LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 5:00 a.m. El institution count, respective ZA 2 SHU count slips, eyes on count shows 77. At 3 8:38 a.m., inmate Reyes is pre-removed from ZA 4 for count, and taken off the lieutenant log. 5 The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76. 6 Reyes was removed from the institution and does 7 not - and should not - appear on any counts at 8 this time. 9 At 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed 10 on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the 11 accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant 12 log. The 4:00 p.m. El shows a total of 76 13 inmates assigned to ZA." With one in attorney 14 conference, which was Epstein. "This indicates 15 that Fernandez was not keyed out of the SHU, 16 and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 17 shows 75. Inaccurate. 18 It should have reflected 74 because, 19 although there were 75 inmates assigned to the 20 SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There 21 were no inmates assigned to RA on the El 22 institutional count, and there was no count 23 slip for RA, eyes on count." This is where the 24 problem begins. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119219

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 MR. : "At 6:34 p.m., inmate 2 Hemingway is moved to ZA, and brings it down to 3 74. 6:47 p.m., inmate (Phonetic Sp. 4 *02:26:10) is moved from ZA to ES, bringing it 5 down to 73. At 8:21 p.m., Felix (Phonetic Sp. 6 I *02:26:15) and William 4e—moved to ZA, to 7 suicide watch, bringing the accurate count down 8 to 71. At 8:28 p.m., inmate Garcia Pina 9 (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:23) is moved from K into 10 ZA, bringing the accurate count up to 72. 11 The 10:00 p.m. El shows a total of 73 12 inmates assigned to the ZA, but zero inmates 13 assigned to RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 14 shows 73." Oh, this is another one. I don't 15 think we brought this. "One of the counts 16 actually shows 73 plus one." Do we have that 17 in there? 18 MR. : The 10:00 p.m. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. HAYES: I admire your guys' 21 (Indiscernible *02:26:48). 22 MR. : Yeah. You would also -. 23 This is all probably -- 24 MR. : 73 (Indiscernible *02:26:52). 25 MR. -- all Chinese to you. EFTA00119220

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 203 1 MR. : That's how our count slips - 2 3 MR. : -- now, I did foreign 4 language -- 5 MR. HAYES: I don't understand -- 6 MR. : -- should be done. 7 MR. HAYES: -- the fuck are you talking 8 about. 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 10 MR. : Huh. 11 MR. : This is 12 MR. HAYES: All these initials, and this, 13 and that. 14 MR. : -- but the count -- 15 MR. : So, which is interesting 16 is all of these are, as you notice, crossed 17 off. 18 MR. : -- right. 19 MR. : These two are not crossed 20 off. This one says 9S + 1. This one says 73 + 21 1. The question had been, when did this 22 happen? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : When did they put these 25 plus ones, or why weren't they crossed out? EFTA00119221

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 MR. : But you can't do a This 2 is an inaccurate count slip. Because you are 3 supposed to have the accurate count. You can't 4 do -. If this is 73 + 1, then you should have 5 74 on there. 6 MR. : Or, in this case, it 7 should be 73 minus one because the accurate 8 count was actually 72. 9 MR. : No, but you wouldn't write 10 minus one on there. You would write the actual 11 count on there. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : So -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- either it was 72 or 74. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : But there is no -- 18 MR. HAYES: All right. Guys, I'm going to 19 20 MR. : -- such thing as -- 21 MR. HAYES: -- splash water on my face 22 again. 23 MR. : -- okay. There is no such 24 thing -- 25 MR. HAYES: You guys are getting ready to EFTA00119222

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 kill me. 2 MR. : -- there is no such thing as 3 plus one on the -- 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : -- on that. 6 MR. : You're not allowed to 7 ghost count. Correct? 8 MR. : No. No. There should have 9 been an outcount done. So, and this should 10 have been caught, whoever the shift lieutenant 11 was, because they have to, you know, on each 12 shift, conduct a count, and review the count 13 slips. 14 MR. : Does this tell you 15 anything, though, that these were crossed off, 16 and these weren't? 17 MR. : Yeah. Unless, I don't know 18 why -- 19 MR. : Do you think that they 20 were replaced at a later date, or -? 21 MR. : I mean, it gives the 22 appearance. Because at first, I would want to 23 know, why you cross out. Why these -- 24 MR. : They cross out because, 25 as things come in -- EFTA00119223

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : -- you check it off. 3 MR. : So, that's what I want to 4 know. Like, whose habit is this? Like, okay, 5 I'm looking at -. 6 MR. : So, basically, I think it's 7 standard practice, as a control officer? 8 MR. : No. I mean, I've worked 9 control, and what I would do is, I would do the 10 check off, if I'm doing this. I've never -. 11 And that's people's style. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : That might be their style. 14 So, I just want to know -. 15 MR. : This one is 16 (Phonetic Sp. *02:28:46), I believe. 17 MR. : Huh? 18 MR. 19 MR. : So then -- 20 MR. : This one. 21 MR. : -- then that's how does 22 it. So, my question is then, why isn't this 23 done -- 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : -- like that. I mean, EFTA00119224

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 207 1 this, if does it like that, then that's 2 his consistent way of checking it out. But if 3 this is all on that shift -. 4 MR. : But point being, you will 5 agree, this indicates that, from 4:00 p.m. on, 6 the counts were not conducted. Correct? 7 MR. : No. They weren't done 8 right. 9 MR. : The SHU counts? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. Then we don't need 12 to really go into too much -- 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : -- detail with that. Is 15 this the first that you are seeing this? 16 MR. : Yeah. I haven't seen that 17 before. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. HAYES: This was still on the counts: 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : Now, we're going to move 22 on because the warden agrees that there is not 23 really reason to really dig further, because he 24 agrees this clearly shows that the counts were 25 not conducted in the SHU, from a certain time EFTA00119225

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 on. 2 MR. : Do you want to ask about the 3 Fernandez key? 4 MR. : What about it? 5 MR. : Who's responsible? 6 MR. : So, Fernandez -. Oh, can 7 you just - sorry - would you mind signing, 8 initialing and just dating? If Fernandez was 9 actually removed from the SHU -- 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : -- and placed onto R, you 12 know, RA dry cell, or R&D dry cell, oh, RA and 13 R&D are interchangeable. Correct? 14 MR. : RA -- 15 MR. : Because RA for - RA, I 16 believe, is what it shows in the count slip, 17 but it stands for the R&D -- 18 MR. : That's the R&D -- 19 MR. : -- right? 20 MR. : -- area. I believe. Yeah. 21 MR. : So, if he's actually 22 moved there around the 3:00 p.m., on August 23 9th, 2019, who would have been responsible for 24 keying him out of the SHU, and placing him into 25 the RA, so that the count would be accurately EFTA00119226

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 reflected? 2 MR. : SHU would have notified 3 control center, that we are moving one over to 4 R&D. 5 MR. : And by that notification, 6 do they also say, can you please key him out, 7 and into? Or is that just automatically done 8 by control? 9 MR. : Well, the notification is 10 made to control that inmate such and such is 11 being placed on dry cell in R&D. And then, you 12 key the inmate to that area. 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : So, I'll give you a quick 15 background. It looks like 16 MR. HAYES: Who is that? 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. witnessed this. 19 MR. : (Indiscernible 20 *02:31:02). 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : And he wrote up the shot. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : And he called the lieutenant. 25 He requested the lieutenant. EFTA00119227

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : And it looks like he 3 requested the lieutenant, but he never notified 4 control -- 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. -- that an inmate was being 7 moved. Right? If - and I'm (Indiscernible 8 *02:31:20). 9 MR. : Well, no, no, no, no. I 10 wouldn't (Indiscernible *02:31:21) -- 11 MR. : He doesn't recall -- 12 MR. : I wouldn't -. 13 MR. : But then, while the counts 14 are going on, there is somebody in R&D. So, 15 whoever is sitting in R&D should know that I 16 need to do a count slip because I have an 17 inmate down there. 18 MR. HAYES: Is this where somebody 19 disappears, that we're looking for? 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : Again, I told you, this 22 was more of an administrative thing. Just to 23 say what does the warden, you know, and the 24 boss of this place, what is his take on these 25 matters? Because as you have gathered, a lot EFTA00119228

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 1 of things went wrong this day. So, we need to 2 figure out why these things went wrong. So, 3 this is -. Let me just make sure, before we 4 move on, that I got everything. All right? 5 So, first, before we get into rounds, when a 6 lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU -- 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : -- are they required to 9 conduct a round of the inmates going up and 10 down the different tiers, or does the round 11 consist of just checking in with the officers 12 to make sure everything is okay? 13 MR. : Well, you check the officer 14 to make sure they are all right, and you check 15 the documentation. So, you check, you know, 16 you edit, you would have to review the post 17 orders also. To state what their duties are. 18 I mean, all of us had different, you know, I 19 was a lieutenant, so it was different things 20 you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make 21 sure, you know, the officers checked off, you 22 know, if the person ate or not. Any medical. 23 I would check to see if medical came up. So, 24 it would factor and depend on what shift you 25 went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates EFTA00119229

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 are up, so you're going, you know, you can go 2 around. Evening shift, you can see what's 3 going on. The midnight shift, they're 4 sleeping. But you are definitely checking a 5 30-minute log, to see if the inmates are doing 6 their 30-minute checks. And, you know, just 7 documentation. 8 MR. : Now, as the warden, did 9 you expect your lieutenants, though, to go down 10 range when they were doing their lieutenant 11 visits in the SHU? Their rounds. And this is 12 specifically when they are, like, signing off 13 on the different, like, on, as you can see, 14 this is what I'm going to be showing you. 15 These are round sheets that -- 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- you sent to Mr. 18 , where it shows the different 19 lieutenants signed on/off that they did their 20 round. 21 MR. : But what does -- 22 MR. : So, what does that -? 23 MR. : -- what the lieutenants are 24 checking for is accuracy of the officer's 25 rounds. EFTA00119230

