LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 301 1 MR. : So, we didn't know, oh my 2 gosh, do we have a recording of this thing? 3 MR. : The second one, too. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : All right. Now, we are 6 going to get into the actual incident. 7 MR. HAYES: Oh my God. Now, 8 (Indiscernible *03:34:06) getting ready to get 9 into. 10 MR. : We don't have much more. 11 I promise. I mean, we are way passed the -- 12 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 13 MR. : -- yeah. What is your 14 understanding of what occurred in Epstein's 15 cell on August 10th, 2019? 16 MR. : I don't know. 17 MR. : You don't know? 18 MR. : I didn't go up there 19 MR. : Do you -. 20 MR. : I never saw the cell. 21 MR. : Do you believe if -. Do 22 you know if Epstein took his own life? 23 MR. : That's what I've been told. 24 MR. : Is that your 25 understanding of what happened? EFTA00119319

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 302 1 MR. : That was what was conveyed 2 to me. 3 MR. : Do you have any 4 information, with regard to anyone else taking 5 Epstein's life? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : No. Have you heard that 8 Epstein's cell door was left opened on the 9 night of August 9th, 2019, and/or the morning 10 of August 10th, 2019? 11 MR. : I didn't hear that. 12 MR. : You have never heard 13 that? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : Have you heard that any 16 cellmate's in the SHU - any cells within the 17 SHU, any of their doors were left opened on the 18 night of August 9th, 2019 in the morning? 19 MR. : I did not hear that. 20 MR. : On August 9th. No? 21 MR. : Hmm-mm. 22 MR. : Do you know if anyone 23 harmed Epstein? 24 MR. : No. I would have reported 25 it. EFTA00119320

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 303 1 MR. : All right. So, these are 2 the - let's see - this is the Bureau of Prisons 3 Health Services Clinical Encounter. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : Did you get to review 6 this one at all? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : It talks about responding 9 to a body alarm at 6:35 for medical emergency. 10 MR. : I think I might have saw the 11 memorandums, but I don't I don't recall 12 seeing this. 13 MR. : All right. So, let me 14 just read this, for the record -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- because it is a very 17 quick one. It says, "Responded to a body alarm 18 at 6:35 for a medical emergency on Nine South. 19 Upon arrival, inmate was received on the floor 20 of his cell, unresponsive, with CPR in progress 21 by correctional officers. The inmate was cold 22 with circumferential bruising around the neck 23 and posterior mottling. Pupils fixed and 24 dilated. No palpus (Phonetic Sp. *03:35:59) 25 pulses, call place for EMS, CPR continued. EFTA00119321

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 304 1 ED placed. No shock advised. CPR 2 continued. Inmate transported to HSU treatment 3 room, with CPR in progress. 18G, heplock 4 (Phonetic Sp. *03:36:12)." No. I'm not going 5 to read the rest of this. It just talks about 6 continued CPR in progress. Are you aware, 7 after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019, 8 at approximately 6:33 a.m., did he ever show 9 any signs of life? 10 MR. : I never -. I wasn't up 11 there. 12 MR. : Yeah. I just didn't know 13 if you had heard -- 14 MR. : No. When I -- 15 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 16 *03:36:34). 17 MR. : -- when I got there, he wa - 18 already out. 19 MR. : Because they said that, 20 you know, he was declared deceased at the 21 hospital. So, my question is, it sounds like, 22 from this person's report -- 23 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 24 MR. : -- he was 25 MR. HAYES: Right. EFTA00119322

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 305 1 MR. : -- there was no signs of 2 life. 3 MR. : And that's -- 4 MR. : And I was just wondering, 5 had you heard anything from staff? Was there 6 ever any signs of life, that you are aware of, 7 while after - from the point he was found, on. 8 MR. : Well, the impression that I 9 was given was, he was alive when he left the 10 institution. 11 MR. : So, you believed he was 12 actually alive? 13 MR. : That's what was conveyed. 14 MR. : It was conveyed to you 15 that -? 16 MR. : I think he was still alive, 17 if I remember right. I think he was -. They 18 did the CPR. And then, they got him out. 19 MR. : And who -. So, according 20 to this, again, this person arrived at 6:35 -- 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : -- they're saying the 23 inmate was cold. You know, "Pupils fixed and 24 dilated. No palpus pulses." Meaning, I'm 25 assuming, that means no pulse. You know? EFTA00119323

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 306 1 MR. : So, you would probably have 2 to look at the response, the staff responding 3 memorandums on what -. 4 MR. : So, up until this date, 5 did you think that he was alive when he had 6 left the institution? 7 MR. : That's what I believed. 8 That was the impression I had. 9 MR. HAYES: Can I ask a question? Right. 10 If he was dead when they came, and somebody 11 found him, or even if he was close to death, 12 how long would it have been that he tried to 13 kill himself, and the time that they found him? 14 In other words, does that mean he tried to kill 15 himself 45 minutes before? Does that mean he 16 tried to kill himself 30 minutes before? You 17 understand the question I'm asking? 18 MR. : Sure. I mean, that is 19 something that the medical examiner, you know, 20 makes that determination. 21 MR. HAYES: Because obviously, if he was, 22 had done whatever he did, during the time that 23 there was supposed to be a round, and somebody 24 fucked up, you know what I mean? If you are 25 there, with a towel around your throat, that's EFTA00119324

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 307 1 a hint that you are not exactly in the best of 2 moods. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : But the other thing is, you 5 know, I don't know, like you just said, the 6 medical examiner determines, you know, if he's 7 alive or -. 8 MR. : Well, and that was going 9 to become my follow up. First of all, who - 10 this person. It says provider, 11 RN. Is that someone who worked at -? 12 MR. : He was one of the nurses 13 that worked. 14 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : All right. And is it 16 your understanding, by saying provider, this is 17 the person who wrote this report? 18 MR. : Yeah. Typically, who has 19 the encounter fills it, writes it in the 20 system. 21 MR. : Okay. So, up until me 22 reading these out, you actually were under the 23 assumption that he was alive? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : When he left. EFTA00119325

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 308 1 MR. : I thought he was alive. 2 Yeah. That was my assumption. 3 MR. : Okay. Does that have 4 anything to do with the fact that the medical 5 examiner is the only one who can declare him 6 dead? 7 MR. : It does, too. 8 MR. : All right. And also -- 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : I have heard that 11 inmates don't die at prisons. 12 MR. : Well, I mean, people say 13 that, but again, in reality, we - no one in the 14 prison can declare an inmate dead. 15 MR. : Right, right, right. 16 MR. : Even if -. 17 MR. : But is that what you mean 18 by that statement, though? Did you -. I mean, 19 had you heard that he showed signs from life? 20 MR. : From what -- 21 MR. : Because we have heard 22 this -- 23 MR. : -- from -- 24 MR. : -- type of thing -- 25 MR. : -- yeah, from what I -- EFTA00119326

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 309 1 MR. : -- before. 2 MR. : -- hear, they were still 3 performing life-saving measures on him, even 4 when, from - what do you call it? - EMS coming 5 in there. So, when you say to me that we are 6 performing life-saving measures, I'm assuming 7 that he is still alive. 8 MR. : Right. Like, there is -- 9 MR. : so -. 10 MR. : -- always a chance you 11 could bring him back. 12 MR. : That, you know 13 MR. : Or you are hoping that 14 you are going to resuscitate him. But do you 15 know of any indication of -- 16 MR. HAYES: That he was successful 17 MR. : -- signs of life? 18 MR. HAYES: -- yeah. 19 MR. : I didn't. Again, I'm going 20 off of, assuming that he was still alive 21 because they were still working on him. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : So, and if somebody start, 24 now, I've been in situations where the 25 paramedics come in, and, you know, they work on EFTA00119327

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 310 1 them, and they say, you know what? There is 2 nothing else we can do. He still hasn't been 3 declared dead. 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MR. : But they still -. 6 MR. HAYES: Right. 7 MR. : But from what I gather, they 8 were still working on them. 9 MR. HAYES: When you say nobody dies in 10 prison, you are being facetious? 11 MR. : It's just one of those 12 things that -- 13 MR. HAYES: Yeah. It doesn't 14 MR. : -- it happens at the -- 15 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 16 MR. : -- at the hospital. 17 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : That's where they ar= 20 declared dead. 21 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. HAYES: Right. Okay. 24 MR. : And that's not, you know, 25 necessarily true. I mean, it's where you are EFTA00119328

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 like, sometimes 2 MR. HAYES: It's sort of a joke. 3 MR. : -- yeah. 4 MR. HAYES: To (Indiscernible *03:40:46). 5 MR. : It's a joke. Because 6 sometimes, the bodies are still there, and -- 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : -- and we know he is 9 deceased. But then, the doctor and the medical 10 examiner -- 11 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 12 MR. : -- declares -- 13 MR. HAYES: At the hospital -- 14 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 15 *03:40:57). 16 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *03:40:57) 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. HAYES: The guy's got a big 19 (Indiscernible *03:41:00), you know -- 20 MR. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. HAYES: -- whatever they call them, 22 knives in his chest. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. HAYES: You know, you can tell he's 25 not coming back, but I mean, you know what I'm EFTA00119329

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 312 1 saying, they don't say he's dead on the scene. 2 (Indiscernible *03:41:04). 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : But just, I just want to 5 be clear, because with that statement, without 6 me getting a little more clarification, people 7 are going to read, wait a second, the warden 8 said that he was still, he thought he was still 9 alive. Now, I want to make sure I'm clear. 10 Are you saying that there was a chance for them 11 to bring him back, or based upon the 12 conversation with someone - and my follow would 13 be that, who? - did you believe that he was 14 still alive? 15 MR. : My assumption, from when I 16 was called, was they were working on him, and 17 he was - they were being taken to the hospital. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : That's -- 20 MR. HAYES: That was -- 21 MR. : -- that's the term. 22 MR. HAYES: -- that -. Wait. You were 23 called at a certain time. 24 MR. : Yeah. When the lieutenant 25 called. EFTA00119330

