LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 401 1 conveyed the information to him, that should 2 have been put on the 292. 3 MR. : So, either -- 4 MR. : By the lieutenant. 5 MR. : -- the SHU lieutenant or 6 the OIC. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : Now, when you say the 9 OIC, does one OIC of one shift take more 10 responsibility than another? 11 MR. : No. They are all on the 12 same shift. So, it would depend on -- 13 MR. : So, like, for instance, 14 was the OIC on the day watch, but -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : I think was the 17 OIC on the night watch. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : So, would one of them had 20 more of a responsibility to do this than 21 another? 22 MR. : No. But that should have 23 been done on the initial, when the directive 24 was put out. 25 MR. : So, from Doctor, or Ms. EFTA00119419

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 402 1 saying that here's coming off of 2 psychological observation, he needs to be 3 housed with a cellmate -- 4 MR. : Right. That would have been 5 6 MR. : -- on July 30th. 7 MR. : -- put out, and then, when - 8 9 MR. : So, who, at that time, 10 should have noted that in his file? 11 MR. : Well, you would probably 12 have to find out from the captain who he 13 directed to -- 14 MR. : Well, the captain 15 MR. : -- to doing that. 16 MR. : -- according to his, you 17 know, his memo that he sent to you -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- it says that he 20 specifically had these conversations on 21 multiple occasions, with -- 22 MR. : The SHU -- 23 MR. : -- Lieutenant 24 MR. : -- right. So, it would have 25 been the SHU lieutenant. Whichever one he had. EFTA00119420

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 403 1 If was the one, then would have been 2 the one. But -- 3 MR. : Okay. "August 9th, 2019. 4 8:00 a.m. Inmate Reyes, the cellmate, departs 5 for court." 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : Again, this claims court, 8 but if they are seeing WAB. Actually, you know 9 what? I heard WAB was specific to MCC. Is 10 that correct? 11 MR. : Other institutions will tell 12 you pack up your inmates with all belongings. 13 That's, you know 14 MR. : Because even -- 15 MR. what it is. 16 MR. on their findings, 17 they are showing that he departed for court. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Although, all the 20 documentation we showed says WAB. 21 MR. : WAB. 22 MR. : And transferred. 23 MR. : Yeah. And it says -- 24 MR. : So, even on here, they 25 are getting this wrong? EFTA00119421

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 404 1 MR. : And that's what the whole 2 confusion is, is the assumption that he was 3 going to court -- 4 MR. : Because then it says -- 5 MR. : -- when you look at the 6 document -- 7 MR. : -- so -- 8 MR. : -- go ahead. 9 MR. : -- yeah, and then, it 10 says, "Inmate Reyes does not return to the 11 institution." 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : So, and this was when a 14 lot of things, when we were first starting this 15 investigation, we heard was court, court, 16 didn't return from court. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : And then, when we 19 actually looked through the record, we were, 20 like -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- court. It's -. 23 MR. : I think people thought, 24 without looking at the documentation, that he 25 went to court and got released from court. EFTA00119422

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 405 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So. 3 MR. : So then, I'm just going 4 to read the question. If the documents list 5 Reyes as being WAB, and if they had the 6 transfer list, why did they say he went to 7 court and did not return? 8 MR. : I can't answer that. 9 MR. : Okay. "7:00 p.m. 10 Epstein was provided a social call by the 11 institutional duty officer." Does that mean 12 13 MR. : Yeah. He was the duty 14 officer at that time, I believe. 15 MR. : And what does the 16 institutional duty officer mean? 17 MR. : So, what the duty officer 18 is, is after hours, they walk around and, you 19 know, report emergencies, you know -. 20 MR. : Is that, like, the 21 highest ranking official there? 22 MR. : That comes on at night. You 23 know, there with the lieutenants. But they 24 just make sure that if we had any issues, you 25 know, addressing inmate issues, stuff like EFTA00119423

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that. 2 MR. : So, they are kind of, 3 like, the, basically the OIC for the 4 institution? 5 MR. : Kind of. I wouldn't say the 6 OIC, but you know, senior staff around. 7 MR. : Okay. "This call was 8 done on an unmonitored line. It is extremely 9 concerning why this call would have been 10 placed, and why it would be done on an 11 unmonitored line. Without further interviews, 12 it is not possible to determine the reason for 13 this call." Just, why does it say, "extremely 14 concerning"? 15 MR. : I don't know. Both are 16 report -- 17 MR. : But I mean, do you also 18 find it extremely concerning? Would you 19 classify it as extremely concerning? 20 MR. : I mean, it would be -. 21 mean, that the choice of words that they use. 22 So, I wouldn't, you know, necessarily say, use 23 the word extremely concerning. But I would 24 think, I would -- 25 MR. : It's certainly wrong. EFTA00119424

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 407 1 2 3 4 extremely concerning. 5 MR. : Okay. "On August 9th, 6 2019, during a shift change in SHU, the SHU 7 number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., officer 8 briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 relief, and the 9 other two, 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. officers, 10 with the likelihood inmate Reyes would not be 11 returning, and inmate Epstein would require a 12 cellmate upon return from an attorney visit. 13 Inmate Epstein was not placed with a cellmate 14 upon his return to SHU." My question to you 15 is, just, how did they know this information? 16 How would they have obtained that information? 17 Do you know? 18 MR. : I don't know. Like I said, 19 I don't know who they spoke to during this 20 after action. 21 MR. : Were they doing 22 interviews, though? 23 MR. : I wasn't there. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- it would be -- MR. : But -. MR. : -- it was an issue. But EFTA00119425

