff, we're going to get you a new cellmate. EFTA00127938

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 : Which means - WAB means what? 2 : With All Belongings, 3 neans they're not coming back. 4 : But Epstein is not coming 5 back? 6 : No. 7 MR. : His cellmate. 8 : Reyes. 9 : Reyes. 10 : His cellmate. 11 : So, the theory is, if you are 12 investigating, somebody says that you're not 13 going to have a cellmate anymore, and in that 14 conversation, or present during that 15 conversation, is Epstein? 16 : Epstein is present. Yes. 17 : Okay. So, Epstein knows that 18 he's not going to have a cellmate for the 19 immediate future? 20 : No. Epstein is going to 21 attorney conference. So, he's going to be -- 22 : No, no, but I'm saying -- 23 : -- in attorney conference 24 until about 7:00 p.m.. 25 : -- that Epstein knows that, EFTA00127939

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 over the next, say, 24 hours, he's not going to 2 have a cellee. 3 : No. , the OIC, 4 tells Epstein, as well as Reyes, that they are 5 going to get him a cellmate. Before he comes 6 back from attorney/client, his attorney visit. 7 : Okay. So, Epstein would know 8 that he hasn't - going to have a cellmate. 9 : Yeah, yeah. So, this 10 isn't part of the theory. What my question to 11 your client is, what should have happened based 12 upon the knowledge that he was WAB? The 13 contact with the Marshal Service, telling him 14 that he's being transferred. The fact that 15 R&D, you know, the OIC walked him down to R&D, 16 and R&D actually logged him out of our system. 17 What should have happened? 18 : So, what should have 19 happened was, this information should have been 20 passed up to the supervisors. 21 : At what point? 22 : See, with the, this 23 information coming in, as far as, you know, 24 when R&D -- 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00127940

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 : -- typically, it would come 2 up to the Special Housing Unit. Once it got up 3 to that, to the Special Housing Unit, the 4 lieutenants should have been notified. 5 : Okay. And which 6 lieutenant? 7 : Whoever was the SHU 8 lieutenant, whoever was the operations 9 lieutenant. 10 : Now, on this case 11 : If the -. 12 : -- the SHU lieutenant is 13 also on leave. 14 : Right. 15 : So, we've got the chief 16 psychologist on leave, the warden on leave, the 17 SHU lieutenant on leave. But we do have an ops 18 lieutenant, we do have an activities 19 lieutenant. And we do have a captain. 20 : So, you should have let the 21 operations lieutenant know, if you didn't have 22 a SHU lieutenant. They, in turn, would let the 23 captain know, and the captain would push it up 24 to the execs then. Then, we would have to come 25 to a determination on who we were going to EFTA00127941

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 house with Epstein. 2 : Now, if the operations 3 lieutenant, his name is 4 : Right. 5 6 : Right. 7 8 : Right. 9 : If he says, yes, I know 10 Epstein was gone, but I believe that he was at 11 court -- 12 : No. You mean -- 13 : -- and he might be 14 returning back. 15 : -- Reyes is gone. 16 MR. : Yes. 17 : So, knows 18 that Sorry, did I say Epstein? 19 : Yeah. You said Epstein. 20 : Yes. knows 21 that Reyes is gone. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : But I think he's at 24 court, and then, he might not be coming back. 25 I didn't pass this information onto my relief, EFTA00127942

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 who was (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:59). 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : However, as our 4 investigation has revealed, the ops lieutenant 5 also has one of these court production lists, 6 that lists Reyes -- 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- as WAB. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : With that knowledge, is 11 that a reason that he thinks that he went to 12 court, and might be coming back? 13 : I can't interpret what his 14 thought process was, but if it said, you know, 15 he was leaving, and I don't know what he was 16 reading at the time. 17 : Right. 18 : He could have been reading, 19 because sometimes the inmates do go out to 20 court and come back. So, I don't know. I 21 can't speak to what he read. Or why he made 22 that determination. 23 : So, listen, wouldn't have most 24 inmates, when they go to court, come back? 25 : The point being here -- EFTA00127943

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 : What I'm saying -- 2 : -- he didn't go to court. 3 : Yeah. 4 : He was transferred. 5 : He was transferred. 6 MR. : And I know you might have 7 covered this, in your understanding, in your 8 experience at the MCC, if an inmate is listed 9 as WAB -- 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. -- With All Belongings -- 12 : Yeah. 13 MR. : -- what is your 14 understanding? Are they coming back or are 15 they gone? 16 : That means he's 17 transferring. 18 MR. : Has there been situations 19 where they come back? 20 : There have been 21 MR. : After WAB? 22 : -- situations that, you 23 know, they go out and they have to have them 24 sending them back, if there was an issue. 25 MR. : Is that a unique situation, EFTA00127944

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 or it happens quite often? 2 : No. I wouldn't say. I 3 would say that it's probably unique. But 4 usually, WAB, they're gone. 5 MR. : So, as the operations 6 lieutenant, if you see somebody listed as WAB, 7 should he have understood that that person is 8 gone, and not coming back? 9 : Should have. But then, 10 you're talking off the document. I don't know 11 what document they read. So, I don't want to 12 speculate what, you know, was it, you know, 13 send them to R&D, whether he saw that. I don't 14 know what document. But I'm saying, if it is 15 this document, that clearly stated WAB. 16 : Okay. But as far as your 17 concern, it doesn't sound like what you were 18 saying is, , who was the OIC at the 19 time, should have he notified the ops 20 lieutenant? 21 : Yes. Whoever is - yeah 22 there should have notified the operations 23 lieutenant, hey, Reyes left, and -- 24 : He needs a cellmate. 25 : -- he needs a cellmate, EFTA00127945

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 : Okay. So, would it fall 2 solely on the shoulders of 3 : No. I mean, okay, so, 4 here's the other checks and balance. So, what 5 about the other people on the other shift? 6 : That's my question. 7 : Yeah. 8 : So, or -- 9 : I mean -- 10 : -- or the people that are 11 working on his same shift. 12 : -- yeah. On his own same, 13 shift -- 14 : So, who -- 15 : -- if it was the 16 notification should have been made to the 17 operations lieutenant. Or the captain. And 18 said, hey, cellmate left. He needs a cellmate. 19 : Okay. 20 : And that cellmate would now, 21 at some point, he goes back to the cell, but 22 that's at the end of the day. 23 : At the end of the day. 24 : Okay. So, nobody is in a 25 position to say, hey, he's in a cell by EFTA00127946