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 MR. : Okay. This is -. 2 MR. : So, what they are checking 3 is, okay, were the 30-minute infrequent checks 4 done? Now, if there is an easy, that they are 5 not being done, you know, so, you know, then it 6 needs to be annotated and said, okay, this is 7 what the issue was. But if they are signing 8 it, they are kind of acknowledging that, you 9 know, that the time that the round will put 10 down, that they were down. 11 MR. : Now, what would be -? 12 This is the round, it looks like for 8/8. Can 13 you think of a reason why these wouldn't be 14 done? But they would be signed off on right 15 here? 16 MR. : Let me see. So, if a 17 lieutenant made rounds and saw this thing was 18 empty like this, then it is a problem. 19 MR. : Because you have this 20 8/8. And then, there is zero rounds showing 21 that they were conducted, but this lieutenant 22 signed it. 23 MR. : That's a problem. 24 MR. : The same thing. We go, 25 this whole thing. So, this whole shift looks EFTA00119231

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 like they didn't even sign it until here. On 2 8/8. 3 MR. : Wait. Did you print these 4 off the logbook, or -? 5 MR. : This is what you sent to 6 Mr. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : On Saturday, August 10th, 9 at 6:21 p.m. 10 MR. : Now, the only other thing I 11 can think of, and when I had gathered 12 something, I might have said, because the 13 checks are done at, like -. No, these are 30- 14 minute checks, so they -- 15 MR. : This is also -- 16 MR. : -- you know, these are -- 17 MR. : -- this is the day, this 18 is two days before Epstein was found. 19 MR. : -- no, this is No. I 20 was thinking of the log. The log did it 21 electronic. But this, no. This -- 22 MR. : We have the electronic 23 version. 24 MR. : -- yeah. This is 25 MR. : Which one? EFTA00119232

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 MR. : -- no, this is -. That 2 means -- 3 MR. : So, this is just wrong? 4 MR. -- yeah. This is wrong. 5 MR. : Should have this 6 lieutenant signed that? 7 MR. : No. He should have signed 8 it. They should have put something -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. listed as some 11 discrepancy, why the checks weren't done. 12 MR. : And on these, whereas it 13 looks like, this lieutenant is signing, it 14 looks like probably because these are done. Do 15 you think that is the reason why this 16 individual hadn't signed these? Because these 17 weren't correct? 18 MR. : Probably. I can't speculate 19 on that. 20 MR. : Because it says -- 21 MR. : I can't. 22 MR. : -- reviewed by morning 23 watch lieutenant. Where they do that, well, 24 that lieutenant does start signing it here, 25 where they are now filled out. EFTA00119233

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : For the same date. 3 MR. : So, this looks - hey, I 4 don't know who it was - but this looks 5 (Indiscernible *02:36:10) worked it. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Let me see how those 30- 8 minute. That's the same one. I don't know who 9 it was. Who it was. 10 MR. : Okay. So, that was 11 (Indiscernible *02:36:19). Certainly go look, 12 but whomever it was during those shift. And 13 then, we get into, it looks like, 14 (Indiscernible *02:36:30) still. And these. 15 Here is the 8/9. Where -- 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : -- it's signed off, 18 signed off, until 2:00 p.m. 19 MR. : That's a problem. 20 MR. : After that, no sign off. 21 Same thing. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : That's just when I think 24 left his shift, or somewhere around 25 that time. So -. EFTA00119234

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217 1 MR. HAYES: The point of this, if I may 2 ask, is we got a miscount, right? 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : We're not -- 5 MR. HAYES: This is -- 6 MR. : -- we've moved on from 7 counts. Now we're on rounds. 8 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, counts. The 9 significance of the counts is, at some point, 10 Reyes disappears? 11 MR. : No. The significance of 12 the counts is that, if inmates - or if the 13 staff members aren't conducting counts and 14 counts are to the accountability of the 15 inmates, to make sure everybody is there. 16 MR. HAYES: Right. 17 MR. : Rounds -- 18 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- are basically to make 20 sure everyone is alive and breathing. Is that 21 correct, sir? 22 MR. : You are right. Counts are 23 accountability, and then, the 30-minute checks 24 are basically safety checks. 25 MR. : So, the point of these EFTA00119235

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 questioning is, it looks like at - what we just 2 finished was counts - we have shown that the 3 staff members were not conducting their counts. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. HAYES: Right. Because that is why 6 you have 72 when it should be -- 7 MR. : Now we are doing rounds. 8 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:37:41). 9 MR. : To find out were the 10 staff members conducting their rounds. 11 MR. HAYES: Got it. 12 MR. : And again, we have, in 13 this case, a very high-profile inmate that was 14 deceased. Became deceased at some point. 15 MR. HAYES: And they think -- 16 MR. : And -- 17 MR. HAYES: -- plus it's whether they 18 MR. : -- yeah, it -- 19 MR. HAYES: -- noticed on their rounds 20 that the guy was deceased. 21 MR. : -- if they were 22 conducting 23 MR. HAYES: Or -. 24 MR. : -- rounds at all. And if 25 they were conducting rounds, would that be - EFTA00119236

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 and this is a question to you, like, we'll ask 2 you now, since I'm making that explanation - if 3 they were conducting their rounds, would that 4 be a way to at least try to help ensure that 5 inmates such as Epstein were alive and well? I 6 know it's not going to prevent it in every 7 case, but is that part of the reason, to make 8 sure that, if they are conducting a round, you 9 are checking to see if they are alive, and they 10 are breathing. 11 MR. : It is true, but I mean, and 12 because I mean, an inmate can, you know, you 13 can do your 30-minute rounds, and if they want 14 to do their harm to themselves, they are going 15 to do it. 16 MR. : Right. And that goes 17 into play with why -- 18 MR. HAYES: They just 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. HAYES: -- they just look, they do 21 rounds by looking in their cell. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. HAYES: So, if you want to 24 MR. : To check. 25 MR. HAYES: -- do harm, you just wait EFTA00119237

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 until they go passed your cell. 2 MR. : Right. And then, you kind 3 of figure out the timing of the route. But the 4 fact remains, if you are not showing on the 5 form that you did your rounds, then that's, 6 that's a problem. 7 MR. : So, when you are looking 8 at these rounds that you sent Mr. , are 9 you finding problems because they are not 10 completed correctly? You know, what we just 11 looked through. In fact, you know, these are 12 August 10th. (Indiscernible *02:39:09), 13 they're not signed off. There's blocks that 14 are not filled in. 15 MR. : Yeah. Looking at them now? 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : What is the question? 18 MR. : Well, does it show you 19 that, at least this paperwork doesn't appear to 20 be filled out correctly? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : And that is for the 8th, 23 as well? 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : Okay. So, that was EFTA00119238

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 MR. HAYES: And that is something, it was 2 your job to pass that on to 3 MR. : No. He requested -- 4 MR. : No, no, no, no. 5 MR. : -- the information. 6 MR. : This is just to show that 7 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- what the round sheets 10 that the warden sent to the regional director 11 were these rounds. So, it's just a matter of, 12 hey, do you know if these rounds were -? It 13 has nothing to do with his, you know, if he did 14 it right or not. It's, what his staff members 15 16 MR. HAYES: Right. 17 MR. : -- doing it right. 18 MR. HAYES: Right. 19 MR. : And who was responsible 20 to make sure the round sheets are done 21 correctly? 22 MR. : Well, the staff working up 23 there are responsible. And then, the 24 supervisor is supposed to ensure that they are 25 doing it. EFTA00119239

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 MR. : And what is this? This 2 was also attached. What is that right there, 3 that we are looking at? 4 MR. : Hmm. 5 MR. : TruScope logs? 6 MR. : Yeah. This looks like 7 TruScope. This looks like the log. And so, 8 like, if they are doing what areas they search. 9 MR. : And these are searches? 10 MR. : Yeah. These looks like 11 searches. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Let me see that. Search. 14 Did the areas. Visiting. Strip room. 15 Recreation area. Yeah. These are -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- these are search areas. 18 MR. : Does it show anywhere in 19 there that there was any cells that were 20 searched, or are they just all, like, common 21 areas? 22 MR. : No. They searched it. Look 23 how -. What is this? Nine South. SHU. 24 Completed all. These are, these looks like 25 everything they have done in there. The fire EFTA00119240

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 and safety checks. This is - it looks like the 2 log. 3 MR. : Okay. So, this goes with 4 you. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : So, all to this. This is 7 something else that we asked for the BOP to 8 print out for us, and this one specifically one 9 we asked. When you send us the cell searches 10 that were conducted on 8/9/2019 -- 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : -- we got back one. By 13 Mr. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : It say that it was 16 conducted at 12:36 p.m. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : On 8/9/2019. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Is that a problem? That 21 only one cell search was conducted in the SHU? 22 According to, at least according to TruScope. 23 MR. : Because I believe the post 24 orders state it is supposed to be - and don't 25 quote me on it -- EFTA00119241

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- you have to look at the 3 post orders - but they state, I think five a 4 shift. A minimum of five. 5 MR. : It's five, I believe -- 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : -- for the night watch. 8 The day watch, I believe, is more. And the 9 morning -- 10 MR. HAYES: They're supposed to do five -- 11 MR. : -- watch is just 12 (Indiscernible *02:41:59). 13 MR. HAYES: -- cell searches? 14 MR. : No, no. Each shift is a 15 minimum of five. 16 MR. : I don't think -- 17 MR. : And then -- 18 MR. : -- that includes that 19 morning watch, though 20 MR. the morning watch is 21 MR. -- because there's -- 22 MR. : -- area. 23 MR. : -- right. 24 MR. : Yeah. You are 25 MR. : Common areas. EFTA00119242

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 MR. : -- picking the common area. 2 MR. HAYES: So, let me get this clear. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. HAYES: You are supposed to do five 5 cell shifts, five cell searches per shift? 6 MR. : Yes. That is -. 7 MR. HAYES: All right. And in this case, 8 there is only an indication that they did one? 9 MR. : One. Right? 10 MR. : One the whole day. 11 MR. : One the day whole. 12 MR. : Not per shift. The whole 13 day. 14 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, whose job is it 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. HAYES: -- to say why aren't you doing 17 those? I was going to use the F word. Why 18 aren't you doing all the cell shifts? 19 MR. : Well, this is, this is my 20 question to the warden is, is that a problem, 21 that there was only one logged into TruScope? 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. It is a problem. 23 MR. : Does that indicate that 24 the cells were not being searched, to you? Or 25 that they just weren't logging them in? EFTA00119243

