LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 whom I spoke in person in the late morning, had 2 asked, as an aside, whether we would consider 3 housing him in the cadre." What is the cadre? 4 MR. : Cadre is the camp. 5 MR. : Is that low level? 6 MR. : It's like our lower security 7 inmates. Yeah. 8 MR. : So, you have an actual 9 camp at the MCC? 10 MR. : It's low security inmates. 11 But remember, they are designated. So, we 12 couldn't put him in that unit because he's pre- 13 trial. We can't mix designated and pre-trial 14 inmates together. 15 MR. : Okay. It says, "I 16 advised we could not," since he was a pre-trial 17 inmate. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : "Later that day, but 20 prior to 1:00, close out meeting, I spoke to 21 attorney Michael Miller on the phone. He had 22 asked whether we could house Mr. Epstein alone 23 in the SHU, to which I replied that we could 24 not, based on his prior suicide 25 attempt/gesture." EFTA00119119

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 MR. HAYES: It's just, I've never heard of 2 his lawyers. You would think that his lawyers 3 would be somebody that I was familiar with. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. HAYES: Since they're probably 6 charging him $2,000 an hour. 7 MR. : "He acknowledged that he 8 understood. To my recollection, neither 9 attorney referenced consideration for suicide 10 watch or psychological observation during 11 yesterday's conversation. Please let me know 12 if you need any further information." Now, was 13 this just a request to any contact that he had 14 with his attorneys? 15 MR. : He was just keeping me 16 informed because the attorneys were calling 17 every day, with different types of requests. 18 MR. : But this was the day, 19 obviously, of when he was found. So, this 20 would -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- he's talking about 23 context, just literally the previous day -- 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : -- that he was looking EFTA00119120

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 for different housing type arrangements. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : But all right. If -. 4 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 5 MR. : Excuse me? 6 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 7 (Indiscernible *01:18:25) charging. 8 MR. : Oh. Now, this answers 9 our question from before. So, this actually 10 says, it's from you to Mr. , it says 11 attorney logs. This is that same thing that we 12 were looking at. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, it looks like July 15 30th is highlighted, and Mr. Epstein. And 16 again, all these -- 17 MR. : These are the attorney 18 assignment. 19 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 20 *01:18:43). 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Yeah. So, that does now 23 clarify what it is, because, previously, there 24 was nothing that was in the subject liner. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00119121

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 MR. : Or the body. Okay. 2 MR. HAYES: Yeah. I'm looking at the 3 stack, and I'm sitting here, just Jesus Christ. 4 MR. : We're coming to - hey - 5 we're almost halfway through. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. HAYES: Well, that's the way you're 8 looking at it. (Indiscernible *01:19:04). A 9 little bit different, fellas. I'm thinking 10 about, I'm going to miss today's workout and 11 tomorrow's. 12 MR. : Well. 13 MR. : Now, you've already 14 answered this, but did you work at the MCC on 15 August 9th? 16 MR. : For that -- 17 MR. : 2019. 18 MR. : -- was Friday. Friday, I 19 was off. 20 MR. : What about on August 21 10th, 2019? 22 MR. : 10th was a Saturday -- 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MR. : I was, I worked on 25 Saturday. EFTA00119122

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : All right. But did you 2 work in response to this? 3 MR. : No. I had to respond, if 4 the day of the suicide was August 10th -- 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : -- yeah, I had to respond if 7 I came in. 8 MR. : Okay. So, but you 9 weren't scheduled to work? 10 MR. : No. I wasn't scheduled to 11 work. 12 MR. : All right. This is just 13 for - and this is going to be put in here, in 14 case you need to reference it - these are 15 emails that were from you to Mr. , with 16 the staff roster. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : And the reason I'm using 19 these is because these were literally sent on 20 Sunday, August 11th. So, I know that we can 21 rely on these 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- based upon being so 24 close. So, this one is for Friday, August 9th. 25 It's showing who was working that day. And EFTA00119123

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 this one is from Saturday, August 10th. Again, 2 showing who was -- 3 MR. : This is a correctional 4 roster. 5 MR. : -- correct. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Correct. This is a 8 correctional roster. Right. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : So, who was, basically I 11 think, involved with Epstein during that date? 12 So, yes. How many rosters would there be, 13 aside from correctional? 14 MR. : Well, the correctional 15 officers are the only ones that keep a daily 16 roster. 17 MR. : Like, R&D wouldn't do 18 anything like that? 19 MR. : No. Because their staff are 20 already assigned to where they are working at. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Yeah. And they have rosters 23 that show where everyone is working at. But 24 not, like, the correctional officer roster. 25 MR. : Okay. So, I'm going to EFTA00119124

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 have you just initial and date. I'm going to 2 place this, again, here, just in case we need 3 to reference it, and again, it's just if we 4 need to look at who was working, and what 5 position -- 6 MR. : There's two on there. 7 MR. : -- and what. Yes, 8 please. So, this one would be for the August 9 9th, that one is for August 10th. This 10 actually was not - the August 10th one - was 11 not attached to your email. Right? 12 MR. : Yeah. You are right. 13 MR. : So, the August 9th one 14 was attached, but the August 10th wasn't. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Yeah. So, we had to pull 17 that from -- 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : -- just for full 20 disclosure, but just so that we have both. The 21 August 9th one was something that you had sent. 22 All right. Since Epstein was required to have 23 a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to 24 make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of 25 this requirement? EFTA00119125

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : That they were notified? 2 MR. : So, how -. So, Dr. 3 or Mrs. sent out that email, saying -- 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- Epstein is required to 6 have a cellmate. The one that we reviewed. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : Who was required to make 9 sure that staff that is working in the SHU is 10 aware of that requirement? 11 MR. : Well, the captain passes it 12 on to the lieutenants, and the officers are 13 then made aware that he, you know, any inmate, 14 if they are required a cellmate 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- that, you know, that he 17 they are to require cellmate, if somebody 18 leaves or goes out. 19 MR. : Now, someone such as an 20 Epstein, who was just coming off of suicide 21 watch, you know, a week, a week and a half 22 prior, should all staff know that that person 23 is supposed to be housed with a cellmate? 24 MR. : In the Special Housing Unit, 25 anybody working in there would know that he was EFTA00119126

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 supposed to have a cellmate. 2 MR. : Do you believe that there 3 was any—anybody - especially anybody that's got 4 a quarterly bit of post there -- 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : -- but anybody that's 7 working in the SHU on August 9th or 10th, do 8 you believe that there could be a reason why 9 they would say, we didn't know he was supposed 10 to have a cellmate? Do you think that would be 11 an acceptable excuse? 12 MR. : Because you had the staff 13 that usually work up there, were up there. It 14 should be, it should have been annotated on his 15 - what do you call it? - it's called a 292. 16 MR. : The hot list, you are 17 referring to, or -- 18 MR. : No. Not the hot list. 19 MR. : -- or what? Oh, you 20 mean, oh, the 292. You're talking about the 21 SHU -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : -- file. 24 MR. : The SHU file. It should be 25 annotated on the SHU file because, when you EFTA00119127

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 come in, you have to annotate on there his 2 meals, did he eat, the medical rounds. So, it 3 would have been on there, it would have been on 4 there, too. So. 5 MR. : Would it have also been 6 on the hot list, though? 7 MR. HAYES: Guys. I need an interpreter. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. HAYES: What does the hot list mean? 10 MR. : It's just 11 MR. : That's -- 12 MR. : -- sorry. 13 MR. yeah. I guess the high 14 risk suicide inmates. Yeah. So. 15 MR. HAYES: Whether it's suicide, or high 16 risk for some other kind of problem? 17 MR. : It could be -. It's mainly 18 for, like, suicide, just to -- 19 MR. HAYES: Medical. 20 MR. : -- to watch out for. Yea:-.. 21 Medical. Okay. 22 MR. HAYES: Seizures. You know, stuff 23 like that? 24 MR. : Yeah. So. 25 MR. : So, point being is, do EFTA00119128

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 you think that, if any staff that is working in 2 that, you know, as we know, Mr. Reyes left - - 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : -- in the morning of 5 August 9th, Mr. Epstein was found the -- 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : -- the morning of August 8 10th. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : SHU staff that is working 11 in there at that time, he's 24 hours basically 12 gone, you know, with no, without a cellmate. 13 Do you think that this is a reasonable excuse 14 for them to say that we didn't know he was 15 required to have a cellmate? 16 MR. : No, because they did know, 17 because I - from what I understand - someone 18 wrote a memorandum, and had it that day, that 19 they knew. 20 MR. : Okay. Well, yeah, we can 21 get into that. Now then, so these are -. 22 MR. HAYES: One other question. I want to 23 open a box. 24 MR. : Absolutely. 25 MR. HAYES: That means I'm going to have EFTA00119129

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 to bring a sharp object in here. Is that going 2 to bother anybody? 3 MR. : No. No. 4 MR. : No. No. 5 MR. : No, no, no, no. 6 MR. HAYES: Okay. 7 MR. : I'm sorry, I thought you 8 were talking about, like, this hypothetical 9 situation of if we were in the MCC or 10 something. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. HAYES: Oh, no. No. This is just a - 13 14 MR. : You're just wanting to 15 know if you can use scissors. Yeah. That's 16 fine. 17 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 18 MR. : I guess we should wait 19 until he gets -- 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- back again. If we 22 speak loudly, will you be able to hear our 23 questions? 24 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 25 MR. : All right. We're going EFTA00119130

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to continue, then. The answer was yes. 2 MR. : I don't know if that was 3 somebody. 4 MR. : There might be clients in the 5 office. 6 MR. : Oh. 7 MR. : Huh? 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : That's why. 10 MR. : Then we will wait. 11 MR. : He wasn't kidding about the 12 knife. 13 MR. : Oh. 14 MR. HAYES: You know why I got this? This 15 movie called Gangs of New York. 16 MR. : That's a great movie. 17 MR. HAYES: And he - and a good movie - 18 and the lead actress was a woman named Cameron 19 Diaz. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. HAYES: And I had a wild eyed crush on 22 Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife - 23 seriously - I found the guy who made the knife 24 that she carried in the show, and I said, I 25 want you to make me an exact duplicate. How EFTA00119131

