I were continuing the proper interview with Miss Maxwell the time is 11 o 7 a.m. on Thursday, July 24th. All right. So just picking up where we just stopped so you have basically a break. Well not a break that's the wrong word but your your relationship with Mr. Maxwell professional and other changes in 2003 for me. Yeah. I mean over time that I stay with Ted the more time I'm with Ted the more distance I have with him. And then when the arrest, well, what's about when he whatever whatever happened in 2005 and he became arrested in 2000s. So when he's charged and arrested in what we'll call the Florida investigations, that's what you're talking about. I am. Okay. Go ahead. So I had I was not in well, we were part of that investigation. Absolutely. Did law enforcement ever talk to you? No. As far that did you like the feds never talked to you. The FBI never talked to you. I never even received a phone call. Did you say you didn't receive a subpoena? No. Did the state law enforcement ever reach out to you? Yeah. As far as you know, did the government either stay or federal subpoena your bank records or subpoena anything from your financial life during that time during the that time? Not as far as I'm aware now if they did, I don't know it. And I have I have no idea about that to be honest, but I'm not aware of it. And I would say no, but maybe you guys do things that I know. So how did how did you learn of that case when Mr. Epstein was arrested? Or did you know that something was happening before then? The first thing I knew was he had told me he was deciding to redecorate the house in Palm Beach. Didn't surprise me. It was like a rolling situation. But that time are you doing or you like he tells you because he wants your help or had your relationship changed by this time where you were no longer kind of acting as his general manager? No, I was I was still around. I wasn't gone. I was with Ted. I was traveling. I wasn't daily. If you'd asked me where he was in any given time, I'm not sure I would have known then. I mean, I felt like I suppose the relationship moved into a long-term friend family. Like I felt he had with Eva. So he says he's going to redecorate the house on each other. He asked me specifically which decorator he thinks I should use because I had a lot of contacts with decorators. He was not very good with people. He was useless at maintaining relationships with people who worked for him. I'm not. So anyway, so I recommended... I think I recommended. I can't be 100% sure because it's a long time. I think I recommended Mark Zeph at that time. I believe. I don't know why. I don't remember. That's all lost to time. But anyway, at some point, I think his mother had died now. I can't remember the timing of all of that either. I ended up in Palm Beach and he had asked me to come and look at the swatches or whatever he was doing because they had laid it all out over the house and very things. I think he'd asked for my opinion. That's my memory of this. It may also be that Ted and I were going to Palm Beach because Ted had a golf match or something. There was a reason I was in Palm Beach. It wasn't so leaf. I don't know. Maybe that's not true either. I don't know. Sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was there. I don't know if that's part of that time. Anyway, I was there. No, it doesn't matter either. At some point in that time, I saw all the swatches at some point in 2005, I think that was. I believe I don't remember. I think I got a phone call actually. I wasn't in Palm Beach. I think I got a phone call that there was a police at his house or something. Would you've got a phone call from him or you think you just told by somebody that knew that it had happened or don't you remember? Definitely not him. I think it would have been the house. So, when that happens, whenever it was, that's kind of the first time you know that Mr. Epstein's being investigated for... I didn't even know what I didn't even understand. I didn't have a context for that. It was I didn't even know. I didn't know. I didn't. I didn't. I'm not sure you're hungry. I was like, after you find out about it, what happens with the relationship with him? I asked him. I asked him what was going on. And he said, not to worry. Nothing. Nothing. They get a don't worry about it. I'm not afraid of him. And then it went quiet. I didn't even say it and share. I wasn't part of it at all. I was awfully sad in my reading. Did he tell you, well, why don't we come back to more specifics around that time period in a few minutes? I just finished this opening part. So, that case goes on. Ultimately, it ends. What was the relationship like with him during that case when he goes... He told me, he said, listen, I'm going to jail. Anyways, I'd like you to stay on board to manage the properties, the animals, just that and just stay put and I'll continue to pay you in case there's any emergency. I don't trust anyone. I was like, okay. Well, you said continue to pay you. Had he... He'd never stopped paying me. He'd never stopped paying me. So, even when your relationship changes, you're getting does the amount increase from the 25,000 or so a year in the beginning? How much are you getting paid yearly? I think it ended at the time. Well, we have different payment structures and I'm happy to explain how that works. I think salary-wise, if I'm right, it ended at around a quarter of a million a year. How much? Quarter of a million, 250,000. And when did it end? When was that? That it stopped? 2008 or 2009. So, when did you come out of jail? Whenever you came out of jail? Okay. So, and over the years, it increased from what you said, what you thought about 25,000 or 250,000. That's between like 90, early 90s until 2009 or 10, whatever he stopped. Yes. And how were you paid? W2. W2 from what company? I do... He... He just moved me around with this company there. I think I... And I didn't understand any rhyme or reason that doesn't matter. You know, whatever. Okay, so when he's going to go to jail, he says, can you stay around and manage everything? Yeah. And do you do that? I do. Okay. And then we'll come back to that. I will not manage everything now. I mean, there are other people at this point. My specific role then was very, very diminished. I reviewed the bill structure that came from the constructions that was still made the island. And wherever else there was going to be Paris at this point because I speak French, I'm fluent in French. And also my relationship with the French decorate was critical to him. And in the French