201 1 it on a daily basis. So if you say I don't 2 know and you actually done it as part of your 3 daily duties, it kind of contradicts each 4 other. 5 MS. NOEL: I understand. 6 MR. : And I just had a question. 7 You mentioned the door. Was at any point in 8 time - on the 9th, 10th or - was there a 9 practice to ever leave the doors propped open 10 in the SHU? 11 MS. NOEL: No. 12 MR. : Alright. I think my last 13 question, I just want to revisit it just to 14 make sure that we're of the same understanding. 15 So again when you're pre-populating all of 16 these rounds. Correct? 17 MS. NOEL: Correct. 18 MR. : But you're saying you 19 believe you did more than 50% of the rounds 20 that were listed. 21 MS. NOEL: I can't give you a percentage - 22 - 23 MR. : Sure. 24 MS. NOEL: -- because I don't know how to 25 put a percentage to a round. But I can only EFTA00118426

202 1 tell you that I conducted rounds as I went to 2 go do something. But I can't give you a 3 number. 4 MR. : And I want to make sure 5 we understand too, if you're going down range 6 to give some inmate like toilet paper or 7 something, that you're also at that time where 8 you're saying you did a round, not just talking 9 about that tier, but all six tiers. 10 MS. NOEL: Yes. 11 MR. : Alright. So you're going 12 down to give somebody a toilet paper. At that 13 point -- 14 MS. NOEL: Because I'm giving toilet paper 15 to everybody. 16 MR. : Alright. So you're not 17 just addressing one inmate. 18 MS. NOEL: No. 19 MR. : You're saying when you're 20 giving everybody toilet paper. 21 MS. NOEL: Yes. 22 MR. : So on August 9th -. 23 MS. NOEL: When I'm giving food, I give 24 everybody food. When I'm collecting trays, I'm 25 collecting all the trays. I'm giving toilet EFTA00118427

203 1 paper. 2 MR. : So aside from eh times 3 you're now giving toilet paper and giving food 4 and collecting trays, which are a handful of 5 those times, granted. 6 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Are you doing any other 8 rounds? 9 MS. NOEL: Yes. And if somebody calls 10 MR. : On August 9th -- 11 MS. NOEL: Yes. 12 MR. : -- we're talking about. 13 MS. NOEL: On the 9th. If somebody calls 14 and asks for something, yes, I conduct a round. 15 MR. : And that's kind of what 16 I'm getting at. You're - if you're handling 17 one specific inmate, because they called and 18 asked for something. You're then also 19 addressing the other five tiers? 20 MS. NOEL: Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. NOEL: Because usually when one calls, 23 everybody else hears and everybody wants 24 something. So I just do it. 25 MR. : Alright. So on August EFTA00118428

204 1 2 9th, you didn't conduct all the documented rounds. 3 MS. NOEL: No. 4 5 MR. them? : But you did do some of 6 MS. NOEL: Yes. 7 MR. : And you don't have a -- 8 MS. NOEL: A number. 9 MR. : -- half or anything -- 10 MS. NOEL: No. 11 MR. : -- like that. Okay. 12 MR. FOY: But I think the clear point is 13 when she did it, it's not based on the times on 14 the paper. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. FOY: Right? So that doesn't match. 17 MR. : Alright. So -. 18 MR. FOY: The times she did it versus the 19 time on the paper. Because that paper is done 20 at the beginning of the shift. With the time 21 already selected. 22 MR. : Oh, are you filling out 23 the entire paper at the beginning of the shift? 24 MS. NOEL: Yes. 25 MR. : Oh! So you're not doing EFTA00118429

205 1 it every 30 minutes just prepopulating before 2 you do the round. 3 MR. FOY: Right. 4 MS. NOEL: No. 5 MR. : You're going at the very 6 beginning of the shift, filling everything out 7 the -. 8 MS. NOEL: Yes, sir. 9 MR. : So that When did you 10 fill out the August 9th round sheet? 11 MS. NOEL: Like how the numbers are like 12 the round sheets before, like the times. So I 13 just fill it out because that's what I've seen 14 being done. Like it's filled out before or 15 sometimes at the end after. So I fill it out 16 all before. 17 MR. : Okay. So you 18 prepopulated that entire thing at the very 19 beginning of your shift? 20 MS. NOEL: Yes. 21 MR. : And then you just 22 conducted rounds as needed? 23 MS. NOEL: Yes. 24 MR. : Alright. And you've seen 25 people do that? EFTA00118430

206 1 MS. NOEL: Yes. 2 MR. : Who else have you seen do 3 that? 4 MS. NOEL: I mean I don't have a specific 5 name, but I've seen it done. 6 MR. : Did anyone ever tell you 7 to do that? 8 MS. NOEL: This is actually I think the 9 first time I've ever done the round sheets 10 because I've never actually done the round 11 sheets in the SHU. But those two days were the 12 days that I've done the round sheets in the 13 SHU. 14 MR. : So if this was your first 15 time doing a round sheet, did someone instruct 16 you on how to do it? 17 MS. NOEL: No because I just followed what 18 I seen. But I've worked with people before 19 that was filling it out and that's how it's 20 been done. 21 MR. : And did you have 22 discussions with them when you were -? 23 MS. NOEL: No. I never had a discussion 24 about it. 25 MR. : So you just observed EFTA00118431

207 1 people doing this? 2 MS. NOEL: Yes. 3 MR. : But no one ever told you 4 to do that? 5 MS. NOEL: No. 6 MR. : And did you know that it 7 was wrong to do that? 8 MS. NOEL: No. 9 MR. : You didn't know that it 10 was wrong to prepopulate the rounds you 11 conducted when you weren't conducting those 12 rounds? 13 MS. NOEL: No. I mean if I'm putting the 14 time on there saying that I conducted the round 15 at this time, and I didn't conduct the round at 16 this time, that's wrong. But I didn't think it 17 was wrong to fill it out all before or after 18 because that's how they do it. 19 MR. : So that's a contradicting 20 statement. You know that it's not right to 21 conduct a round at the time that you conducted 22 it, but you didn't know that it was wrong to 23 (Indiscernible *02:28:16). 24 MR. FOY: She knows that now. But this is 25 the way it was done. EFTA00118432

208 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. FOY: She followed. But like when you 3 look at the policy and now that we're here and 4 we've had discussions. Okay. That's not how 5 it's supposed to work. 6 MR. : But at the time that 7 you're filling this out on August 9th at the 8 beginning of your shift saying that you 9 conducted these rounds at a time that they 10 weren't conducted yet. You had to have known 11 that that wasn't -. Maybe you saw people doing 12 the wrong thing, but you couldn't have possibly 13 thought that that was correct. 14 MS. NOEL: Well I -. 15 MR. : Because you're falsely 16 certifying that rounds are completed when you 17 didn't. There's times even that they're events 18 in the future. 19 MS. NOEL: I understand but I didn't know 20 that. I just followed whatever I saw that was 21 being done. 22 MR. : I absolutely understand 23 the defense that you said other people have 24 done this and you're following their guidance. 25 But you can't possibly think that it's okay to EFTA00118433

209 1 fill out certifications saying that you 2 conducted rounds in the future that haven't 3 taken place and that you actually didn't do at 4 the same time. Is that something being lost in 5 translation? Do you follow what I'm asking 6 you? Do you think it's okay to sign on the 7 round sheet that you conducted a time -? 8 Conducted a round -? 9 MS. NOEL: But it's the same thing as the 10 end. Like if I do it all at the end at the 11 times that I'm putting, I'm not going to 12 remember all those times specifically. 13 MR. : Absolutely. I would also 14 argue that anytime you're falsifying a record, 15 you always know that that's wrong. 16 MS. NOEL: So. But. I mean. 17 MR. : So I do understand that 18 you're saying other people do it. And that's 19 why I want to get into who else is doing this? 20 Who trained you on that? How do you know that 21 was the way that things were done? So that's 22 where my question of who talked to you about 23 it. You said no one actually spoke to you 24 about it. But you 25 MS. NOEL: No. I just seen people do EFTA00118434

210 1 that. 2 MR. : -- observed people. So 3 who did you -- 4 MS. NOEL: Because I never had 5 MR. : -- observe do that? 6 MS. NOEL: I never had a conversation with 7 about filling out round sheets. 8 MR. : Right. So if that's 9 going to be the argument that you're doing it 10 based upon your training and experience, I need 11 to know more about this training and 12 experience. Who is it that you experienced do 13 this in the past? 14 MS. NOEL: People that I've worked with. 15 MR. : So I'd like you to think 16 about alright, I know this because I saw that 17 person do it. Who? 18 MS. NOEL: Um. 19 MR. : So you've witnessed 20 prepopulate or at the end of the shift? 21 MS. NOEL: I don't remember exactly. But 22 it's done either or the way. 23 MR. : Alright so you saw 24 and who else? 25 MS. NOEL: EFTA00118435

211 1 MR. -: , is that the SOS 2 3 MS. NOEL: No. 4 MR. : No. A different 5 What's - is a gentleman's name? 6 MS. NOEL: Yes. 7 MR. : What's that person's name 8 - first name? 9 MS. NOEL: I don't know the first name. 10 MR. -: who worked in the 11 SHU? 12 MS. NOEL: Yes. 13 MR. : You mentioned before. 14 Is it 15 MS. NOEL: Yes. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. NOEL: Um. 18 MR. : Say that again? 19 MS. NOEL: 20 MR. : It's like (Indiscernible 21 *02:32:40). 22 MR. FOY: It's a first or last name? 23 MR. • • ? Is the first name 24 25 MS. NOEL: EFTA00118436

212 1 MR. FOY: Oh. 2 MS. NOEL: Yes. 3 MR. FOY: 4 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : Anyone else aside from 6 those three people? 7 MS. NOEL: I never seen 8 MR. -: 9 MR. -: 10 MR. -: ? Alright. So 11 in the recollections of the three people that 12 you named, what did you observe them do? 13 MS. NOEL: Fill it out after or fill it 14 out before. 15 MR. : And was that on numerous 16 occasions? 17 MS. NOEL: Yes. 18 MR. : Alright. So during your 19 time in the SHU, which I think was from around 20 June 24, 2019 through August 10th, was it on 21 many of those days that you were working in the 22 SHU - this is how it was done? 23 MS. NOEL: Yes. 24 MR. : Where the rounds weren't 25 conducted and they were prepopulated or EFTA00118437

213 1 populated at the end? 2 MS. NOEL: Yes. 3 MR. : And it was never spoken 4 of? 5 MS. NOEL: No. 6 MR. : And you never asked? Hey 7 why are we you know certifying that we're 8 conducting rounds that we're not actually 9 conducting? 10 MS. NOEL: I never asked. 11 MR. : Never asked? 12 MS. NOEL: No. 13 MR. : And they never told you 14 to do that though? 15 MS. NOEL: Who? 16 MR. : No one ever told you that 17 this is the way that it's done? 18 MS. NOEL: I mean that's the way that I've 19 seen them do it. But no one ever 20 MR. : You observed it. You saw 21 that people did that. 22 MS. NOEL: Because I never asked so nobody 23 ever told me. But that's just what I saw. 24 MR. : So on August 9th, you 25 believe that's the first time you filled the EFTA00118438