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Were they authorized, 2 though, if OIG and FBI are doing an 3 investigation, is the after action team 4 authorized to come in and interview people? 5 MR. : So, I've done after actions. 6 And there is a point where you come to it, 7 where you, if it's an OIG or FBI investigation, 8 that I can't. I mean, I can't question certain 9 people because it might impede an 10 investigation. Like, if you are going to look 11 at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you 12 can't because most of the time, it's been 13 taken. So, I don't know -. 14 MR. : So, possibly from that 15 memo, though, that was created? If they are 16 not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I'm 17 assuming they are not really supposed to be 18 doing interviews. 19 MR. : I mean, I don't know who 20 authorized them to come in and do the 21 investigation. I don't know. It was, you 22 know, who set the parameters on it. I can't 23 speak on that. 24 MR. : And is it a normal for 25 them to do something like this, when there is EFTA00119426

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 409 1 an actual FBI and DIG investigation? 2 MR. : We do after actions. So, I 3 don't know -. 4 MR. : But I mean, do they do 5 after actions typically, when there is an open, 6 criminal investigation, though? 7 MR. : Not typically. 8 MR. : No? 9 MR. : So, I don't know. And 10 again, I don't want to speculate. I don't know 11 who authorized it. I don't know if they got 12 permission from the department to come down and 13 do it. I don't want to -. 14 MR. : Sure. "August 10th, 15 2019." So, this is the day of. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : "6:33 a.m. A body alarm 18 is activated in the Special Housing Unit. SHU 19 staff report inmate Epstein was unresponsive in 20 cell 206-220LAD. Sentry does not reflect this 21 accurately. Staff entered the cell and 22 attempted to wake Epstein. Control center 23 announced a medical emergency, and 24 cardiopulmonary resuscitation," or CPR, "was 25 initiated." So, the question here is, I guess EFTA00119427

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 410 1 I'll start with. Well, the information that we 2 have is Michael Thomas and Noel were there. 3 Michael Thomas immediately went into the cell. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : Upon finding Epstein. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Was it appropriate for 8 him to immediately go into the cell? Or should 9 have he waited for staff to arrive on site? 10 MR. : You should be -- 11 MR. HAYES: What? 12 MR. : -- you're trained -- 13 MR. HAYES: To go into the cell, I would 14 think. 15 MR. : -- no, you wait for enough 16 staff to get there, and a lieutenant, before 17 you open that door. 18 MR. HAYES: Is that right? 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. HAYES: In other words, suppose the 21 fucking guy is in seizure. 22 MR. : Well, the flip side of it 23 is, he could be trying -- 24 MR. : Remember -- 25 MR. : -- he could be feigning it. EFTA00119428

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 411 1 MR. : -- we're in a prison. 2 MR. : Yeah. He could be feigning 3 the suicide, and then come on and attack you. 4 And guess what? You're the only person there. 5 Now, he has the keys for every range door on 6 that door. 7 MR. HAYES: Okay. 8 MR. : And you can lose 9 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- you can lose the unit. 11 MR. HAYES: Okay. Okay. 12 MR. : So -- 13 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Okay. I made a 14 mistake. 15 MR. : -- that wasn't -- 16 MR. HAYES: That's the first time -- 17 MR. : So, he did not. 18 MR. HAYES: -- you make a notation, 19 (Indiscernible *04:48:23). 20 MR. : So, he didn't 21 appropriately (Indiscernible *04:48:25)? 22 MR. : Yeah. He didn't 23 appropriately. 24 MR. : And should have he known 25 that from his training experience? EFTA00119429

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 412 1 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 2 MR. : "7:36 a.m., inmate 3 Epstein pronounced dead by the emergency room 4 physician. And we've already addressed this. 5 My question was, was Epstein alive, or did he 6 show signs of -? But we dug into that plenty. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : "On August 10th, 2019, 9 the two assigned morning watch SHU officers 10 failed to make their designated rounds, or 11 count the SHU inmates for two counts. At 6:33 12 a.m., upon finding inmate Epstein unresponsive 13 in his cell, with a torn bedsheet around his 14 neck, staff utilized the body alarm to initiate 15 a call for assistance. The medical response to 16 the incident was timely, efficient, and 17 exhaustive. Staff utilized an AED, as well as 18 a continuous CPR unit care was assumed by EMS 19 personnel." Are you aware of how - what 20 information they obtained to say that the SHU 21 officers failed to make their designated rounds 22 or counts? 23 MR. : I don't know. 24 MR. : No? And I just say this 25 because I know, in reviewing the emails, a lot EFTA00119430

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 413 1 of this information was provided from you to 2 III, and III was providing it to whomever, that 3 were -- 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : -- was doing this, 6 though. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : So, I was assuming, in 9 drafting these questions, that a lot of this 10 information came from you. 11 MR. : But I wasn't here when this 12 was. 13 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. I 14 think a lot of this stuff, though, was 15 provided, you know 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : -- during the email 18 review, those first couple of days. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : So, that's why I'm asking 21 these questions, is, like, do you know where 22 this information came from? 23 MR. : No, I don't. 24 MR. : No? 25 MR. : Hmm-mm. EFTA00119431