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 sick is that? Of that knife. And so, this is 2 it. 3 MR. : That's super cool. 4 MR. HAYES: So. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Sorry. I'll ask a few 7 more questions before we get into these 8 documents. Were any plans made on how to 9 address this situation for if Reyes was removed 10 as Epstein's cellmate? Like, if he -. Because 11 I know at MCC, inmates certainly leave. 12 (Indiscernible *01:26:13). 13 MR. : No. I mean, the plan would 14 have been, you know, we would have assessed it, 15 because usually, you get ahead of time, we 16 would have just said, okay, when is -? When 17 Reyes leaves, or you know, when he was leaving, 18 then before he was placed back in that cell, an 19 assessment would have been made. 20 MR. : Okay. Now, what is your 21 understanding of what happened with inmate 22 Reyes on August 9th, 2019? 23 MR. : When I got back after the 24 fact, I guess the Marshals came and removed him 25 from the institution. EFTA00119132

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 MR. : Okay. So, there is a lot 2 of people we've talked to thought he went to 3 court, and that at court, it was determined he 4 wasn't coming back. Had you heard that? 5 MR. : That's what I heard, too. I 6 had heard he was going to court. And then, I 7 guess word got back that he wasn't coming back. 8 That's what I heard. So, I never got 9 (Indiscernible *01:27:00). 10 MR. HAYES: It's either a good day in 11 court, or a bad day in court. 12 MR. : Yeah. I never got the 13 actual story because I was, I was removed. So. 14 MR. : Okay. And again, what 15 does WAB mean? 16 MR. : It means With All 17 Belongings. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : But I don't know, and I 20 don't know if people will say that he left, and 21 then they went and got him from the office. 22 So, I am not sure. 23 MR. : Okay. So, this is -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- one of those documents EFTA00119133

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 that says -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : -- from to 4 you. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : With inmate Epstein as 7 the subject. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : And it says, "So far, 10 this is the documentation I have in my 11 possession." 12 MR. HAYES: Wow. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : And if you see, you know, 15 here, it talks about all the documentation 16 pertaining to him. These look like all the BOP 17 database -- 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : -- things. Then down 20 here, it says, "Documentation re: Reyes, Efrain 21 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : reg number 85993-054. 24 Cellmate." 25 MR. HAYES: Right. EFTA00119134

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : It says, "Court 3 documentation regarding WAB 8/09 -- 4 MR. : '19. 5 MR. : -- '19. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : And then, also SHU file. 8 So, "Showing court documentation regarding WAB 9 8/09/19." What documentation is she referring 10 to there? 11 MR. : I guess whatever came 12 through R&D. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : Our Receiving and Discharge. 15 They might have gotten -. They must have 16 gotten information to release him, and that he 17 was being transferred. 18 MR. : So, would it be at all- I 19 know R&D creates something called, like, a 20 court production list, or 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- would that be what 23 she's talking about, the court production list, 24 or would she be, do you think -- 25 MR. : So -- EFTA00119135

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 MR. : -- or, like, a PP-38, or 2 something, or whatever -? 3 MR. : I think, and I'm speculating 4 now, it was probably the court list, and it 5 probably said, we're sending him off to court. 6 And it was a possibility that he might be 7 getting released. 8 MR. : Because the document that 9 has been ealuding me -- 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : -- is that court 12 production list. Do you know if that was ever 13 obtained? Do you know, the thing that, that 14 R&D creates this list, they provide it to the - 15 16 MR. : Oh, the court -- 17 MR. : -- different housing 18 units. 19 MR. : -- list. I don't. I don't 20 know what they do with it. 21 MR. : They just, they all say 22 they -- 23 MR. : Now -- 24 MR. : -- destroy it after that 25 time. EFTA00119136

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 MR. : Yeah, they do, but -- 2 MR. : But -- 3 MR. : -- with him -- 4 MR. : -- but that's what would 5 have been used by the SHU staff, in order to 6 produce Reyes to the R&D. 7 MR. : No. Not necessarily. What 8 typically happens is, the R&D staff will call 9 up to SHU, and say, hey, I need Reyes down. He 10 has court. Or he's being released. So, there 11 wouldn't have been a document sent up. 12 MR. : So, everyone that we 13 talked to said R&D said, yes, we created this 14 document. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : And the SHU staff, 17 including the OIC, said, yes, we had 18 documentation showing that he was WAB. So 19 then, and they all said it was because it was 20 this court production list that you sent out 21 emails to -. 22 MR. : Unless it's sent in the 23 early morning. 24 MR. : And it's not something 25 that's sent electronically. It's something EFTA00119137

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 they said that they generate, print out 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : -- and hand to 4 different, the ops lieutenant has one, every 5 housing unit has one. Internal goes around and 6 collects people, based upon it or something. I 7 think. And then -- 8 MR. : So -- 9 MR. : -- then they basically 10 destroy it at the end of the day, and nothing 11 is maintained in the system. They just use a 12 template, and create a new one for every day. 13 MR. : So, that must have been the 14 early court movement. So, I was under the 15 impression that he was, he left in the 16 afternoon. So, when typically in the 17 afternoon, they will just call up and say, hey, 18 we got one that's leaving. So, I assumed he 19 had left that afternoon. 20 MR. : Okay. So, is it, then, 21 are you not - then to answer that question - 22 are you not sure exactly what she's referring 23 to when she says "court documentation regarding 24 WAB"? 25 MR. : Like, the way you explained EFTA00119138

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 it, then that means they were talking about 2 morning courts. 3 MR. : Well, that's what they 4 were -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : I'm just talking about 7 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- specifically, what 10 she's talking about in this email to you. Do 11 you -? 12 MR. : But when you say WAB, With 13 All Belongings, it depends on the time of day 14 they left. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : You know? You could have 17 afternoon court, and you don't have that list 18 generated, and they say -- 19 MR. : But if -- 20 MR. : -- we need all his 21 belongings. 22 MR. : -- this might help -- 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : -- and then, we will keep 25 this in front of you -- EFTA00119139

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : -- this might help 3 explain this. So, this is an email that was 4 sent from the U.S. Marshal Service, someone 5 named III (Phonetic Sp. *01:30:50). 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : On Thursday, August 8th, 8 2019, at 10:33 a.m. It says, "Transfer of 9 prisoners from NYM -- 10 MR. : To GEO. 11 MR. : -- to GEO. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : The following prisoners 14 are to be transferred." The second person 15 listed out of the two is, "Reyes, Efrain." 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : "85993-054." 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : "Please schedule the 20 transfer for Friday, 8/09/2019. Please include 21 seven days medication with the medical summary. 22 Thank you." 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : So, this obviously was 25 sent to R&D. Correct? EFTA00119140

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. HAYES: Do we know what kind of 3 medication he was taking? 4 MR. : Well, that's Efrain 5 Reyes. We're not talking about -. 6 7 MR. : That's Reyes. MR. : We're not -. 8 MR. HAYES: I know. I just am curious. 9 MR. : It's not -- 10 MR. HAYES: We don't know? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. HAYES: -- relevant. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. HAYES: Okay. 15 MR. : I don't think it's 16 relevant. Here is another email that the U.S. 17 Marshal Service sent. This time, it was at 18 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. -: 21 It says, "Prisoner production." 22 looks like it was sent to custody. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. On Thursday, August 8th, 25 2019, at 3:36 p.m. And thcn, this, this EFTA00119141

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 document, prisoner schedule report is attached. 2 And -- 3 MR. : You're looking at the second 4 one. 5 MR. : -- so, for the MCC -- 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : -- it shows right here, 8 the second person listed as Efrain Reyes. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : And it just says, "TF, 11 transfer within. MCC New York." And right 12 here, it says, Judge MCC Tot, T-O-T. GEO. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : What I was told, that 15 means that he's transferring from the MCC to 16 GEO. Is that -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- your understanding? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : And then, on this one, 21 this is the PP-38. On the third - for 22 8/09/2019 - on the third page, it shows Reyes, 23 from ZO6-22. And that means the SHU. Correct? 24 MR. : Yes. SHU. 25 MR. : To pre-remove. EFTA00119142

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : At 8:38 a.m. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : So, this was 8:38 a.m. 5 He's keyed out of our system. We got these two 6 emails from the U.S. Marshal Service, saying 7 he's being transferred. 8 MR. HAYES: So, wait. Let me get this 9 clear. He's being transferred to what place to 10 what place? 11 MR. : From the MCC to GEO. 12 MR. HAYES: And what is GEO? 13 MR. : A contract facility. 14 MR. HAYES: And what is a contract 15 facility? 16 MR. : A private prison. 17 MR. HAYES: Okay. And you had nothing to 18 do with -? In other words, somebody else 19 decides to go from one place to another 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. HAYES: -- you (Indiscernible 22 *01:33:11). Okay. 23 MR. : The Marshals -. 24 MR. HAYES: And would that be the judge or 25 the Marshals? EFTA00119143

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MR. : The Marshals, I guess. The 2 judge. I don't know how the Marshals work, but 3 they -- 4 MR. : Prosecutors. Marshals. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Judge. 7 MR. HAYES: Okay. 8 MR. : All in coordination, make 9 those determinations. But, and then, here is 10 an email from you to Mr. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : With what you are talking 13 about, that memo. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : It says, "On Friday, 16 August 9th, 2019," but before we even get into 17 that, now that you have seen this, you have 18 seen these two emails. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : From the Marshal Service 21 on August 8th. On August 9th, at 8:38, R&D 22 actually keys him out. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : All of them say pre- 25 removed or transferred. EFTA00119144