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 himself. Until the end of the day. 2 : Right. But the information 3 is passed onto each other. You know, when you 4 5 : And they are supposed to 6 be doing 30-minute rounds, where they would 7 notice that one cell had zero inmates in it. 8 : Had zero inmates in it. 9 : Yeah. 10 : So, I mean 11 : And that's what brings us all 12 to -- 13 : Right. 14 -- here today. 15 : So -- 16 : Uh-huh. 17 : I mean, that's how it 18 would have made, and when that got pushed up, 19 we would have said, okay, we would have to 20 formulate, okay, who can we get a cellmate for, 21 for Epstein? 22 : And I apologize to ask 23 this because, but, like, so, on each shift 24 would be the OIC, that would be responsible for 25 that. So, for instance, would be on EFTA00127947

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the day watch shift up until 2:00 p.m., he 2 would be the one to responsible to provide the 3 ops lieutenant, but then, the following shift, 4 would it be -- 5 : Whoever is the -- 6 : -- the next OIC -- 7 : -- right. 8 : -- or would also the 9 people that are working in that unit, the other 10 SHU staff, would they be responsible? Or is 11 that a chain of command thing? Like, no, the 12 OIC is really the person making that 13 notification. 14 : Everybody has a 15 responsibility for their safety. Everybody. 16 mean -- 17 : Sure. 18 : I might be the OIC, but I 19 have some responsibilities. If I know, okay, 20 you know what? They might need a cellmate, 21 because I, in essence, I can have an individual 22 assigned to that post, and they're just filling 23 in for somebody that, the regular person that's 24 up there. And then, I have the regular people 25 working up there, who are familiar with what's EFTA00127948

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 going on. So, it's kind of everyone's 2 responsibility. You know? 3 : So, is everyone kind of 4 equally responsible, then, for this? That was 5 working there and didn't pass the information 6 on. 7 : Can you say? Don't guess. 8 : You know what? 9 : No, as the warden, he 10 would be able to say. 11 : I mean, it should have been, 12 it should have been passed on. So, I don't 13 know the dynamics to, as far as what was going 14 on that day, who was working up there. What 15 rounds were being made -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- up there. You know, was 18 the lieutenant coming around? Was the captain? 19 How busy they were. 20 : So, the lieutenant was 21 not on - the lieutenant of the SHU - was not 22 on. However, we do have records that the 23 activities lieutenant at least visited -- 24 : Yeah. 25 : -- the SHU EFTA00127949

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 : You have -- 2 : -- at that point. 3 : -- you have two other 4 lieutenants. Now, I don't know if you are 5 familiar with the Special Housing Unit, but it 6 is a very busy unit. 7 : Yeah. 8 : You know, you're giving out 9 showers. You're giving out recreation. You're 10 doing a whole lot of stuff. You, you know, 11 running around all day, and, you know, 12 sometimes things happen. 13 : Understood. But in this 14 case, wasn't Epstein at your most high-profile 15 inmate? At that time. 16 : I mean, besides my terrorist 17 inmates that I had up there on Ten South. 18 : Well, I guess, at least 19 the Nine South. 20 : I would say he was a high- 21 profile. Yeah. He was a high-profile inmate. 22 : Is it, I mean, on that 23 note, don't you think that they would have, you 24 know, found it pretty important to notify? 25 Especially they - and I don't know that we EFTA00127950

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 brought this today - but there was even signs 2 up that they created, saying, "Mandatory 30- 3 minute rounds on Epstein, signed by God." Or 4 something, you know, along the lines. Not, you 5 know, meaning, like, do this. You know? Like 6 7 : No, that was me. 8 : Is that right? 9 : That was me. No. I mean, I 10 mean, but it was emphasized to them. I mean, 11 so, no one could say that they didn't know. 12 : So, point being, there 13 was, like, signs specific to even Epstein, 14 check on this guy every 30 minutes. 15 : Right. 16 : You know, orange signs 17 that are posted up there. 18 : Right. 19 : So, point being, with 20 this -- 21 : It should have been passed 22 up. 23 : -- and that is where -. 24 So, for us, I guess -- 25 : Right. EFTA00127951

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 : -- again, and I know that 2 you are probably trying to, you know, hesitate 3 on maybe saying, like, this person did 4 something wrong, but really, who dropped the 5 ball here? Knowing, though, that you could 6 take a look, the day before, all these people 7 are the ones who received the email -- 8 : Right. 9 in custody. And so, I 10 know we see Lieutenant . I'm sure - I'm 11 assuming would be on there. 12 MR. : I think is on there. 13 : Who? 14 : Is on there? 15 MR. : It's just -- 16 : I didn't see 17 MR. maybe. 18 : But again, this one, that 19 one is not even as clear. This one 20 specifically spells out -- 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 : -- this one, you would 23 actually have to go in and look at this 24 prisoner's schedule report. 25 : Okay. Let me just take a EFTA00127952

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 look, just so I have, my mind is clear. There 2 is a prisoner's schedule. The prisoner's 3 schedule literally means prisoner's schedule. 4 : Well, yeah. So, the 5 prisoner's schedule report is something like 6 this, but it will tell you that they are either 7 going to, like, transfer, or they are going to 8 go to court. Whereas this other document that 9 was sent to R&D was just specifically about the 10 transfer. 11 : Okay. But there is nothing 12 that says recreation, personnel care. It's 13 mostly going to and from court, or leaving the 14 institution. 15 : Yeah. Because it's a 16 prisoner's schedule. 17 : Okay. 18 : Report. 19 : Okay. 20 : So, it's, like, what they 21 are scheduled to do. Sorry. Yeah. No. It's 22 not, like, what their daily schedule is. Like, 23 in the institution. 24 : Right. 25 : It's a U.S. Marshal EFTA00127953

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 Service report that they just provided to the 2 BOP, so that they know which inmates 3 : Right. 4 : -- they need to produce, 5 and for what reason. 6 : Okay. Got it. 7 : Now, is that correct? 8 : Yes. 9 : So, yeah. Based upon 10 what you are looking at here, on the 8th, and 11 then again, what we know about at the 12 very least producing, at 8:00, knowing he was 13 WAB, and R&D knowing he was WAB. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : What should have happened 16 there? Like, who, in your opinion here, 17 dropped the ball? 18 : I think at all levels, it 19 was the checks and balance. If it went to the 20 lieutenant's office, somebody should have 21 picked it up. Working in the unit. It should 22 have been passed up to the lieutenant's office. 23 So, there were a couple of safety nets that 24 could have caught it. 25 : So, pretty much everybody EFTA00127954

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 2 3 4 5 6 dropped the ball? : I mean, if we're looking at it like this, if you're saying going by an email being sent around. Well, not only the email, but I mean, the email, I can understand if 7 people are busy and they don't always, you 8 know, this one -- 9 : Right. 10 : -- it would be hard to - 11 that one would be hard to -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- you know, say that you 14 didn't know. This one, I could see maybe, you 15 know, the prisoner's schedule 16 : Well, this one, I don't 17 : -- (Indiscernible 18 *01:48:52). 19 : I mean, I don't know what 20 gets sent out. I know, if this whole thing, I 21 don't know if it gets sent out to the staff. 22 think more 23 : Well, this is -- 24 : -- of a condensed version. 25 : -- this is with this. EFTA00127955