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 414 1 MR. : Okay. "Institution duty 2 officers do not routinely visit SHU each day, 3 as required by the institution supplement. 4 Additionally, the IDO reports consistently 5 document the condition of SHU as satisfactory, 6 when observations have shown the SHU to be less 7 than satisfactory." Do you have any comment on 8 that? Do you agree with that assessment? 9 MR. : Oh, I don't know what day 10 they went in there. Again, when these 11 observations were done, I wasn't the warden in 12 the institution. 13 MR. : Okay. But prior to, when 14 you were the warden, do you know about the 15 institution duty officers not routinely 16 visiting the SHU each day as required? 17 MR. : No. I didn't know about 18 that. 19 MR. : You didn't know about 20 that. 21 MR. : I didn't. I ensured 22 sanitation. You know? I made sure they made, 23 made sure the areas were clean. So. 24 MR. : Okay. And what was their 25 ultimate responsibility when they would visit EFTA00119432

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 415 1 the SHU? 2 MR. : I guess same thing, to make 3 rounds in the unit. Check on the inmates. 4 Make sure there are no issues. 5 MR. : And is that, like you 6 said, the idea was the guy that's on at night? 7 MR. : That's the duty officer. 8 The institution duty officer. 9 MR. : Always at night, though? 10 MR. : They use - they typically 11 work from, like, 1:00 to 9:00, 12:00 to 9:00. 12 They cover the evening shift. 13 MR. : Because I thought it was 14 explained to me, it was kind of, like, the 15 person in charge when you are not here. 16 MR. : Well, yeah. But then, the 17 other flip side of it go to the other shifts, 18 you know, the operations lieutenant is the CEO 19 in the absence of a warden. So -- 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- the duty officer is just 22 the bridge to the executive staff. 23 MR. : But they were actually 24 supposed to be conducting those SHU rounds 25 every day? EFTA00119433

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 416 1 MR. : And then, again, I don't 2 know if they were or were not. I don't know 3 what they were, you know, what he was looking 4 at. 5 MR. : Now, why would, was 6 a reoccurring -- 7 MR. : What? 8 MR. 9 Was he a reoccurring -? 10 MR. : No. The duty officers. 11 Like, sometimes, you can get it twice a year. 12 MR. : Oh, okay. 13 MR. : So, I don't -. 14 MR. : But is it, like, a 15 quarterly -- 16 MR. : Well, remember -- 17 MR. : submitted post type of 18 thing? 19 MR. -- remember, he is also, he 20 is the duty officer, but he is also his unit 21 manager. 22 MR. : But was he -- 23 MR. : So -. 24 MR. : -- the consistent duty 25 officer? EFTA00119434

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No, no, no, no. They 2 rotate. 3 MR. : Every day? 4 MR. : No. Every week. 5 MR. : Every week. 6 MR. : Yeah. You have other ones, 7 every week. So -. 8 MR. : So, it goes between other 9 unit managers? 10 MR. : Other unit managers. Other 11 department heads. So, it kind of goes, you 12 know? 13 MR. : What is the grade -- 14 MR. : And do they -. 15 MR. : -- level requirement? 16 MR. : The department heads. It's 17 usually 12 or higher. 18 MR. : 12 or higher. 19 MR. : And some, like, maybe some 20 GS-11s. Our trust fund supervisors. 21 MR. HAYES: What grade level are you? 22 MR. : Huh? 23 MR. HAYES: What level are you? 24 MR. : SES. 25 MR. HAYES: Which means? EFTA00119435

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 418 1 MR. : It's like a general. 2 MR. : No. A staff. 3 MR. : No. It's what it's 4 equivalent to. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : So, if you're looking at 8 the military equivalent -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. HAYES: Hey, man. 11 MR. : -- it would be -- 12 MR. HAYES: I can't be too -- 13 MR. : -- the general. 14 MR. HAYES: -- cheap. 15 MR. : No. No. No. I can't 16 afford that. I got kids. 17 MR. HAYES: Well, fuck. Why didn't -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. HAYES: -- why didn't somebody tell me 20 that before? 21 MR. : No, no, no. I got -- 22 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:52:52). 23 MR. : -- yeah. 24 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 25 MR. : So, the highest level you EFTA00119436

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 419 1 can go to in the GS level is 15. And that is 2 basically a full (Indiscernible *04:53:00) 3 colonel in the military. SES is the general 4 level. So, don't -. He's being modest. 5 MR. : No. Yeah. 6 MR. HAYES: I always liked him anyway. 7 MR. : I did not know. I 8 thought, I assumed you were 15 since your AWs 9 are 14s, though. 10 MR. : No. But certain 11 institutions, you are SESs. 12 MR. : And MCC was one of those 13 institutions? 14 MR. : MCC is one. Your pre-trials 15 are 15s. Your penitentiaries. Your big lows. 16 Like, Fort Dix. Certain mediums. 17 MR. : And have you maintained? 18 Are you still an SES now? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. Since this time, 21 have you ever been demoted or anything like 22 that? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. HAYES: You know, man, I really -- EFTA00119437

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 420 1 MR. : No. Just got 2 MR. HAYES: -- I really got (Indiscernible 3 *04:53:45) for this guy. 4 MR. : -- no. 5 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:53:45). 6 You know how, I always give law enforcement 7 guys a big, you know, a discount. But I 8 didn't, he's fuck - he's a fucking 9 (Indiscernible *04:53:52) -- 10 MR. : I'm (Indiscernible 11 *04:53:52) a discount. 12 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *04:53:54) 13 couldn't afford him to pay. 14 MR. : Remember, I'm a federal 15 employee. 16 MR. : Federal boys. It doesn't 17 matter if you're a general or not. 18 MR. : We don't make any money. 19 MR. : You're not making a lot 20 of money. 21 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 22 MR. : But -. 23 MR. : Remember, I think the 24 president makes, what? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119438

