We are resuming from break and the time is 1049 on Friday, July 25th. So we've talked around this issue but we've talked about it a little bit. I want to spend the next hour or so or however long it takes. When you would we I want to talk focus kind of exclusively on Epstein and like his criminal conduct which is picked to women. Do you you said yesterday a couple times that like you now kind of recognize or think that there were things that he did that you didn't know about and that he kept from you or that you didn't see. What did you see? So you said yesterday and I'm not I'm not trying to put words in my mouth that at some point he was getting massages seven days a week. Sometimes multiple massages a day. Women have said that that were there that say they were there giving him massages said that that those included some sort of sexual conduct however you define that in the broadest sense not just a traditional massage regularly. So what do you what did you see in here at the time and then I think I think a certain one you saw and heard at the time now that you've been through what you've been through and heard people say what they've said and read what that read what do you what does that leave you in your mind with what happened. Okay so I saw Epstein with women I mean what I mean by that is he would have women around him or women on the plane or women in his house or that's how I'm explaining that. Those women were very interested what my my characterization of the interrelationships between all women that I saw with him and him was characterized by their interest in him as I as I would see it and by that I mean I never saw anybody who didn't want to be with him and be with him maybe socially or whatever I never saw anybody not under any form of duress in any type of situation where they were as as as I would characterize it looking uncomfortable or in any way distressed in the entire time I was with him traveled with him I never saw that so anytime I saw anybody with him they were happy to be with him. He would ask people all the time it however you were to massage his feet just was he'd be sitting there and he'd have somebody massage his feet or squeeze his shoulders or I saw that a lot it was in a bit quitters interaction if you will so I did see that I saw for physicality but not anything that was I don't have a character right anything that looked aggressive I suppose to define that so I never saw an aggressive move I never saw anything that was non-concentral. I will thank you okay I never saw anything that was non-concentral so if he well maybe they didn't I never saw anything that looked like they didn't like the hug or I never saw what I would characterize as anything that was on consensual. Did you see did you see him either get receiving or participating in sexual conduct during massages understanding you never saw something non-concentral did you see him engage in sexual conduct during massages. Well you could define sexual conduct as in I did see women who could have been you know blessed and normally clad from massage but especially on the island when they would be in a bikini or possibly even topless you had to see that so you would. But what about in so yeah so I agree that's one area like so women who are either not clothed or topless with just a bottom-on but beyond that did you see as part of that him touching them and again I'm not talking about consent or not consent or age or you know I'm saying like there's multiple multiple you know dozens and dozens of women who have said that they were that they engaged in sexual contact and I agree there's a broad range of what that can how that can be defined but defining it in the broadest of terms. So he being physical I didn't see that but nothing that was not consensual and in to address the issue of the large number of women who today say that he was non-conceptual or coercive with them. I'm not sure in my mind I sort of have to characterize the two distinct areas there's one where is the women who are not of age therefore anything with them is immediately unconcentual. Correct. So let's start yeah I don't want to define anyone who's under age versus anybody who's over age because I do think that there's a very significant differential between the two. Well sort of a lot. Yeah. I don't mean that. I agree with you. Yeah. Okay so I want to deal with the thing which is really why we're here. I mean not that I'm not going to deal with other but I just want to make a distinction with under age situation because there's nothing about that that's right. I never saw anything with anybody who was certainly to be categorical in my from my trial. Let's deal with that because that's something that I can say in I never saw that with them at all and I would say that as as described anyway in my trial did not happen as described. I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do those things. I'm not causing those I'm not going to say I don't feel comfortable saying that today given what I now know to be true. So I'm not here to defend him but what I can say is that I did not participate in that activity and so let's divide this into two areas maybe there's more but we'll start with two areas. One is there was testimony and there's certainly been depositions and public statements that some of these young women have conversations with you about their age. So for example conversations about the fact that they were in high school or conversations about the fact that they wanted to go to college one day which would necessarily mean not necessarily but would be more likely to mean that they were in high school to talk to you about that. And so were there were there women that you knew were under age and I say that because that's different than whether they were sexually abused in any way by Mr. Epstein just merely their age and going to give him a massage. No I never knew that and I can categorically state that had any child said to me that they were 14, 15, 16 and maybe not 17 because 17 in England and I mean with someone who said that was 17 I don't I've read so much that that did happen I mean I'm just but I had never I