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 313 1 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, the lieutenant 2 says -. 3 MR. : So, when you came back 4 and found out, did you ever find out that he 5 wasn't showing signs of life, when you came in 6 and talked to people? 7 MR. : No. Because I - first of 8 all, when it happened, I wasn't going around 9 questioning people about -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- okay, what's going on 12 with this, because then, I knew that it was a 13 criminal case. But not criminal, but there was 14 going to be an investigation into it. And so, 15 I didn't want to give the appearance of 16 anything, that I was interfering with any 17 investigation. But when I did call, they said 18 they were working on him, and that, you know, 19 he was being transported to the outside 20 hospital. 21 MR. : And who was it that 22 provided you with that information? 23 MR. : The lieutenant. Lieutenant 24 25 MR. HAYES: So, you drew the inference EFTA00119331

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 314 1 that that -- 2 MR. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. HAYES: -- meant he was still alive? 4 MR. : Right. I assumed that, you 5 know, they were still working on him, and he 6 was still alive. 7 MR. : And after that 8 conversation, though, and speaking with other 9 people, you never gathered that, oh, he was, 10 they were working on him, attempting to bring 11 him back, but he was not alive? 12 MR. : I didn't -. 13 MR. : From -. 14 MR. : The assumption, my 15 assumption, was that he was deceased at the 16 hospital. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Yeah. So. 19 MR. : All right. Do you want 20 to follow up on that at all, anymore? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : That kind of covers it. 25 MR. HAYES: Are we through now? EFTA00119332

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. HAYES: Oh, god. 4 MR. : We only have, really, 5 very brief conversations left. All right. So, 6 this was an email sent from you, to III 7 It just says, subject, "Names." 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : It says Michael Thomas. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : Tova Noel, and 12 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : Who were -? Why were 15 those people listed? 16 MR. : Because he wanted to know 17 who was working up there that night. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Who was the staff working 20 there that night. 21 MR. : So, why did you write 22 versus, like, , or who else was 23 up there? Was (Phonetic Sp. *03:43:25) 24 still there? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00119333

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 316 1 MR. : At least and 2 . Was left off for any reason? 3 Because I think worked 4 MR. : I think this 5 MR. : -- until midnight, and 6 only worked until 10:00. 7 MR. : No. For - and I don't - 8 correct me if I'm wrong - I don't know if he 9 wanted to know who was on the midnight shift. 10 And then, I included who was on Ten South. I'm 11 not sure. 12 MR. : I think was 13 the OIC of the shift previous. And then, just 14 Tova, 15 MR. : Tova would have -- 16 MR. : -- and Tova were the ones 17 from -- 18 MR. : -- been two up there. 19 MR. : -- midnight afterwards. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : And then -. 22 MR. : I think that Ten South was 23 Adams. 24 MR. : Yeah. So, I don't know, 25 remember it. But I know it had to do with the EFTA00119334

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 question about who was working. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : So, I don't know the 4 specifics and why it listed those three. 5 MR. : And you don't know if, 6 like, because these were, who we considered the 7 subjects. 8 MR. : No. I mean, these two would 9 have been obvious because they were working up 10 there on the midnight shift. But I don't know 11 why got thrown in there. 12 MR. : Okay 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : Mind just initial and 15 dating that? Okay. And this one is an email 16 from Captain to you, dated Sunday, 17 August 11, 2019. And it says, subject, "A 18 memorandum, Epstein." 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : And it says that this was 21 dated August 10th, 2019. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : It's from Captain 24 It says, subject is, "Security expectations 25 involving inmate Epstein, Jeffrey." EFTA00119335

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 318 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Are you familiar with 3 this? Did you ever see this, that he sent? 4 MR. : I did. 5 MR. : Do you know what the 6 purpose of this was? 7 MR. : Let me read it again. 8 "(Indiscernible *03:44:56), and while this 9 could be conducted, I did, I informed staff 10 (Indiscernible *03:44:59) be dealing with 11 inmate Epstein, and others were notified. 12 explained that lieutenants were to conduct 13 (Indiscernible *03:45:08), and at that point, 14 (Indiscernible *03:45:09). I explained I 15 could, and they would not (Indiscernible 16 *03:45:15)." Oh, no. I just was asking him 17 when the thing happened, what is the guidance 18 he provided? 19 MR. : So, what did he provide 20 to, like, the SHU staff and the lieutenant? 21 Because -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : -- at least the last 24 little point on this first page -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119336

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 319 1 MR. : -- so, it says, "In 2 detailed conversations with the SHU lieutenant, 3 he was informed of my expectations regarding 4 the supervision of inmate Epstein, 5 specifically, he was reminded on several 6 occasions that inmate Epstein was to be housed 7 with a cellmate." 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : So, is this all, like, 10 the expectations surrounding 11 MR. : The expectations. 12 MR. : -- Epstein? 13 MR. : Right. Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : And when he says, "burin: 15 the week of July 31st, 2019, in order to 16 address management concerns with inmate 17 Epstein," do you know what he is talking about 18 there? With management concerns. 19 MR. : The housing of them. And in 20 the Special Housing Unit. 21 MR. : Okay. And do you know 22 if, according to this, it looks like he is 23 saying that he did perform en informal training 24 sessions with staff. Do you know if he, in 25 fact, did that, or is it just based upon EFTA00119337

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 320 1 MR. : Just based upon -- 2 MR. : -- what he wrote here? 3 MR. : -- on what he sent out. 4 MR. : Okay. So, there is no 5 other information, aside from what he's telling 6 you? 7 MR. : Right. Yeah. He told me 8 that. 9 MR. : So, this one is - I want 10 to get your take on this matter - so, this is 11 back to , who was relieved 12 at 5:30, but she stayed at the institution at 13 least until 9:30, and sent out that email, 14 detailing, you know, what day, and the 15 lieutenant's log, and the daily activity log. 16 So, Captain sent her an email on 17 8/12/2019, stating, "Lieutenant , i am 18 reminding you to submit your supervisory 19 memorandum for the inmate Epstein incident that 20 occurred on 8/10/2019. 21 Please have it complete and ready for 22 submission on 8/13/2019." She responded with 23 no, addressing nothing, just saying, just 24 responded simply, "In your email, you state, 25 quote, `I am reminding you.' End quote. EFTA00119338

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 321 1 haven't spoken to you or anyone else regarding 2 the incident involving inmate Epstein or 3 anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019. 4 So, how is it possible for you to be reminding 5 me? Second, I hadve been properly relieved, 6 prior to the incident involving inmate 7 Epstein." What is your take on that email? 8 MR. : First of all, any major 9 incident that takes place in the institution, 10 we have to do what is called a report of 11 incident. 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : He is well within the scope 14 of his employment, asking, okay, where is your, 15 where is -. And I don't know if he was asking 16 her the overall memorandum. Like, you are the 17 shift lieutenant. You know, when this incident 18 took place. So, technically, you should have 19 been doing the packet. So, he is probably 20 contacting her for that. 21 MR. : Well, she was relieved at 22 5:30 a.m., but she was still there, and the 23 incident happened at 6:30. And again, she 24 wasewe there at least until 9:30. And she did 25 respond to the SHU afterwards, helping with the EFTA00119339

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 322 1 feeding. Should have she written a memorandum? 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : Yes? 4 MR. : I mean, she said she 5 responded to the incident? 6 MR. : She didn't respond to the 7 incident. She responded after the incident, to 8 help in the SHU with feeding and dealing with 9 the inmates. 10 MR. : So, she -. Well -. 11 MR. HAYES: So, somebody told her that the 12 fucking guy hung himself, should she have -. 13 Right? 14 MR. : Again, from what I gather, I 15 am under the impression, when the lieutenant 16 relieved her, she was gone. Because, and, you 17 know, and I can't speculate on what was there. 18 So, if we -. 19 MR. : She said she stuck 20 around, working on matters that she needed to 21 catch up on. 22 MR. : Okay. So -- 23 MR. : But it sounds like 24 manipulating those numbers on the counts and 25 stuff. EFTA00119340

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Right? 3 MR. : So, let me ask you this 4 question. I have, I have a medical emergency. 5 A suicide, right? That is an emergency 6 everyone in the institution has to respond to. 7 Why didn't you respond to it? 8 MR. : So, you think that she 9 maybe came back after? 10 MR. : It doesn't make sense to say 11 12 MR. : Well, she never sent out 13 her required logs, though. 14 MR. : Right. So, that, but -- 15 MR. : So, you reviewed her 16 emails. And I would think that she would have 17 sent that out, if she had left, I would think 18 she would have sent that out before she left. 19 Right? As required. 20 MR. : Right. So, did you leave 21 and come back? I mean, because if you are 22 saying that you were there, you would have been 23 one of the first responders up to the unit. 24 MR. : Yeah, 25 MR. : For the emergency. EFTA00119341

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That's a really good 2 point. 3 MR. : You know? 4 MR. HAYES: In other words -- 5 MR. : I wish we had -- 6 MR. HAYES: -- they're saying it sounds 7 fishy. 8 MR. : I wish we had thought 9 of that. 10 MR. : I mean, so, and then, if you 11 12 MR. : And if she didn't, why? 13 MR. : -- and if you didn't 14 respond, why didn't you respond? 15 MR. : If she Is it a claim 16 at all, I had been relieved, I wasn't 17 technically working? 18 MR. : If you are in the building, 19 you have to respond. 20 MR. : Is that right? 21 MR. : It's an emergency. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : I mean, as a lieutenant -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I would want to respond, EFTA00119342

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 325 1 and say -- 2 MR. : And so, the fact that she 3 states that she was there, and she was working 4 on her administrative responsibilities 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : -- so, is that a problem, 7 then, as the warden? What do you mean you are 8 working on the administrative? You should have 9 responded to that emergency. 10 MR. : No. But - and I don't want 11 to speculate on when you are there - but I 12 just, there is just some questions 13 MR. HAYES: Wait, and I think 14 MR. : -- they just don't -- 15 MR. HAYES: -- that is a yes or a no -- 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. HAYES: -- you know, question. 18 MR. : Yeah. I mean, it's a 19 problem. If you are saying I am working on it, 20 okay. Now, at what point did you say, okay, I 21 need to, because once they had said, hey, I 22 have a suicide or something going on, which is 23 probably over, you know, a real medical 24 emergency, and you hear the transmission on the 25 radio, you are going to go up there. So then, EFTA00119343