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 421 1 MR. : 250, and he's the 2 MR. : 400. 3 MR. 400. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Is it 400 now? 6 MR. : And the Vice President makes 7 two something. 8 MR. : Yeah, yeah. No. That's 9 10 MR. : And never disciplined. When 11 I was moved, never given a reason why I was 12 moved. I was just moved. 13 MR. : Okay. So, is the report 14 also says that, "Psychology intake screening of 15 Epstein contained errors in identifying 16 details, including that Epstein was referred to 17 as a black inmate, and by different inmate 18 names." 19 MR. HAYES: Oh, no. You're kidding me. 20 They said he was black? Hell, that was a 21 mistake. 22 MR. : Do you know anything 23 about that? 24 MR. : I don't know anything about 25 that. EFTA00119439

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Would that be a 2 psychology issue? 3 MR. : That is a psychology, 4 whoever was doing that review. 5 MR. : All right. "SHU has 6 multiple cells equipped with video recording 7 capability. Inmate Epstein was not housed in 8 one of these cells. And there appears to be no 9 set guidance on when to utilize these cells." 10 So, you already said you didn't believe, like, 11 he should have been. 12 MR. : So -- 13 MR. : Is that correct? 14 MR. : -- let me correct that. 15 None of the cells, none of the cells that we 16 had in SHU were, had cameras in the cells that 17 were being, working and being used. The only 18 ones up in SHU that had cameras in the cell is 19 Ten South. 20 MR. : Okay. So, no 21 MR. : So, they -- 22 MR. : -- where else in the 23 institution -- 24 MR. : -- nowhere else in there had 25 cameras in the cell. EFTA00119440

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 423 1 MR. HAYES: Hmm. 2 MR. : Ten South, we have it in the 3 cells where you can see -- 4 MR. : That -- 5 MR. : How about, like, Nine 6 South lower, or something like that? Would 7 they? Isn't that, like, the mini Ten South? 8 MR. : That's the - yeah - that's 9 the -- 10 MR. : Or G tier. 11 MR. : G tier. 12 MR. : That's not -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : -- what this is. 15 MR. : So, that -- 16 MR. : Did they have cameras? 17 MR. : -- that did have recording 18 cameras in -- 19 MR. : Just live cameras? 20 MR. in South, yeah. Just 21 Nope. But then, we had no cameras on there 22 that had live cameras in the South. 23 MR. : Okay. So, only 24 MR. : Ten South. 25 MR. : -- Ten South. EFTA00119441

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 424 1 MR. : Only Ten South. 2 MR. : So -- 3 MR. : So -. 4 MR. : -- this statement might 5 actually associate Ten South as part of the 6 SHU. 7 MR. : Right. Because a lot of 8 people that come in, when they first come in, 9 Ten South is part of there, actually part of 10 Nine South. We call it -. It's part of an 11 annex. So, when most people come in, and they 12 have never been there, they don't 13 differentiate. 14 MR. : So, being that these are 15 BOP individuals that did this report, what is 16 your response to them saying that there appears 17 to be set guidance on when to utilize these 18 cells? If they are referring to Ten South. 19 Was there guidance on that? 20 MR. : Yeah. Ten South, like I 21 said, was specifically for the SAMs inmates. 22 MR. : So, do you -- 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : -- also believe that that 25 is an incorrect statement, then? EFTA00119442

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 425 1 MR. : If that's what they are 2 referring to, I do believe it is. 3 MR. : And you believe there was 4 no other working cameras, outside of Ten South? 5 MR. : Ten South is -- 6 MR. : For a single cell. 7 MR. : -- is the one where we had 8 our cameras. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Because we had also been 12 informed that there were cells outside of Ten 13 South that had cameras in them, specifically I 14 think G tier. That's inaccurate? 15 MR. : G tier. There is no 16 recording of inmates in those cells. 17 MR. : Just live? 18 MR. : And I don't even believe 19 live. I know the only ones we had was Ten 20 South. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : We also heard that Ten South 23 wasn't supposed to be utilized anymore. It was 24 actually supposed to be phased out. 25 MR. : It was supposed to be what? EFTA00119443

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 426 1 MR. : Phased out. 2 MR. : What do you mean phased out? 3 MR. ItHe was actually brought up, 4 brought out during the time, after 9/11, to 5 house terrorists inmates. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Have you ever heard anything 8 about the fact that no one was supposed to be 9 housed up there anymore (Indiscernible 10 *04:57:12)? 11 MR. : No. It's not -. It's not 12 to house terrorists"- inmates. It's to house 13 inmates that have a SAMs on them. So, mostly, 14 the most of the inmates that have SAMs on them 15 are terrorist inmates or, you know, maybe an 16 inmate housed for espionage. You know? And 17 then -- 18 MR. : Was it supposed to have been 19 phased out due to PREA concerns? 20 MR. : I didn't -. I don't know 21 anything about that. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. The next one is, 25 the report also shows that, "A review was done EFTA00119444