would never have permitted such a thing I would never I'd even know what I would have done. So some of the I think even someone who testified at trial that certainly a publicly talked about was as young as 14 when when she was introduced to Mr. Epstein in your mind today you don't you kind of reject that that happened that you saw that meaning you don't recall any obviously under 18 woman coming to give him a massage. Well I believe you're talking about Jane and I'm very happy to address that I actually don't think that the testimony is correct I don't believe. I just wanted to tell you how I don't want to get into it. No no no no no no no no absolutely no I don't want to go there I'm not going to do that but I believe that what took place with a lot of these people is that there was a slide right so there was a zone and I mean he did meet her and I did meet her and I knew that she was a young I knew that she was not an adult because but I don't believe he met her till she was 16 so I'm not I'm not doing a he said she said I'm not doing that because nobody that's not what we're here for but he didn't meet her till she was 16 and the entire testimony of the 14 15 16 year old is therefore not accurate. Did I meet her when she was 16 with her mother? I absolutely did and did I know that she was young? I absolutely did but everything that took place that was alleged a trial at the 14 15 and 16 is is not accurate and there's there's testimony or there's and again I'm using testimony in the broadest sense some of this is just public statements or something that's come out in civil lawsuits about you and Mr. Epstein giving like an 18 you're turning 18 birthday card to somebody which again if true would by that finition mean you knew that she was under 18 do you recall doing that? I do not I mean no memory of that at all and I believe that would be the person that called herself Kate has now announced herself in her own podcast for who she really is. Her name is so I did not meet a until actually she was either 20 or 21 so would be very hard for me to have given her an 18 birthday card and the testimony that you look so that slid back. Do you accept that at some point and we talked for the yesterday about how Mr. Epstein changed but at some point Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women. I accept. And I think you said yes but say it again since we're talking about it is that something that you in your mind one of the areas where he changed from when you first met him until later. So I just also want to be clear I never understood that change to encompass children. I did see from when I met him he was involved or involved with friends with whatever you want to characterize it with women who were in their 20s and then the slide to you know 18 younger looking women but I never considered that this would encompass criminal behavior. It never. And so when you read I guess two different times right one was during the Florida investigation when there were eventually public statements from some of these now women who testified about what they did with Mr. Epstein when they were under 18. At that point did you realize or did you think to yourself this happened or this could have happened I missed it or were you at that point still in the mindset that they were either not telling the truth or were not remembering what happened the way the act realized. That's a very fair question. So I think that my view of this at that time can just call it as contemporaneously as it did because I don't think that stuff came out in public right. I mean I may have read things but I don't my first real memory of that is at the trial but my viewpoint if you will was set from the minute that you lied in her civil deposition and I could never recover from that because what do you what's liar what are you referring to her entire character is it characterisation of I don't remember how she came and whether I did I see but I'm talking about the first time she came to Epstein's house which I knew to be false so from that first lie of that description I could never recover. I understand. Okay so and that tainted sorry just so that we clearly tainted then the testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post that because I had my own personal experience which I knew to be false. Yeah and the reason why I think and I said to Mr. Marcus that this morning that we were going to talk about this because when I think about you and the public's perception of Mr. Epstein the public is left with the view that nobody in the world knows what really happened except for you okay and now you've explained the last day and a half how some of that's just a misperception because you weren't you didn't have a key to his house you weren't around as much as as maybe everybody claims you were okay but there still is this perception out there that oh my gosh if if if we could talk to Miss Maxwell we would know how horrible Mr. Epstein was or how Miss perceived he was whatever the truth is about Mr. Epstein and the challenge in my mind just to be I told you I would tell you when I had issues and the challenge in my mind is that so many women have have said that Mr. Epstein sexually assaulted them whether juveniles or or women or adults that I don't find it you know at some that's persuasive right that that happened okay so and so if that's persuasive then and I think it's without beyond contestation that he preferred younger women and and and it's also beyond I think at this point there were certainly circumstances underage women well I don't want to say that you agree with me on that I certainly believe that there were younger age women that were abused by him okay and so and then so the layer that I want you to that I really want to have a frank discussion about is some of these women have said oh yes you know Miss Maxwell was there you know to varying degrees she saw me there she the door was open when I was there and then and then much more egregious right that you participated and that you were part of it and so what I what I really want you to have an opportunity to say to us is where on the spectrum the truth is whether