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And again, whoever was 226 2 working that day, you're going to have to ask 3 them. I mean -- 4 MR. : And we have. 5 MR. looking at 6 MR. : And it was just 7 MR. looking on paper, I mean, 8 it shows you didn't, you didn't conduct your 9 searches. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : I mean, now, there might 12 have been a reason where the person said, okay, 13 the computers were down or whatever, but it is 14 highly unlikely for -. 15 MR. HAYES: So, but you are literally 16 going into a cell and search it? Does that 17 mean -- 18 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 19 MR. HAYES: -- you throw over the 20 mattresses, the whole thing? 21 MR. : No. You pull them out. You 22 look at -- 23 MR. HAYES: Okay. 24 MR. : -- look and check the 25 lockers. You check under their stuff. You EFTA00119244

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 227 1 know, and you typically do it, like on certain 2 days when the guys are going out to take a 3 shower, you might go out and do that. 4 MR. : So, with your suggestion 5 that computers could be down and things like 6 that, as you can see from the email attachment 7 that you said, there are certainly plenty of 8 searches that were entered in there -- 9 MR. : Oh. 10 MR. : -- but there is only one 11 cell search. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : And so, I would assume, 14 would that indicate that the computers are 15 actually up and running? 16 MR. : Yes. So, this one, this is 17 the same day? 18 MR. : What are you looking -- 19 MR. : That could be (Indiscernible 20 *02:43:42). 21 MR. : -- yeah, this should be 22 8/10, and 8/9 and 8/10. 23 MR. : 8/9 -- 24 MR. : I would think. 25 MR. : reg number. Reg number. EFTA00119245

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 MR. : It shows the dates here. 2 I just can't see them. 3 MR. : Yeah. Change base. Yeah. 4 This is a search one. This is the log. 5 MR. : Okay. So, problematic, 6 in your opinion? 7 MR. : Yes. It is. 8 MR. : All right. So, not only 9 searching them, but is it equally as important 10 to actually log it in, as well, so that we know 11 whether things are being searched? 12 MR. : Yes. You should log it. 13 MR. : All right. Now, this, 14 this comes to the kind of question on this. 15 When Epstein was found, are you aware that he 16 was in a cell that didn't coincide with what 17 his inmate history quarters, and what the BOP 18 database said, where he should have been? He 19 was in the wrong cell. 20 MR. : I did hear, afterwards, that 21 there were some issues with Sentry and the way 22 they keyed into the cells. 23 MR. : All right. And what did 24 you hear? 25 MR. : I think, just that the cell, EFTA00119246

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 the way the inmates were being keyed in was 2 off, it didn't match this cell. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : That. 5 MR. : So, yeah, his assigned 6 cell within the BOP database was not where he 7 was located 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : -- in person. At least 10 when he was found on August 10th, 2019. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. HAYES: Now, is that something that is 13 - I should shut up, right? 14 MR. : No, no. I'm good. 15 MR. : Go ahead. 16 MR. HAYES: Now, is that something that 17 goes on up to you? Is that your responsibility 18 to see where guys are being celled? 19 MR. : No. But I mean -- 20 MR. : Yeah. Most of my 21 questions to him isn't that -- 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : -- it's his 24 responsibility, it's whose responsibility was 25 it? EFTA00119247

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 MR. HAYES: Okay. Got it. 2 MR. : And then -. 3 MR. : So, who should have made 4 sure that Epstein's cell, in the BOP database, 5 matched where he was physically located? 6 Because obviously, people get a hold of the 7 information that he wasn't in his assigned 8 cell. You know, that is just more reason to 9 people not trusting the government. So, we are 10 just trying to figure out -. 11 MR. : Well, and this is not a 12 problem limited to one person. It is a problem 13 - and I think it is a Bureau-wide problem, as 14 far as specific keying in cells. I don't think 15 this was done in a malicious -. 16 MR. : So, what happened here, 17 our investigation shows is that when he came 18 back from -- 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : -- from suicide, or 21 psychological observation, he was placed into 22 the cell that it shows on July 30th, on this 23 form. However, because his - is it CPAP 24 (Phonetic Sp. *02:46:24)? 25 MR. : CPAP. EFTA00119248

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 MR. : His CPAP machine, the 2 cord didn't reach the plug. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : So, they had to move him 5 to a different cell. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : So, from July 30th to 8 August 10th, he was in the incorrectly assigned 9 cell. No one ever caught that. No one ever, 10 you know, and my thought being is, well, if 11 they are doing their cell searches -- 12 MR. : Oh, I thought you meant -- 13 MR. : -- wouldn't -. 14 MR. : -- the cell didn't match up 15 with -- 16 MR. : No, no, they -- 17 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 18 *02:46:52). 19 MR. : -- they logged him into 20 the cell that he was placed in, coming out of 21 psychological observation. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : On the 30th. Then, they 24 physically moved him to a different cell. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119249

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 MR. : On the 30th. Because his 2 CPAP machine wasn't, the cord didn't reach. 3 MR. HAYES: What is a CPAP machine? 4 MR. : It's the snore -. It's 5 to help you breathe when you are sleeping. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. HAYES: And he needed a CPAP machine? 8 MR. : Yes, sir. 9 MR. : For the snoring. 10 MR. : So -- 11 MR. HAYES: Don't call me sir. Please. 12 I'm old. All right? You're reminding me. 13 MR. : And so, no one ever went 14 back into the system from, all the way from the 15 30th up to August 10th, and made that 16 correction. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : Who was responsible for 19 that? 20 MR. : So, whoever made the cell 21 change should have contacted control center. 22 MR. : And is the control center 23 that actually made the change, not the 24 individuals in SHU, or the SHU lieutenant? 25 MR. : No. The -- EFTA00119250

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 233 1 MR. : Because my understanding 2 it would have been the SHU lieutenant or the 3 OIC. 4 MR. : Bed changes? 5 MR. : To verify their cellmates 6 where were the Wherever the BOP databases 7 said they are. 8 MR. : So, you have to, you would 9 have to call control center to make that 10 change. 11 MR. : Okay. So, who should 12 have called the control center? 13 MR. : Whoever made the change in 14 Sentry. Because I - and then, don't quote me 15 if I'm wrong - because I don't believe SHU 16 staff have control over keying where an inmate 17 is in. 18 MR. : Yeah. No. I thought the 19 OIC might, or the that the SHU -- 20 MR. : No, because 21 MR. : -- lieutenant would. 22 MR. : -- in that case, beds would 23 be really messed up. 24 MR. : Right, right, right. 25 MR. : So, the control center is a EFTA00119251

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 centralized area. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : So, a call should have been 4 made down to control, saying, hey, this is 5 where he's being keyed to, and this is what -. 6 MR. : And who should have made 7 that call? 8 MR. : Whoever made the change. 9 Whoever switched him. 10 MR. : And my understanding is 11 that the OIC and the SHU lieutenant were 12 supposed to review cell assignments, to make 13 sure inmates were in their assigned cells, at 14 least on a periodical basis. Is that correct? 15 MR. : Yeah. You do a, what we 16 call a bed book check, to make sure. Because 17 your board, you know, when you are in the unit, 18 you have a board up there, and you just match 19 where everyone is at. 20 MR. : And how often should that 21 happen? 22 MR. : There is no set policy, but 23 as a good practice, you know, you kind of want 24 to check what your open cells are, where, you 25 know, where individuals are. And should it EFTA00119252

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 also be checked if they were doing cell 2 searches? Would that be caught, if they were 3 doing searches? 4 MR. : Well, if you are doing 5 cell search, all you are going to do is put 6 down the cell number, and the individual in it. 7 It wouldn't -. You wouldn't necessarily be 8 able to find out if it is the correct room. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And the correct bed in 11 Sentry. 12 MR. : All right. 13 MR. : But, you know -. 14 MR. : So, in this instance, 15 then, and I'll shut up so I can actually let 16 you answer, who -- 17 MR. HAYES: I have the same problem. 18 MR. -- who is it that should 19 have notified control center to make this 20 change? It sounds like you said whoever 21 physically moved him, at the time? 22 MR. : So, what happens is, whoever 23 physically moved him should have said, okay, 24 this is where, you know, you are, this is where 25 we are moving him. And then, you let the - EFTA00119253

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 1 typically - the OIC know, and then, they will 2 call down to control center. 3 MR. : And if that didn't 4 MR. HAYES: Can I speak to my client for a 5 second? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Do you want me -- 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- do you want me to push 12 pause? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. HAYES: Yeah, no. I'll take him to 15 the other -. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Sure. Okay. It's 4:46 18 p.m., and this is Senior Special Agent 19 , and I'm pushing pause. 20 (whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 21 off the record and back on the record). 22 MR. : The recorder is back on. 23 It is 4:53 p.m., after a short break. And I 24 remind you, sir, you are still under oath. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119254

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 MR. : All right. So, we 2 stopped with the, we were talking about who was 3 responsible for making sure Mr. Epstein was 4 logged into the correct cell within the 5 MR. : Question. 6 MR. : -- BOP database system. 7 MR. : Were there other cells that 8 were wrong? 9 MR. : Do you know that, 10 MR. : Not We don't know if -. 11 This, we know only because we checked this. 12 MR. : Okay. So, I mean, 13 everything else could have been right, and that 14 could have been a -- 15 MR. : No. Well, we found out, 16 this is the reason was because, again, he was 17 placed into that cell, and then moved because 18 of the CPAP machine. 19 MR. : No. I was -- 20 MR. : Well, our question was 21 MR. : -- you know, wondering if it 22 is a systematic, or an individual problem. 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MR. : That's why I was just 25 curious. EFTA00119255