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 427 1 regarding the overtime conducted by the C.O.s 2 at the MCC, and the shortage of staff." It 3 doesn't say much about it. Do you know what 4 the overall team's finding was? Do you agree 5 that there was a shortage of staff? 6 MR. : Yeah, there was. I mean 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : I'll give you an example. 9 We were short staffed. I was relieving 10 officers on their posts, and on some weekends, 11 I would come in and work a post. I mean -- 12 MR. : You, as the warden? 13 MR. : -- as the warden. I mean, 14 we had -. We were short. I mean -. 15 MR. : Now, is there a Was 16 there a way to rectify that issue? 17 MR. : We could. I mean, hiring. 18 We had, I mean, 40 or 50 staff on OWCP 19 (Phonetic Sp. *04:58:23). 20 MR. : And can you explain what 21 that is? 22 MR. : Workers compensation. 23 MR. : Oh. And what was the 24 percentage there, you said? 25 MR. : About 40 or 50 staff on it. EFTA00119445

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4/ 1 MR. : 40 or 50 staff. 2 MR. : Yeah. On there -. 3 MR. : Did they seem to abuse 4 that? 5 MR. : We all knew it was an abuse. 6 I mean, we -. We had even had conversations 7 with the IG about, you know, you're going to 8 the same doctor. But I mean, I understand. So 9 10 MR. HAYES: So -- 11 MR. : -- every -. 12 MR. HAYES: they were all using the 13 same doctor? 14 MR. : The same . But again, 15 I understand, every agency is short. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : I mean, so, we just had that 18 constant problem. 19 MR. HAYES: That's, like -- 20 MR. : You know? 21 MR. HAYES: -- they use some of these -. 22 Some things, they use the same expert witnesses 23 all the time. 24 MR. : Right. The hiring. We had 25 a lot of department heads that we would use to EFTA00119446

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 429 1 cover. Some of my associate wardens, you know, 2 would cover. So, it was just, you know, had to 3 make do with what we had. 4 MR. : Now, was there, like, a 5 plan in place to try to get you guys up to 6 proper staffing levels? 7 MR. : I mean, we were working on 8 hiring. You know, and getting people in. But 9 it's a process. You know? To get somebody 10 hired, it takes between six and eight months. 11 MR. : And were there a number 12 of people in the pipeline? 13 MR. : Not really. I mean, we went 14 out and did recruiting, because we were 15 competing with other agencies. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : You know? Other agencies 18 are hiring, you know, and we had incentives. 19 You know? To, to get people on. So, it was 20 just a matter of, you know, getting people on 21 board. 22 MR. : And do you think it could 23 have been handled better by some, in some way, 24 by the BOP, in order to rectify that issue? 25 MR. : There's certain things we EFTA00119447

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 don't control. Staffing. You know, the 2 budget. We don't -. I don't -. We don't 3 control that. I mean, we can turn around and 4 say, I want this, but once the law is passed, 5 and it said, this is what you are getting, you 6 don't We need to work with what we've got. 7 MR. : No, and I understand 8 that, that as, like, as far as the BOP goes. 9 But I mean, the MCC, especially, you know, 10 covering SDNYEp2tcin in a lio *05:00:18), and 11 having such high-profile inmates. Was there - 12 do you think that there could have been 13 anything done better, though, by the BOP, to 14 make sure that your institution, specifically 15 MCC, was better staffed? 16 MR. : You could - so, let's go TDY 17 - we couldn't really, couldnt TDY to a point, 18 but then, there are other institutions around 19 the agency that were, you know, the staffing 20 was an issue. So, they can't send somebody out 21 to help, you know? And then, it just brought 22 down the finding. I mean, and getting people 23 to clear your background. Not everybody can 24 clear a background to work. I mean, yeah, we 25 can go out in the street and say, hey, we got a EFTA00119448

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 431 1 job for you, but can you pass the guidelines? 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : And a lot of time, do we 4 know. 5 MR. : All right. So, we're 6 literally less than half of a page left. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : But this next one is just 9 going to be, I'm going to have you just kind of 10 read it -- 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. along with me because 13 it's so long. "He was also an inmate who had 14 risk factors for assault by other inmates, and 15 did require careful selection for appropriate 16 cellmates. Although these issues were noted, 17 well documented, and communicated, a failure 18 still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be 19 placed in the cell alone. Although feasible 20 for an inmate to effectuate suicide while 21 housed with a cellmate, the odds of this 22 occurring are significantly lowered when housed 23 with another inmate." 24 The report continues. "It is apparent 25 various staff at the institution made a point EFTA00119449

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 432 1 of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned 2 cellmate. The captain personally instructed 3 the lieutenants, individually. A mass email 4 was distributed by psychology, and it is 5 apparent some SHU officers were aware. 6 Although many people acknowledge this is an 7 important fact, ultimately, the final staff 8 responsible for not - or did not ensure the 9 requirement was met, including vital 10 directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and 11 a mass email does not ensure -." (Indiscernible 12 *05:02:20) -- 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : "including vital 15 directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and 16 a mass email does not ensure those who truly 17 need that information do, in fact, receive it 18 timely. In this case, inmate Epstein was 19 actually placed with a cellmate when removed 20 from psychological -- 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : -- observation. After 23 that moment, it is clear there was no 24 additional written directive, or a fail safe 25 system established, to ensure inmate Epstein EFTA00119450