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 326 1 you say, oh, I went up there later, to help 2 with the feeding. Either way, you were in the 3 building. The captain is asking you, it 4 happened on your shift, you are responsible for 5 conducting the report of incident. 6 MR. : So, that answer is yes, 7 she should have written a memorandum? 8 MR. : She should have written one. 9 I don't understand why she didn't, you know? 10 MR. : And is that at all 11 reading how she responded - is that 12 insubordination at all, to you? 13 MR. : Listen. I will put it this 14 way. I can't speak on other supervisors or how 15 they tolerate, but if you had given me a 16 memorandum like this, we would be having a 17 conversation. You know? 18 MR. : Is that, at the very 19 least, inappropriate -- 20 MR. : I think -- 21 MR. : I think it's 22 inappropriate. I mean, that's the way -- 23 MR. : I mean, I read it. I 24 thought it was inappropriate. 25 MR. : -- yeah. EFTA00119344

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 327 1 MR. : I just didn't know how 2 MR. : I would have gone to have a 3 conversation, like, you know, first, are you 4 all right? And then, secondly, what is this? 5 But yeah. 6 MR. : Fair enough. 7 MR. HAYES: Okay, listen, one last 8 question. 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. HAYES: Does that give the implication 11 that she is covering up for somebody, or she 12 just didn't do her job? 13 MR. : I don't know. 14 MR. : We don't know. That's 15 Had you heard anything about her covering up 16 for someone? Because -. 17 MR. : I haven't heard anything, 18 but, you know -- 19 MR. : Did you hear about 20 inmates saying that she was making statements 21 that she was going to cover for other people? 22 MR. : Again, I don't want to make 23 any statements -- 24 MR. : No, no, I'm asking you 25 MR. : -- that are not factual. EFTA00119345

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 328 1 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *03:51:56). 2 MR. did you ever hear -? 3 MR. : No, I didn't hear anything. 4 MR. HAYES: I would hate to -- 5 MR. : You never heard it. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. HAYES: -- I would hate to give my own 8 client a hard time. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. HAYES: But, but it sounds to me like 11 she's got three hours where she knows this guy 12 is dead. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. HAYES: You know? And she don't say 15 much. I mean, you know, if I was him, I would 16 be drawing an inference, saying, what the fuck 17 is going on? Excuse my language, by the way. 18 I have a filthy mouth. 19 MR. : No. I mean, I understand 20 what you are saying, but you know, I'm just, my 21 point of view is - and my concern - is -- 22 MR. HAYES: Yup. 23 MR. : -- if you were there 24 MR. HAYES: Your concern is, you would 25 have asked, unlike myself, you would have asked EFTA00119346

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 329 1 her a question first -- 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. HAYES: -- rather than jumping into, 4 which is -- 5 MR. : Because I was -- 6 MR. HAYES: -- which is what I did. 7 MR. : -- under the impression, 8 because when Lieutenant called me, he was 9 the operations lieutenant, and he had relieved 10 her. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : She had gone home already. 13 MR. : Well, he had certainly 14 relieved her, but -- 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : -- according to her, she 17 hadn't gone home. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Do you mind just 20 initialing and dating that? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Maybe you asked this 23 question. And I just want to clarify. Being 24 that she started this shift 10:00 p.m. the 25 night before, right? EFTA00119347

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 330 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Let's say this incident did 3 happen. We're not saying she did. We don't 4 know. If she went in and she altered the 5 lieutenant logs, for the previous shift, did 6 she do something wrong? 7 MR. : Well, and again, we are 8 knowing, though, that she started at 10:00 p.m. 9 So, that is still her shift. 10 MR. : Yeah. But -- 11 MR. : We've had this 12 conversation -- 13 MR. : -- no, no, but -- 14 MR. : -- before. 15 MR. : -- let's just say, you know, 16 the fact that the inmate wasn't moved until 17 midnight, and then the clarification, and the 18 count, the count numbers being changed in 19 there. Now, so, the lieutenant log count 20 numbers are accurate, except the count, the 21 actual count slips, were completely off. So, 22 somewhere along the way, someone altered those 23 numbers to -- 24 MR. : Well -- 25 MR. : -- correct it. EFTA00119348

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 331 1 MR. : -- the lieutenant is 2 required to take a count on each shift. So 3 MR. HAYES: So, see, wait. 4 MR. : -- you got the -- 5 MR. HAYES: -- the lieutenant is supposed 6 to take in a count. Right? 7 MR. : Right. Just to take one 8 count -- 9 MR. HAYES: He's supposed to -- 10 MR. on shift. 11 MR. : An institutional count. 12 MR. : Institutional count. 13 MR. HAYES: Okay. 14 MR. : Not a physical, in the 15 SHU count. 16 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, now -- 17 MR. : But now, if you 18 (Indiscernible *03:53:53). 19 MR. HAYES: -- I got to shut up. 20 MR. : Yeah. Go ahead. 21 MR. HAYES: He's supposed to take a count. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. HAYES: Right? And he's supposed to 24 enter the count. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119349

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 332 1 MR. HAYES: Right? Okay. And there was a 2 count entered, right? And there is no question 3 that, at some point, the count was altered? 4 MR. : The count was wrong. 5 MR. : The count was wrong. 6 MR. HAYES: Okay. Okay. 7 MR. : Well, no 8 MR. HAYES: Yeah. (Indiscernible 9 *03:54:14) -- 10 MR. : -- what he's saying is it 11 was altered. 12 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *03:54:15). 13 MR. : I'm talking about the numbers 14 15 MR. : So, if you recall 16 MR. : -- on the paperwork. 17 MR. : -- on August 9th, 2019, 18 the lieutenant's log says, at midnight, there 19 was 72 in the SHU. The count slip says 73. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : And the lieutenant's log 22 for the next day at midnight says there was 73. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : So, what Agent is 25 asking is, well, that obviously goes to show EFTA00119350

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 333 1 that she went back and changed those numbers to 2 72, because -- 3 MR. HAYES: But what is her motive -- 4 MR. : -- that midnight -- 5 MR. HAYES: -- to do that? 6 MR. : -- she says she was just 7 trying to make things accurate. 8 MR. HAYES: But what would be an ulterior 9 motive that would create the idea that she was 10 doing something wrong? 11 MR. : It goes back to when you 12 asked -- 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : -- is there something to 15 do with a cover up? 16 MR. : So, if - and granted, 17 mistakes are made in the log - but you also 18 annotate that in the log. Like, you will put, 19 okay, late entry. Because typically, if you 20 say the log is done already, when you go back 21 and make changes, you make changes for this 22 reason alone. An investigator comes in, looks 23 at it, and says, well, wait a minute, it looks 24 like you've been playing, you went back and 25 just changed the numbers. So, you can put in EFTA00119351

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 334 1 there, and you say, okay, late entry, explain 2 what your change was, and what the mistake was. 3 MR. HAYES: So, really, with this -- 4 MR. : You know? 5 MR. HAYES: -- to show a malicious intent 6 in her part, there's got to be something that 7 influences her to protect one of the people 8 that were - no question - were fucking around. 9 Right? The two guys that were fucking around 10 ended up getting pinched. Right? So, if one 11 of them is her friend, then she's got a 12 malicious motive to go try and cover for that 13 guy. Like, did $8,000 (Indiscernible 14 *03:55:58) police officer, he says, well, I 15 thought he drew a gun on me. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. HAYES: And I shot him. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. HAYES: Oh, okay. Nobody else saw 20 that. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : But you are not aware of 23 her involvement at all, you said, or 24 MR. : As far as what? 25 MR. : -- covering up for them, EFTA00119352

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 335 1 or involvement in Epstein's death? 2 MR. : No. She wouldn't have had 3 that conversation with them. 4 MR. : And you weren't - until 5 now, it sounds like - even aware that she was 6 at the institution after 5:30 a.m.? 7 MR. : I was told she left. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : And again, who told you 11 that? 12 MR. : The operations lieutenant. 13 Because he called me and he says, hey, I 14 relieved -- 15 MR. : So, 16 MR. 17 MR. : Sorry. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Okay. And did you have - 20 before we move on to the next subject - do you 21 have any more on that? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : So now, we are going to 24 talk about the cameras. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119353

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Were the SHU cameras 2 recording on August 9th and 10th of 2019? 3 MR. : I didn't physically go check 4 to see if they were, were recording or not. 5 MR. : Did you learn that they 6 were not recording? 7 MR. : Yeah. We found out 8 afterwards, that they weren't recording. 9 MR. HAYES: Wait. Wait. We had this 10 conversation. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. HAYES: The cameras don't work in a 13 lot of these institutions. Right? 14 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Yeah. 15 MR. HAYES: All right. And that's because 16 they didn't spend the fucking money to make 17 sure the cameras work. 18 MR. : Well, it's -- 19 MR. HAYES: And I got to stop saying 20 "fuck." 21 MR. : -- that's the issue, too, 22 funding, and, you know, so, since that 23 incident, I guess there was some audits done by 24 the agency, and they realized that it was kind 25 of a system (Indiscernible *03:57:15). EFTA00119354

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 337 1 MR. HAYES: But you see, the issue is, 2 should you have checked why weren't the cameras 3 working? 4 MR. : Well, that's my question 5 is, do you know why they were not working? 6 MR. : I don't know the specific 7 language that was used, and what was wrong with 8 it, because I guess, after I left, they kind of 9 made a determination on what was why -. What 10 was the reason. I know we were going through 11 the process of auditing and fixing some 12 cameras. But those specific SHU cameras, I 13 wasn't aware of the extent. 14 MR. : Okay. Let's just really 15 quickly review -- 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- the SHU camera 18 documentation. Were you ever provided any 19 documents of a camera that actually was working 20 in the SHU? 21 MR. : You mean, the day of the 22 Epstein thing? 23 MR. : Right, right. At any 24 time. 25 MR. : I don't recall. EFTA00119355