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Right. : So, this was what was 149 3 sent with this. This was sent specifically, 4 just that. It's not a document. That's the 5 body. 6 : Right. That was sent. 7 : But that is, again, R&D. 8 : Right. 9 : But, which again, R&D - 10 we didn't cover this - R&D is outside of 11 custody. Correct? 12 : Right. 13 : But speaking with R&D, 14 they said they would have produced this list, 15 which SHU would have had, as well as ops 16 lieutenant -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : -- the lieutenant's 19 office, all the housing units, which it listed 20 Reyes as WAB. 21 : Right. 22 : Do you know if they are 23 actually looking - like, the lieutenant's 24 office, people in the lieutenant's office, or 25 the ops lieutenant, activities lieutenant - are EFTA00127956

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 they actually look at that list and saying, or 2 that's just based upon the busyness of their 3 day? 4 : Yeah. I wouldn't speculate. 5 I mean, I don't know. I can't say what -- 6 : Okay. 7 : -- lieutenant is looking at 8 stuff. I mean, it's, like, the documents. 9 : No. I mean, but should 10 have they, I guess is the question? 11 : As far as what? Emails that 12 are coming through, on who's leaving? 13 : No, no, no. This would 14 be a physical paper that they were provided. 15 : Right. 16 : Internal would go around 17 and provide everybody with this physical paper 18 that they create, and then, they apparently 19 destroy it at the end of the day. 20 : Right. So, I don't know if 21 the, you know, when internal gets the forms to 22 go, they are dropping it off at different 23 units. So, I don't know if one was passed off 24 to the lieutenant. The lieutenant would - I 25 guess this probably be the only document -- EFTA00127957

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1r. 1 : No, no, no. 2 : -- they tear up. 3 : We are being told, by the 4 lieutenants, as well as -- 5 : Right. 6 : -- by R&D, they all have 7 it, and they all, and it would all - and it 8 would have said WAS. Unfortunately, I haven't 9 found that document to show you this is what 10 I'm referring to. But it's a document they 11 apparently create, which they call the court 12 production list. Are you -- 13 : The court list. 14 : -- yeah. 15 : I've heard of the court 16 list. 17 : But it's like a 18 : And it -. 19 : -- from my understanding, 20 it is an informal document that they are just 21 providing so that, you know, these are the 22 people that we need to produce today. 23 : For internal, yeah. The 24 internal officer goes around and drops them off 25 at every, you know, every unit, like hey, I EFTA00127958

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 need this guy, I need that guy. It's a court 2 list. 3 : Yeah. 4 : In the morning. 5 : Exactly. 6 : So, yeah, that's not 7 anything that's kept on record. 8 : Right. So, I guess the 9 question, though, being that they had these 10 court lists, is another one of these checks and 11 balances? Or is that really just for the 12 Special Housing Unit? 13 : I think they You mean as 14 far as the court list, I don't understand your 15 question, but -- 16 : Yeah. It's just getting 17 back to the point of, like, Reyes left. We 18 were notified on the 8th. He left on the 19 morning of the 9th. 20 : Right. 21 : Epstein was found on the 22 10th. Didn't have a cellmate for 24 hours, and 23 we knew for almost 48 hours. What should have 24 happened, and who didn't do their job? Is 25 really the question. EFTA00127959

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 : And like I said before, when 2 the notification, whoever was on the unit, knew 3 that he was leaving, it should have been passed 4 up to his supervisor. 5 : All right. 6 : This guy is leaving. But 7 then, okay, let's say the supe, or whoever is 8 working in there, doesn't do it, and somebody 9 should have stepped up and said, hey, this guy 10 needs a cellmate. And notified the lieutenant 11 that he needs a cellmate. 12 : And that goes back to my, 13 anyone that was working in the SHU, should have 14 made that notification. 15 : Should have said it. It 16 doesn't just -. Just because you are not OIC, 17 doesn't mean all the responsibilities falls on 18 you. It's everybody's job up there to say, 19 hey, okay, we need to, you know, this is what 20 we need to do. 21 : And would that be the 22 case for, when he left during the day shift 23 : Right. 24 : -- the next shift is the 25 night shift, when he would have - I believe EFTA00127960

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 during the night shift - he would have come 2 back -- 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- and again, if they 5 were doing rounds, they would have noticed that 6 Reyes wasn't there in the first place. But 7 also, certainly, when they brought 8 : Epstein back. 9 : -- Epstein back to his 10 cell. There would have been no cellmate in 11 there. 12 : You should have known he was 13 a cellmate. 14 : And would it be the same 15 thing for the morning shift? That they would 16 know that Epstein was in there alone? 17 : Because if the morning shift 18 is doing their 30-minute checks, you would have 19 realized he was in there by himself. 20 : So, should have every 21 single shift reported it to the ops lieutenant, 22 that there is no one -? 23 : Whoever caught it should 24 have, you know, let's say one shift missed it, 25 the next shift should have picked up and said, EFTA00127961

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 you know, called and said, lieutenant, we got a 2 - this guy needs a -- 3 : A cellmate. 4 : -- a cellmate. 5 : And again, I know we're 6 Monday morning quarterback because of the 7 result here, but what is your - as the warden 8 of the institution, on these days - how do you 9 interpret this? Is this a really significant 10 failure on their part, the not have caught this 11 and passed that information up? 12 : It's not following the 13 directive. I mean, and then, look at result. 14 : Right. 15 : So, I mean, the result is 16 what, you know, caused it to be a serious 17 matter. 18 : Okay. 19 : Yeah. 20 : Now, as far as going back 21 to this memo, do you know why Mr. 22 wrote this memo/ 23 : I forgot. I might have 24 called -. I might have called Lieutenant 25 , and said - and I don't know if he was EFTA00127962

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 working - said, what happened up there? 2 : Now, when you say 3 because he was the ops lieutenant, or are you 4 talking about who was the SHU lieutenant? 5 -: , who was the 6 operations -. Because first, I know when I got 7 back, somebody told me wasn't at work, 8 because that was my first question. Who was 9 the SHU lieutenant? Where they are at. And 10 then, I think I did reach out to and 11 said, what happened up there? 12 : Okay. 13 : And that's when I found that 14 out. 15 : And did you ever speak 16 with either or about this? 17 : No. 18 : Okay. 19 : Because by the time I had 20 gotten it, was the day -. That, I got that the 21 day of, when I had to go up to, I think the 22 U.S. Attorney's Office. 23 : Okay. To speak with them 24 about this? 25 : When I speak up to them, and EFTA00127963