214 1 sheet out. No one actually directed you or 2 instructed you that's how we do it, you just 3 saw people do it that way? 4 MS. NOEL: Right. 5 MR. : Alright. And this goes 6 back to -. I understand - your attorney did 7 say that you know now that it was wrong. 8 MS. NOEL: Yeah. 9 MR. : But at the time, you 10 thought it was okay to certify times that you 11 know you conducted rounds when they weren't 12 conducted? 13 MS. NOEL: Because that's the culture of 14 it there. I didn't consider it as being like 15 I'm falsifying a time or a document. No I 16 didn't. 17 MR. : Is this something that's 18 addressed in training and policy? Hey when you 19 conduct a round, it's documented? At the time 20 you conducted it. 21 MS. NOEL: No. 22 MR. : So it's not in the policy 23 that I provided for you? 24 MS. NOEL: I don't know if it's in the 25 policy. But in training, you're just told to EFTA00118439

215 1 conduct rounds and counts. But if -. 2 MR. : And document it at the 3 time it's been conducted. 4 MS. NOEL: And document it. 5 MR. : Right. So it's a 6 cultural - it's a culture of falsification of 7 records? 8 MS. NOEL: In MCC? Yes. Like the 9 lieutenant told me to sign I did SHU training 10 and I didn't. 11 MR. : Absolutely. There's a 12 lot of it yeah. 13 MS. NOEL: Yeah. 14 MR. : So my point being is it 15 sounds like this is a cultural problem. 16 MS. NOEL: Yes. 17 MR. : But you have to - as a 18 person who received a college degree. A person 19 that went to you know standard - conducted 20 ethics training. You have to know that -. I 21 understand other people are doing it. And 22 you're saying I'm going to do what they're 23 doing. But you have to know - you have to 24 question like hey. I didn't conduct this 25 training. I didn't conduct those rounds. So EFTA00118440

216 1 you had to know that you shouldn't have done 2 it. 3 MS. NOEL: But -. 4 MR. : You're saying that you're 5 doing it because that's how other people are 6 doing it. But you're all doing it wrong. 7 Correct? 8 MS. NOEL: But -. But in a case like 9 this, who am I telling because like -. 10 MR. : I'm not asking you to 11 tell anybody. 12 MS. NOEL: No-no-no. When I say telling, 13 I'm like okay. If it's -. Okay. I understand 14 you're saying that I know that it's wrong. But 15 I'm saying like okay, like how the lieutenant. 16 Like when you said to me, does she know that I 17 didn't do the training? And I said yes she 18 knows that but she still told me to sign that. 19 MR. : Absolutely. 20 MS. NOEL: So again, I'm not going to 21 think. Like I said, I'm not thinking of this 22 as like I'm falsifying a document. It's just 23 the culture of MCC and I just followed. I'm 24 new. I don't know. I just lean on the senior 25 officer or the people that I'm working with for EFTA00118441

217 1 - to do what they do. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. NOEL: Or to guide me so to speak. 4 MR. : Let's ask it this way. 5 Did you know that you were supposed to conduct 6 rounds every 30 minutes? 7 MS. NOEL: Yes. 8 MR. : Yes. Did you know that 9 those rounds that are supposed to be conducted 10 every 30 minutes are supposed to be documented 11 on that sheet? 12 MS. NOEL: Yes. 13 MR. : And they're supposed to 14 be documented on the time that you conducted 15 those rounds? 16 MS. NOEL: No. Because nobody documents 17 it on the time. 18 MR. : I understand that that's 19 why you did it. But do you understand that in 20 training, every 30 minutes and they're supposed 21 to be not as it's corrected, they're not 22 supposed to be on the exact dot 30 minutes. 23 You're supposed to do it within like a 30- to 24 40-minute window. Correct? So that's not a 25 regular occurrence? EFTA00118442

218 1 MS. NOEL: Yes. Irregular rounds. 2 MR. : Irregular rounds. 3 Correct. So you know that you're supposed to 4 do them every 30 to 40 minutes. 5 MS. NOEL: Yes. 6 MR. : Two rounds and hour. And 7 those rounds are supposed to be documented. 8 MS. NOEL: Yes. 9 MR. : On that sheet. 10 MS. NOEL: On the sheet. 11 MR. : So obviously that leads 12 to the training of they're supposed to be 13 documented when you conduct the rounds. 14 Correct? 15 MS. NOEL: Okay. 16 MR. : So I'm - I do understand 17 that you're doing it because other people that 18 you just mentioned did it that way as well. 19 You have to know that you were supposed to do 20 it the way I just explained. Correct? 21 MS. NOEL: I know now. 22 MR. : Well you had to know then 23 too because it's like you're supposed to do a 24 30-minute round and you've got to document when 25 you did the 30-minute round. Correct? EFTA00118443

219 1 MS. NOEL: I never seen nobody do that 2 that I've worked with. 3 MR. : So you never saw 4 or do it that way? 5 MS. NOEL: See like when -. 6 MR. : And hey -. If 7 everybody's doing it wrong, obviously that's a 8 huge problem. 9 MS. NOEL: No, but what I'm saying is like 10 I'm not next to them. Like okay, let's say if 11 they're doing the sign-in sheet, I'm not - 12 that's why. Like how you're saying 13 like if is turning a sign-in sheet, I 14 don't necessarily have to be next to him. I 15 could only tell you the people that I've seen. 16 Do I don't know like I can't speak for 17 everybody on this -. On there that I see. 18 MR. : Right. But what I'm 19 saying is you know that you need to conduct 30- 20 minute rounds. You know those rounds need to 21 be documented. You know those rounds need to 22 be documented on that sheet. 23 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Correct? 25 MS. NOEL: Correct. EFTA00118444

220 1 MR. : Therefore, you knew that 2 what you were doing was false. Correct? 3 MS. NOEL: As in putting the time and the 4 time that I conducted the round. And I didn't 5 do that at that time. See again 6 MR. : So you knew it 7 MS. NOEL: -- with the time. 8 MR. : -- that what you were 9 writing in there wasn't true and accurate as 10 you wrote it. Correct? 11 MS. NOEL: Correct. 12 MR. : And the reason you did it 13 was because the people that you observed in 14 there before did it that way. 15 MS. NOEL: Correct. 16 MR. : Is that correct? I think 17 that's how satisfies us. Any -?> So you knew 18 it was wrong, you knew what you were 19 MS. NOEL: But -. 20 MR. : -- writing was wrong, but 21 you did it because it's how they did it. 22 MS. NOEL: Right. But didn't -. I'm not 23 thinking it's wrong. Like specific to the 24 times because I've never seen it done every 30 25 minutes - every 30 minutes - every 30 minutes. EFTA00118445

221 1 MR. : Right. 2 MS. NOEL: I've never worked -. 3 MR. : So it's always been 4 falsified. Ever since you've been there, it's 5 always been falsified record is what you're 6 saying. 7 MS. NOEL: That - at the times that I've 8 worked and the people that I've worked with, 9 I've never seen it done every 30 minutes like 10 that. No. 11 MR. : Correct. 12 MS. NOEL: I've never seen it. 13 MR. : So you're trained on 14 conducting 30-minute rounds and documenting 15 when the 30-minutes -. Your experience has 16 taught you that that's not how they do it 17 there. They always falsify those records and 18 just put in whatever in order to satisfy the 19 30-minute requirement. 20 MS. NOEL: Correct. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Just one follow-up question. 23 MR. : Yep. 24 MR. : You mentioned that was the 25 first time. Those two days were the first time EFTA00118446

222 1 you filled out a round sheet in the SHU. Prior 2 to the SHU, before you got to the SHU, did you 3 fill out those round sheets? 4 MS. NOEL: Prior to working in the SHU? 5 MR. : in the SHU. Did you fill out 6 -. 7 MS. NOEL: On other units, we don't have 8 um round sheets like this. 9 MR. : DO you have to conduct rounds 10 in the other units? 11 MS. NOEL: Yes. But it's not documented 12 on a round sheet. 13 MR. : But this was the first time 14 you would have to? 15 MS. NOEL: In the SHU it's documented on 16 the sheet. 17 MR. : Alright. So is it the 18 first two times that you can recall 19 documenting? Are we going to find other round 20 sheets that you -? 21 MS. NOEL: The first two times that I can 22 recall -- 23 MR. : These were the first two 24 times these two times? 25 MS. NOEL: -- that I recall documenting. EFTA00118447

223 1 MR. : Alright. And did you -? 2 MR. FOY: You haven't gotten to this yet. 3 You know, I'm trying to lay back -- 4 MR. : Absolutely. 5 MR. FOY: and let you do your thing. 6 MR. : Absolutely. 7 MR. FOY: But at some point you'll learn, 8 she never worked midnight to 8:00 -- 9 MR. : Yep. 10 MR. FOY: a.m. before. Right? 11 MR. : And we never -. 12 MR. FOY: And there's a reason. 13 MR. : And we have that. Do you 14 want to give her a duty roster - her daily 15 assignment -- 16 MR. FOY: Right. 17 MR. : -- roster so that she can 18 see -- 19 MR. FOY: Right. 20 MR. : -- where she -? 21 MR. FOY: So there were events in her 22 personal life. Because she used to do that I 23 come in early to avoid being mandated. 24 MR. : Sure. 25 MR. FOY: But she couldn't do it that day EFTA00118448

224 1 and got mandated. So now she's the officer in 2 charge for the first time at midnight with a 3 senior officer, even though he's really worked 4 there regularly. And he's not there for 5 guidance so to speak. 6 MR. : Sure. 7 MS. : And you know. 8 MR. : So this one -. This was 9 your daily assignments and I see where it says 10 you're relieved without pay for a great amount 11 of time up until -. It looks like 6/26/2019 12 you were assigned SHU number three. And then 13 through - what we're looking at is 8/10, SHU 14 number one. So if you want to reference this 15 on days that you worked or 16 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- assignments you were 18 on. 19 MR. FOY: Where? 20 MR. : That's that thing. So I 21 understand what you're saying is that this is 22 your first time and she was the one in charge 23 and she wasn't having an officer in charge to 24 confer with I guess. 25 MR. FOY: Right. EFTA00118449

225 1 MR. : And that's why I'm 2 getting back to -- 3 MR. FOY: Right. 4 MR. : -- the fact that she 5 observed, you know, she knew that what she was 6 writing was false. But she did it because she 7 saw everybody else doing -- 8 MR. FOY: Right. 9 MR. : -- falsifying records. 10 MR. FOY: So part of it is, right, and 11 you're not wrong when you say, "Well that's 12 falsification of documents." And all that. 13 Right. And I can understand and can appreciate 14 how it looks that way. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. FOY: Right. And I'm not - we're not 17 disputing that. Okay. But I think there's 18 also another way. It's like well it's 19 inaccurate. Right. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. FOY: But that's not committing a 22 fraud to try to deceive the institution because 23 I just want to collect a paycheck and not do my 24 job. It's not for those reasons. It's just 25 because there's a BOP formal way and there's an EFTA00118450

