We are continuing with the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The time is now 3 10 pm Thursday, July 24th. My colleagues have learned a couple questions I think I may have forgotten to ask you. One is... Sorry, I'm just going to my notes. Well, we talked to a minute ago about this birthday book that there's been press about. I understand you don't remember anything with President Trump or a lot about the book anyway. Do you remember asking President Trump to submit a letter for that? I do not. And do you remember... Would you have been the one to do that or somebody else would have done that? I did ask some people, I don't remember Mr. Trump, I don't remember who I did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself directly. So it could have happened that way, if it happened at all. I'm trying to find out if I could... Where is that? You mentioned Ahoob or Ak. Yes. What was his involvement? This would have been in the later 2000s, so I do not know how they met. But I do know that they... I don't know if friendly would be the right word. I don't know that, but I know that they saw each other. And anyway, because my father... Anything that touches Israel or the state of Israel, I'm always interested in because my father loved Israel. And so I pay attention to it. We have ties to Israel. When you said it was later though... Ties meaning friends and family, relations. Was the prime minister... Was Mr. Brock, do you know what nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein? I don't. Do you know, were you ever with them together? I think I met... I have a memory of meeting a hood, but I don't know if he was with Epstein or I don't remember. I just know that I did see him and I'm trying to remember the context around it. But if I... I'm sure it happened, but it must have been very brief because I don't have any serious memory of it. Any deep memory of it. And maybe this is obvious? And maybe it comes also because I've read it in the press that maybe something that brought it to my memory. So that's also... I mean, I think the press has been very contaminating. It's hard sometimes to separate those stories from your memory sometimes. Do you know a British gymnast by the name of Heather Mann? Yes. Did she... I'm reading something that says she was a gymnast, but please don't assume that that's correct. Okay, just based upon my words. Did she ever travel with you and or Mr. Epstein? I think she did. I think that she might have been one of Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point. What... again, I know we're talking about time periods that are vast. What time period would that have been? Like after you... since 2000? I wanted to say... I don't know. Could be the 90s. I don't know. But I mean, listen, people look pop out of the woodwork all the time. I just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend in 93 and 94. So, obviously, it was very busy. Where she's lying? Or does that? Did... Is that someone named Mark Middleton? Yes, I'm sure. He was in Mr. Clinton's administration. President Clinton's administration, I think. And how do you... do you know him? Well, I met him and that is... I met him through Mr. Epstein. And was he... from what you observed, was he a friend or... Is this a acquaintance of Mr. Epstein? I mean, I mean, he's sort of a handful of times. But I did see him with him and seemed friendly. I don't know if I would characterize him. I mean, having seen him briefly, I don't know how to characterize him. Do you know whether he... like, flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein? Did he visit the island? Do you know anything about that? Or the relationship address that relates to that? I never... I don't have any recollection of seeing Mark Middleton at the island. How about former US Senator George Mitchell? Yeah, I do remember George. What do you remember about him? I traveled with him. We went to... the most memorable place. I went to... well, I was friendly with his wife. I started with Heather. And Heather was in New York. So I hung out with her a few times. We had dinner and I was just friendly, I would say. Separately from her husband. I met Heather through her husband that we became friends. You became friends with Heather? Yes. Was Mr. Epstein friends with Mr. Mitchell? Yes. Did they travel together besides New York? Did they travel to the island or to New Mexico? I don't remember George ever at that island, but the most memorable chip I do recall with Senator was to Italy. To Italy? To Italy. Oh, okay. We went to Rome. As the four of you? So Heather and Mr. Mitchell and you and Mr. Epstein? That's my recollection. And what were you there for? Well, the most memorable aspect of that trip was who went to the Vatican? It was extraordinary. The most extraordinary thing was going to the archives and holding Henry VIII's document to the Pope asking if he is to force. Do you know the former president of Columbia, Andres Pastrana? Yes. How do you know him? Fine, and Andreas Pastrana, owner, carbon-duckling. Did he travel with Mr. Epstein that you know? I don't know if... I don't know if he ever was ever on the plane. I don't know if he ever came to the island. But I went two places with Andres Pastrana. One was to Columbia and Epstein came to that. And the other was to Cuba. And Epstein, so, and Pastrana was... I think was there. And what were the purposes of traveling to Columbia and Cuba? I'm a helicopter pilot. And... Andres is a helicopter pilot. And... We just became friends. And I flew a black cork in Columbia. And how about to Cuba? I have a friend of mine who was the cigar distributor for... One to Christmas maybe. I got one of the which cigar it was. And so my lab was here with my syndrome and... ...metapedocastra. When was that approximately? Had to