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/ 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Does that now tell you 3 anything about this, court documentation 4 regarding WAS? 5 MR. : Yeah. Now, it explains that 6 they had gotten a court order to have him go 7 out. 8 MR. : So, what do you think is 9 referred to that court documentation? 10 MR. : I guess it must be all of 11 these documents right here. 12 MR. : This? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : So, what we're actually 15 looking at, you think she's referring to? 16 MR. : That's, I think, that's what 17 she was referring to. 18 MR. : All right. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So, court documentation 21 meaning, documentation from the Marshal 22 Service, saying that he was going to be 23 transferred? 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : All right. Now, based EFTA00119145

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 upon what you are looking at here, specifically 2 from the Marshal Service -- 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : -- and the fact that 5 Efrain Reyes, whom -. Is it -? I've been told 6 that everyone at the MCC knew who Reyes was 7 because they knew he was Epstein's cellmate. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : But at the very least, 10 everyone in the SHU should have known who 11 Efrain Reyes was. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Because he was Epstein's 14 cellmate. What should have happened once, on 15 August 8th, as early as 10:33 a.m., and as late 16 as 3:33 p.m., the day before Reyes is 17 transferred, what should have happened? 18 MR. : As far as Epstein getting a 19 cellmate? 20 MR. : Correct. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : The notification is being 23 made that this person is being transferred, 24 everyone gathers him up. And so, what this, 25 I'm going to read this just to give you more EFTA00119146

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 information -- 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : -- on his backtrack. 4 This is a memorandum, dated August the 12th, 5 2019, to the warden - yourself. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : From , who, my 8 understanding is he was the OIC of the SHU at 9 the time. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : It says, "Subject passed 12 information from Special Housing Unit." So, 13 "On a Friday, August 9th, 2019, at 14 approximately 1:50 p.m., I, SOS 15 passed onto oncoming staff member, Officer 16 , and present shift staff, SOS and 17 Officer , that inmate Reyes was goin: 18 WAB, and possibly may not return. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Also, that inmate Epstein 21 will be needing a cellmate upon arrival from 22 his attorney visit." Now, what this doesn't 23 state is that Officer , or SOS 24 walked, I mean, both Epstein -- 25 MR. HAYES: I'll go get that. EFTA00119147

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 MR. as well as Reyes, down 2 to R&D -- 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : -- with all belongings. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Spoke with both Epstein 7 and Mr. Reyes, and stated to Mr. - I think 8 Reyes stated to - make sure you get 9 him a cellmate. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : I'm not coming back. And 12 responding to Mr. Epstein, saying, 13 "Don't worry. We're going to get you a new 14 cellmate." 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Now, with all that 17 information, being that he is the OIC, he's 18 working in the SHU, he knows that he's WAB. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : We've got all this stuff 21 going on. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : This is the real big 24 reason why I want to talk to you -- 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119148

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- as the warden. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : This is kind of our 4 primary purpose -- 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : -- for us being here. 7 So, I apologize if you're going into that, but 8 I want you to have all the information -- 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : -- before I answer. What 11 should have happened here? So, R&D is 12 contacted the day before, or two days before 13 Epstein, or Epstein is found. One day before 14 Reyes is, you know, gone. They contacted both 15 custody, as well as R&D. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : R&D pre-removes him at 18 8:38 on 8/09. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : The SHU OIC walks him 21 down, to R&D -- 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- and actually has this 24 conversation with Epstein and Reyes, saying, I 25 know you are WAB, we're going to get you a new EFTA00119149

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 staff, we're going to get you a new cellmate. 2 MR. HAYES: Which means - WAB means what? 3 MR. : With All Belongings, 4 neans they're not coming back. 5 MR. HAYES: But Epstein is not coming 6 back? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : His cellmate. 9 MR. : Reyes. 10 MR. HAYES: Reyes. 11 MR. : His cellmate. 12 MR. HAYES: So, the theory is, if you are 13 investigating, somebody says that you're not 14 going to have a cellmate anymore, and in that 15 conversation, or present during that 16 conversation, is Epstein? 17 MR. : Epstein is present. Yes. 18 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, Epstein knows that 19 he's not going to have a cellmate for the 20 immediate future? 21 MR. : No. Epstein is going to 22 attorney conference. So, he's going to be -- 23 MR. HAYES: No, no, but I'm saying -- 24 MR. : -- in attorney conference 25 until about 7:00 p.m.. EFTA00119150

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 MR. HAYES: -- that Epstein knows that, 2 over the next, say, 24 hours, he's not going to 3 have a cellee. 4 MR. : No. , the OIC, 5 tells Epstein, as well as Reyes, that they are 6 going to get him a cellmate. Before he comes 7 back from attorney/client, his attorney visit. 8 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, Epstein would know 9 that he hasn't - going to have a cellmate. 10 MR. : Yeah, yeah. So, this 11 isn't part of the theory. What my question to 12 your client is, what should have happened based 13 upon the knowledge that he was WAB? The 14 contact with the Marshal Service, telling him 15 that he's being transferred. The fact that 16 R&D, you know, the OIC walked him down to R&D, 17 and R&D actually logged him out of our system. 18 What should have happened? 19 MR. : So, what should have 20 happened was, this information should have been 21 passed up to the supervisors. 22 MR. : At what point? 23 MR. : See, with the, this 24 information coming in, as far as, you know, 25 when R&D -- EFTA00119151

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- typically, it would come 3 up to the Special Housing Unit. Once it got up 4 to that, to the Special Housing Unit, the 5 lieutenants should have been notified. 6 MR. : Okay. And which 7 lieutenant? 8 MR. : Whoever was the SHU 9 lieutenant, whoever was the operations 10 lieutenant. 11 MR. : Now, on this case 12 MR. : If the -. 13 MR. : -- the SHU lieutenant is 14 also on leave. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : So, we've got the chief 17 psychologist on leave, the warden on leave, the 18 SHU lieutenant on leave. But we do have an ops 19 lieutenant, we do have an activities 20 lieutenant. And we do have a captain. 21 MR. : So, you should have let the 22 operations lieutenant know, if you didn't have 23 a SHU lieutenant. They, in turn, would let the 24 captain know, and the captain would push it up 25 to the execs then. Then, we would have to come EFTA00119152

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 to a determination on who we were going to 2 house with Epstein. 3 MR. : Now, if the operations 4 lieutenant, his name is 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : _• 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : If he says, yes, I know 11 Epstein was gone, but I believe that he was at 12 court -- 13 MR. : No. You mean -- 14 MR. : -- and he might be 15 returning back. 16 MR. : -- Reyes is gone. 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : So, knows 19 that -. Sorry, did I say Epstein? 20 MR. : Yeah. You said Epstein. 21 MR. : Yes. knows 22 that Reyes is gone. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : But I think he's at 25 court, and then, he might not be coming back. EFTA00119153

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 I didn't pass this information onto my relief, 2 who was (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:59). 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : However, as our 5 investigation has revealed, the ops lieutenant 6 also has one of these court production lists, 7 that lists Reyes -- 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : -- as WAB. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : With that knowledge, is 12 that a reason that he thinks that he went to 13 court, and might be coming back? 14 MR. : I can't interpret what his 15 thought process was, but if it said, you know, 16 he was leaving, and I don't know what he was 17 reading at the time. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : He could have been reading, 20 because sometimes the inmates do go out to 21 court and come back. So, I don't know. I 22 can't speak to what he read. Or why he made 23 that determination. 24 MR. HAYES: So, listen, wouldn't have most 25 inmates, when they go to court, come back? EFTA00119154

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 MR. : The point being here 2 MR. : What I'm saying 3 MR. he didn't go to court. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : He was transferred. 6 MR. : He was transferred. 7 MR. : And I know you might have 8 covered this, in your understanding, in your 9 experience at the MCC, if an inmate is listed 10 as WAB -- 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. -- With All Belongings -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : -- what is your 15 understanding? Are they coming back or are 16 they gone? 17 MR. : That means he's 18 transferring. 19 MR. : Has there been situations 20 where they come back? 21 MR. : There have been -- 22 MR. : After WAB? 23 MR. : -- situations that, you 24 know, they go out and they have to have them 25 sending them back, if there was an issue. EFTA00119155

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 MR. : Is that a unique situation, 2 or it happens quite often? 3 MR. : No. I wouldn't say. I 4 would say that it's probably unique. But 5 usually, WAB, they're gone. 6 MR. : So, as the operations 7 lieutenant, if you see somebody listed as WAB, 8 should he have understood that that person is 9 gone, and not coming back? 10 MR. : Should have. But then, 11 you're talking off the document. I don't know 12 what document they read. So, I don't want to 13 speculate what, you know, was it, you know, 14 send them to R&D, whether he saw that. I don't 15 know what document. But I'm saying, if it is 16 this document, that clearly stated WAB. 17 MR. : Okay. But as far as your 18 concern, it doesn't sound like what you were 19 saying is, , who was the OIC at the 20 time, should have he notified the ops 21 lieutenant? 22 MR. : Yes. Whoever is - yeah - 23 there should have notified the operations 24 lieutenant, hey, Reyes left, and -- 25 MR. HAYES: He needs a cellmate. EFTA00119156

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 MR. : -- he needs a cellmate, 2 MR. : Okay. So, would it fall 3 solely on the shoulders of 4 MR. : No. I mean, okay, so, 5 here's the other checks and balance. So, what 6 about the other people on the other shift? 7 MR. : That's my question. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So, or -- 10 MR. : I mean -- 11 MR. : -- or the people that are 12 working on his same shift. 13 MR. yeah. On his own same, 14 shift -- 15 MR. : So, who -- 16 MR. if it was the 17 notification should have been made to the 18 operations lieutenant. Or the captain. And 19 said, hey, cellmate left. He needs a cellmate. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. HAYES: And that cellmate would now, 22 at some point, he goes back to the cell, but 23 that's at the end of the day. 24 MR. : At the end of the day. 25 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, nobody is in a EFTA00119157