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 338 1 MR. : So, were you provided 2 with this? This is right outside of 3 MR. : This was a -- 4 MR. : -- Ten South. 5 MR. : -- that says camera angle 6 out of Ten South. 7 MR. : Right. Were you ever 8 provided with that, as far as -- 9 MR. : It looks -- 10 MR. : I think from -- 11 MR. : -- it looks familiar, but I 12 don't -- 13 MR. : -- from 14 MR. he might have. 15 MR. : Okay. But you don't 16 remember specifically? 17 MR. : Yeah. I don't specific. 18 MR. : Okay. And then, just 19 while we are here, I guess, what are these 20 doors right to the right of this picture? 21 MR. : This, this door goes into 22 Ten South. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : And then, this one, I think 25 is a utility room door. I'm not sure. EFTA00119356

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 339 1 MR. : Okay. So, the door that 2 says "46" goes into Ten South? 3 MR. : That looks like the Ten 4 South door. Oh, wait, wait. Yeah. The phone 5 is -. Yeah. That is Ten South. It looks like 6 Ten South. 7 MR. : And what are we looking 8 at down here? 9 MR. : So, this is the, right here 10 is the officer's station area. 11 MR. : And do you - based upon 12 that - do you know what tier that would be 13 right there? 14 MR. : Oh, man. You got 15 (Indiscernible *03:59:02) stopped. Let me see. 16 Is that G and H tier, I think, if I remember. 17 MR. : And what would be right 18 to the right of the officer's station? 19 MR. : Oh. Wait. G. H. I. J. 20 A. I don't remember if that was I and J. That 21 22 MR. : Would this be L tier up 23 here? 24 MR. : Yeah. L and M tier. That's 25 what -. EFTA00119357

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 340 1 MR. : So, right up, right to 2 the right of the officer's station, looking at 3 this picture -- 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : -- would be L. And 3- 6 that where Epstein was housed? 7 MR. : I believe he was on the L 8 tier. 9 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 10 initialing and dating that? 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : So, here is a map that we 13 were previously provided. Does this look like, 14 then -? So, this is where we were that this 15 camera angle is focusing down here on the 16 officer's station. This is L tier. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : On the second level. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : And this is where Epstein 21 would have been housed. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Does that look right? 24 MR. : That looks right. 25 MR. : Okay. Is this L tier EFTA00119358

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 341 1 here? 2 MR. : That's L tier. 3 MR. : Does this look like what 4 would have been Epstein's door? I know you 5 can't really see because of the police 6 crossings -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. -- on it. 9 MR. : I noticed it. The crime 10 scene tape. 11 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 12 reason to believe that that wouldn't be 13 Epstein's door? 14 MR. : What do you mean? 15 MR. : As far as, I know we 16 can't see the number -- 17 MR. : Yeah. I don't know the 18 number, but I'm taking your word for it, that 19 that is. 20 MR. : Okay. Now, if you see, 21 this is L tier range. And at the very end, you 22 see this camera. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Should that camera have 25 been recording? EFTA00119359

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. And is that a 3 camera that I'm actually looking at right 4 there? 5 MR. : That is a camera. 6 MR. HAYES: Was that camera recording? 7 MR. : Sir, do you know if the 8 camera was recording? 9 MR. : I didn't see. After I left, 10 I guess they said there were camera issues, but 11 I don't know what, I wasn't provided 12 information on what specific cameras were 13 working or not. 14 MR. : So, they didn't tell you 15 if they were working or not? 16 MR. : Well, remember, I was 17 removed. 18 MR. : I just didn't know if you 19 found out on the 10th or 11th. 20 MR. : No. I was removed on the, 21 you know, they said there were some camera 22 issues, and then, what they were doing, they 23 had the FBI came in, and took hard drives, and 24 I guess they were working to see what was 25 working and what wasn't working? EFTA00119360

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Can you initial and date 2 that? 3 MR. : I'm not going to get into 4 this since he wasn't aware that they weren't 5 recording. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. HAYES: Boy, I'm impressed by your 8 thoroughness, I'll tell you that much. 9 MR. : That's why they put me on 10 it. I'm -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. HAYES: You're very thorough? 13 MR. : -- yes. 14 MR. HAYES: You know, if you, if you are a 15 good trial lawyer, you know, allegedly a good 16 trial lawyer, a lot of times, you are not 17 supposed to be thorough. You are supposed to 18 put an idea in the jury's head, right? Where 19 you can see they're invulnerable, stay on that 20 fucking idea, because if you are going to be 21 thorough, you have to bring out something that 22 you don't want to bring out. You know, so you 23 to speak to the things, but you know you got 24 them. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119361

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 344 1 MR. : So, this is an email that 2 was received. Who's 3 MR. : He's the facilities manager. 4 MR. : Okay. So, is this what I 5 wanted to show you? Hold on. Now, did you 6 print out the one that I sent you this morning? 7 MR. : Is that -. That should be 8 the last thing on the -. 9 MR. : Okay. I'm not going to 10 get into those. So, you weren't aware that the 11 cameras were not - or you are not aware if the 12 cameras were or were not recording -- 13 MR. : We had camera -- 14 MR. : -- in the SHU? 15 MR. : -- no. We had camera issues 16 throughout the institution. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : So, I don't know which 19 specific one, because we had Mr. working 20 on a project, to get some money for it. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : But when it came to that 23 specific night, I didn't know if they were 24 working or not. 25 MR. : Were you ever told that, EFTA00119362

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 345 1 either on August 8th or August 9th, that the 2 cameras were not recording in the SHU? 3 MR. : I heard - yes - I was told 4 that there were some issues with the cameras 5 MR. : On either the 8th or the 6 9th, prior to Epstein? 7 MR. : -- no. I'm talking about 8 afterwards -- 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah, no -- 10 MR. : -- when it happened. 11 MR. : I'm saying -. So 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : -- August 10th is the day 14 he is found. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : On August 9th or August 17 8th, even, leading up to Epstein being found, 18 were you ever informed that cameras were not 19 recording? 20 MR. : No. I wasn't told about 21 cameras. 22 MR. : All right. So, based on 23 our investigation, we learned that MCC, SIS 24 Lieutenant 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119363

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 346 1 MR. : -- and that AW 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : -- became aware on August 4 8th, 2019, that at least some of the MCC 5 cameras were not recording. They contacted 6 comtech , and may have also 7 notified Captain . Did you ever 8 hear anything about that? 9 MR. : I knew prior that there was 10 some cameras in the institution that needed to 11 be fixed, but not specifically the SHU, no. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : And would have that been 15 based upon what they found? The AW and 16 SIS Lieutenant 17 MR. : No. Because we had had some 18 issues with cameras, and we were trying to seek 19 funding. So, and we were trying to see, okay, 20 what was working and what to get fixed. But 21 specifically, in SHU, no. 22 MR. : All right. So, only 23 because, you said that you were trying to get 24 fundinged. Did you know that there were 25 already cameras at the institution, and that's EFTA00119364

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 347 1 what they were able to replace when the FBI 2 took the cameras on the 10th, they were able to 3 immediately replace them with the cameras that 4 were onsite? 5 MR. : So, cameras all -. 6 Institutions always have, like, backup cameras 7 to fix what is there. But I was talking about 8 funding to replace the whole system. 9 MR. : So, this was from fiscal 10 year 2018 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : -- back in September. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : This is a memorandum for 15 you, from a acting facilities 16 manager. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : And these are all the 19 different documents that go with it, regarding 20 a new camera system that was purchased. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : It was, it looks like 23 there was $800,000. 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : For this total. These EFTA00119365

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 348 1 are all the documents that - here you go - this 2 is an approval of your September 11th, 2018 3 request. So, this is a memorandum for 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. III from, it 6 looks like a (Phonetic Sp. 7 *04:05:31). 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : The assistant director 10 for administration. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : It says, request to 13 exceed the spending limit of $50,000 on a work 14 request number 8158, replace camera system at 15 MCC New York. This work request is to replace 16 the current degraded camera system. The total 17 cost of this work is not to exceed $800,000." 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Then, at the bottom, it 20 says, "If you have any questions, please call 21 me or have your staff contact," and how do you 22 say that name? Do you know? 23 (Phonetic Sp. *04:05:57)? 24 MR. -: 25 MR. -: the EFTA00119366

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 349 1 (Phonetic Sp. *04:06:00). Chief facility 2 manager branch." 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : And it says, "At the 5 phone number." And then, here are the, you 6 know, the work orders for that. So, we have 7 spoken with SigNet, who was the camera provider 8 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- they said that on or 11 around October or November of 2018, they were 12 delivered. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : And then, talking with 15 the (Indiscernible 16 *04:06:22) -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- city manager, he said 19 that they started working on the infrastructure 20 of the camera project on or around March 2019. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : To get everything ready 23 for the new camera system that was onsite to be 24 installed, and said that -. 25 MR. : They had to run wires. But EFTA00119367

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 350 1 the old system was there. So, they had to run 2 wires. And they had to get a contract done. 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : In order, because you needed 5 the comtechs, and I forget the wording that 6 they used, is to run the cables, to get the new 7 camera system in. So. 8 MR. : And do you know how long 9 that typically takes to run the new wires and 10 all that? 11 MR. : You would have to have the 12 staff (Indiscernible *04:06:58). We didn't 13 have the staffing. 14 MR. : So, were there two people 15 TDY'd, though, in order to do that? 16 MR. : They started TDY'ing people 17 in, to come in. 18 MR. HAYES: Wait a minute. Can the staff 19 run the new wires, or you have to get an 20 electrician to run the wires? 21 MR. : No. We have staff that are 22 qualified to do it, but then, some of them were 23 new and really didn't know how to do it. So 24 MR. HAYES: Okay. 25 MR. : -- you know, it was -. EFTA00119368