component part of that aspect was really vital. And so you'd have had to find someone who was... Well, actually, in Spanish, trialing well. You would have had to find someone who was trialing well. And that he trusted. Did you... Not steal from him. Did you... So when he gets out of jail, between that time, 2009 and 2010, and 2019, what's your relationship like with Mr. Epstein? Oh, my stomach's still. Why? I had just moved on and I just didn't want to have anything. I didn't want the drama. I didn't want to be associated with... So, do you recall... When you say, almost nonexistent, does that mean... Does that mean you're on phone calls? Some visits, some trips, or what do you mean? I don't... I don't think there were any trips. Oh, I don't... I don't think so. Where were you living during that time period? Which time period? Between 2009 and 2010 and 2019. I was back in New York. So you had no... So your phone calls with them, my occasion? Yes. Well, I certainly did whenever there was any legal drama or any serious press intention, I always called and tried to find out what was going on. Okay. And I did email him at that time for those types of details. I was like, what do I do? What do I mean? I was like... And then when he's charged in New York federally, how did you learn about that case? In the press. And had you, as far as you know, been contacted by law enforcement before his arrest? No. I was an Indian indictment. No, I know that. But even as a witness or asking you if you would give documents or materials... I had never... Up until when my lawyers said that I didn't even know... I had no knowledge of them being interested to me. Honestly, I don't... I want to say until he had died. Now I know that my lawyers were in touch with some district of New York at some point after his arrest. I'm pretty sure that had to have happened, right? But my understanding is that they had not shown any interest. I know my lawyers went to see them once, I believe. Went to see him meeting Mr. Epstein. No, Sam. So, some district in New York. Okay, the subject of New York. Sorry. And that they had been in regular in touch with them. But now you're talking about after Mr. Epstein died or are you talking about before he died? I think. If you can remember. It's easily verifiable. My memory is that they were in touch with them when he was arrested. I don't know if anything happened until after his death then after that. I don't think they saw them met with them. Some district of New York I'm talking about now until after he died. I know that they were in regular telephone contact with them and that my lawyers believe that they had been told that there was no interest in me. And were absolutely stunned when I was arrested. But maybe stunned is too big a word but surprised. I saw anyone. Okay. So, let's... Okay, so that's... That was a long description of what was a very long life and I was very helpful. So, I want to go back and talk more specifically now about particular areas. And that was a very helpful kind of foundation for us. The first thing I want to talk about, you talked about earlier on about Mr. Epstein's financial success. Do you know how he... When you first meet him at some point, you say, I got this place for you to rent, you can't afford it. And he laughs at you and says, yes I can. What did you learn about his wealth and how he was... And how he accumulated his money? I can tell you what he told me. Yes. So, I... I know that he was hired from working at a private school whose name eludes me at this point. Doldsen. Doldsen. He was working at Doldsen, who knows a math teacher. And... He met... I think it was Ace. I'm not sure. He met someone from Bear who hired him because he was very good at math. And I believe that he then worked on creating a trading of... Oh my God. Just subscribe, it's a good... Go ahead. He came up with a new type of trading system. Not a system so much, but as a vehicle or trading vehicle. I'm just escaping right now. And this is why those were... At Bear's time, yes. Okay. And... Well... And was this before you met him? Yes. So this is what he told you? Yes. And what you learned? Yes. Those are what he told me. Okay. himself. And then eventually he starts a financial firm. Because you know that? To be true or no? J. Eppstein and company, you ever heard that? I think it's... Yeah, yes. So, pay a minute. I... This I did not know. But this I had subsequently learned is that he had some problem or some issue at Bear's time. And there was some... I don't think it was a agreement. He wasn't fired. Because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace and with Jimmy, at least by the time I met him. But they were working with him and he ran. He had money at Bear's time. His money, his clients money will come to that. But he started... He told me himself that he started a business where he looked for stolen money. So if somebody... Let's see. Trying to think of something intelligent way to say it. I can't think of anything. I'll give it to you. So let's say you have El Chapo. Oh God. Anyway, he comes from... Anyway, we've got El Chapo. And El Chapo is laundering money. He's still working with the Cine Loha Cartel. And he steals money from the Cine Loha Cartel. And he moves it to wherever. So he's got stolen money from the Cine Loha. This didn't happen. I'm just... Yeah. Just coming up with something in my head. And the Cine Loha says that... Can you track down my billion dollars that... The other Cartel stole from me and then we'll go and find the billion dollars and we'll take a portion of the money that was stolen at the fee and give back the remainder. That would be on a percentage basis. No, but like what you just described, which I appreciate was just... Oh, yeah, they're pleased. But that would involve, like, so to kind of drug cartel stealing from each other. And practically speaking, he was more of a businessman. So here's how I think that started. It is that he had a girlfriend. It was always a girl. You'll hear the old stories of the girls. I guess there was a girl whose name will come back to me. Maybe not... What's we're here? I don't know. Maybe. There's a woman. There's a woman. And she was the daughter of a billionaire, for instance. And that billionaire, whatever his name was, had had some money stolen. And for some reason, there's a woman introduced Jeffrey and Jeffrey. I think that's how he got that business started. That's what I remember. And is that something he told you about or something that happened while you knew him? No, something he told me before I