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 position to say, hey, he's in a cell by 2 himself. Until the end of the day. 3 MR. : Right. But the information 4 is passed onto each other. You know, when you 5 6 MR. : And they are supposed to 7 be doing 30-minute rounds, where they would 8 notice that one cell had zero inmates in it. 9 MR. : Had zero inmates in it. 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 11 MR. : So, I mean 12 MR. HAYES: And that's what brings us all 13 to -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. HAYES: -- here today. 16 MR. : So -- 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : I mean, that's how it 19 would have made, and when that got pushed up, 20 we would have said, okay, we would have to 21 formulate, okay, who can we get a cellmate for, 22 for Epstein? 23 MR. : And I apologize to ask 24 this because, but, like, so, on each shift 25 would be the OIC, that would be responsible for EFTA00119158

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 that. So, for instance, would be on 2 the day watch shift up until 2:00 p.m., he 3 would be the one to responsible to provide the 4 ops lieutenant, but then, the following shift, 5 would it be -- 6 MR. : Whoever is the -- 7 MR. : -- the next OIC -- 8 MR. right. 9 MR. : -- or would also the 10 people that are working in that unit, the other 11 SHU staff, would they be responsible? Or is 12 that a chain of command thing? Like, no, the 13 OIC is really the person making that 14 notification. 15 MR. : Everybody has a 16 responsibility for their safety. Everybody. 17 mean -- 18 MR. : Sure. 19 MR. : I might be the OIC, but I 20 have some responsibilities. If I know, okay, 21 you know what? They might need a cellmate, 22 because I, in essence, I can have an individual 23 assigned to that post, and they're just filling 24 in for somebody that, the regular person that's 25 up there. And then, I have the regular people EFTA00119159

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 working up there, who are familiar with what's 2 going on. So, it's kind of everyone's 3 responsibility. You know? 4 MR. : So, is everyone kind of 5 equally responsible, then, for this? That was 6 working there and didn't pass the information 7 on. 8 MR. HAYES: Can you say? Don't guess. 9 MR. : You know what? 10 MR. : No, as the warden, he 11 would be able to say. 12 MR. : I mean, it should have been, 13 it should have been passed on. So, I don't 14 know the dynamics to, as far as what was going 15 on that day, who was working up there. What 16 rounds were being made -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- up there. You know, was 19 the lieutenant coming around? Was the captain? 20 How busy they were. 21 MR. : So, the lieutenant was 22 not on - the lieutenant of the SHU - was not 23 on. However, we do have records that the 24 activities lieutenant at least visited -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119160

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 MR. : -- the SHU -- 2 MR. : You have -- 3 MR. : -- at that point. 4 MR. : -- you have two other 5 lieutenants. Now, I don't know if you are 6 familiar with the Special Housing Unit, but it 7 is a very busy unit. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : You know, you're giving out 10 showers. You're giving out recreation. You're 11 doing a whole lot of stuff. You, you know, 12 running around all day, and, you know, 13 sometimes things happen. 14 MR. : Understood. But in this 15 case, wasn't Epstein at your most high-profile 16 inmate? At that time. 17 MR. : I mean, besides my terrorist 18 inmates that I had up there on Ten South. 19 MR. : Well, I guess, at least 20 the Nine South. 21 MR. : I would say he was a high- 22 profile. Yeah. He was a high-profile inmate. 23 MR. : Is it, I mean, on that 24 note, don't you think that they would have, you 25 know, found it pretty important to notify? EFTA00119161

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 Especially they - and I don't know that we 2 brought this today - but there was even signs 3 up that they created, saying, "Mandatory 30- 4 minute rounds on Epstein, signed by God." Or 5 something, you know, along the lines. Not, you 6 know, meaning, like, do this. You know? Like 7 8 MR. : No, that was me. 9 MR. HAYES: Is that right? 10 MR. : That was me. No. I mean, I 11 mean, but it was emphasized to them. I mean, 12 so, no one could say that they didn't know. 13 MR. : So, point being, there 14 was, like, signs specific to even Epstein, 15 check on this guy every 30 minutes. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : You know, orange signs 18 that are posted up there. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : So, point being, with 21 this -- 22 MR. : It should have been passed 23 up. 24 MR. : -- and that is where -. 25 So, for us, I guess -- EFTA00119162

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : -- again, and I know that 3 you are probably trying to, you know, hesitate 4 on maybe saying, like, this person did 5 something wrong, but really, who dropped the 6 ball here? Knowing, though, that you could 7 take a look, the day before, all these people 8 are the ones who received the email -- 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : -- in custody. And so, I 11 know we see Lieutenant . I'm sure - I'm 12 assuming would be on there. 13 MR. : I think is on there. 14 MR. : Who? 15 MR. : Is on there? 16 MR. : It's just -- 17 MR. : I didn't see 18 MR. : -- maybe. 19 MR. : But again, this one, that 20 one is not even as clear. This one 21 specifically spells out -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : -- this one, you would 24 actually have to go in and look at this 25 prisoner's schedule report. • EFTA00119163

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me just take a 2 look, just so I have, my mind is clear. There 3 is a prisoner's schedule. The prisoner's 4 schedule literally means prisoner's schedule. 5 MR. : Well, yeah. So, the 6 prisoner's schedule report is something like 7 this, but it will tell you that they are either 8 going to, like, transfer, or they are going to 9 go to court. Whereas this other document that 10 was sent to R&D was just specifically about the 11 transfer. 12 MR. HAYES: Okay. But there is nothing 13 that says recreation, personnel care. It's 14 mostly going to and from court, or leaving the 15 institution. 16 MR. : Yeah. Because it's a 17 prisoner's schedule. 18 MR. HAYES: Okay. 19 MR. : Report. 20 MR. HAYES: Okay. 21 MR. : So, it's, like, what they 22 are scheduled to do. Sorry. Yeah. No. It's 23 not, like, what their daily schedule is. Like, 24 in the institution. 25 MR. HAYES: Right. EFTA00119164

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 MR. : It's a U.S. Marshal 2 Service report that isthcy just provided to the 3 BOP, so that they know which inmates -- 4 MR. HAYES: Right. 5 MR. -- they need to produce, 6 and for what reason. 7 MR. HAYES: Okay. Got it. 8 MR. : Now, is that correct? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : So, yeah. Based upon 11 what you are looking at here, on the 8th, and 12 then again, what we know about at the 13 very least producing, at 8:00, knowing he was 14 WAB, and R&D knowing he was WAB. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : What should have happened 17 there? Like, who, in your opinion here, 18 dropped the ball? 19 MR. : I think at all levels, it 20 was the checks and balance. If it went to the 21 lieutenant's office, somebody should have 22 picked it up. Working in the unit. It should 23 have been passed up to the lieutenant's office. 24 So, there were a couple of safety nets that 25 could have caught it. EFTA00119165

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 MR. : So, pretty much everybody 2 dropped the ball? 3 MR. : I mean, if we're looking at 4 it like this, if you're saying going by an 5 email being sent around. 6 MR. : Well, not only the email, 7 but I mean, the email, I can understand if 8 people are busy and they don't always, you 9 know, this one -- 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : -- it would be hard to - 12 that one would be hard to -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : -- you know, say that you 15 didn't know. This one, I could see maybe, you 16 know, the prisoner's schedule 17 MR. : Well, this one, I don't 18 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 19 *01:48:52). 20 MR. : I mean, I don't know what 21 gets sent out. I know, if this whole thing, I 22 don't know if it gets sent out to the staff. 23 think more 24 MR. : Well, this is -- 25 MR. : -- of a condensed version. EFTA00119166

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MR. : -- this is with this. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : So, this was what was 4 sent with this. This was sent specifically, 5 just that. It's not a document. That's the 6 body. 7 MR. : Right. That was sent. 8 MR. : But that is, again, R&D. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : But, which again, R&D - 11 we didn't cover this - R&D is outside of 12 custody. Correct? 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : But speaking with R&D, 15 they said they would have produced this list, 16 which SHU would have had, as well as ops 17 lieutenant -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- the lieutenant's 20 office, all the housing units, which 4 —listed 21 Reyes as WAB. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : Do you know if they are 24 actually looking - like, the lieutenant's 25 office, people in the lieutenant's office, or EFTA00119167

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 the ops lieutenant, activities lieutenant - are 2 they actually look at that list and saying, or 3 that's just based upon the busyness of their 4 day? 5 MR. : Yeah. I wouldn't speculate. 6 I mean, I don't know. I can't say what -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. lieutenant is looking at 9 stuff. I mean, it's, like, the documents. 10 MR. : No. I mean, but should 11 have they, I guess is the question? 12 MR. : As far as what? Emails that 13 are coming through, on who's leaving? 14 MR. : No, no, no. This would 15 be a physical paper that they were provided. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Internal would go around 18 and provide everybody with this physical paper 19 that they create, and then, they apparently 20 destroy it at the end of the day. 21 MR. : Right. So, I don't know it 22 the, you know, when internal gets the forms to 23 go, they are dropping it off at different 24 units. So, I don't know if one was passed off 25 to the lieutenant. The lieutenant would - I EFTA00119168

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE L. 1 guess this probably be the only document -- 2 MR. : No, no, no. 3 MR. : -- they tear up. 4 MR. : We are being told, by the 5 lieutenants, as well as -- 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : -- by R&D, they all have 8 it, and they all, and it would all - and it 9 would have said WAB. Unfortunately, I haven't 10 found that document to show you this is what 11 I'm referring to. But it's a document they 12 apparently create, which they call the court 13 production list. Are you -- 14 MR. : The court list. 15 MR. : -- yeah. 16 MR. : I've heard of the court 17 list. 18 MR. : But it's like a 19 MR. : And it -. 20 MR. : -- from my understanding, 21 it is an informal document that they are just 22 providing so that, you know, these are the 23 people that we need to produce today. 24 MR. : For internal, yeah. The 25 internal officer goes around and drops them off EFTA00119169