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3r_ 1 MR. : So, according to Mr. 2 , it says, "The camera system was 3 scheduled to start March 17th, 2019, and it 4 started on schedule. When I arrived TDY 5 February 2019, we only had one communication 6 technician -- 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : -- therefore, after 9 talking to the regional office, they started a 10 project to assist in funding and labor. So, we 11 were able to start the week of March 17th, 2019 12 for the camera system, and all other 13 infrastructure throughout the institution. 14 MR. HAYES: St. Patrick's Day. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Below is the email sent 17 to all the institution from 18 (Phonetic Sp. *04:07:49), the northeast 19 regional -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : -- facilities 22 administrator." But point being, it looks like 23 that project had started. Correct? 24 MR. : It has started, but -- 25 MR. : And I only say that EFTA00119369

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3' 1 because I wanted to make sure you weren't 2 confused, because you were saying we were 3 looking for funding. 4 MR. : No. No. I misspoke. What 5 I'm saying is, I meant that the project 6 started, but the cameras hadn't been replaced. 7 Because they were still running wires for the, 8 to get the new system started. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : So, that unit still had the 11 old cameras. 12 MR. : Right. But then, the 13 camera system was actually onsite, and they 14 were working on it? 15 MR. : Well, yeah, but they weren't 16 - you didn't have enough staff to install, to, 17 you know, to rewire the whole place, because we 18 had, we wanted to put one, some on the ranges 19 that never had cameras. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : So, it was a tedious 22 project. 23 MR. : I see. 24 MR. : That required us to TDY 25 staff from other institutions. And then, you EFTA00119370

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 353 1 know -. 2 MR. : Yeah. And were you kept 3 apprise of where they were on that? On the 4 camera project. 5 MR. : I would acquire about it, 6 like, where we were with it. But we were to 7 the point where we were bringing people in from 8 other institutions. To get it done. 9 MR. : Okay. And do you know 10 when the camera system was scheduled to 11 actually be installed, or was it ever 12 scheduled? 13 MR. : From - and if I remember 14 right - it was a matter of before you even 15 installed it, you had to run the wiring for it. 16 MR. : Right. And that's what - 17 18 MR. : (Indiscernible *04:09:13). 19 MR. : I think was -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : -- what they were saying 22 in March of 2019. 23 MR. : But that had -- 24 MR. : That -. 25 MR. : -- been completed. Because EFTA00119371

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 354 1 you had to TDY people there. And to get it 2 done. 3 MR. : And they never provided 4 you with an update as far as, like, when it 5 would actually be completed? 6 MR. : It was still ongoing. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Now -- 9 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:09:27). 10 MR. : -- but after I left, they 11 got people in there and completed it. 12 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. Because I 13 think, I think that whole week, they were able 14 to complete the whole thing. Correct? 15 MR. : I don't know when. 16 MR. : You don't know? 17 MR. : You know, because they had 18 people come in from different institutions. 19 MR. : Now, is that, did they 20 ever, did the facilities manager, Captain 21 Whomever, ever explain to you how bad the 22 system was, and that it kept on shutting down, 23 and stopping, you know, cameras weren't 24 recording? 25 MR. : I mean, we would have EFTA00119372

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 355 1 incidents where, you know, something would 2 happen, and we tried to go back and find the 3 tape, and we couldn't. So, and it would break 4 down, they would fix it. So, I mean, we did 5 have issues like that before. But it was the 6 age of the cameras. The -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- you know, we had 9 infrastructure issues. So. 10 MR. : Because, yeah, the 11 comtech claims that, you know, like, he had 12 been, I mean, he's a very soft-spoken person, 13 but like, basically, screaming at the top of 14 his lungs as much as a very soft-spoken person 15 can, we need to fix these things, this is a 16 continual problem. 17 MR. : So, here is what it is. We 18 don't have money readily available at an 19 institution to fix it. That money comes from 20 what we call buildings and funds. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Which is funded by Congress. 23 So, you would have to talk to somebody in the 24 region about what the regional budget is, but 25 other institutions have issues going on. EFTA00119373

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : But being that -- 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : -- we have all these 4 cameras already onsite, and they had already 5 done the wiring for, you know, at least six 6 months prior to this -- 7 MR. : Well, not all the wiring -- 8 MR. they -. 9 MR. was done. 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah. He just, he didn't say 11 the wiring was done. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : No, no, no. I'm just 14 saying, like, is that, I'm just trying to get a 15 feel for what was the plan here, and who was 16 responsible. 17 MR. : Well, the plan was to get 18 the manpower to get it installed, but at the 19 time, we only had one person. Which was 20 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : So, one person can't -- 23 MR. : Well, and the TDY staff. 24 MR. : -- right, but even the TDY 25 staff came, they did help. You know, but then, EFTA00119374

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 357 1 we also had other TDY staff that were coming in 2 for, because of our staffing issues. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : But -. 5 MR. : Well, that's what 6 told us. That the TDY staff that was assigned 7 for him sometimes were getting put on the 8 custody posts. Do you know if that is accurate 9 or not? 10 MR. : We might have had to do it a 11 time or two because we wanted to staff. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 14 MR. : And whose responsibility 15 were the cameras? To make sure that those 16 things were going to be operational and working 17 properly. 18 MR. : Well, it's not a matter of 19 who was responsible. It's, like, working on 20 getting it installed. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : So, there was no deadline as 23 far as, you know, okay, when they had to be up. 24 You know, they just had to be installed. 25 MR. : Okay. Because we were EFTA00119375

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 told the cameras are the captain's baby. Is 2 that accurate? 3 MR. : No. No. It's not. 4 MR. HAYES: Yeah. That -- 5 MR. : It's not. 6 MR. HAYES: -- that can't be true. 7 Captains don't know how to install it. 8 MR. : Yeah. He doesn't -- 9 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:12:11). 10 MR. : No, no, no. Not to 11 install them. But to make sure that they are 12 operational, and get the right people to 13 actually get it done. 14 MR. : Well, I -- 15 MR. HAYES: That can't be right, either. 16 MR. : -- well, I -- 17 MR. HAYES: Because how the fuck would you 18 know what -- 19 MR. : -- right. I -- 20 MR. : Well, because -- 21 MR. HAYES: -- who the right people is. 22 MR. : -- because what we were 23 told is that this was constantly happening, 24 whereas the cameras would stop working. And 25 then, nothing would be recorded. EFTA00119376

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 359 1 MR. : So -. 2 MR. : The only way you find out 3 that that is happening is to physically check 4 the DVR recording to see if there has a light 5 on it, or if you try to attempt to rewind, and 6 you are unable to. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : Because everything is 9 still live monitored feed, showing, so you 10 can't tell just by looking at the cameras. 11 It's only when you try to rewind them, that you 12 can say, oh my gosh, they are not recording. 13 MR. : Right. But that, it wasn't 14 just as simple as that. I mean, there were 15 technical aspects of it that you had to check 16 to see if the cameras are working or not. 17 MR. : Oh. Absolutely. 18 MR. : Right. And the captain 19 basically looking to see if, okay, is the 20 screen up? And then, is it recording? But 21 there was some instances where the hard drives 22 weren't working, and you don't know that until 23 you get deep into it, into the system. So, I 24 wouldn't, you know -- 25 MR. : That's -- EFTA00119377

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 360 1 MR. : -- put that -. 2 MR. : -- that's what he just 3 stated. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Like, the fact that the only 6 way we would know if the hard drives were not 7 working is by going in 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : -- to check the video. And 10 the video, there is no videos that they can 11 pull back. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : That's when they know the 14 hard drives stopped recording. 15 MR. : Stopped recording. And 16 then, and look at them. But then, this is, you 17 know, there was other technical aspects of i- 18 that, you know -- 19 MR. HAYES: I can't imagine that 20 MR. : -- yeah -- 21 MR. HAYES: -- the captain would know. 22 sure as hell wouldn't. 23 MR. right. 24 MR. : So, I guess, knowing, 25 though, that this was, like, a reoccurring EFTA00119378

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 problem, and the fact that, well, what we 2 didn't say is, it seems, it appears that the 3 cameras actually stopped recording all the back 4 in July, and for half of the institution. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Who should have made sure 7 that that camera system was replaced, and that 8 we had an operational camera system in there? 9 MR. : Well, the centralized area, 10 and I don't know where the break down was. So, 11 if it's a centralized area, then it would be, 12 you know, within our facility department has 13 access to -- 14 MR. : Well, the camera -- 15 MR. : -- the comm -- 16 MR. : -- you are asking where 17 the cameras are? 18 MR. : -- no, the comm room. 19 MR. : Yeah. The comm room. 20 Where these recorders were, were all in the SIS 21 secured area. 22 MR. : Right. The actual cameras. 23 But where - if you go out - where -? And I 24 don't know the word, what's the word? Where 25 your centralized main area is for the whole EFTA00119379

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 362 1 system. Yeah. That SIS areas has the cameras. 2 But that's fine. 3 MR. : Not the control room. 4 But it's back around where, it's a locked door 5 within the SIS locked room, where the actual 6 DVR recording and rack is, and everything. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's 9 10 MR. : But -- 11 MR. : -- is that what you are 12 talking about? 13 MR. : -- that, but there is also 14 another, should be another area in the 15 institution, just for the communications. 16 Where everything comes into. So, I don't know 17 if it was back there or whatever, but our 18 facilities department, you know, their 19 communication guys check that, too, if there is 20 something intricate with it. 21 MR. : Now, so, was either Mr. 22 , or , how do you pronounce his 23 name? 24 MR. -: 25 MR. : Was , or Captain EFTA00119380

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 363 1 , were either of them expressing the need 2 to you at all, to, hey, we need to get these 3 things fixed? 4 MR. : I mean, the request had been 5 sent up. 6 MR. : Yeah, yeah. No. 7 MR. : So, yeah. 8 MR. : And these were all 9 onsite. 10 MR. : Right. So, yeah. ITcl mean, 11 we were going through -- 12 MR. : And again -- 13 MR. : -- the process of getting 14 the system up and running. 15 MR. : But there was no set 16 schedule for when it was actually going to be 17 completed? 18 MR. : No. Because we had to TDY 19 people. Sometimes we got them in, sometimes we 20 couldn't get them. And then, towards the end, 21 you know, boil down to money, with getting 22 people in to come fix them. 23 MR. : And when people are TDY, 24 do you - when you say boil down to money - does 25 that come out of -- EFTA00119381