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 MR. : Yeah. And that's 2 something that we should probably -. 3 MR. HAYES: Well, and my question is, does 4 that have any effect on count? I mean, they 5 still should be able to look in the cells if 6 there was a (Indiscernible *02:51:28). 7 MR. : Well, when -- 8 MR. : Well, the problem comes 9 in, again, I think is the credibility of, hey, 10 now we have Epstein, who was found in a cell, 11 and it's not his assigned cell. So, that just, 12 you know -- 13 MR. HAYES: But I'm saying -- 14 MR. : -- the media says all of 15 these things that went wrong. 16 MR. HAYES: -- yeah. 17 MR. : One being -- 18 MR. HAYES: I've had that. 19 MR. : -- wait, he's not even in 20 the right cell. Well, how did that happen, and 21 who was responsible? 22 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, so, my question 23 is, does it make any difference? I mean, if 24 they are supposed to do the count, the count is 25 you look in the cell, and see -- EFTA00119256

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. HAYES: -- whether there's a guy in 3 there. Well, whatever number he's in, or he's 4 not in, he's still in his cell. 5 MR. : No. Correct. 6 MR. HAYES: You know? 7 MR. : But because we are doing 8 this deep dive review -- 9 MR. HAYES: Okay. I gotcha. 10 MR. : -- it's showing these 11 different, you know -- 12 MR. HAYES: Got it. Okay. 13 MR. : -- and again, this is, 14 this is one of those things -- 15 MR. HAYES: You're just being extra 16 careful. Yeah. It's (Indiscernible 17 *02:52:14). 18 MR. : -- and not like 19 (Indiscernible *02:52:15). Yeah. We just have 20 to, we have to address the fact that -- 21 MR. HAYES: He wasn't in the right cell. 22 MR. : -- Mr. Epstein wasn't in 23 the cell that he was assigned to. 24 MR. HAYES: Okay. I mean, it's not just 25 that. Someone (Indiscernible *02:52:22) that EFTA00119257

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 he said, oh, he doesn't have a roommate, and, 2 you know, by the way, we also counted the wrong 3 number of prisoners. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. HAYES: That's a lot of mistakes. 6 MR. : Right. And we haven't 7 even gotten involved. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : As I'm sure you know. 10 But -- 11 MR. HAYES: Right. 12 MR. : -- so, after the person 13 who moved him didn't contact and have this 14 changed, how would have, then, how would we, 15 then, how would have anyone found out that he 16 was in the wrong cell? What processes are in 17 place to ensure that where they are matches up 18 with the actual database? 19 MR. : Well, I guess if they were 20 doing -- 21 MR. : You said bed book counts? 22 MR. : -- yeah. Usually, you could 23 do, you do your bed book counts, to ensure, you 24 know, that every inmate is in the cell that 25 they are supposed to be. When you are updating EFTA00119258

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 your accountability board, you would look and 2 see, okay, you got him here, where is he at? 3 And then, match it up with, you know, with 4 Sentry. 5 MR. : And who would be doing 6 those things? 7 MR. : The staff working up there 8 in SHU. 9 MR. : Is the lieutenant, the 10 SHU lieutenant, at all involved, as far as you 11 know, in making sure that this is all accurate? 12 MR. : Well, he was spearheading it 13 to make sure everything was 14 MR. HAYES: He was the supervisor. 15 MR. : -- was right. Yeah. He was 16 the supervisor. But going in and saying, okay, 17 let's, did this happen? Have we done this? 18 And have we done that? 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. HAYES: And -. Okay. Just to make me 21 clear, somebody dropped the ball as to whether 22 or not he should have a, he had a roommate. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. HAYES: Okay. And somebody dropped 25 the ball as to whether he was in the right EFTA00119259

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 cell. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. HAYES: Okay. And then, somebody 4 would have dropped the ball as to either, 5 dropped the ball or they maliciously didn't 6 find out that he wasn't on the count. They had 7 said we did a count, but they didn't notice 8 that, or didn't - that he wasn't breathing, you 9 know what I mean? 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. HAYES: Okay. That starts to be a 12 problem. 13 MR. : So, just pointed 14 out to me. On the after-action review -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- they did review this. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : And it says that, 19 according to their review 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : -- this is not my review. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : Or review. 24 "Significant discrepancies exist within Sentry 25 regarding cell quarters assignments." QRT. EFTA00119260

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 QTR. "Although it is well documented, inmate 2 Epstein was housed with two other inmates 3 during his assignment in the SHU. Sentry does 4 not reflect this information accurately. 5 Inmate Epstein was found within cell 220, that 6 Sentry never reflects him being housed within 7 that cell at any time." But to answer your 8 question, the first sentence says that there is 9 significant -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- discrepancies. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : The way that I read that 14 is, overall, whether they are referring to 15 specifically Epstein -- 16 MR. : Epstein. 17 MR. : -- that, I am not able to 18 determine -- 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : -- based upon that 21 sentence, but it does sound like, overall, that 22 they had some discrepancies. So, Lieutenant 23 would have supervised it, but it's really 24 the staff that would be responsible for doing 25 these bed book counts, and making sure EFTA00119261

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 244 1 assignments are -- 2 MR. : Yeah. He did it right there 3 4 MR. : -- the inmates are in 5 their assigned -? 6 MR. : -- and then, whoever is 7 moving an inmate from a cell to a cell, you 8 make the notification. 9 MR. : And is it surprising to 10 you that almost two weeks later, that wasn't 11 caught? 12 MR. : At two weeks later from 13 where? 14 MR. : From -. He was placed 15 into the cell on July 30th, 2019. He's found 16 August 10th, 2019. That entire time, it was 17 never caught that he was not -- 18 MR. : In the right cell. 19 MR. : -- locked in the right 20 cell. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Is that a significant 23 amount of time that went by without catching 24 that? 25 MR. : Without catching it. It is. EFTA00119262

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 MR. : Now, is that, you know, 2 all staff that was in there, or is it, like, 3 really -? 4 MR. : And again, and you probably 5 have to speak to the captain who was 6 responsible for doing the checks, and doing the 7 count. 8 MR. : So, would the captain 9 have some responsibility on this, too? 10 MR. : Well, did the captain is in 11 charge of correctional services. So, that is 12 the unit he is over. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, he has overall 15 responsibility to make sure, you know, in 16 conjunction with the lieutenant, that the unit 17 is running the way it is supposed to run. 18 MR. : And what should have the 19 captain done in order to make sure that that 20 was accurate? 21 MR. : Well, now, there is 22 different ways of finding out if stuff is 23 accurate. Like, you have the perpetual audit 24 system. Where they are responsible - the 25 lieutenants - are responsible to conduct EFTA00119263

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 perpetual audits. So, you can find out through 2 those, when you do it. And they are usually 3 quarterly. But if there is discrepancies and 4 things are going on in that department of 5 correctional services, we have what we call 6 perpetual audits, which he maintained the 7 records of, and that is another checks and 8 balance where you would find out if something 9 is wrong. 10 MR. : And how often are those 11 done? 12 MR. : Those are done quarterly. 13 MR. : Quarterly? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : All right. So, the fact 16 that this is, we are talking about, like, ten 17 or 11 days, there is a good chance that they 18 weren't done during that time period? Or do 19 you know when they would be done? Are they 20 done, like, on a certain date? 21 MR. : What, the quarterly? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : It's - and I don't know when 24 the dates of the quarter starts - but that is 25 to your checks and balance. You know -- EFTA00119264

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : -- you do your perpetual 3 audits, and then you catch it, and say, oh, 4 wow. We did an audit. And this is wrong. And 5 then, you come up with the corrective action to 6 fix it. 7 MR. : So, that's how the 8 captain could have determined, I guess 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : -- but how, in those -- 11 MR. : The captain would find out. 12 MR. : -- ten or 11 days, how 13 would have that been caught? 14 MR. : Again, you would have to see 15 your, your inmate accountability board. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : You know, are you matching 18 Sentry, if you are pulling off Sentry and 19 matching it with what is on the board. 20 MR. : But - and I apologize 21 that I'm beating -- 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : -- a dead horse here, 24 but, like, who does that? 25 MR. : Again, I don't know who, you EFTA00119265

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 1 know, who the lieutenant assigned it to, who 2 the OIC. You know, everybody has different 3 duties, and -- 4 MR. : So, it is not like -- 5 MR. different ways that work. 6 MR. : -- not like morning watch 7 does this, or it's just based upon what passed 8 down from lieutenant to the OIC -- 9 MR. : Right. Like, what -- 10 MR. : -- to whoever. 11 MR. no, but basically, when 12 you decide to do it. You know, I mean, I can't 13 see, on the midnight shift, you are doing an 14 accountability check like that, because the 15 guys are sleeping, and, you know, you are 16 looking for a living, breathing body, but you 17 can't physically see them. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : You know, so, what shift was 20 picked to check and say, okay, let's make sure 21 our cell, the accountability in the cell. So, 22 I can't -- 23 MR. : You can't really answer 24 the question. 25 MR. : I can't really speak -. EFTA00119266

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 1 MR. : Sure. That's fine. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : All right. Let's get 4 this stuff out of your way. If you don't mind, 5 this -- 6 MR. HAYES: Am I right that we are getting 7 close to the bottom of the pile? 8 MR. : We are. We are getting 9 close. 10 MR. HAYES: Because Jesus Christ, I can't 11 take this. L-O-L. (Indiscernible *02:58:29). 12 MR. : We are (Indiscernible 13 *02:58:31) with this. 14 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : So, this is the email 17 with all the rounds, and the SHU assignment. 18 And these were separate. 19 MR. HAYES: Now, let me ask the question 20 (Indiscernible *02:58:48) the supervisors. 21 Your job is the prison. It's your job to look 22 down into the prison, as far as these counts 23 and, you know, accountability boards, and so 24 forth. 25 MR. : No. I mean, that is what EFTA00119267