it's somewhere in the middle whether it's one extreme or another extreme understanding in my mind I'm talking about 1990 four five to whenever late 90s really 2000s and let me just interrupt and all I would say is we're not here to say anything one way or the other about Epstein I agree with you that that the evidence is overwhelming against him and and he he's his own person and has to deal with that but golen can speak about what she knows yes and from her point of view and what she did and and that's what you can talk about golen okay so I think it it's helpful to put this on the the time on the calendar because I think without that we we lost so I would say we'll go from the beginning 91 no 2 no 3 no 4 no 5 no 6 now in that time frame you have the allegations of Jane who I dispute I don't think he met her to choose this let's not talk about individuals oh no I'm just saying yeah I'm okay but there's only but there's only so in that time period I only aware of her I'm aware of what girls who said but and those I don't know of any others and if there are other people who are making allegations about I don't I'm not even I'm not actually aware of that I may have read them in there but I don't I don't know so I think in the early 90s period I don't think I'm fairly confident and I can say that at least as characterised it's just it's just false it's just it didn't happen as said now did it did it happen did he did he involve himself I knew about Jane because I saw her come to the house but I saw her with her mother I know that her allegations are that there were orgies for instance but the people that she suggests were in her which is didn't even work for Epstein until 98 or 99 did he do orgies with those people and her I don't know anybody who was there who said that they did I certainly didn't see it I can't say that that happened did she do it with someone else I don't know the stories really start the the allegations really begin with and I think that you have to shift his behaviour such as it was bar there was one in California who made an allegation there was a woman who said that she and she's I didn't know about it so I think I would call her the first person I'd be aware of him using his position to but I'm starting to rough you but I just want to I don't want I don't want to have you I don't think it's helpful for for us to have you kind of address each allegation I want you to clear your mind and just tell the truth about it so I know it's saying you're not not true I'm saying just putting aside what other people have said or what their lawyers have said or what they testified to or you know the rumors and the press push those aside you you were there and and so when when you go back to that time period 99 99 2001 during that time period what did you see when it comes to young women in massage? all right so I saw him receive massages he had regular masseuses in the 90s people who were standard and who who traveled with him and I saw that he was living in that Iranian house and now that I look back he had I didn't stay there but I would go to manage the house I would see women models or people that he would have come to the house I know that I thought that he was with Eva still at that time that's what I believed and then subsequently believed that even though she married him actually subsequently believed that the baby that she had was his that can I interrupt for one second yeah of course I can I just ask some some basic top line questions yes were you ever in a massage room with him and a masseuse? yes okay when was that? well he would come in sometimes and he would like say or like put give a massage here or he would grab by you know but not often I mean he did come in from time to time were you ever in a massage room with him with a masseuse that was naked or giving him any sexual favors? I never saw that that I remember okay did you did you ever did any of the masseuses ever discuss with you giving that they gave sexual favors to Epstein? no did you ever see an underage girl go into a massage room with Mr. Epstein? no if you had seen that what would you have done? would you have left? I can't even conceive I can't even conceive of I can't imagine what I would have done. I'm sorry no that's okay okay did you ever observe Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage? yes I mean when I'd seen him on a massage table I had seen a masturbate I don't know if there was a masseuse present but I've seen him on a massage table sorry did you ever see him masturbate with a masseuse you know with a with a naked woman either giving a massage reporting to give a massage? I I don't remember seeing that. Did you give him massages by the way? I mean there's a photo of you rubbing his feet and I think I said I never I I certainly have been in the massage room with him and I have certainly wrapped his feet when he would talk and but I was not a masseuse and I didn't perform massage on him. did you along during the over the years did you pay the masseuses? I was typically not my job but if there was nobody else normally so in Palm Beach the houseman would give the money and in New York he would do that because I wouldn't be in New York when he I mean I remember ever paying a masseuse in New York. So it wasn't your it wasn't your job on a regular basis to pay the masseuses so if there is a masseuse seven days a week it wasn't expected that seven days a week you would be the one handing them money. Oh but mostly I would not I'm not saying I never did it because that wouldn't be true but it was not my job to pay him. I mostly recall he would either pay them himself he would have money or the houseman and I think some of them would have probably received checks. And so just picking up on what Mr. Marcus was just asking you did you participate in sexual activity with him with a masseuse like at the same time? No. And so the test I don't know if there's that's money but the women who have said that that happened categorically that's not true. That is categorically not true. Did you moving past the moving into the 2000s? I just want to say that I have been I mean I remember there'd