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 at every, you know, every unit, like hey, I 2 need this guy, I need that guy. It's a court 3 list. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : In the morning. 6 MR. : Exactly. 7 MR. : So, yeah, that's not 8 anything that's kept on record. 9 MR. : Right. So, I guess the 10 question, though, being that they had these 11 court lists, is another one of these checks and 12 balances? Or is that really just for the 13 Special Housing Unit? 14 MR. : I think they You mean as 15 far as the court list, I don't understand your 16 question, but -- 17 MR. : Yeah. It's just getting 18 back to the point of, like, Reyes left. We 19 were notified on the 8th. He left on the 20 morning of the 9th. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : Epstein was found on the 23 10th. Didn't have a cellmate for 24 hours, and 24 we knew for almost 48 hours. What should have 25 happened, and who didn't do their job? Is EFTA00119170

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 really the question. 2 MR. : And like I said before, when 3 the notification, whoever was on the unit, knew 4 that he was leaving, it should have been passed 5 up to his supervisor. 6 MR. : All right. 7 MR. : This guy is leaving. But 8 then, okay, let's say the supe, or whoever is 9 working in there, doesn't do it, and somebody 10 should have stepped up and said, hey, this guy 11 needs a cellmate. And notified the lieutenant 12 that he needs a cellmate. 13 MR. : And that goes back to my, 14 anyone that was working in the SHU, should have 15 made that notification. 16 MR. : Should have said it. It 17 doesn't just -. Just because you are not OIC, 18 doesn't mean all the responsibilities falls on 19 you. It's everybody's job up there to say, 20 hey, okay, we need to, you know, this is what 21 we need to do. 22 MR. : And would that be the 23 case for, when he left during the day shift -- 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : -- the next shift is the EFTA00119171

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 night shift, when he would have - I believe 2 during the night shift - he would have come 3 back -- 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- and again, if they 6 were doing rounds, they would have noticed that 7 Reyes wasn't there in the first place. But 8 also, certainly, when they brought -- 9 MR. : Epstein back. 10 MR. : -- Epstein back to his 11 cell. There would have been no cellmate in 12 there. 13 MR. : You should have known he was 14 a cellmate. 15 MR. : And would it be the same 16 thing for the morning shift? That they would 17 know that Epstein was in there alone? 18 MR. : Because if the morning shift 19 is doing their 30-minute checks, you would have 20 realized he was in there by himself. 21 MR. : So, should have every 22 single shift reported it to the ops lieutenant, 23 that there is no one -? 24 MR. : Whoever caught it should 25 have, you know, let's say one shift missed it, EFTA00119172

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 the next shift should have picked up and said, 2 you know, called and said, lieutenant, we got a 3 - this guy needs a -- 4 MR. HAYES: A cellmate. 5 MR. : -- a cellmate. 6 MR. : And again, I know we're 7 Monday morning quarterback because of the 8 result here, but what is your - as the warden 9 of the institution, on these dateys - how do 10 you interpret this? Is this a really 11 significant failure on their part, the not have 12 caught this and passed that information up? 13 MR. : It's not following the 14 directive. I mean, and then, look at result. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : So, I mean, the result is 17 what, you know, caused it to be a serious 18 matter. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Now, as far as going back 22 to this memo, do you know why Mr. 23 wrote this memo.,L 24 MR. : I forgot. I might have 25 called -. I might have called Lieutenant EFTA00119173

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 and said - and I don't know if he was 2 working - said, what happened up there? 3 MR. : Now, when you say 4 because he was the ops lieutenant, or are you 5 talking about who was the SHU lieutenant? 6 MR. -: , who was the 7 operations -. Because first, I know when I got 8 back, somebody told me wasn't at work, 9 because that was my first question. Who was 10 the SHU lieutenant? Where they are at. And 11 then, I think I did reach out to and 12 said, what happened up there? 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : And that's when I found that 15 out. 16 MR. : And did you ever speak 17 with either or about this? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Because by the time I had 21 gotten it, was the day -. That, I got that the 22 day of, when I had to go up to, I think the 23 U.S. Attorney's Office. 24 MR. : Okay. To speak with them 25 about this? EFTA00119174

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 MR. : When I speak up to them, and 2 them the agent had the memorandum. 3 MR. : He already had it on him? 4 MR. : He had it on him. Because 5 he was during the interrogation, he presented 6 it to the U.S. Attorney that was there. 7 MR. : And was that the first 8 time you had seen it? 9 MR. : No. I think I -. I don't 10 recall when I first saw it, but I know I had 11 gotten it. And I don't know if I had gotten 12 it, and then sent it up to my boss. And then, 13 given it to the IG. I forgot. I forget his 14 name, and who was handling the case. 15 MR. : For the IG? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. -• 18 MR. : If you weren't giving it 19 to (Indiscernible *01:55:18), it would have 20 been 21 MR. : Because he sat in there with 22 us. 23 MR. •• 24 MR. : So, he - I remember - he had 25 a copy of it. EFTA00119175

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Because we had told him that 3 they knew that they were supposed to -. 4 MR. : So, not including when 5 you were speaking with the OIG and the FBI, did 6 you discuss this at all with anyone from the 7 BOP, such as or 8 MR. : No. I just got the 9 memorandum, and that was it. Because I was, 10 like, wanting to know, like, what happened. 11 The, you know, the directives were given. What 12 happened? 13 MR. : And when you asked what 14 happened, was there a verbal response? 15 MR. : It was a verbal response. 16 MR. : And what did you -? What 17 were you told? 18 MR. : That they knew he was 19 supposed to -. That had passed it on 20 to other individuals about it. 21 MR. : Now, do you think that 22 that -. What is your thought process of 23 who is the one who actually presented 24 - excuse me - Reyes to R&D and WAB, what is 25 your thought of him now saying, you know, prior EFTA00119176

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 to the end of my shift at 2:00 p.m., I passed 2 it on to the next guy, saying that you guys got 3 to do it. 4 MR. : Now -- 5 MR. : Do you think he should 6 have done it, passed the informateetion on 7 during his shift? 8 MR. : Yeah. Absolutely. It 9 should have been letting the lieutenant know. 10 MR. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : That, hey, this is - we got 12 a guy that needs to be -- 13 MR. HAYES: A cellmate. 14 MR. : -- that needs a cellmate. 15 MR. : I should clarify that. 16 MR. : What? 17 MR. : I think on the elevator it 18 was 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. -: was escorting Reyes 21 down to R&D. And was escorting 22 Epstein over to attorney conference. They just 23 happened to cross paths, I think -- 24 MR. : Yeah, they were together, 25 though. Right? EFTA00119177

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 MR. : -- yeah, but I think is 2 the one that brought him down to the - Reyes - 3 down to R&D. 4 MR. : Then that would make sense. 5 Because if is internal, internal takes 6 him to court. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : And then, if somebody is 9 going to R&D, I mean, to attorney visit, then 10 it would be SHU staff taking him. 11 MR. : All right. So, if 12 is the one who is actually providing him to 13 R&D, did he have a responsibility, that if he 14 was WAB, to make any notifications? 15 MR. : I don't know if internal -. 16 You know, was internal, and I don't know 17 if he knew, you know, the situation. 18 MR. : And typically, would it 19 be internal's job - if they come and collect 20 somebody as WAB - would it be their job to tell 21 control, or the ops lieutenant, to say this guy 22 is off our books, or anything, or -? 23 MR. : No. Because we have a lot 24 of inmates that move in and out. 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00119178

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 MR. : So, he wouldn't be able to 2 keep track of every particular inmate that is 3 going and coming. 4 MR. : Okay. Basically, 5 everyone had a share of responsibility? 6 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:57:54). 7 MR. : All right. Before we 8 belabor this thing anymore, we want to just 9 initial and date these both documents. We can 10 get them out of your way and move on. 11 MR. : All of them? 12 MR. : Oh, yeah. Top of this, 13 top of this. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : This guy. You know, this 16 one. All right. 17 MR. : Let me take this. 18 MR. : Thank you, sir. Now, 19 prior to this meeting, did you know that Reyes 20 was actually transferred at MCC, and didn't go 21 to court? 22 MR. : Wait, prior to when? 23 MR. : This meeting. 24 MR. : Oh, no. I knew he -. I 25 heard that. You know? After his death, that EFTA00119179

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 he was -- 2 MR. : Transferred. 3 MR. : -- removed. That he was 4 transferred. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : When I came in on Saturday. 7 MR. : Were you required - or I 8 mean - were you aware that the Marshal Service 9 had sent those emails on August 8th, 2019? 10 MR. : I was not aware. 11 MR. : No? Well, did anyone 12 ever, prior to August 10th, did anyone ever 13 make you aware that Reyes was transferred from 14 the institution? 15 MR. : Prior to October 10th? 16 MR. : August 10th. 2019. 17 MR. : I found out when I came in 18 that morning, because I -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. was, like, where is his 21 cellmate? 22 MR. : Okay. So, you didn't 23 know that he didn't have a cellmate on August 24 9th? 25 MR. : No, I did not. EFTA00119180

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 163 1 MR. : Now, who was ultimately 2 responsible to make sure that Epstein has a 3 cellmate? 4 MR. : I mean, if it's the 5 directive that is given out, I mean, whoever is 6 working decide - passes it up, and then, that 7 ensures, you know, to make sure he has a 8 cellmate. So -. 9 MR. : So, SHU staff. 10 MR. : Whoever was working up 11 there. 12 MR. : Okay. When you say 13 working up there, does that include, like, 14 lieutenants doing lieutenant rounds and things 15 like that? Or -? 16 MR. : Well, yeah, from what 17 transpired, it is obvious the lieutenants 18 didn't know. I mean, they knew he was, based 19 on the email that, you know, they knew he was 20 leaving, but as far as when the finality of it 21 was, when you realize, okay, Reyes is gone. 22 You take Epstein, you bring him back up in his 23 cell, and he doesn't have a cellmate. I mean, 24 something should have went off on somebody to 25 make some notifications. EFTA00119181