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 - 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- would have had a 3 cellmate going forward." So, I guess, first 4 and foremost, do you believe, probably the 5 primary reason why Epstein was able to take his 6 own life was because he didn't have a cellmate? 7 On top of the fact that they weren't conducting 8 rounds in SHU? And counts. 9 MR. : I can't speak to the 10 mindset. Only I can speak to is, he killed 11 himself. 12 MR. : But what I'm asking is, 13 would it have certainly helped prevent his 14 death by one) having an inmate; and two) having 15 rounds and counts conducted? 16 MR. : Oh, if people did their job. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : You know? And -. 19 MR. : Like, obviously, if he 20 killed himself, he did it. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : But the way that the 23 government can better ensure that that doesn't 24 happen is by ensuring that, when it is mandated 25 that someone has a cellmate, they have a EFTA00119451

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 434 1 cellmate. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : And when they do their 4 job, like you just said, they conduct rounds 5 and counts, that -. Is that what you believe 6 would have helped keep him alive today, if, you 7 know, from the government perspective? 8 MR. : I mean, again, I'm going to 9 just say, I can't say what would have kept him 10 alive, but I will say, you know, if people made 11 their rounds, did their job, followed 12 instructions that they were given, then it 13 might have -. Could have minimized what, you 14 know -- 15 MR. HAYES: The risk. 16 MR. : -- you know, what happened. 17 The risk. But I can't talk to, you know, if he 18 would have done it or not done it. If that 19 would have stopped him. 20 MR. : Now, as far as this last 21 sentence, what they wrote, "After that moment, 22 it is clear there was no additional written 23 directive, or fail safe system established to 24 ensure inmate Epstein would have a cellmate 25 going forward." What do you think could have EFTA00119452

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 435 1 been done, and who should have done it? 2 MR. : So, directives and the 3 information was conveyed to people verbally, 4 documented on forms, on what you are supposed 5 to do. There was signs up. 6 MR. : Now, what signs do you 7 know that were up? 8 MR. : No, I mean, the one you read 9 to me, about the sign about doing the 30-minute 10 checks. 11 MR. : Oh, I think this is 12 MR. : So -. 13 MR. : -- specifically talking 14 about the cellmate requirement. 15 MR. : No. I mean, (Indiscernible 16 *05:05:02) cellmate requirement. It was put 17 out by the captain. Directives were given. 18 Staff was spoken to. You know, it's kind of 19 boiled down to people not doing their job. I 20 mean, if I tell you, you have to do something, 21 it's given to you in writing, what more do we 22 have to do? 23 MR. : Well, that's kind of my 24 question, because the BOP is the one who wrote 25 that finding. So, I'm curious myself -- EFTA00119453

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I mean, that's -- 2 MR. : -- what you think -- 3 MR. : I mean -- 4 MR. : -- that could have been 5 done. 6 MR. : -- that's somebody's 7 opinion. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : You know? That's a Monday 10 morning quarterback that came in and make an 11 opinion. I don't know what their ulterior 12 motive is -- 13 MR. : Can you think of any -- 14 MR. for making it. 15 MR. -- anything that wasn't 16 done? Can you think of anything, like, oh, if 17 this could have helped, or maybe he should have 18 done that? As far as the cellmate requirement. 19 MR. : I can't think of anything 20 they should have done. 21 MR. : No. Okay. 22 MR. : Can I ask? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : I know it's bound to - based 25 on once everything comes up, these are EFTA00119454

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 questions that they're going to have. So, I 2 got to ask. I know you mentioned that you 3 couldn't have secondary selection. Like, 4 another replacement for Reyes, because inmates 5 keep moving. But is it possible that a list 6 should have been created? That, you know, 7 should have told the SHU officers, hey, listen, 8 if Reyes ever gets removed, here is a list of 9 maybe possible five inmates that you could 10 choose from? 11 MR. : But I mean, under, you know, 12 different inmates, we can do that, but he was a 13 high-profile inmate that 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : I would have had to get 16 that name and run it up to the department, to 17 see if it was okay. I4t wasn't just him. I 18 was going to arbitrarily say, listen, I need 19 you to, you know, we're going to put this guy 20 . I was, just like with the other ones, sent 21 it up to the department. So, again, it would 22 have been based on who was there. 23 MR. : And because -- 24 MR. : If that. 25 MR. : -- because of that EFTA00119455

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 438 1 extreme detail that had to go into selection, I 2 think what is asking you is, should have 3 there been a list of names that the higher ups 4 signed off on, in case someone was removed, 5 they went to court, they didn't come back, they 6 were transferred, things like this. 7 MR. : Like, that's what they list 8 as a fail safe. Like -- 9 MR. : Right. I mean -- 10 MR. : -- as a precautionary 11 measure. 12 MR. : -- it could have been, but 13 then it would have still been based on who was 14 there that day, at the time. 15 MR. : And that's why I think 16 he's saying, like, a list of five people versus 17 one or two. So, if this person is not -- 18 MR. : I don't -- 19 MR. : -- there, what about this 20 one? That one is not there, either. But maybe 21 this guy. You know, that type of thing. Or 22 did you -- 23 MR. : I just -- 24 MR. : -- just stand by a hunch? 25 MR. : -- yeah. I just, I just EFTA00119456