be times when he'd be getting a massage and I'd be in the room I could be on his feet and somebody else could be on his feet and we could be talking. So there's that. But that's not you're not talking about something that's sexual you're talking about literally just rubbing his feet. Yes. Okay. But I mean that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying. But they could be sometimes the women might be told us who are giving that so you could say that was sexual in the context. No I'm talking about the repeated reports of certain sex happening with you present and even participating. No. Did you in the 2000s time period so moving a little more recently when you talked about it yesterday about how your relationship with misrefin changed and was changing and you ultimately met somebody else. Did you observe any you know massages or young women giving him massages later on so after 2000, 2001 time period? I'm sure I did. And was there anything different about what you observed during that period and the 90s as far as the frequency his conduct towards them? I think the frequency increased. I think he went from one to two in that time period and but I did not see I don't know recollection of ever seeing a child entering the house and giving him a massage. I at that time he had moved me out of the main house. I had moved into an office which on a lessee the form of that under the stairs so I had an office where I would be that was not part of that part of the house. If I saw people and I'm not saying I didn't see people come to give him a massage that that wouldn't be true either but if I saw someone let's say I wouldn't I don't remember ever seeing anybody that I would characterize as a child now. Specifically someone who accused me of seeing her at the time when she came if I did see her and I don't believe I did see her will meet her at all but if she did she was as she's described herself now was very mature and looked in her 20s so could somebody have come that was more mature looking than the allegation of what she did look like with a photograph that was produced as evidence? Yes but I never recall at any time seeing what I would characterize as a child coming to give him a massage and going upstairs did I see people come I absolutely did did I just didn't see children I didn't see anybody I would think of as a child and if I had seen a child I wouldn't I'm not sure what I would have done. Did you just talking like coming out a little bit of just bigger picture do you at at the time that you were in his life? Was he a he seemed to you to be a sexual deviant or I don't know what the right way to describe it but when you say to me he was getting massages every single day right so young women were everywhere multiple massages on some days flew with the women to the island to New York Paris there's always women there always rubbin him giving him massages I think it would be an understatement to say that that's not normal. I agree. We've all kind of been part of the Epstein story over the past several years but you were there at the time okay what was it like at the time I mean was he a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing was he protective of how he looked publicly image wise like at the time what was it like? I think if he had been creepy like as you would define and you would expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be creepy I don't think the women would have been there I don't think that they thought of him as creepy and if they did I never saw them behave like he was being whipped was it a lot yes it was for sure I found it overwhelming and I couldn't understand why it was interesting because to me it's not interesting but he as he defined it he found it invigorating he liked being with younger people and now not just younger people I'm just saying because they gave him ideas and they were up to date on music yeah but that's different like the same thing I'm just telling you what he was saying yeah I mean I went out to me I just found it a drag and it difficult and annoying did you um but understand I wasn't the only person present so this time in the 2000s you're talking about other people like Sarah Cullen who was around who interfaced with him I didn't have to she she was really interfacing with Epstein at this point in time in his life she was running his she was his assistant and so I didn't have to that's a fair point but move beyond his assistance or the folks that work with him what about his friends and the people that were associated with him that it couldn't be it doesn't I don't understand how that how this is an after fact of Mr Epstein so once he's arrested in Florida it becomes part of his story and then later on he's charged in South and District and then here we are now in 2025 but he was a very successful hardworking guy and he had a lot of clients and he flew with them on vacations and went to Lyle and it doesn't I don't understand how he was able to hide this what seems to me to be some sort of sexual fixation or issue from from others I don't think he did hide it I had that's the answer and I think that the people around him think myself included yeah obviously normalized his behavior on a number of friends one I think it because it was a self because so many people saw it so of so many such a high caliber down that never seemed to think it were well if they thought it was straight probably they never said it at the time so it became sort of like it was his thing right he was always around with women now you don't I understand that it's very unattractive especially in light with everything that we know today but at the time the only way I can sort of try and describe it is through sex in the city the movie the the show on telly where this is that lifestyle is described on the TV show constantly there were always these women around and men you like it and a lot of the men that I know like women and so maybe not as overtly as Epstein but he was over not covert except obviously in the context of the criminal behavior so what we're discussing now there's a difference between the criminal behavior and the non-crime of a