226 1 2 3 4 MCC way of doing things that she's assimilating to that's not the proper way. That what should happen - a person needs to have the strength to step up and say no and be the 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. FOY: -- whistleblower or whatever. 7 No. She didn't do that. Right? 8 MR. : And I can so appreciate 9 that. 10 MR. FOY: Right. 11 MR. : And that's why I say this 12 is a cultural, institution problem 13 MR. FOY: Right. 14 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : And I agree with that. 16 MR. FOY: Right. 17 MR. : And I'm saying this was 18 wrong that she observed this. And those people 19 that were doing that were absolutely wrong. 20 MR. FOY: Right. 21 MR. : All I was trying to get 22 to is that we can all agree that that - you 23 know every 30 minutes is when the round is 24 supposed to be entered in there. 25 MR. FOY: So -. EFTA00118451

227 1 MR. : you know and she knew 2 that she was entering the wrong information 3 when she did it. 4 MR. FOY: We don't disagree. 5 MR. : Sure. 6 MR. FOY: She understood I didn't really 7 do a 6:03 round or whatever. Right? 8 MR. : Absolutely. 9 MR. FOY: But I don't know if she 10 experienced that as I'm falsifying records to 11 my job. 12 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 13 MR. FOY: Right? 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. FOY: Which she is in her mind doing 16 is well we're supposed to do rounds. But no 17 one ever really does them every 30 to 40 18 minutes. But you've got to fill out certain 19 paperwork that's required. So you fill out the 20 paperwork. Now I know from looking at the 21 discovery not every single officer did that. 22 Right? 23 MR. : Sure. 24 MR. FOY: I saw in the discovery that 25 there were people who - there would be blanks EFTA00118452

228 1 where the rounds should have been. So they 2 accurately reflected I suppose when they did. 3 But I think a lot more common is it's not that. 4 MR. : Absolutely. 5 MR. FOY: Right? So she followed the 6 strain. 7 MR. : Absolutely. 8 MR. FOY: She did not chart her own path 9 which is with - you know, why she's got to take 10 responsibility for that part. 11 MR. : And that's also why we 12 discuss this isn't all about you. It's about 13 the institution. 14 MR. FOY: Yeah. Understood. 15 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : And this seems like this 17 is an institutional problem. And that's awful 18 that you're one year on and this is what you've 19 observed -- 20 MR. FOY: Right. 21 MR. : -- this entire time. 22 MR. FOY: And I only say that because I 23 feel like - in watching your interaction, 24 you're kind of talking past each other on your 25 focus on if it's the falsification knowing it's EFTA00118453

229 1 wrong. And she's like, well yeah, but I'm just 2 kind of doing. I'm not trying to commit a 3 crime. Like it wasn't like - and that's kind 4 of been my pitch the whole time. She wasn't 5 out to commit a crime. This isn't about hiding 6 my behavior because Jeff Epstein died. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. FOY: Right? It's all there. Right? 9 Even the theory of the case is when asked what 10 happened. We messed up. Right? That's the 11 like they tell the truth. There's no deceit 12 deception 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. FOY: in frustrating the 15 investigation or the response. Now we're here, 16 we're trying to clear it up. We understand the 17 job that you have. You know address some of 18 the specifics here, but it's a much broader 19 vision. So we're trying to bring light to that 20 and she's doing the best she can to do it. I 21 think the issue is we're doing this almost two 22 years later. Right? 23 MR. : Sure. 24 MR. FOY: That's the problem. And -. 25 MR. : And the next day might be EFTA00118454

230 1 a little easier to address. 2 MR. FOY: Right. 3 MR. : So -. And we can jump 4 right into that. 5 MR. FOY: Okay. 6 MR. : So on August 10th, is 7 that also in front of you? I can't remember at 8 this point what I provided you. The round 9 sheet for August 10th. 10 MR. FOY: The round sheet. 11 MS. NOEL: Yeah. 12 MR. : Did you conduct any 13 rounds on August 10th that are 14 MS. NOEL: No I did not. 15 MR. : -- not -. And did you 16 also prepopulate that? 17 MS. NOEL: Yes. 18 MR. : Alright. So you knew 19 everything you wrote in there - again, I 20 understand that you said this is what you 21 observed. No one told you to do it this way 22 because you saw other people doing it this way. 23 But you knew that you didn't conduct any rounds 24 that you listed on that sheet. 25 MS. NOEL: Yes. EFTA00118455

231 1 MR. : Correct. And what about 2 cell counts? And I'm only trying to move past 3 because we have a lot more to get through. 4 MR. FOY: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : But if there's something 6 else we want to address on there. 7 MR. FOY: Yeah. No. We're good. 8 MR. : So the cell counts. When 9 did you conduct cell counts - sorry, inmate 10 counts during your shift in the SHU on August 11 9, 2019? 12 MS. NOEL: Oh, that's 9th? 13 MR. : August 9th. So we're 14 talking now the 4:00 p.m. and a 10:00 p.m. 15 MS. NOEL: 10:00. 16 MR. : Did you conduct those 17 counts? 18 MS. NOEL: 10:00. 19 MR. : Just 10:00? Not he 4:00 20 p.m.? 21 MS. NOEL: Not at 4:00. 22 MR. : Now you do recall 23 actually conducting the 10:00 as you're 24 supposed to do it? 25 MS. NOEL: No because my partner was on a EFTA00118456

232 1 triple. 2 MR. : Okay. So he was doing a 3 triple shift? 4 MS. NOEL: Yes. He worked three 5 consecutive shifts. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. NOEL: So I conducted the 10:00 by 8 myself. 9 MR. : And you actually went 10 around and counted every inmate? 11 MS. NOEL: Yes. 12 MR. : And we want to show the 13 count slips. 14 MR. : All of it? 15 MR. : We'll start I guess with 16 just the August 9th because we don't want to 17 give her too many stuff. Alright. So what I'm 18 going to show you here is this first page is 19 going to be like the institutional count. And 20 it's going to show you like ZA. Is ZA correct 21 for the SHU? Do you know that that is what ZA 22 stands for? 23 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. 24 MR. : Alright. So ZA is going 25 to be the number that's going to reflect for EFTA00118457

233 1 the SHU. And then I'll tell you what the total 2 number is in this count. On this page it'll 3 say 75. And it looks like this was beforehand. 4 And then at the end, you're going to see that 5 actual count slips and I'm going to ask you 6 you know who was on the count slip that you 7 filled out and who else was on there with you. 8 MS. NOEL: Okay. 9 MR. : In this instance I 10 believe it's on the second-to-last page. So 11 that you don't have to flip through all this. 12 But you can let me know if that's accurate. So 13 sorry. It looks like that one was the 4:00 14 p.m. and I believe this one is the 10:00 p.m. 15 MS. NOEL: So let me (Indiscernible 16 *02:47:46). 17 MS. : You went (Indiscernible 18 *02:47:49) sheet. 19 MR. : This the 10:00 p.m. 20 MS. : Right? 21 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 22 MS. : When you call into the 23 control, this is how they determine that your 24 count matches their learning base count. 25 Right? So ZA is 9 South, ZB is 10 South. EFTA00118458

234 1 MS. NOEL: Okay. 2 MS. : They match. This is all of 3 our counts. Right. And then what they do is - 4 this is at the handwritten outcount from 5 employee. This is what they (Indiscernible 6 *02:48:16) entry. 7 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 8 MS. : This is what's keeping this 9 entry and it reflects on here. These are the 10 outcount areas an inmate could be. Right? So 11 5 South's count was 75. Their unit count is 12 78, three people were in food service. 13 MS. NOEL: Okay. 14 MS. : So when they actually counted 15 living, breathing bodies, they only had 75. 16 MS. NOEL: Right. 17 MS. : So now just apply that to SHU. 18 This is your SHU count. You had a one inmate 19 outcounted to attorney conference. 20 MS. NOEL: Okay. 21 MS. : Right? So you come down 22 here's one. So the actual count - the total 23 count that's supposed to be there is this 24 number. This is the inmate outcounted. And 25 this is what whoever counted called in. EFTA00118459

235 1 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 2 MS. : Or should have called in. 3 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 4 MS. : That number is supposed to 5 match these are all outcounts. That number 6 is supposed to correspond with these count 7 slips for your respective housing unit. 8 MS. NOEL: Okay. 9 MS. : Right? And then I guess she's 10 asking you to review your respective -. Tell 11 me if I'm wrong. 12 MR. : Yep. 13 MS. : Review your respective count 14 slip for your unit on your shift. And then I 15 guess you wanted to confirm signature on the -? 16 MR. : Sure. I just wanted to 17 see the second. So one page back, that second- 18 to-last page, can you just find if there's a 19 count slip that you created or you signed in 20 there? 21 MS. NOEL: I see here it says It has 22 my name on it. And it says 4:00 p.m. count. I 23 don't recall at 4:00. 24 MR. : Does that look like your 25 signature or your handwriting? EFTA00118460

236 1 2 3 4 MS. NOEL: Where the Noel is - no. MR. : How about your signature? MS. NOEL: The signature looks like my signature. But where the Noel is - no. But I 5 don't recall doing. I may have done the 4:00. 6 I don't recall. But I know I did 10:00. 7 MR. : Alright. So you don't 8 recall if you did the 4:00 p.m. or not? 9 MS. NOEL: I don't recall. 10 MR. : You can only recall doing 11 the 10:00. And is that because you said you 12 did it by yourself? 13 MS. NOEL: Self. Yes. 14 MR. : Do you believe you did 15 the 4:00 p.m.? 16 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. 17 MR. : You don't recall. 18 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. 19 MR. : Alright. What is the 20 number that's listed on there? On that count? 21 MS. NOEL: 75. 22 MR. : And that is your actual 23 signature? 24 MS. NOEL: Yes. 25 MR. : Alright. And it says 75? EFTA00118461

237 1 MS. NOEL: Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. What is there on 3 the first page. what does it say that the 4 number is? And that's the count for the SHU. 5 MS. NOEL: 75. 6 MR. : 75. Okay. So your 7 signature. You're claiming you can't recall 8 4:00 p.m. 9 MS. NOEL: I don't recall. 10 MR. : Alright. And I'm sure 11 that in preparation for this did you discuss at 12 all or review or kind of - you know at two 13 years now, did I do that 4:00 p.m. count or 14 not? No? 15 MS. NOEL: No. 16 MR. : Okay. Do you remember 17 who called in that number? 18 MS. NOEL: No. 19 MR. : No. Alright. That's 20 fine. Now the 10:00 p.m. count is next to you. 21 MR. FOY: Right here. 22 MR. : Can you do the same 23 thing? Go to that last page. it could 24 potentially be on the last page or potentially 25 the second-to-last. You're going to look for EFTA00118462

238 1 anything you recall, you signed, or you 2 documented. 3 MR. FOY: Look at (Indiscernible 4 *02:51:16). 5 MS. NOEL: Here. 6 MR. : Okay. Is there somewhere 7 that you signed you signed on that? 8 MS. NOEL: Yes. On the bottom. 9 MR. : And who was - and I do 10 apologize. Let me before I even go to that. 11 Who else was on the count slip with you on the 12 4:00 p.m.? 13 MS. NOEL: 14 MR. -: ? Alright. So he 15 signed that one? Or you? 16 MS. NOEL: According to the sheet. 17 MR. : Do you know if they were 18 prepopulated? The 4:00 p.m. is that also how 19 you did the rounds? Did you also prepopulate 20 the count slips? 21 MS. NOEL: On the midnight to 8:00. But 22 not on -. 23 MR. : Not that one? 24 MS. NOEL: No, not on this one. 25 MR. : Do you know who filled it EFTA00118463