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 them the agent had the memorandum. 2 : He already had it on him? 3 : He had it on him. Because 4 he was during the interrogation, he presented 5 it to the U.S. Attorney that was there. 6 : And was that the first 7 time you had seen it? 8 : No. I think I -. I don't 9 recall when I first saw it, but I know I had 10 gotten it. And I don't know if I had gotten 11 it, and then sent it up to my boss. And then, 12 given it to the IG. I forgot. I forget his 13 name, and who was handling the case. 14 : For the IG? 15 : Yeah. 16 MR. -: 17 : If you weren't giving it 18 to (Indiscernible *01:55:18), it would have 19 been Dave 20 : Because he sat in there with 21 us. 22 : David 23 : So, he - I remember - he had 24 a copy of it. 25 : Okay. EFTA00127964

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 : Because we had told him that 2 they knew that they were supposed to -. 3 : So, not including when 4 you were speaking with the OIG and the FBI, did 5 you discuss this at all with anyone from the 6 BOP, such as or 7 : No. I just got the 8 memorandum, and that was it. Because I was, 9 like, wanting to know, like, what happened. 10 The, you know, the directives were given. What 11 happened? 12 : And when you asked what 13 happened, was there a verbal response? 14 : It was a verbal response. 15 : And what did you -? What 16 were you told? 17 : That they knew he was 18 supposed to -. That had passed it on 19 to other individuals about it. 20 : Now, do you think that 21 that -. What is your thought process of 22 who is the one who actually presented 23 - excuse me - Reyes to R&D and WAB, what is 24 your thought of him now saying, you know, prior 25 to the end of my shift at 2:00 p.m., I passed EFTA00127965

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 it on to the next guy, saying that you guys got 2 to do it. 3 : Now -- 4 : Do you think he should 5 have done it, passed the infraction on during 6 his shift? 7 : Yeah. Absolutely. It 8 should have been letting the lieutenant know. 9 : Uh-huh. 10 : That, hey, this is - we got 11 a guy that needs to be -- 12 : A cellmate. 13 : -- that needs a cellmate. 14 MR. : I should clarify that. 15 : What? 16 MR. : I think on the elevator was 17 Monge. 18 : Right. 19 MR. Monge was escorting Reyes 20 down to R&D. And was escorting 21 Epstein over to attorney conference. They just 22 happened to cross paths, I think -- 23 : Yeah, they were together, 24 though. Right? 25 MR. : -- yeah, but I think Monge is EFTA00127966

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 the one that brought him down to the - Reyes 2 down to R&D. 3 : Then that would make sense. 4 Because if Monge is internal, internal takes 5 him to court. 6 : Okay. 7 : And then, if somebody is 8 going to R&D, I mean, to attorney visit, then 9 it would be SHU staff taking him. 10 : All right. So, if Monge 11 is the one who is actually providing him to 12 R&D, did he have a responsibility, that if he 13 was WAB, to make any notifications? 14 : I don't know if internal -. 15 You know, Monge was internal, and I don't know 16 if he knew, you know, the situation. 17 : And typically, would it 18 be internals job - if they come and collect 19 somebody as WAB - would it be their job to tell 20 control, or the ops lieutenant, to say this guy 21 is off our books, or anything, or -? 22 : No. Because we have a lot 23 of inmates that move in and out. 24 : Sure. 25 : So, he wouldn't be able to EFTA00127967

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 keep track of every particular inmate that is 2 going and coming. 3 : Okay. Basically, 4 everyone had a share of responsibility? 5 : (Indiscernible *01:57:54). 6 : All right. Before we 7 belabor this thing anymore, we want to just 8 initial and date these both documents. We can 9 get them out of your way and move on. 10 : All of them? 11 : Oh, yeah. Top of this, 12 top of this. 13 : Okay. 14 : This guy. You know, this 15 one. All right. 16 MR. : Let me take this. 17 : Thank you, sir. Now, 18 prior to this meeting, did you know that Reyes 19 was actually transferred at MCC, and didn't go 20 to court? 21 : Wait, prior to when? 22 : This meeting. 23 : Oh, no. I knew he -. 24 heard that. You know? After his death, that 25 he was -- EFTA00127968

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Transferred. 2 -- removed. That he was 3 transferred. 4 : Okay. 5 : When I came in on Saturday. 6 : Were you required - or I 7 mean - were you aware that the Marshal Service 8 had sent those emails on August 8th, 2019? 9 : I was not aware. 10 : No? Well, did anyone 11 ever, prior to August 10th, did anyone ever 12 make you aware that Reyes was transferred from 13 the institution? 14 : Prior to October 10th? 15 : August 10th. 2019. 16 : I found out when I came in 17 that morning, because I -- 18 : Okay. 19 : -- was, like, where is 20 cellmate? 21 : Okay. So, you didn't 22 know that he didn't have a cellmate on August 23 9th? 24 : No, I did not. 25 : Now, who was ultimately 162 EFTA00127969

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 responsible to make sure that Epstein has celimate? : I mean, if it's the directive that is given out, I mean, whoever is working decide - passes it up, and then, that ensures, you know, to make sure he has a celimate. So -. : So, SHU staff. : Whoever was working up there. Okay. When you say working up there, does that include, like, lieutenants doing lieutenant rounds and things like that? Or -? : Well, yeah, from what transpired, it is obvious the lieutenants didn't know. I mean, they knew he was, based on the email that, you know, they knew he was leaving, but as far as when the finality of it was, when you realize, okay, Reyes is gone. You take Epstein, you bring him back up in his cell, and he doesn't have a cellmate. I mean, something should have went off on somebody to make some notifications. Okay. I know we're going EFTA00127970

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 to talk about counts. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 : Wait, wait. The notification. 5 Would that go up as high as you? If someone 6 would say? 7 : They would send it up to the 8 lieutenants, then they would tell the captain. 9 And the captain would let the associate warden 10 know, and then it would get up to me. 11 : Especially an instance 12 since you have a say in who -- 13 : Right. 14 • gotcha. 15 : We would have to sit down 16 and say, okay, of all the available individuals 17 that are on the unit now, who can we house 18 Epstein with? 19 : Now, what about in the 20 this case, where as you actually weren't 21 working that day, would that -- 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : -- should have they 24 called you -- 25 : Yeah. Whoever is -- EFTA00127971

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 : -- on the -? 2 -- whoever was the acting 3 warden. 4 : That would make the 5 determination? 6 : She would have made the 7 determination to. 8 : Who was the acting warden 9 that day, do you know? 10 : I don't know if I left 11 or in -- 12 : Okay. 13 -- as the acting. 14 : One of those two. 15 : It would be one of those 16 two. 17 : And it wouldn't be the 18 19 : No. He's the executive 20 assistance. 21 : Now, what is the 22 difference between, like, an executive 23 assistance and an AW? 24 : The associate warden is a 25 GS-14, and the executive assistant is a 13. EFTA00127972