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 250 1 you have a captain for and a lieutenant for. 2 (Indiscernible *02:59:06). You know? 3 MR. HAYES: Okay. 4 MR. : And then, we touched on 5 this before, but this is an email that the 6 captain sent to you. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : Regarding the lieutenant 9 rounds on 8/9 to 8/10. He sent them, he sent 10 this email on August 11th, 2019. He said, 11 "Warden, Warden, here are the lieutenant rounds 12 for 8/9 to 8/10. Below are the workstations 13 logged on to complete rounds." 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : But again, for you, a 16 lieutenant round, and I don't know if we ever 17 came to that conclusion, or that we may have 18 got off topic on that. But a lieutenant round 19 is used primarily to check in, and it's not 20 necessarily to go down the different ranges? 21 MR. : On the midnight shift. So, 22 they typically not, you know, unless they have 23 an issue, but like you said, you as a 24 lieutenant can walk - should walk - around and 25 see. Now, the midnight shift is hard, but the EFTA00119268

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 1 other shifts, you, you know, walk around, see 2 what's going on. 3 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : All right. So, should 5 they, though, be walking down the ranges on 6 both the morning, or the day watch and the 7 night watch? Evening watch. 8 MR. : This is what I will say. 9 You probably got to look at the post orders and 10 see -- 11 MR. : Yeah. The post orders 12 MR. : -- the post orders. 13 MR. : -- aren't clear with 14 that. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : We haven't -- 17 MR. : So, it's not -. 18 MR. : -- we haven't been able 19 to -- 20 MR. : It's not -- 21 MR. : -- specifically 22 determine. 23 MR. : -- that's what I mean, it's 24 not a requirement. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00119269

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r 1 MR. : You know, for the 2 (Indiscernible *03:00:26), they are in there, 3 making rounds, checking the books, to see if 4 you got a problem on the range. You would call 5 that. But most lieutenants do, you know, just 6 walk the ranges. Just to see what is going on. 7 MR. : Because most lieutenants 8 that we talked to -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- said that they were 11 absolutely required to do -- 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : -- a round, just like a 14 SHU staff member -- 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : -- was to do a round. 17 Some lieutenants -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- specifically, 20 lieutenants that worked that day -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- said, nope, there's no 23 requirement to do that. 24 MR. : But -- 25 MR. : So, that's where I'm, as EFTA00119270

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the warden -- 2 MR. : Well -- 3 MR. : -- who is right? 4 MR. : No. The expectation is, 5 like you hit any unit, you make your rounds 6 within the unit. The SHU unit is no different. 7 That you say, hey, I'm going to go in there, 8 make sure everything is, you know, check on the 9 inmates. And make sure they are fine. But if 10 we are talking about the post orders, were they 11 required to? The post, you know, the post 12 orders, I don't believe had the requirement 13 that they have to, you know 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- physically go in the 16 (Indiscernible *03:01:24). 17 MR. : So, does that - if I 18 understand you correctly - the expectation was 19 that they conduct a round, just like a SHU 20 staff member, but there is no requirement to do 21 so? 22 MR. : Yeah. You should be walking 23 around. 24 MR. : All right. 25 MR. : To see if everything -. EFTA00119271

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 254 1 MR. : But it's not like you 2 told them, you gave them a directive, make sure 3 you are doing this. 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : So, there is no -- 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : -- so, if someone wasn't 8 doing it, it's not like something they would be 9 disciplined for? 10 MR. : See, that's hard. I mean, 11 to say you would discipline. There is a 12 difference between what is written down, and 13 what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are 14 coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, 15 want to see what's going around the unit. I 16 might ask the officer, all right, do we have 17 any problems. The inmates, when you come on, 18 hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, 19 lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are 20 going down the ranges. You know, so, when you 21 are going down the range, you are seeing 22 something. You get to another range. The 23 inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, 24 it is something you should be doing as part of 25 your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just EFTA00119272

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 255 1 walking around, to make sure everything is -. 2 MR. : But if you were still the 3 warden of the MCC, and found out that your 4 lieutenants, when they were signing off on 5 doing rounds 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : -- and you found out that 8 they were only checking in with the staff 9 members, and they were not actually walking 10 down the ranges, is that something that you 11 would find problematic? 12 MR. : I would correct it. 13 MR. : And when you say correct 14 it, what do you mean by that? 15 MR. : I would tell, you know, get 16 with the captain, and I would tell the captain 17 they need to be, you know, in inmate grounds, 18 they need to walk the ranges. 19 MR. : So, they should be 20 walking the ranges, then? 21 MR. : Off of the post orders, it's 22 not in there, you know -- 23 MR. : I know. I -- 24 MR. : -- any place saying that you 25 have to do it. But as a supervisor, that like EFTA00119273

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 any unit you walk on, you want to see what is 2 going on in the unit. So, do I want to use the 3 word "sound correctional judgement"? You know, 4 just to see, as a supervisor, what is going on. 5 I mean, you have some people that go above and 6 beyond. And then, do their job, and you have 7 some people that want to do the bareee* 8 minimum. But that is something -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- from a rounds point of 11 view, I would say you need to make those 12 rounds. 13 MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me ask you a 14 question. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. HAYES: You do the rounds. Does that 17 mean literally walk up and down this, what we, 18 what I would call the cell block? 19 MR. : Yeah. You walk around the 20 unit. You know, you are interacting with 21 inmates. You are talking to inmates. Same 22 thing with the inmates in SHU. You know, you 23 are walking around. Hey, what's going on? 24 MR. : So, what you are not 25 familiar with is the way the SHU is set up. EFTA00119274

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r - 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : There is different 3 levels, and there is different 4 MR. HAYES: Yeah, I've been to the SHU. 5 MR. : -- hallways. 6 MR. HAYES: Know what I remember about the 7 SHU?r I4t's fucking cold. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : Yeah. So, like, if you 10 are just, you can simply go in and go to the 11 officer's station, and check in with the staff 12 and say -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : -- everything good? You 15 got all your paperwork in order? All your 16 paperwork is actually right here on the desk. 17 Did you find it problematic that they are 18 keeping all of their round sheets on the desk 19 versus on the ranges themselves? 20 MR. : Different places do it 21 different ways. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Some -- 24 MR. : So -. 25 MR. : -- some places have it, they EFTA00119275

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 1 keep it at the end of the range, and you sign 2 it. Some have it right there, the log, you 3 know, take the logbook and they just sign it. 4 So -. 5 MR. : So, the individuals, the 6 ops lieutenants and activities lieutenant that 7 we spoke to, that worked on August 9th and 8 August 10th -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- a majority of them 11 said, if not all of them, no, no, no, all 12 needed to do was go to that officer's station, 13 check in with my officers, make sure their 14 paperwork is done, and then I left. Every 15 other lieutenant that we talked to said, no. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : When you sign that paper, 18 you are signing it just like you conducted a 19 round, as if the SHU staff conducted a round. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : You had to go down every 22 range -- 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : -- make sure everything 25 was good to go. You are not just checking on. EFTA00119276

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : So, what we are trying to 3 say is, which one is right? 4 MR. : Well, now, for the ones that 5 are saying that I don't have to go down and 6 check every range, they are going off the post 7 office. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : The ones that are doing 10 their job, they are going around and checking 11 every time. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Making sure the wellbeing of 14 the inmates, and you are checking on the 15 wellbeing of your staff. 16 MR. : All right. So, it kind 17 of sounds like nobody is right, and nobody is 18 wrong? They need to change the post orders? 19 MR. : Well, they would, they would 20 have - should put in -- 21 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 22 MR. : -- their post orders, but 23 they should be going around, and 24 MR. HAYES: So, they should have a rule 25 MR. : -- the wellness check. EFTA00119277

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 MR. HAYES: that says, you got to go 2 around? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : So. 6 MR. : So, no one technically did anything wrong. They should just really do it? 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. • just do it. MR. • : They should. They should : Okay. Fair enough. MR. : The term used was "sound correctional judgment." MR. : Yes. MR. : All right. So, that - again - was that email from to you, with the lieutenant rounds. MR. HAYES: Damn. That pile is a lo- lower. MR. : Unless you want to go right back on it. MR. : Now, this says -- MR. HAYES: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I'm fucking out of here. If you bring that pile back, I'm out of here. Now, I'm going to EFTA00119278

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 give you some of that money back, but I can't 2 take this shit no more. 3 MR. : So, this one says it's 4 from 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : To you. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : Who is 9 MR. : He aws a unit manager there 10 for the PCU Unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:23). 11 MR. : Okay. At the MCC? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : It says, subject, "Weekly 14 rounds -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- as requested." 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : So, these are weekly 19 rounds from August 4th, 10, 2019. What is that 20 for? 21 MR. : That was for our witWeed sec 22 unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:34). 23 MR. : Oh, okay. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : So, you actually had your EFTA00119279

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2, 1 own separate witweed sec unit? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : So, that is not in SHU? 4 Or is it? 5 MR. : Huh? No. That's not in 6 SHU. That is a separate unit all together. 7 MR. : So, why was this 8 provided? For any reason? 9 MR. : Because I like to I used 10 to like to track who was making their rounds 11 and not making their rounds. 12 MR. : All right. 13 MR. : So, they had to send it to 14 me every week. 15 MR. : So, was this just 16 coincidental? Nothing to do with Epstein? 17 MR. : Yeah. This had nothing to 18 do with him. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : This was probably what he 21 had to send up that week. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : It was the end of the week. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : So, that's what he sent. EFTA00119280

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 263 1 So, that had nothing to do with him. 2 MR. : So, this has nothing to 3 do with Epstein. 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : All right. I'm not even 6 going to -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- you can keep that over 9 here, so we don't get that confused. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : A14—right. So, this one. 12 As far as this one, it says, from you to Mr. 13 It says SHU rounds. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : What SHU rounds are we 16 looking at here? This is a new document here. 17 MR. : Okay. This is on -. This 18 is eight, for the -- 19 MR. : This is for executive 20 staff -- 21 MR. : -- the week starting at 22 eight -- 23 MR. : or-? 24 MR. : -- this is starting for 8/4 25 rounds. So, this is, these are my rounds that EFTA00119281