be... Had to be... 2002-2003. Something like that I think. There's some more names that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type of questions. But as far as a catch-all, there's been a tremendous amount of public information about all kinds of names, including some of the folks we talked about today. And their relationship with Mr. Epstein and or you. For any of the folks that we've talked about today, did you observe them doing anything improper with Mr. Epstein, whether with masseuses or with women who are girls who are traveling or at the residence that they were at or at the parties that they were at? I didn't have a... ...anytime see that. And for any of the names we've talked about today and then tomorrow we'll talk about some more. But for today, do you recall having any conversations with anybody else where they reported to you that they had seen something that one of these individuals had done, whether someone else had works with Mr. Epstein or somebody that observed something? If anybody had ever reported anything, but first of all the answer that is no. And I also just wanted to be clear that had anybody ever reported anything illegal or disgusting like that, I would have immediately done something. And I never heard it, I never saw it, and no one ever ever complained to me or tears dothing like that. Alright, so we took a break when we were talking about Mr. Epstein and his death. Oh, bless you. Okay, thank you. That's okay, take your time. So Mr. Epstein and his death. So you were not obviously at the MCC during that time, correct? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I think I did what my news. Just take some water. No problem. You were not at the MCC during that time, correct? I was not. So you're going to tell us what you believe. But just to, I just want to make sure I understand your basis for belief is kind of what you've read and seen and your knowledge of Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew them. You knew him, right? Actually, there's a third component. Okay. The answer to that is yes. There's a third component, which is having experience now. The mismanagement and inefficiencies and total dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Presence. From BOP. From the Bureau of Presence. Okay, fair. Okay, so, you know, I want to, what I do want to be careful about is, you know, asking you to speculate because, because anybody can do that. And I don't think that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give us your kind of opinion. But do you think that the third point you say, which is kind of a failure by the BOP, there's been a lot of, there's a, oh, I G report, there's a, that's the why I'm a stagation about that. Do you, so you think he was, he was, he did not die by suicide, given all the things we just talked about. I do not believe he died by suicide. And do you believe that, do you have any speculation or view of who killed him? No, I don't. And I asked that because, if you don't believe that there's any truth to the allegations of blackmail or that he had kind of a list or that he had reasons to have people hate him, why would somebody kill him in prison? Well, in prison, where I am, they will kill you, or they will pay somebody to pay a prisoner to kill you for 25 dollars worth of commissary. It's about the going rate for a hit with a lock today. So that goes to the third reason, which is kind of the mismanagement or the shortfallings or shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisoners. Yes. Which is a little bit different than my question is, which is, do you think there's somebody on the outside of prison? So putting aside what could happen on the inside? On the outside of prison, who wanted him dead so badly that he would have, or she would have, you know, caused him to be killed on the inside? I think that's, I don't see that. I think, is it possible? Of course it's possible, but I don't know any reason why, and I don't believe in the blackmail or in any of this. I don't think Epstein had a hit on like that. If it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal situation. Yeah, so you don't have any reason, first-hand knowledge, or even speculation, it sounds like to think that he was killed to kind of silence him or to keep him from going public about people he knew about. No, because I think that is just part of the story that's been created that started back in 2008-19. Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's the point. I don't think there's value in talking, you know, there's been a lot of information about what happened in the MCC. But what is important to me is whether, you know, if it is the idea that he didn't die by suicide, that's one thing, but if to the extent that folks believe that he was murdered to keep him quiet or because he had information on rich and powerful people, that's what I do have any reason to believe that that's true. I do not have any reason to believe that. I also think it's ludicrous because if that, I also happen to think of that as what they wanted to make for the fact plenty of opportunity when he wasn't in jail. And if you were worried about Blackmail or anything from him, he would have been a very easy target. So, we talked about a lot of time all the way up through 2009-10 and then the time that after Mr. Epstein was arrested, when's the last time you spoke with him? Maybe 2016-2017, maybe 2016-2015-2016-2017 in that area, I believe. And what you were thinking about that last time was that you were talking about a lot when you stopped or was that a one-off time and it was infrequent? I really wasn't in communication. Only communications I had with him was with regards to the civil suits that the civil suit that found myself in the defamation suit that found myself in. I