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 : Okay. So, they are not - 2 3 : No. 4 : -- but what, is that 5 executive assistant just mainly to assist you 6 in your functions? 7 : He assists in the functions. 8 I had also given him some other departments to 9 monitor. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : So, they manage, also, those 12 other departments. 13 : Okay. 14 MR. : I just got a question. I 15 don't know if you may be asked him about the 16 backup list. Was there a backup list of names? 17 : For? 18 : I think, I think we did 19 talk about it, but if Reyes - we did 20 MR. : Okay. 21 : -- but -- 22 MR. : Sorry. 23 : -- when we talked about 24 if Reyes was removed because the institution 25 always has people coming and going -- EFTA00127973

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Mm-hmm. : -- so frequently, was 3 there, like, a list that was set in place, that 4 we would now consider these people, or would it 5 be just the whole new -? 6 : No. Because we would have 7 to base it on who was there. 8 : Okay. 9 : Because of the turnover in 10 the unit. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 : All right. Now, we're 13 going to get into counts. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : So, this is an email sent 16 from you to . It's the count slips 17 for -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- it was sent on 20 Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 5:11 p.m. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : This shows, ZA is the 23 SHU. Correct? 24 : Right. 25 : So, this says, at 8:10, EFTA00127974

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 it shows that the count for ZA was 73. Signed 2 by M. and Ms. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : And it says, that count 5 was done, it looks like, at -- 6 : 12:01 a.m. 7 : -- 12:01 a.m. And then, 8 we get the next one is at 3:00 a.m. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : It goes down to 72. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : At 5:00 a.m., there is 13 72. And here is the count, the institutional 14 count, it shows 72 at - what time? - 12:00 a.m. 15 Or no. This one is 3:00 a.m. 16 : 3:00 a.m. 17 : I don't know why this is 18 all out of order. 5:00 a.m. So, at 12:00 19 a.m., this says 72. 72. 20 MR. : I think that was just an -- 21 : 72. 22 MR. : -- attachment to that email 23 that you sent. 24 : So, but as you know, as 25 you notice, one of them said -. So, the count EFTA00127975

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 slip said 73 for 12:00 a.m., over the 2 institutional count. And as you see here, for 3 12:00 a.m., it said 72. 4 : By the institution, you mean 5 the SHU? 6 : No. The institution. 7 : It means the whole. 8 : MCC does a count -- 9 : Yeah. 10 : -- and -- 11 : Right. 12 : -- its' what the official 13 14 : The count. 15 : -- number show 16 : Yeah. Okay. 17 : -- the SHU, these count 18 slips are supposed to be the -. Actually, let 19 you, you can answer my question. What is 20 supposed to be the difference between what 21 happens with the count slip, and what happens 22 with the institutional count? So, I'm not 23 answering your question. 24 : So, what happens is, on the 25 shift, you call the count, and the different EFTA00127976

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 units call in the count to control center. 2 : And how do they get that 3 count number? 4 : From counting. They have to 5 go around and count. 6 : Physically counting an 7 inmate? 8 : You have to -- 9 : Correct? 10 : -- physically count the 11 bodies. 12 : And then, they take that 13 total amount of inmates, and they call that 14 into the control center? 15 : They call that into the 16 control. 17 : And where does the 18 control center get their numbers from? 19 : This is what is called an 20 El. Which is a print out of the number of 21 inmates in each unit. 22 : Right. 23 : So, if an instance, for 24 example, we look at BA unit. So, there is 25 supposed to be 26 in there. If somebody calls EFTA00127977

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 171 1 it in there, they say, it says 25, they tell me 2 it's a bad count. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : So, they have to go back and 5 count again. 6 : So, the El is created 7 based upon what inmates are listed within your 8 system. 9 : Right. 10 : The count slips are based 11 upon how many inmates they actually count. 12 : What they count. 13 : And the purpose of that 14 is what? Why are the inmates counting inmates, 15 and why are they providing that number to 16 control? 17 : So, we make sure every 18 inmate is in the institution. 19 : The countability of the 20 inmates. Correct? 21 : Yes. 22 : Great. So, the - so, 23 does that answer your question? 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 : So, the next email is EFTA00127978

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 sent about one hour later, at 6:13 p.m., or 2 August 10th. It says, "Why did the count 3 change from 73 to 72 between 12:00 a.m. and 4 3:00 a.m.?" 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : Do you remember what your 7 response was to that? 8 : I don't. 9 : And then, this one is 10 another one from Ray to yourself. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : It says, "The 12:00 a.m. 13 count slip reads 73, and the 12:00 a.m. 14 : El. 15 : -- El says 72." 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : So, those kind of go 18 together. Do you remember what your findings 19 were there? 20 : I don't remember. Because 21 typically what happens on the count, you are 22 supposed to - the lieutenant is supposed to 23 take one count at night, and then review 24 documentation. So, I don't know what happened 25 with the discrepancy. EFTA00127979

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 1 : I mean, this isn't really that 2 relevant, because we noted Epstein was there. 3 : No. It's relevant for 4 our investigation. 5 : Right. 6 : All right. So, if you 7 don't mind, just initialing and dating that, 8 and then, we can explain to you why that is 9 relevant. So, you don't, though, recall? You 10 didn't find out what actually happened? 11 : I don't recall what the 12 response is I gave. 13 : No? And do you remember 14 looking into it at all? 15 : When was that sent? 16 : That was the day -- 17 : When did he send it? 18 : -- that was the day of. 19 : The day of. 20 : The day Epstein was 21 found. 22 : I don't because it was just 23 so much going on. 24 : Yeah. 25 : That I can't really remember EFTA00127980

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 what, how I responded to them on that day. 2 : Do you remember learning 3 anything about the accuracy or inaccuracy of 4 the counts, on the 9th and 10th? 5 : What do you mean the 6 accuracy and inaccuracy? 7 : Like, if the counts were 8 actually accurate or not. 9 : I don't recall that. 10 : You don't recall -- 11 : No. I can't think of that. 12 : -- finding out about 13 that? 14 : No. 15 : Did you recall, did you 16 find out if the SHU counts and rounds were not 17 conducted by the SHU on August 9th or 10th, 18 2019? By the SHU staff. 19 : If they did rounds or not? 20 : Correct. Did you find 21 out if the SHU staff had conducted both 30- 22 minutes rounds, as well as the institution 23 counts on August 9th and 10th? 24 : I don't know if it was after 25 the fact that I was told that the Officer did EFTA00127981