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 MR. : Okay. I know we're going 2 to talk about counts. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. HAYES: Wait, wait. The notification. 6 Would that go up as high as you? If someone 7 would say? 8 MR. : They would send it up to the 9 lieutenants, then they would tell the captain. 10 And the captain would let the associate warden 11 know, and then it would get up to me. 12 MR. : Especially an instance 13 since you have a say in who -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. -: gotcha. 16 MR. : We would have to sit down 17 and say, okay, of all the available individuals 18 that are on the unit now, who can we house 19 Epstein with? 20 MR. : Now, what about in the 21 this case, where as you actually weren't 22 working that day, would that -- 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : -- should have they 25 called you -- EFTA00119182

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Yeah. Whoever is -- MR. : -- on the -? MR. -- whoever was the acting warden. MR. : That would make the determination? MR. : She would have made the determination to. MR. : Who was the acting warden that day, do you know? MR. : I don't know if I left or in -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- as the acting. MR. : One of those two. MR. : It would be one of those two. MR. : And it wouldn't be the • MR. assistantee. MR. No. He's the executive : Now, what is the difference between, like, an executive assistance and an AW? MR. : The associate warden is a EFTA00119183

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 GS-14, and the executive assistant is a 13. 2 MR. : Okay. So, they are not - 3 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : -- but what, is that 6 executive assistant just mainly to assist you 7 in your functions? 8 MR. : He assists in the functions. 9 I had also given him some other departments to 10 monitor. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : So, they manage, also, those 13 other departments. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : I just got a question. 16 don't know if you may be asked him about the 17 backup list. Was there a backup list of names? 18 MR. : For? 19 MR. : I think, I think we did 20 talk about it, but if Reyes - we did -- 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : -- but -- 23 MR. : Sorry. 24 MR. : -- when we talked about 25 if Reyes was removed because the institution EFTA00119184

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 always has people coming and going -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : -- so frequently, was 4 there, like, a list that was set in place, that 5 we would now consider these people, or would it 6 be just the whole new -? 7 MR. : No. Because we would have 8 to base it on who was there. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Because of the turnover in 11 the unit. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : All right. Now, we're 14 going to get into counts. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : So, this is an email sent 17 from you to Mr. . It's the count slips 18 for -- 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : -- it was sent on 21 Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 5:11 p.m. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : This shows, ZA is the 24 SHU. Correct? 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119185

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 MR. : So, this says, at 8:10, 2 it shows that the count for ZA was 73. Signed 3 by M. Thomas and Ms. Noel. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : And it says, that count 6 was done, it looks like, at -- 7 MR. : 12:01 a.m. 8 MR. : -- 12:01 a.m. And then, 9 we get the next one is at 3:00 a.m. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : It goes down to 72. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : At 5:00 a.m., there is 14 72. And here is the count, the institutional 15 count, it shows 72 at - what time? - 12:00 a.m. 16 Or no. This one is 3:00 a.m. 17 MR. : 3:00 a.m. 18 MR. : I don't know why this is 19 all out of order. 5:00 a.m. So, at 12:00 20 a.m., this says 72. 72. 21 MR. : I think that was just an 22 MR. : 72. 23 MR. : -- attachment to that email 24 that you sent. 25 MR. : So, but as you know, as EFTA00119186

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 you notice, one of them said -. So, the count 2 slip said 73 for 12:00 a.m., over the 3 institutional count. And as you see here, for 4 12:00 a.m., it said 72. 5 MR. HAYES: By the institution, you mean 6 the SHU? 7 MR. : No. The institution. 8 MR. : It means the whole. 9 MR. : MCC does a count -- 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- and -- 12 MR. HAYES: Right. 13 MR. : it's= what the 14 official -- 15 MR. HAYES: The count. 16 MR. : -- number show 17 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Okay. 18 MR. the SHU, these count 19 slips are supposed to be the -. Actually, let 20 you, you can answer my question. What is 21 supposed to be the difference between what 22 happens with the count slip, and what happens 23 with the institutional count? So, I'm not 24 answering your question. 25 MR. : So, what happens is, on the EFTA00119187

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 shift, you call the count, and the different 2 units call in the count to control center. 3 MR. : And how do they get that 4 count number? 5 MR. : From counting. They have to 6 go around and count. 7 MR. : Physically counting an 8 inmate? 9 MR. : You have to -- 10 MR. : Correct? 11 MR. : -- physically count the 12 bodies. 13 MR. : And then, they take that 14 total amount of inmates, and they call that 15 into the control center? 16 MR. : They call that into the 17 control. 18 MR. : And where does the 19 control center get their numbers from? 20 MR. : This is what is called an 21 El. Which is a print out of the number of 22 inmates in each unit. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : So, if an instance, for 25 example, we look at BA unit. So, there is EFTA00119188

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 171 1 supposed to be 26 in there. If somebody calls 2 it in there, they say, it says 25, they tell me 3 it's a bad count. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : So, they have to go back and 6 count again. 7 MR. : So, the El is created 8 based upon what inmates are listed within your 9 system. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : The count slips are based 12 upon how many inmates they actually count. 13 MR. : What they count. 14 MR. : And the purpose of that 15 is what? Why are the inmates counting inmates, 16 and why are they providing that number to 17 control? 18 MR. : So, we make sure every 19 inmate is in the institution. 20 MR. : The accountability of the 21 inmates. Correct? 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : Great. So, the - so, 24 does that answer your question? 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119189

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 1 MR. : So, the next email is 2 sent about one hour later, at 6:13 p.m., on 3 August 10th. It says, "Why did the count 4 change from 73 to 72 between 12:00 a.m. and 5 3:00 a.m.?" 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Do you remember what your 8 response was to that? 9 MR. : I don't. 10 MR. : And then, this one is 11 another one from III to yourself. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : It says, "The 12:00 a.m. 14 count slip reads 73, and the 12:00 a.m. -- 15 MR. : El. 16 MR. : -- El says 72." 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : So, those kind of go 19 together. Do you remember what your findings 20 were there? 21 MR. : I don't remember. Because 22 typically what happens on the count, you are 23 supposed to - the lieutenant is supposed to 24 take one count at night, and then review 25 documentation. So, I don't know what happened EFTA00119190

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 1 with the discrepancy. 2 MR. HAYES: I mean, this isn't really that 3 relevant, because we noted Epstein was there. 4 MR. : No. It's relevant for 5 our investigation. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : All right. So, if you 8 don't mind, just initialing and dating that, 9 and then, we can explain to you why that is 10 relevant. So, you don't, though, recall? You 11 didn't find out what actually happened? 12 MR. : I don't recall what the 13 response is I gave. 14 MR. : No? And do you remember 15 looking into it at all? 16 MR. : When was that sent? 17 MR. : That was the day 18 MR. : When did he send it? 19 MR. : -- that was the day of. 20 MR. : The day of. 21 MR. : The day Epstein was 22 found. 23 MR. : I don't because it was just 24 so much going on. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119191

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 MR. : That I can't really remember 2 what, how I responded to them on that day. 3 MR. : Do you remember learning 4 anything about the accuracy or inaccuracy of 5 the counts, on the 9th and 10th? 6 MR. : What do you mean the 7 accuracy and inaccuracy? 8 MR. : Like, if the counts were 9 actually accurate or not. 10 MR. : I don't recall that. 11 MR. : You don't recall -- 12 MR. : No. I can't think of that. 13 MR. : -- finding out about 14 that? 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : Did you recall, did you 17 find out if the SHU counts and rounds were not 18 conducted by the SHU on August 9th or 10th, 19 2019? By the SHU staff. 20 MR. : If they did rounds or not? 21 MR. : Correct. Did you find 22 out if the SHU staff had conducted both 30- 23 minutes rounds, as well as the institution 24 counts on August 9th and 10th? 25 MR. : I don't know if it was after EFTA00119192

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 the fact that I was told that the Officer did 2 make their rounds. And I don't recall if it 3 was, they put it in the logbook, that they made 4 rounds, but that in all actuality, it wasn't 5 done. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : So, that might have been 8 something that came up afterwards. 9 MR. : But you are not super -. 10 You know, this, you don't really know what 11 happened or didn't happen? 12 MR. : That day. Because I mean, 13 it happened that weekend, everything was 14 moving, and then, by Monday -- 15 MR. : Right. So -- 16 MR. everything elese just 17 changed. So -- 18 MR. : -- but on the 10th or 19 11th, you didn't hear 20 MR. I didn't -- 21 MR. : -- find out? 22 MR. : -- hear anything about, 23 recall anything about that. 24 MR. : But had you heard that 25 they didn't at least conduct some of their EFTA00119193

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 rounds and counts? 2 MR. : That they didn't? 3 MR. : That they did not. 4 MR. : It was - and I don't want to 5 use the word that it was just, you know, an 6 assumption, you know, like, because one of 7 them, I had asked to come up and speak with, 8 but it was Thomas, and he wouldn't come up. 9 MR. : And this was on the 10th 10 in the morning? 11 MR. : This was on the 10th, when 12 we got him up, because I wanted to speak with 13 him because people were telling me he was 14 distraught. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : So, I wanted to make sure he 17 was all right. You know? And he just, he 18 didn't want to come up and talk. 19 MR. : What are your thoughts of 20 Thomas as an employee? 21 MR. : I've known Thomas a couple 22 years. I never had any issues with him. You 23 know, it was any, you know, like any other 24 employee, you do something, I correct you on 25 the spot, and that's it. But I have never EFTA00119194