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 439 1 feel, like, you know -- 2 MR. HAYES: Don't know. 3 MR. : -- it was, I can't, no. I 4 mean -- 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : -- again, I'm operating in 7 hindsight. I mean, at the time -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : -- you know, that's what was 10 done. 11 MR. : Yeah, we know you do. 12 MR. : Yeah. And we are 13 absolutely asking you to operate in hindsight. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : Saying, like 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : -- Monday morning 18 quarterbacking -- 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : -- yourself and your own 21 institution, I get it. But, like, Monday 22 morning quarterbacking this situation -- 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : -- what do you think 25 they, you know, they are referring to this as EFTA00119457

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 440 1 the BOP, and we are not the experts. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : We're coming in. But BOP 4 is saying this. I'm just saying, what do they 5 mean by this? 6 MR. : Right. But 7 MR. : And what are some things 8 that could have been done? 9 MR. : -- but those are individuals 10 that are coming in, looking at a situation, 11 that weren't deeply involved in it. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : You know, they weren't the 14 ones that were told, hey, okay, I'm talking to 15 my boss, and it's going all the way up to the 16 department. That wasn't That wasn't privy 17 to them. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : That was a need to know 20 basis. 21 MR. : But unfortunately, everyone 22 is who going to eventually look at this case 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. -- is going to be doing the 25 same exact thing as they are. EFTA00119458

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 441 1 MR. : No. But what I'm saying is, 2 if we're looking at assessing the situation on 3 what happened in real time, that's what I'm 4 talking about. So, in real time, now, if they 5 had known that, hey, you know what? These 6 names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at 7 the same time, maybe it would have been a 8 different thought process. 9 MR. : And was it possible - and 10 maybe you discussed this - was it possible 11 that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have 12 replaced -? Did they have the ability to 13 replace Reyes, if they wanted to, or did they 14 have to come up the chain of command, for the 15 chain of command to tell them who the new 16 inmate -? 17 MR. : They were instructed, hey, 18 let us know when - where he's to have a 19 cellmate at all time - and to notify, let 20 someone know. Because again, due to the 21 individual that he was, you just don't want to 22 throw anybody. 23 MR. : Okay. But doesn't that kind 24 of hinder them from taking action? Let's say, 25 at that point on that day, you are not in the EFTA00119459

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 institution, Captain was there, I 2 understand. 3 MR. : There was an acting warden 4 there. You had the executive staff there. 5 Just because the warden is not there doesn't 6 mean the institution doesn't run. That's why 7 you have, you know, people acting on your 8 behalf. You know? That could make -- 9 MR. : So, maybe -- 10 MR. those decisions. 11 MR. : -- maybe, what 12 you are trying to ask is, would somebody, since 13 it sounds like you would have to go over your 14 head to even make that decision, has to go to 15 the regional director level, would the 16 associate warden have the ability to go to the 17 regional director, or would have they known to 18 go to the regional director? 19 MR. : So, let's say that did 20 happen, right? They would have 21 MR. : Well, it did happen. 22 MR. no, I'm saying, as far as 23 finding out that, hey, he needed a cellmate. 24 So, even though I'm off that day, I'm still 25 working. 4 z; EFTA00119460

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 443 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Because I got the government 3 phone. And they're going to call me and tell 4 me, hey, this is what we got going on. He 5 needs a cellmate. And then, I would be, like, 6 okay, let's see what we have, so we can send it 7 up. 8 MR. : So, basically, you were 9 always available. Someone was always 10 available, that if the proper notification was 11 being made, up the chain of command -- 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : -- a newer inmate could have 14 been assigned. 15 MR. : That's why I carried it. 16 That's why I had (Indiscernible *05:10:23). 17 So, to, I get calls all hours of the night, 18 even if I'm off, I'm not off. If there is an 19 issue, an emergency, I'm called. Yeah. 20 MR. : Okay. And if someone does 21 ask, should the SHU officers have been given 22 the ability? Your answer to that would have 23 been, you have that phone with you, someone 24 should have made that notification. So -- 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119461

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 444 1 MR. : -- someone in the higher -- 2 MR. : And they -- 3 MR. : -- of command. 4 MR. : -- and they would contact 5 me. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : So, it was not, like, I'm 8 off on paper. Because I am using my leave. 9 But I'm still on duty because you can call me 10 on my phone. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : My last two questions. 14 Based on your conversation, and after this -- 15 MR. HAYES: Thank God. 16 MR. : -- based on your 17 conversations, and this after-action report 18 that we just reviewed those topics, what are 19 the failures of the BOP that allowed Epstein to 20 die? 21 MR. : I'm not -. I mean, that's - 22 . I think -. I can't -. That's -. You know, 23 like, I - again - I'm speculating, and I'm 24 giving personal opinions. I'm not -- 25 MR. : Again, and I'm not asking EFTA00119462

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 445 1 you to say why he killed himself. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : Or if he could have. 4 What I'm saying is, what are the failures of 5 the BOP? 6 MR. HAYES: He killed himself because he 7 ain't stupid. He said to himself, holy shit, 8 I'm going to spend the rest of my life in 9 prison. 10 MR. : Yeah, yeah, and I'm not - 11 12 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 13 MR. : -- and I'm not, 14 absolutely not asking -- 15 MR. HAYES: No. 16 MR. : -- as far as what is his 17 mental state, and could have he had the ability 18 19 MR. : But I can't -- 20 MR. : -- but are the failures, 21 as you see them, after we reviewed all this, 22 that you believe -. What did the BOP do wrong, 23 in this instance? Unless you don't think that 24 they did anything wrong. 25 MR. : No. I'm not saying they did EFTA00119463