needed help. I needed information and I didn't have what I needed. So, that was really what drew me trying to get myself out of this situation, which I ultimately led to where I am today. And so, when all that, when that, I don't remember even if I stopped talking to him before that, I think he wasn't, I thought he was angry with me anyway. He didn't like what I did. I wasn't interested in what he had to say to me. What did you think he was angry with you about? I think he was angry that I had even said that I had referred to her being a liar. He said I should have not said anything. The civil suits that were ongoing before Mr. Epstein's death, did you, the lawyers, coordinate with his lawyers? Like, can you discover anything like that? I don't think we coordinated in this. I'm not sure. I don't want to misspeak. There was some degree of communication for sure. I just don't know the degree that that took place. So, definitely, I mean, I was definitely hoping for him to be more helpful and I was definitely coordinating is not a good word because that sounds like I was trying to make a line myself. That's not where we were going here, but I was definitely trying to get help as in documents or information that I could use to defend myself. That's 100% true. And the degree to which that took place, I don't recall. There was definitely some of that though. I don't want to misslead him. We touched on this earlier, but I just want to, I don't think we really ran it to ground maybe as much as we could. Going up through that time, you know, so in the 1617, 18, up until the time he's arrested, had your view or your understanding of what had happened changed? Meaning, did you believe that in the late 90s or early 2000s when he started behaving much differently? Did you believe what you were hearing about him at that point? My views, I don't like the people he was with anyway. So, I don't find, I don't like people who my age and older, and I don't find the society of all the companionship of younger people who are younger people. So, I don't like the company that he chose to be with. And so, I just was kind of boring and fundamentally uninteresting. Probably the nicest way I can say. Okay, so, I think what we should do is just spend a few minutes talking about tomorrow. Everything was great today. I think that it was very helpful and I appreciate you trying to be as complete as you can. And I think tomorrow, you said a few things today about materials that you brought. When we're done, we'll give you a few minutes with Mr. Marcus to, if there's things that you want to show him that you think we should see. I said, I'm not asking you to corroborate anything. If I was asking you to corroborate something, I would tell you. But if there's something you think that you don't think that the government has seen or you think it was important for me to see, let Mr. Marcus know and he can share it with me. Tomorrow, we'll certainly have some follow-on questions when we all think about tonight. And I think you will too. We can all think about stuff we've talked about. We've covered a lot of different areas. I do want to talk more about you. So, by design today, we wanted to focus on Mr. Epstein and talk about everything under the sun that we've gone through today. I do think it's important when we all evaluate what you've said today and kind of your story to understand, to also understand why you're here. So, you were indicted, you were charged, you went to trial. And I want to do that in a way that gives you an opportunity to say your piece or to say what you haven't said before. But also understanding that there was a people who took the witness stand in Swartathilis' Truth and testified about you and what you did and what they think you saw and what they heard you say. I said to Mr. Marcus, I'm not trying to create a kind of a, she said situation or he said she said situation. But I do want to hear from you about your conduct because it's important, I think, when we evaluate what you say and how you say it and your recollection of things to also talk about that. I want to talk about the circumstances leading up to your rest, there's a lot of misinformation out there that I don't know whether it's misinformation. But about the time from 2019 up until the time that you were arrested. And then, like I said, that will take us through lunch tomorrow and then we'll be done. I don't have a plan, I didn't know that I was coming here until this week. Okay, so I'm not, there isn't like a, we don't have like a schedule of what happens next or what happens. But that's not a negative thing. I'm just saying that that's, so you shouldn't take the lack of a next step as anything other than we don't have a next step yet. So may I say something? Of course, yes. I just would like to put out there that I also focused on how I think the president got swept into some of this unnecessarily, by the way. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I certainly don't subscribe to all the, all of everything that I see. But I do believe that there is animals in some areas that may have contributed to how the use of the president to harm him that I find deeply offensive. And whilst I can't obviously say definitively that dad is what it is, I would like to show you what I see so that you can evaluate it and do with that as you see fit. If it needs to be addressed, I've seen it. It struck me and I would like to give it to you. Sure what it's worth. Okay. Does that seem something that I don't like? Okay. That's fine. That's great. Okay. So why don't we stop for today? Give you a little bit of time to chat and then see you in the morning. Thanks, Alfred. This will conclude the recorded, proper interview for Thursday, July 24th. We will continue tomorrow, Friday, July 25th. The time is 3.34.