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 364 1 MR. : It comes out of our 2 MR. MCC's pocket? 3 MR. it comes out of our 4 budget. It comes out of budget. It comes out 5 of the region sometimes gives it. Plus, on top 6 of that, we were for TDY to come to our 7 correctional post, because we were so short. 8 MR. : All right. So, what 9 would you say is the main reason, then, that 10 the cameras were onsite, but not installed? 11 Lack of manpower and funding? 12 MR. : Well, manpower to get it in. 13 And then, it kind of boiled down to funding. 14 You know, to keep TDY people, to get it done. 15 MR. HAYES: But do you have money, you can 16 really keep the TDY people. You don't have 17 money -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. HAYES: -- you can't keep them. You 20 know? 21 MR. : But again, there is no, 22 there was no actual set schedule of it will be 23 operational by the end of this calendar year -- 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : -- or anything like that? EFTA00119382

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 365 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : That wasn't discussed? 3 MR. : That wasn't discussed. We 4 were trying, you know, doing the best we can 5 with the hand we were dealt. 6 MR. : Okay. And Monday morning 7 quarterbacking that. Should it have been 8 discussed, or planned ahead, that these cameras 9 be installed? 10 MR. : Would -? I don't understand 11 the question. 12 MR. : Well, being that there 13 is, it seems that there was potentially around 14 two weeks of no cameras, and in the SHU, no 15 cameras. Aside from that one outside of Ten 16 South. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : That were recording. 19 MR. : But that wasn't known -- 20 MR. : But it was, according to 21 the, you know, according to the facilities, as 22 well as the comtech, they said it was very well 23 known that this continually happened, and that 24 the comtech guy continually had to rebuild hard 25 drives because they kept on crapping out and EFTA00119383

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 366 1 not recording. 2 MR. : I mean, it is an antiquated 3 system. 4 MR. : Right, right, right. 5 MR. : So, when you go down, yeah, 6 obviously, you go fix it. But nobody knew 7 until after the fact that you, you know, that 8 you had a system that was out for two weeks. 9 You know, I mean, you go to any other, any 10 institution, the cameras go down. 11 MR. : Sure, sure. 12 MR. : And when the system breaks, 13 somebody discovers it, and they fix it. But as 14 far as getting the new system up, we were 15 working on it. 16 MR. : Okay. You want to follow 17 up with any of that? 18 MR. : You mentioned no one knew. 19 But the problem was, according to the comtech, 20 the system failed, the motherboard had to be 21 replaced on the 29th -- 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- they had a failure. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : And then, of course, no one EFTA00119384

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 367 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 checked it until the 8th. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : August 8th. When the AW and the Lieutenant went in and they tried to MR. : Right. MR. : -- review video. Now, being that they identified the system wasn't working that day -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : -- how soon should it have been fixed? MR. : What do you mean? When they -? MR. : On the 8th. MR. : Right. MR. : This is two days before the, that, that Epstein was found. If they identified on the 8th that, hey, listen, the camera is not working. It's technically not recording. How much of a priority is it to make sure that those cameras are up and running immediately? MR. : It's a priority. So, what happens is, and we have run into this before, EFTA00119385

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 368 1 the parts. Sometimes the parts weren't readily 2 available. So, you have to go somewhere and 3 call for the parts, and depending on where it 4 is at, it could be in California, or whatever. 5 So, you got to see how long it takes to get 6 that part. 7 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 8 MR. : Over to repair. 9 MR. HAYES: And the key part for my 10 heating system -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. HAYES: -- is in fucking Belarus. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : My understanding is they, it 15 was the hard drive that they needed. Right? 16 And the hard drive was sitting with the 17 computer services. 18 MR. : Yeah. On the 8th. They 19 weren't able to get it. 20 MR. : I don't know. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : And on the 9th, they got 23 it. But then, he claims that he wasn't able to 24 gain access to the room because it was an SIS 25 shop, and he needed to go until later in the EFTA00119386

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 369 1 day, and they were gone. 2 MR. : I mean 3 MR. : And on the 10th -. 4 MR. we have an emergency keys 5 to get into any area of the institution. So, 6 if he is saying he couldn't get in to the SIS 7 office -- 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : -- you got the captain, you 10 know, we got the techs that work in there. 11 We've got their glass is behind - what we call 12 in control center - behind a box. You know, we 13 can get that box open. 14 MR. : So, he said that the only 15 way to be able to get into it is if he broke 16 the glass 17 MR. : He can break the glass. 18 MR. : mm-hmm. It's okay 19 that he would have done that? And then, should 20 have he? 21 MR. : Yeah. If you couldn't 22 reach, you could just -. Well, he should have 23 gone to the captain or somebody and said, hey, 24 captain, I need to get into your SIS office. 25 MR. : Do you think it's at all EFTA00119387

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 370 1 acceptable, if knew on August 8th that these 2 cameras were down, and he didn't actually start 3 working on it, or at least, I guess he was 4 working on getting the parts, but then got the 5 parts again on the, some time on the 9th, 6 claims he didn't work on it because he couldn't 7 get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was 8 going to work on it on the 10th, on that 9 Saturday. 10 MR. : So, the question -- 11 MR. : -- and what is your -? 12 MR. : -- the question I would pose 13 to you is, did he notify anybody that he 14 couldn't get in there? Did he make any attempt 15 to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey, 16 I need to get into that office to get a part to 17 do it, because if he had told the captain that, 18 the captain would have got that office open for 19 him. 20 MR. : Yeah. I agree with you. 21 It's a he says that the MCC was a different 22 So, at any other BOP institution, in the 23 country, that would have happened with, his 24 experience taught him that, at the MCC, 25 basically it could wait until tomorrow. EFTA00119388

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. HAYES: They wait until tomorrow. 2 MR. : So, so that's his opinion. 3 But again, I'm going to pose a question. Who 4 did he bring up the issue to? Because my thing 5 is, if you know it's an emergency, and it's a 6 situation to say this is the MCC, is a cop-out. 7 MR. : And is it, would that be 8 classified as an emergency? 9 MR. : If the cameras are down, 10 yeah. 11 MR. : That is an emergency. So 12 13 MR. : Let's get them back. 14 MR. : -- he should have 15 absolutely gotten into that room -- 16 MR. : He should have gotten -- 17 MR. one way or another? 18 MR. in there, and he knows he 19 could have gotten into the room, because you 20 can, we can break - if he said that stuff was 21 sitting in there, whatever room he said it in 22 there, guess what? You can break glass. You 23 can break glass after hours, if you need to, 24 and it's an emergency to get in, into an area. 25 MR. : So, his claim is that, he EFTA00119389

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 has rebuilt these things so many times. And 2 every knew that these cameras needed to be 3 reinstalled, and he had been saying that they 4 needed to be reinstalled. And now he's being 5 looked at as the fall guy. 6 MR. HAYES: You know, it sounds like he 7 could, you know 8 MR. : I don't -. This is not an 9 issue of being the fall guy. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : So, let's take every issue 12 we just talked about. We talked about the 13 camera project that we were working on. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : We were getting the people 16 in there to working. So now, let's talk about 17 the specific issue that you were talking about. 18 He did not notify anybody to get into that 19 room, to get to that part. That part was to 20 fix the current system. It had nothing to do 21 with the new system coming in. This is, he is 22 saying that this was a part that we needed to 23 fix, get put in, to deal with the current 24 system-. 25 MR. : Now, what about the fact EFTA00119390

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 373 1 that Lieutenant is saying both she and 2 the AW knew that the cameras were down on 3 August 8th. They told to fix them. And 4 they also notified Lieutenant , so that 5 she not only notified the captain, but wrote a 6 memo and provided it to him about the cameras 7 being down on the 8th. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : So, at that point, what 10 are the responsibility of the captain and the 11 AW? 12 MR. : So, what the captain does is 13 he notifies facilities where works for, 14 and says, hey, the cameras are broken, you need 15 to fix them. 16 MR. : So, should the captain 17 have, on the 9th, ensured that those things 18 were fixed? 19 MR. : Well, I don't know what 20 conversation he had with facilities to say we 21 are getting, you know, was it being fixed or 22 not. 23 MR. HAYES: Well, do you know 24 (Indiscernible *04:23:25). If he knows to tell 25 somebody on the 9th, is it possible to fix it EFTA00119391

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 on the 9th? 2 MR. : Well, the 9th is a 3 Friday. So, the 8th is when we are told that 4 he was told, informed, learned. 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : So, we have all Friday on 7 the 9th to make sure it's done. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : On the 10th, 10 unfortunately, is when -- 11 MR. : But -- 12 MR. : -- we know the severity 13 of the issue. 14 MR. : -- but that's my point. You 15 knew that, okay, you were made aware that the 16 cameras needed to be fixed. Okay. So, your 17 answers, what you are saying is, I couldn't get 18 into a certain area, so -- 19 MR. : Well, that's what 20 is saying. Yeah. 21 MR. : -- but that, okay, but -- 22 MR. : But my question is, 23 should the AW or the captain have followed up 24 with that, to make sure that it was actually 25 being done. EFTA00119392

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 375 1 MR. : And to them, I don't, you 2 know, I don't want to make the assumption 3 because I don't know. There could have been 4 some follow up. I don't want to speak on it, 5 but you know, if he had told him something on 6 the 8th, you know, I don't know the 7 conversations that were taking place between 8 them. Like, where is that, and what is he 9 saying? Right now, I'm responding to what he 10 is saying, and it makes no sense. 11 MR. : Yeah. No. I would just 12 think that, you know, being a captain or an AW 13 would be -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : -- whoa. The cameras are 16 down in the institution? 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : Well, let's make sure 19 that those things are back up -- 20 MR. : So, and -- 21 MR. : -- so they would at least 22 check back in on the 9th, and say -- 23 MR. : -- and then -- 24 MR. : -- where are we at on 25 this thing? EFTA00119393