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 make their rounds. And I don't recall if it 2 was, they put it in the logbook, that they made 3 rounds, but that in all actuality, it wasn't 4 done. 5 : Okay. 6 : So, that might have been 7 something that came up afterwards. 8 : But you are not super -. 9 You know, this, you don't really know what 10 happened or didn't happen? 11 : That day. Because I mean, 12 it happened that weekend, everything was 13 moving, and then, by Monday -- 14 : Right. So 15 everything lese just 16 changed. So -- 17 : -- but on the 10th or 18 11th, you didn't hear -- 19 : I didn't -- 20 : -- find out? 21 : -- hear anything about, 22 recall anything about that. 23 : But had you heard that 24 they didn't at least conduct some of their 25 rounds and counts? EFTA00127982

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : That they didn't? : That they did not. 176 3 : It was - and I don't want to 4 use the word that it was just, you know, an 5 assumption, you know, like, because one of 6 them, I had asked to come up and speak with, 7 but it was , and he wouldn't come up. 8 : And this was on the 10th 9 in the morning? 10 : This was on the 10th, when 11 we got him up, because I wanted to speak with 12 him because people were telling me he was 13 distraught. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : So, I wanted to make sure he 16 was all right. You know? And he just, he 17 didn't want to come up and talk. 18 : What are your thoughts of 19 as an employee? 20 : I've known a couple 21 years. I never had any issues with him. You 22 know, it was any, you know, like any other 23 employee, you do something, I correct you on 24 the spot, and that's it. But I have never 25 encountered him to do anything, known him not EFTA00127983

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 to count, do his job, you know? 2 : What about Ms. 3 : She was new. So, she had 4 just gotten there. You know, she got the same 5 spiel from me that everybody else does. You 6 know? You are new. You can't do the things 7 that somebody at 20, that has 20 years in it. 8 They're not doing their job, you shouldn't be 9 following it. 10 : And did you -- 11 : So -. 12 : -- actually speak with 13 her about that? 14 : Oh, I do that in my 15 (Indiscernible *02:09:22) class, when they 16 first come in. 17 : Okay. So, that is 18 something -- 19 : And I had -. 20 : -- you would have said to 21 everyone? 22 : Oh, I said it clear as day. 23 And same thing I would say in my ART class. 24 Annual Refresher Training. 25 : Because this is -- EFTA00127984

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 : (Indiscernible *02:09:34). 2 -- one of her excuses, 3 saying that 20 year guys, I'm following them, 4 they are not doing it, so I'm not doing it. Is 5 that something you clearly entrust -- 6 : So, here's my speech 7 : -- to her? 8 : -- my spiel I used to tell 9 people. I said, go ahead and follow that 20 10 year guy, and you are on probation, guess what 11 happens? He might get some time in the street. 12 You're getting fired. 13 : And are you confident 14 that Ms. would have heard that speech from 15 you? 16 : She heard the speech from 17 me. 18 : Okay. 19 : Yeah. I'm confident. 20 That's the speech I gave everybody. Same thing 21 in the ART. 22 : Okay. 23 : Yeah. 24 : Good enough. 25 : So. EFTA00127985

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 : All right. So, this is 2 going to go back. This is just my little list 3 that I wrote of exactly what happened, and then 4 I'll read to you, but -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : I just want just for 7 our purposes, I'm going to just show you, and 8 you can refer to them. On this one, at first, 9 going to be the count on the 9th, that was 10 conducted at -- 11 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 12 : -- is this 4:00 p.m. Is 13 this the 4:00 p.m. or the 5:00 p.m. here? 14 : No. This? 15 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 16 : 4:00 p.m. count. There's 17 just signed off -- 18 : No. There's no 4:00 p.m. 19 count. 20 : -- yeah, it's the 5:00. 21 MR. : 5:00. Sorry. 22 : Yeah. It's -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- 12:00. 12:00. 3:00. 25 And 5:00. EFTA00127986

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. 2 3 Friday. 4 : : 180 No, no. This is afternoon. : Yeah. So, this is I'd say (Indiscernible 5 *02:10:40)-- 6 : All right. Friday. Is 7 that a -- 8 : -- (Indiscernible *02:10:41) 9 : -- 4:00 p.m. -- 10 MR. : You told him about overnight. 11 : -- count? 12 : Oh, it's a 4:00 p.m. count. 13 MR. : It's a 4:00 p.m. 14 : Yeah. 15 : Okay. 16 : Then 4:00 p.m. Then 17 there is the 8:00 p.m. 18 MR. : No, no. 4:00 p.m. 10:00. 19 : 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 20 Sorry. 21 MR. : And midnight. 22 : 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 23 Midnight. 24 MR. : 3:00 and 5:00. 25 : 3:00. And 5:00. So, EFTA00127987

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 these are basically the time period in 2 question. Everywhere from 4:00 p.m. through 3 the 5:00 a.m. count the next day, on August 9th 4 and 10th. 5 : Okay. 6 : Here are the lieutenant 7 logs. And these are the emails that, again, 8 I'm going, just going over these just because, 9 so I'm not blowing things out of thin air. 10 These are the -- 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : -- yeah, emails that we 13 were able to obtain. So, this was from a 14 . Who was the ops 15 lieutenant at that time. 16 : Right. 17 : Fairly regularly. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : And during the morning 20 watch. So, this one was sent, from her, on 21 Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. It 22 says, these are the August 10th, 2019. Daily 23 activity report. And then, we got the daily 24 lieutenant's log here. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00127988

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 : So, where would this -? 2 This is just out of order. This should have 3 been first. So, Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 4 sends one at -. So, first, I want to ask this 5 question. So, on Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 6 sends one at 5:11 a.m. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : And Saturday, she sends 9 it at August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : And on Sunday, August 12 11th, 2019, she sends it at 6:15 a.m. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Now, reviewing all of the 15 lieutenant logs that came out prior to that 16 time, they are all sent out pretty much between 17 5:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- by all the various -- 20 : Right. 21 ops lieutenants. Do 22 you find it odd that she didn't send this one 23 out until 9:26 a.m., being that, I know Epstein 24 was found at 6:33 a.m., but typically, they 25 were sent out much earlier than that. EFTA00127989

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Mrn-hmm. : Is that -? I know she 183 3 sent it out after the incident, and after, you 4 know, everything happened, but do you think it 5 was weird that she sent that one out at 9:26 6 a.m. versus prior to that 6:33 a.m., when her 7 shift ends at 6:00 a.m.? 8 : I mean 9 MR. : She was relieved at 5:30 a.m. 10 by Lieutenant 11 : That's what I'm saying. She 12 wasn't at the -. When I got there, Lieutenant 13 was the lieutenant -- 14 : Correct. 15 : -- who contacted me 16 regarding -. 17 : She was supposed to be 18 gone by 5:30 a.m. 19 : So, yeah. I don't know. If 20 she left at 5:30 or whatever, and I don't know 21 how they (Indiscernible *02:13:07). 22 : Well, that's when she was 23 relieved. She didn't leave until after this 24 was sent out at 9:26 a.m. 25 : I don't recall her being in EFTA00127990