met him. And so when you meet him and once you're part of his life in the early of the mid-90s, what is he doing to make money that you see? Does he have clients? Does he have rich clients? Does he have famous clients? And how... And if he does have clients, what services he's providing them? He does have... Well, obviously there's the one very famous client that everybody talks about, which is Les Wex now. And that was a very important client to him. And he... I think it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine. What I imagine, what I know to be true about what he managed for us. And there's some bits that I'll be improvising. Yep. I wanted to just make you understand I was not part of Epstein's business world, except tangentially and obviously. So what I'm talking about is, what I observed or what I overheard or what I saw within the business, but I wasn't responsible for any of the clients' money or anything like that. So it's separate. Yeah, that's a good one. So with Les, for instance, it was really all encompassing. It could go from... the structure of the business. So he would... he structured or restructured the limited. I know that. And I'll come back to that because I also travelled with him and Les. And I was in business meetings with him on the plane when they were there. So I could observe and I could hear some of this. And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly business sophisticated and sophisticated enough to be able to at least have some knowledge of all exactly. Alright, so then he restructured the business. He restructured his entire personal finances. And would also... and all of the investment strategy. I don't know if it was 100%. Mr. Waxner would be saying. Sorry, yes. Or this is all Waxner I'm talking about now. So let's say you had a billion dollars to invest. So you would... you know, in people's normal investment portfolios, you'd have some tea bars, and verse, and that. But Epstein strategies would be much more sophisticated than that. So just staying with Mr. Waxner, from what you heard or saw, is Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages. So there would be a deal on the opinion of the paid. Did you understand it to be like a flat fee? Was he a business partner? Like how did you understand him to be paid? I think it was more alacard. So let's say this is a conversation actually that Epstein told me. So all that illustrated for me said, if I saved someone five billion dollars, he would take a flat percentage of that five billion. So you wouldn't have five billion back in the book. And he would think that is up because you heard him talking about that. Or you... Or be a combination of both. I certainly told me that, and I heard him talk to people like that. I couldn't... Sorry. No, no, no. Would there... Did he give... Did Mr. Waxner gift a profit in New York to Mr. Epstein? So we're talking about 71st Street. So I don't know what the business deal was. Because again, I'm not part of his business thing. But I think what happened would be that let's say, if they owed him in theoretically for his services, a hundred million, or whatever it was, he could have traded that against the property. But do you know that that happened or that's... Do you remember whether there was conversations about that? Just thinking that could be one way that it happened. I'm not sure. I'm not trying to be... I just don't remember if that's something I know, or if that's something that I remember, or if it's something that I have subscribed to. I believe that to be what happened. But I don't want to tell you that I have... Does that make sense? Did Mr. Waxner and Mr. Epstein... Are you aware of their falling out of the ultimately? I think... I wasn't there, and I don't know how it happened. I know what blesses seven press. So you only know about their... The falling out or whatever you would call it, from what you've kind of read, not from any first ten knowledge. You weren't there, you weren't part of that. Correct. Do you know somebody named Stephen Offenberg? Only from the press. Okay. And so you don't know anything about whatever business relationship they may have had, Mr. Epstein. Never spoke about him, never mentioned. I only learned about that, whatever that is. I don't even know what the truth is of that story, from the press. How about Leon Black? I did meet Leon. Do you know Leon? When do you remember... I know we're talking about Paramount's homo girl, but do you remember her approximately when you met him? I could have met Leon, not really. So I might have met him, nothing to do because Leon Black is a very good friend with other friends of mine. I would have met him when I say, socially, I might have met him. How Leon and Epstein became really good friends, I don't think I'm sure. But not through you, as far as you're from. Not through me as far as I know. I'm sure that's not through me. Do you know what kind of work Mr. Epstein was doing for Mr. Black over the years? Same as what he did for Blacks now. So we just talked about two individuals. And again, I know we're talking about a maybe a 15-year time period or even longer. How many clients like that Mr. Epstein have? Why don't I just give you the names that I remember? Why don't I just give you the names? Do you want the names? No, sure, go ahead. Elizabeth Johnson. As far as you know, the relationship between Mr. Johnson and Mr. Epstein's start? 90s. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. So during the time period? Yes, we're talking 90s. We're talking when I was there. When I was a fan. How did their relationship start? I don't know how he became that friendly boy he ended up managing her money. I mean, he... I really had a separate life. We really had separate lives. Except where they saved. But it wasn't from... It wasn't from me. No, it wasn't. And what's your understanding of what Mr. Epstein did for Mr. Johnson? The same as what he did for Blacks now. And when I... I mean, you have done so. It went down to tiny details. So I remember this, I remember this as an actual memory, that he would make the contracts for the maids, for the people who worked in their homes. So he would assist his clients at times with... You're saying with even small things, like contractual relations? He said no detail was too small, because everything that affected how they lived and how they managed their life was something that he felt he was... If they wanted to be responsible for, to make sure that the contract, so that if you had to fire someone, it wouldn't come back to sue