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 1 I'm doing. 2 MR. : Now, is there some kind 3 of a requirement that you conduct rounds? 4 MR. : Yeah. The warden is 5 supposed to go up and go -. 6 MR. : So, you are supposed to 7 conduct rounds in the SHU? 8 MR. : Yeah. About once 9 MR. : Or is this -- 10 MR. a week. Like, you can go 11 up as many times, but, you know, the warden is 12 supposed to be going. 13 MR. : All right. 14 MR. HAYES: Now, that means you are 15 supposed to conduct rounds in the SHU? 16 MR. : Yeah. I go in the SHU. I 17 walk around and do rounds in every area of the 18 institution. So. 19 MR. : And is everyone on here 20 supposed to do a round weekly? Because I have 21 never seen this round sheet until reviewing 22 your emails. 23 MR. : No. This is every Bureau 24 institution has this. This is where you sign 25 into the Special Housing Unit. This is the EFTA00119282

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 1 log. And this is showing that they made their 2 rounds. So, these are the lieutenants right 3 here, showing that they made their rounds. So, 4 at the end of the week, when they send me the 5 round sheet, and let's say it looked like this, 6 my question would be, okay, did they make 7 rounds, or did they forget to make rounds? 8 MR. : Is this and this the same 9 thing? 10 MR. : For the lieutenants, it 11 would be. 12 MR. : Just the lieutenants? 13 And no one else? 14 MR. : Yeah. No one else. This is 15 computer services. The duty officer has to go 16 up there. 17 MR. : Now, so -- 18 MR. : Right there. 19 MR. : -- this shows that you 20 did two rounds. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : And you are only required 23 to do one. Correct? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : AW programs. EFTA00119283

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 1 MR. : That, she did it on Friday. 2 MR. : So, the fact that AW 3 operations has nothing in there, is that 4 problematic? 5 MR. : And here is the other thing 6 could have happened. A lot of times, they make 7 the rounds, sometimes they forget to initial 8 and sign it. 9 MR. : All right. 10 MR. : So, what I would do is, I 11 would look at it and say, okay, when I got at 12 the end of the week, what happened? How come 13 you didn't make rounds? 14 MR. : So, all of these blank 15 spaces, were these people supposed to be doing 16 rounds in SHU? 17 MR. : Not everybody is required. 18 They should have been up there, but they are 19 not required. Like, the finance facility -- 20 MR. HAYES: The correctional judgement -- 21 MR. : -- food services. 22 MR. HAYES: -- would be they could go up 23 to that. 24 MR. : But health services has to 25 make rounds. EFTA00119284

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 1 MR. : You're getting it. 2 MR. : The PA's. 3 MR. HAYES: By the end of the day, man, 4 I'll be ready to go to MCC myself. I hated 5 going to prison. 6 MR. : Psychology. You know? 7 MR. : So, which ones on here 8 that are actually required to conduct rounds? 9 MR. : You have the unit team 10 that's supposed to go up. The lieutenants. 11 MR. : Well, SIS, it doesn't 12 appear that they did any rounds. 13 MR. : That's -. 14 MR. : But I'm assuming they 15 certainly should have. Correct? 16 MR. : SIS should have been up 17 there, to go around. So, and again, I would 18 look at it and see who was on leave. Somebody 19 might have been on leave, not on leave. 20 MR. : And what are - so, when 21 these type of individuals, it looks like more 22 high level such as, I mean, obviously, you are 23 the highest level, what is a warden round look 24 like? Do you all have to walk down the range, 25 or -- EFTA00119285

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 1 MR. : So, what I -- 2 MR. : -- is that what you do? 3 MR. : -- what I do is, I walk 4 around and I go to every cell, and I talk to 5 the guy, got any issues, any problems? 6 They're, like, no, I'm good. You might have 7 some that say, hey, I'm up here for an 8 investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up 9 here? So, I take my little notes. Okay. 10 Fine. Some of it I can address right there, 11 some of it I can't. But I would typically walk 12 around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, 13 that is the reason why you are up there. Why 14 am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, 15 you go by it, it says 16 MR. HAYES: It's because you are a fucking 17 mass murderer, that's why you're up here. 18 MR. : -- and, like, you know why 19 you are locked up. And then, they would say, 20 well, how come the investigation is taking so 21 long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, 22 if it was an OIG investigation. It would 23 depend. So, you know, I would usually tell 24 them, like, you know, it's an outside agency 25 handling. We are in contact with them. And EFTA00119286

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 1 somebody will come see you. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Some could be up for 4 administrative, like an incident report. 5 MR. : So, you went through and 6 talked to everybody, but were you required to 7 do that, or is it just because you just were a 8 good employee? 9 MR. : I mean, that's what you 10 should be doing. 11 MR. : That's what you should 12 do. But I mean, like you talked about before, 13 well, the post orders don't say that. 14 MR. : Well, I don't have post 15 orders. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Yeah. So, I mean 18 MR. : But you are -. But 19 something does say that you are required to do 20 it once a week? 21 MR. : There's nothing in writing 22 to tell me you have to do it. But just like 23 visit every area, I have to, I visit every area 24 of the institution. You know, make sure I see 25 every employee going there on the off shifts. EFTA00119287

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 1 I would go on the off shifts, you know, to see 2 the staff, but it's -- 3 MR. HAYES: It's a surprise. In other 4 words, you are not telling them you are coming, 5 you are just going. 6 MR. : Yeah. I'm coming up. I'm 7 making my rounds. I'm sitting, talking to 8 staff. What's your issues? I mean, it's more 9 the issue of them just work. I mean 10 MR. : So, when you say there's 11 nothing in writing, saying that you should do 12 it, or is there something in writing saying 13 these people that didn't do it, that they 14 should have done it? 15 MR. : No. And there could be 16 reasons. Now, they - and this is what I would 17 get the report and look into - like, there are 18 people that make the rounds, they come up to 19 SHU but they forget to sign in. 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : So, when I get the report, 22 would, you know, talk to the captain, that this 23 the entrance log, and say, hey, why didn't such 24 and such make a round? Now, that AW might have 25 been out that week, and I had this one covering EFTA00119288

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 271 1 both. So, they came up with the AW. 2 MR. : Now, is there any way to 3 determine, like, these people that, for 4 instance, visited on Friday, what time they 5 visited? Because this is the day that Reyes 6 was gone. So, it says the captain was in there 7 on Friday. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Should have he noticed 10 that Reyes wasn't there? 11 MR. : Not necessarily. If he 12 didn't go down range. And he could have come 13 up, and remember, we have Ten South that's 14 connected. So, I don't know if he came up 15 there, you know, for an issue for Ten South. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : So, I don't know. And then, 18 him making his rounds, even if he's making his 19 rounds, you are going to have empty cells on 20 the range. 21 MR. : Oh, you will? 22 MR. : Yeah. Well, somebody -- 23 MR. : Even if - 24 MR. : -- somebody could be at 25 medical. Somebody could be on an attorney EFTA00119289

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 visit. 2 MR. : So, it wouldn't -- 3 MR. : So -. 4 MR. : -- it wouldn't caused a 5 red flag, you don't think, if he saw, like, 6 Epstein's cell empty? 7 MR. : Well, if empty cell is 8 empty, the first thing you're saying, he's down 9 on attorney visit. Because the rounds are made 10 during the daytime. 11 MR. : And in that note, would 12 they say, though, because it says , and it looks like was there, too -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : -- should have those two 16 people, if they actually did a round, say 17 Epstein is down there, but where is Reyes? 18 MR. : I mean, they could have. i 19 mean, but Reyes could have been in the shower. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : You know? I mean -- 22 MR. : But it wouldn't be 23 something that would be normally asked? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : It was, like, oh -- EFTA00119290

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 273 1 MR. : Hmm-mm. 2 MR. : -- Epstein, high-profile 3 guy, where is his cellmate? That wouldn't be - 4 5 MR. : No. I mean -- 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : -- you're just saying, okay, 8 Epstein is downstairs, his, you know, or maybe 9 his cellmate was in, in, in attorney visit, it 10 could have been on a shower day. He could have 11 been in rec. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : I mean 14 MR. : So, you are more 15 concerned about the people that are there, as 16 opposed to who weren't there, it sounds like 17 that? To check in with them. 18 MR. : That, I mean, you want to 19 see, making sure you are around, making rounds, 20 talking to everyone. So, I don't know what, 21 you know, what the thought process is, or, you 22 know, if somebody was in the shower or not. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : So. 25 MR. : Sure. No. And I'm not EFTA00119291

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2- 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 trying -- MR. MR. that. : Mm-hmm. : -- to get you to say MR. HAYES: How many days a week can you take a shower when you're in -? MR. : The entire of three times. Monday. Typically, it's Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. MR. : And what about this one? This one is from to you. Weekly rounds on August 12th, 2019. Is this MR. : The PCU. MR. : -- is this -? So, this is the same thing? MR. : That's the PCU unit. WitWood sec unit. MR. : The witeed sec unit. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : All right. So, this might be the exact same thing as -. Oh, this is what I did (Indiscernible *03:14:50). Sorry. All right. That sounds good. Do you mind just initialing and dating that? MR. HAYES: Now, we are getting close to EFTA00119292

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 1 the end. 2 MR. : Hmm. 3 MR. you had two 4 follow up questions before we move on. Why 5 don't you ask those? 6 MR. : If if the counts and the 7 rounds were done 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. as they were supposed to 10 be done, let's say in the afternoon, by the SHU 11 C.O.s, would they have caught the fact that 12 Epstein's cell was empty, and inmate Reyes was 13 actually not where he was supposed to be? In 14 terms of that, if he was assigned, if Epstein 15 was required to have a cellmate, and Reyes was 16 transferred, would they have caught onto the 17 fact that Epstein needed a cellmate? 18 MR. : I don't understand what 19 MR. : Let's say Reyes was 20 transferred, right? 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : If the counts and the rounds 23 were done, in the afternoon, the 4:00 p.m. 24 count, the rounds in between, if they were 25 done, would the SHU C.O.s have caught on to the EFTA00119293