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 376 1 MR. : -- but then, I don't know, 2 you know, what that conversation was. I don't 3 know if, on the 9th, even came to work. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : I don't know. He could have 6 said -- 7 MR. : Well, we do -- 8 MR. : -- oh, well, I'm not going 9 10 MR. : -- we know. But yeah. 11 MR. : -- huh? 12 MR. : And we know. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : So, I don't know. I don't 16 want to speculate on that part. 17 MR. : Yeah, yeah, no. That's 18 what we are trying to tell you. Is, like 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : -- we know he was there. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : On the 8th, he couldn't 23 get the parts. On the 9th, he got the parts. 24 But then, he said, he tried to get into the SIS 25 office. He was told by the - it wasn't an SIS EFTA00119394

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 377 1 tech, because there were only two people there. 2 It was somebody that -- 3 MR. : Monitored. 4 MR. : -- monitored the 5 telephones. I think he's now retired. Tay? 6 MR. : Tay. Yeah. 7 MR. : Was there. And he said, 8 I'm getting ready to leave, and he can't come 9 in here without me. And then, he said, I 10 didn't have access to the room after that. So, 11 my plan was to come in on the 10th, the 12 Saturday, because I was coming in anyway. And 13 that's what I was going to work on. 14 MR. : He's the com shop. He can 15 go anywhere, where there are computers. 16 MR. : So, that is not an 17 acceptable answer that he provided? 18 MR. : I don't understand that 19 answer. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : It's because that room is 22 not in where the SIS shop is. That's the phone 23 monitor room. That's the camera room. 24 MR. : And the key for the camera 25 room is how, I think it's only the SIS EFTA00119395

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 378 1 lieutenant, and the SIA that has the keys for 2 it. 3 MR. : That's what the SIS 4 office said -- 5 MR. : So, the -- 6 MR. : -- they said that -. 7 MR. : -- the phone monitor is, 8 he's in the SIS, but he draws keys to get into 9 that room. So, that room is all -. And you 10 can draw keys to get into that room. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : When you saw draw keys, what 13 do you mean? 14 MR. : Well, you get them from 15 control center. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : You know? 19 MR. : Well, we were told by 20 Lieutenant , the only way he could have 21 gotten them is to break the glass, which he 22 could have done. But 23 MR. : You could have broken the 24 glass. And that time of time it was 8:00. The 25 captain is there. The security officer who EFTA00119396

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 379 1 controls all the keys in the institution is 2 there. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : You can go to them and say, 5 hey, I need -- 6 MR. HAYES: The key. 7 MR. : Now -- 8 MR. : I need the key. 9 MR. : -- now, did either the 10 captain or the AW inform you of this issue? 11 MR. : No. I don't -- 12 MR. : So, you didn't know -- 13 MR. I don't 14 MR. : -- anything about this? 15 MR. recall anything about 16 that issue. 17 MR. : Should have they? 18 MR. : So, if -- 19 MR. : If it was a Thursday, 20 they found out, and it was all -. You weren't 21 there for that. 22 MR. : I weren't there on Friday. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : I wasn't there on Friday. 25 MR. : You weren't even -- EFTA00119397

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. 2 MR. 3 MR. 4 MR. : : 380 Yeah. : -- there on Friday. So, you know : And who - I'm sorry - can 5 6 you remind me, Friday? who was acting in your stead on 7 MR. : I believe it was , I think. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : So. 11 MR. : Now -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 15 MR. there. : So, you weren't even 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Our understanding is, I think 18 19 Captain about 8:00 p.m. was in the institution, too, 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : On the 9th. 22 MR. : On the 9th. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : So -- 25 MR. : On Friday. EFTA00119398

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 381 1 MR. : -- could have been to 2 any time during that period? 3 MR. : He could have seen him. I 4 mean, just, you can't -. If it's an emergency 5 to get something for, I don't understand. That 6 is not -. 7 MR. : No. That's great to 8 know. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : About this. So, you say 11 that's not acceptable. 12 MR. : No. You can, you can get in 13 there. So, I don't know -. 14 MR. HAYES: Well, one of the things is, is 15 in prison, you need a camera. Yeah. 16 MR. : Right. Especially in the 17 SHU. 18 MR. HAYES: Right. Especially in the SHU. 19 MR. : Now, who was responsible 20 to have the new camera system installed? 21 MR. : What do you mean as far as 22 responsible? 23 MR. : Like, who had overall 24 oversight on that? 25 MR. : The facilities manager. EFTA00119399

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mr. 2 MR. : Mr. . Yeah. So, he - 3 4 MR. : All right. 5 MR. : -- gets the people in there, 6 but we're allocating things. But again, I want 7 to say, that was, you know, with manpower. 8 MR. : Okay. Now, you've pretty 9 much answered this, and you can say it's the 10 same answer, but I just want to read you the 11 question. What are your thoughts on the fact 12 that the new camera system was there since 13 October 2018, but it wasn't installed after the 14 Epstein incident that occurred on August 10th, 15 2019? 16 MR. : It's the manpower. 17 MR. : Manpower. 18 MR. : Yeah. You know, getting 19 people, qualified people in there to do it. I 20 mean, one person couldn't do that. It was, and 21 we were putting in new cameras in new areas. 22 So, he needed more people. One person couldn't 23 do it. 24 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 25 initialing? And don't have to go through this, EFTA00119400

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 383 1 just the top is fine. Anything more on the 2 camera issue? 3 MR. HAYES: Oh, Christ. You got more 4 issues? 5 MR. : No. I think the -. We 6 have one more issue, and then just a couple of 7 questions based upon the BOP's findings. It 8 does say that there's leaks information. Where 9 are those emails? 10 MR. : It was in -. Did we mix that 11 up? 12 MR. : Here it is. So, here is 13 two emails that were sent both from 14 One to you, and one to (Phonetic 15 Sp. *04:29:13). 16 MR. : Yeah. He was the acting 17 director at the time. 18 MR. : Director of the BOP? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Okay. So, the first one 21 was on August 10th, 2019, at 6:14 p.m. to you. 22 And the subject is, "Urgent request. Potential 23 leak in hospital regarding Epstein's death." 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : It looks like -- EFTA00119401

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 384 1 MR. HAYES: You mean -- 2 MR. : -- where is the -- 3 MR. HAYES: -- media leak? 4 MR. : -- yeah. It says, 5 "Please ensure this information is given to the 6 OIG FBI. Thanks." 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : And then, this next one, 9 like you said, is from to the director. 10 Subject, "Prison guards skip mandatory checks 11 before Epstein's death." This, the body says, 12 "Couldn't see the entire article on my phone, 13 but I wouldn't be surprised there are staff 14 that are paid contacts for local media outlets. 15 This has also been discussed at the department 16 level, all the way to the White House. And who 17 knows who may have overheard those 18 discussions." 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Do you know anything 21 about leaks in the media from the MCC? 22 MR. : So, what happened was, when 23 (Phonetic Sp. *04:30:17) came to see 24 me, the issue we had was - and I told him about 25 it - was there was a article in the Post that EFTA00119402

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 385 1 took a picture of our staff, and our staff rode 2 with Epstein on it. So, I told about 3 it, and I guess they said one of the paramedics 4 had leaked the information. 5 MR. : Like, took a picture of 6 them, like -- 7 MR. : Took a picture -- 8 MR. : -- posing with him? 9 MR. : -- took a picture of them 10 coming in the room, when they got to the 11 emergency room. Took a picture of Epstein 12 being rolled in. And our - what do you call 13 it? - and our staff. So, I talked to 14 about that, and then, I had also told him that, 15 you know, there might be some staff, you know, 16 because, and I didn't know where it was coming 17 from, because the information was just coming 18 out, you know, so quickly, and it was, like, 19 where is this, you know, coming from? So, I 20 called and made him aware, you know, told him 21 about it when he came on Sunday. But the main 22 one was because of the picture in the Post. 23 MR. : Now, who is it that you 24 suspect would have been leaking information to 25 him? EFTA00119403

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 386 1 MR. : I couldn't, I couldn't even 2 tell. But I just was, you know, with this 3 whole thing. You know, stuff would leak, had 4 been leaked out to the media, and you are, 5 like, where is this coming from? 6 MR. : Do you have any 7 suspicions, though? 8 MR. : I can't speculate. I mean - 9 10 MR. HAYES: That's my boy. I mean, I 11 don't know nothing. 12 MR. : (Indiscernible *04:31:48). 13 MR. : You're talking like an 14 attorney. 15 MR. : No, I mean -- 16 MR. HAYES: But like that, I don't know 17 nothing, but what I do know, I don't know. 18 MR. : I mean, I can't speculate. 19 I mean, the half of it was towards me. I mean, 20 so -. 21 MR. : Did you leak the 22 information, you mean? 23 MR. : No. I said it was towards 24 me. 25 MR. : Oh, you mean the EFTA00119404

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 387 1 2 3 4 information -- MR. MR. you? : Like, the negative press -- : -- and the negative to 5 MR. : -- yeah. It reverted back 6 to me. 7 MR. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : So, I mean, that's, you 9 know, and it was just, it was fast and furious. 10 MR. : So, like, negative things 11 to people, you believe someone in the BOP was 12 leaking negative information about you? 13 MR. : I don't -. I mean, I, you 14 know -- 15 MR. : Can you give me, like, an 16 example of what was leaked about you? 17 MR. : Well, I mean, you know, 18 stuff that happened, you know -- 19 MR. HAYES: Listen, the -- 20 MR. : -- and I'm not saying 21 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *04:32:26) 22 investigation was going on. 23 MR. : -- specifically -- 24 MR. HAYES: I mean, you know -- 25 MR. : -- specifically -- EFTA00119405