you, or if that's... Okay. Okay, so Mr. Black, Mr. Werner, Mr. Johnson, who else? Okay. What's the name of the woman from the choir? Oh, go ahead. This one is Jess Staley. Yeah, I do know Jess. Who's that? He was at Movin's Standing, and at Barclays. Do you know whether he and Mr. Upsen had a relationship? Well, not a physical one. I didn't suggest it. No, I'm saying a relationship in the broadest sense of word. Business, personal, both. Yes, both. Okay, and do you know when they met? No, I...no, I don't know when they met. But you can time it, but I don't know if you can. No, I don't know. So, but what was the nature of their relationship as far as you know? I think they were friends, and I think that they were business partners. Well, partners, too strong of word, but they worked. They did business together. So, did you...again, I want to stay focused on the time when you were the most involved in his life. The early 90s through... And the beginning of the 2000s. Yes. Did you...so we talked about four people? There's more. Were there more? Oh, yes, there was more. There was a lady whose name I just can't... Can I get my book? Maybe I've written down. Sure. My one, my dog. Actually, wouldn't really let me meet his clients. What book are you? What is that? I'd write some works for the meets. Okay, great. Is that right? No, that's fine. I just was curious what we're looking at. Okay. Not the birthday book. No, we're going to come to that, I'm sure. Yeah. Alright, I wrote down some things because I tried to meet... I just want you to understand my memory is not as good as it was because when I was in Brooklyn, I was in the shoe for almost two years. And I was on suicide watch for almost two years, which meant that they woke me up every 15 minutes for the entire time. And it really did affect my ability to... I understand. Okay. So you've taken some notes... I just made some names in the dark. Okay, so go ahead. And then you're happy to look at them. No, go ahead. Okay. Oh, well, funny. First two names. One is Wix, and the two is Staley, three is Leon Black. Okay. Glenn Dubin. What's that? Who's that? Eva Dubin's husband. Okay. What was there... I mean, if you can... Do you know about one that relationship? Whenever... Well, it wouldn't have been before they got married for sure. So we're going to start going to date that from wherever that was. And then Epstein was heavily involved with a high-bridge capital. And the financing or selling of high-bridge to J.P. Morgan. Okay. Glenn, has a Dubin, yeah? Okay, you're only looking for clients. All right. There's a woman... Well, he... There's a woman in Ohio. I just can't think of her name, but they will... I tried to remember it yesterday and I got them. So this is a good thing, like, you know, as you think of things, write it down. And if they have any other names, they'll ask you. Right. Yeah, don't force it out. So you'll have time to think about this, especially today, this afternoon overnight. But you can find them, I mean, if you basically find a billionaire, a female... So the woman in Ohio who's wealthy... And we'll be able to identify her yourself, because she had the largest client painting that was huge, so you can find her, because it'll be in the museum. So that was one of Mr. Epstein's clients. She was one of Mr. Epstein's clients as well. Yes. Okay. Who else? Well, I think that there was people, other people, that he would like assist. I know that he helped Lynn Forrester, who became Linda Rothschild, she'll deny it, and she has, but she... She got it. And when you say help, the same... Well, help a business or what will help? No, no. I don't know where he did for her. I know he helped her financially. Her husband was the controller of New York, so... But I don't... Again, I'm not inside this business, but he would have... His... This notion that he black-black-maleed men... We don't really have to go there, that he wasn't a businessman, and that everything he did was afroed or a funk. I don't believe that, to be true. Why? Sorry? So you say you don't believe it to be true, but show me why I think that. Just from what I know you've been talking about it, that he was very... He was very conscientious, he was very good at math, he was... He was a politician who was clients, but yes, you're right. There's allegations of black-male, or also that there was some level of fraud involved in what he did, and you don't believe it. Why do you say that? Well, let me rephrase that. If there was fraud, I never saw it. Would I saw or would I felt... When I... His... I ran out of this. I mean, I didn't... I was responsible for the staff. People worked. There were lawyers. There were accountants. I never heard him... I never felt anything... I don't know. Ike. Did you ever see him... Black male of a client? Did you ever see him black male of a friend or an acquaintance? No. Well, so... I think when folks talk about black male, and we can talk about a... Sorry, but... We can talk about that now. There are a lot of allegations about him, which we should talk about, and we can do that now. And the fact that he abused young women. Yes. Full stop. Okay. Which means the way that I'm defining abuse, as has been... Why the reporter is that... That he would cause young women in high school to be recruited to come to his house and give him massages. And as part of that, he would sexually abuse them. Yes. So, I want to talk about that. But as it relates to black male, the question is whether you're aware of any time. That any of the individuals we're talking about, and we'll talk about others, receive massages from women who are under 18, or may have been under 18, and that whether there was any sexual assaults or sexual contact between any of these people, and those masseuses, which would have allowed then Mr. Epstein potentially to blackmail them and say, you have to continue to work with me, or you have to give me money, or else I'm going to tell the world that you did this. Right. I think this is a really good place to start with how this story began. Okay. So, even... Let's assume that that premise is correct, that he was doing that, and he was going to tell everybody, you know, going to say, oh, you know, you have inappropriate relations with an or under-educal. If you don't have a video, photographic evidence, I'm not sure that even the FBI would take that book, maybe today, but certainly not back, and we'll take that seriously. So, you have to have something to say, hey, you know, look, I've got this video of you doing terrible things, and you need to. So, I