239 1 out? I know it's your signature. But you said 2 it didn't look like your handwriting. But for 3 the 4:00 p.m. now we're talking about. I'm 4 just reverting back. Do you know who actually 5 completed that count slip? 6 MS. NOEL: The count slip? Who filled it 7 out? I don't recall. 8 MR. : No? But it was you and 9 that were on it? 10 MS. NOEL: Just me and that's on 11 there. 12 MR. : And this didn't look like 13 your handwriting? 14 MS. NOEL: For the Noel - no. For the 15 signature. 16 MR. : Right. For the - and I 17 think you're looking at the 10:00 right now. 18 I'm just reverting back to the 4:00. That 19 doesn't look like your handwriting as far as 20 counting out? It just looks like your 21 signature on it? 22 MS. NOEL: Yes. 23 MR. : And you simply just don't 24 recall if you did or did not do that count? 25 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. EFTA00118464

240 1 MR. : Alright. The 10:00 p.m. 2 now we're looking at. Who was on that with 3 you? 4 MS. NOEL: Me and 5 MR. : And who - can you tell by 6 looking at the handwriting who filled that out? 7 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. But I 8 signed. And I know -. 9 MR. : Does that look like your 10 handwriting that filled it out? Can you tell? 11 MS. NOEL: No. 12 MR. : You're not able to 13 identify your handwriting? 14 MS. NOEL: No. I'm saying this doesn't 15 look like my handwriting. But that's my 16 signature. 17 MR. : Oh that's your signature. 18 But it doesn't look like you actually completed 19 the slip. I'm asking did you complete that 20 slip? 21 MS. NOEL: Yeah. I don't -. And this is 22 right here. The 73, I wrote that. But 10:00, 23 I don't write my numbers like this. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. NOEL: So. Yeah. I don't put the EFTA00118465

241 1 zero-zero in a cross. So I don't. 2 MR. : Is that the (Indiscernible 3 *02:53:11)? 4 MR. : Is there anything next to 5 73 on that? 6 MS. NOEL: I put plus one. 7 MR. : What is that for? 8 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. 9 MR. : You don't know why you 10 put 73 plus one? 11 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. 12 MR. : Is that abnormal to write 13 73 plus one? 14 MS. NOEL: I don't even know they there's 15 a plus one on there. 16 MR. : But you wrote 73 and 17 somebody else may have put the plus one? 18 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. But the 73 19 is mine. 20 MR. : Okay. And you don't know 21 what plus one would mean? 22 MS. NOEL: No. 23 MR. : Alright. And then what 24 is the first page say - that the institution 25 counts were then for ZA? EFTA00118466

242 1 2 3 MS. NOEL: 73. MR. : 73? Alright. So again, that plus one you're not sure. 4 MS. NOEL: No. 5 MR. : And now can you just 6 explain to me You said you do specifically 7 recall conducting that count? 8 MS. NOEL: 10:00 yes. 9 MR. : And you actually went 10 through and counted all of the inmates? 11 MS. NOEL: Every inmate. 12 MR. : On ever tier? 13 MS. NOEL: Yes. 14 MR. : But it was a prepopulated 15 count slip? 16 MS. NOEL: No. That was for the midnight 17 to 8:00 in the morning. 18 MR. : Alright. 19 MS. NOEL: We filled it out before. 20 MR. : So 10:00 p.m. wasn't 21 prepopulated? 22 MS. NOEL: No. 23 MR. : You did that after you 24 conducted the count? 25 MS. NOEL: Yes. EFTA00118467

243 1 MR. : Alright. But not with 2 another CO. 3 MS. NOEL: No. 4 MR. : And who was the CO that 5 was supposed to have done it with you? 6 MS. NOEL: 7 MR. : And did sign it 8 even though he didn't? 9 MS. NOEL: Yes. 10 MR. : And did you have any 11 discussions with him at that time? 12 MS. NOEL: He was tired. He was on a 13 triple. 14 MR. : Okay. And what did he 15 say to you? 16 MS. NOEL: He was tired. 17 MR. : Did he leave then? 18 MS. NOEL: No. 19 MR. : Or did he just stand 20 there and watch you do it? 21 MS. NOEL: No. He was asleep. 22 MR. : He slept? Alright. So 23 he was sleeping when that was conducted? 24 MS. NOEL: Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. Do you know how EFTA00118468

244 1 long he slept for? 2 MS. NOEL: Until it was time for him to go 3 home. 4 MR. : So like 10:00 to 12:00? 5 MS. NOEL: Approximately. 6 MR. : Okay. But you're certain 7 you conducted that count? 8 MS. NOEL: Absolutely. 9 MR. : Okay. And are you 10 confident that that number is correct? 11 MS. NOEL: What the 73? 12 MR. : Yep. 13 MS. NOEL: Yes. 14 MR. : Alright. Now let's show 15 the 12:00 a.m. Does this go there? 16 MR. : It's (Indiscernible 17 *02:55:07) 18 MR. : Alright. So before we -. 19 I guess first, can you go to the back of the 20 thing and see the counts? Find the count slip? 21 Can you find if -. Are you on there? 22 MR. : Check the last page. 23 MS. NOEL: Yes. 24 MR. : And is this the one you 25 said you prepopulated? EFTA00118469

245 1 2 3 MS. NOEL: We -. MR. : that count slip out? Yes. Okay. And did you fill 4 MS. NOEL: 5 MR. -: did? 6 MS. NOEL: Yes. 7 MR. : And you signed it? 8 MS. NOEL: Yes. 9 MR. : So is the one that 10 prepopulated it? 11 12 MS. out. NOEL: Yeah. We filled all of them 13 14 MR. three? : Oh you filled out all but 15 MS. NOEL: Yeah. He wrote and I signed. 16 All. 17 MR. : Alright. So the 12 and 18 the 3 and the 5, you did it all at once? 19 MS. NOEL: Yes. 20 MR. : Alright. And then what 21 number is written on there? 22 MS. NOEL: 73. 23 MR. : Now look at that first 24 page. What number is written on there? 25 MS. NOEL: 72. EFTA00118470

246 1 MR. : Alright. So what 2 happened with that? 3 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. 4 MR. : At what point did an 5 inmate disappear? 6 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. I called in 7 73. 8 MR. : If you called in 73, did 9 you actually count 73 people? 10 MS. NOEL: Well we didn't count at 12:00. 11 MR. : I know but at 10:00 you 12 did you said. 13 MS. NOEL: Did. Yes. 14 MR. : So at 10:00 you did. But 15 there's only 72 people there at 10:00. So did 16 you actually do the count at 10:00? Did you 17 call - did you actually count the inmates? 18 MS. NOEL: I actually counted all the 19 inmates at 10:00. Absolutely counted all. 20 MR. : And you counted at 73 of 21 them. 22 MS. NOEL: I actually counted all the 23 inmates at 10:00. 24 MR. : So where did the one 25 inmate go? EFTA00118471

247 1 MS. NOEL: I don't know. 2 MR. : Do you remember any 3 inmate being removed from the SHU after 10:00 4 p.m.? 5 MS. NOEL: No. 6 MR. : Alright. Can you show 7 her this count? Here's the 3:00 a.m. count. 8 Can you see that top sheet right there? Can 9 you find ZA? How many - what number is it on 10 that? 11 MS. NOEL: 72. 12 MR. : Alright. So 72 again on 13 that. That's the institution count. That's 14 how many people are actually in the SHU. What 15 does it say on the count slip? 16 MS. NOEL: 72. 17 MR. : 72. So what happened 18 between 10:00 and 3:00? 19 MS. NOEL: Why the numbers are -? I don't 20 know. 21 MR. : Why are the number 22 different? 23 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. 24 MS. : Let me see this again? 25 MS. NOEL: Yeah. EFTA00118472

248 1 MS. : It's in the (Indiscernible 2 *02:57:40). 3 MR. : And I don't dispute that 4 maybe you did a round at 10:00. Are you sure 5 you did a count at -? 6 MS. NOEL: No. I did a count at 10:00. 7 MR. : You counted all the 8 inmates and it added up to 73. 9 MS. NOEL: Because that's what on the -. 10 I wrote 73. 11 MR. : Right. And then if you 12 notice you wrote 73 again at 12:00. 13 MS. NOEL: That wrote it at -- 14 MR. : But there's actually 72. 15 MS. NOEL: -- 12:00 and then on the front 16 it says 72. But then the count -. But then if 17 the numbers didn't match, the count wouldn't 18 have cleared. 19 MR. : And that's what I'm going 20 to ask you. Did you have any conversations? 21 MS. NOEL: I 22 MR. : So here's the 5:00 a.m. 23 and this one also says 72 for the official 24 count. And I believe you guys wrote 72. So 25 did you discuss this with anybody that the EFTA00118473

249 1 counts were off? 2 MS. NOEL: Uh, no. I think 3 discussed. was on the phone with -. 4 Because the count wouldn't have cleared if it 5 said 72 and 73. So I think had a 6 conversation. But I didn't have a conversation 7 with anybody. 8 MR. : Did you have a 9 conversation with with regard to the 10 count being off? 11 MS. NOEL: No. 12 MR. : So if you did all the 13 prepopulating at 12:00, why does the 12:00 say 14 73 and the other two say 72 and 72? 15 MS. NOEL: Because on the -. I remember 16 at the other one, had the count slips 17 all and I couldn't find - I couldn't find the 18 count slip. And I remember I rewrote it. But 19 as far as why the count changed to 72, I don't 20 remember why. 21 MR. : Well I can tell you why. 22 Because the count was off. 23 MS. NOEL: Mm. 24 MR. : So that's what I'm 25 asking. If you actually did that 10:00 p.m. EFTA00118474

250 1 count, how did you get 73? 2 MS. NOEL: I don't know. 3 MR. : But you're sure you 4 counted 73? 5 MS. NOEL: I absolutely counted at 10:00. 6 MR. : But no inmates left after 7 10:00. 8 MS. NOEL: No. I mean, I remember I 9 counted by myself. And I (Indiscernible 10 *02:59:23) counted with somebody and we 11 compared the numbers. But I counted at 10:00. 12 MR. : Could have you been 13 mistaken during your count? 14 MS. NOEL: Probably. 15 MR. : Do you believe that you 16 were probably mistaken? 17 MS. NOEL: Probably. 18 MR. : Okay. So you're certain 19 you conducted the count. 20 MS. NOEL: Yes. 21 MR. : But you think you 22 probably just counted wrong? 23 MS. NOEL: Wrong. Maybe. Because it's 72 24 after. 25 MR. : Okay. And you went EFTA00118475