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 the institution around then. 2 : She - after Epstein was 3 found - she actually went into the SHU. She 4 helped with feeding. And then, she went back, 5 and she did some things on the computer. 6 : I thought -- 7 : And she sent it. 8 : I thought relieved 9 her, and she left. 10 : At 5:30 a.m., she was 11 relieved. She stuck around because she said 12 she had work to do. After Epstein was found, 13 she came to the SHU, and assisted 14 , who also wasn't working in the SHU, but 15 was there because he was the Comtech guy. And, 16 at the time, was gone. was there. 17 But at some point, left. 18 : And I'm looking at this, but 19 I was under the impression, when had told 20 me he had relieved her, and she left. 21 : So, do you find that odd, 22 then, that she was still there until -- 23 : Until 9:30. 24 at least 9:30 a.m.? 25 : Yeah. I didn't, I didn't EFTA00127991

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 Yeah. 2 : This is the first you're 3 hearing of this? 4 : Yeah. Because when I was 5 told she was gone. So, unless -- 6 : Because you wanted to 7 talk with her? 8 : -- no. I mean, he relieved 9 her. So, I guess, technically, when you 10 relieve somebody, then it becomes your issue. 11 So, I was talking to Lieutenant . But I 12 didn't want, you know, I assumed she was the 13 one that -. But I heard she had left. I 14 didn't know she had come back. 15 : She allegedly did not 16 come back. She allegedly was there 17 : There. 18 : -- the entire time. 19 : So then, that is kind of 20 odd, because usually, your log is completed 21 before you leave. 22 : Right. 23 : On your log, you will write 24 on there, relieved by such and such. 25 : So, is that suspicious to EFTA00127992

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 you at all? 2 : Kind of. Yeah. But I'm 3 curious as to why you didn't log it down 4 something. 5 : Now, why -? What kind of 6 employee is 7 : Had some issues with her. I 8 mean, I don't want to -. You know, everything 9 that is going on is an allegation. So, I don't 10 want to go speaking on allegations that I have 11 sent up. 12 : Was she a problem 13 employee, then? 14 : I had some issues. Yeah. 15 : Any reason why she 16 believed that she might be involved with 17 Epstein and his death? 18 : Oh, no. I wouldn't put it 19 as far as that. I mean, but it is just, I 20 wouldn't. And I don't know -- 21 : She's (Indiscernible 22 *02:15:29) to tell. I mean -- 23 : I mean -- 24 : -- (Indiscernible *02:15:29). 25 : -- that's why I went over -. EFTA00127993

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 Can you rephrase your question, like, what are 2 we saying? 3 : Yeah. I mean, I'm going 4 all the way to -. I just ramped it up to 100 5 miles an hour. I'm just saying all the way to 6 7 : I can't -- 8 : -- to probably, could you 9 -. Was there any reason to believe that she 10 could be potentially involved with this? 11 : As far as doing harm to him? 12 : Keeping his cell door 13 open. And letting another cell door open for 14 someone else. You know -- 15 : I wouldn't -- 16 : -- anything like that. 17 : I wouldn't see that. 18 : No? 19 : I couldn't see that. No. 20 : No reason to believe it 21 would go that far, just maybe insubordination 22 is the highest that she goes? 23 : Yeah. I would, you know, 24 25 : She -- EFTA00127994

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 : -- she has the allegations 2 up. I know you guys were seeing the 3 allegations. So, I, yeah, but I wouldn't go 4 that far. But I can't -. 5 : Well, is she in a position to 6 do something like that? 7 : What? 8 : To leave the door open, or 9 something that's egregious? 10 : She does lieutenant 11 rounds. 12 : Yeah. 13 : She's the ops lieutenant. 14 : She is in position to do that. 15 : But remember, when you are 16 going down range and the range door keys, you 17 can't have both. Somebody would have to let 18 her down there. 19 : Okay. 20 : And those keys. Those keys 21 go down. 22 : Do you know if she was 23 particularly friendly with either or 24 25 : I don't know what their EFTA00127995

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 relationship was. She was the shift 2 lieutenant. So, I don't know what 3 relationships. Who she's had (Indiscernible 4 *02:16:48). 5 MR. : For the 8th, I just realized 6 we might not have the daily log for it. 7 : Fortunately, I brought 8 backups of different things. So, I think I got 9 10 : Jesus Christ. 11 MR. : The 9th and the 10th is in 12 there. 13 : I keep looking at this pile. 14 I think those eff'ing sons a bitches are 15 working hard. 16 : I don't think the 9th is 17 in there. 18 : Yeah. 19 : Just the 10th. 20 : Yeah. 21 MR. : No, no. It's the second set. 22 : No, that's the 10th. 23 MR. : No, the dates are 24 : Can I say -? 25 MR. : -- the following dates. EFTA00127996

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 Sorry. 2 : Can I see the time 3 (Indiscernible *02:17:14)? 4 MR. : Just, I just want to confirm 5 with that. 6 : Of course. Yeah, yeah. 7 Okay. That's the August 9th. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 : Okay. Great. 10 MR. : So, those two. 11 : Yeah. 12 MR. : That's the previous date we 13 don't have. 14 : All right. 15 (Indiscernible *02:17:25) right now. All 16 right. So, what did you want to see? 17 : I wanted to see that 9:26 18 one. 19 : Yeah. So, that is -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : -- and this is what we 22 were going to show you, is the count numbers, 23 that's what we are getting at next. 24 : Wait. Which is the one -? 25 : So, this is from Friday, EFTA00127997

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 August 9th. 2 : Okay. This is at what time? 3 MR. : This just, that says morning 4 watch. 5 : Ish. 6 : Yeah, but why is it saying 7 the 10th? 8 MR. : So, it was, the email was 9 sent out on the 10th morning. Right? But when 10 11 : So, she was -. Her -- 12 MR. : -- she included everything - 13 14 : -- shift -- 15 MR. : -- everything from the 16 previous day. 17 : Yeah, but this is August 18 9th. 19 : They sent it out the day 20 after. 21 : Epstein is back. 22 : So, see this one? This 23 one is sent out on Sunday, August 11th, for the 24 day prior, starting -- 25 : Right. So -- EFTA00127998

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 : -- Saturday, August 10th. 2 no, I get that. So, she 3 started. Her shift was morning watch on 4 Friday. Okay? So, she goes to 12:00. So, she 5 is relieved by Lieutenant 6 MR. : So, no, no. 7 : No, this is This should 8 be Thursday into Friday. 9 MR. : Yes. 10 : Okay. No. I -- 11 MR. : So then, it goes 12 : -- yeah. See. I thought 13 this was -- 14 MR. -- into day watch. 15 : -- the day of. Then you go 16 to day watch, and it goes to evening watch. 17 Now, what is the -? Which log is it for the 18 day of? 19 : So, this is the day of. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 : Okay. 22 : And this is, we are going 23 to get into. So, this one is the day before, 24 August 9th, when Reyes left, and we can look to 25 see on here, as well, where it says -. So, if EFTA00127999