built those houses, many of them. I decorated those houses. I put the electricians in for the wiring. I never wired North Shore a single house that had any type of inappropriate, let's say, video surveillance, and I'll define that for you. In appropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom, in a bedroom, in any private area of a home. In a room where there were massages given. In appropriate, I would say I would define appropriate surveillance to be the front door of a house, or potentially as in 71st Street, the physical plant. Anywhere else would be grotesque. So, I just want to come back to, I know, I'm just hopefully staying in the obvious, and you say the houses, you're talking about his New York brownstone. You're talking about the island in the Caribbean. Yes. You're talking about the residents in Palm Beach, and you're talking about the ranch in New Mexico. Yes. Anywhere else? Paris. And in Paris. And so, I'm playing, I saw some ridiculous things with the playing that was about my dinner. I didn't hire any electricians on the playing. Unequivically. Unequivically, from what you know, and you only know what you know. I only know what I know. But from what you know, you do not believe a camera exists, or a video camera, or a camera that takes pictures inside any of his residences. Correct. So, even the appropriate cameras that you just talked about, which would be kind of exterior security cameras, did you know whether there were any cameras that you're aware of inside any of the locations? Never. With one exception. Okay. What's the exception? The exception is Palm Beach. Okay. And the reason, so in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen. He noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase. And he called in the Palm Beach police. And they, the Palm Beach police, installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase. Where was that, do you remember? At his desk. So, the house on the ground floor was, he had a desk, sort of, in a corner. There was that camera. I think there was another camera. I think there were two or maybe three cameras. I believe only on the ground floor, wherever he may have had. Maybe he had another office in the cabana. There may be a camera there. When was this? I'm not looking for an exact date. What time period are you thinking about when you see that? 2003. I think I can date it for you precisely, actually. 2003, I'm pretty firm on my date. I like to be firm because John Alesi, the partner, was fired in the end of 2002 and he was the thief. So, aside from law enforcement installing a camera to try to catch somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein, you're not aware of any cameras at the island. No. Sorry, just so we record it. Oh, sorry. Sorry. That's okay. You were not in your head, no. So, what about... No cameras anywhere outside of possibly things that I would consider myself. I would consider normal. So, the garage gate, something like that, a front door. Outside, like security cameras. Security cameras. And there were cameras inside in the 71st street that did the plant, the physical plant, because it was a commercial building. So, you had the whole... That's a real thing, that's a commercial building. And there were cameras... There was one camera on the front door, internal, from the internal that did the front door, as I recall. But there would no other cameras inside the house. Did you ever... How about photographs? Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein or anybody around him take pictures of anybody in compromising positions with women or with anybody? Yeah. Did you ever hear... When you were present for conversations that Mr. Epstein was having or others were having, anybody accused him of blackmailing them or trying to extort them because of something Mr. Epstein knew. No. There have been... And you... In the discovery you got in the New York case. Yes. And in the civil cases that you've been part of associated with Mr. Epstein, have you ever been given or have been ever been told that video exists like what we're talking about or photos were taken that were compromised? So in both of those, I didn't receive no pictures or anything from the civil case. But in the criminal case I received videos of Epstein talking to women and stuff like that. I did get those. I also saw binders, photographs of women... Entertaining. I never saw... I don't know how old some of these women were. I would definitely some of the victims from Palm Beach, the photographs of them in... In those photographs were the victims that were photographed. Were there any of the people you've talked about? Were there men with the victims or were they just photographs of the victims? There was no men with these pictures. There was no client of his with those pictures. They would be standalone for one to the better world like modeling shots. If you were... I don't know. Pictures that Epstein had with the girls are not Epstein with the clients and the girls. Did you... I understand you said you got those in the discovery. Did you know those pictures like that existed? Right now I'm talking about photographs of victims or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein had on his computer or wherever he had them. Did you know that those photos existed before you got them in discovery? Some of them, absolutely, because they were in his house. Some of these pictures were on his credenza or whatever. Some pictures I've never seen before. I mean there was... I've never seen some of them. Some of them I had. Some of them I had. Did you... So you're right. And I accept that having video or photographs of somebody famous or powerful in a compromising position would be good blackmail. But so separate... Putting aside what you've said about the fact that you don't know of any existence of those, did you observe over the years the folks were talking about or others which we can talk about? Getting massages from young women. So I just... I think it's really helpful to understand a few things that has been missed in this whole...miss you guess. That's a technical term. I'll look it up later. Go ahead. I thought about this a lot and I've given it some... So this is the benefit of... Some benefit of what I saw and some benefit of what I never think. So just for clarity's sake. I think... I just want to say for the record that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of... Not all but some of what he's accused of. And I'm not here to defend him in any respect what I don't want to. And I don't think he