251 1 through and you -. Tell me how a count works. 2 Do you add them up? 3 MS. NOEL: Yes. Like I write it. Like K 4 Tier. And then I write it. L Tier and then I 5 write it. And then we add it up. 6 MR. : Alright. Do you want to 7 follow-up with that at all? 8 MR. : Do you recall that night that 9 during your evening shift? 10 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : So let's say from when you 12 came on from 4:00 p.m. Or did you come on at 13 2:00 p.m.? What you said. 14 MS. NOEL: 4:00. 15 MR. : 4:00 to midnight. Were there 16 any inmates removed from the SHU? 17 MS. NOEL: When I came on? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MS. NOEL: Not that I know of. 20 MR. : If there were inmates removed 21 from the SHU, would you have been aware of it? 22 MS. NOEL: I mean if I was there. Yes. 23 MR. : Do you recall -? And so you 24 don't -. Do you recall two inmates -? 25 MS. NOEL: Going to suicide watch. Yes. EFTA00118476

252 1 MR. : Do you recall about that? 2 MS. NOEL: Yes. 3 MR. : What happened with that? 4 MS. NOEL: Um.... I'm not really sure 5 because I remember told me. But I 6 remember the two inmates didn't go to suicide 7 watch but I don't recall as far as 8 (Indiscernible *03:00:58). 9 MR. : Did that happen during your 10 shift? Or did it happen before your shift? 11 MS. NOEL: During. 12 MR. : During your shift. Was that 13 after the 4:00 p.m. count? 14 MS. NOEL: I don't -. I think if I would 15 have been after 4:00 p.m. because I came in at 16 4:00. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : If you look at the numbers 19 on the 4:00 p.m. count, does it - is it 20 correct? 21 MS. NOEL: (Indiscernible *03:01:12) 22 MR. : It says 75. 23 MR. FOY: I don't think that's 4:00 p.m. 24 MS. NOEL: No. 25 MR. : It's at the bottom of page EFTA00118477

253 1 five. 2 MR. : It's just -. 3 MS. NOEL: Yes. 4 MR. : Look at the time on the 5 bottom. 6 MS. NOEL: Yeah. 7 MR. : You'll be able to figure 8 it out. 9 MS. NOEL: It says 75. 10 MR. : And then two people went 11 to suicide watch. Correct? 12 MS. NOEL: Correct. 13 MR. : Alright. But no one else 14 left the SHU. Correct? 15 MS. NOEL: No. 16 MR. : So that's what we're 17 saying. Somewhere between 4:00 p.m. and 3:00 18 a.m., either an inmate went missing or the 19 counts weren't conducted or they were off. 20 MS. NOEL: The counts was off. 21 MR. : They were off. But if 22 your job was actually to count the inmates, how 23 were they off? Usually what you're saying is 24 you're just taking the number. You're 25 prepopulating this a lot of times saying what EFTA00118478

254 1 number you believe it's supposed to be in 2 there. But if you actually conducted the 3 counts, you would actually know that there was 4 only 72. Correct? 5 MS. NOEL: I counted. 6 MR. : But you couldn't have 7 counted 73 because - 8 MS. NOEL: Well I maybe That's what 9 I'm saying. Maybe there's where the error is. 10 But I counted. 11 MS. : No. See at 4:00 count. 12 MR. : You counted but you 13 counted wrong. Is -. 14 MS. NOEL: Yes, that's what I'm saying. 15 Because I absolutely counted. Because I 16 remember was tired. He was on a 17 triple and he was falling asleep. 18 MR. : Again, and I'm not saying 19 you didn't conduct a round -- 20 MS. NOEL: And then I went. 21 MR. : I'm asking if you 22 conducted a count. 23 MS. NOEL: And I went and I counted. 24 MR. : Okay. And you're 25 positive of that? EFTA00118479

255 1 MS. NOEL: That I counted? 2 MR. : Yep. 3 MS. NOEL: Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. NOEL: But the number could have been 6 off. But I counted. 7 MR. : Okay. And that's why -. 8 MS. NOEL: Because if I was counting with 9 somebody. If I would have said 73, he would 10 have counted and he would have got 72. That's 11 why you've got to count with two people. 12 MR. : Sure. And at the 12:00 13 a.m. you said you remember speaking to 14 someone -- 15 MS. NOEL: On the phone. 16 MR. : -- but you don't know 17 who? 18 MS. NOEL: No. 19 MR. : And did you have any 20 conversations with at that time? 21 MS. NOEL: No. Except for he changed the 22 count slip and I signed. 23 MR. : He changed which count 24 slip? 25 MS. NOEL: The one that has 72 on there. EFTA00118480

256 1 MR. : So he changed the 3:00 2 a.m. and the 5:00 a.m. at that time? 3 MS. NOEL: He changed one of the count 4 slips and then I was looking of for the other 5 one and I couldn't find it. And then I did 6 I remember. I filled out one. 7 MR. : But if you -. So you're 8 saying -. I thought you said at 12:00 a.m. you 9 prepopulated all the count slips. 10 MS. NOEL: We did. 11 MR. : So - but the 12:00 a.m. 12 says 73. 13 MS. NOEL: Yes. 14 MR. : And the 3:00 and the 5:00 15 say 72. 16 MS. NOEL: Right. 17 MR. : So is the 72 that was 18 submitted and then he talked to you and then -? 19 MS. NOEL: Well I believe that because 20 then it would have been - when it got submitted 21 it would have been that the count wouldn't have 22 cleared. It would have been off. So then it 23 would have been (Indiscernible *03:03:45). It 24 would have been had to have been changed. 25 MR. : Okay. The count slip EFTA00118481

257 1 would have had to have changed is what you're 2 saying. 3 MS. NOEL: Yes. 4 MR. : Is that the time -? 5 MS. NOEL: If the count doesn't match 6 what's on here, then it would have had to have 7 been changed. 8 MR. : If a count is off, like 9 it was 10 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : What happens? 12 MS. NOEL: You redo the count slip. And 13 redo the count. 14 MR. : In this case do you 15 recall them telling you to redo the count? 16 MS. NOEL: No. 17 MR. : No. And did say 18 that hey I just spoke to the lieutenant and 19 they said to redo the count? 20 MS. NOEL: No. 21 MR. : No? 22 MS. NOEL: Hm-mm. 23 MR. : Do you remember redoing 24 that slip that says 73 whereas the institution 25 count says 72? EFTA00118482

258 1 MS. NOEL: Let me see. 2 MR. : Because I just want to 3 make sure because the video shows that no 4 counts were done at 10:00. I mean unless 5 you're just -. 6 MS. NOEL: I saw that also in the 7 indictment. But I did count at 10:00. 8 MR. : And this is again part of 9 that whole under oath thing because there was 10 only 72 people on there. So if you're saying 11 you did the count, I just want to reconcile 12 that now before we have a potential problem in 13 the future. 14 MR. : So never assisted 15 you with the 10:00 p.m. count right? 16 MS. NOEL: No. 17 MR. : So you wrote 73 plus one. 18 MS. NOEL: I wrote 73. 19 MR. : So you don't recall the plus 20 one? 21 MS. NOEL: The plus one, no I don't recall 22 that. 23 MR. : Does that look like your 24 handwriting? The plus one? 25 MR. : I don't know. EFTA00118483

259 1 MR. : You don't know. And when 2 did sign that? Would it have been 3 before he went to sleep? 4 MS. NOEL: Yes. 5 MR. : Would it have been much 6 before 10:00? 7 MS. NOEL: I don't remember the exact 8 timeframe. 9 MR. : When you wrote that count 10 slip, was the time accurate to when you 11 conducted the count? 12 MS. NOEL: Yeah because you count at 13 10:00. 14 MR. : Okay. So the time that 15 is there a time reflected on 16 MS. NOEL: But -. 17 MR. : -- the actual count slip? 18 MS. NOEL: Yes. It says 10:00. 19 MR. : Alright. So if around 20 that time, he would have just signed it and you 21 went up. 22 MS. NOEL: And I went up. 23 MR. : And you actually did the 24 count. Not a round. But you did a count. 25 MS. NOEL: I counted. EFTA00118484

260 1 MR. : Okay. And you just have 2 no explanation for why the count is off? 3 MS. NOEL: You can miscount. So I'm not 4 saying that the number couldn't have been off. 5 But as far as the count, like I counted. It 6 could have been a miscount but I counted. 7 MR. : Alright. I've got a follow- 8 up. Do you recall an inmate being moved to dry 9 cell that night? 10 MS. NOEL: Dry cell. No. 11 MR. FOY: Do you know what that is? 12 MS. NOEL: Yes. 13 MR. FOY: Okay. 14 MR. : Do you remember an inmate 15 named Fernandez? 16 MS. NOEL: No. 17 MR. : You don't recall. During 18 your shift. The inmate wasn't moved? 19 MS. NOEL: No. I don't -. 20 MR. : If an inmate was moved to 21 another cell. Let's just say dry cell. Where 22 is dry cell located? 23 MS. NOEL: I don't know. 24 MR. : Is it in - you know where R&D 25 is ? EFTA00118485

261 1 MS. NOEL: Yes. 2 MR. : Is it in R&D? 3 MS. NOEL: I don't know. 4 MR. : Have you -? Okay. If an 5 inmate was moved to R&D, would you still 6 include the inmate as part of your count? 7 MS. NOEL: If the inmate was moved, I 8 would think they'd be on the outcount. I'm not 9 sure. 10 MR. : But you wouldn't include 11 because you can't see the inmate. 12 MS. NOEL: Right. They'd be on the 13 outcount. 14 MR. : Yeah. You only count the 15 people that are physically present. 16 MR. : Present. 17 MR. : Right. And that's what 18 number goes on that count slip. 19 MS. NOEL: Count slip. 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : Do you recall any instances 22 of why anyone would write plus one? What was 23 that plus one? We've been trying to figure out 24 what the plus one is. 25 MS. NOEL: Plus one. I don't know. EFTA00118486

262 1 MR. : Yeah. I'm more concerned 2 with the 73 when there was only 72 people. Now 3 I'm not going to doubt that you counted at 4 least one tier. You counted all six tiers? 5 MS. NOEL: Yes. 6 MR. : And you added those up 7 and it equaled 73? 8 MS. NOEL: That's what I have on here. 9 MR. : Do you remember? I mean 10 I know you have that on there. But that's what 11 I'm saying. That's inaccurate. So I'm trying 12 to - 13 MS. NOEL: But I don't -. 14 MR. : I'm trying to reconcile 15 that. 16 MS. NOEL: But see I don't remember that 17 at this point. Like I mean I wrote 73. I 18 counted. I remember having a 19 conversation. the number was switched to 72 20 but I don't remember like physically like 21 adding it up like I don't remember that. And 22 again, maybe I miscounted because I counted by 23 myself. This was before. But at 12:00 -. 24 MR. : And being that 25 signed before you did the count, do you think EFTA00118487

263 1 you prepopulated that? And then counted? 2 MS. NOEL: I could have been. I don't 3 remember. 4 MR. : So you may have written 5 the slip first and then counted? 6 MS. NOEL: I don't remember at this point. 7 MR. : Okay. But at the 12:00 8 a.m. count when you guys were told this count 9 is off, you didn't then go as you should have 10 recount. 11 MS. NOEL: No. 12 MR. : And you do understand 13 that if a count's off you're supposed to do a 14 recount? Correct? 15 MS. NOEL: Recount. 16 MR. : Alright. So the 12:00 17 a.m. there's not dispute. The 12:00 a.m., the 18 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. you guys didn't do 19 it. 20 MS. NOEL: Correct. 21 MR. : And you both signed those 22 slips knowing that the counts weren't done. 23 10:00 you're claiming that you did. You don't 24 know when you filled out the slip and you don't 25 know why it's inaccurate. EFTA00118488