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 388 1 MR. HAYES: -- whose fault is it? 2 MR. : -- right. Towards me. But 3 it was just automatically the blame was, you 4 know, put on me. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : And then, you know, the 7 other part of it was, I don't know if it came 8 from the department. I don't know if it came 9 from the institution. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Because all that information 12 was going, you know -- 13 MR. : But did anybody -- 14 MR. up on different levels. 15 MR. : -- did anyone tell you 16 that they believed that a certain person was 17 leaking information? 18 MR. : No. I didn't hear if it was 19 a certain person. I didn't, you know? 20 MR. : Okay. And did you leak 21 any information to the media? 22 MR. : Absolutely not. 23 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 24 initialing and dating that? Do you believe, 25 though, somebody in the BOP was leaking EFTA00119406

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 389 1 information? 2 MR. : And I'm not -- 3 MR. : And I don't mean that 4 personally. I just mean -- 5 MR. : -- no. But -- 6 MR. : -- you know, you could 7 always get -- 8 MR. : - I don't -- 9 MR. : -- the second one under 10 there. 11 MR. : -- it could have been up to 12 the department, because the information was 13 going up to them. I mean -- 14 MR. : But I just mean, like, 15 based upon what information was being leaked, 16 do you believe that someone in the BOP - not 17 necessarily the MCC, I just mean BOP - was 18 leaking the information? 19 MR. : I will put it this way. The 20 Department of Justice might -- 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. because all the 23 information -- 24 MR. : Because it could be -- 25 MR. : -- was -. Yeah. EFTA00119407

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 390 1 MR. : OIG. FBI. 2 MR. : Initial. 3 MR. : Anybody. 4 MR. : It could have been anybody. 5 So, I don't want to -- 6 MR. : Gotcha. 7 MR. : -- kind of put it 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. : -- on one person. 10 MR. : All right. The last 11 actual topic, before we ask a couple about the, 12 a couple about the findings. Epstein's will. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : Do you know anything 15 about Epstein changing his will just prior to 16 his death? 17 MR. : Mo. 18 MR. : Had you ever heard that? 19 MR. : After the fact. 20 MR. : Right. And when you say 21 after the fact, how did you learn about it 22 after the fact? 23 MR. : I don't know. Reading it. 24 Or hearing it on the news. 25 MR. : Did you ever hear about EFTA00119408

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 391 1 it in an official capacity? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : All right. Do you know 4 if it's true? 5 MR. : Don't know. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. HAYES: He left this all to his 8 brother. Right? 9 MR. : I -- 10 MR. HAYES: Is that true? 11 MR. : I can't comment on 12 that kind of stuff. But what actions should 13 have been taken, or you don't know if it was. 14 If it was learned that Epstein's will had been 15 changed just prior to his death, do you believe 16 any specific actions should have been taken? 17 MR. : I don't know anything. I 18 mean, I can't comment on that. 19 MR. : Okay. So, that's the 20 last of the topics. Now, we have - 21 (Indiscernible *04:34:38) refer to it - I don't 22 think we have to refer to anything other than 23 the - where is that? 24 MR. : The after action? 25 MR. : Yeah. Do you have it? EFTA00119409

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 392 1 And I don't know what we actually need to cite 2 (Indiscernible *04:34:53) initial them. This 3 is the after action report. Is that -? That 4 the BOP created in response. So, just a few 5 quick questions on it. It says, "On August 6 1st, 2019, at 8:30 a.m., psychology documented 7 they were notified by correctional systems of a 8 form received from the United States Marshal 9 Service, the previous day, stating inmate 10 Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies." 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : Do you know anything 13 about that, and what transpired? 14 MR. : Wait. Read that again. 15 MR. : So, "On August." So, 16 just to refresh your memory of a time, 17 timeline. On July 30th, he comes off of 18 psychological 19 MR. : Psychological observation. 20 MR. : -- observation. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : And goes to the SHU. 23 "Two days later" - so, there's July 31st and 24 August 1st - "8:30 a.m., psychology documented 25 they were notified by correctional systems of a EFTA00119410

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 393 1 form received from the United States Marshal 2 Service, the previous day." So, I guess on 3 July 30th. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : The 31st, I mean. 6 "Stating inmate Epstein had reported suicidal 7 tendencies." This was the BOP's finding. Do 8 you know anything about that? 9 MR. : I don't know anything about 10 that. And that's before, when he first came in 11 the system, or -? 12 MR. : No. That was after he 13 came off of psychological observation. So, 14 after his actual first attempt at suicide. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : Or potential harm from 17 Tartaglione. 18 MR. : No. I didn't. 19 MR. : You don't know anything 20 about that? 21 MR. : Nuh-uh. 22 MR. : Okay. And do you know 23 anything about the suicidal tendencies that he 24 was showing? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00119411

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 394 1 MR. : No. All right. And 2 then, on the same date, August 1st, 2019, 3 again, this is after the Tartaglione incident. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : And after coming off of 6 psychological observation. "1:00 p.m. 7 Psychology conducts a suicide risk assessment 8 noting watch is not indicated, with a 9 recommendation for follow up in one week. The 10 delay in conducting this assessment is not 11 justified in the report." Did you learn 12 anything about that? 13 MR. : No. I don't. 14 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 15 MR. : I -- 16 MR. : And again -- 17 MR. : -- it's psychological. 18 MR. : -- this is just some of 19 the -- 20 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 21 MR. : -- the negative findings. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : We just want to know your 24 take on it. I don't expect you to know any, 25 all of this, or anything. EFTA00119412

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 395 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : It's just asking because 3 there's some negative findings. Okay. The 4 next one. It says, "Significant -- 5 MR. HAYES: Don't bring this guy in on 6 another case. All right? If the next time 7 this comes up, and he says, I'm going to bring 8 this guy, don't fucking do it. 9 MR. : It says, "Significant 10 discrepancies exist within Sentry, regarding 11 admission/release status, ARS." 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Sentry does not reflect 14 inmate Epstein being escorted from the 15 institution by the U.S. Marshal Service on July 16 31st, 2019. Although a signed prisoner remand 17 form is on file, documenting -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : having received him 20 from the U.S. Marshal Service. Additional 21 review revealed inmate Epstein departed the 22 institution for a total of four court 23 appearances, and only one of these occasions 24 was an ARS change made within Sentry. It 25 appears there is a culture of foregoing this EFTA00119413

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 396 1 vital function, due to the likelihood of the 2 inmate returning from court. This lapse in 3 procedure is a severe inmate accountability 4 deficiency." 5 MR. : Well, that statement is 6 incorrect. I know the regional office looked 7 into it and said that a pre-trial institution 8 can outcount an inmate to go into court. So, 9 he doesn't have to be keyed out on the ARS. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : So, the way they were doing 12 it, they looked at it after the fact, and said 13 there was nothing wrong with that. 14 MR. : So, they did re-review 15 this matter, and -- 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : -- said that there was -- 18 MR. : They were fine 19 MR. : -- they were doing it 20 MR. with it. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Yeah. Because they kept 23 thinking, when they were looking out, same 24 thing like you said, he was going out to court, 25 but they can outcount him in that area. EFTA00119414

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 397 1 MR. : All right. And what are 2 they talking about, like, pre-removing him or 3 something like that, when he goes to court? 4 MR. : No. Going to court. 5 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 6 MR. : And if anyone is going to 7 court, because you have so much court movement 8 that you can outcount them. And then, when the 9 Marshals say, hey, he's not going out, then you 10 release him out of -- 11 MR. : So, this is -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. -- this means, on the El, he 14 would be listed on the outcount? 15 MR. : As court. 16 MR. : As court. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : And that's what they were 20 actually doing? 21 MR. : That's what they were doing. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : They had him on the El. 24 MR. : So -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119415

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 398 1 MR. : -- so, this is no longer 2 3 MR. : That's not -- 4 MR. : -- an issue. 5 MR. : -- an issue. 6 MR. : All right. The next one, 7 it says, "No notations concerning a requirement 8 for a cellmate were entered into the SHU 9 program, and subsequently available for SHU 10 officers to reference." Who would have been 11 responsible for noting that in the SHU program? 12 MR. : So -. 13 MR. : First of all, what is the 14 SHU program? 15 MR. : The SHU program is -- 16 MR. : Is that the 292? 17 MR. with the 292s. So, 18 don't know, from what I understand, and was 19 told after the fact, that they couldn't find 20 the information on Epstein in the SHU program. 21 So, I don't know how you came to that 22 conclusion. 23 MR. HAYES: By the way, let the record 24 indicate that he is not sweating under his 25 armpits. A good sign. EFTA00119416

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 399 1 MR. : We didn't. BOP came to 2 these conclusions. 3 MR. : Right. So, I don't know 4 where that conclusion came from because from 5 what I gather, they couldn't get - they 6 couldn't find the -. Because usually -- 7 MR. : Well, they found the 8 292s, but they were just very limited. 9 MR. : Right. The 292s usually had 10 to have everything indicated on it. So 11 MR. : And on that note, we were 12 told the 292, his file, was extremely small, 13 and it should have been larger. Had you heard 14 anything about people removing documents from 15 files? 16 MR. : From what I understand, and 17 was told, that there was no file. They 18 couldn't -. They had every other inmate's 19 file, but not his. 20 MR. : They couldn't even find 21 it. You didn't think they could find his file 22 at all? 23 MR. : No. That's what was told to 24 me. 25 MR. : And who told you that? EFTA00119417

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 400 1 MR. : I think I heard that after 2 the fact. I don't know if the regional 3 director told me after they came in and did the 4 check, that they couldn't find it. So, I don't 5 know. 6 MR. HAYES: That's after they found out 7 the Hilary Clinton -- 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. HAYES: -- came down and had them 10 (Indiscernible *04:40:44) a certain 11 (Indiscernible *04:40:45). 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : But back to the original 14 question, whether it was there or not. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : If it, the cellmate 17 requirement was not entered in the SHU program, 18 who should have made sure that it was? 19 MR. : On the, in the 292? And I 20 don't know who was doing it. It should have 21 been the lieutenant, to ensuring that it's all 22 in there. 23 MR. : So, the SHU lieutenant? 24 MR. : When they - yeah - when they 25 deny it, or the OIC. So, if the captain EFTA00119418