requires nor deserves any type of protection or for me in any way to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do. So there's that. However... The man I met... And the man he became... I believe that there is a progression. And I don't think that the man I met is the man that he became. I believe he became that man over a period of time. Now we can discuss anything you want and I'll tell you everything I know. But... I think somebody who has an interest... However you define that in underage people is obviously someone who is unwell. But I don't think that you wake up one day and you start doing what he's accused of. I think this is something that you... The develop. Or you progress to... I think. Before you get into all that, let's answer the top line question and then get into it. Okay, the top line question is... Did you ever see any of these people with underage women? No, no. So the reason I'm saying that is not to avoid that question. But it's because by the time when you're talking in the 90s, I don't think he was there. That description, I think that this is what you're talking about is a later version. No, I understand that. And I do want to talk. I think you need to separate the periods of time. Sure. And this one of the things that was definitely missing in my trial and definitely missing from the narrative is this notion, this everything happened and he was always been, no, I don't believe that to be true. So that's fine and I do want to talk about that. I'm not pushing that away. I'm just putting it aside for a moment. What Mr. Epstein did and frankly what you did or are accused of doing is one thing that we'll talk about. But what right now what I want to understand is whether one of the ways that Mr. Epstein, or friend of his clients or took care of them or somewhat say blackmail them, was by encouraging them to have, to interact with women underage or not. So I think in the 90s he may have encouraged them but these were people who were in the 20s or 30s. So he would have a masseuse and we did male and female by within the 90s that's never been discussed. Both in yoga and everything there were men as well as women. And so if you would travel and I can show them to you, I highlighted them on the flight record so you could see that they really were men. But we're also there. He would say would you like to do yoga with Tito or would you like a massage with this one? But they would be in the late 20s and professional masseuse. So I think there's a distinction. And I want to talk about actual individuals here but and I understand the distinction between somebody who's an adult and someone who's underage. But even with somebody who's an adult, did you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that, whether it's a client or somebody else? I certainly witnessed him. So if he was staying with him and you had a massage that he would often travel with a masseuse. He would say would you like a massage and he could do that. Yes. But would you or him or anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual contact? I never did. No. So meaning and then coming back to the blackmail issue. There's nothing wrong with getting a massage. Of course not. Especially if somebody's obviously an adult and a masseuse. I'm not equippling with that. My question is that there's a lot of accusations that one of the way Mr. Maxwell, I'm sorry Mr. Epstein was successful, was through this idea of blackmail. And yes, young women and is a crime, children are a crime. But even women over the age of 18, if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or whomever to get massages and have inappropriate sexual contact with the masseuses, that's a separate issue. Maybe slightly nuanced, but did you ever know him to do that? I never did absolutely. I never heard him. I asked someone. I never heard that. I never know. In the entire time I was with him or friends with him or had anyone, no one ever reported to me or came to me and said that anything inappropriate happened or was upset by never sort of, never sort of, ever. And when you say no one reports me meaning like the masseuses or any of the house staff or the clients or the clients themselves. Never. Okay. So, so let's, again, I want to stay and coming back now to what you were talking about a moment ago with Mr. Epstein's kind of progression or getting worse. Just staying within the 90s. What role, what role did you have or what did you observe, which are two different issues, but both important. With respect to recruiting masseuses to come to either, I guess, Palm Beach or to travel or eventually in Mexico. What role did you have in that? He asked me to find masseuses. Sit again. He asked me if I could find him. No. Like as part of, like you said, you were as general mattress. As part of all your duties, that was one of them. And I did do that. So, the first person I believe that I introduced him to as a masseuse with somebody called. She was, I don't know, late, late 20s, professional masseuse. Was this something that happened early on in your relationship or, again, I know we're talking about the 90s, but are we talking about early 90s or is this later on? So, in terms of massage, I am, I have a lot of injuries. I do a lot of dangerous sports. And I have had multiple serious accidents and walk without any, to, lameness because of physical therapy and massage. I've done to me is a very, it's medicinal for me. So, exiting whatever his massage situation, whatever he loved massage. And if I met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or masseur, I introduced him. And he, because I got that many asked me if I did and I said yes. And that's, I'm pretty sure that would have, well, I don't remember. 