264 1 2 3 4 5 6 MS. NOEL: Right. MR. : And the 4:00 p.m. you're just saying you don't remember. MS. NOEL: The 4:00 yes. MS. : Can I see the 10:00? MR. : So you don't remember if 7 it was conducted or if it wasn't conducted. 8 MS. NOEL: Well the 4:00 would have been 9 conducted because we feed at that time. 10 MR. : Well that's not a count 11 12 though. Again, say - I'm talking -. I don't want to 13 MS. NOEL: Like a -. 14 15 MR. we're - : I want to make sure that 16 MR. : Right but I don't 17 18 remember physically at remember. 4:00 counting. I don't 19 MR. : Okay. So you don't 20 21 recall counting. at 4:00. You know that you did people 22 MS. NOEL: Right. 23 24 MR. call a round. : So that would be what you 25 MS. NOEL: Right EFTA00118489

265 1 MR. : What you classify your 2 understanding of a round. But the count. 3 MS. NOEL: Right. I don't recall. 4 MR. : You don't recall 5 conducting the 4:00 p.m.? 6 MS. NOEL: No. I counted 7 MR. : Do you believe that you 8 did conduct a count at 4:00 p.m.? 9 MS. NOEL: I don't know. 10 MR. : So you just can't recall. 11 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. NOEL: I counted at 3:00 and 5:00 14 upstairs. 15 MS. : That's incorrect at 10:00. 16 MR. : In 10 South? 17 MS. NOEL: Yes. 18 MR. : Alright. 19 MS. : Right? So this -. 20 MR. : So you - is it safe to 21 say that you did the feed, which you classified 22 as a round but you didn't count at 4:00 p.m.? 23 MS. NOEL: I don't know. 24 MR. : You don't know. Okay. 25 We're going to just move on. EFTA00118490

266 1 MR. FOY: Let me do this real quick. I 2 just want to try to clarify this. Let me 3 because this is something we haven't discussed 4 in advance. 5 MR. : Of course. 6 MR. FOY: Because I didn't know there was 7 an off on the number. 8 MS. NOEL: I didn't even remember that. 9 MR. FOY: Alright. So we can take this 10 out with us and speak on it real quick? 11 MR. : Ah... 12 MR. FOY: Or you want to keep it in here? 13 MR. : How about we leave and 14 let you discuss it in here? 15 MR. FOY: Okay. That's fine. 16 MR. : Does that work? 17 MR. FOY: Yeah. That's fine. 18 MR. : Just because I don't 19 really want to have documents removed. 20 MR. FOY: Yeah-yeah, okay. 21 MR. : Alright. So it's 1:38 22 p.m. This is Senior Special Agent 23 and I am pausing the recording. 24 [Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off 25 the record and went back on the record.] The EFTA00118491

267 1 recorder is back on. It is currently 1:46 p.m. 2 This is Senior Special Agent • 3 I'm just reminding you Ms. Noel you are under 4 oath and this is a voluntary interview. Thank 5 you again for your cooperation. So when we 6 took a break, is there anything that you wanted 7 to add from the last thing we were talking 8 about? The difference between the 4:00, the 9 10:00, and the 12:00, and the different 10 numbers. 11 MS. NOEL: On the plus one. I don't know 12 where the plus one came from. I absolutely 13 counted at 10:00. I don't know why is there a 14 plus one. And then when the number changed, 15 like there's something that's sometimes it's 16 called like a ghost count. I don't know. I 17 don't remember if that's what happened. So 18 whereas, control will call you and say, put it 19 as a ghost count. So the inmate is not 20 physically there but they know there the inmate 21 is. Because they didn't redo the count sheet. 22 So that's the only thing I can think of - the 23 ghost count. 24 MR. : I could think it may be a 25 ghost count for the plus one. But if you're EFTA00118492

268 1 writing the numbers and it's supposed to be -. 2 I mean when you're 3 MS. NOEL: No. I'm talking about for the 4 73 and then how it changed to 72. As far as 5 the plus one, I don't know about the plus one. 6 I'm talking about the 73. 7 MR. : But when you do a count, 8 that you list on it, isn't it the physical 9 inmates that are there? 10 MS. NOEL: Yes. 11 MR. : You can't ever say that 12 you can't list somebody that is not there on 13 that count. Correct? 14 MS. NOEL: Correct. 15 MR. : Right. So you see? 16 MS. NOEL: No but what I'm saying. Okay. 17 Like I'm like I said, I really don't remember, 18 but let's say if I counted 72. And they said 19 ghost count John. And I put 73. As far as the 20 plus one, I don't know. And I put 73 because 21 they know where the inmate is. And then after 22 for the next count they fixed the roster. 23 Because that's why it's called a ghost count 24 because they didn't move to where the person is 25 supposed to be. And then they fix it on the EFTA00118493

269 1 next one. That could have been how the count 2 went down in 72. But as far as the plus one, I 3 don't know where the plus one went. 4 MR. : Alright. So who was in 5 the SHU at 10:00 p.m. when you conduct this 6 count? 7 MS. NOEL: Me and 8 MR. : Just the two of you? 9 MS. NOEL: Yes. 10 MR. : He's sleeping. 11 MS. NOEL: Yes. 12 MR. : What conversations did 13 you have with anybody about that count? 14 MS. NOEL: That's what I'm saying. I 15 don't recall. That's the only thing that could 16 have happened. But I don't recall. 17 MR. : But if they told you to 18 do that at 10:00 p.m. as you just noticed, at 19 12:00 a.m., the count - that's when they catch 20 that the counts are wrong. 21 MS. NOEL: Right. 22 MR. : So if I told you that -. 23 MS. NOEL: Well not at that time at the 12 24 time. I'm saying like when it changed from - 25 I'm not looking at the time but when it changed EFTA00118494

270 1 from the 72 to the 72 at that time. 2 MR. : Right. So no inmate was 3 removed from the SHU after 10:00 p.m.? 4 MS. NOEL: No. 5 MR. : There's only 72 inmates 6 in the SHU at 10:00 p.m. 7 MS. NOEL: I don't - as far as the numbers 8 go, I don't remember accurately the numbers, 9 but no inmate moved. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MS. NOEL: There was no movement. 12 MR. : And that's just where 13 we're just trying to get to this. If you're 14 swearing up and down, you know under oath, I 15 conducted this count. 16 MS. NOEL: I did. 17 MR. : But there's only 72 18 people there. At 12:00 a.m., that's when the 19 lieutenant catches. Hey guys, there's only 72 20 people in there. You've got to redo this count 21 and give me a new count slip. When did - when 22 did this happen? 23 MR. FOY: Let me just say something on 24 here it says that at 10:00. I'm looking at the 25 10:00 that it was 73 on the outside. EFTA00118495

271 1 MR. : Correct. 2 MR. FOY: Right, so the control and her 3 slip matches. 4 MR. : Right. So she calls in 5 the number 6 MR. FOY: Right. 7 MR. : -- and right. So she's 8 calling in because somewhere before 10:00 p.m., 9 an inmate wasn't removed from the list. 10 MR. FOY: Right. 11 MR. : Although they were not 12 present in the SHU. So if they're doing a 13 count -- 14 MR. FOY: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : -- that's where it's 16 supposed to say that's the actual number that's 17 in here. 18 MR. FOY: Right. 19 MR. : And at that point, 20 control would say we have 73. Where is the 21 problem here? But she called in 73 -. 22 MR. FOY: Right. 23 MR. : Or yeah instead of the 24 72. 25 MR. FOY: Right. EFTA00118496

272 1 MR. : So you're right. The 2 master list is off but so is the count slip. 3 The count slip is provided first. 4 MS. : But they're not off, right? 5 Technically, at 10:00, the master list is that 6 front page. 7 MR. : The master list is wrong. 8 MS. : It said 73. 9 MR. : Correct. 10 MS. : So there may be something you 11 know that we don't. 12 MR. : Oh we've already talked 13 to hundreds of people about this. 14 MS. : I'm sure. 15 MR. : So that's where - I mean 16 not hundreds - by you know what I mean. 17 MS. : A few people. 18 MR. : A lot of people. So this 19 is where we're just asking the only person that 20 was there that was actually. You know the 21 other guy was sleeping. There's only one 22 person physically present in there. 23 MS. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : And that was you Ms. 25 Noel. EFTA00118497

273 1 MS. NOEL: Yes. 2 MR. : So that's why we're 3 asking you. Everyone else clear as day says 4 well it just shows - it's just proof that the 5 count wasn't conducted. That's what everybody 6 else says all the way up to the highest of 7 levels. So that's why if you're saying that 8 the count was conducted, you're just saying 9 MS. NOEL: I did do the count. 10 MR. : -- you just counted 11 wrong. 12 MS. NOEL: I did do the count. 13 MS. : So I get -. And I'm asking 14 this because I think if we're confused, Ms. 15 Noel is - might be confused. Correct me if I'm 16 wrong. 17 MS. NOEL: Right. Like because I didn't 18 even -. 19 MS. : If she - if the employee - 20 let's use a simple number for the sake of it. 21 Right. I'm an employee. I count 4 living 22 breathing bodies on Unit A. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MS. : And then I call you who is 25 located eight floors downstairs and I say I EFTA00118498

274 1 have four bodies on Unit A and you say to me, 2 Ms. , that's a good count. Right? 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MS. : That's what these documents 5 imply took place. Because the front page is 6 prepared by a completely different person in a 7 completely different area. 8 MR. : Exactly. So what these 9 documents actually imply is that the 10 institution count showed that there were 73 11 people in there. 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : There were only 72 people 14 in there. So what they imply is that the count 15 wasn't conducted. Because there were only 72 16 people in there and it was just based on the 17 number that should have been based upon the 18 system. The system showed there were 73, so 19 they wrote 73 on the slip. That's what the 20 documentation implies. 21 MS. : I get that (Indiscernible 22 *03:16:28) wrong. 23 MR. : However, there were only 24 72 people in there. 25 MS. : Now I understand what you're EFTA00118499

275 1 saying. 2 MR. : So that's why I'm asking. 3 It's hard for me to get past this question if 4 you're saying yes I counted 73 -- 5 MS. NOEL: I did. 6 MR. : -- bodies when there were 7 only 72 bodies in there. 8 MS. NOEL: No. I absolutely counted. As 9 far as the number, like I said, in remembering 10 how much bodies I counted, but I counted. 11 MR. : So you counted, you just 12 didn't -. 13 MS. NOEL: The count may have been off. 14 MR. : You didn't maybe have the 15 numbers up? 16 MS. NOEL: Right or it was 17 MR. : And that's why I wanted 18 to make sure the difference between a round and 19 a count. 20 MS. NOEL: No. I counted. 21 MR. : You counted but -? 22 MS. NOEL: And the reason why that always 23 stood out to me because I remember he was on a 24 triple and he said he was tired. And I 25 counted. EFTA00118500