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 we go to this 8:38 on the lieutenant's log, it 2 says that Reyes is pre-removed. Right here. 3 "Reyes to pre-remove at 8:38 a.m." 4 : Okay. So -- 5 : That is August 9th, 2019. 6 So, we're going to go all the way down to 7 The one thing, I guess -- 8 MR. : So, the count -- 9 : -- we want to look at is, 10 here, we got this individual, lam Fernandez 11 (Phonetic Sp. *02:19:31). Who is on dry cell 12 with staff in R&D watch. 13 : Right. 14 : From the SHU. So, if you 15 look at the count -. Where the heck is the -? 16 : Okay. So, I just want to go 17 back to clarify something with -- 18 : Yup. 19 : -- with Lieutenant 20 So, we are saying this is at 9:23, she did it. 21 Right? 22 : 9:26. 23 : So - 9:26 -- 24 : She did it. 25 : -- this was on EFTA00128000

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 MR. : The 10th morning. Saturday 2 morning. 3 : -- this is when she sent it 4 out. 5 : Correct. Like, three 6 hours after Epstein was found. 7 : And this is 8 : (Indiscernible 9 *02:20:03). 10 : -- Friday's log. 11 : Correct. 12 : That that's -. 13 : But they - the same 14 thing, though - they all seem to sending it out 15 the day before. 16 : The day before. And then, 17 she sent the day before logs out on Saturday. 18 Yeah. 19 MR. : She combined it. If you look 20 through it, it has everything combined. 21 : Right. 22 MR. : It goes from morning watch, 23 day watch, evening watch, into 24 : Right. But I'm just -. 25 That should have been done the day before. EFTA00128001

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 Okay. 2 : I don't think you're 3 right, bud. I think she's just doing the 9th. 4 The next day does the 10th. 5 : Yeah. That's right. 6 MR. : Yeah. Okay. 7 : (Indiscernible *02:20:41) 8 combined. 9 : Yeah. That's what -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : -- that's why I'm a little 12 confused about. 13 : Yeah. No. She's not -- 14 MR. : Because when she came 15 : -- she does the day 16 before. 17 MR. : -- she came on shift at 10:00 18 p.m. 19 : She started her shift at 20 10:00 -- 21 MR. : 10:00 p.m. 22 : -- p.m. 23 MR. : Of the 9th -- 24 : And worked until -- 25 MR. : -- evening. EFTA00128002

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 : -- 6:00 a.m., but got 2 relieved at 5:30. So -- 3 : That's right. 4 : -- yeah. 5 : The lieutenants were working 6 from 10:00. 10:00 to 6:00. 7 : Correct. Because the, we 8 were told because of traffic issues -- 9 : Yeah. 10 : -- or something else. 11 : And short -. Yeah. 12 : So, what we want to, and 13 I want to kind of reference here is, Iam 14 Fernandez on dry cell, with SHU staff and R&D. 15 : Right. 16 : And the end of this shows 17 72. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : So, on August 9th, 2019, 20 at 11:59 a.m. - or August 10th, 2019, at 12:00 21 a.m. - there is supposed to be 72 inmates, 22 according to this log that sent 23 out. 24 : Right. 25 : There is supposed to only EFTA00128003

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 '- 1 be 72 inmates there. 2 : Right. 3 : Now, look at the shift 4 for August 10th, when this person started their 5 shift, there was 73. 6 : So -- 7 : And the institutional 8 logs -- 9 right. 10 : -- show at 12:00 a.m., 11 there were - or so, that looks like - so, there 12 is -. Let's go. So, for ZA, there shows 75 at 13 the 4:00 p.m. count. The 10:00 p.m. count, 14 there shows 73. And then, at the midnight 15 count, there it says 72. However, the count 16 slips, if you recall 17 MR. : 73. 18 : -- where are the count 19 slips? So, it is -- 20 MR. : The counts. 21 : -- it says the SHU 22 submitted a count slip for 73 at 12:00 a.m. 23 Here you go. So, that is not the count. Oh, 24 yeah. There. So, see? 12:00 a.m., they 25 submit it. submitted 73. EFTA00128004

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 Although, the institutional count says 72. 2 Now, not , but the next one 3 shows that, the next ops lieutenant shows that 4 73 is what is written in this. She went back 5 and changed 72, the day before, with the 9:30, 6 because it was determined -- 7 : That he was on the outcount, 8 and on -- 9 : -- oh, yeah. 10 -- (Indiscernible 11 *02:22:57). 12 : And so, Fernandez was 13 never removed -. So, look at -. It shows it 14 on this. "One SHU correction. Fernandez dry 15 cell." So, at 12:35 a.m., and we do have 16 Fernandez right here. 17 MR. : Looking back. 18 : Okay. So, this just 19 says, this is what happened with him. He was 20 found to have contraband, that he was providing 21 to a visitor in the SHU, at approximately, 22 like, I think 1:00 p.m. on August 9th. He was 23 moved from the SHU to dry cell. And he was 24 never -- 25 : Keyed in. EFTA00128005

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 : -- keyed out. 2 : What - yeah - what they 3 should -- 4 : Keyed out of the SHU. 5 So, the institutional counts were reflecting -- 6 : 73. 7 : -- 73. That is what the 8 SHU continued reporting. 73. Because that is 9 what - that's what, according to the system, 10 was supposed to be in there. But if they had 11 physically -- 12 : Counted. 13 : -- counted -- 14 : They would have known -- 15 : -- it would have 16 : -- he wasn't there. 17 : -- been 72. Correct? 18 : Right. 19 : So, with this 20 information, and I guess as the warden, would 21 that suggest to you that they were not actually 22 conducting their counts? 23 : They weren't counting. And 24 then, there is no count slip here for the 25 inmate that was on dry cell in R&D. EFTA00128006

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Right. : There should have been a 200 3 count slip for him over there. So, what should 4 have happened was, the inmate - him - he should 5 have been outcounted in R&D. And then, the 6 R&D, you would have seen one. So, there was a 7 count slip. Whoever is sitting and watching 8 him should have did a count slip on him. And 9 then, whoever his back up was should have done 10 a count slip. 11 : And this is, from my 12 review of everything -- 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : -- this is what I found. 15 I don't want to put my words into 16 mouth, but let me know if this makes sense to 17 you. It says, "Count discrepancy on the August 18 9th, 2019. Per the daily activity report dated 19 August 10th, 2019, and the attachment 20 lieutenant log from August 9th, 2019." So, 21 that's what we are looking at here. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : "The day began with 77 24 inmates assigned to ZA." Or the SHU. "The 25 5:00 a.m. El institution count, respective ZA EFTA00128007