93, 92, from the beginning. So, so go ahead. So then what happens over the next, you know, like there's been, there's a ton of writing and a ton of, I guess, testimony as well. But also public reporting about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort that you were a part of, that he was a part of, and others to try to find more and more masseuses. What is that, is that true and what role did you have in that? That is partially true. Okay. So, it is true that I found masseuses and he became more insistent. He, he, he, he liked knew all the time. He got bored. So, he would be bored with that masseuse and he would say, find me a new masseuse. I am the entire opposite. I find someone that I like. I stay with them. I'm like, I don't want new. He would drive for new. So, that is true. And in my effort to find them, I would go to massage that spars, like legitimate spars, not, we're not talking, you know, funky ones. So, and I, if I got a massage from somebody in a spa that was, I liked, I liked, I asked them if they would do home visits, if they said yes. I would ask them to come to the house and they would see if you liked them or not. But these were people who weren't in spars. I never, ever checked by age and I never checked by credentials. I never asked for a certificate. What, but just to be clear, you never thought anybody was under it. I never crossed up. I never, no, that was never my, that was never a drive. What, what did you know at the time about Mr. Epstein requiring masseuses to naked or require masseuses, masseuses to either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein. Or to be there, Mr. Epstein masturbated or things like that. And again, I'm asking you about a 15 year period or whatever, 10 year period. So, I appreciate it's a very broad question. So, answer it in a way that, you know, addresses what you've been charged with doing, but also what's been said about you. Okay, so I don't, the 90s, I don't think that I ever thought that never would cross my mind. I'm not sure that I thought about that in those contexts at all until his arrest and those papers came out. But I believe the subject of the question that you're asking me, I believe, started in the 2000s. To, in the 2000s time period? Yes, 2000s. Why do you, why do you think like, what, what in your mind makes you think that that's the time that it started? I think because in December of 2001, he met... And I think, was responsible for that in its entirety. And the reason I believe that. So this, she was a self-confessed, having been sexually abused as a young girl and was trained, her words I'm quoting now, not mine, in all the arts of whatever that is. And she was a sex program by a man called Ron Appinger, who was her PEMP from when she was 14, actually, or 15, and in her book describes him training her to be what every man wants in all its manners, and that's her period. I believe, I know then what happened was that she, when she first started to see him, or first came into his orbit as his excuse or whatever, she was engaged to be married and wearing an engagement ring and was living with her fiance. She broke up after a few months with her fiance and took up with the local drug dealer. So let's say after four or five months of in the time period when she was seeing Epstein, let's say, when now May June of 2002, or was it to that? Whenever she hits the, whatever that is, that's 2000, I think it's 2000, sorry, I think so when she met him December of 2000, so then you go through, I don't remember, you'll have to look. I'm not holding you to the exact date. No, I mean I'm just trying to, I'm giving the, so then I think, so she takes up with the local drug dealer and she becomes drug-y drug-y. Like, you know her drug is a little bit, I live with a lot, until I see they become even more unreliable than normal. And at some point, she's now working somewhere else, he stopped seeing her because he doesn't like people who do drugs. And I think that not seeing her lasted five or six months and in that period of time she got arrested for theft and she had a warrant out for her arrest. Now they saw peace together because this piece I didn't know. She then called Epstein to help avoiding the warrant for her arrest and he sent her to Thailand to get the massage therapy license. This is the bit that I guess, this is the bit that I extrapolated in the period of time from when she came back to when she left. He asked her to replace herself as his masseuse or whatever, whatever she was doing. And she brought the first replacement for her that would have been one of the accusers, in my case I think, would have been... And then everyone who came, subsequent... Simple things if she wasn't the first, I don't know. Everyone, every single person who came to his house came through and her boyfriend Tony and then whoever else wanted me to. And that is how it started. So before Tony, Tony figure out... I said before her, so now going back into the 90s, you don't believe that Mr. Epstein was abusing masseuses underage. Or overage. I'm using abuse in the broadest sense of word because I'm assuming that you said that you have no idea over the years. You always assume the masseuses were overage. So what I'm talking about abuse, I'm even talking about an adult masseuse who comes in to give a massage and is told to take off their clothes, told her not to get paid. And then I kept her clothes, basically suggested they had to watch him masturbate. But the thing that's been publicly said about what he did, for now I'm not to assume it's any adult or young or underage women for that. I'm saying... I'm going to think that that would have been a habit. Okay. I'm going to say that the massage game would have happened. And I think that means that... I'm sure that he didn't suddenly start having relations with masseuses in 2002. I'm sure he must have had relations with masseuses. Who knows when? But you're saying as far as... I used the word abuse. You're saying that as far as you sit here today, you would describe that more as consensual. Meaning the masseuse did this willingly. I saw him with lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So based on my observation, I don't think that if you are being raped as... Now he's like this prolific. I just can't imagine why you would... It's not that you observed at the time. Not what I observed at the time. No. We're going to spend a little... We're going to spend more time on this issue because I think it's important. But just going back to the question that I started with in this area, which is that it ties into the black male issue. So we talked about people that were as clients. And you've mentioned the President Clinton and then early on... Oh, I never said he was a kind. I did not say so. I'm saying, you talk about his clients. Oh, okay, right. Put this client off the side. And then you mentioned some other people who mentioned President Clinton. Yes. President Trump early on, who were other famous slash politicians, who were other individuals in Mr. Epstein's life during that time period? So the early 90s. And I do it in the 90s. Should we just... Yes. Okay. Congress met Millen. So again? But Millen. Okay. Henry Wresowski, who was the Provost of Harvard. I don't think. Sure. You're looking at your notes. Yes. Right. Right. Joe Pagano, Jerry Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lippa, Dan Abramsson, I