276 1 MR. : So just give me a little 2 more information on what you're just saying. 3 You know you counted but what? 4 MS. NOEL: No. I'm saying I know I 5 absolutely counted. And that always stood out 6 to me because I remember he was on a triple and 7 he was tired. 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MS. NOEL: And I counted by myself which 10 I'm not supposed to. So I remember that. But 11 as far as the numbers go, I don't remember this 12 because I didn't even remember something about 13 a plus one until I seen the count slip. Like I 14 don't recall nothing about a plus one. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MS. NOEL: So as far as the numbers, I'm 17 not sure. But as far as counting, I absolutely 18 counted. 19 MR. : Are you sure you counted 20 73? 21 MS. NOEL: That's what I'm saying. As far 22 as the numbers go, I don't remember. But I 23 counted. 24 MR. : Let's see. You counted 25 what? So I mean what did you do with the EFTA00118501

277 1 numbers that you counted? 2 MS. NOEL: What I'm saying is, the count 3 could have been off. But I'm just letting you 4 know that I actually did count. As far as the 5 actual number, that's where the discrepancy -- 6 MR. : So -- 7 MS. NOEL: comes in. 8 MR. : So did you count and then 9 look at the - what the system showed was in 10 there. And you just decided -- 11 MS. NOEL: I didn't -. 12 MR. : -- to put what the system 13 showed? 14 MS. NOEL: Because I don't know how to 15 look for that. 16 MR. : You don't even know how 17 to find -? 18 MS. NOEL: Look for the count in the 19 system. No. 20 MR. : So where would you -? If 21 you're prepopulating things, where do you get 22 the numbers from in order to -? 23 MS. NOEL: When you come in, the person 24 that you're relieving will be like I got 72 or 25 I got 75. EFTA00118502

278 1 MR. : So someone who you 2 relieved would have told you that there were 3 73? 4 MS. NOEL: Correct. 5 MR. : Alright. And do you know 6 who would have told you that there were 73? 7 MS. NOEL: I don't know. 8 MR. : Would it have been 9 before he fell asleep? 10 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. 11 MR. : Alright. So again, just 12 help me try to understand if there's only 72 13 people in there, how you wrote 73 if you 14 counted? 15 MS. NOEL: Again, that's what I'm saying. 16 I could have miscounted. I don't remember what 17 happened. As far as the actual number of the 18 count. I can only just tell you that I 19 counted. As far as the numbers go, I don't 20 remember. 21 MR. : Right. So you counted 22 each tier. 23 MS. NOEL: Yes. 24 MR. : And then you added each 25 of those counts up? EFTA00118503

279 1 MS. NOEL: Yes. I counted each tier. I 2 don't know if I added them up. But usually 3 when I'm counting, that's what I do. I write 4 it down, K Tier with the number, L Tier I put 5 the number, and I add them up. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. NOEL: But if I miscounted, remember I 8 counted by myself. So if I miscounted, I would 9 have called control and I would have said 73. 10 They would have been like no, your count is 11 wrong. 12 MR. : Well that's the -. 13 MS. NOEL: But on -. 14 MR. : It's weird that your 15 miscount just happened to show what the system 16 said that was what the system thought was in 17 there. 18 MS. NOEL: But at -. 19 MR. : That's where I'm having 20 difficulty because it's like the system says 21 73. So if you miscounted 73, and the system 22 said 73, but there's only 72, how are you 23 saying you actually counted? 24 MS. NOEL: Bu there at 10:00, it's 73 on 25 here and it's 73 on here. EFTA00118504

280 1 MR. : Correct. Because that's 2 the - the institution count it off. 3 MS. NOEL: Right but at -. 4 MR. : So -. 5 MS. NOEL: So - but I'm confused because 6 at 10 it says it's 73. 7 MR. FOY: But they're saying this is 8 wrong. This paper is wrong. 9 MR. : And it was caught at 10 midnight. 11 MS. NOEL: Okay. But this is Well 12 then I don't know. I don't know. 13 MR. : Do we want to continue on 14 this or keep going? 15 MR. : Oh keep going. 16 MR. : Alright. So prior to 17 6:33 a.m. on August 10, 2019, when was the last 18 time that you conducted a round within the SHU? 19 Now we're talking about a round. 20 MS. NOEL: I don't remember the time, but 21 I didn't conduct no round between 12:00 and the 22 12:00 to 8:00 shift. 23 MR. : So this - what we're 24 talking about - what you're calling a count 25 that you're saying would then that the last EFTA00118505

281 1 time be that you conducted either a round or a 2 count? 3 MS. NOEL: After 10:00. 4 MR. : Would that -? When we're 5 discussing at the 10:00 p.m.? Would have you 6 done something between then and 12:00? 7 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. This is the 8 last that I remember with the count at 10:00. 9 MR. : So the last one that you 10 can recall is the one that we're discussing -- 11 MS. NOEL: Yes. 12 MR. : -- on the 10:00 p.m. 13 count? 14 MS. NOEL: Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. So probably around 16 10:00 p.m. would have been the last. 17 MS. NOEL: You can say that. 18 MR. : What time does that count 19 slip show? 20 MS. NOEL: The count slips shows 10:00. On 21 here is says 10:30 p.m. 22 MR. : 10:30 p.m.? 23 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Do you - no-no-no. 25 That's the institutional count. EFTA00118506

282 1 MS. NOEL: On the count slip, it says 2 10:00. It's always going to say that. Like 3 even if -. Like on the count slip, let's say 4 if I counted at 10:15, it's still going to say 5 10:00 because -- 6 MR. : Alright. 7 MS. NOEL: -- it's the 10:00 count. 8 MR. : So -. 9 MS. NOEL: So that's what I'm saying. A 10 round. 11 MR. : So this one -. I just 12 want you to try to kind of -. Because this 13 would have been if you actually conducted the 14 count and you actually looked at the people, 15 this would have been the last time you saw 16 Epstein. Correct? 17 MS. NOEL: Correct. 18 MR. : Alright. So I just want 19 you to consider that with all that's 20 surrounding this, you've got to kind of in your 21 mind think, "When is the las time that I saw 22 him?" 23 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Is this the last time you 25 can remember seeing him? EFTA00118507

283 1 MS. NOEL: Yes. 2 MR. : Alright. So do you 3 remember -? 4 MS. NOEL: Until the incident. 5 MR. : Right. 6 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : So would that - do you 8 remember if that would have been at 10:00? A 9 little after? A little bit before? And again, 10 this is the last time you saw this big guy 11 whose caused your life to flip upside down. 12 MS. NOEL: But I can't -. That's what I'm 13 saying. 14 MR. : But would he -. 15 MR. : You just got to ballpark 16 it. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. NOEL: It's somewhere around after 19 10:00. 20 MR. : So you just always write 21 the time of the count. 22 MS. NOEL: Yeah. With the counts, even if 23 Because remember, on the unit, you're 24 waiting to count. So let's say you fill out 25 the 10:00 slip. But let's say we didn't EFTA00118508

284 1 actually go down range until 10:30. You don't 2 actually put 10:30. It's a 10:00 count. So 3 it's always going to say 10:00. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. NOEL: So that's what I'm saying. 6 Just ballpark it. 7 MR. : So approximately 10:00 8 p.m. 9 MS. NOEL: Yes. Or after 10:00. 10 MR. : Okay. So on the round 11 sheet. Does that also say 10:00 p.m.? I mean 12 I know you said you prepopulated that one. But 13 what does that one say? And that's for August 14 9th. You already said August 10th, none of the 15 rounds were conducted. On August 9th, I guess 16 around the 10:00, you know that nothing after 17 10:00 was actually conducted on the round 18 sheet? 19 MS. NOEL: It has after 10:00 on here. 20 MR. : Okay. So those ones. 21 Those ones from then on you know those weren't 22 conducted. 23 MS. NOEL: Right. Remember I didn't fill 24 this out. 25 MR. : You prepopulated it. EFTA00118509

285 1 Right. So I'm just - want to make sure we know 2 that -- 3 MS. NOEL: Yeah. 4 MR. : -- you said some of them 5 you conducted. 6 MS. NOEL: Right. 7 MR. : You don't remember which 8 ones you did. 9 MS. NOEL: Right. 10 MR. : But I just know that 11 those ones weren't conducted. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : After 10:00 p.m. 14 MS. NOEL: Right. 15 MR. : Okay. Alright. So that 16 last You're saying the last round and the 17 count were one and the same. And was that an 18 authorized practice? Is a round and a count if 19 you're doing a 10:00 p.m. count, does that also 20 what you can document on the round sheet as 21 something you did at 10:00 p.m.? 22 MS. NOEL: Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. So they can 24 overlap for that. 25 MS. NOEL: Yes. EFTA00118510

286 1 MR. : Were any supervisors 2 present for any cell counts or rounds in the 3 SHU on either August 9th or August 10, 2019? 4 MS. NOEL: No. 5 MR. : No? Should any 6 supervisors have been present for any cell 7 counts or rounds in the SHU on August 9th or 8 August 10, 2019? 9 MS. NOEL: No. 10 MR. : Is there a requirement -? 11 Or was there at that time that a supervisor - 12 every supervisor at least one per shift should 13 have conducted a round or a count with you guys 14 in the SHU? Not of you staff members, but of 15 the inmates? 16 MS. NOEL: You're saying if the supervisor 17 should have did -? 18 MR. : Should a supervisor, you 19 know like a lieutenant -- 20 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- observed or 22 participated in a round or a count of the 23 inmates during their shift? At least once? Do 24 you know of that? 25 MS. NOEL: I think so. EFTA00118511

287 1 MR. : You think that they're 2 supposed to do that? 3 MS. NOEL: Yes. 4 MR. : And during your time in 5 the SHU, did a lieutenant ever participate or 6 observe a count or round while you were in the 7 SHU? 8 MS. NOEL: did. 9 MR. -: did. 10 MS. NOEL: did because she went 11 down on the tiers. But on the midnight to 12 8:00, Lieutenant didn't walk the 13 tiers. 14 MR. : Okay. So when did 15 on August 9th, she actually walked the tiers 16 and checked -- 17 MS. NOEL: Yes she did. 18 MR. : -- out the inmates? 19 MS. NOEL: She did. 20 MR. : She did? Okay. And 21 around would have that been? Do you remember? 22 MS. NOEL: I don't remember the time. 23 MR. : Did she do it by herself? 24 Or did she go with you guys while you were 25 conducting a round or a count? EFTA00118512

288 1 MS. NOEL: No. She didn't do anything 2 with us. 3 MR. : So she did it by herself? 4 MS. NOEL: Correct. 5 MR. : She walked up and down 6 each of the six tiers? 7 MS. NOEL: She went down the tiers. 8 MR. : Do you know if that is a 9 requirement that a lieutenant does that in the 10 SHU? 11 MS. NOEL: I don't know. 12 MR. : Had you ever observed 13 anyone prior to August 9th - doing that? 14 MS. NOEL: Observe a lieutenant going down 15 the tier? 16 MR. : Either do it themselves - 17 the lieutenant do the round themselves - or 18 watch the staff members do it? 19 MS. NOEL: Oh no, they never -. No they 20 never watch us do -. 21 MR. : Never watched? Never 22 observed? 23 MS. NOEL: No. 24 MR. : Did they ever conduct it 25 with you? EFTA00118513