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 1 fact that Reyes was missing from the cell? 2 MR. : But they already knew that. 3 MR. : If the word of mouth 4 MR. : So, the claim is 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. made up that 7 stuff in the memo. And says 8 never told me that. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : That they say that's 11 bullshit, and he's lying. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : The people that he said 14 were present say the same thing. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : He didn't say that. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : So, point being is, well, 19 if didn't pass that information on, if 20 they were actually conducting their rounds, 21 should they have noticed that he wasn't there? 22 MR. : Yeah. If they knew that he 23 didn't -. If they knew, they knew that - 24 what's his name? - Epstein wasn't supposed to 25 have a cellmate. So, if you see his cell on EFTA00119294

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 1 there, that I guess, and on the outside of the 2 cell, they would have his name and the other 3 person. Then you should be saying, okay, where 4 is the cellmate? We know he's not in the 5 attorney room. 6 MR. HAYES: Okay. 7 MR. : So. 8 MR. HAYES: I got it. 9 MR. : So, you know he's down in 10 the attorney room. So, you would have said, 11 okay, somebody's got to be in that cell. 12 MR. HAYES: Hmm. Ace bastard. That's a 13 way to fuck with the other guys. 14 MR. : Meaning, if they actually did 15 the rounds and the counts like they were 16 supposed to, there was more than enough time 17 for them to turn around and assign another 18 cellmate, if needed. 19 MR. : Or to say, of course, to 20 your point, where they are saying that nobody 21 ever told them, if you were making your rounds, 22 you would have saw that there was nobody in 23 that cell, and then ask you a question, where 24 he's at. 25 MR. HAYES: And the person whose job it is EFTA00119295

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 1 to make sure they are doing their rounds is the 2 lieutenant or the captain? 3 MR. : On the shift, it is the 4 lieutenant would check. But now, in fairness 5 to the lieutenant, if you are going off of a 6 sheet, and the sheet says, hey, you made your 7 rounds, and then, something like this happens, 8 then you find out people didn't make their 9 rounds. 10 MR. : And I think what 11 question to you was, does this suggest to you 12 that they were not actually conducting their 13 rounds? The fact that Reyes was gone for 24 14 hours, and the notifications weren't made? 15 MR. : It would appear, yeah, that 16 that is the appearance. 17 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *03:18:07). 18 MR. : Yeah. I mean. 19 MR. : I just have one other 20 question. 21 MR. HAYES: When I do cross examinations, 22 and it says, it would appear that, yeah, 23 that's, yeah, somebody found. 24 MR. : Have you ever heard of C.O.s 25 pre-filling round sheets? EFTA00119296

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 1 MR. : When he says pre-filling, 2 what he is saying is that, the beginning of 3 their shift, they are going in and they are 4 just writing, they are initialing and putting 5 in the time. At the very beginning, for the 6 rest of their shift. 7 MR. : So, let me put it to you 8 this way. If I -- 9 MR. : I saw you smile -- 10 MR. : -- no, no. 11 MR. : -- when he asked that. 12 MR. : Because if I become aware 13 and know that somebody is doing something like 14 that, that is reportable misconduct. I'm going 15 to report that. So, if somebody came to me and 16 said, well, this person is pre-filling out 17 count slips, that would be something that I 18 would say, okay, you know, I have to do a 19 referral, or if I don't have enough evidence 20 for it, I would have a supervisor, you know, 21 put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count 22 slips. 23 MR. : So, if we have people 24 confessing, admitting that they are not only 25 pre-filling out their count slips, but also EFTA00119297

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 280 1 doing it with their round sheets 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : -- what is your response 4 to that? How bad of a -? How bad is that? 5 MR. : Well, that is a referral. I 6 would have to do a referral for you guys to 7 look into it. 8 MR. : And then, if they are 9 actually pre-filling those out, does that also 10 suggest to you that they didn't do their counts 11 or their rounds? 12 MR. : Well, I mean, if they're 13 telling you that we pre-filled it out, it's 14 obvious that they did not, they are not 15 counting. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Because if somebody is pre- 18 filling out a sheet, that means -- 19 MR. HAYES: They're not counting. 20 MR. : -- they have no intention of 21 counting. 22 MR. : And does that indicate to 23 you, as the warden, that they are falsely 24 certifying rounds and counts that they did not 25 conduct? EFTA00119298

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 MR. : If they come to you, and 2 they say, hey, we didn't fill out, we haven't 3 done our count slip, that is an admission of 4 misconduct. 5 MR. : Right. But a false 6 certification, as well. Correct? 7 MR. : Yeah. That is falsifying the 8 document. I mean, but they have admitted that 9 to you. But as far as -- 10 MR. : Now, what if you -- 11 MR. -- me -. 12 MR. : -- what if they are 13 saying - they are a newer employer - and they 14 are saying, well, we are doing it because we 15 watched a 20-year-old guy, 20-year guy do it. 16 That's how I learned. He didn't tell me to do 17 it. But I watched him do it. 18 MR. : So 19 MR. : So, I did that. 20 MR. I would -. So, I would 21 say to you, when did that person come in? 22 Because anybody that came in under me, you get 23 the spiel that, hey, I was new, I was an 24 officer. I know what it is to be new. But I 25 always, always tell people, you got to know EFTA00119299

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 1 what's near and dear to you. 2 MR. : And that is why I asked 3 you specifically -- 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : -- with Tova Noel. Are 6 you confident that you gave her that spiel? 7 MR. : Talk to whoever was in her 8 class, and you talk to any, any new class that 9 came through, and they will tell you my spiel. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Okay? You can go into our 12 annual training, when we have it, talk to 13 people, and they will tell you about my spiel. 14 MR. : Do you say that always at 15 annual training? 16 MR. : I cover everything. Because 17 I have -- 18 MR. HAYES: Yeah, but do you always say 19 is, you have to do what you have to do. Don't 20 do it just because the 20-year-old guy did 21 that. 22 MR. : I do. I tell people about 23 doing their job. The same thing when it comes 24 to use of force. I tell staff all the time. 25 Use enough force necessary to control the EFTA00119300

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 situation. 2 MR. : But specifically about 3 not watching the 20-year guy. What is it that 4 you tell them? 5 MR. : So, what I tell them is, I 6 come in -- 7 MR. : Because it sounds like it 8 is the same thing you tell them every time. 9 MR. : -- right. So, what I 10 basically tell them, I said, you got some good 11 people that work in the institution. And then, 12 I had, you got some people with time, that just 13 want to do what they want to do. And I tell 14 them, don't follow them around. I said, you've 15 got one. If you are on probation coming in, 16 you need to be doing your job. I said, if 17 someone comes in, and they're not doing their 18 job, or they're telling you not to do 19 something, you make sure you let your 20 supervisor know. I said, I make rounds, you 21 can, you can talk to me. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : You know? So, the 24 expectation was clear. But with any other 25 agency - and I'm not just saying our agency - EFTA00119301

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 there are people that come in and they become 2 followers. 3 MR. : Now, we're going to move 4 on. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : We talked about the phone 7 call. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : On August 9th. What is 10 your understanding of what transpired with 11 Epstein being provided a phone call on the 12 night of August 9th, 2019? 13 MR. : So, from what I understand, 14 when you come in, you have to be able to do, 15 for the monitored calls, the voice analysis and 16 all that. So, from what I understand 17 afterwards, Epstein was never available for 18 that to be done. Because he went down to the 19 attorney room, and he would come up at night. 20 So, from what I understand, he was given an 21 unmonitored call. 22 MR. : And what do you mean by 23 an "unmonitored call"? 24 MR. : An unmonitored call is a 25 call that is not recorded with the inmate phone EFTA00119302

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 285 1 system. 2 MR. : Is it your 3 MR. HAYES: In other words, they don't 4 listen to what you say? 5 MR. : Right. They don't. 6 MR. : -- is it your 7 understanding that anyone physically monitored 8 the call, or did you -? 9 MR. : From what I understand, the 10 individual was standing right there when he 11 made the call. 12 MR. : All right. So, it is our 13 understanding that, "On August 9th, 2019, 14 Epstein made a request to MCC unit manager, 15 , to provide him with a phone 16 call, so that he - Epstein - could call his 17 mother. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. checked Epstein's 20 pack and PIN, and found out it was not yet set 21 up. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Therefore, rock 24 Epstein to a shower area in the SHU, and 25 plugged a phone into a legal line. EFTA00119303

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 1 dialed the number. A man answered. He handed 2 the phone to Epstein. And then, left 3 for the day. stayed Oh, sorry. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : mThen we found out that 6 the SHU C.O.s were around. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : And did not 9 specifically instruct any one of them to 10 monitor their phone call. Instead, he called 11 the SHU after he departed from the MCC, to make 12 sure that the phone was taken away from Epstein 13 after his allotted time.a Had you heard that 14 before? 15 MR. : I have -. What I heard was 16 he was there and did the monitoring. 17 MR. : So, your understanding 18 was that, was there the entire time of 19 his call? 20 MR. : That, at the entire time of 21 his call. 22 MR. : So, a number of questions 23 off of that. The fact that dialed the 24 number that he gave him, and a man called. A 25 man answered. Who, he said he was calling his EFTA00119304

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 287 1 mother. A man answered and he gave him the 2 phone. Is that problematic to you? 3 MR. : I didn't hear that it was a 4 Who did I -? They said it was his -. 5 MR. : So, that information might 6 have come out after. 7 MR. : It came out after. I didn't 8 - I heard that after the fact - so, I didn't 9 hear any specifics, but I heard it was -. 10 forgot who they said it was that called, but 11 then afterwards, they said, whoever they said 12 it was, was deceased. That he didn't have that 13 talk. 14 MR. : I think it was his 15 mother. 16 MR. : Yeah. I think it might -. 17 So, and that, that is what I heard. 18 MR. HAYES: His -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. HAYES: -- his mother died during the 21 time of this investigation. 22 MR. : Hmm. 23 MR. : She was previously deceased. 24 MR. : Deceased. 25 MR. HAYES: So, wait, wait, wait, wait, EFTA00119305