don't know if in the 90s Tom Pritzker, Ace, Jimmy Kane, Lurinary, I mean, there were... What about the Royal Family? No, he didn't know them in the 90s. What about the...what about Prince Andrew? I didn't know him in the 90s. Oh well. Is that right? I wouldn't have there. Sorry. Sorry. So I don't want you to have to worry about the exact dates. You're not positive about that, but you don't have a specific recollection of that being in the 90s. Yeah. Okay. I can date it for you, I think. But I can't give you that. That's okay. That's fine. So with respect to... We'll take a break in a minute to get some food. But just with respect to Mr. with respect to the individuals you just talked about. So again, focus on the 90s. And so the people that I'm talking about right now, and we might add some names later. So we're talking about the clients that he worked with, which you've mentioned several of. And I know that there wasn't exhaustive, but you've mentioned several of them. And then the kind of what I call famous friends, but the prominent individuals that were in his life in the 90s. Did any stick out in your mind as having received massages? Henry was also received a massage. And then why does that stick out in your memory? Because I saw him in a bathroom that's on the first street, and he had received a massage. He told me. And do you know whether that... Whether the masseuse was naked during that massage? I wouldn't have any. Do you know whether he... I doubt it. He was like in his 80s. I doubt it. He was like in his 80s. Okay, but do you know... Not what he's saying. Oh, minced meat. How minced? So again? A minced meat. It's another person. Do you know whether, for example, President Clinton never received a massage? I don't believe he did. And what makes you say you don't believe he did? Well, because I don't know. That's a good question. The time that Epstein and President Clinton spent together the only time that they had. The only time, I believe. Well, obviously they traveled. There was that, you know, they came, they went on the plane 26 times, all of it. That would be one journey. So they spent time on the plane together, and I don't believe there was ever a massage on the plane. So that would have been the only time that I think that President Clinton could have even received a massage, and he didn't. Because I was there. And you mentioned that early... In the very beginning of the conversation, you mentioned President Trump in the early night. Yes. So did you observe, as far as President Trump and his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein? Well, I just want to say for my relationship with President Trump, relationship to Big Work, but I just want to say that I met him, or I believe I may have, because of my father in the 90s. So my father liked him very much. And he really liked his wife as well, because he would both check us back in. And as far as I'm concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me. And I just want to say that I find... I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the President now. And I like him. And I've always liked him. So that is the sum substance of my entire relationship. What about Mr. Epstein's relationship with him? I don't know how they met, and I don't know how they became friends. I certainly saw them together, and I remember the few times I observed them together, that they were friendly. I mean... Was that in friendly? Social settings, or was that in private settings? I believe I only ever saw them in social settings. I don't recall any private settings. Did you ever... have you ever been to... Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach? I have. In what time period are you thinking about when you say yes? I don't remember when the President purchased Mar-a-Lago, so from whenever it turned into a club, I went there, and I was... Loved getting help. Did you go there alone or with Mr. Epstein? Mostly alone. I know where. Sometimes I went there, I was throwing an event maybe once or twice. And do you know where the Mr. Epstein ever went there? I believe he did, but again... We really... He didn't... Taint me with him all the time, so he would go and... Oh, right. He never... Well, he did. Sometimes it's time, but he would go alone. I think he would maybe go himself to the spa. I certainly did. Did you ever observe President Trump receiving massage? Never. Did you ever observe... You said that you... I mean, have you seen the... There's photographs, public photographs of Mr. Epstein and President Trump together. Yeah. And there's photographs of... I think you're in some of the photographs as well. Those all appear to be social settings. Yes. That's my memory, if there was social settings. I don't know... Epstein's... He had whatever the nature of the President's friendship, if you will, or however you want to define that with Epstein. I was never witness. I think they were friendly, like people are in social settings. I don't... I don't think they were close friends, or... I certainly never witnessed the President in any... I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance. I actually never saw the President in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the President in any inappropriate setting. In any way, the President was never inappropriate with anybody. In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman, in all respects. When's the last time you think you saw in person, President Trump? It's been a long time. I've probably not... some time in the... beginning... mid-2000s maybe, and it would only have been a social setting, as far as I recall. And did you ever hear Mr. Epstein, or anybody, say that President Trump had done anything inappropriate with masseuses or with anybody in your world? Absolutely, never. In any context. Do you know whether masseuses from Mar-a-Lago spa ended up giving massages to... private massages to Mr. Epstein? I'm not asking for what you may have read, but from... at the time, from your personal knowledge, you know what that's true. I don't... I don't recall. Is it possible, yes? But I don't remember... I don't remember that. So I don't want to... I don't recall that, but it's possible. Do you have recollection of you ever recruiting masseuses from... Mar-a-Lago spa to give... to go give a private massage to Mr. Epstein? I've never recruited masseuses from Mar-a-Lago for that, as far as I rip. I can't ever recollect data. Okay, so what I think we should do now, it's about 12-15. We'll take a break, and we will... Come back, and we'll be... Copy.