you don't like the lifestyle I concur I agree especially now and I I owned my side of that fence that I was there and that I saw his behavior with women and didn't challenge him or or do something but I don't I don't think back in the 90s or the 2000s we've had a cultural shift and the cultural shift I think is a very important part of the analysis here not because I'm trying to justify this because I'm not and I'm not trying to and I absolutely I'm not here to do the poor me program so please don't understand this however in the 90 in the 2000s when this behavior was going down in the initial blush of the Palm Beach investigation the women who brought the women who were under age 1760 I believe if I'm with my memory serves were actually targets of the investigation and could have been charged with prostitution and trafficking I wonder if trafficking was even a law so you're taking you're taking behavior and I did introduce him to women I did but not under age women I understand that there are allegations I have read them about myself being to schools I can categorically tell you that I have never in my life gone to a school to pick up a child well not for this I mean my step to rule but okay sorry just no I'm still okay thank you I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to be cute or anything but I did look for misuses I I did I went to spars and if I met at somebody who said she was a misuse I did not check their credentials and of course if she was attractive I did introduce it yes if I met friends who were interested he was constantly asking me for to meet new and interesting people I did I did do that at the time I viewed it as well first of all part of my job I think or part of my responsibility if you were to introduce because it wasn't just women if I met somebody who is interested like like Mary Galman or who I thought he would like I did that so it's not exclusively but he did I did do that so but then so I'm gonna layer on top of what you just said what we talked about yesterday more a little bit today already which is everywhere that was around him besides you like his friends so I accept the lifestyle I've seen the photos the fact everybody's we're all gonna go to the island for a couple days or flying on a private plane and there's beautiful women everywhere is there any I mean do you as you sit here today think that the people around him didn't also weren't also of the same place where they were also getting misuses where there was sex going on during them or or things like that and I'm obviously asking this because that's what the that's what what everybody has said and when when you just described what what it was like the the very next step from that is is everybody's going to Vegas for the weekend you know and so and so you it seems kind of far fetched to say that yes that was his lifestyle but then when he's taking groups of folks to the island or groups of folks to New Mexico or whatever that they're all um you know going to church in the morning while he's getting a massage I I I I I was there though and yeah and you're talking about very substantial people and you are extrapolating because the narrative that started in by the way not until 2009 is when it really started so that narrative that was created and then built upon and it just mushroomed into what basically this is like a Salem witch trial people want to lost their minds for this thing but I understand that but the issue is how do you satisfy a mob who can't understand the lifestyle because it's like P. Diddy and Redux on TV with kittens and drums I mean it's it's bananas and while some of it is real he did do those things I'm definitely not disputing that but this was a man it didn't even believe he had a real business I happened to believe he did did he grip I don't I don't know because I wasn't really in his business but this is this is the one man he's not some they've made him into this it's this he's not that interesting he's a disgusting guy who did terrible things to young kids you're not going to hear me say what he did to people who are over the age 18 I'm sorry I'm not going to go that's just not what I'm here I mean I okay but to suggest that Larry Summers or Clinton would suddenly go oh my gosh this is like I'm gonna get my body robed and have something the men that went ahead of massage and maybe did something sexual the men I that wasn't in the room I cannot tell you if that happened and if it did not I never paid for that just so that we can nobody ever said to me or you know we had sexual intercourse and that's if it was a three uh-uh that hardly like okay TMI not my business you want it it's just not and I didn't want to know maybe there's that but did I you'd like think these guys were coming for that I really don't if you met Epstein there is no way that this cast a character so which it's extraordinary and some of you in your cabinet who you value as your co-workers and you know would be with him if he was a creep or because they wanted sexual favors a man want sexual favors he will find that they didn't have to come to Epstein for that now did some okay I don't know I wasn't there I didn't see it um so so once the last time you think you were with Mr. Epstein when he got or was it got a massage um I want to say 2007 2007 yes and the frequency at that point so 2007 is that when it was that it's peak would you say meaning the number of of interactions he was having daily with women and masseuses I wasn't really in his life I happened to be in the Caribbean in 2010 I was with Ted and we I was I was still speaking with Epstein because I was still involved in his you know loosely with his the houses and the staff from the building and I was going back from being with Ted in the Caribbean to New York and Epstein offered me a ride and so Ted dropped me off in St Thomas and I was on the island I believe or one day and one night only and on that visit I believe why I know you would have gotten massage but I have uh there were people there but I did not a double women and I was just relieved not believing the next day oh sick work so we're going to take break the time in 11 31