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 1 wait. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. HAYES: So, he calls, looking for his 4 mother. 5 MR. : He said he wanted to talk 6 to his mother. 7 MR. HAYES: But his mother was already 8 dead. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : And the person who 11 answered the phone was a male. But he still 12 gave the phone to Mr. Epstein. Is that 13 problematic? That he says he wants to talk to 14 his mother. A man answers. And then gives the 15 phone to Mr. Epstein. 16 MR. : Well, remember, I am hearing 17 this, that it was a call that all along said 18 I'm calling the mother. I don't know anything 19 about a man answering the phone. 20 MR. : No, no, no, no, no. I'm 21 providing this information as in, like, you are 22 the warden, what is your take on this? Did he 23 do something wrong there? 24 MR. : Well, as far as, you know, 25 you are saying you want to talk to your mother, EFTA00119306

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 1 and the -- 2 MR. : And a man answers the 3 phone. 4 MR. : -- and then, a man answers 5 the phone. Yeah. It might have been some 6 questions he should have been asking. 7 MR. : Should have he verified 8 who it was he was providing -? If he is giving 9 him an unmonitored call, on an unmonitored 10 line, should have he verified who it was that 11 was on that other line? 12 MR. : Right If a male picked up 13 the phone. 14 MR. HAYES: Why do you know it's an 15 unmonitored line? 16 MR. : Because the legal line 17 isn't recorded? 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. HAYES: So, that means unmonitored, 20 that it's -- 21 MR. : Yeah. That you can't -. 22 MR. HAYES: -- it's not recorded. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : Correct. 25 MR. HAYES: Okay. EFTA00119307

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 1 MR. : On that note, were there 2 any lines that Mr. could have plugged 3 the phone into, that were monitored, versus if 4 they didn't have a pack and PIN? 5 MR. : Not on the ranges, I 6 believe. I'm not sure. 7 MR. : No? 8 MR. : I don't think there was 9 anything on there. 10 MR. : Because, yeah, we had 11 been told by someone that many, if not most, 12 BOP facilities have the ability, if a pack and 13 PIN such as that wasn't set up. There are 14 lines that you could plug it into, that are 15 monitored, but at MCC, that wasn't the case 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. -- in SHU? 18 MR. : Not on the ranges. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : You said not on the ranges? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Where would it be? 24 MR. : I'm not sure. I think 25 religious services might have a line. The EFTA00119308

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291 1 Chaplin. 2 MR. : But not in the SHU? 3 MR. : Not in the SHU. 4 MR. : Okay. So, not only did 5 he do that, but he then left the SHU for the 6 day. Obviously, he was supposed to sit there 7 and listen to the call. Correct? 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : Should have he put it on 10 speaker phone? 11 MR. : Either listen to the call, 12 or if he had somebody else take over the call. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : You know, so, somebody 15 should have been monitoring the call. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Just to stand there and 18 listen. 19 MR. : All right. Now, the fact 20 that, you know, obviously, dropped the 21 ball there. He gave him a call, he just wanted 22 to talk to his mom, his mom is deceased, and a 23 male answered. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : Second, he didn't stay to EFTA00119309

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 292 1 listen to the call. Third, he didn't tell 2 anybody else to listen to the call. Now, the 3 fact that the other - he leaves the unit - the 4 fact that the other people are in the unit, 5 should have they then, at some point, also 6 said, like, hey, this guy is on a phone call, 7 let's go monitor it, or should have that been 8 something that 9 MR. : Yeah, you couldn't -- 10 MR. would have directed? 11 MR. : -- you couldn't -. But 12 that's what I'm saying. I don't know the 13 conversation that took place between them. If 14 the call was made, and somebody was told to go 15 monitor it. Did they go over it? Did they not 16 go over it? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : So, I don't -. 19 MR. : So, Mr. told the 20 people -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- he's on a phone call. 23 Get it back after - whenever it was - 15 24 minutes. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119310

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 293 1 MR. : They were giving him an 2 unmonitored call. 3 MR. HAYES: The significance of this is 4 that, if somebody had monitored the phone call, 5 they might have found out that he was very 6 depressed, or he was -? 7 MR. : Well, there is Can 8 you tell us, why is it important for us to know 9 that what inmates are talking about on their 10 phone calls? 11 MR. : I mean, just for the safety 12 and the security of the institution. 13 MR. : Is it true that they 14 could potentially operate their businesses, 15 their illegal businesses, from there? 16 MR. : You could. 17 MR. : Or they call a hit on 18 someone. Or they could, they could do a lot of 19 different illegal activities, if we are not 20 monitoring those calls -- 21 MR. : Right. That's -- 22 MR. : -- that we wouldn't know 23 24 MR. : -- why we monitor them. 25 MR. HAYES: All right. I have one more EFTA00119311

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 story. 2 MR. : Yeah. Right. 3 MR. HAYES: I'm a young lawyer. And ] 4 know it's hard to believe I was ever young. 5 But I go - I'm supposed to interview a prison - 6 and I go to the interview, and he says, this 7 person is the main rat against, and I said, no, 8 he's not. I said, that person has got no - 9 fucking nothing to do with it. He don't say 10 nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, 11 oh, man, I better make a phone call. 12 MR. : So, is it standard 13 practice to allow inmates to make personal 14 calls, as had done? 15 MR. : You do I, sometimes if they 16 come in, they don't have a pack number. Like, 17 you could have a family member that has passed 18 away, and, you know, you allow them to make a 19 call under that circumstance. You know, I have 20 a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, 21 but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, 22 you make a call to another agency. And the 23 inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is 24 such and such. But you stay and you listen to 25 the conversation. EFTA00119312

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 295 1 MR. : Was there ever an 2 instance that you wouldn't listen to the 3 conversation? 4 MR. : On an unmonitored line? 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : No. Somebody should be 7 standing there. 8 MR. : All right. And what are 9 your thoughts on this specific matter from what 10 we just, from what I just told you? 11 MR. : Like I said, if it's 12 problematic, if you said, if it's the way you 13 said it, yeah. 14 MR. : And is it a serious 15 concern and safety violation? 16 MR. : Well, yeah. I mean, it's a 17 breach. 18 MR. : And why? 19 MR. : Because we don't know what 20 the conversation was. 21 MR. : Okay. You said -. 22 You answered that. These are just on this 23 note, there is just a couple of these. There 24 is a phone call. This one says it's from an 25 . Do you know who that is? EFTA00119313

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 296 1 MR. : Yeah. He's the supervisory 2 attorney. 3 MR. : So, he is an attorney? 4 Oh, okay. That's the same guy. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Supervisory staff 7 attorney. It says, "For client Jeffrey 8 Epstein. Good afternoon. Below, please find 9 complaints from Epstein's attorneys. Can you 10 check to see if he has toilet paper, and that 11 his CPAP is plugged in? I am less concerned 12 regarding his complaint of having had two 13 calls, but they were on unmonitored lines. So, 14 there is no recording of them. His phone 15 account is set up, so we could get a call on 16 the ITS, when 30 days has -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- elapsed." 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : So, it looks like this 21 was actually discussed, and this again, was on 22 August 6, 2019. Do you know if this was -? It 23 looks like this was the whole, to the whole 24 executive staff -- 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119314

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 297 1 MR. : -- team. Was this talked 2 about at all? 3 MR. : It was sent out, and that's 4 when, and I don't recall the timeline, I said 5 he needs to get his stuff set up. Anything -- 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : -- that he needs, needs to 8 get it set up. So, I believe that was the day 9 when I sent everybody up there, in the attorney 10 room area, and said, get his stuff set up. 11 MR. : Now, did you - the 12 captain, I believe, informed that he 13 would give him this call, just make sure it's 14 monitored. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Prior to that, did the 17 captain talk to you about this at all? 18 MR. : About what? 19 MR. : Well, affording this un, 20 you know, this call on an unmonitored line, but 21 just making sure it was monitored? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : No? 24 MR. : Hmm-mm. 25 MR. : But what you had said, EFTA00119315

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 298 1 make sure his pack and PIN is set up? 2 MR. : Yeah. I had to. Because 3 there was some other things to get set up, and 4 I said, hey, we got to make sure that we can 5 get his stuff going. If that's the date, if I 6 remember, where everyone went up and talked to 7 him at the, where he was in the attorney room. 8 MR. : Okay. Now, this is one 9 that's going to be -. Now, did you -. Were 10 you able to print out that attachment? 11 MR. : No. That's just our screen. 12 It's not what they would see. 13 MR. : I was just hoping -. 14 Okay. So, this is one we got. It's something 15 from 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : And who is that? 18 MR. : That's the communication 19 guy. 20 MR. : Correct. And he is in 21 charge of, like, the phones 22 MR. : The phones. 23 MR. : -- the cameras. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : Correct? EFTA00119316

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 299 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : And he's to you, and it 3 says, "Phone record 104." 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : Sent on Saturday, August 6 10th, 2019, at 3:04 p.m. Now, it has an 7 attachment here, titled 8.19.19.cap. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : That we are unable to 10 open. Do you know what that would have been? 11 It appears that it is related to the phone call 12 that Mr. Epstein made. Do you remember if you 13 ever received a recording of that phone call? 14 MR. : No. I didn't get any 15 recordings. 16 MR. : Would it have 17 MR. : Nuh-uh. 18 MR. : -- been, maybe, then, the 19 number that he dialed? 20 MR. : I think it might -. And it 21 might have been the number. I'm not sure. 22 can't I don't recall. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : What that is. 25 MR. : Do you remember asking EFTA00119317

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 300 1 Mr. to provide you with any specific 2 information with regards to the call? 3 MR. : We might have called him 4 about the line, and what was the number that 5 was called. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : And could they have pulled 8 it up. So, we might have asked him that. 9 MR. : But it definitely wasn't 10 an actual recording on the phone? 11 MR. : No. It was -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. I think it might have 14 been the number that, you know, I think wanting 15 to pass on to the FBI. 16 MR. : Great. 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : Do you mind just 19 initialing -- 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- and dating that? 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : I just didn't know what 24 that .cap was. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119318