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 446 1 anything wrong. But again, these are things 2 that you are going to find. I mean, right now, 3 I can look at it and say, we're looking at 4 people not making rounds and all that. But 5 there's still an investigation going on. So, I 6 don't want to sit here and speculate 7 MR. : No, but we are the ones - 8 9 MR. : -- and say -- 10 MR. : -- doing the 11 investigation, and -- 12 MR. right. 13 MR. : -- you are the leader of 14 the organization that, you know, of the place. 15 That's why this is a very relevant question for 16 you to answer because -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- you know, this was the 19 facility that you oversaw. 20 MR. : Right. So 21 MR. : So, we're just -. All 22 I'm simply asking is, what do you think the 23 problems are, as you see them? After you just 24 heard everything we just talked about for, it 25 seems like the last five hours. EFTA00119464

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 447 1 MR. : No. I mean, if we would 2 talk - I mean, you're not counting. You didn't 3 make your rounds in that unit, to check on an 4 inmate. I mean, that is, that is the basics 5 right there. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : You know, we can talk about 8 all the other stuff, but the basic is, you did 9 not go and make those rounds. 10 MR. : And would you also, 11 though, add to that the fact that they didn't 12 replace Reyes 13 MR. : Oh. 14 MR. : -- like they were 15 supposed to? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. What actions could 18 the BOP have taken to possibly prevent 19 Epstein's death? 20 MR. HAYES: It doesn't sound like 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. HAYES: -- still, you were nervous. 23 MR. : Totally. 24 MR. HAYES: That's all. I mean, you could 25 have -- EFTA00119465

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 448 1 MR. : It just, it sounds like 2 they quote, the answer would be, conduct your 3 rounds, conduct your counts. Get a -- 4 MR. : Do your job. 5 MR. : -- do your job. Get 6 Reyes -. 7 MR. HAYES: 99 times out of a 100, it 8 wouldn't have happened. 9 MR. : Right. So -- 10 MR. HAYES: You know, it's -. 11 MR. : -- but in this case, it 12 does seem, like, a lot of this was a result of 13 - like you keep on saying - people not doing 14 their jobs. 15 MR. HAYES: Jobs. 16 MR. : But I mean -- 17 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 18 MR. : -- but in all fairness, 19 we've had, since Epstein died, and before, 20 we've had almost 60 suicides. So, it's the 21 same reoccurring theme. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : You know, people not making 24 their rounds and doing what they're supposed to 25 do. EFTA00119466

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 449 1 MR. : And is that the same 2 thing that's happening with them, they're not 3 doing their rounds or counts? 4 MR. : I mean, and nine times out 5 of ten, every time you look into something, it 6 is a matter of them doing checks, you know, not 7 counting, you know? So, it's the normal 8 things. 9 MR. : Are these other 10 instances, where we find out that they didn't 11 have cellmates? 12 MR. : Single cell. You know, I 13 mean, you have access to the data. I mean, you 14 look at it, and you look at the numbers of 15 single cell inmates. But there is instances 16 where, you know, sometimes you do have to put 17 somebody in a cell single. 18 MR. : Sure. 19 MR. : But, you know, there is 20 other suicides, and they don't stop. You know? 21 Some of it is, you know, staff had no control 22 over it, and some staff had control over it. 23 MR. : And I do apologize. 24 said that was the last question, but I guess I 25 should ask. In Monday morning quarterbacking EFTA00119467

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 450 1 yourself, is there anything that you should 2 have done differently? 3 MR. : Hmm. 4 MR. : As the MCC warden? 5 MR. : As far as what? This 6 situation? 7 MR. : Yeah. Just anything that 8 you feel, like, oh, you know, like, I should 9 have done this better, or I could have done 10 this better. That type of thing. 11 MR. : I can't. 12 MR. : Just for the record, let 13 me just -- 14 MR. : I can't think of anything 15 for that. 16 MR. : -- okay. Anything else 17 you have? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. HAYES: That's it? 20 MR. : Anything that -- 21 MR. HAYES: Jesus Christ. 22 MR. : -- you wanted to add to 23 anything, Warden, anything that -- 24 MR. HAYES: I didn't know if you said 25 MR. : -- we missed, or you want EFTA00119468

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 451 1 to -? 2 MR. HAYES: -- generally. 3 MR. : No. No. That's it. 4 MR. : Is there anything you think 5 we missed asking about? 6 MR. HAYES: Don't ask him that. 7 MR. : Not that I can think of. 8 MR. HAYES: You have a right to remain 9 silent. (Indiscernible *05:15:06). Guys, 10 listen, you know? 11 MR. : Yeah. No. We got you. 12 MR. HAYES: Like, I was impressed that you 13 did that. He couldn't go through this. I 14 would have been to the bathroom, like, I got to 15 do this, I got to do this. I mean, I got to 16 make a phone call. I want to take a nap. He 17 just sat there and answered all the questions. 18 I mean, he's not -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. HAYES: -- even sweating under his 21 armpits. 22 MR. : And thank you very much - 23 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- for your cooperation - EFTA00119469

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MR. : No. I appreciate -- 3 MR. : Especially -- 4 MR. : -- you guys. 5 MR. : -- the recording is 6 showing that this is five hours and 15 minutes. 7 So, this was an epic, epic interview. It is 8 currently 7:18 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 9 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 10 , and I am turning off the recorder. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00119470

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LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 454 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00119472