289 1 MS. NOEL: No. 2 MR. : But they would 3 occasionally do it themselves? 4 MS. NOEL: They'll make -. The 5 lieutenants will make a round. Yes. 6 MR. : So not just pop into the 7 SHU, but they'll actually go up and down the -? 8 MS. NOEL: Yes. Some. Not all. 9 MR. : Some? Alright. And 10 that's what I'm asking. Do you know if it's a 11 requirement that -? 12 MS. NOEL: That I don't know if it's 13 required. 14 MR. : So you don't know what 15 policy or -- 16 MS. NOEL: I don't know what the 17 lieutenant -. 18 MR. : -- rule or what they're 19 supposed to or not do? 20 MS. NOEL: What's supposed to do. 21 MR. : Alright. But that didn't 22 happen. Did that happen more often than not? 23 Or -? When they were actually doing a round 24 with the inmates. Lieutenants. 25 MS. NOEL: If it happened that they walked EFTA00118514

290 1 the tiers? 2 MR. : Correct. 3 MS. NOEL: Some of them do. Not all. 4 MR. : Which ones would do it? 5 MS. NOEL: was the SHU 6 lieutenant so he walks the tiers all the time. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. NOEL: And then the other lieutenants 9 that's on, when they come, they sign the round 10 sheets. 11 MR. : But do they actually do 12 rounds themselves? Or they just sign your 13 sheet and check in with you? 14 MS. NOEL: They don't do it all the time. 15 They sign the sheet. And they check in with 16 me. And they'll say like is there anything 17 going on. But they don't physically actually 18 walk it all the time. 19 MR. : Okay. So it's 20 occasionally. 21 MS. NOEL: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Alright. But you don't - 23 . Okay. 24 MS. NOEL: I don't know if it's a 25 requirement. EFTA00118515

291 1 MR. : Alright. You're saying 2 you don't recall the 4:00 p.m. You may have. 3 You might not have. 4 MS. NOEL: I don't recall. 5 MR. : You just don't recall. 6 Alright. So 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., 5:00 a.m. 7 We don't need to go into these specific things. 8 You said none of them were conducted. They 9 were false. You both signed them and submitted 10 them. Correct? 11 MS. NOEL: Correct. For the 12 MR. : And you knew that you - 13 and you knew that you had to do the count. You 14 just 15 MS. NOEL: Yes. 16 MR. : What conversations did 17 you have with about doing that? 18 MS. NOEL: We didn't have a conversation. 19 He was exhausted and he was sleeping. 20 MR. 21 MS. NOEL: Yes. 22 MR. : So at 12:00 a.m. until 23 Because you said you filled them all out at 24 about 12:00? 25 MS. NOEL: Yes. EFTA00118516

292 1 MR. : And you didn't have a 2 conversation about filling them out at 12:00? 3 MS. NOEL: No because we do that all the 4 time. Like when he came in, we filled them 5 out. And then, I think when the phone rang, he 6 had the conversation. And then there was 7 another time when I was looking of for the 8 counts slip, he had it and I couldn't find it. 9 So I had to like wake him up to resign the 10 count slip. 11 MR. : Now give me - can you 12 walk me through that? So he gets a call. You 13 already filled out the count slips. Was one 14 submitted? You put it through the door and 15 internal came and got it? 16 MS. NOEL: Yes. 17 MR. : And that's when they 18 called him back? 19 MS. NOEL: And he spoke to whoever. And 20 then he wrote on the count slip. And we filled 21 it out. And I put it back through the door. 22 MR. : For the corrected one 23 that said 73? Then you made it 72? 24 MS. NOEL: I don't remember. But I know I 25 filled out a new one. EFTA00118517

293 1 MR. : At 12:00 a.m.? 2 MS. NOEL: Yes. 3 MR. : And did you have to at 4 that time fill out a new 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 5 a.m.? 6 MS. NOEL: Yeah. Because I couldn't find 7 the count slips that he had and I filled it 8 out. And I woke him up and he filled it. I 9 remember that. 10 MR. : So this was later? So he 11 gets a call. He falls asleep. And then later 12 you have to wake him up to resign? 13 MS. NOEL: No. He gets the call, he does 14 it. And then he falls asleep. When he gets 15 the call to change whatever, we change it. And 16 then he falls asleep. 17 MR. : So you only changed the 18 12:00 a.m. He falls asleep and then you have 19 to wake him up to change the 3:00 a.m. and the 20 5:00 a.m.? 21 MS. NOEL: Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. And you just never 23 talked about what you were doing? 24 MS. NOEL: No we didn't talk about it. As 25 far as like -. EFTA00118518

294 1 MR. : Because that's just 2 common practice there? 3 MS. NOEL: What? To fill out the count 4 slips before? 5 MR. : To prepopulated count 6 slips. You're supposed to count inmates to 7 make sure that they're there. And write the 8 number of what you counted. 9 MS. NOEL: Yes. 10 MR. : You just -. Common 11 practice is you just fill that out first. And 12 you said that you don't have access to what the 13 count number is supposed to be. It's just -- 14 MS. NOEL: I never said I don't have 15 access. I don't know how to. I don't know if 16 I have access. I don't know how to find what 17 it's supposed to be. 18 MR. : So how do you get the 19 number that you write on the slip? 20 MS. NOEL: We're not -. The number that I 21 wrote on the slip the officer gave it to me. 22 MR. : So whoever you replace, 23 they tell you what number to write? 24 MS. NOEL: They -. 25 MR. : You prepopulated that EFTA00118519

295 1 number. Is that correct? 2 MS. NOEL: Correct. And you fill it out. 3 Even on a regular housing unit, I fill it all 4 out. And then I count. Because even if it's 5 wrong, you can just rewrite it. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MS. NOEL: Because even if I come in and 8 you say it's 72. And I fill it out and I put 9 72 on all of them. I know nobody there's no 10 movement between 12 and 8. So even if I did 11 that and I put 72, and I counted and it's 12 wrong, I could just change it. So that's the 13 way I've always done it. 14 MR. : Does that sound weird to 15 you? Or just me? 16 MS. NOEL: What? 17 MR. : That that's the way it's 18 done. That you prepopulated all these numbers 19 and then you just change them later if they end 20 up being off? 21 MS. NOEL: No. Because they're usually 22 not off. 23 MR. : Um. 24 MS. NOEL: And then like if I'm working a 25 unit -. If I work that unit and I did a double EFTA00118520

296 1 there, I counted, so I know that's what it is. 2 So it doesn't sound crazy that I fill it out. 3 MR. : Well in this instance it 4 does because your count was wrong - the one you 5 said that you counted. 6 MS. NOEL: Okay. But that's that case. 7 But I'm saying like it's not -. If I worked a 8 double on 11 North and I've been there the 9 shift before and the shift after, and I filled 10 it out. I know there's no movement. So no, 11 it's not crazy that I filled it out. 12 MR. : Right. So. Had you 13 worked with prior to this instance? 14 MS. NOEL: Never. 15 MR. : You never did? 16 MS. NOEL: No. 17 MR. : And there was no 18 conversation with him about these not doing the 19 counts or prepopulating these count slips? 20 MS. NOEL: No. About prepopulating the 21 count slips, he came in, he filled it out and I 22 signed it. It wasn't a conversation about 23 that. When it was time to do the - when it was 24 time to conduct the count, I tried to wake him 25 up and he was really tired. He was like I'm EFTA00118521

297 1 tired. And I didn't - we didn't conduct the 2 count. 3 MR. : Alright. And that was at 4 - what time was that? At 12:00? 5 MS. NOEL: I don't remember what time. 6 MR. : What count would have 7 that been for that you tried to wake him up he 8 said he was tired? 9 MS. NOEL: I don't know. 10 MR. : You don't know? 11 MS. NOEL: No. 12 MR. : Would have it been the 13 12:00? Because you're already -- 14 MS. NOEL: It could have been the 12:00, 15 it could have been the 3:00, I don't know. 16 MR. : Alright. 17 MS. NOEL: He was tired. 18 MR. : So that was the one 19 conversation -- 20 MS. NOEL: Because I counted upstairs. 21 Like why would I go upstairs and count a unit 22 and leave my unit? So I woke him up. He was 23 tired. So I went upstairs and I counted with 24 25 MR. : And what time was that? EFTA00118522

298 1 MS. NOEL: 3:00 and 5:00. 2 MR. : You did the 3:00 and the 3 5:00 with 4 MS. NOEL: Yes. 5 MR. : You just didn't do the 6 1:00 in your unit? 7 MS. NOEL: Right. 8 MR. : Okay. Um. Um. I'm just 9 -. The only problem I -. I'm trying to 10 reconcile the fact that you've never worked 11 with before. You didn't have any 12 conversation with him about it. 13 MS. NOEL: No. 14 MR. : He didn't -. That's why 15 I'm saying it sounds like it must be just 16 common practice. 17 MS. NOEL: Yes. 18 MR. : You just don't conduct 19 counts. You just fill out eh forms. 20 MS. NOEL: We didn't have a conversation 21 about filling it out. No because that's common 22 in there. 23 MR. : Alright. So it's very 24 common. Is it very common from like 12:00 a.m. 25 to the 5:00 a.m. count? Those three? Not to EFTA00118523

299 1 conduct the counts and just write them? 2 MS. NOEL: No. 3 MR. : No it's not common or is 4 it common? 5 MS. NOEL: You're saying if it's not 6 common to conduct the count or if it's common 7 to (Indiscernible *03:33:51) it? 8 MR. : Is it common not to 9 conduct the counts at night or the early 10 morning hours? 11 MS. NOEL: I don't know because that's my 12 first time ever not doing it. So I don't know 13 if it's common not to conduct the count. But 14 it is common to fill it out before. 15 MR. FOY: You need to make that more 16 clear. Did you ever work midnight to 8:00 a.m. 17 to have an experience to say what happens? 18 MS. NOEL: No. Not in the SHU. 19 MR. : So you've never worked 20 midnight to 8:00 a.m. prior to this instance? 21 MS. NOEL: In the SHU? No. 22 MR. : Okay. On the other times 23 you were in the SHU, was it common to fill out 24 count slips that weren't conducted? 25 MS. NOEL: In the other times that I've EFTA00118524

300 1 worked in the SHU we fill -. 2 MR. : So you're saying you've 3 never worked in the SHU and we got the schedule 4 in front of you if you want to take a look to 5 just help refresh your memory. Um. When you 6 were in the SHU, was it common to fill out 7 count slips that weren't conducted? 8 MS. NOEL: Count slips, we fill them out 9 and the counts were done. The rounds, it was 10 common to fill them out and the rounds weren't 11 all conducted. 12 MR. : So you're saying it's 13 common to fill them out ahead of time, but it's 14 not common not to conduct the counts? 15 MS. NOEL: The counts. Correct. 16 MR. : Okay. How often were 17 they - when you worked in the SHU, how often 18 were the counts not conducted? 19 MS. NOEL: They were done. 20 MR. : They were always done 21 when you were in there before? 22 MS. NOEL: Yes. 23 MR. : And this is again one of 24 those things if we go back to video from the 25 days prior, because we had to get video from EFTA00118525