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 7 7 1 encountered him to do anything, known him not 2 to count, do his job, you know? 3 MR. : What about Ms. Tova Noel? 4 MR. : She was new. So, she had 5 just gotten there. You know, she got the same 6 spiel from me that everybody else does. You 7 know? You are new. You can't do the things 8 that somebody at 20, that has 20 years in it. 9 They're not doing their job, you shouldn't be 10 following it. 11 MR. : And did you -- 12 MR. : So -. 13 MR. : -- actually speak with 14 her about that? 15 MR. : Oh, I do that in my 16 (Indiscernible *02:09:22) class, when they 17 first come in. 18 MR. : Okay. So, that is 19 something -- 20 MR. : And I had -. 21 MR. : -- you would have said to 22 everyone? 23 MR. : Oh, I said it clear as day. 24 And same thing I would say in my ART class. 25 Annual Refresher Training. EFTA00119195

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 MR. : Because this is -- 2 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:09:34). 3 MR. one of her excuses, 4 saying that 20 year guys, I'm following them, 5 they are not doing it, so I'm not doing it. Is 6 that something you clearly entrust -- 7 MR. : So, here's my speech 8 MR. : -- to her? 9 MR. : -- my spiel I used to tell 10 people. I said, go ahead and follow that 20 11 year guy, and you are on probation, guess what 12 happens? He might get some time in the street. 13 You're getting fired. 14 MR. : And are you confident 15 that Ms. Noel would have heard that speech from 16 you? 17 MR. : She heard the speech from 18 me. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Yeah. I'm confident. 21 That's the speech I gave everybody. Same thing 22 in the ART. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Good enough. EFTA00119196

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 MR. : So. 2 MR. : All right. So, this is 3 going to go back. This is just my little list 4 that I wrote of exactly what happened, and then 5 I'll read to you, but -- 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : I just want just for 8 our purposes, I'm going to just show you, and 9 you can refer to them. On this one, at first, 10 going to be the count on the 9th, that was 11 conducted at -- 12 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 13 MR. : -- is this 4:00 p.m. Is 14 this the 4:00 p.m. or the 5:00 p.m. here? 15 MR. : No. This? 16 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 17 MR. : 4:00 p.m. count. There's 18 just signed off -- 19 MR. : No. There's no 4:00 p.m. 20 count. 21 MR. : -- yeah, it's the 5:00. 22 MR. : 5:00. Sorry. 23 MR. : Yeah. It's -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- 12:00. 12:00. 3:00. EFTA00119197

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 And 5:00. 2 MR. : No, no. This is afternoon. 3 MR. : Yeah. So, this is 4 Friday. 5 MR. HAYES: I'd say (Indiscernible 6 *02:10:40)-- 7 MR. : All right. Friday. Is 8 that a -- 9 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:10:41) 10 MR. : -- 4:00 p.m. 11 MR. : You told him about overnight. 12 MR. : -- count? 13 MR. : Oh, it's a 4:00 p.m. count. 14 MR. : It's a 4:00 p.m. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Then 4:00 p.m. Then 18 there is the 8:00 p.m. 19 MR. : No, no. 4:00 p.m. 10:00. 20 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 21 Sorry. 22 MR. : And midnight. 23 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 24 Midnight. 25 MR. : 3:00 and 5:00. EFTA00119198

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : 3:00. And 5:00. So, these are basically the time period in question. Everywhere from 4:00 p.m. through the 5:00 a.m. count the next day, on August 9th and 10th. MR. : Okay. MR. : Here are the lieutenant logs. And these are the emails that, again, I'm going, just going over these just because, so I'm not pullingblowing things out of thin air. These are the -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. -- yeah, emails that we were able to obtain. So, this was from a . Who was the ops lieutenant at that time. MR. MR. MR. MR. : Right. : Fairly regularly. : Mm-hmm. : And during the morning watch. So, this one was sent, from her, on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. It says, these are the August 10th, 2019. Daily activity report. And then, we got the daily lieutenant's log here. EFTA00119199

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : So, where would this -? 3 This is just out of order. This should have 4 been first. So, Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 5 sends one at -. So, first, I want to ask this 6 question. So, on Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 7 sends one at 5:11 a.m. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : And Saturday, she sends 10 it at August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : And on Sunday, August 13 11th, 2019, she sends it at 6:15 a.m. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : Now, reviewing all of the 16 lieutenant logs that came out prior to that 17 time, they are all sent out pretty much between 18 5:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : -- by all the various -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. ops lieutenants. Do 23 you find it odd that she didn't send this one 24 out until 9:26 a.m., being that, I know Epstein 25 was found at 6:33 a.m., but typically, they EFTA00119200

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 were sent out much earlier than that. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : Is that -? I know she 4 sent it out after the incident, and after, you 5 know, everything happened, but do you think it 6 was weird that she sent that one out at 9:26 7 a.m. versus prior to that 6:33 a.m., when her 8 shift ends at 6:00 a.m.? 9 MR. : I mean 10 MR. : She was relieved at 5:30 a.m. 11 by Lieutenant 12 MR. : That's what I'm saying. She 13 wasn't at the -. When I got there, Lieutenant 14 was the lieutenant -- 15 MR. : Correct. 16 MR. : -- who contacted me 17 regarding -. 18 MR. : She was supposed to be 19 gone by 5:30 a.m. 20 MR. : So, yeah. I don't know. If 21 she left at 5:30 or whatever, and I don't know 22 how they (Indiscernible *02:13:07). 23 MR. : Well, that's when she was 24 relieved. She didn't leave until after this 25 was sent out at 9:26 a.m. EFTA00119201

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 MR. : I don't recall her being in 2 the institution around then. 3 MR. : She - after Epstein was 4 found - she actually went into the SHU. She 5 helped with feeding. And then, she went back, 6 and she did some things on the computer. 7 MR. : I thought -- 8 MR. : And she sent it. 9 MR. : I thought relieved 10 her, and she left. 11 MR. : At 5:30 a.m., she was 12 relieved. She stuck around because she said 13 she had work to do. After Epstein was found, 14 she came to the SHU, and assisted 15 , who also wasn't working in the SHU, but 16 was there because he was the Comtech guy. And, 17 at the time, Thomas was gone. Noel was there. 18 But at some point, Noel left. 19 MR. : And I'm looking at this, but 20 I was under the impression, when had told 21 me he had relieved her, and she left. 22 MR. : So, do you find that odd, 23 then, that she was still there until 24 MR. : Until 9:30. 25 MR. : -- at least 9:30 a.m.? EFTA00119202

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 MR. : Yeah. I didn't, I didn't -. 2 Yeah. 3 MR. : This is the first you're 4 hearing of this? 5 MR. : Yeah. Because when I was 6 told she was gone. So, unless -- 7 MR. : Because you wanted to 8 talk with her? 9 MR. : -- no. I mean, he relieved 10 her. So, I guess, technically, when you 11 relieve somebody, then, then it becomes your 12 issue. So, I was talking to Lieutenant 13 But I didn't want, you know, I, I assumed she 14 was the one that -. But I heard she had left. 15 I didn't know she had come back. 16 MR. : She allegedly did not 17 come back. She allegedly was there 18 MR. : There. 19 MR. : -- the entire time. 20 MR. : So then, that is kind of 21 odd, because usually, your log is completed 22 before you leave. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : On your log, you will write 25 on there, I'm relieved by such and such. EFTA00119203

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 MR. : So, is that suspicious to 2 you at all? 3 MR. : Kind of. Yeah. But I'm 4 curious as to why you didn't log it down 5 something. 6 MR. : Now, why -? What kind of 7 employee is 8 MR. : Had some issues with her. I 9 mean, I don't want to -. You know, everything 10 that is going on is an allegation. So, I don't 11 want to go speaking on allegations that I have 12 sent up. 13 MR. : Was she a problem 14 employee, then? 15 MR. : I had some issues. Yeah. 16 MR. : Any reason why she 17 believed that she might be involved with 18 Epstein and his death? 19 MR. : Oh, no. I wouldn't put it 20 as far as that. I mean, but it is just, I 21 wouldn't. And I don't know -- 22 MR. HAYES: She's (Indiscernible 23 *02:15:29) to tell. I mean -- 24 MR. : I mean -- 25 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:15:29). EFTA00119204

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 MR. : -- that's why I went over -. 2 Can you rephrase your question, like, what are 3 we saying? 4 MR. : Yeah. I mean, I'm going 5 all the way to -. I just ramped it up to 100 6 miles an hour. I'm just saying all the way to 7 8 MR. : I can't -- 9 MR. : -- to probably, could you 10 -. Was there any reason to believe that she 11 could be potentially involved with this? 12 MR. : As far as doing harm to him? 13 MR. : Keeping his cell door 14 open. And letting another cell door open for 15 someone else. You know -- 16 MR. : I wouldn't -- 17 MR. : -- anything like that. 18 MR. : I wouldn't see that. 19 MR. : No? 20 MR. : I couldn't see that. No. 21 MR. : No reason to believe it 22 would go that far, just maybe insubordination 23 is the highest that she goes? 24 MR. : Yeah. I would, you know, I 25 EFTA00119205

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 MR. : She -- 2 MR. : -- she has the allegations 3 up. I know you guys were seeing the 4 allegations. So, I, yeah, but I wouldn't go 5 that far. But I can't -. 6 MR. HAYES: Well, is she in a position to 7 do something like that? 8 MR. : What? 9 MR. HAYES: To leave the door open, or 10 something that's egregious? 11 MR. : She does lieutenant 12 rounds. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : She's the ops lieutenant. 15 MR. HAYES: She is in position to do that. 16 MR. : But remember, when you are 17 going down range and the range door keys, you 18 can't have both. Somebody would have to let 19 her down there. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : And those keys. Those keys 22 go down. 23 MR. : Do you know if she was 24 particularly friendly with either Noel or 25 Thomas? EFTA00119206

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 MR. : I don't know what their 2 relationship was. She was the shift 3 lieutenant. So, I don't know what 4 relationships. Who she's had (Indiscernible 5 *02:16:48). 6 MR. : For the 8th, I just realized 7 we might not have the daily log for it. 8 MR. : Fortunately, I brought 9 backups of different things. So, I think I got 10 11 MR. HAYES: Jesus Christ. 12 MR. : The 9th and the 10th is in 13 there. 14 MR. HAYES: I keep looking at this pile. 15 I think those eff'ing sons a bitches are 16 working hard. 17 MR. : I don't think the 9th is 18 in there. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Just the 10th. 21 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 22 MR. : No, no. It's the second set. 23 MR. : No, that's the 10th. 24 MR. : No, the dates are -- 25 MR. : Can I say -? EFTA00119207

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 MR. -- the following dates. 2 Sorry. 3 MR. : Can I see the time 4 (Indiscernible *02:17:14)? 5 MR. : Just, I just want to confirm 6 with that. 7 MR. : Of course. Yeah, yeah. 8 Okay. That's the August 9th. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. Great. 11 MR. : So, those two. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : That's the previous date we 14 don't have. 15 MR. : All right. 16 (Indiscernible *02:17:25) right now. All 17 right. So, what did you want to see? 18 MR. : I wanted to see that 9:26 19 one. 20 MR. : Yeah. So, that is -- 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. and this is what we 23 were going to show you, is the count numbers, 24 that's what we are getting at next. 25 MR. : Wait. Which is the one -? EFTA00119208

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 MR. : So, this is from Friday, 2 August 9th. 3 MR. : Okay. This is at what time? 4 MR. : This just, that says morning 5 watch. 6 MR. : Ish. 7 MR. : Yeah, but why is it saying 8 the 10th? 9 MR. : So, it was, the email was 10 sent out on the 10th morning. Right? But when 11 12 MR. : So, she was -. Her -- 13 MR. : -- she included everything - 14 15 MR. : -- shift -- 16 MR. : -- everything from the 17 previous day. 18 MR. : Yeah, but this is August 19 9th. 20 MR. : They sent it out the day 21 after. 22 MR. : Epstein is back. 23 MR. : So, see this one? This 24 one is sent out on Sunday, August 11th, for the 25 day prior, starting -- EFTA00119209

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 MR. : Right. So -- 2 MR. : -- Saturday, August 10th. 3 MR. no, I get that. So, she 4 started. Her shift was morning watch on 5 Friday. Okay? So, she goes to 12:00. So, she 6 is relieved by Lieutenant II 7 MR. : So, no, no. 8 MR. : No, this is -. This should 9 be Thursday into Friday. 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. No. I 12 MR. : So then, it goes -- 13 MR. : -- yeah. See. I thought 14 this was -- 15 MR. : -- into day watch. 16 MR. : -- the day of. Then you go 17 to day watch, and it goes to evening watch. 18 Now, what is the -? Which log is it for the 19 day of? 20 MR. : So, this is the day of. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : And this is, we are going 24 to get into. So, this one is the day before, 25 August 9th, when Reyes left, and we can look to EFTA00119210

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 see on here, as well, where it says -. So, if 2 we go to this 8:38 on the lieutenant's log, it 3 says that Reyes is pre-removed. Right here. 4 "Reyes to pre-remove at 8:38 a.m." 5 MR. : Okay. So -- 6 MR. : That is August 9th, 2019. 7 So, we're going to go all the way down to 8 The one thing, I guess -- 9 MR. : So, the count -- 10 MR. : -- we want to look at is, 11 here, we got this individual, lam Fernandez 12 (Phonetic Sp. *02:19:31). Who is on dry cell 13 with staff in R&D watch. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : From the SHU. So, if you 16 look at the count Where the heck is the -? 17 MR. : Okay. So, I just want to go 18 back to clarify something with -- 19 MR. : Yup. 20 MR. with Lieutenant 21 So, we are saying this is at 9:23, she did it. 22 Right? 23 MR. : 9:26. 24 MR. : So - 9:26 -- 25 MR. : She did it. EFTA00119211

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 MR. 2 MR. 3 morning. 4 MR. 5 out. : -- this was on -- The 10th morning. Saturday : -- this is when she sent it 6 MR. : Correct. Like, three 7 hours after Epstein was found. 8 MR. : And this is 9 MR. : (Indiscernible 10 *02:20:03). 11 MR. : -- Friday's log. 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR. : That that's 14 MR. : But they - the same 15 thing, though - they all seem to sending it out 16 the day before. 17 MR. : The day before. And then, 18 she sent the day before logs out on Saturday. 19 Yeah. 20 MR. : She combined it. If you look 21 through it, it has everything combined. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : It goes from morning watch, 24 day watch, evening watch, into 25 MR. : Right. But I'm just -. EFTA00119212

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 That should have been done the day before. 2 Okay. 3 MR. : I don't think you're 4 right, bud. I think she's just doing the 9th. 5 The next day does the 10th. 6 MR. : Yeah. That's right. 7 MR. : Yeah. Okay. 8 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:20:41) 9 combined. 10 MR. : Yeah. That's what -- 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : -- that's why I'm a little 13 confused about. 14 MR. : Yeah. No. She's not -- 15 MR. : Because when she came -- 16 MR. : -- she does the day 17 before. 18 MR. : -- she came on shift at 10:00 19 p.m. 20 MR. : She started her shift at 21 10:00 -- 22 MR. : 10:00 p.m. 23 MR. : -- p.m. 24 MR. : Of the 9th -- 25 MR. : And worked until EFTA00119213

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 MR. : -- evening. 2 MR. : -- 6:00 a.m., but got 3 relieved at 5:30. So -- 4 MR. : That's right. 5 MR. -- yeah. 6 MR. : The lieutenants were working 7 from 10:00. 10:00 to 6:00. 8 MR. : Correct. Because the, we 9 were told because of traffic issues -- 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- or something else. 12 MR. : And short -. Yeah. 13 MR. : So, what we want to, and 14 I want to kind of reference here is, Iam 15 Fernandez on dry cell, with SHU staff and R&D. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : And the end of this shows 18 72. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : So, on August 9th, 2019, 21 at 11:59 a.m. - or August 10th, 2019, at 12:00 22 a.m. - there is supposed to be 72 inmates, 23 according to this log that sent 24 out. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119214

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 MR. : There is supposed to only 2 be 72 inmates there. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : Now, look at the shift 5 for August 10th, when this person started their 6 shift, there was 73. 7 MR. : So -- 8 MR. : And the institutional 9 logs -- 10 MR. right. 11 MR. show at 12:00 a.m., 12 there were - or so, that looks like - so, there 13 is -. Let's go. So, for ZA, there shows 75 at 14 the 4:00 p.m. count. The 10:00 p.m. count, 15 there shows 73. And then, at the midnight 16 count, there it says 72. However, the count 17 slips, if you recall 18 MR. : 73. 19 MR. : -- where are the count 20 slips? So, it is -- 21 MR. : The counts. 22 MR. : -- it says the SHU 23 submitted a count slip for 73 at 12:00 a.m. 24 Here you go. So, that is not the count. Oh, 25 yeah. There. So, see? 12:00 a.m., they EFTA00119215

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 submit it. Thomas/Noel submitted 73. 2 Although, the institutional count says 72. 3 Now, not , but the next one 4 shows that, the next ops lieutenant shows that 5 73 is what is written in this. She went back 6 and changed 72, the day before, with the 9:30, 7 because it was determined -- 8 MR. : That he was on the outcount, 9 and on -- 10 MR. : -- oh, yeah. 11 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 12 *02:22:57). 13 MR. : And so, Fernandez was 14 never removed -. So, look at -. It shows it 15 on this. "One SHU correction. Fernandez dry 16 cell." So, at 12:35 a.m., and we do have 17 Fernandez right here. 18 MR. : Looking back. 19 MR. : Okay. So, this just 20 says, this is what happened with him. He was 21 found to have contraband, that he was providing 22 to a visitor in the SHU, at approximately, 23 like, I think 1:00 p.m. on August 9th. He was 24 moved from the SHU to dry cell. And he was 25 never -- EFTA00119216

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 MR. : Keyed in. 2 MR. : -- keyed out. 3 MR. : What - yeah - what they 4 should -- 5 MR. : Keyed out of the SHU. 6 So, the institutional counts were reflecting -- 7 MR. : 73. 8 MR. : -- 73. That is what the 9 SHU continued reporting. 73. Because that is 10 what - that's what, according to the system, 11 was supposed to be in there. But if they had 12 physically -- 13 MR. : Counted. 14 MR. : -- counted -- 15 MR. : They would have known -- 16 MR. : -- it would have 17 MR. : -- he wasn't there. 18 MR. : -- been 72. Correct? 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : So, with this 21 information, and I guess as the warden, would 22 that suggest to you that they were not actually 23 conducting their counts? 24 MR. : They weren't counting. And 25 then, there is no count slip here for the EFTA00119217

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 inmate that was on dry cell in R&D. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : There should have been a 4 count slip for him over there. So, what should 5 have happened was, the inmate - him - he should 6 have been outcounted in R&D. And then, the 7 R&D, you would have seen one. So, there was a 8 count slip. Whoever is sitting and watching 9 him should have did a count slip on him. And 10 then, whoever his back up was should have done 11 a count slip. 12 MR. : And this is, from my 13 review of everything -- 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : -- this is what I found. 16 I don't want to put my words into 17 mouth, but let me know if this makes sense to 18 you. It says, "Count discrepancy on the August 19 9th, 2019. Per the daily activity report dated 20 August 10th, 2019, and the attachment 21 lieutenant log from August 9th, 2019." So, 22 that's what we are looking at here. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : "The day began with 77 25 inmates assigned to ZA." Or the SHU. "The EFTA00119218